← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
Musk inadvertently gives away the game in spat with Trump
00:41:43
In the midst of Donald Trump and Elon Musk throwing insults and threats at each other on their respective social media platforms, Musk accused Donald Trump of being ungrateful to Musk for purchasing the election for him, an admission of sorts that his support for Trump was transactional. Jen Psaki takes a closer look.
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- [00:00]
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- [00:31]
Claude
Okay, let's talk about Claude, the if you know, you know, AI assistant that's got everyone buzzing. Claude is like having a super smart, emotionally intelligent buddy in your pocket that responds like a real person would. Claude can help with just about anything. Whether you need advice, inspiration, or even someone to help craft that perfect text to your crush, Claude can switch from being your life coach to your personal stylist to your side hustle strategist, all in one conversation. Head to Claude.com, that's C-L-A-U--E.com and start chatting with Claude for free.
- [01:02]
Host
Obviously, as all of you know, because I know you have all been paying attention to this, a lot has happened since we last spoke and we're going to get to all of it, I promise. But to kind of understand how radically everything has changed today, I think we need to go back to this moment. This was just 6 days ago, not even a week, not even a week ago, that Donald Trump was practically fawning over Elon Musk during his Oval Office sendoff. I mean, Trump even gave Musk a big shiny gold key. Look at that. Very weird. As a token of his appreciation. And he said that even though Musk was leaving the government, he would still very much be a part of this team.
- [01:42]
Donald Trump
Many of the Doge people, Elon, are staying behind too. So they're not leaving. And Elon's really not leaving. He's going to be back and forth.
- [01:50]
Host
I think Elon's not really leaving. He'll be back and forth. Even though he's living somewhere else. We're still committed to each other and to the children. And by children, I mean the 22 year olds Musk and Trump put in charge of the federal government, obviously, but that was the message out of the White House. Six days ago, not even a week ago, Trump and Musk were parting ways on what appeared to be somewhat friendly terms. Now, we knew at least part of the reason why Musk likely decided to leave when he did. I mean, for one thing, if Elon Musk stayed on as a full time White House advisor, he would have had to disclose many of his own business conflicts. And we're going to be digging into those later this hour with the great Norm Eisen and this new exclusive report. But we know that at the time of Musk's exit, his biggest company, Tesla, was in a bit of a downward spiral, thanks to consumer boycotts. You can see many of them across the screen, and protests and pretty intense public blowback. We also know that Elon Musk was very upset that Trump and congressional Republicans were killing the electric vehicle tax credit that benefited Musk's company. So it's not hard to imagine how it must have felt for Musk when he left Washington, got back home, woke up Saturday morning, perhaps dug back into the books at Tesla and realized just how bad things were at his biggest company. Because by Tuesday, Musk was attacking Trump's big ugly bill on X, calling it a disgusting abomination and saying that it would send the country into debt slavery. Of course, that all put the Republican Party in a very awkward position, as we've been talking about through the course of this week. After all, they've been banking on the idea that Elon Musk was going to keep throwing money at them through the midterms. Now, by Wednesday, House Speaker Mike Johnson was openly pleading in an awkward and embarrassing and desperate way with Elon Musk to please return his calls. I think he's still pleading a couple days later. Just 24 hours later, things got a lot weirder and a lot more personal because by this afternoon, Elon had let loose a barrage of tweets attacking the president. And at one point, he sort of gave away the game, tweeting, without me, Trump would have lost the election, Dems would control the House and the Republicans would be 5149 in the Senate. He followed that up by tweeting, such ingratitude. In other words, in a not so subtle way, Musk is implying that Trump didn't return the favor well enough for the hundreds of millions of dollars Musk spent to get him reelected and bring Republicans on the coattails. And just a few hours later, Musk tweeted this quote, time to drop the really big bomb. This is where it really escalated. Donald Trump is in the Epstein files. That is the real reason they have not been made public. Have a nice day, djt. Oh, boy. That was a couple hours after he then reposted an infamous video showing Trump and Epstein together at a party at Mar a Lago. And that footage was filmed by NBC in 1992, unearthed again in 2019 when their relationship came under scrutiny Just after Epstein's arrest. Of course, Trump has denied involvement in any of Epstein's criminal behavior. And Musk offered no new evidence in any of these posts to support his allegations. That said, Trump's commitment to transparency on Epstein has left something to be desired. I would say. Would you declassify. You can answer yes or no to this. Would you declassify the 911 files? Yeah.
- [05:11]
Elon Musk
Would you declassify JFK files?
- [05:13]
Donald Trump
Yeah, I did. I did a lot of it.
- [05:15]
Host
Would you declassify the Epstein files?
- [05:18]
Donald Trump
Yeah, Yeah, I would.
- [05:20]
Host
All right.
- [05:20]
Donald Trump
I guess I would. I think that less so because, you know, you don't know, you don't want to affect people's lives if it's phony stuff in there. Because there's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world.
- [05:31]
Host
Less so on that one. A lot of phony stuff in there. Now, here in the reality based world we all live in, we've all long known about Trump's ties to Jeffrey Epstein. But in MAGA world, this is not something you're supposed to bring up ever. And Musk then followed that up by endorsing a plan to impeach Donald Trump and make J.D. vance the president. So that's how Elon Musk spent his escalatory day of sorts. As for Trump, here's what he said about Elon earlier today in the Oval Office.
- [06:03]
Donald Trump
I'm very disappointed in Elon. I've helped Elon a lot. People leave my administration and they love us and then at some point they miss it so badly and some of them embrace it and some of them actually become hostile. I don't know what it is. It's sort of Trump derangement syndrome, I guess they call it.
- [06:25]
Host
I don't know what it is. Then Trump took it up a notch with a more threatening tone, as often happens on his own social media platform. He said, quote, elon was wearing thin. I asked him to leave. I took away his EV mandate that forced everyone to buy electric cars that nobody else wanted that he knew for months I was going to do, do. And he just went crazy. And he then followed up with a tweet saying the easiest way to save money in our budget, billions and billions of dollars, is to terminate Elon's governmental subsidies and contracts. Well, their public feud caused a huge sell off in Tesla stock, which dropped 14% just today and has shed nearly a quarter of its value since the year began. All of this has come as a bit of a shock to Magaland. I mean, today, right wing recording artist and Nazi apologist Kanye west tweeted, bros, please know we love you both so much. With an emoji of two silhouettes hugging it out again. Sometimes you can't predict what the day will bring forward for you when you wake up. Now, at this point, I think I should pause here and just say, I know you've all been following a lot of this. I know a lot of it sounds made up, but all of this actually happens and more in just the last 12 hours. And there actually is more. I mean, at one point in the day, Musk unfollowed Trump advisor Stephen Miller on Twitter, which is pretty awkward on its own because Stephen Miller's wife has just taken a position working for Elon Musk. Right around that time, Miller was scheduled to appear on the Fox Business Channel. But instead, this happened.
- [08:00]
Norm Eisen
All right, folks, so live TV, we lost Mr. Miller to a meeting in the Oval Office. Perfectly understandable. When I was in government, it would happen all the time. And after kill TV show.
- [08:11]
Host
Ah, yes, when I was in government would happen all the time. Megalomaniac billionaires trading insults and one accusing the other of being in the Epstein files. Happens all the time. Just another day at the office. That's how it goes in the White House. Look, I could spend all night showing you how these two grown men in positions of real power spent the day sniping at each other online. And there's plenty more to do that with. And by the way, this is why they say people shouldn't break up over text or over social media platforms that you own and operate specifically. But the truth is, as fun as it may be to watch their relationship fall apart, and it is fun, there are still real consequences to all of this. I mean, in response to Trump's threats, Musk now says his company, SpaceX, will decommission the spacecraft that the US uses to shuttle people to the International Space Station. It's worth remembering also that Elon Musk's Starlink system has been used to provide Internet in war torn Ukraine. For better or worse. I would argue definitely for worse. The US Government has become reliant on Musk companies for some pretty important functions. And abruptly cutting off access to those things would have huge implications for both the United States and even the broader world. The alliance of Trump and Musk did huge damage to the US Government. There's no question about that. We will keep talking about that, but their breakup could do huge damage as well. I mean, remember, Trump gave Musk the keys to the kingdom, both figuratively and literally. With that weird gold key. And even as Tesla stock gets crushed, we're still processing the many ways that Musk's vast business empire has enmeshed itself in the federal government. A new report from Democracy Defenders Fund that we're bringing to you again exclusively tonight details how billions in federal contracts have flowed to Musk's company, SpaceX, during his time in government. The report also shows how Starling's fortunes have surged thanks to new rules allowing the State Department to promote it overseas, something we have also talked about quite a bit on this show as well. It also details how regulatory scrutiny into Musk companies basically evaporated as cases involving Tesla, Neuralink and other Musk ventures were delayed or dropped. That's definitely a help. You're the owner of the companies and they describe how his social media company X has seen revenue rebound amid growing federal reliance on the platform. Of course they have. Of course, when it comes to these huge conflicts of interest, the White House has insisted the president abided by the law. Of course, they insist that saying Musk would have excused himself from overseeing anything that posed a conflict. But now we have this kind of volcanic breakup between Elon Musk and Donald Trump. And one of the big questions now is what will that breakup mean for Musk's businesses? And more importantly, what could it mean for the US Government and for the American people? I happen to have the perfect person to ask who I've known for a long time. Norm Eisen is one of the authors of that brand new report. He understands how government works better than almost anyone I know. He's tangled with Elon Musk more than anyone I know, and he joins me here at the table in 90 seconds.
- [11:17]
Nicole Wallace
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- [11:47]
Claude
Okay, let's talk about Claude, the if you know, you know, AI assistant that's got everyone buzzing. Claude is like having a super smart, emotionally intelligent buddy in your pocket that responds like a real person would. Claude can help with just about anything. Whether you need advice, inspiration, or even someone to help craft that perfect text to your crush, Claude can switch from being your life coach to your personal stylist to your side hustle strategist all in one conversation. Head to Claude.com, that's C-L-A-U--E.com and start chatting with Claude for free.
- [12:19]
Nicole Wallace
MSNBC presents a new original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with Jason Bateman and Rachel Maddow.
- [12:29]
Host
We are in a really important moment and we're an important place in it, and I'm glad that we're there together.
- [12:36]
Nicole Wallace
The Best People with Nicole Wallace Episodes one and two are available now for early access, ad free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [12:57]
Host
As promised. Joining me now is Norm Eisen, head of the Democracy Defenders Fund and the former ethics czar in the Obama White House. He is here with an exclusive look at a very timely new report entitled Cut to How Elon Musk Profited While decimating the the U.S. government. Norman, it's great to see you. I've known you a long time. As I said before, there are few people who have tangled as much and know as much about Elon Musk's finances. So talking to you about this report is it's almost perfect timing given the absolute train wreck we watched today. Let me ask you this. I mean, I outlined some of the findings in your report. You've done a very deep dive into how Musk made money, which I think is so important for people to understand because often we shorthand it as Tesla stock is down. But there's a lot of other ways, right, that he has benefited and made money. What happens to Musk if Trump follows through on his threats to make his life as difficult as possible?
- [13:51]
Norm Eisen
Essentially, Jen, the benefit to Elon Musk of being the world's richest man and having this panoply of financial interests touching upon the very agencies he was regulating. SpaceX we saw the image of the Rocket X the the social media platform. So much US Government communication is running through X. It's a I xai Tesla, of course, Starlink. Now we have this Starlink and US Data running up through Starlink that's woven into the government. That's been an advantage for him as he regulates these agencies. But it's also a risk for Elon Musk because now Donald Trump's penchant for for revenge is focused on Musk. So it's a two edged sword. It's both an opportunity for profit. We in our new report, Cut to Shreds, we outline the profound ethics questions. We call for an investigation by the Office of Government Ethics. But the other edge of the sword Musk is now at risk of the same kind of targeting that Donald Trump has focused on others.
- [15:06]
Host
You go through a lot of specifics. I want to start with Starlink because we've talked about this a lot on the show too. I mean there's a number of, there have been kind of State Department diplomatic efforts to push Elon Musk's company, Starlink, contracts with it with foreign governments, which is. There's a lot of unethical things happening. That's a pretty unethical one. Is there a way for that to be untangled? I mean, these are foreign government contracts. How do you look at the scope of Elon Musk, how much money he's made from Sterling? And what could happen if those are untangled? If they can be.
- [15:40]
Norm Eisen
The first step is to apply the rule of law, the same rules that you and I when I was the White House ethics czar, you came to those trainings. Can you imagine? We would not even let Barack Obama refinance his house, his modest family home in Chicago, cuz he was regulating the banks. And here you have Elon Musk with examples like our Department of State, our diplomats pushing Starlink, the Musk business. These are profound questions. The Office of Government Ethics, there still are good people who work there, Jen. They have to answer that. Has the government been harnessed to the benefit of Elon Musk? And now we have the second question, which is with the billionaire bro fight today, is the government gonna be turned against Elon Musk?
- [16:40]
Host
Well, that's sort of the question, right? I mean, so your point is they still need to be investigating them, even if Trump is trying to untangle things that are financially benefiting. Let me ask you about something I think Trump could have control over, which is this regulatory scrutiny, right, which you referenced in the report. And it, it feels as you talk about in the report, it's like they've looked the other way, these regulatory agencies. There were cases against a Tesla, a neuralink, others, they seem to evaporate. Could those be reinstated? Could they use to Trump weaponize the regulatory agencies against Musk companies? Is that possible?
- [17:16]
Norm Eisen
It is very concerning that for take Tesla and the investigations of things like the Tesla self driving cars, accidents, profound questions of lives lost. Shouldn't that be getting the same scrutiny? No matter who's in the White House, no matter who. The President's best friend, apparently now his frenemy, former best friend, his ex best friend, it should be the same. That's the idea of the rule of law. So we want that investigation. But, yes, Donald Trump, just like he's done with the law firms, just like he's done with Harvard, just like he's done with labor unions, he's attacked them with executive orders. Donald Trump could turn on Elon Musk. I will, as much as it pains me. You know that saying, I'll fight to the death for your right, even if I disagree with it. If Donald Trump abuses the First Amendment, if he breaks the law, if he unfairly targets Elon Musk, then we have an obligation to say, hey, you have to follow the rule of law. But what irony that Musk, who was egging him on in this revenge attack, that the two of them are in this social media steel cage match.
- [18:36]
Host
Yes. Just to restate, presidents should not be directing regulatory agencies to go after any company. The regulatory agencies are largely independent. But it is an interesting thing to watch if he tries to turn back on these investigations. Let me ask you about what Musk could do here, because that's the other part of it. I mean, one of the storylines here I've been kind of obsessed with. I know you've been obsessed with as well, is them acquiring data. DOGE has been acquiring data. Some of these people are still in the federal government, at least as of tonight. We'll see what happens. How concerned are you about what they could do with that, what Musk could do with all of that data? He's now mad at Donald Trump, he's mad at the administration. What happens with all the data? That's all of our data.
- [19:19]
Norm Eisen
At Democracy Defenders Fund, we now have more than 80 legal matters that we've opened against the Trump administration. Just last week, we had one of the first mini trials, Jen, on this data issue in a Southern District of New York courtroom. We cross examined those who have been manipulating this data, including, by the way, this was about the Office of Personnel Management. Anybody who's worked for the federal government or applied for the federal. A job with the federal government. That was your and my data that was at issue in that courtroom. What access has Musk had? What data might he still have access to? What about these DOGE individuals who he put in government? How are these databases being combined? These are profound questions. Data is power. Will it be used to train AI? Those are the kinds of questions that we need answers to. That's why we had that mini trial last week. And we're gonna keep on going.
- [20:20]
Host
Yeah. And this is something people should just. I know people watching are paying attention to. But now that Musk is mad, he's like an angry who knows what. This is something to pay attention to. I will be. Let me ask you, I mean, Steve Bannon today, I mean, he sent a statement to NBC News today calling for Trump to pull every contract associated with Elon Musk. I mean, Trump himself sort of alluded to maybe he's considering that. Who knows? Also his immigration status, his security clearance and his of drug abuse, as well as look into his relationship with China. That is a lot of things the Justice Department is it is supposed to be independent. It is not independent, I would say in this administration are those things. Are you watching to see if Trump tries to direct the Justice Department to investigate Trump? Follow Steve Bannon's lead here.
- [21:09]
Norm Eisen
Another one of those 80 plus legal matters. We filed a complaint because it should be instead of independent, it's the most dependent. Department of justice, we filed an ethics complaint today with ethics experts from across the country against Pam Bondi because she's politicized. Now, don't you think Pam Bondi tonight is suddenly asking herself, should I go after Elon Musk? That's not right. However, I will say I can't believe I'm agreeing with Steve Bannon. We should look at those very serious allegations published by the New York Times of drug use, including in some of Musk's bizarre. On the COVID of our report on Cut to Shreds, we have Musk slashing the United States Constitution with a chain.
- [22:03]
Host
With a chainsaw cover there an edge you want?
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Norm Eisen
Well, was he on drugs as the New York Times has reported during some of his government service? Does that explain the bizarre behavior that we've seen in our case where we had the mini trial last week on the data the court calling into question saying it was chaotic how Doge accessed this data in the Office of Personnel Management? We need answers to those questions. So even though it seems to have a retaliatory motive, there are some real questions there that need to be and.
- [22:40]
Host
To be clear, I'm not a defender of Musk, but the New York Times reported he did some had extensive drugs use when he was on the campaign. They didn't go as far as the White House, but there's a lot of questions here and a lot of questions they certainly raised. Norm Eisen, this report's coming out tomorrow. We really appreciate an exclusive look at it. I have highlighted it. I just want you to know I remain a nerdy person who loves, you know, highlighters and labels and things like that. Thank you for talking to us. We'll continue to talk to you about all these lawsuits that I'm sure people will continue paying attention to.
- [23:10]
Norm Eisen
Thanks, Jim.
- [23:10]
Host
All right. Elon Musk might be gone, but as we've kind of been talking about the interns or not, allow me to introduce you to Thomas Fugate. He is 22 years old. Five years ago he was a neighborhood gardener. I'm not making that up. Two years ago he worked in a grocery store and Donald Trump just put him in charge of terrorism prevention and working with local communities at the Department of Homeland Security. I'm going to walk you through that insane story story and then talk to the former DHS official who was actually qualified for the job and resigned in protest from that very same job. We'll be right back.
- [23:47]
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- [24:18]
Host
A lot of short daily news podcasts focus on just one story, but right now you probably need more on up first from NPR, we bring you three of the world's top headlines every day in under 15 minutes because no one story can capture all that's happening in this big crazy world of ours on any given morning.
- [24:39]
Claude
Listen now to the upverse podcast from npr.
- [24:47]
Elon Musk
Under President Trump's leadership, we are looking to set a goal of a minimum of 3,000 arrests for ICE every day. And President Trump is going to keep pushing to get that number up higher each and every single day.
- [25:04]
Host
Since Trump aide Stephen Miller announced the Trump administration's new quota system on Fox News just last week, NBC News has learned some pretty alarming and wild details about it. I mean, in mid May, Miller berated and threatened to fire senior ICE officials if they did not begin detaining 3,000 migrants a day. That's a huge demand considering the average was 660 per day during Trump's first 100 days. For months now, the Trump administration has been sending immigration agents out in combat gear and on armored vehicles, on raid operations and to arrest civilian immigrants. The scale of force repeatedly does not match the scale of the threat repeatedly. And it turns out the Trump administration is doing this show of force style arrests so often they've had to pull resources from other agencies to make it happen. NBC News reports that 45% of all FBI agents in the 25 largest FBI field offices have been reorganized to work on immigration full time. Last night on Fox News, Trump's. On Fox News, Trump's FBI Director, Dan Bongino laid out why the Trump administration thinks that is a good use of FBI resources. When I looked at the news today, a million manpower hours on illegal immigrants alone, that's a lot of hours. That's a lot of time. Here's what's happening.
- [26:23]
Bill Braniff
When this small pocket of people, maybe less than 5% of the population, is.
- [26:29]
Host
Committing the overwhelming majority of crimes and you get rid of a good portion of them, they're not here to commit crimes. First of all, why are you screaming at me? But otherwise. That's right. That's their argument. I mean, the Trump administration's theory of the case here is that immigration should be law enforcement's number one priority because they believe immigrants are the ones committing all of the crimes, which is not true at all. Just last year, the Department of Justice itself published a report saying the opposite. The DOJ found that undocumented immigrants are arrested at half the rate of US Citizens for violent crime and a quarter of that rate for property crimes. But, hey, maybe Mr. Bongino doesn't know that statistic because the Justice Department appears to have completely taken that study off of their website. You get this fund notice where those statistics used to be. I wonder why. I wonder why. NBC News also reported yesterday that the Trump administration has launched what they are calling Operation at Large. And the plan pulls in 1800 agents from Homeland Security's investigations unit, 2000 employees from the FBI, the US Marshals Service, and the DEA, and 250 IRS agents. So thousands of people just reassigned, taken off their normal jobs, and tasked simply with rounding up immigrants to meet Stephen Miller's objectives. And all of those resources being put into immigration means there are less resources for everything else. Federal prosecutors told NBC News that cases without immigration components have been stalled or are moving more slowly. At least one U.S. attorney's office abandoned a potential federal prosecution against someone prosecutors felt was dangerous because the case lacked an immigration component. And last week, ProPublica reported that because the Trump administration wants to focus so much on immigration, they are leaving the fight against extremist violence to the states. As Michigan Attorney General Dana Nestle put it, the federal government used to prioritize domestic terrorism, and now it's like domestic terrorism just went away overnight. It certainly did not. To show you how much the Trump administration cares about keeping the country safe, check out who they just appointed to lead the Department of Homeland Security's one of their hubs for terrorism prevention. This guy, this is 22 year old Thomas Fugate, who literally graduated from college last year. And According to his LinkedIn, the bulk of his leadership experience comes from his participation in a club that simulates the United Nations. I am not kidding. Nothing wrong with those clubs, but you're not ready to be in charge of a counterterrorism hub a year later. But pivotally, no threat prevention experience is listed in his employment history. So what exactly made Mr. Fugate right for the role? As ProPublica put it in a new piece, Fugate brings a different qualification prized by the White House. Loyalty to the president. On Instagram, Mr. Fugate traced his political awakening to 2016, which, by the way, he was 13 years old, where he said, quote, in a generation deprived of hope, opportunity and happiness, I saw in one man the capacity for real and lasting change. Donald Trump. Now, just last year, Mr. Fugate spent some time down in Florida celebrating Trump's 78th birthday as part of a fan group called Club 47. People inside DHS said that Mr. Fugate was hired less to run the agency and more as a minder or a babysitter, saying, quote, the White House installed Fugate to oversee a pivot away from traditional counterterrorism lanes and to steer resources toward MAGA friendly sheriffs and border security projects before eventually shuttering operations. The office's mission has changed overnight, with a pivot away from focusing on domestic extremism, especially far right movements. The terrorism category that framed the agency's work for years was abruptly expanded to include drug cartels, part of what DHS staffers call an overarching message that border security is the only mission that matters. Meanwhile, we as a country have seen plenty of actual extremist violence recently. I mean, an arson attack on the governor of Pennsylvania's home, a mass shooting at Florida State University, a car bombing at a fertility clinic in California, two Israeli embassy aides shot dead outside a Jewish museum in Washington, a firebombing attack in Colorado. All of that happened in just the last two months. And now the guy in charge of one of the offices tasked with preventing extremist violence like that is this 22 year old. The previous director of that office was Bill Braniff, an Army veteran with more than two decades of national security experience. He resigned earlier this year, long before this, when the Trump administration started gutting the office. And he has a lot of thoughts about all of this. Bill Braniff joins me after a very quick break to give you a sense of how seriously the Trump administration seems to be taking national security and specifically homeland security threats at this moment. This is the guy they just put in charge of one of the departments that focuses on terrorism prevention at the Department of Homeland Security, Thomas C. Fugate iii, magna cum laude. This is Thomas Fugate. As you just saw, he just got his undergraduate degree last year. The highlights of his resume include internships and Model UN we like model UN but now Trump has put him in charge of one of the departments responsible for helping communities prevent terrorism. What could go wrong? Before he got the position, the previous director was Bill Braniff, an Army veteran with more than two decades of national security experience. He resigned long before this, earlier this year when the Trump administration started gutting the office. And he joins me now. Bill Branagh, thank you so much for being here with me tonight. I think it's so much, so important for people to understand all of the different factions of government, all the things they do. So let me just start by asking you about this office and what exactly the team you used to run is responsible for and how they work with communities.
- [32:39]
Bill Braniff
So I used to be the director of the center for Prevention Programs and Partnerships. And the key word there is partnerships.
- [32:44]
Host
Yeah.
- [32:45]
Bill Braniff
My office partnered with state government officials, local government officials, public health officials, mental health professionals, schools, the law enforcement community to make sure that we are creating upstream prevention programs. These are programs that can do a non criminal justice intervention if someone is gravitating towards violence the way we might do a non criminal justice intervention if someone was gravitating towards suicide. And these programs had amazing promise. We really demonstrated proof of concept. And I think Americans would be really proud of the work that this very multidisciplinary team was doing in partnership with our local partners.
- [33:26]
Host
It's so important for people to understand, I mean, even working government for myself, I didn't do this, obviously, that prevention and working with local communities is such a pivot, part of what the federal government does around the country. Part of you came to the job with two decades of national security experience, which I think was applied in a range of ways. You're working in preventing all sorts of different kinds of violence. How was that applied and why is having that experience important? Obviously they've taken a different approach with your successor of sorts.
- [33:57]
Bill Braniff
Sure. I tried on a whole bunch of different roles for size over the years. I served in the Army, I worked in nuclear counterterrorism. I went to grad school. I spent five years training the FBI, the CIA, the special operations community, the State Department and local law enforcement on counterterrorism issues. And along the way I realized that traditional counterterrorism, while essential, is insufficient. That we needed something else besides responding to already mobilizing violent actors. We needed to figure out how to decrease the number of people who ever got to that point where they wanted to engage in violence. And I started to look around at other professional disciplines. It turns out that our public health community for over three decades has been taking evidence based approaches to other forms of violence prevention, whether that's suicide or intimate partner violence prevention, violence against children. And I just said, well, what if we pick up this, what we've learned from other forms of violence prevention and put it down on this very exotic form of violence that we've, we've said was homeland security business, national security business. And it turns out humans are humans and violence is violence. And a lot of those programs really work. So I actually had to do this for 15 years and realize it wasn't working to know, to look at another group of professionals to find out what.
- [35:19]
Host
Does work experience really matters. You left back in March. That must have been a really hard decision to make at the time. It's a kind of, you've been working and thinking about how to do this effectively for some time. What was that decision like? And are you still in touch with people who are still working in the program now?
- [35:39]
Bill Braniff
Almost every day I'm in touch with my colleagues. It was a dream job. It was a brutally difficult job. Initially we had to change a culture to adopt this public health informed approach. We had to do a lot of internalizing and professional development as a team. But leaving that organization was gutting for me. We had something really special going and the traction we were getting across the country with our partners was remarkable. But eight of my probationary employees were fired wrongfully. They had received an email saying that their performance was lacking. And I can assure you their performance was not lacking. They were extraordinary. Eight of them, eight over a weekend. And I was also notified that I would not be renewed at the end of my first two year tenure. So I knew I was a lame duck. I could sit on my hands for eight weeks or six weeks and hope no one else got fired or I could resign in protest to tell my probationary employees that they matter, that their service matters, that they were not people. I would say we should be discarding in that way. And then I went to work at American University. There's a research lab there that really leads the field in this prevention space. And we are working to recreate this government capability outside of government.
- [37:04]
Host
Bill Braniff, thank you so much. I've been wanting to talk to you since I read about June ProPublica over a week ago. I hope you'll come back and talk to us about that and violence prevention. And I think this is an area people should really keep their eye on. So thank you again.
- [37:15]
Bill Braniff
I would love to. Americans should know that violence is preventable and we can help them from prevent it.
- [37:19]
Host
Thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
- [37:21]
Norm Eisen
Thank you.
- [37:22]
Host
Okay. Coming up, you're going to want to stick around and hear what Lawrence o' Donnell has to say about the Trump must meltdown at the top of the hour. I will be. But first, you might not know the name Zoran Mamdani, but trust me, you will soon. He's running for mayor of New York City. He just got an endorsement from afc and he might just pull off the upset of the year against Andrew Cuomo. We will see. He's standing by and he joins me after a quick break. We'll be right back. Although it's a local race, the New York City Democratic mayoral primary has at times been a litmus test of sorts for the Democratic Party at large. And this one is shaping up to be exactly that. Right now. Former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo is considered the frontrunner among a field of nine Democratic candidates. But closing the gap behind him is zoran Mandani, a 33 year old new York State assemblyman who is a self described Democratic socialist who touts a whole range of progressive policies like free buses, a freeze on rental increases and opening city run grocery stores and paying for it by raising taxes on corporations and the city's wealthiest residents. But Mandani is also not shying away from an even bigger fight should he win the fight against a former New York City resident who now resides in the White House.
- [38:38]
Elon Musk
So I don't think there's any question that there's any mayor here that will be free from being attacked by Donald Trump. What's more important, however, is that we have a mayor who will actually fight back. And that's what I will do. I am Donald Trump's worst nightmare as a progressive Muslim immigrant who actually fights for the things that I believe in.
- [38:58]
Host
That was Mamdani last night during the mayoral debate primary debate. And his performance at the debate appears to have paid off. Today, Mamdani scored a major and much coveted endorsement from Congresswoman Alexander Ocasio Cortez. Joining me now is Democratic New York State Assemblyman Zahra Mamdani who is running to become the next mayor of New York City. So let me just start. You're in the middle of the race. You got less than two weeks to go. Your opponent and the current frontrunner in the race, Andrew Cuomo, said Trump would go through you like a hot knife through butter. He kind of came at you aggressively, which means he must be a little worried. Your response was that. And we just played part of this, that you were Trump's worst nightmare. Tell us why, what's your plan if you were elected and how you would engage with or deal with Trump in the White House. Cuz every New York City mayor has to.
- [39:46]
Elon Musk
You know, I would actually turn the page on what we've seen right now, which is the cowardice on display from Andrew Cuomo. And ultimately it's cowardice, which makes sense given the fact that his super PAC is funded in large part by many of the same billionaires who put Donald Trump in the White House. My campaign, which has now placed me in second place, is one that has been funded by 20,000 people giving an average donation of around $84, which has broken fundraising records in our city and is one that leaves me confident to say that I will fight the Trump administration and the authoritarianism coming out of Washington D.C. and I will fight it because it threatens our city's values, its laws and its people.
- [40:23]
Host
You are a proud progressive, a self described socialist. I just mentioned the AOC endorsement, which a lot of people would want. But you need people who don't identify as either of those to win. So how are you going to build your coalition beyond those?
- [40:40]
Elon Musk
Well, I think it comes back to what Mayor Koch told us all those decades ago, which is that if you agree with me on 9 out of 12 issues, vote for me. 12 out of 12. 12 out of 12. See a psychiatrist. Because ultimately this is a campaign that is focused on one affordability. We're living in the most expensive city in the United States of America and working in middle class New Yorkers, the ones who've built this city out of it. And what I'm asking New Yorkers is to join a movement that will actually make the city affordable. And we'll do it by freezing the rent, more than 2 million rent stabilized tenants, by making the slowest buses in the country fast and free, and by delivering universal childcare to each and every New York family, whether their child is six weeks or five years of age.
- [41:20]
Host
One of those issues the mayor of New York city faces is ICE's widespread arrests and deportations of undocumented immigrants. We've been talking about this a little bit tonight. The current mayor has alluded to this being a federal issue and has been supportive of ICE operating in one of the city's prisons. How would your approach be different?
- [41:37]
Elon Musk
I would bring us back to the sanctuary city policies that have actually kept us safe. You know, these are policies that have been in place for decades, that have been defended by Democrats and Republicans alike, and yet they are ones that the current mayor has fear mongered about. You know, I came to this city and this country when I was seven years old. I grew up in New York City. I fell in love with this city. I got my citizenship in this city. And that was one of the happiest days of my life, swearing in to become an American alongside so many other immigrants. And just that same location in downt Manhattan, a federal plaza is now where ICE agents pulling up masked and unmarked cars are detaining New Yorkers and they're throwing them away in facilities hundreds of miles away. And it's an attack on what makes so many of us proud to not only be New Yorkers, but also Americans.
- [42:23]
Host
You've had an impressive social media campaign. I mean, that's a part, I think you would say this, too, that's kind of propelled you here. You have content in Spanish and Hindi even. What lessons would you like Democrats in all parts of the country to take away from sort of how you've propelled yourself in this race?
- [42:41]
Elon Musk
I would say something that's been guiding us from the beginning has been a desire to break out of the bubble of New York City politics and into the world of New York City. Because too often as politicians, we wait for voters to meet us where we are, when in fact we should be going to them. And that means changing our instinct from lecturing to listening. And you know when New York State had the greatest swing of any state in the country towards Trump, 11 and a half points. And we saw that swing take place far from the caricature of those Trump voters. I went into the heart of immigrant New York City and Fordham Road in the Bronx, Hillside Avenue in Queens, and I asked those voters, why did they vote for Trump and what would it take to bring them back to the Democratic Party? And they told me it was cost of living, it was being able to afford things four years ago that are now out of reach. And they said they would come back if there was a relentless focus on an economic agenda. And that's the campaign I've been running, one that is focused each and every day on how to make this city affordable.
- [43:33]
Host
You seem remarkably awake for somebody who's been not this close to a primary election. But Zoram Mandani, thank you so much for joining me tonight. I really appreciate it.
- [43:42]
Elon Musk
It's such a pleasure.
- [43:42]
Host
Coming up, Lawrence is going to talk to Congressman Jamie Raskin about the Trump musk blow up. He is not going to hold back. But first, a big controversy over what documents a president did or didn't sign. And no, I'm not talking about Joe Biden. We'll be right back. For no particular reason at all, I wanted to bring up some video from a couple of months ago. No reason. Kind of just felt like it. It's Donald Trump answering question, a question about a significant proclamation. This judge, he wants to know why.
- [44:16]
Nicole Wallace
The proclamation was signed in the dark.
- [44:19]
Donald Trump
I don't know when it was signed because I didn't sign it. Other people handled it weird.
- [44:23]
Host
He doesn't think he signed a thing that he signed. Okay, I guess that could happen. But in general, I'm sure Trump is very aware of the things that he signs. Right? I mean, here's another video of Trump getting ready to sign an executive order.
- [44:35]
Donald Trump
Are we doing something about the regulatory in here?
- [44:38]
Host
Oh, yes, sir, you are, sir.
- [44:40]
Donald Trump
That's going to be a big factor.
- [44:41]
Host
Yes, sir. That issue I just described will be addressed in this EO and many other issues that we don't have time with the president to cover things the state.
- [44:51]
Donald Trump
Is very, we've contemplated just about everything. Right.
- [44:55]
Host
Okay, never mind. Maybe Trump isn't always so sure exactly what he's signing. Just a little food for thought that does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue Sky, Instagram and TikTok for now. Goodbye from Washington and we'll see you next week.
- [45:14]
Nicole Wallace
MSNBC presents a new original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with Jason Bateman and Rachel Maddow.
- [45:24]
Host
We are in a really important moment and we're an important place in it. And I'm glad that we're there together.
- [45:30]
Nicole Wallace
The Best People with Nicole Wallace, Episodes one and two are available now for early access, ad free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcast.