Musk melts down over budget bill; Republicans in turmoil over their own bill

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Musk Melts Down Over Budget Bill; Republicans in Turmoil Over Their Own Bill"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Briefing with Jen Psaki
• Host/Author: MSNBC
• Description: Jen Psaki tackles the biggest issues of the week and features one-on-one interviews with newsmakers.
• Episode: Musk Melts Down Over Budget Bill; Republicans in Turmoil Over Their Own Bill
• Release Date: June 5, 2025

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1. Introduction

The episode delves into the escalating tensions between Elon Musk and the Republican Party, particularly surrounding the newly proposed budget bill. Additionally, it examines President Donald Trump's reinstatement of a controversial travel ban and the internal strife within the Republican ranks over their own legislative measures.

2. Trump's Renewed Travel Ban

President Donald Trump has revitalized one of his most contentious policies by announcing a travel ban targeting twelve countries: Afghanistan, Burma, Chad, Republic of the Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen. Additionally, the administration has partially restricted travel from seven more nations. This move mirrors the initial travel ban from Trump's first term, which had sparked nationwide protests and multiple court challenges.

Notable Quote:

• Rachel Maddow (00:30): “Tonight, Donald Trump decided to basically bring back one of the most controversial policies from his first term...”

The ban is perceived as a strategic maneuver to divert attention from the ongoing conflict between Trump and Elon Musk, as well as internal Republican disagreements over the budget bill.

3. Elon Musk's Conflict with Republicans over the Budget Bill

Elon Musk has publicly criticized the Republican-led budget bill, which he argues adversely affects his business interests. The bill includes provisions that eliminate electric vehicle tax credits benefiting Tesla, restrict Starlink’s expansion due to FAA regulations, and block the nomination of a pro-Musk ally to lead NASA.

Notable Quotes:

• Rachel Maddow (01:50): “Elon Musk started using his massive social media reach to attack Donald Trump and the Republican Party in incredibly direct terms...”
• Elon Musk on X (03:01): “He’s here for the long haul. And he's not the only one.”

Since the beginning of the year, Tesla’s stock has declined by more than 12%, partly attributed to sustained protests against Musk’s businesses and his recent exit from Washington.

4. Republican Leadership's Response

Republican leaders, particularly Speaker Mike Johnson, are caught in a delicate position, needing support from both Trump and influential figures like Musk. Johnson expressed surprise at Musk's sudden opposition and is striving to mend the rift.

Notable Quotes:

• Mike Johnson (05:30): “Elon and I left on a great note...”
• Mike Johnson (07:06): “We credit him with all the big changes with Doge and everything else. It's curious to me what happened this week.”

Despite efforts to reconcile, Musk’s persistent criticism poses a significant challenge for Republican leadership.

5. Senator Chris Murphy on the Budget Bill

Senator Chris Murphy vehemently opposes the budget bill, labeling it a "grift from top to bottom." He argues that the legislation disproportionately harms 40% of Americans by eliminating essential services and increasing the national debt by $2.4 trillion over the next decade.

Notable Quotes:

• Chris Murphy (02:30): “I love democracy and I love this country.”
• Chris Murphy (14:42): “The entire administration is a grift from top to bottom...”

Murphy emphasizes that the bill’s primary beneficiaries are the wealthy, while ordinary Americans face significant losses in healthcare, energy costs, and food assistance.

6. Impact of the Budget Bill on Americans

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projects that the budget bill will result in nearly 11 million Americans losing their health insurance, increase energy bills by up to $400 annually, and reduce access to SNAP benefits for approximately 4 million people. These measures are intended to fund tax cuts for the wealthy, making the bill highly unpopular among the general populace.

Notable Quotes:

• Rachel Maddow (10:32): “That's how Republicans are ticking through right now.”
• Rachel Maddow (11:05): “That price includes nearly 11 million people losing their health insurance...”

Murphy calls for nationwide mobilization to counteract the bill’s adverse effects, urging citizens to pressure their representatives to vote against it.

7. Senator Amy Klobuchar on the Travel Ban and Budget Bill

Senator Amy Klobuchar addresses the renewed travel ban, highlighting its moral and economic repercussions. She criticizes the blanket approach of banning individuals from entire countries, emphasizing the need for individualized vetting processes. Klobuchar also discusses the broader implications of the budget bill on SNAP benefits and agricultural communities.

Notable Quotes:

• Amy Klobuchar (36:57): “I think sending them back or leaving them where they are...”
• Amy Klobuchar (39:14): “I call it the Big Beautiful betrayal.”

Klobuchar underscores the hardship the bill imposes on rural communities, independent grocery stores, and farmers, advocating for more nuanced and humane policies.

8. Republican Criticism of CBO Analysis

Republican figures, including Congressman Jason Smith, have attempted to undermine the credibility of the CBO’s negative assessment of the budget bill, labeling it as partisan. However, fact-checkers from reputable sources like the Washington Post have debunked these claims, affirming the nonpartisan nature of the CBO.

Notable Quotes:

• Mike Johnson (33:35): “They are historically totally unreliable. It’s run by Democrats.”
• Rachel Maddow (34:36): “The Washington Post fact checker gave the White House's claims about the CBO being a political entity four Pinocchios.”

9. Miles Taylor on Trump's Weaponization of Executive Orders

Miles Taylor, a former Department of Homeland Security official, discusses how President Trump has been using executive orders to target individuals and institutions critical of his administration. Taylor describes this tactic as “weaponization,” aiming to create leverage and instill fear, thereby controlling and silencing opposition.

Notable Quotes:

• Miles Taylor (23:58): “Donald Trump... wants to have leverage over them so he can have control...”
• Miles Taylor (25:14): “He wants to have leverage over companies or universities...”

Taylor warns of the dangerous precedent this sets, where individuals and organizations are threatened with legal actions to coerce compliance with Trump’s policies.

10. Conclusions and Call to Action

The episode underscores the critical juncture the Republican Party faces, grappling with internal dissent and external pressures from powerful figures like Elon Musk. The proposed budget bill poses substantial risks to millions of Americans, necessitating vigorous activism and public mobilization to prevent its passage. Simultaneously, Trump's renewed travel ban and the misuse of executive orders signal a troubling trend towards authoritarian tactics, further fragmenting the political landscape.

Notable Quotes:

• Rachel Maddow (17:43): “Americans won't just lose their health insurance. Their energy bills may also go up by as much as $400 per year...”
• Chris Murphy (19:36): “We couldn't be preparing for the 2026 election. It might not come on. All of our focus right now has to be on protecting the democracy, about stopping the corruption.”

Listeners are encouraged to stay informed, engage in activism, and support organizations and legislative efforts that uphold democratic principles and protect vulnerable populations from the adverse impacts of the proposed legislation.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

MSNBC presents a new original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, she sits down with Jason Bateman and Rachel Maddow.

[Rachel Maddow]

We are in a really important moment and we're an important place in it, and I'm glad that we're there together.

[Nicole Wallace]

The Best People with Nicole Wallace. Episodes one and two are available now for early access, ad free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Rachel Maddow]

Tonight, Donald Trump decided to basically bring back one of the most controversial policies from his first term. From very early in his first term. Tonight, the president announced he's banning travel from 12 countries. Afghanistan, Burma, Chad, Republic of the Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen. He also partially restricted travel from seven more countries. And all of this is an echo of the travel ban he instituted in his first term, one that sparked understandable nationwide protests and a series of court challenges. This is also exactly the kind of provocative action we have come to expect from Trump when he wants to lash out and change the subject. We'll talk about it. But there's other things we're going to talk about too, because for at least the third time in his life, Donald Trump appears to be going through a pretty brutal and very public divorce. I mean, just a few days ago, after being just a few, I mean, days after being celebrated in the Oval Office, I should say, Elon Musk started using his massive social media reach to attack Donald Trump and the Republican Party in incredibly direct terms. Not just one time wasn't a one off in dozens of separate posts. And if you're wondering why Elon Musk is so mad all of a sudden, a lot. Very mad. I think it's worth remembering why he was driven out of Washington in the first place. Relentless, persistent public pushback against not just the work of Doge, but also the company's Musk runs. People across the country came out in droves to register their anger with Elon Musk and his Doge operation. They held big, sustained protests at Tesla dealerships everywhere. You can see a bunch of them on your screen now, helping to drive down the stock price of Elon Musk's company. And those protests have not let up since Musk announced his exit. Even that, even then, just to give you a taste, this was Golden Valley, Minnesota, the day after Musk announced his exit.

[Chris Murphy]

I love democracy and I love this country.

[Nicole Wallace]

Bill Henson and a group of 150 or so are doing what they've done every Saturday for the last 18 weeks. This group says their protest outside a Tesla car dealership a way to share their frustration with the federal government.

[Chris Murphy]

If I can stop one person or make one person think about not buying a Tesla and putting more money in his pocket, I'm happy to do that.

[Nicole Wallace]

And while many here are upset with Elon Musk, they don't see his departure as a reason to stop.

[Chris Murphy]

This is a long game. This is not something, oh, Elon steps away from, steps away from. Doge. Doesn't matter. I'm here for the long haul. I'm not going anywhere.

[Rachel Maddow]

He's here for the long haul. And he's not the only one. It's also not just protests. I mean, the numbers tell a pretty stark story for Musk. Since the beginning of the year, Tesla stock is down more than 12% just since the beginning of the year. Musk was never going to stay forever in Washington. I mean, there was a time limit even that on his stint as a special government employee. But if you're wondering why Elon Musk has suddenly soured on Washington, it might have something to do with that in the richest man in the world has watched as companies he runs, specifically Tesla, have found themselves in a bit of a downward spiral. Seriously, the more you dig into this whole feud, the more it seems like this is really all about Musk's own financial well being. Source familiar with Musk and Trump's relationship tells NBC News that Musk's temper tantrum essentially boils down to a few key factors. One, Trump's big, ugly budget bill kills electric vehicle tax credits that benefit Musk's company, Tesla. Yes, the one whose stock has gone down by 12%. Two, Musk is upset that Trump isn't helping his other company, Starlink, take over the FAA's control system. Three, Trump has pulled the nomination of Musk's friend and ally to serve as the head of NASA, a move that likely would have benefited Musk's other company, SpaceX. Those are some of the things that makes him mad. And all of that has driven Musk to completely lash out on his social media platform. I mean, just the past two days on X, he has called the bill massive, outrageous, pork filled, and a disgusting abom. He's posted multiple times saying the bill would drive America into debt slavery. And he's implored people to call their senators and members of Congress to kill the bill. He even posted this promo for Quentin Tarantino's 2003 blockbuster, Kill Bill. Get it? I mean, I have to hand it to him. I don't always agree with him, but that's kind of creative. Now it's fallen on Republican congressional leaders to basically deal with all this fallout from all of this. You may be wondering, how does someone like Mike Johnson, a smooth operator that he is, handle a fight between two implacable wealthy man children when he needs both of them to support him? Well, I'm just gonna show you here. Was Mike Johnson today trying to explain what exactly happened with Elon Musk?

[Mike Johnson]

Elon and I left on a great note. We were texting one another, you know, happy texts, you know, Monday and then. And then Yesterday, you know, 24 hours later, he does a 180 and he comes out and opposed the bill. And it surprised me, frankly. I'll tell you, I called Elon last night and he didn't answer. But I hope to talk to him today. I mean, it's not, you know, it's very friendly, and we can. And we've laughed about our differences on policy before. I'm not upset about this. We've got to get it done. And I think Elon understands the weight of that. And I hope he comes around. I'd love to talk to him this week and hope he calls him back today.

[Rachel Maddow]

Oof. I mean, even the guys in back of him look awkward because it seems like Elon Musk is ghosting the speaker of the House, leaving mine read, as the kids say these days, or that's what they tell me. Now, Mike Johnson sounds a little nervous about that. I mean, even in his shown a little desperate. So maybe he figured I'm gonna make Elon jealous by talking about how often Trump returns my calls.

[Mike Johnson]

I talk to President Trump, you know, all the time, multiple times a day. Obviously, we've talked about this. As you know, he's not delighted that elon did a 180 on that. But look, I don't know what happened in 24 hours.

[Rachel Maddow]

I mean, there is a lot to unpack there. The he's not delighted that elon did a 180 is quite a way to phrase it. And yes, the I talk to Trump all the time, multiple times a day sounds, well, again, kind of desperate. So maybe he figured I'm going to try flattering him a lot while also just dissembling in front of everyone at the same time.

[Mike Johnson]

Let me just address the Elon controversy and tell you that I consider Elon a friend. He's obviously brilliant. I just told you. We credit him with all the big changes with Doge and everything else. It's curious to me what happened this week. And I just, I mean, Full disclosure. Elon and I had a great conversation, about a half hour long talk on Monday. And Elon was encouraged by that conversation. We had a great, it was a very friendly, very fruitful conversation together. And he and I talked about the midterm elections and he said, I'm going to help.

[Rachel Maddow]

Okay. It was kind of a shaky start in the beginning, but Speaker Johnson did manage to land on an area of agreement between him and Musk. He says Musk promised him on Monday that Musk would help Republicans win the midterms. That sounds promising for him. Except then on Tuesday, Musk once again tweeted about Congressional Republicans saying, quote, in November next year we fire all politicians who betrayed the American people. Again, that was in response to a tweet about Republicans. So it doesn't actually sound like Mike Johnson and Elon Musk are on the same page about the midterms at all, does it? The truth is the problems for Speaker Johnson and Donald Trump extend well beyond just Elon Musk. Because every day more and more Republicans are finding something they do not like in this big ugly bill. And there is a lot that do not like. I mean, for instance, here was Marjorie Taylor Greene, who voted for the bill, talking last night about a provision that would ban states from regulating AI for 10 years. That was one section that was two pages that I didn't see. And I'm being very transparent and honest about it with everyone. But I find it so problematic that I'm willing to come forward and admit that those are two pages that I didn't read. Those were the only two pages of over 1,000 I didn't read. Just those two. I don't believe it. But the point is, when you have to work a little to get Marjorie Taylor Greene to vote for the MAGA agenda because she's upset about something, you know, it's more of an uphill climb than maybe you planned for if you're Mike Johnson. There are plenty of senators expressing their frustrations too. I mean, here was Ron Johnson last night on that same program.

[Miles Taylor]

You just brought up Musk. He called it a massively outrageous pork filled congressional spending bill. A disgusting abomination. Those who voted for it, you know you did wrong. You know it's wrong. Do you agree with Musk?

[Chris Murphy]

It doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't. He's telling the truth. You know, that's all I'm doing too. We're arguing over twigs and leaves when the forest is on fire. I won't vote for the House version. That's Very clear.

[Miles Taylor]

I won't.

[Rachel Maddow]

Doubling down on Musk there. I mean, look, as enjoyable as it is to watch Republicans and Elon Musk start torturing the president over his signature legislation and each other in the process, the fact is that at the end of the day, this bill does stand a good chance of passing in some form, and here's why. I mean, Republicans control both the House and the Senate, and also many of these same Republicans have mastered the art of clutching their pearls and complaining in public while then ultimately voting for things that they expressed concern about. And they may do that here again. So how this all ends will depend less on what Musk and the Republican holdouts do and much more on how the American people mobilized against the bill. Here was Democratic Senator Chris Murphy making exactly that point earlier today.

[Chris Murphy]

Well, I mean, of course, the bill is a piece of shit, but Elon Musk isn't trying to protect, you know, my constituents that are going to lose their health care. He's not trying to protect poor children who are going to lose their nutritional benefits. He's just trying to get rich. Ultimately, you know, we have to mobilize the entire country around how disastrous this bill is. So we've got to do the work of making sure that Republicans know they're going to pay a price if they vote for something this immoral and this unpopular.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Murphy is right. I mean, Elon is upset because this bill does not enrich him personally, plain and simple. There's lots of evidence to that and lots of reporting. He doesn't care that millions of Americans will suffer as a result of this big, ugly bill. And I promise I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that. I mean, just today, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office released an updated report on the price that Americans will pay if Trump's big, ugly bill passes the Senate. That price includes nearly 11 million people losing their health insurance. 11 million for no reason other than to fund Trump's tax cuts for the ultra rich. And if you want to picture what 11 million people losing their insurance looks like, it's like if everyone living in Alaska, Hawaii, Idaho, Wyoming, Nevada, West Virginia, Montana, and North Dakota all lost their health insurance. That's how many it is. And Americans won't just lose their health insurance. Their energy bills may also go up by as much as $400 per year, according to several independent studies published this year. In a previous report, the CBO also estimated that nearly 4 million people could lose access to SNAP benefits. So no health insurance, higher energy bills, and less access to food for low income families. That's basically the checklist that Republicans are ticking through right now. Did I also mention that the new CBO analysis says that Trump's big ugly bill is projected to add $2.4 trillion. Yes, trillion with a T to the national debt over the next 10 years? Isn't it convenient, by the way, how many of the self proclaimed fiscal hawks immediately stop clutching their pearls about the deficit as soon as they regain power? That's what's happening here, too. Setting that aside, though, it's abundantly clear that this bill is a much bigger problem for Republicans than Elon Musk. Americans will catch up to the reality of this Republican agenda and I have a funny feeling they will not like it. We're already seeing that. I mean, some people have already begun to stand up and protest against this bill. Like the folks you see here. They protested outside of Republican Congressman Nick Langworthy's office in New York last week. Langworthy voted for the bill in the House. He expressly supports it. And. And they want to let him know that for those reasons, he does not represent them. A similar protest took place yesterday in Spokane, Washington. Medical workers held a hands off health care protest in response to the bill. One of the protesters can be seen holding a sign that says, Michael, grow a spine. That may be one of my favorites. The Michael in question is of course, Republican Congressman Michael Baumgartner, who also voted for the bill that passed in the House. So when the bill does pass the Senate, if it passes the Senate, not if, but when, really, because it will very likely pass, activism will be all the more crucial. Remember, the American people basically managed to drive Elon Musk out of Washington. Now they have a chance to do the same for every Republican who supports this bill. Senator Chris Murphy is standing by and he joins me in just 90 seconds. Joining me now is Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Senator, we just played a clip of you today on the Hill and I want to just ask. Elon Musk has tweeted or retweeted nearly 40 times about his opposition to the big ugly bill. By our account, maybe it's more now over the last 15 minutes, who knows? You've been pretty clear this is an altruism on his part. I don't think so either. Tell us more about what you think is really behind it and what, if any, impact you think it could have on Republicans in the Senate.

[Chris Murphy]

I mean, the entire administration is a grift from top to bottom. So everybody that's close to Donald Trump is close to him because they want to become rich and they want Donald Trump to make them rich. And that's always been the center of this alliance between Musk and Donald Trump, that Musk is going to get government contracts. Musk is going to get sort of secret exclusive access to the kind of data that he needs to get advantage on his competitors. And it appears that he didn't get everything that he wanted in this to help his companies. And so he's throwing a temper tantrum. He's trying to burn the bill down because, you know, at least for him, the grift is not as worth it, as lucrative as it was, you know, just a couple months ago. So you have to understand, none of this is on the level. I mean, this is all about a bunch of thieves stealing from us. And when the thieves don't get the cut that they were promised, then they get angry. You know, we've seen this movie many times before. Quentin Tarantino has done it very well. The impact that this has, I don't know. You know, in the end, this is a, you know, this is a one boss party, Donald Trump. And so, yeah, Musk may make stuff difficult on them in the short run, and it's certainly like, you know, good for TV ratings and clicks, but I think Donald Trump basically tells the Republican Party how high to jump and they follow orders. So as you said in the opening, it's just probably true that some version of this bill passes the Senate, even if Elon Musk is crapping on it, because Trump is the boss, which is.

[Rachel Maddow]

And what we're about to see, and I suspect you'll agree with me on this one, is people who have expressed concern about Medicaid cuts and the horrible impact this will have on Americans somehow dial themselves back and find a way to support it. I don't want that to be the case, but I think it's important we're clear eyed about that possibility. Right?

[Chris Murphy]

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's, I think that's, that's right. There's often a lot of hand wringing from Senate Republicans, but they tend to follow orders. That being, you know, we were all around in the beginning of 2017, 2018, when everybody assumed that the repeal of the Affordable Care act was going to pass because it was their number one agenda item. Just like right now, these Medicaid cuts throwing 15 million people off their insurance is their number one agenda item. And because we mobilized all over the country, we actually defeated that bill not in the House, but in the Senate. We got just enough senators, we Needed three back then. We need just one more now, four. And the harm is really no different. Back then, we were talking about 20 million people losing their Obamacare coverage. Today, CBO just clarified that the high estimate is 16 million people, so about the same number of Americans losing their health care. So I don't, I haven't given up on this. I know how powerful Trump is. But I think we could mobilize over the course of the next month to convince four Senate Republicans to either vote against this thing or at least to demand that the Medicaid cuts get rolled dramatically back.

[Rachel Maddow]

No question. And activism hugely matters. That's a perfect example of it. It matters both in pressuring people, but it also matters in telling the story of the impact of things. As you were saying on the Hill today. And you just launched a new pac, the American Mobilization Project. And one of them, there's lots of interesting things about this, but one of the most interesting things to me is there are a lot of PACs out there doing all sorts of things. But yours is fundraising primarily for voter registration of young people and for groups like one that mobilizes people out there who are doing peaceful protests. I know that one of the first things groups you're supporting is one that's mobilizing doctors and nurses to support Medicaid. Tell me why you've decided for that to be your focus.

[Chris Murphy]

Yeah, so, you know, lots of my colleagues have these political action committees, and normally they're used to support candidates and, you know, support the, you know, individual senators, travel around the country. This one is different. The money we're raising here is going straight to groups on the ground that are mobilizing and going to be a big commitment. We started off with $400,000 pledged to these youth groups that are organizing against the corruption, and then these doctors and nurses that are organizing as voices against the Medicaid cuts. And we're, you know, targeting to try to spend over $2 million just on protest and mobilization. Because, you know, my theory, Jen, we can't be preparing for the 2026 election. It might not come on. All of our focus right now has to be on protecting the democracy, about stopping the corruption. And so I'm trying to sort of model something for my colleagues. Instead of, you know, raising money and hoarding it to spend in the next election, let's raise money and spend it right now on the streets. So, yeah, people can go to, you know, my website, chrismurphy.com you can learn more about American Mobilization Project. And if you choose to support it that money's going to go straight to the ground to support the kind of protests that we're going to need if we have any chance of stopping these Medicaid cuts.

[Rachel Maddow]

We'll keep looking out for those protests of those doctors and nurses. I'm sure you'll share them with us, too. Before I let you go, I wanted to ask you, when we started the show, I mentioned this. Trump signed a new travel ban targeted at 12 different countries. The ban is going to go into effect on Monday. It's a much bigger travel ban than what Trump issued during his first term. I mentioned it feels to me it's important for people to understand what it is. No doubt people will be impacted, of course, in these countries, but also an effort to distract from what's happening with this bill and Elon Musk and a lot of the disarray that's happening within the party and frankly within the White House. But what do you make of it?

[Chris Murphy]

Okay, it's so important we talk about this because this is the whole game, is that the actual agenda here is to steal from us. The actual agenda is to steal from regular Americans in order to pad the pockets of the rich. So what does this bill do? It actually costs money for 40% of the American public. You get poorer. If you were in the box, 40% and the richest families get a tax cut of $270,000. Okay, nobody wants that. That's super unpopular. So how do you get that done? You distract people by making them think that they're at war with other Americans, making them think that they have something to fear from people who look different from them or speak a different language. This is what demagogues have done all throughout time, is to divide us from each other, make us feel like we need to be fighting ourselves while on the side they're stealing from us, either through legis, like we're debating in the Senate today, or old fashioned thievery has also been happening in this administration as well. So, yeah, understand that this is important. You know, anytime you ban people coming to the United States from other countries, it has a real impact. But it is chiefly in service of trying to get us all talking about that or talking about the Biden investigation they launched today, instead of talking about the centerpiece of this story, which is this bill to make the rich even richer at the expense of everybody else.

[Rachel Maddow]

I could not agree with you more. We're going to keep talking about this bill and we're not even going to talk about all the random things that he posts who knows over the next couple of hours, because that's exactly what he's trying to do. Senator Chris Murphy, thank you for launching your pac. Thank you for explaining it and for being here with us to really talk about the things that matter tonight. Really appreciate it. Coming up, Donald Trump has gone after universities, he's gone after media organizations, and he's gone after law firms. The dudes only used executive orders to go after two individual people by name. Miles Taylor is one of them. And even as Donald Trump accuses him of treason, Miles Taylor is not backing down. He joins me here at the table when we come back. We've seen Donald Trump use executive power to go after universities like Harvard, large law firms he sees as too friendly to his political enemies and even individual people. You may remember two months ago, Trump signed an executive order specifically targeting someone who spoke out during his first administration. Former chief of staff at the Department of Homeland Security, Miles Taylor. The order called Taylor treasonous and stated that he was in possible violation of the Espionage act, suspended his security clearance, and directed the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with any other relevant agency heads, take all appropriate action to review Miles Taylor's activities as a government. So that was the President of the United States issuing an executive order, directing an investigation into someone because he wrote and said critical things about him. That is weaponization. But in this moment, every university, every law firm, and every individual basically has a choice. Are they going to bow to the unwarranted and often illegal demands, or are they going to fight back? Well, Miles Taylor has chosen to fight back. Yesterday he sent a letter to the inspectors general for Homeland Security and the Justice Department requesting that they look into how their agencies have responded to Trump's egregious order. Joining me now is Miles Taylor. Thank you for being here. This is incredibly courageous with what you were doing and not an easy thing, I know, on you and your family. And just to restate, I know a lot of people watching have been following this and following the details of it, but to your knowledge, Trump has only issued the order to threaten to criminally investigate you. You have no idea to what extent DHS or DOJ have acted on it and what, if anything, you're being investigated for, right?

[Miles Taylor]

Precisely. And I can't think of a case. And legal scholars tell me they can't think of a case where an individual has not only been investigated for First Amendment protected speech in the United States, but doesn't know what the crime is they're being investigated for. But I want to note one thing. At the top end, Jen, you know, you mentioned this happened two months ago. If I was a viewer, I would say, oh, why the hell did it take Miles Taylor two months to go push back? This is the reality of a situation like this. It is terrifying. It does rock your entire personal life. And you have to think, man, do I really want to go out there and fight this? Is it worth it? But at the end of the day, my wife and I concluded if we don't, it makes it so much easier for them to do this to more people and people who may not have the network or the support to push back against something like this. And we saw it with the law firms. If none of those law firms had pushed back, then guess what? In the United States, the new standard would be, you have to cut a deal with the president if you want to practice law here. But a couple of brave firms pushed back the universities that are pushing back. It's really important. And so that's why it took us two months is to think through, okay, what does this mean? What are the implications here if we cower and stay silent or if we try to do something about it?

[Rachel Maddow]

I mean, executive orders, they've been used in both of the administrations. I worked in the one, the past one you worked in. We'll talk about one of those shortly. They're used by presidents, but they've never been used in this way to weaponize against individuals and people. As we've just been talking about. What do you think Trump's endgame is here, not just against individuals like yourself, but against law firms and universities. What is he trying to get at here?

[Miles Taylor]

I can tell you very specifically because he would talk about it in meetings with us, as he would say he learned in business, you got to find a way to get leverage over someone, right? You don't sue them. You don't threaten to sue them, because then they'll say and they'll ignore you. You sue them, actually, and then they settle with you whether you have a case or not. That was almost verbatim what he told us on one occasion in the Oval Office. That's his policy now, not just with foreign governments, but institutions in his own country, whether it's companies or universities. And beyond is he wants to have leverage over them so he can have control, and that leverage creates fear. And it makes it so much easier to go down the list and not actually have to prosecute the next person or the next organization because they saw what happened to the other guy. I mean, right now, there's universities in this country that are watching what's happening to Harvard, watching what just got announced with Columbia University, and they're saying, you know, I don't really want to end up in that mix, so maybe it's not worth us getting too far forward and they start to censor themselves. That's exactly what this White House wants.

[Rachel Maddow]

And that's what he wants from you and people like you to not speak out, to be fearful of doing that. He wants.

[Miles Taylor]

I think that's what's really insidious about these individualized executive orders. Of course I'm biased. It's blown up my life. But this is so much bigger than Miles Taylor, because if they start doing the same thing they've done with organizations to individuals, which is where this could go. Imagine the effects if Donald Trump today called Tim Cook at Apple and said, you know, Tim, we might be putting out an investigative order against you, but you could prevent that if you do X, Y, or Z to support my tariffs. Or he'd go to a small business owner he doesn't like that, votes Democratic and does bundlers for Democrats. And he could have a third party make that same threat. There's no limit to where this can go if people don't come out and say this is blatantly unconstitutional. Presidents do not have this power, and that's why we're taking the first step in that direction. But it's hard. I mean, we wouldn't have been able to do this without outside support. There's great organizations. One group launched a legal defense fund for us called endpresidentialrevenge.org we're really lucky for that. People are literally crowdsourcing our defense. But is the 50th person on that list gonna have those resources? If this happens to a thousand people, are they gonna have those resources? No. So if we don't stop it now, this thing will work, and they'll be able to swing this bludgeon against anyone the President doesn't like. That's so patently un American.

[Rachel Maddow]

Everyone won't have those resources. Because a lot of these law firms have buckled. Right. Which is a reality. An important part of the story. I just mentioned this in the opening, but you've asked the inspectors general to investigate this. Do you have any belief they will?

[Miles Taylor]

I don't have any belief that they won't. But look, this is a test that they won't.

[Rachel Maddow]

You think they could.

[Miles Taylor]

They could. They could not. And it's a test of one of the last remaining guardrails. I mean, Congress, a Very long time ago put inspectors general into the executive branch for a reason, to give us insight on whether agencies are doing their jobs, whether there's waste, fraud and abuse, or whether they're violating the constitutional rights of Americans. And so they're there for a reason. And if we find out that on such an obviously unconstitutional order that those inspectors general cannot do their jobs, are unable or unwilling to do their jobs, then another light has gone out in our democratic oversight system and structure.

[Rachel Maddow]

Even though he's fired 17 of them since the start.

[Miles Taylor]

And that's what we're worried about. It sends a message of intimidation to those IGs, no question.

[Rachel Maddow]

Let me ask you about the travel ban. I was just speaking with Senator Chris Murphy about this because my view is this is. It's important for people to understand, obviously impacts people who are in these countries significantly. But this is what Trump does. I mean, when things are falling apart, he's in kind of a duel or divorce with Elon Musk. His bill is having some trouble. He likes to throw a big shiny other object for people to talk about. What do you think it's about and what are the dangers of it?

[Miles Taylor]

I think it's part and parcel of the thing we just talked about. I think it's an effort to get leverage over these countries. I was there for the debate around the first travel ban. I remember when the first travel ban came out, just before I went into the Trump administration, I was on Capitol Hill and the order was so obviously written in a way that was unconstitutional. We were stunned by it. Republicans on Capitol Hill, we thought this is one of the craziest things for them to put out. In the beginning. They put out different iterations of it. The only reason the last iteration survived when it went up to the Supreme Court is because the Supreme Court said, well, departments and agencies did an actual intelligence based review about countries where terrorists might be trying to slip in through the immigration flows. It was very narrowly targeted at the end game. But that's not what Donald Trump wanted. I was there in the meetings with him. Donald Trump, and he talked about this privately and publicly. On wanted to sanction dozens of countries with the travel ban. Why? Because it would give him leverage over those countries, financial leverage. They would have to cut a deal with him if they wanted their citizens to be able to come to the United States. It's what we're seeing him do on tariffs. It's what we're seeing him do with defense spending and NATO and treaties. That's another way for him to have leverage over countries. And pretty soon, if we allow that to go forward, it's just foreign policy by coercion, which is not how American foreign policy has operated.

[Rachel Maddow]

Miles Taylor, thank you for being here. Thank you for having the courage and to your wife, too, for standing up. It is not easy to do. I really appreciate you coming in and talking to me about it.

[Miles Taylor]

Thank you, Jen. We appreciate it.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. And coming up, what do Republicans do when cold hard data exposes how damaging their policies are? I'm going to tell you exactly what they do after a very quick break. It is one of the most important jobs you have likely never heard of. All across the country, the Bureau of Labor Statistics employs hundreds of on the ground economists. They go to grocery stores and gas stations and hair salons, basically anywhere American consumers go, and they check prices. And that national scavenger hunt of sorts is the key to the US's ability to measure how much inflation is rising or falling at any given month, which is why it was so alarming when I saw this headline in the Wall Street Journal today. Economists raise questions about quality of U.S. inflation data. The Bureau of Labor Statistics told outside economists this week that a hiring freeze at the agency was forcing the survey to cut back on the number of businesses where it checks prices in places like Lincoln, Nebraska, and Provo, Utah, and Buffalo, New York. The bureau has just stopped collecting data altogether because it doesn't have the staff to collect the data. One economist warned the bureau was having to turn to less effective methods to fill in the blanks. And by that, he literally means that the bureau has increased the use of educated guesses where they don't have data. What could go wrong there? I mean, today Politico was first to report that the Trump administration and officials from the Trump administration delayed and redacted a trade report they did not like. Trump has been pushing his tariffs by claiming that they will reduce the US Trade deficit over and over and over again. That's his message. But the U.S. department of Agriculture was set to release a report that predicted that Trump's economic policies would actually increase the nation's trade deficit when it came to farm goods this year, as Politico put it, the politically inconvenient data prompted administration officials to block publication of the written analysis normally attached to the report because they disliked what it said about the deficit. What we don't know can't hurt us, right? Today, the Congressional Budget Office came out with its latest analysis of Trump's big, ugly budget bill. And the CBO's data showed that Trump's bill will add $2.4 trillion to the deficit. We've been talking about this through the course of the show and toss more than 10 million people off their health insurance. The CBO's data has shown this bill was a stinker for a long time. But rather than change the bill, Republicans have been attacking the cbo.

[Mike Johnson]

The projection that he's referring to and others is from the cbo, the Congressional Budget Office. They are historically totally unreliable. It's run by Democrats.

[Chris Murphy]

You're referring to the CBO scoring, I believe, which is tenure scoring and it's D.C. style scoring.

[Rachel Maddow]

Unfortunately, this is an institution in our country that has become partisan and political. Now the Congressional Budget Office is a firmly nonpartisan institution. The Washington Post fact checker gave the White House's claims about the CBO being a political entity for Pinocchios. All the Pinocchios they have to give. That is reality here, is that the only problem with the CBO's number is that they make Republicans look bad. Don't take my word for it. Here was Republican Congressman Jason Smith, the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee and one of the main Republicans championing Trump's big ugly bell bill. Here was Jason Smith last month preemptively talking about his skepticism around budget data before we even saw this data at all.

[Miles Taylor]

I'm very skeptical. Unless I like the number, I'm against the number.

[Amy Klobuchar]

And I'm just being completely honest.

[Rachel Maddow]

Unless I like the number, I'm against the number telling us everything that was going to happen. Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar is standing by and she joins me next.

[Mike Johnson]

Thanks.

[Rachel Maddow]

I want to just turn back to the breaking news that we've been following all show long and we have not been letting it distract us at all. We're going to talk about the bill, but I think it's also important to understand a little bit about this sweeping travel ban. So starting at 12:01am Eastern Time on Monday, people will no longer be able to enter the United States from Afghanistan, Burma, Chad, Republic of the Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen. There will also be heightened restrictions on visitors from Burundi, Cuba, Laos, Sierra Leone, Togo, Turkmenistan and Venezuela. The first time Trump instituted a travel ban just a week into his first term, his reasonings were incredibly clear. I mean, the nations he banned had predominantly Muslim populations. On the campaign trail, just the year before Trump called for a, quote, total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States, Trump's own advisors referred to the travel ban as a Muslim ban that first travel ban was blocked by the courts in a week's time. But Trump tried again and again with multiple subsequent travel bans, which were also adjudicated all the way up to the Supreme Court, where the high Court ultimately gave Trump the okay to enact his ban. I was just talking with Miles Taylor about this. Now we find ourselves here again. Trump has once again banned travel from a long list of countries. And while not all of them are predominantly Muslim, a lot of them are. A lot of them are in Africa. There are some themes here for sure. Joining me now is Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. Thank you for being here with me. I was just saying to you I love having you on always, but because I can talk to you about any topic, no matter what the breaking news is. So let me start on the gamut. Right. What's old is new again in some ways. I mean, I started the show talking in depth about the bill, the big ugly bill, which we will definitely talk about, which we cannot be distracted from. But I also just want to spend a moment so people understand this, too. So the travel ban is set to go into effect at 12:01 on Monday. You're very familiar on the Judiciary Committee. Do you think there could be legal challenges that could prevent that from happening?

[Amy Klobuchar]

Of course there will be. I remember the last time we had adopted kids. I remember one mom, I finally got the ambassador to make an exception for a kid that was actually coming from Lebanon. And she put a little flag sweater on because she thought it might help on the airplane. And that kid is now in Minnesota doing incredibly well. But this is what we're talking about here. We're talking about. I looked at some of the countries our state thrives on refugees. We have one of the biggest Hmong population. They're obviously not on the list, but we have a big Liberian population. We have a big Somali population. It's part of the fabric of life in our state. And as someone who leads the Afghan Adjustment Bill, which is a bipartisan piece of legislation, the thought that we would just ban people no matter what their circumstances across the board, as opposed to doing what grown up countries do, which is vet. We vet people regardless of country because you never know where someone's going to come in that you don't want to have come in our country. Our job is to vet them when they come from these nations, not to do across the board bans. In the case of the Afghans, we still have people hiding in that country that stood with our soldiers and staved their lives. We have people here that they have not decided to protect yet, who literally their best advocates are American soldiers who owe their lives to them, who were there. They were their interpreters. They gathered intel for them. Their families are at great risk. I just use that example of all the countries on the list because, say, sending them back or leaving them where they are, putting them in the hands of the Taliban, that's what we're talking about here. So I think going after wholesale people who come in as refugees is a mistake for our economy.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah.

[Amy Klobuchar]

It is a mistake for our security. And it is obviously a moral issue for me.

[Rachel Maddow]

Me as well. I mean, Trump cited the recent terror attack in Boulder, Colorado in a video he posted to X Tonight. And the suspect in that attack is an Egyptian national. Egypt is not a country listed in tonight's travel ban, which tells you, I think, almost everything. Even his own explanation doesn't make sense in the countries. Let me ask you about. I mean, there's so much in this bill that everybody's still learning about.

[Amy Klobuchar]

See, I call it the Big Beautiful betrayal.

[Rachel Maddow]

Oh, okay. I'm gonna try to adapt the big ugly bill.

[Amy Klobuchar]

You can do what you want. Either way, it's not good.

[Rachel Maddow]

Experts are warning also that the real cost of Trump's 50% tariffs on foreign steel and aluminum could also show up on Americans grocery bills. You also participated in a forum on the harm to SNAP benefits. That's a big part of this bill. We talk a lot about Medicaid. We've got to talk about snap, too. And the impact on Americans who rely on them, but also on farmers and agricultural communities. And that's a part of it I know you talked about today, but I think is sometimes missed from everybody's understanding.

[Amy Klobuchar]

It is, because obviously our number one focus is on kids and veterans and seniors who rely on food assistance, sometimes for short periods of time. Sometimes a mom who has a number of kids and she's trying to work. She is working, she's juggling jobs and she qualifies and need that extra help. But there's another angle to this. Our farmers already be hit with these crazy tariffs. That means they're losing export markets, they're losing the ability for some of their input. And then they've been hit by things like avian flu and the like. And then to add this to it, when they actually produce a bunch of the food for both SNAP and international aid. So that's the first thing. The second is grocery stores in rural areas. Sometimes there's one grocery store in a whole county, it is the hub. They may be smaller chains like Coburn's in Minnesota. They may be independent single groceries, but they have ranging from 5% to 30% to 40% of the people that use some SNAP benefits. This might be the margin for them to be able to stay open. And the final thing is this joke of a shift to this states. I love that some of our red state Democratic governors have been coming out like Laura Kelly of Kansas saying we don't just have the money for this. Josh Stein in North Carolina explaining that what are we supposed to do? Cut law enforcement? Are we supposed to cut infrastructure? Or Andy Beshear in Kentucky, because they get it. And so our Republican senators right now, they have to realize this is a billion dollar shift. Shift to Texas states that have a balanced budget amendment. They can't do this. It's a billion dollar shift to Pennsylvania. 41 states have these balanced budget amendments. So in addition to being the wrong thing and especially hurting people in rural areas that are depending on this food assistance, it's also going to be a blow to independent groceries, to farmers, and then of course to the states that simply aren't going to be able to pay for this.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Klobuchar, you are so smart, but you also make me want to go to Coburn's. Coburn's and Coburn's, please. Coburn's, everybody. They're all over our state.

[Amy Klobuchar]

This is just an example. They started in Minnesota. They've grown to dozens and dozens and dozens of stores. But they're not a national chain as much they have stores. These are the kinds of things that are the heart of the community.

[Rachel Maddow]

People will be impacted.

[Amy Klobuchar]

That's correct.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you so much for joining me.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Thanks for having me.

[Rachel Maddow]

I really appreciate it. Lawrence o' Donnell has a big show coming up full of news about Trump and Musk and the big ugly bill. He's. He's also got the governor of New York, Kathy Hochul, standing by. We're back after a very quick break. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue Sky, Instagram and TikTok for now. Goodbye from Washington and we'll see you next week.

[Nicole Wallace]

MSNBC presents a new original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Watts. This week, she sits down with Jason Bateman and Rachel Maddow.

[Rachel Maddow]

We are in a really important moment and we're an important place in it. And I'm glad that we're there together.

[Nicole Wallace]

The Best People with Nicole Wallace. Episodes one and two are available now for early access ad, free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.