Nicole Wallace (4:34)

Whether it's right or wrong, it's time.

Political Analyst (4:35)

To go after people. What they did in 2016 and in.

Nicole Wallace (4:39)

2020 is very criminal.

Political Analyst (4:43)

It's criminal at the highest level.

Nicole Wallace (4:45)

So that's really the things you should be talking about.

Political Analyst (4:49)

What I appreciate on a sort of evil kind of way there, on some level, is that he is telling us exactly what he is doing, which is going after people and telling other people to go after people, basically to change the subject. That's really the things you should be talking about. He said. I know nothing about the other. But for all of Trump's efforts to change the subject, the Epstein story is not going away. And part of the reason it's not going away is that Trump himself is prolonging the story. I mean, today. Trump's former personal attorney, who is now, of course, the Deputy Attorney general, reached out to lawyers for Epstein's co conspirator, Ghislaine Maxwell, who is in year four of her 20 year prison sentence for sex trafficking a minor. She's the woman Trump acknowledged with words of support on the occasion of her arrest repeatedly, and the woman whose family has been lobbying the Trump administration for relief in her case. Now, that comes after yesterday's news that Trump kicked Rupert Murdoch's Wall Street Journal out of the press pool for an upcoming trip, which appears to be retaliation for last week's story on the salacious letter to Epstein in 2003, which was signed by Trump. I'm going to talk about this more later in the show. Trump also has drawn attention back to this case by insisting that his allies in Congress block any effort to release more information on Epstein. Today's little lackey, Speaker Mike Johnson made the decision to effectively shut down the House just to stall a bipartisan effort to get materials from the Epstein probe, which is a fairly ham handed way to get people to stop talking about a topic. Of course we're going to keep talking about the topic. And if there was any doubt that Trump was behind that decision, just listen to how Speaker Johnson's position changed in just the past week.

Advertiser (6:32)

We should put everything out there and.

Nicole Wallace (6:33)

Let the people decide.

Advertiser (6:34)

We cannot be careless. In an open release like that, you have to be very careful.

Political Analyst (6:40)

Seems a little under duress there. Second video I don't know. Trump is hoping that his little buddy in Congress can sweep this all under the rug over the August recess without provoking even more outrage. But while he may be able to apparently control Speaker Johnson, he cannot control every member of his party. Today, Republican Congressman Tim Burchett advanced a proposal to make Ghislaine Maxwell testify before the House Oversay Committee. He says he did not consult Trump before making that decision. And it isn't just Republicans in Congress. I mean, Trump is also having trouble with the manosphere of podcasters, has been having them for a while who helped get him elected, many of whom are now roasting his administration for their hypocrisy. I mean, for example, last year vice president J.D. vance told podcaster Theo Vaughn, look at them yucking it up there. That Trump would release the Epstein files. Today, that same podcaster is calling on Vice President Vance and Speaker Johnson to hold a vote on the bipartisan bill to do just release the Epstein files. And Trump is also having trouble with the American public and his own supporters. A new CBS News YouGov poll out this weekend finds that 89% of Americans think the Department of Justice should release all of the information it has on Epstein 89% of the public agrees on basically nothing. And nearly half of Republicans say they are dissatisfied with Trump's handling of the matter. Now, sometimes in politics, and especially in the age of Trump, we've seen this over and over again, there is an inclination just to let a scandal implode on its own. And, boy, is this one. I mean, to say to yourself, we've all done it. There's no way this doesn't lead to Trump's people running away from him. I'm just gonna sit back and kind of watch it happen. But there needs to be a place for people to run to. Not talking about the manosphere podcasters, really. I'm talking about regular American voters who thought, for whatever reason, that Trump was a transparent anti elite figure. Trump may be losing support with his base, but that doesn't mean they'll be flocking to Democrats anytime soon. This is a moment where Democrats running for office or Democrats in office have a huge opportunity. He's imploding, but it's an opportunity to earn people's trust by proving they actually stand up to the elite the way Trump just pretends to. That will mean trying new things, reaching out to new constituencies, and talking in a way that doesn't feel like the same old message tested political speech from an academic class. One of the people trying to take those steps is Texas State Representative James Talarigo. This weekend, he sat down for an interview with Joe Rogan, only the third Democrat, I believe to do so. And despite differences on a number of issues, Rogan walked away from the interview, urging him to run for president, of all things. That's probably thanks in part to moments like this.

James Talarico (9:29)

The more I've done this, I've done this for four terms now. I think of politics now less as left versus right and much more as top versus bottom. Yeah. Because I just see how we are all pitted against each other.

Political Analyst (9:47)

I'm going to talk to State Representative Talarico later in this hour. And he's not the only Democrat who is breaking through in this moment and being active in this moment. Because right now, Democrats who have the biggest opportunity to seize the moment are the ones in Congress. They are the ones who can demand hearings and hold votes and push more of their Republican colleagues to do the oversight that voters sent them there to do. Congressman Robert Garcia is the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee, and he joins me now. There are so many things going on. I'm so grateful you're here. Let me just start by asking you, I mean, Speaker Mike Johnson basically Sent everybody home. There are some drawbacks for Republicans in that regard. Not things you might like or vote for. But he sent everyone home because he didn't want to them to move forward or didn't want the House to move forward on voting to release the Epstein files. He's hoping, I guess, that he will outlast everyone through August. Do you think he can?

Robert Garcia (10:39)

Absolutely not. In fact, we're going to keep talking about the Epstein files until Donald Trump releases them. What's happening right now is the American public are seeing that Donald Trump has betrayed them. He's broken their trust. He ran on the Epstein files, the key part of his campaign. The MAGA world did as well. His family talked about it constantly. Don Jr. Tweeted about it dozens of times. They have been focused on the release to the public and to build goodwill among his base. He is now completely reversed on that. And if Donald Trump or Mike Johnson think Democrats are just going to roll over and allow that to happen, they are highly mistaken.

Political Analyst (11:17)

I think they think Republicans are going to roll over and let that happen.

Robert Garcia (11:20)

And I don't think that's going to happen either. I'm talking to not just Republicans on our Oversight Committee, but Republicans across the Congress. There's a lot. They're just keeping their mouth shut right now, but they're very concerned that their base and supporters back home are demanding them to stand up to Donald Trump in this moment. And you're going to have more and more Republicans come out and demand the release. And what Tim Burchett has done, what Tom Massey is doing, which we're going to support that discharge petition, we are going to get a full vote of that release when we come back. Those actions are important. His base is beginning to stand up to him. And it's important that at this moment, Democrats, yes, we need to focus on health care. Yes, we need to focus on tax breaks for the rich, which we oppose. But this is about corruption. At the end of the day, this leans into Americans understanding that Donald Trump is corrupt. He's not for you. He will lie to you, he will betray you. And he's only in it to save himself. And that's what this moment's about.

Political Analyst (12:16)

It's impossible to. Well, who knows? No one knows what's in there. I don't know what's in there, but hard to explain why he's so resistant to releasing more information. Let me ask you. There's so many things happening around this, so let me try to run through some of them with you. Because Trump's Former personal lawyer, who also happens to have a very high job at the Department of Justice, now is intending to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell. Now, her family has been pretty vocal about this. She clearly wants something. She wants a pardon. How concerned are you about that meeting now?

Robert Garcia (12:47)

Look, it's concerning two things are important. I mean, Democrats voted unanimously to, of course, bring her in to subpoena. We support, we agree with the Republicans on that. We believe in transparency. Let's hear from everyone. But let's also be very clear about who she is. She's been convicted. She's been involved in sex trafficking of minors. This is a bad person with a history of lying. And of course, she's now gonna be meeting with Trump's personal, essentially DOJ lawyer to do God knows what. We can't, in this moment, we can't trust that that is gonna be a good outcome. She wants to be free.

Political Analyst (13:21)

Right.

Robert Garcia (13:21)

Her family wants her to get a pardon. And so we're of course concerned that she's willing to say whatever it takes to please Donald Trump. And so what she's going to agree to, we don't know. But you know, how we can confirm what she's saying is true or not if we actually get a release of the Epstein files? And so we are happy to look at her testimony and match it to what's actually in the documents of the files. Nothing short of a complete release of the Epstein files and is good enough for the American public, and it's really not good enough for Democrats in Congress.

Political Analyst (13:53)

So there's so many things going on at the same time here. Right, because as you just referenced, there was a. There's an effort to subpoena her. I don't know that it's happened yet. Has it happened yet?

Robert Garcia (14:01)

We have voted to subpoena her. We expect that subpoena to happen in the next few days.

Political Analyst (14:05)

In the next few days hasn't happened yet. Is there anything you think could stop Republicans on the committee from issuing that subpoena?

Robert Garcia (14:10)

I think they're gonna issue the subpoena.

Political Analyst (14:11)

So this subpoena has been issued. I guess she could decline to appear even though she's been subpoenaed. What do you think is happening, though? Let's just go back to this meeting that she could be having. It's your job to kind of think about the worst. You're the ranking member on the Oversight Committee. You could be the chairman of the Oversight Committee. If Democrats won back, what do you worry most about could happen there, given this is going on at the same time, she's going to get a subpoena in the next few days to appear. So what's his lawyer asking her?

Robert Garcia (14:37)

I think we have to expect the worst. I mean, Donald Trump is only in it to save himself. So we have to expect that him, through the doj, will try to cut some kind of deal with her so that essentially her testimony to the Oversight Committee will essentially be a creation of what Donald Trump wants her to say. And that is obviously dangerous for us as a committee, but we have to expect that that's what she's going to do. She wants nothing more than to reduce her sentence or be free. Her family wants her to get a pardon. And so there could be an intense amount of coordination, illegal coordination on behalf of the Trump DOJ and the President himself to insert himself into what basically she says then matches what he wants her to say. But we should be very clear that only can we corroborate that information if it actually matches the release and what's actually in the actual files right now. So that part is critical and very important to the committee.

Political Analyst (15:26)

Thank you so much for being here. So many things to cover. I really appreciate you taking the time.

James Talarico (15:30)

Absolutely.

Political Analyst (15:31)

Understand it. Okay. It's rare a Democrat would get this kind of reception from Joe Rogan. He's talking. I'm talking. He's talking about my next guest, Texas State Representative James Talarico, who has a really unique way of connecting to people and it seems to be working. We'll talk to him in 90 seconds.

Nicole Wallace (15:51)

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James Talarico (16:30)

I met 6th graders in the 21st century in the state of Texas who couldn't read or or right. The system had failed them. I knew right then that I had to devote my life to righting this wrong.

Political Analyst (16:42)

When James Dellarigo was first sworn in as a Texas state representative back in 2018, he was mainly known for being a 29 year old former middle school teacher, the youngest person to ever serve in the Texas state legislature. But he quickly became known for a lot more than that. I mean, during his first campaign, Talarigo walked the entirety of his district Talking to constituents, a 25 mile walk and a sort of mobile town hall. It turns out Tallarico had type 1 diabetes at the time and didn't know it. And he ended up during this time hospitalized and needing to pay hundreds of dollars a month for insulin. So once he got into office, he authored a bill to cap the price of insulin at A$25 copay and worked across the aisle in Texas to get it passed and signed into law. Now, Tall Rico was such a prolific and effective young legislator that in 2021, Texas Republicans redrew the lines of his district to gerrymander it against him. So he moved to the neighboring district and won that one, too. Since then, he's had viral moment after viral moment with people well beyond just Texas resonating, particularly with the way he speaks about his faith and how it forms his political beliefs. You might remember this moment or might have seen it where Talarico fought against a bill that would have required a copy of the Ten Commandments to be displayed in every public school classroom throughout Texas.

James Talarico (18:02)

This to you, as a fellow Christian, Representative Noble, I know you're a devout Christian and so am I. This bill to me is not only unconstitutional, it's not only un American, I think it is also deeply unchristian.

Political Analyst (18:19)

You might also remember his response after the mass shooting at Rabb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas.

James Talarico (18:26)

You can't offer thoughts and prayers on Monday and then debate a bill to loosen gun regulations on Tuesday. I believe in the power of prayer. I believe prayer can change lives. I believe prayer can change the world. But there is something profoundly cynical about asking God to solve a problem that we are not willing to solve ourselves.

Political Analyst (18:57)

Representative Talarico has managed to reclaim the mantle of religious authority from Republicans on issue after issue. Not an easy thing to do, even on issues that the religious left often shies away from, like abortion.

James Talarico (19:11)

God comes over Mary and. And we have the incarnation. God asks for Mary's consent, which is remarkable. I mean, go back and read this in Luke. I mean, the angel comes down and asks Mary if this is something she wants to do. And she says, if it is God's will, let it be done. Let it be, let it happen. So to me, that is an affirmation in one of our most central stories that creation has to be done with consent. I'm very open for my fellow Christians to disagree with that. And they may have scriptural passages they point to to be anti abortion. And I think that's a debate that we should feel comfortable having. All I'm saying is that it shouldn't be assumed that just because you're a Christian, you are anti gay or anti abortion because there are so many Christians out there who don't subscribe to either of those policy positions.

Political Analyst (20:12)

So I listened to the nearly three hour interview he did on Joe Rogan. A first for me, I will admit. I recommend it though. And that made me just want to hear more from him, to ask him more questions, to learn more about what he thought. The good news is he's my next guest. Joining me now is Texas State Representative James Talarico. Representative Talarico just wrapped a big rally in Plano. That's why there are a lot of people behind him standing there in the dark. Thank you so much for being with us tonight. I really, really appreciate you taking the time. Let me just start by asking you. I mean, one of the things that is so unique about you, there are other people like this, a little bit like Reverend Warnock and a few others, but faith is incredibly central. Your faith is incredibly central to who you are. You talk about it all the time. You are, you are fearless about talking about it. Help us understand how it informs your approach to governing as you go to work every day as a Texas state lawmaker.

James Talarico (21:03)

Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on and making this work. We just finished this organizing rally in Plano, Texas, which is a red part of the state, state. And we finished this rally with hundreds of people showing up to register, to vote, to sign up, to volunteer, and some of them are even going to run for office themselves. And so we're trying to do the work here on the ground. And I appreciate you all making time even with us at this rally. But my granddad was a Baptist preacher in South Texas, to answer your question. And he taught me at a very early age that we follow a barefoot rabbi who gave two commandments, love God and love neighbor. And he told me that there is no love of God without love of neighbor. That means that every single person bears the image of the sacred. Every single person is holy, every single person counts. And that's what this American democracy is founded on, that self evident truth that all people are created equal. And so that's what motivates my work at the legislature. It's what motivated my work in the classroom. Seeing the image of God in everyone, no matter how much money you make, no matter who you pray to, no matter who you love. And I think that is something we desperately need again in this country. And so I'm so thankful we, as a party, are having that conversation about how to reclaim faith and how to root our politics in something deeper than partisanship.

Political Analyst (22:30)

I am. I grew up Catholic, and I went to Catholic school. School, and I went to Got Confirmed. And like so many people, feel disconnected from faith. It is something you so naturally speak about. And one of the issues where it feels so disconnected, especially loving my neighbor. That's something you learn when you're in elementary school, when you're growing up and learning teachings in so many religions, is immigration. And what we've seen is a cruel crackdown on immigrants across the country. And I raise this issue because for you, as somebody who thinks about things, faith, and how it impacts how you govern in such a fundamental way, it must feel incredibly discordant to see what's happening in communities across the country and what ICE is doing, really terrorizing people and families.

James Talarico (23:16)

That's exactly right. One of the most common commandments in the Bible is to welcome the stranger, because we were once a stranger. All of us are immigrants, unless you're Native American. And so remembering that we are a nation of immigrants, remembering our immigrant stories is crucial if we're going to find our way out of this mess. You know, I represent a district in Central Texas with a lot of immigrants as constituents, and I actually had a mom and. And her three kids get deported, you know, a few blocks from my house. The kids were American citizens. The mom didn't have documentation, so she was shipped off to Mexico with those kids. That's happening all over the country. We've got masked officers in plain clothes kidnapping people off the street. I mean, this should alarm all of us, whether you're a Democrat or Republican or an Independent. This is government overreach at its worst. And so we've got to remember that we are a nation of immigrants. Yes, we need border security. Yes, we're also a nation of laws. But until we remember that commandment to welcome the stranger, we're going to keep seeing these human rights abuses, like I saw in my own neighborhood a few blocks from my own house. And I'm thankful that people across the state and across the country are starting to speak out against these abuses and standing up for their neighbors, even if they don't have documentation. That's the Texas I know. That's the America I know. We've got to get back to that in this upcoming election.

Political Analyst (24:40)

One of the things we see in immigration is an example of this, but there are certainly others is this use of faith as sort of a weapon. You know, Christian nationalists do this. It's using it as a means of justifying what I would consider anti Christian actions. How do you, how do you think about that? The rise of Christian nationalism and the justification, the use of it as a weapon by so many, too many in the Republican Party.

James Talarico (25:08)

Well, this is nothing new. I mean, you open up any history book and you will see examples of people in power weaponizing religion to protect their own wealth and their own power. And that's exactly what we're seeing with Christian nationalism. It is the worship of power, whether it's social power, economic power, or political power, in the name of Christ. And I consider it a betrayal of Jesus of Nazareth, who told us often as Christians to be suspicious of power and to have a healthy relationship with that kind of governmental authority. And that's not what we're seeing with Christian nationalism. We're seeing people who are using faith and twisting faith to hurt other people, to dominate our neighbors instead of loving them as ourselves. Nothing could be further from the teachings of Jesus. And it is incumbent upon believers, upon Christians and people of other faith backgrounds to speak out against this perversion, faith and this subversion of our democracy.

Political Analyst (26:10)

Texas State Representative James Hellergo. I have a lot more questions for you. I realize you're standing in the dark in Texas right now, but I hope you can stick around for a few more minutes because we have to sneak in a quick break.

James Talarico (26:19)

Of course. Yes, please.

Political Analyst (26:29)

We're back with Texas State Representative James Talerico, still standing in the dark in Texas. I'm very grateful. So let me ask you, there's so much happening in Texas right now. I think that's representative of a lot of things happening around the country. You've been in the legislature since 2018. It's now day two of a special session where Greg Abbott wants the legislature to gerrymander its congressional maps, too. That's something others in Washington have been pushing for. But, I mean, I'm of the view, which I think you agree on, that if you're trying to suppress people's votes, you're worried not enough people want to vote for you, that sort of thing, but they're trying it nonetheless. So I guess the question I have for you is, I mean, Democrats are in the minority. What can be done to fight back on this? And is there anything that can be done to prevent it from moving forward?

James Talarico (27:16)

Well, let's just be clear about what's happening. Donald Trump is attempting to rig the next election. He and his allies in Congress just passed the largest transfer of wealth in American history. With their big, beautiful bill, they're literally kicking millions of people off their health care to fund tax cuts for billionaires. And they know it's unpopular, but they don't care because they have a plan. Donald Trump just called Governor Abbott and told him to redraw the political maps in Texas to gain five more Republican seats so they can protect their majority no matter what the election outcomes are. I mean, this is the rot at the core of our broken political system. Politicians choosing their voters. And instead of voters picking their politicians, in any other industry, this would be called a conflict of interest. And so Democrats here in Texas are going to do everything we can to stop this power grab. Because if it happens here in Texas, they're going to do it in every red state across the country. They're going to rig the 2026 midterms. We're obviously in the minority here in Texas. We've been in the minority for about 30 years. So we've learned how to use every tool in our toolbox to fight for people and deliver for people. So we have the rules. We can use the rules to figure out how to slow things down and how to kill bad bills. We can use our platforms to organize people, like we're doing out here in Plano. We can also deny quorum because they need all the Democrats to show up to be able to conduct business. We did that in 2021 to stop their voter suppression bill. And so these tactics are all things that we can. We can use and employ to try to prevent this power grab from. From. From actually happening. And so I'm going to be talking to my colleagues here at the state Capitol and figuring out what tools we can use to fight for people and protect this democracy.

Political Analyst (29:02)

One of the other things I learned from your interview with Joe Rogan is that there are two. There are billionaires everywhere trying to control government, but there are two billionaires who are essentially bankrolling Republican candidates in Texas and much of the extremist legislation coming out of the state. I mean, it struck me as a kind of a microcosm of what we're seeing everywhere, including in Washington. What worries you the most about the growing influence of money in politics? You're seeing it front and center in your own state.

James Talarico (29:32)

Yeah. You know, I just told the folks that are here that the only minority destroying America is the billionaires. I mean, the people at the top, the Elon Musk, the Rupert Murdoch, these two billionaires in Texas, Tim Dunn and Ferris Wheeler Wilkes, they use their wealth and their power to divide us Intentionally, because our unity, whether you're a Democrat, an Independent, or Republican, us being united is a threat to their wealth and power. And so they use their social media algorithms, their cable news networks, in the case of Fox News, to tear us apart. And I think that people, no matter what your, your party is, are really sick of how politics feels. They're tired of how it divides families, how it ends friendships. I mean, you can be a part of this, this political conversation, and most people walk away just feeling awful. So there is a, I think, a hunger out there again, on both sides of the aisle to change this political system so that it can actually work for people, so that we can have conversations respectfully, even when we disagree. I mean, that's, that is the foundation of democracy. On, on Joe Rogan's show, I talked about how my faith teaches me to love my enemies, to love my opponents. I have no problem having opponents like I do in the Texas House when I'm fighting for universal health care and public schools. But I am still called to love those opponents, to see them as children of God, to see them as sacred and holy. I think that teaching to love our enemies, that is the key to saving democracy. And not just here in America, but around the world. We have to be able to, to talk to each other again, because imagine who we could take on. Imagine what we could do with these wealthy special interests if we did it together.

Political Analyst (31:16)

Joe Rogan, during the end of the interview, mused that you should run for president, which I'm sure is not what you expected when you sat down 2 hours and 44 minutes earlier. So, but, but in the interim, you have to be thinking about what's next. I mean, we all know you are. It's, you're, it's, you're being mused about for a range of things. And, you know, your team appears to have registered the domain Talarico for Senate. Is that an indication you're planning to run?

James Talarico (31:42)

Well, my entire focus is on the special session that we just talked about. You know, I was hired to do a job by my constituents, and I'm going to do that job before I start applying for other jobs. But once that special session ends, hopefully with us stopping this power grab from Donald Trump, once that session is over, I'm going to think about how I can best serve, whether that's continuing my work in the legislature, whether it's exploring my work in the ministry, or whether it's running for something else like U.S. senate, I'm going to look at all of those things and figure out how what I have to offer can best help my constituents and people across the state of Texas.

Political Analyst (32:19)

I expect we will be hearing more from you. That is my prediction. Having been around this for a while. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us. I really appreciate, appreciate it. Enjoyed the conversation.

James Talarico (32:31)

Thank you.

Political Analyst (32:31)

When we, when we come back. When Donald Trump takes on the press, he often loses. So why isn't everyone fighting back? I thought about this a lot. That's next. So later this week, Donald Trump will be traveling to Scotland to meet with UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer and, oh, by the way, to visit his hotel and golf course while he's there. Of course, he wouldn't miss it, but the Wall Street Journal was scheduled to accompany him as part of the press poll for this trip. Pretty normal. But yesterday, the White House suddenly banned the paper from going and Trump press Secretary Caroline Levitt issued a pretty loaded statement. Here's what it said. Due to the Wall Street Journal's fake and defamatory conduct, they will not be one of the 13 outlets on board. Now, the fake contact that Trump's press secretary is accusing the Journal of is publishing this story last week claiming that in 2003, Trump had sent Jeffrey Epstein a birthday letter which included a lewd drawing and ended with happy Birthday and may every day be another wonderful secret. The day after the Wall Street Journal's report came out, Trump did something that no other modern sitting US President has done. He sued a media outlet over an article written about him. To the credit of the Journal and its publisher, Dow Jones, a subsidiary of Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. At this point, they have do not appear to be backing down. In a statement, a Dow Jones spokesperson said, we have full confidence in the rigor and accuracy of our reporting and we will vigorously defend against any lawsuit. All right, Wall Street Journal. Now, historically, Trump doesn't have the best record when it comes to suing the media. In May of 2023, a judge dismissed Trump's $100 million lawsuit against the New York Times, saying that Trump's claims against the paper fail as a matter of constitutional law. In July of 2023, a judge dismissed Trump's $475 million defamation suit against CNN with prejudice. And just last week, a judge dismissed Trump's nearly $50 million lawsuit against journalist Bob Woodward. Suits like these may be costly and difficult to defend, and I guess they have to factor that. But they are also very winnable, which makes it even harder to understand why some outlets are making the opposite choice. Like ABC and cbs, who chose to settle frivolous and winnable lawsuits, likely in order to avoid future attacks from this administration or smooth a pending merger. But that tactic has a clear downside. I mean, in the case of CBS News. Yes, the same news organization that fired Stephen Colbert days after he criticized them and then pretended it was a long plan, planned budgetary issue, as if we're all stupid. That same organization. So just today, Trump claims CBS and its parent company have paid the $16 million they settled for. But he tacked on a little surprise, saying that after a planned merger goes through, we also anticipate receiving $20 million more in advertising, PSAs or similar programming for a total of $36 million. In other words, it's only over when Trump says it's over. Look for any news organization in Trump's crosshairs. It's they have to choose whether they're going to fight or not fight. But appeasing Trump only emboldens him to push further. This is clear evidence of that. Not to mention, when you are in an industry where part of your motto is holding power accountable, and believe me, I've spent most of my career being held to account working in government, it looks pretty weak when you pay off the power you are supposed to be holding to account. When we come back, we're going to talk about how the chaos of the first six months of the Trump administration is affecting the Americans that Trump claims to care about, namely veterans. I'll get the details from a man who served in Trump's first administration, former VA Secretary David Shulkin. That's coming up next. Donald Trump has been president for six months and two days. Who's counting? But I think it's fair to argue that this presidency so far can be defined by two cuts and a whole lot of incompetence. And more often than not, those two things go hand in hand. I mean, after all, right out of the gate, Trump sanctioned Elon Musk to slash and burn huge swaths of the federal government. Last week, the New York Times took a look at how some of the so called waste, fraud and abuse cuts had affected one agency in particular, the Department of Veterans Affairs. And surprise, much of what Doge and Trump's VA claim to have saved the taxpayer by canceling contracts for goods and services is less than meets the eye. I mean, for example, according to the Times, Trump's VA claimed credit for canceling contracts that have not been canceled, including those that provided veterans with prosthetic legs, wheelchairs. It also reported ending contracts for reasons Unrelated to doge, they expired on schedule or were cut off after a vendor shut down. And to top it all off, according to a real time federal budget tracker by the Wharton School of business at UPenn, the VA's total spending has actually increased more than 25% since last year. But despite all of the counting incompetence, this vital agency still faces painful cuts which are projected to affect health care and services for millions of veterans. And there's not a lot of transparency about that either. Joining me now is former VA Secretary under Presidents Obama and Trump, Dr. David Shulkin. Dr. Shulkin, thank you so much for taking the time. This is one of the issues that doesn't nearly get enough attention. And it's very I work with some incredibly smart people and it's very hard to understand while there's a huge anticipation of cuts and the impact on veterans, we what is actually going on. So you've run the agency. As you look at cuts from budgetary cuts or other cuts to programs, how do you see the landscape of how veterans across the country are being impacted and could be impacted?

Advertiser (38:31)

Yeah, well, it is difficult to understand. There's not a lot of transparency about what's going on. And some of the decisions that have been announced, they're later reversed. And that's creating a lot of uncertainty, a lot of fear and a lot of anxiety, not only among veterans and their families, but among the people who serve in the VA who are there for the right reason for the mission. And so it feels very much like a reality show that's gone bad. You know, decisions that are made very quickly only to realize that those decisions weren't good to reverse them. And ultimately some of those are impacting veterans.

Political Analyst (39:12)

One of the there's other impacts that we've seen from bills. I want to raise rural hospitals because rural hospitals serve so many people across the country, including many, many veterans. And as many are scheduled, well, some are scheduled to shut down as a result of the big ugly bill, as I like to call it. How could that impact that's going to mean more veterans go to try to seek services at the va, putting more pressure on the va. Right. What kind of impact could that have?

Advertiser (39:36)

Well, I think we're going to see several things. First of all, with the hiring freezes, with the cuts of probationary employees at V, the hardest employees to hire, the hardest people to replace are those health professionals in the rural areas. There just aren't as many. So if you lose two or three people in a rural clinic that were serving veterans. That clinic may not be able to service the veterans who live in those areas. The other thing is that in this new bill that was passed by Congress and signed by the President, we're going to see a lot of Americans losing their insurance, losing their Medicaid and frankly losing some commercial insurance. That's going to bring more people into the va. So I think there's going to be an increased demand on VA as veterans without other insurance are going to go to the va and unless you have the appropriate staffing, it's going to be very hard, particularly in those rural areas.

Political Analyst (40:40)

I read this story back in May in the New York Times about. I mean, there are a lot of veterans who are seeking mental health treatment because of everything they've been through, PTSD or whatever it may be hundreds of thousands I believe, and many of them seek it through the VA because of this return to work policy. The story outlined how these medical professionals, mental health professionals were. We're in the same room. Which could impact the privacy of these veterans, make it harder for them to get accurate, up to date care, the care they need. What do you help us understand the impact of a reduction of mental health access for veterans across the country who have served our country well?

Advertiser (41:19)

We have seen the wait times go up and we've seen them go up, particularly in behavioral health care. And the demand, the need is greater than ever before. We have to remember the last major piece of legislation was the PACT act where we brought millions of veterans that frankly have been waiting for decades to get this care into the VA system. And many of them still have significant emotional needs and mental health issues that need to be addressed. And if we're not prepared to take care of that new onslaught, that's really going to be walking away from our commitment to our veterans. And what I think most Americans need to understand is that after 20 years of our war on terror, it's expensive to care for those people. And those people are going to be requiring care for decades to come. So we have to resource this correctly and we have to make sure that people who need the care aren't waiting for care because the suicide rate in veterans is still twice that of the general public and is still very, very high. And we need to see more progress in that area.

Political Analyst (42:32)

It's such an important topic. I hope we're going to keep talking about it. And all of these men and women have served our country and I think anyone watching would argue they deserve the best care they can get. Thank you so much for joining us and helping, helping us understand as much as we can about this important issue. Thank you. Coming up, Congressman Ro Khanna is joining Lawrence o' Donnell on the Democrats effort to get the Epstein files out. He's been very involved. Can't wait to see that. We'll be back after a quick break. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue Sky, Instagram and TikTok.

Nicole Wallace (43:15)

MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with actor Jeff Daniels.

Advertiser (43:25)

When you check out of the Ambition.

Political Analyst (43:26)

Hotel, you kind of go, okay, now I just want to do stuff that keeps me interested.

Nicole Wallace (43:32)

The Best People with Nicole Wallace listen now. For early access ad, free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.