Lie after lie, Senate committee dismantles RFK Jr., often using his own words against him

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode: "Lie after lie, Senate committee dismantles RFK Jr., often using his own words against him"

Date: September 5, 2025
Host: Jen Psaki (MSNBC)

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Overview of the Episode

This episode of "The Briefing with Jen Psaki" focuses on the recent Senate Finance Committee hearing featuring Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK Jr.). The podcast dissects RFK Jr.'s misleading and false statements under Senate questioning, particularly regarding gun violence, Medicaid cuts, rural health funding, and especially vaccines—a core issue in RFK Jr.'s public career. The episode unpacks how senators from both parties challenged RFK Jr., often using his prior public statements to contradict his current testimony, and includes pointed interviews with Senator Maggie Hassan and Massachusetts Governor Maura Healey about the fallout from Kennedy’s policies. The show also briefly addresses Trump administration double standards on mortgage fraud enforcement and updates on the pursuit of the Jeffrey Epstein case.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. RFK Jr.'s Senate Testimony: Lying and Obfuscation

• Antidepressants and Mass Shootings

  • Context: After a tragic school shooting in Minnesota, RFK Jr. appeared on Fox News suggesting a link between antidepressants (SSRIs) and mass shootings, despite there being no scientific evidence.
  • Denial and Gaslighting: When questioned by Senator Tina Smith about these claims, Kennedy denied ever making them—despite clear clips of him discussing the issue on TV.
    • Notable Quote [01:26]:
      • RFK Jr.: "You're just saying something. You're just making stuff up."
    • Narrator [02:23]:
      • "That clip that you just saw was one week ago tonight on Fox News."

• Medicaid Cuts Denial

  • Trump’s "Big Ugly" Bill: The bill slashes $1 trillion from Medicaid over ten years (CBO estimate).
  • Kennedy's Evasion: RFK Jr. denies any Medicaid cuts.
    • RFK Jr. [03:56]: "There are no cuts to Medicaid."
    • Narrator [03:59]: Reiterates the factual magnitude of cuts; highlights Kennedy’s blatant denial.

• Rural Health Funding Spin

  • Manipulation of Numbers: Kennedy asserts there’s a historic "infusion" of rural healthcare funding, ignoring net cuts.
    • RFK Jr. [04:53]: "You're cutting $150 billion for rural hospitals. You're putting $50 billion back. That's not an infusion. That's a loss of $100 million."
    • Narrator [05:11]: Uses a simple analogy to expose how Kennedy rebrands cuts as investments.

2. Vaccines: Central Conflict and Policy Manipulation

• Anti-Vaccine Rhetoric vs. Official Position

  • RFK Jr.’s Contradictions: Continues to claim he isn’t "anti-vax" while undermining public trust in vaccines.
    • RFK Jr. [05:54]: "Both things are true." (In response to being called anti-vax)
  • Refusal to Acknowledge COVID Death Toll
    • RFK Jr. [06:29]: "I don't know how many [Americans] died [from COVID]."
    • Narrator: Provides CDC’s public tally of 1.23 million deaths and underscores Kennedy’s deliberate ignorance.

• Firing the CDC Director and Stacking the Vaccine Panel

  • Background: Kennedy abruptly fired the CDC director after 29 days; former director alleges it was for refusing to rubber-stamp an anti-vaccine panel’s recommendations.
    • RFK Jr. [09:13]: Claims he fired the director for not being "trustworthy".
    • Lawyers’ Statement: Former director’s lawyers call Kennedy’s account "false and at times patently ridiculous."

• Misleading the Public on Vaccine Availability

  • Kennedy’s False Claims: Repeatedly claims “anybody” over 6 months can get the COVID booster at any pharmacy, despite FDA and CDC restrictions.
    • RFK Jr. [10:40]: "Anybody can get the booster."
    • Narrator: Refutes this with real restrictions and reduced access in many states.

3. Senator Maggie Hassan Interview: Firsthand Senate Perspective

• Dangers of Kennedy’s Leadership

  • Senator Hassan [14:36]: "He is a real danger to the health and safety of Americans all across this country."
  • Pattern of Projection: Kennedy accuses others of lying when presented with uncomfortable facts.
    • Hassan [15:52]: "He obfuscates, he lies...then when you call him on it, he accuses you of doing what he's just done."
  • Science Denial: Highlights Kennedy’s refusal to engage with or accept scientific consensus, especially on vaccine effectiveness.

• Vaccine Access Impacts and State Response

  • Personal Stories: Examples of denied access to boosters, especially for vulnerable populations.
  • Broad Consequences: Erosion of vaccine standards threatens children's and community health nationally.

4. States Step Up: Governor Maura Healey (MA) on State Vaccine Policy Response

• Massachusetts' Proactive Policy
  • Universal Access: Mandates insurers cover vaccines recommended by the state health department, filling the federal policy vacuum.
    • Governor Healey [37:05]: "In Massachusetts, starting tomorrow, anyone in the Bay State is able to go to a pharmacy...to get a vaccine that they need, that they want. And...you're going to be able to get it for free."
  • Coalition Building: Healey outlines a regional strategy for data sharing, disease monitoring, and backfilling former federal roles.
    • Governor Healey [39:13]: "We're going to need to work together as states to basically backfill the federal government and the Trump administration's total abdication of responsibility when it comes to public health."
  • Risks to Routine Vaccination: Healey warns that Kennedy’s approach jeopardizes not just COVID, but core childhood vaccines (measles, mumps, rubella, hepatitis B).
    • Healey [39:35]: "We're talking about COVID vaccines, flu vaccines, RSV...But it also is about your kids. Vaccines for measles, for mumps..."

5. Broader Themes: Accountability, Selective Enforcement, and Cover-Up

• Epstein Files and Trump Administration Obstruction (22:05+)

  • Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury (NM) describes ongoing DOJ and Treasury resistance to releasing Epstein financial and investigation files, in contrast to the Epstein estate’s cooperation.
  • Scale of Abuse: Testimony from survivors reveals a vast, global trafficking network with potential involvement of powerful individuals, highlighting the importance of financial and client list subpoenas.
  • Partisan Stonewalling: Stansbury underscores GOP leadership’s efforts to block full transparency.
    • Stansbury [29:09]: "I don't have confidence that under the current leadership that the committee will be allowed to fully do its job on a bipartisan basis, which is outrageous."

• Selective Mortgage Fraud Prosecutions (30:45+)

  • Bill Pulte (FHFA): Publicly aggressive on mortgage fraud investigations aimed solely at Trump opponents (Letitia James, Adam Schiff, Lisa Cook), ignoring credible allegations against Trump allies (Ken Paxton, multiple Trump cabinet secretaries).
  • Double Standard: Underscores pattern of targeting political enemies.
    • Bill Pulte [34:57]: "There are a lot of other people that have been criminally referred, and they don't have this type of benefit being given to them, which is, oh, you know, maybe it's a clerical error and maybe it's this."

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• RFK Jr., Gaslighting under Oath

  • [01:26] "You're just saying something. You're just making stuff up." — RFK Jr.

• On Medicaid Cuts

  • [03:56] "There are no cuts to Medicaid." — RFK Jr.
  • [04:53] "You're cutting $150 billion for rural hospitals. You're putting $50 billion back. That's not an infusion. That's a loss of $100 million." — RFK Jr. (fact-checked live)

• On Vaccine Stance Contradiction

  • [05:54] "Both things are true." — RFK Jr. responding when asked when he was lying: about not being anti-vax or claiming there's no safe and effective vaccine

• On COVID Deaths

  • [06:29] "I don't know how many died." — RFK Jr., refusing to acknowledge official COVID death toll

• CDC Director Firing

  • [09:13] "I told her that she had to resign because I asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said no." — RFK Jr.
  • Lawyers for the former CDC director respond, calling this "patently ridiculous."

• On Vaccine Access

  • [10:40] "Anybody can get the booster." — RFK Jr., despite clear restrictions

• Senator Hassan on Kennedy’s Tactics

  • [15:52] "He obfuscates, he lies...then when you call him on it, he accuses you of doing what he's just done." — Sen. Maggie Hassan
  • [18:59] "Florida's decision today is going to put more children at risk. And it's not just going to be children in Florida who are at risk. Virus illness doesn't stop at state borders." — Sen. Maggie Hassan

• Governor Healey on Federal Abdication

  • [38:10] "We're only in this position because we've got a guy running HHS who's a walking conspiracy theorist. Anybody who watched today could see that he's a con man."
  • [39:13] "We're going to need to work together as states to basically backfill the federal government and the Trump administration's total abdication of responsibility when it comes to public health."

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• 00:51–13:02: Breakdown of Senate hearing, interrogation of RFK Jr; collapse of Kennedy’s credibility on multiple fronts (antidepressants, Medicaid, vaccines).
• 14:09–20:46: Extended interview with Senator Maggie Hassan about Kennedy’s fitness for office and the concrete dangers of his policies.
• 22:05–29:45: Deep dive on the Epstein case: House Oversight efforts, Democratic efforts at transparency, stonewalling by Trump administration.
• 30:45–36:36: Discussion of selective mortgage fraud prosecutions; how this is being used to target political enemies.
• 37:05–41:46: Interview with Governor Maura Healey on Massachusetts’ cutting-edge vaccine access policies and the necessity of state action in the federal policy vacuum.

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Tone and Language

The tone is urgent, pointed, and fact-driven, with visible frustration at official gaslighting and deception—especially from Secretary Kennedy and other Trump administration officials. The language remains accessible but uncompromising, often punctuated with incredulity at the depth of the administration’s dishonesty. The interviews with Senator Hassan and Governor Healey are earnest and solution-focused, providing contrast with the stonewalling and double standards elsewhere discussed.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is an indictment of RFK Jr.'s public health leadership and the broader culture of dishonesty and partisan weaponization in the current administration. Through detailed recaps of the Senate hearing, direct playback of Kennedy’s contradictory statements, and expert interviews, the episode lays out the profound risks to American health policy and democratic accountability. The discussion underscores the increasing need for state-level leadership to protect public health and transparency, given federal abdication.

Recommended listen for anyone seeking to understand:

• The real-time dismantling of misinformation from government officials
• The state of vaccine policy in a time of national crisis
• The ongoing investigative hurdles in high-stakes political scandals (Epstein case)
• The dangerous merging of conspiracy and public office

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Show Host / Narrator]

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[Senator Maggie Hassan]

Created equal, then we really have to mean it.

[Show Host / Narrator]

And then there's a lot of responsibility and work that has to happen.

[Nicole Wallace]

The Best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Today, Trump's Health and human services secretary, RFK Jr. Showed the country once again that he is not just a raving conspiracy theorist. And he definitely is one of those. He. He is also a pathological liar. Take this exchange for instance. Just last week, in the days after the tragic shooting at Annunciation Catholic School in my home state of Minnesota, you went on Fox News blaming school shootings on antidepressants. You have no evidence of that because you have no evidence of a connection. And you want to talk about it. I didn't.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

You're just saying something. You're just making stuff up.

[Show Host / Narrator]

You know, this is what you say, right? Secretary Kennedy, when I present you with information that does not fit, I did.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Not blame that shooting. I have no idea whether. I have no idea. And I never said. You're making it up. Twisting. Yeah, you are, Secretary, you are being dishonest right now.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Okay, so to recap quickly, Minnesota Senator Tina Smith asked RFK Jr. A very reasonable question, which was why he went on TV after a horrific shooting that took place in her state of Minnesota that left 21 people wounded in two children dead and entertained the completely baseless conspiracy that antidepressants and not guns are the culprit behind America's mass shooting problem. And Secretary Kennedy's response was. You just heard him do it repeatedly was. That isn't true. Senator Smith is just making it up. She's being dishonest. Roll the tape, please.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

We're launching studies on the potential contribution of some of the SSRI drug, some of the other psychiatric drugs that might be contributing to violence.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Okay, that clip that you just saw was one week ago tonight on Fox News. And it wasn't just that one reference, Kennedy repeatedly went along with that narrative. So I've never seen that medicine.

[Bill Pulte]

But you're saying that if you get it, some of the side effects could be homicide, suicide.

[Governor Maura Healey]

Suicide.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Well, there are black box warnings on some of these psychiatric drugs that warn about in their clinical trials that they saw suicidal and homicidal ideation.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Now, to be abundantly clear, and I've already said this, I'm going to say it again. There is no evidence, none whatsoever, linking antidepressants to mass shootings. But still, Secretary Kennedy fanned the flames of that conspiracy repeatedly and then pretended he didn't. And that was far from an isolated moment during the hearing today. I mean, for hours today, RFK Jr. Sat in front of the Senate Finance Committee and obfuscated, misled and brazenly lied about one thing or another. Take this exchange about access to health experts.

[Bill Pulte]

How is that going to happen with the Medicaid cuts that are taking place?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

There are no cuts to Medicaid.

[Show Host / Narrator]

There are no cuts to Medicaid, okay? That is how RFK Jr responded to a question of how Americans would continue to get health care services after Medicaid cuts from Trump's big ugly bill. The man in charge of America's health care system simply denied that the bill that has the biggest cuts to Medicaid benefits in history made any cuts at all. The Congressional Budget Office, just to give you a specific stat here, estimates that Trump's big ugly bill cuts approximately $1 trillion from Medicaid funding over the next 10 years. But according to Kennedy, there are no cuts. No cuts to see here. Nothing to see here whatsoever. I mean, even after being caught in that 1 trillion dollar lie, Kennedy continued to try to sell the American public a complete bag of goods. Check out how Kennedy gets fact checked live as he tries to mislead the public about the impact of Trump's big ugly bill on America's rural health care system.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

It's gonna have. It's gonna be the biggest infusion of federal dollars into rural health care in American history. You know why? Because you're cutting $150 billion for rural hospitals. You're putting 50 billion back. That's not an infusion. That's a loss of $100 million.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Okay? Everybody can feel the burn on that one. And it does not take a mathematician, because here's the thing. Imagine if I stole $150 from you and then I gave you $50 back, and then I went in front of the US Senate to brag about how much money I gave you. How generous of me. That is basically how Secretary Kennedy tried to spin the Trump administration's cuts to rural health care today. But of course, the issue that took the cake today, and boy was there competition, was the issue that Secretary Kennedy has centered his public Persona around now for years. Vaccines. So let me ask you, when were you lying, sir? When you told this committee that you were not anti vax or when you told Americans that there's no safe and effective vaccine?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Both things are true.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Okay? Now this is the same man who has claimed he is not anti vaxx for years now. Even though Kennedy has been one of the most prominent, prolific anti vaccine voices in the country, including through the height of COVID And now that he's actually in charge of America's public health care system, he's attempting to use his position to reshape the national narratives around vaccines to fit his views, despite, of course, an overwhelming amount of actual scientific evidence to the contrary.

[Bill Pulte]

Do you accept the fact that a.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Million Americans died from COVID I don't know how many died.

[Bill Pulte]

You're the Secretary of Health and Human Services. You don't have any idea how many.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Americans died from COVID I don't think anybody knows that.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Now the cdc, one of the agencies that Secretary Kennedy is in charge of, does in fact know that, as in fact anybody could, who looked up public data. I mean, from the beginning of 2020 up until the 23rd of last month, a staggering 1,231,440 people died of COVID in the United States. What Secretary Kennedy means when he says that nobody knows how many Americans died of COVID is not actually that nobody knows. People know. What he means is that he does not like the data. Data that again is from an agency that he oversees. In Secretary Kennedy's warped mind, the issue is not the virus, it's the vaccine. So data showing just how deadly the COVID virus has been in America is inconvenient for his narrative. Independent studies estimate that the COVID vaccine has saved literally millions of American lives. But Kennedy, for whatever reason there's many, is a still a vaccine skeptic. And he's trying to force that skepticism out on everybody else. I mean, last week Kennedy abruptly fired the CDC director just 29 days after she took over the agency. This morning, that fired CDC director published an op ed in the Wall Street Journal. In it, she alleges that she was fired from her position because she insisted on rigorous scientific review of the CDC's vaccine recommendations. As she put it, I was told to pre approve the recommendations of a vaccine advisory panel newly filled with people who have publicly expressed anti vaccine rhetoric. It is imperative that the panel's recommendations aren't rubber stamped, but instead are rigorously and scientifically reviewed before being accepted or rejected. You see, it isn't actually Kennedy himself who approves or disapproves of the vaccines for the general public at all. It's a panel of actual medical experts inside the cdc.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

AZIP is an independent panel.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Okay, but even today, Kennedy was insisting that the CDC's vaccine advisory panel, as you just saw there, was independent. He had no control over it. But here's the thing. Back in June, Kennedy fired all 17 of the panel's members. He literally got rid of every single person on the panel and he replaced all of those actual experts with a handpicked panel of his choosing. A panel with, you guessed it, plenty of vaccine skeptics. So today, after the former CDC director alleged that Kennedy fired her because she refused to just preemptively rubber stamp whatever that panel decided, here is how Secretary Kennedy responded to that allegation.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

The kid will tell the head of.

[Show Host / Narrator]

The CDC that if she refused to.

[Senator Maggie Hassan]

Sign off on your changes to the childhood vaccine schedule that she had to resign.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

No, I told her that she had to resign because I asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said no.

[Show Host / Narrator]

I don't even know where to begin in unpacking that statement and what he just said. But I do need to show you Senator Elizabeth Warren's face after Secretary Kennedy said that. Look at her face. We were all Senator Warren in that moment when he said that. This shows you everything you need to know. Now, lawyers for the former CDC director put out a statement today saying that Secretary Kennedy's claims are, quote, false and at times patently ridiculous. They said the former CDC director stands by what she said in her op ed and would repeat it all under oath. Watching RFK Jr make ridiculous claim after ridiculous claim today was truly a maddening thing to watch. But the lie that actually astounded me a bit today was when he lied about something that Americans all across the country are experiencing for themselves right now, firsthand.

[Senator Maggie Hassan]

Will you tell America that all adults and all children over 6 months of age are eligible to get a Covid booster at their local pharmacy today?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Anybody can get the booster.

[Senator Maggie Hassan]

I'm sorry?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Anybody can get it.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Anybody.

[Senator Maggie Hassan]

People who want to exercise their freedom of choice are being denied that everybody gets a vaccine.

[Bill Pulte]

I would say effectively, we're denying people vaccine.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Senator Catwell, you're wrong.

[Show Host / Narrator]

They are not wrong at all. In fact, I mean, over and over again, Secretary Kennedy insisted that anyone over six months old in America walk into their local pharmacy and get their Covid Booster. The biggest pharmacy chain in the country is cvs. Right now, there are three states where CVS isn't offering the COVID vaccine at all. In 13 other states, you can only get a vaccine if you have a prescription. And no matter where you are in the country, the fda, another agency, Secretary Kennedy overseas, just restricted its authorization of the new Covid Booster to only people over 65 years old or people with underlying health conditions. That means all across the country right now, people cannot, in fact, get the COVID Booster. But rather than acknowledging that fact, the fact that millions of Americans across the country will undoubtedly experience themselves in the coming weeks, if they haven't already, rather than acknowledging that, Secretary Kennedy just denied it. On Monday, nine other former CDC directors, directors that served under both Democratic and Republican presidents, published an op ed saying that Secretary Kennedy is actively endangering every American's health. Yesterday, more than 1,000 health and human Services employees published a letter demanding that Kennedy resign. They also warned that Kennedy's leadership is endangering the nation's health. I know the word unprecedented gets thrown around a whole lot these days, but we have never been here before. What do we do when we have a health secretary who is lying to the American public and whose lies could be putting the health of the entire country in danger?

[Senator Maggie Hassan]

I'm not making.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

You're just making stuff up.

[Senator Maggie Hassan]

You know, sometimes when you make an accusation, it's kind of a confession, Mr. Kennedy.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

You're making things up to scare people and it's a lie.

[Senator Maggie Hassan]

With respect, I do not think I'm.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

The one making the right now, Senator.

[Show Host / Narrator]

New Hampshire Senator Maggie Hassan, who you just saw there, is standing by and joins me to discuss in just 90 seconds.

[Governor Maura Healey]

I think that you have to have.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Faith that in the end it'll all be okay.

[Governor Maura Healey]

That no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Can can say and do.

[Governor Maura Healey]

The Constitution will protect the rights of.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Everybody, if you can agree that most.

[Governor Maura Healey]

People want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result.

[Nicole Wallace]

Deadline. White House with Nicole Wallace Weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why is this happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcast.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Joining me now, as promised, is New Hampshire Democratic Senator Maggie Hassan. Senator Hassan, I just played part of what you said today at the hearing, which was very powerful, part of what a number of your colleagues said today. But for people who weren't able to watch the full hearing today, you were in the room. What did I miss? And what should they really understand about what the Secretary of Health and Human Services had to say today about our public health?

[Senator Maggie Hassan]

Well, this is now the third or fourth time I have been in a hearing in which Secretary Kennedy has been the witness. And once again, he showed that he is a real danger to the health and safety of Americans all across this country. Excuse me, I actually hadn't seen all of the questionings, some of which you just showed. And what he did again and again and again is obfuscate, spin, lie, accuse other people of lying, when in fact he was to try to deflect. Excuse me. And what we really saw there was the reason that I voted against his confirmation and the reason that I, along with so many of my other colleagues, have called for his resignation.

[Show Host / Narrator]

One of the things I just played this clip of what you said when you said that when he makes an accusation, it's kind of a confession. And I thought this was so astute because, I mean, he's one of the people who should be projecting to the American public what they should know and understand about the health threats that are facing us. But he's not somebody who you can believe. But tell me more about what you meant by that when you said it.

[Senator Maggie Hassan]

Well, look, he obfuscates, he lies. You showed clip after clip which showed him denying things that he said on tv, for instance. And then when you call him on it, he accuses you of doing what he's just done. And he's really projecting his own behavior onto people who are trying to get to the bottom of what's happened here. People are really concerned about the fact that he fired the new CDC director, somebody he had nominated and promoted for the appointment. When we called him on that or tried to get information about it, he accused her of being untrustworthy. When you present him with information that doesn't fit his narrative, he says, you're making things up. And the thing here is that it is fine to question science. Questioning is foundational to science. And it's what leads us to better and better science, to the truth, ultimately. But that isn't what Secretary Kennedy is about. When he is presented with information that conflicts with his worldview, he just accuses whoever presents it to him of lying or doesn't accept the information as real. And he did that again and again today, even when, you know, I presented to him the fact that there are multiple studies that say that the COVID 19 vaccine saved at least 3 million lives, American lives, and millions more around the globe. He dismissed that study. And I think that that's what you're hearing. The CDC leadership, the director who was fired, but the people who resigned in protest of her firing, according to them, they've offered to brief the secretary, but he wouldn't accept the briefing. And so, you know, he accuses the Biden administration of not being transparent. And then when you ask him for the data that he used to unilaterally overrule scientists and change the FDA approvals for the COVID vaccines, he says he's presented it, he hasn't. It appears that there is no data that supports his view. But that's the problem here, and that's what I was trying to get at. This is a way he deflects and projects his own character onto the people who are challenging him.

[Show Host / Narrator]

It's such an important point. I mean, I had one of the former CDC high level officials on last week, Dr. Demetri, as we call him, and he said they offered multiple times and he wouldn't. And that's such a normal thing. These public health experts, they're not trying to be political, they're just trying to provide information. Let me ask you, I mean, when it comes to vaccine access, I mean, we've seen, we talked about this a little bit last night, we're gonna talk, do a little bit more on it tonight. But we've seen some individual states take steps to ensure access is available through insurance. Unfortunately, that doesn't, of course, negate the actions of other states like Florida, where they're making it harder to gain access and even getting rid of vaccine requirements for schools. We're really, I think, you tell me, at the front end of this, in some ways, in terms of seeing the impact, how are you thinking about the impact a year from now or two years from now if these policies continue under this department?

[Senator Maggie Hassan]

Well, let's just take the Florida example for a minute. Florida's decision today is going to put more children at risk. And it's not just going to be children in Florida who are at risk. Virus illness doesn't stop at state borders. I come from the live free or die state. New Hampshire is very, very proud of our commitment to individual freedom. But we also believe in common sense and we know some basic standards that protect all our kids so all our kids can go to school without fear of getting a very serious or even in some cases deadly illness. That's just common sense. I am already hearing from people in other parts of the country a moment who is under 65 years old. She has a child with type 1 diabetes. She always gets the COVID booster and flu shot together. So she is less likely to spread the disease to her child who has type 1 diabetes. And she was told in Montana that she can't get the shot even if she pays for it out of pocket. So it's already happening. These are really serious impacts. Families, especially families who have members with health conditions, make fairly sophisticated decisions in consultation with their doctors about what's best for them. And when I tried to say to Secretary Kennedy today, why are you taking this freedom away from families, from parents about what's the right thing for them to do in their family, he just again told me that the vaccines are available and that there's no restrictions, which of course, is exactly opposite of the new rules that he insisted that the FDA adoption.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Exactly. Senator Maggie Hassan, thank you for your tireless advocacy and truth telling. Appreciate you being here. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but after that, we're going to talk about Trump's enemies list, which is starting to look more like a to do list. And while the administration denies launching politically motivated investigations, it's probably no coincidence that all his political opponents are being accused of the same thing. But first, the DOJ isn't the only agency slow, slow walking the release of the Epstein files. Another department has been stonewalling one senator's demands for so long that he is now accusing the administration of giving comfort to the pedophiles and accomplices who are part of Epstein's sex trafficking ring. It's quite a letter. We'll talk about it. That's coming up next.

[Nicole Wallace]

Saturday, October 11th. From New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNB NBC hosts Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.

[Show Host / Narrator]

All right, despite the impassioned pleas yesterday from the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse. And it was incredible thing to watch. Donald Trump and his allies in Congress continue to do nearly everything possible to prevent the release of the Epstein files and the sharing of more information to help the public understand what happened here. The Justice Department is slow walking its response to a subpoena from the House Oversight Committee. And what little the DOJ has released represents just 1% of the total. And most of that 1% was already public. The White House is also trying to stop House Republicans from signing onto the discharge petition that would force a vote to compel DOJ to release all the files. According to Politico, Trump aides have made calls to GOP members and pressuring those who haven't signed to keep their names off the discharge petition. All this discharge petition would do is allow for a vote on the floor that would compel DOJ to release the documents. But it's not just the DOJ that's withholding evidence. It's the Treasury Department, too. Senator Ron Wyden says Treasury has repeatedly refused to turn over information on nearly 5,000 wire transfers totaling more than a billion dollars involving Epstein and his associates. Now he's accusing the administration of a cover up, saying they are, quote, giving comfort to the pedophiles and accomplices who were a part of Epstein's sex trafficking ring. The House Oversight Committee, meanwhile, is having some success in getting materials from Epstein's estate. Next week, the estate is set to hand over key documents that may include the birthday book that reportedly includes a message from Donald Trump and MSNBC also that some members are set to view unredacted documents from the Epstein estate next week in New York. Let's just let that sink in for a moment. Donald Trump's administration, which he described as the most transparent in history, seems to be less forthcoming about Jeffrey Epstein than the late sex predator's own estate. That's the moment we're in. And joining us now is Congressman Melanie Stansberry of New Mexico, who's a member of the House Oversight Committee. There's a lot to get to. I just want to start by asking you to explain, to the degree you can, the difference between what the estate will be giving on Monday and what you expect to see or have access to in the unredacted materials that members of your committee will be able to see later in the week.

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

Absolutely. Well, first of all, let me just say that everything that is in the possession of the federal government could be released like that.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Yeah.

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

And there's one person that has the opportunity to do that. And that is Donald Trump, and he is refusing to do that. And he is threatening his own members of Congress to stop that from happening. And we know that there are financial records, we know that there are FBI investigations. We have been told there are potential CIA investigations involving not only international wire transfers, but potentially foreign actors. And we know that there are hundreds of cases that have not been completely investigated. But the House Oversight Committee Democrats forced a vote to subpoena both the public records that are held by DOJ as well as the estate records and our subpoena to the estate. We've asked not only for the birthday book NDA that Epstein may have signed, also financial documents and transfers, as well as any documents that have a client list or would indicate anyone involved in any of his sex trafficking activities. But the thing about the estate is that they're complying with the law, whereas Donald Trump has not complied with the subpoena.

[Show Host / Narrator]

That is a very important thing to note. One of the things that struck me over the last several months is just the power of these survivors and them speaking out, but also the. Which I think it's often kind of shorthanded as Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein and sort of a handful of victims. It seems like it is much, much larger than that. But what is your sense? You've spent a lot of time digging into this.

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

Yeah, I mean, we had about six survivors come and tell their stories privately to Oversight Committee members. And I have to say I was just. I still haven't found the words to respond to how stunning. What I heard was, I think as a woman, as I think probably most women in America can feel in their bones, we know what it's like to be exploited by powerful people and to be subjected to physical and other abuse. And so I think that this case is resonant not only because of its scope and scale and the miscarriage of justice and now the even continued cover up after decades, but this is a criminal investigation on a scale that involves potentially hundreds, and if not hundreds, thousands of potential victims in the United States across the world. Thousands, yeah, potentially thousands across the world. It also includes international money laundering, wire transfers, potentially foreign governments. I mean, I've never even heard of a case like this before. And when you start to dig into what happened and how it was covered up by the justice system, it's beyond imagination.

[Show Host / Narrator]

One of the things, I mean, I want to read another excerpt from Senator Wyden's letter because you are all digging into similar things from different committees. And he says the treasury records will, quote, shine a light on how high profile individuals paid Epstein staggering stuns of money, which he alleges, quote, was then used to move women around the world or engage in dubious transactions indicative of money laundering. That means a lot of things to me. I mean, that there were other people involved beyond. I mean, it's a huge network of people involved. Help us unravel that. Like, what are you looking into, into the finances of this, and what are you hoping to find and learn and show the public?

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

Well, as we understand it, the attorneys in this case have essentially written us a roadmap for where we need to be looking and the financial transactions in particular. We know that there are hundreds of wire transfers, transactions that were moving over a million dollars a year just for sex trafficking activities, and whether that was between individuals or institutions. And we were also told during the testimony with the survivors that when Epstein could no longer successfully abuse children in the United States, they were paying for young women to be flown in from Eastern Europe. And so, I mean, we're talking an extra explosive, expansive network of corruption and sex trafficking that is literally global in.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Scale, that is flying women in. And we know there were international clients because of some of the court records, these documents. Senator Wyden's asking for these documents, of course, to be subpoenaed. He's asking for them. Do you think the Oversight Committee worked together with Republicans on a range of things? Do you think there's an appetite for. For using subpoena power to get access to the financial documents? I mean, this seems pretty important to the whole case here.

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

I mean, I hope so. I want to work and I want to believe that my colleagues want to work in good faith. And I do think there are people on the Oversight Committee who are committed to that. But I think you also have to look at the actions of what leadership is doing in the House, and that is that they're trying to stop a discharge petition from members on both sides of the aisle from having the files released. And so I. I don't have confidence that under the current leadership that the committee will be allowed to fully do its job on a bipartisan basis, which is outrageous.

[Show Host / Narrator]

There's gaslighting happening right now.

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

It's a cover up.

[Show Host / Narrator]

The suggestion that the victims don't want this information released is just unbelievable. Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury, thank you for your work. Thank you for being here this evening. I really appreciate it. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, but after we're gonna talk about the Trump administration. What they are doing on a roll, lobbying, accusations of mortgage fraud against top officials. They are obsessed with this. That is, unless the official, of course, happens to be a Republican, then they're holding back on that. It's a whole thing. I'm going to explain it after a quick break. Donald Trump wants you to believe that his administration is being tough on crime, that that is their. One of their big pursuits. And if there is one crime that the Trump administration says it absolutely will not tolerate, one crime that they will go to the ends of the earth to prosecute, it's this one.

[Bill Pulte]

My main focus is on getting rid of mortgage fraud and finding mortgage fraud, no matter who commits it. Democrats, Republicans, it doesn't matter. If it's a Republican who's committing mortgage fraud, we're going to look at it. If it's a Democrat, we're going to look at it. It doesn't matter. Whether you're a Republican or Democrat or a Fed governor or somebody who mans a conviction convenience store, if you commit mortgage fraud, you need to be held accountable, Period.

[Show Host / Narrator]

All right, that guy's talking tough. That was Trump's director of the Federal Housing Finance Authority, Bill Pulte, saying that this administration is laser focused on prosecuting mortgage fraud, no matter who commits it. But here's the thing. So far, all of the people who Bill Pulte has accused of mortgage fraud have one thing in common. They're all people that the President considers his enemies. In April, Bill Pulte asked the Justice Department to investigate New York's Democratic Attorney General, Letitia James, to the Department of Justice for alleged mortgage fraud. In May, Bill Pulte asked the Justice Department to investigate another Democrat, Senator Adam Schiff, for alleged mortgage fraud. Earlier this month, he did it again, this time alleging that Federal Reserve Board Governor Lisa Cook committed mortgage fraud. Trump then used those claims as a pretext to fire Lisa Cook from the Federal Reserve. And today, NBC News reports that the Department of Justice has officially opened a criminal investigation into Lisa Cook. None of those officials have admitted any wrongdoing. And both Lisa Cook and Letitia James have suggested that the allegations against them are the result of a clerical error. But Bill Pulte says that doesn't matter.

[Bill Pulte]

There are a lot of other people that have been criminally referred, and they don't have this type of benefit being given to them, which is, oh, you know, maybe it's a clerical error and maybe it's this. Did you sign these documents or did you not?

[Show Host / Narrator]

Bill Pulte definitely wants people to believe he has a zero tolerance policy. For mortgage fraud. But watch what happens when Bill Pulte was asked about credible allegations that Texas's pro Trump Republican Attorney general committed this same type of mortgage fraud.

[Bill Pulte]

Ken Paxton, Texas Attorney General running for US Senator, US Senate, has there's at least it looks like three examples, working examples right now of what could be described as alleged mortgage fraud. Is that something you're looking at? As I said, unless it's something that's either been made public by lawyers like Norm Eisen or in criminal referrals, I'm not going to comment on any specific situation. If things are made public then, or if we decide to make them public, then I will talk about it.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Okay, so Bill Pulte is happy to talk about alleged mortgage fraud by Democrats, but he can't talk about mortgage fraud allegations against Republicans. Not unless it's, quote, unquote, made public or if we decide to make it public. Now, set aside how much that last part seems to contradict everything he just said. The allegations against Ken Paxton have already been made public. I mean, a simple Google search of Ken Paxton and mortgage fraud pulls up quite an array of articles from a range of national and local outlets who have been reporting on Paxton's mortgages for months. Paxton's Republican primary opponent, John Cornyn, has even started running attack ads all about Ken Paxton's mortgage problem. And Ken Paxton isn't even the only Republican that Bill Pulte seems to be ignoring. Today, ProPublica reports that not one, not two, but three separate Trump cabinet members appear to have committed this same type of mortgage fraud. Trump's Labor Secretary, Laurie Chavez Darimer, his EPA Administrator Lee Zeldin, and his Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy, all have mortgages on more than one home, which they claim as their primary residence. When asked for comments, spokespeople for each of those officials suggested they had done nothing wrong. A spokesperson for EPA Administrator Zeldin said that every I was dotted and T was crossed. Hmm, that's true. And a spokesperson for Sean Duffy said that the bank, not the secretary, determines and classified both mortgages as primary residence, which is the same explanation, by the way, that Senator Adam Schiff's team said. And maybe that's true. I mean, look, maybe the banks screwed up the documents. Maybe these were all innocent mistakes. That happens. But remind me again, what is this administration's policy on innocent mistakes?

[Bill Pulte]

There are a lot of other people that have been criminally referred and they don't have this type of benefit being given to them, which is, oh, you know, maybe it's a clerical error. And maybe it's this. Did you sign these documents or did you not?

[Show Host / Narrator]

I will note that none of those three cabinet officials denied signing their allegedly fraudulent mortgage documents. But let's be real, going after mortgage fraud isn't really Bill Pulte's goal at all. Doesn't matter how much he wants to be the crusader of that on television. His goal is to ingratiate himself with Trump by going after Trump's enemies. And that double standard is getting more and more obvious by the day. Coming up, she's taking health care into her own hands. Massachusetts Governor Maura Healey joins me live to explain her state's unique attempt to circumvent the chaos of federal vaccination vaccine policy under Health Secretary RFK Jr House Secretary RFK Jr. S conspiracy driven crackdown at the FDA has upended broad access to the COVID vaccine. We've been talking about that through the course of the show. I mean, right now, because of recent changes in federal recommendations, only two groups of people, adults over 65 and an unspecified group of high risk individuals, are currently able to get the COVID booster at no cost. Everyone else has to pay it for themselves if they can even gain access to it. In response, at least seven states have taken matters into their own hands, including Massachusetts, which this week became the first state in the country to mandate insurance coverage for vaccines, Meaning if the CDC decides not to recommend a certain vaccine, but the Massachusetts Department of Health does, insurers in the state will be required to cover those vaccines regardless. This comes as Massachusetts considers forming a health alliance with neighboring states in the Northeast, following the lead of California, Oregon and Washington, which yesterday announced plans to do the same out West. Joining me now is Democratic governor of Massachusetts, Maura Heerley. Governor, it's great to see you. I think this is such great news for the people of Massachusetts. You came to this decision or came out with it quite quickly. I just mentioned what it would mean. Is there anything I missed about the impact of the announcement you made?

[Governor Maura Healey]

Well, except to say that in Massachusetts, starting tomorrow, anyone in the Bay State is able to go to a pharmacy and make an appointment, go to one of our clinics, make an appointment to get a vaccine and to get a vaccine that they need, that they want. And what I'm about and what this announcement is about, simply put, is making sure that people have access to the vaccines that they need and that they want. And also in Massachusetts, you're going to be able to get it for free because insurance is going to pay.

[Show Host / Narrator]

I know the governor of New York has announced something similar. I think this is such a smart thing. Hopefully other people will do it. After watching the hearing today, I think people need that reassurance. I want to ask, I mean, right now, Massachusetts, other states are charting their own path for vaccine policy, which is great for the people of the state, but as we know from COVID outbreaks don't stop at state borders. I'm sure you are concerned, but how concerned are you that this patchwork of response, as well thought as it is and as bold as it is, isn't going to do enough to protect the residents of your state or other people in the country?

[Governor Maura Healey]

Well, Jen, we're only in this position because we've got a guy running HHS who's a walking conspiracy theorist. Anybody who watched today could see that he's a con man. He lied. He lied in his confirmation hearing, apparently. And today he was questioned by both Republican and Democratic senators on this. And you know, this is about public health. Politics shouldn't be at play here. Ideology shouldn't be at play.

[Show Host / Narrator]

But.

[Governor Maura Healey]

But Robert Kennedy has time and time again demonstrated he's just willing to take Americans down this rabbit hole. And the bottom line is public health is at risk. So that's why governors like I have to take actions into our own hands to protect as many people as possible, starting with the people in our states. I'm also pleased that so many other states are joining or working together on this, because not only have we formed a coalition to make sure that we get vaccines out the door to those who need them and want them and that they're accessible and that there's insurance coverage for this, but also it's broader.

[Senator Maggie Hassan]

Right.

[Governor Maura Healey]

We're going to need to work together as states to basically backfill the federal government and the Trump administration's total abdication of responsibility when it comes to public health. What does that mean? It means we're going to be working together as states to do disease monitoring, to look at the data, to share the data. We're going to work together on things like emergency preparedness, things that the CDC and HHS typically was a federal partner to states on. And not only are they no longer a federal partner, they're actively undermining public health in our states. And that's why I'm proud that Massachusetts stepped up. I'm proud of our Commissioner of Public health, who, by the way, is a doctor and wrote a prescription for everybody in Massachusetts to be able to access these vaccines. And the other thing, Jen, I think is important to note, people have got to understand what's going on. This isn't just about COVID vaccines, because you're at risk right now under Robert Kennedy's regime. Okay? This is very real. We're talking about COVID vaccines, flu vaccines, RSV that were taken off the table last week for people across America. We've put them back on the table in Massachusetts. People are gonna be able to get those vaccines. But it also is about your kids. Vaccines for measles, for mumps, for rubella, for hepatitis B. I mean, things that, you know, have just been long a part of public health care across the United that is all at risk of going away. So, of course, steps states have to step forward to fill this. We've got to protect our residents. We've got to protect public health. And I'd like to see as many states put politics aside and leaders put politics aside and put public health first. That's what we're going to do.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Governor Healey, I mean, it is. I just want to reiterate something you said. I mean, I worked in federal government for two presidents. It is. So there's a reason there is a federal federal health policy, typically, and information, and it shouldn't be on governors like you. I'm grateful you're doing it. I'm sure the people of the state are to have to do this kind of thing. Let me ask you just before I let you go. I mean, there have been a lot of confusion from the federal government, including about the intention of ICE crackdowns in states and what the Trump administration wants to do in terms of sending troops or ICE reinforcement into states. Have you. And National Guard as well. Have you been given. There's been reports about plans for increased immigration enforcement, a surge in Boston. Have you been given any indication from the Trump administration about plans to do that?

[Governor Maura Healey]

No, I haven't. But, you know, look, Jen, as you know, I'm a former prosecutor, former attorney general, and as governor, I put public safety first. And unfortunately, what I continue to see week after week is the Trump administration using the National Guard in an effort to politically intimidate or try to politically intimidate certain opponents, certain states, certain cities. It does nothing to support or further public safety. And that's why you see so many local officials speaking out against this. Because, you know, if you're the federal government and you truly want to get after crime and you truly want to work on public safety, then you fund local police departments, which the Trump administration isn't doing. You support support efforts to provide treatment for those dealing with mental health issues and drug issues and the like. You fund community policing. That's support, right? What's going on is political theater. It's political intimidation and an attempt to silence critics. And it's unfortunate.

[Show Host / Narrator]

Governor Healey, thank you so much for being here. We'll be right back. Donald Trump has made it crystal clear his next target is Chicago. And just this week he said, we're going, meaning the National Guard is expected to deploy on the streets of another American city. Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker says the whole idea is unhinged. And my big programming note and news is the governor will be my guest tomorrow night on the Briefing live from Chicago right here on msnbc. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok.

[Bill Pulte]

Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers. And sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details.

[Show Host / Narrator]

I need a coffee.

[Bill Pulte]

And you need Lifelock. Because your info is in endless places. It only takes one mistake to expose you to identity theft. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] specialoffer terms apply.