John Finer (7:50)

It is standard procedure to make for sure that the enemy is neutralized. It is not murder. When Pete Hegseth and the Department of War double tap a narcotics ship that is shipping drugs that kill Americans to America, it is not that at all. I'm here at the Pentagon reporting.

Rachel Maddow (8:10)

Thank you, Lance, for bringing your extensive expertise on military rules of engagement to the Pentagon. Now, despite that being the new Pentagon press corps, the free press is still getting massive, massive scoops nearly every day out of the Pentagon. Late tonight, the Wall Street Journal reported yet another devastating scoop about Pete Hegseth. This scoop centers on Admiral Alvin Holsey, who was the commander overseeing U.S. forces in the Caribbean where the majority of these strikes have happened. And now we already knew that back in the middle of October, Hegseth announced that Halsey would be retiring early, just a year into what's typically a three year tenure. But now the Wall Street Journal is helping us understand why. According to two Pentagon officials, Hegseth asked Admiral Halsey to step down, a de facto ouster. That was the culmination of months of discord between Halsey and Hegseth. And that discord intensified when Halsey had initial concerns about the legality of the lethal strikes Hegseth was ordering on alleged drug boats in the Caribbe, per former officials. Now, I should say that Nemes now has not independently confirmed that reporting. And for his part, Admiral Halsey has not commented. His retirement doesn't actually start until December 12th, so he likely can't say much, at least until then. But when taken together, all of this new reporting raises a glaringly obvious point about Pete Hegseth. Because for weeks now, Trump and Hegseth have been up in arms about a video made by six Democrats and former members of the military or intelligence agencies. A video where those Democrats reminded service members that they can and should refuse to follow unlawful orders. Heath has even threatened to court martial Senator Mark Kelly for participating in that video. Now, the irony here, of course, is that Hexseth is now under scrutiny for the very thing those Democrats warned us about. I mean, not only do we have new reporting that the Trump administration's own lawyers think These strikes were likely unlawful, as well as this new reporting from the Wall Street Journal that the top commander in the region was concerned about the legality of these operations. But CNN has also uncovered a video from 2016 in which Hegseth himself says that the military shouldn't obey illegal orders and that there should be consequences when somebody commits a war crime. And to show you how similar Hegseth's comments are to the Democratic lawmakers, he and other Republicans are now calling these seditious six absurdly. We did a little editing, our amazing team of all of them into one piece. And when you watch those two videos spliced together, you'll see that their message flows well pretty seamlessly.

Jake Sullivan (10:38)

Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.

Rachel Maddow (10:42)

You can refuse illegal orders.

Brendan Buck (10:44)

You must refuse illegal orders.

Jake Sullivan (10:46)

That's why the military said it won't follow unlawful orders from their commander in chief.

Rachel Maddow (10:51)

No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution.

Jake Sullivan (10:55)

If you're doing something that is just.

Rachel Maddow (10:57)

Completely unlawful and ruthless, then there is a consequence for that.

Jake Sullivan (11:02)

We know this is hard and that it's a difficult time to be a public servant.

Rachel Maddow (11:05)

But whether you're serving in the CIA, the army or Navy, the Air Force, there's a standard, there's an ethos, there's.

Jake Sullivan (11:11)

A belief that we are above what so many things that our enemies or others would do. Your vigilance is critical.

Rachel Maddow (11:17)

And know that we have your back.

Jake Sullivan (11:19)

Because now more than ever, there have to be consequences for abject war crimes.

Rachel Maddow (11:24)

The American people need, we need you to stand up for our laws, our.

Jake Sullivan (11:28)

Constitution, and who we are as Americans.

Rachel Maddow (11:33)

Joining me now are Jake Sullivan and John Finer. Jake is the former White House National Security Advisor. John is the former Deputy National Security Adviser. They're also the co host of the brand new podcast the Long Game. And there's literally no one I'd rather talk to on a night like this. Also, their podcast is exactly the way they talk about all of the issues that you really want to know how people who are national security experts talk about. So it's a good listen. All right, it's great to see you both. I have about a million questions for you guys, but I'm just going to start with these boat strikes because they're on the minds of so many people out there. There are, of course, a lot of holes in this story the administration is telling right now. We're learning a lot thanks to the excellent reporting of a lot of journalists out there. But Jake, let me just start with you because I'M sure you've been consuming all of it. What's the what sticks out to you the most about the story?

Jake Sullivan (12:22)

Well, there are really two elements that stick out to me. One is the apparent lawlessness of taking strikes against people who are essentially in extremists who present no threat. And we'll get to the bottom of exactly what happened. But that element of it is why you actually have not just Democrats, but Republicans on the Hill extremely concerned and not just lining up behind the administration's talking points. But the second piece to me is that this is really a story about civil military relations, about the uniformed personnel feeling uncomfortable, feeling like they are being pressured in various ways, and frankly, feeling like they're being thrown under the bus. And that's going to have, I think, a larger negative impact on the ability of the United States military to respond effectively in crises. And if there is this kind of tension between the civilians and the military over at the Pentagon to that point.

Rachel Maddow (13:20)

And I mean, as you all know and our viewers know well, I mean, people have been serving for decades in the military who are currently being asked to do things that many of them are more than uncomfortable with. I mentioned this a little bit earlier in the show, but there was new reporting from the Wall Street Journal tonight about Admiral Halsey, who is an example of, I think, what you're talking about there, Jake. He oversees U.S. forces in the Caribbean. We already knew he was retiring back in October, which was kind of strange enough because he'd only been there for less than a year. But according to this new reporting, now we know that Hegseth basically pushed him out of the job. So, John, let me pose this one to you. What do you make of that? I mean, especially in the light of everything we've learned this week about these strikes and everything Jake just said, too.

John Finer (14:03)

Well, look, while I can't speak to the report, the truth will eventually come out. But I think the bigger point is that this administration came in quite early and replaced a number of senior general officers who, as you said, had been there in their roles and in earlier roles for a matter of decades, replaced almost all of the uniformed JAG officers, the lawyers who make the decisions about what is above the line and what is below the line in terms of the legality of military operations, and then are trying to claim they needed to do that, ostensibly because they wanted people to who were on the team, on board with their approach to the world. But in this case, the decisions were made by the uniformed military officers themselves. I think those two arguments are going to be very hard for them to square. And it's going to create a tension between the civilians who run all these agencies and the uniformed military who carry out these orders and these duties that is going to redound on the Hill and in other places.

Rachel Maddow (14:59)

Yeah, I expect the conversations with the Hill and these members of the military are going to shed a lot of light on what's happening here. One of the dangers, and you've touched on a fair amount of this already of this administration that I find hard to kind of dig through sometimes, is this effort to paint behavior as normal when it's really anything but normal, especially the interworkings of agencies, the national security team, others within the government. And so I just want to ask you, Jake, just about the specifics of that double strike that's at the center of this controversy. I mean, Pete Hexseth claimed he walked out of the room after the first strike to attend a meeting. I'm not expecting. You don't know all the details of that, of course, but just recently, walk us through what the secretary of Defense is typically doing when a military strike is happening.

Jake Sullivan (15:44)

As you said, I can't speak to what actually happened with the current secretary, but what I will tell you is that secretaries I have seen in action, who are overseeing significant military action, especially in a case where it was the initial phase of military action, so you're really focused on whether this is effective and is achieving the objective. They are there in the command center at the Pentagon, watching from the start of the mission to the end of the mission, and they are reporting back to the president what is happening, so that if there are any concerns or anything needs to be flagged up the chain, it can be done so. But, Secretary Austin, I can tell you, whenever there was a mission of consequence like this one would have been there from the beginning to the end, because he would have seen that as his responsibility. And I watched him do that on several occasions over the course of the time that I was in the scene.

Rachel Maddow (16:37)

Not surprising at all. And that's helpful to understand what happens typically in the room, because sometimes that's lost. John, the other part of this, of course, is that Secretary Hegseth has also very clearly tried to pass the blame onto the admiral, who he says actually gave the order for the second strike. I mean, that admiral is, is meeting tomorrow with members of Congress. What questions would you have for him?

John Finer (17:00)

Yeah, look, I think the tweet that was sent out by Secretary Hegseth, you know, which gave a veneer almost of trying to endorse the military, endorse the commander who he says made this decision, but quite clearly trying to pass the buck and pass the blame to somebody who in the chain of command is below. Secretary Hegseth is going to go down in the annals of covering yourself by throwing somebody else under the bus. And so I think there are going to be real questions asked about what precise operational guidance was given by the secretary of defense, by the president himself, who also has tried to distance himself from this order. And there is just a profound lack of clarity about how all of this transpired. And you know, as we've said, it's not just Democrats who are asking these questions, it's Republicans to which is going to make it much harder for the administration to portray this as partisan in any way. They're going to probably have to answer these questions sooner rather than later.

Rachel Maddow (17:55)

I've read all of these stories so many times and the details are so conflicting. I think that's what we're all experiencing a bit publicly. Let me ask you, Jake, just take us back in sort of the Situation Room or just the observation of a military strike like the ones we've seen. I mean, you've both worked for multiple presidents. President Trump, as Feiner just referenced, claims he didn't know about the second strike. That to me feels very shocking. I wasn't the one advising or giving information to presidents on this sort of thing. But what did you make of that? I mean, I think President Biden, President Obama would have demanded to know the exact details of what was happening. But what did you make of that claim by Trump?

Jake Sullivan (18:34)

Look, the typical way that an operation like this would unfold from the perspective of the White House is obviously the operators are responsible. So the Pentagon would be running the operation, but they would have an open line, secure line, either by video or by voice to the White House. And we would be monitoring it from there and we would be getting reports beginning, middle and end of the operation and then brief that to the president so that we could say to the president, this operation is complete. Here is what happened. The operation was a success or. Or the operation didn't fully achieve its objectives, but to give a comprehensive report when all was said and done. So what is surprising a bit is that somehow the most senior leaders didn't see it all the way through and then didn't get it all the way briefed up to the president. But of course, all this will come out in the wash. What I can tell you is how this normally works. And I'm not just saying this was true in the last administration. But President Obama, I'm sure President Bush and Republican predecessors as well, is you see the operation through to the end and then give a full accounting to the president of exactly what happened.

Rachel Maddow (19:43)

I mean, I was in the Oval Office plenty of times where President Biden was looking for you for updates on different operations at a variety of time where he was asking for them himself. John, let me ask you, let's turn to the Signalgate report because it will be officially released tomorrow, of course, but there's been a ton of reporting out there that the IG report concludes that Hagseth put troops in danger. I think we obviously we knew a lot of the reporting from earlier this year, but we're talking about the military here and how the military is dealing with this moment. What's your reaction to that, those findings from the report?

John Finer (20:18)

Well, look, having seen the report, obviously we'll read it very carefully when and if an unclassified version is made public. But you know, the impressions I have of that entire period are when you're talking about the use of military force, most serious, most sensitive decision that a president can make, that decision, that deliberation, the substance of that conversation should only take place in spaces that are secure for that conversation, whether that's the Situation Room, the Oval Office, as you just mentioned. Sure, people use Signal or other messaging apps to coordinate about logistics of when a meeting might take place place. But to conduct the entire substance of a meeting as it seems was the case in this instance over a non secure messaging app is not something I've ever seen. And not surprising to me that this has captured the interest of an inspector general and others.

Rachel Maddow (21:11)

It's another place where I expect there's going to be tons more reporting. Jake, if either you or John or anyone who worked for you accidentally texted war plans to report her, I mean, what, what would have happened?

Jake Sullivan (21:23)

Man, when I saw that they had added a reporter to the Signal chain, my first thought was we always in our lives worry about sending an email to the wrong recipient. One thing I never worried about was the idea that we'd be conducting Principals Committee meetings by signal. We wouldn't do that. And I never once saw a cabinet secretary text attack plans of this kind of sensitivity. So it was quite striking to me. And you know, obviously it made a huge splash for a good reason because people saw how just out of the norm this kind of activity was. And that's what it seems like the inspector general is ultimately finding here. But as John said, we'll see what the report has to say.

Rachel Maddow (22:05)

You even had to leave your Apple Watch everything outside of the Situation Room any meeting you ever attended. So it's just, just shocking. Every reminder of this. Jake Sullivan, John Finer for more of these conversations and all their insights, you just have to listen to their podcast. Thank you both so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.

Jake Sullivan (22:21)

Thank you.

Rachel Maddow (22:23)

House Democrats just got their hands on never before seen footage of Epstein island and they just got their hands on new bank records. Congressman Jamie Raskin is standing by and I have a lot of questions. I'm sure you do too. We'll be right.

Rachel Maddow (22:43)

Thanks to TikTok ads, I was able.

John Finer (22:44)

To open up a business with my childhood friend and even hire employees. My name is Julian and I am one of the founders of the Snacks Lab.

Rachel Maddow (22:51)

We are an exotic snack company.

John Finer (22:52)

We import snacks from all over the world. We had over a hundred thousand dollars in sales from our TikTok ads in the first month.

Rachel Maddow (22:58)

So our orders went from five a.

John Finer (23:00)

Day to over 250 orders a day.

Rachel Maddow (23:02)

You definitely have to use TikTok ads.

Jake Sullivan (23:04)

TikTok for business is helping owners like you reach new customers every day. Head over to getstarted.TikTok.com TikTokapps come to.

Rachel Maddow (23:13)

DSW for the shoes. Stay for the fun. Because let's be honest, if shoe shopping isn't fun, are you even doing it right? So go ahead, try something new. Try something different, good different. Try something that feels like you, you know, the real you. And then definitely brag about it later. Because at dsw, you've got unlimited freedom to play. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW stores or@dsw.com Let us surprise you.

Jake Sullivan (23:43)

Ms. Now presents season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading.

Jamie Raskin (23:50)

Democrats about how they plan to win.

Jake Sullivan (23:52)

Again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive caucus, Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress, and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki Season 2.

Jamie Raskin (24:09)

All episodes available now.

Rachel Maddow (24:22)

The only people inside the Trump administration who might actually be happy about the scrutiny Pete Hegseth is getting right now might be the folks at Trump's Justice Department. I mean, today Democrats on the House Oversight Committee released even more material related to Jeffrey Epstein without the DOJ's help. Today they released a trove of photos and video from Epstein's private island. They also announced that two major banks, JPMorgan Chase and Deutsche bank handed over records related to Epstein. This is likely only adding pressure to Trump's DOJ and his Attorney General, Pam Bondi, who are currently reviewing the contents of the Epstein files ahead of their legally mandated release later this month. And today, a group of bipartisan members of Congress asked Bondi for a status update on that release by Friday. We'll see what she provides. Hopefully not empty binders. Joining me now is Congressman Jamie Raskin. He's the ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee. It is always great to see. Let me just start with the release from the Oversight Committee. I mean, these new releases from your colleagues seem like an effort to get as much out to the public as they can, but also an effort to kind of increase the pressure on the Department of Justice to release all those files, especially since there's a bipartisan ask for an update from Pam Bondi. But what do you think?

Jamie Raskin (25:40)

It's a very concrete and vivid delivery of images, certainly that refocuses everybody on what exactly happened there and what was the nature of this, you know, massive billion dollar conspiracy to traffic young people, children.

Jamie Raskin (26:00)

So, you know, I'm hoping it's not going to re traumatize any of the victims and survivors. And I assume that, you know, they're taking precautions not to expose people, at least accidentally, to the images if they're not prepared to look at. But in any event, everybody in Congress is waiting for December 19th. We had a near unanimous vote, as you know, to release the complete Epstein file. We hope the Department of Justice is as hard at work getting these ready for delivery to Congress as they were when they deployed hundreds of FBI agents to go and look for Donald Trump's name in the files and through the various photographic and video images. But this is an act of Congress that is not optional. It's not discretionary. They can redact, of course, the names of the victims and any other material that might compromise their privacy. But otherwise, you know, outside of national security or images of child sex abuse, it's got to be released to Congress.

Rachel Maddow (27:08)

I want to ask you just also about some breaking news tonight because I have you here, so I'm going to take advantage of that. Emma now has learned that the DOJ is scheduled to try and re indict New York Attorney General Letitia James tomorrow. This is, of course, I mean, this comes after the original Tish James case and the James Comey case got thrown out on the grounds that Lindsey Halligan was not lawfully appointed. But it seems like, I guess, I mean, it seems like they're just going to bring a new case out of a different office in Virginia. But what do you make of all this? What's your reaction to that news?

Jamie Raskin (27:40)

Well, it's not the rule of law. It's a vendetta. You know, the initial indictments were thrown out because Lindsay Halligan was not lawfully appointed. So she was not acting with any legitimacy as U.S. attorney. And of course, that was just the original threshold objection to the indictment. There's a lot more there. These are selective prosecutions and indictments. These are vindictive indictments and prosecutions. There seems to be very little to them and they're riddled with other kinds of process errors. In the Comey case, of course, there was the almost comical mistake that the ultimate indictment was not the indictment that the grand jury actually saw, other than the chief grand the chief of the grand jury and Lindsey Halligan in her, you know, novice incompetence thought that that was okay. So, you know, I don't think that they really believe that these indictments can go very far. I know Donald Trump thinks so, but I don't think they really believe in them. But they're just trying to placate Trump. And it's an abusive legal process, no question.

Rachel Maddow (28:58)

And in the meantime, they're kind of putting all of these people through the wringer, which may be the point. Anyway, Congressman Jamie Raskin, I always appreciate you talking to me. Thank you so much for being here.

Jamie Raskin (29:09)

You bet.

Rachel Maddow (29:10)

Okay, we have to sneak in a very quick break, but coming up, another election, another reason for Republicans to totally freak out. This year, two of my favorite people to talk politics with are going to join me here at the table. Next.

Rachel Maddow (29:25)

Thanks to TikTok ads, I was able.

John Finer (29:26)

To open up a business with my childhood friend and even hire employees. My name is Julian and I am one of the the founders of the Snacks Lab.

Rachel Maddow (29:33)

We are an exotic snack company.

John Finer (29:35)

We import snacks from all over the world. We had over $100,000 in sales from our TikTok ads in the first month.

Rachel Maddow (29:40)

So our orders went from five a.

John Finer (29:42)

Day to over 250 orders a day. You definitely have to use TikTok ads.

Jake Sullivan (29:46)

TikTok for business is helping owners like you reach new customers every day. Head over to get started.TikTok.com TikTok ads.

Rachel Maddow (29:55)

Come to DSW for the shoes. Stay for the fun. Because let's be honest, if shoe shopping isn't fun, are you even doing it right? So go ahead, try something new. Try something different, good different. Try something that feels like you. You know the real you and then definitely brag about it later. Because at DSW you've got unlimited freedom to play. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW stores or@dsw.com Let us surprise you. Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the Briefing with Jen Psaki and more Voices you know and trust. Ms. Now is your source for news, opinion and the world. Learn more at Ms. Now.

Rachel Maddow (30:46)

Okay, ever since last night's special election in Tennessee, there is one quote I cannot stop thinking about. It was a quote from an anonymous House Republican who told Politico ahead of the election, quote, if our victory margin is single digits, the conference may come unhinged direct quote. Well, the results are in from last night's special election. With nearly all of the vote counted, Democrat Afton Bain lost the race with a narrow single digit margin in a district that Trump won by more than 20 points. And given that Anonymous I'm going to give them that anonymous Republican a little bit of credit because the Republican conference definitely appears to in places becoming unhinged. Republican anger at little Mike Johnson is growing with at least three Republican House lawmakers now publicly criticizing him. In an interview with the Wall Street Journal, Congresswoman Elise Stefanik went so far as to call the speaker an ineffective leader, saying, quote, he certainly wouldn't have the votes to be speaker if there was a vote tomorrow. There you go. Joining me now to talk about all of this is Faz Shakur, who is the senior advisor to Bernie Sanders and the director of the group More Perfect Union, and Brendan Buck, former senior advisor to House Speakers John Boehner and Paul Ryan. I'm sure you're going to see the election results differently and that's okay. That's why we're all here. Fez. There's lots of takes on this. Obviously Afton Bain ran unapologetic. As an unapologetic progressive, she came within single digits of a margin. There's lots of takes out there. But what's your take on what this means and what Democrats should take away from it and what they shouldn't?

Fez Shakur (32:10)

Well, one of the more exciting things is that turnout didn't actually drop in 2022. You have turnout remaining high. So that means people moved in their election outcomes and desires. And then you look at the breakdowns and many people have seen is that the county by county breakdown all shifted left with the lowest margin being only 7%. So if you say 7% of the least performing county moved left, the highest performing counties are up 20, 30%. So now what does that mean for the election cycle? So if you're in a Republican plus 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, you're all in jeopardy. And the opportunities now are about 45 plus or so seats that I would say are now competitive that weren't competitive or we wouldn't have thought were competitive before the special election.

Rachel Maddow (32:54)

We do have a while to go before the election. I mean, those numbers are not great for Republicans. I think there's a lot people are legitimately concerned about. But what do you think they should be doing now?

Brendan Buck (33:04)

Yeah, I don't think there's a whole lot of point in denying that it was really bad. And it's not just this one isolated race. We saw the governorships in New Jersey and Virginia. Things have been trending in a really bad way. And ultimately I think it comes down. Yes, there may have been some people that were persuaded. I think you could still look at that and say that was just a lot of Democrats turning out and maybe a lot of Republicans just staying at home. And that's the big fear for Republicans is when Donald Trump is on the top of the ticket, people don't show up. And I think that's what we're worried about. Republicans tend to have their head in the sand a little bit. And especially at the White House, the president does not seem to acknowledge that there are people who are concerned about the cost of living. And if that is what the election about and your president is denying that that's an issue, that's going to be a big problem. Because Democratic conjunction right there, when you're, when you're going into midterm, you're kind of just at the hip of whoever the president is. And there's only so much you can do in Congress. If the president is really unpopular and he's not responding to people's concerns, you're going to have a bad night. And if the president doesn't wake up and realize that he has a problem, he's probably going to find himself with the Democratic.

Rachel Maddow (33:59)

He's not really doing anything to make himself more popular. Let's talk about what's happening on the Hill because this is also people are very angry at Mike Johnson. Elise Tafonik, I'm she is very angry at Mike Johnson. Is this about his leadership of the caucus, the election results? As you said, it's not just last night. It's also the governor's races, special elections, what's it all about and what happens with all of this?

Brendan Buck (34:23)

Well, with Lisa Vonnik I think we have to remember that she blames Mike Johnson for spiking her appointment to be the ambassador to the United Nations. So she holds a grudge, and she holds it very well. And she's been sort of riding on him this entire time. Now, I will say being speaker of the House is hard. I worked for two of them. Being a Republican speaker of the House is hard, but being speaker, the job is mostly what I consider member management. That is making sure that your members are taken care of. Their personalities are tended to, but mostly that they are engaged, that they have something to work on. And I think that's what a lot of frustration is. They obviously kept the House out of session for almost two months. They passed the one big beautiful bill back in July and haven't done a whole lot since. So you have a lot of members who are kind of fed up. We have the majority. We have the trifecta. We should be doing lots of things. And there's just not a lot going on in the House. So they're getting restive, restless, and they're looking for they're going to lash out at some point when they have nothing to do. And that's what's the problem that he's got. And he's got to figure out some way to keep them focused.

Fez Shakur (35:13)

Yeah, I'm not going to cry a tear for Mike Johnson, but he's the outlet right now because they don't want to go after.

Rachel Maddow (35:17)

He's surprised.

Fez Shakur (35:18)

They don't want to go after Donald Trump. So Elise Stefanik would naturally be saying, hey, Donald Trump is leading us into the ditch politically. We are struggling. I'm running for governor and I can't find New Yorkers who want to support me. That would be what she would naturally say, but she's not going to do that. So instead, here comes Mike Johnson. He'll go beat up on him. The problem, of course, is you got led by a party that says, I don't even acknowledge that the affordability thing is a real crisis. And so to my mind, it's amazing to watch the Republican Party in this moment because you're kind of completely out of touch with housing costs going up, electricity costs going up, health care about to spike, as we know, in places that are very red. Wyoming is going to see one of the highest ACA affordability spikes here. And yet you look at the way in which they're dealing with it, and it's all political. It's a political problem. I'm going to just go talk about nonsense around car you know, affordability, energy, something, something, not deal with the fact are struggling and want something out of you. And as long as they maintain that road, Democrats can do quite well.

Rachel Maddow (36:13)

All right, Faz, Brendan, more to discuss. There's another government shutdown potentially coming, so we'll have to talk about that. Again, thank you both so much for being here. I appreciate it. Okay, Coming up today, Donald Trump continued to level outrageously racist attacks against Somali Americans in general. And my next guest, specifically Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, joins me here at the table to respond and talk more about it when we come back.

Rachel Maddow (36:48)

Today, Donald Trump doubled down on his disgustingly racist attacks against Somali immigrants. And to spare you some of the bile, I'm only going to just play a part of it. But I think some of this hateful rhetoric from the president of the United States States is worth bearing witness to.

Rachel Maddow (37:05)

Look, these Somalians have taken billions of dollars out of our country. They've taken billions and billions of dollars. They have a representative, Ilhan Omar. She shouldn't be allowed to be a congresswoman, and I'm sure people are looking at that. And she should be thrown the hell out of our country. It's a hellhole right now, and the Somali Somalians should be out of here. They've destroyed our country, and all they do is complain, complain, complain. Somalia is considered by many to be the worst country on earth. I don't know. I haven't been there.

Jake Sullivan (37:40)

I won't be there anytime soon, I hope.

Rachel Maddow (37:43)

But what Somalia, what the Somalian people have done to Minnesota is not even believable.

Rachel Maddow (37:53)

I mean, it's completely gross. It's racist. It's very weird at moments. And it also seems pretty clear that Trump's fixation with Somali immigrants is more about focusing attention elsewhere. At least that's part of it. I mean, on anything but his tanking approval ratings, maybe, or the job market getting worse as the cost of living continues to skyrocket, or Democrats doing better and better at the polls. And so to shift attention away from all of that, he picks a target, and he loves to do these targets. In this case, an entire group of people. And wouldn't you know, immediately after Trump attacked Somali immigrants in Minnesota, ICE was dispatched to the Twin Cities to conduct deportation roundups. But you know what else happened? And this is an encouraging piece of this? The people of Minnesota quickly organized and pushed back this morning. Dozens of people led by local unions rallied in freezing temperatures near the Minneapolis St. Paul Airport in support of Somali immigrants who live and work in their community and shouted Slow. Like when immigrant rights are under attack, we stand up and see some of the signs there as well. Joining me now is Minnesota Congressman Ilhan Omar. I heard you say this morning that his attacks on you are creepy, which I think is just a perfect description. I talked about it a little bit as a distraction. It's obviously racist. But why do you think he's doing it?

Ilhan Omar (39:13)

I mean, and I honestly mean it. It is a creepy obsession. You know, he talks about watching me all the time, which is actually very frightening to have that level of attention from somebody who should be focused on doing the business of the American people and not just creepily watching what one member of Congress is doing. But I think you were correct in saying this is a deflection. This is a way to distract us from the failures that he's having in his administration. You have a president where, you know, he promised to take care of affordability. Nothing has changed for the American people. He's only made it hard with tariffs. Border states like Minnesota are seeing farmers struggle because of the tariffs, businesses being dismantled because of the tariffs. You see him giving Argentina $40 billion while soybean farmers in Minnesota get that kind of bailout and are struggling to sell their goods. You see us investigating him right now and his secretary of defense for possible war crimes that they might have committed in.

Ilhan Omar (40:29)

The killings in the Caribbean. And so. And then obviously they have been the pedophile protection party when it comes to fighting hard to not release the Epstein files and fight for just justice for these incredibly heroic survivors. He knows he doesn't want to answer these questions about all of these failures that he's having. So what does he do? He finds a very small community in Minnesota and then, you know, threatens and targets them. But what we do know about Minnesotans is that we are resilient. What we do know about Minnesotans is that we watch out for one another. And what we do know about about Somali Americans in Minnesota is that overwhelming majority of us are citizens of this country. Our passport says we are nationals of the United States.

Rachel Maddow (41:20)

I mean, it is to your point. According to Census data, almost 58% of the Somalis in Minnesota were born in the United States. Of the foreign born Somalis in Minnesota, and a large majority, 87%, are naturalized U.S. citizens. And as I just noted, DHS, the.

Ilhan Omar (41:34)

West are documented Americans.

Rachel Maddow (41:36)

Exactly. And DHS is dispatched. I mean, this is what's one of the things that's so outrageous. ICE to Minneapolis, St. Paul and New Orleans to conduct immigration raids and essentially scare and terrorize Communities. I mean, first tell me, you know, have you been in touch with local leaders and organizers? What are you hearing from people on the ground there about this?

Ilhan Omar (41:58)

Yeah, I mean, local leaders have been very vocal. There was a press conference yesterday that was led by City Council member Jamal Osman. There was one today that was led by Senator Zainab Mahmoud, who's been incredible in organizing and making sure people understand what's happening and educate them in ways that they could show up for us. But we're also seeing the huge mobilization of our neighbors who are saying, not on my watch. When you come for them, you're also coming for us. What I have heard from few of the people who have been detained and questioned and obviously let go is that, you know, they're citizens of the United States. And so once they were able to show their passport or passport id, they were let go. And one of the things that, you know, has been so heartening is the fact that we did know this was coming. And so many of our community members order their passport IDs, have taken photocopies of their passport, have made sure all of their paperwork was easily accessible to them. Because when he said he was going after undocumented immigrants, we knew that that's not where he was going to stop, that he was eventually going to come. For those of us who are legal in this country, those of us who are citizens, and eventually was going to be the sort of targeted, race based, ethnic based roundup that he wanted to do.

Rachel Maddow (43:23)

One of the many things that is just disgusting about this trend of what Trump does over and over again and JD Vance does along him, is painting an entire community. We saw it with Haitian Americans in Ohio a year ago. Now Somali Americans who are living in your community and around the country in a way, in a light that is completely disgusting and unfair and inaccurate, what would you want people to know about the Somali community?

Ilhan Omar (43:48)

I mean, they are vile in trying to find ways to dehumanize people so that it does become easy for them to be targeted. What I want people to know about Somali Americans is that in Minnesota, especially Minnesota is the state we chose. Most of us were settled elsewhere in the United States when we first came. I started out in Arlington, Virginia. My family chose to move to Minnesota to have our lives there, to have our children there for me and my siblings. And we love. We love our neighbors, we love being Minnesotans, we love being Americans. And lastly, I mean, Minnesota is the kind of place that doesn't just welcome refugees, it sends one to Congress. And so they are incredible people who are very generous with their time and resources in making sure that you are.

Rachel Maddow (44:39)

A welcome to neighbor Milhan Omar, it was wonderful to see you. Thank you for being here and of course, representing such a broad swath of people in Minnesota. Thank you again. Okay, we have to sneak in a very quick break, but Lawrence has an exclusive interview with Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer coming up. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

Rachel Maddow (45:02)

That does it for me tonight. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on Ms. Now. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok. Ah, DSW Earth. Place of the humble. Brag here. The shoes are so good, no one would ever know how little you paid if you didn't go telling everyone that is. And with never ending options for everyone, every style, mood and occasion, all at really great prices, they'll definitely give you something to brag about. So go ahead, stock up on fresh sneakers from your favorite brands or try those boots you always secretly knew you could pull off. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW stores or@dsw.com Let us surprise you.