OFF THE RAILS: Rand Paul beef with Markwayne Mullin adds surreal layer to bizarre hearing

Summary

The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode Title: OFF THE RAILS: Rand Paul beef with Markwayne Mullin adds surreal layer to bizarre hearing
Date: March 19, 2026
Host: Jen Psaki, MS NOW
Guests: Senator Mark Kelly, Congressman Maxwell Alejandro Frost, Senator Mark Warner

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Episode Overview

This chaotic episode unpacks a series of Capitol Hill spectacles marked by partisan infighting, questionable qualifications, and increasing dysfunction amidst escalating global crises. Jen Psaki guides listeners through a dramatic Senate hearing on the confirmation of Markwayne Mullin as Homeland Security Secretary—dominated by his personal feud with Senator Rand Paul—while paralleling it with a separate intelligence hearing starring Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard, herself dodging questions about Iran and election security. The episode also covers an explosive closed-door House briefing on the Epstein files, raising further concerns about transparency and accountability in Trump’s administration.

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Key Segments and Insights

1. Capitol Hill Sideshow: Mullin vs. Paul and Bizarre DHS Hearing

Timestamps: 01:00 – 09:41

• Senate Confirmation Meltdown:
  The show opens on the surreal energy of Markwayne Mullin’s confirmation hearing to lead the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), immediately derailed by his ongoing, publicized animosity with Committee Chair Senator Rand Paul.

  • Background: Mullin previously called Paul “a freaking snake” and even empathized with the Kentucky neighbor who assaulted Paul in 2017.
  • Senator Paul’s Challenge:
    • “Tell the world why you believe I deserve to be assaulted from behind, have six ribs broken and a damaged lung… why they should trust a man with anger issues to set the proper example for ICE and Border Patrol agents.”
      (Rand Paul, 05:28)
  • Mullin’s Defiance:
    • “Actually, it wasn’t heated. And I’m not apologizing for pointing out your character.”
      (Markwayne Mullin, 06:13)

• "War Hero" Claims and Evasions:
  Mullin is confronted over his repeated claims regarding secret military missions and the “smell of war,” despite never serving in the military.

  • Senator Kelly’s Challenge:
    • Asks Mullin to clarify his “smell of war” comments and details on supposed classified missions.
    • Mullin’s response: “It was done here… in the House... I have no idea.” (07:20–07:44)
  • Jen Psaki’s Reaction:
    • Sarcastically: “It was a super secret mission… so secret he doesn’t even know about it himself.” (07:57)

• Disqualifying Ignorance of DHS Operations:
  Mullin fumbles basic questions on the primary mission of Homeland Security Investigations (HSI).

  • Instead, delivers a word salad about “being in the same boat.”
  • Psaki highlights: “That didn’t even come close to describing HSI’s primary mission… All important stuff. Senator Mullen, though, didn’t appear to know what HSI is.” (09:41)

• Senator Kelly’s Verdict:

  • “Yeah. I mean, I'll be a no. This agency needs to be overhauled. We need somebody who knows how to do that. It’s not going to be an easy job.”
    (Senator Mark Kelly, 29:03)

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2. Dysfunction at the Top: Tulsi Gabbard and the Iran War Hearing

Timestamps: 09:41 – 22:57, 36:11 – 44:46

• DNI Testimony Undermined:
  Tulsi Gabbard, now Director of National Intelligence, is called out for last-minute omissions in her opening statement that contradict Trump’s claims about the Iran war and nuclear threat.

  • Senator Mark Warner’s Interrogation:
    • “You chose to omit the parts that contradict the president.”
      (Warner, 11:51)
    • Gabbard insists the omission was due to time constraints, but her written remarks state Iran’s program was “obliterated” with “no threat.”
  • Gabbard’s Dodges:
    • “The only person who can determine… an imminent threat is the president.”
      (Gabbard, 14:08)
    • Senator Kelly: “False. This is… where you present to Congress national intelligence independent of political considerations.” (Kelly, 14:14)

• Fundraising Scandal:
  Gabbard is blindsided by a question concerning a pro-Trump fundraising email offering “private national security briefings” to donors.

  • “I'm not familiar with that document…” (Gabbard, 15:26)
  • Jen Psaki’s incredulity: “Her entire domain is America’s secrets… You’d think someone would have told her an email went out offering to sell those secrets.” (15:33)

• Consequences of Yes-Men Culture:
  Senator Kelly laments the administration’s loyalty-over-competence ethos and the dangers of unchecked escalation:

  • “These are the kind of things that happen when you have an administration that's full of a bunch of yes people... We are at war with a country with no strategic goal, no plan, no timeline, no end state, no exit strategy.”
    (Senator Mark Kelly, 16:48–18:40)
  • Kelly on intelligence assessment: “Part of her job is to try to coordinate all this stuff between these agencies… but it is also her role to decide what to bring him. The stuff at the top of the list is, hey, here's the stuff we have to react to right now. Here’s the imminent danger. That's in the job description.”
    (Senator Mark Kelly, 21:28)

• Chilling on Election Security:
  Senator Warner returns to emphasize the omission of foreign election threats in this year’s intelligence assessment.

  • “It’s much easier to intervene in a free election than to buy a new aircraft carrier... We've known Russia, China, Iran, others do this… If we have a corrupted election because Donald Trump does not trust the people of America to vote, we’re in a heap of trouble.”
    (Senator Mark Warner, 41:00)

• Warner’s Fears:

  • “I never thought I'd say that at this point in my life… I have never been more terrified about the security of our elections than this year.”
    (Senator Mark Warner, 40:27)
  • “This president is so obsessed… will he use the power of the national intelligence offices to… intervene federally in these elections?”
    (Senator Mark Warner, 39:00)

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3. Epstein Files Cover-Up: Pam Bondi’s Closed Door Standoff

Timestamps: 31:20 – 36:11

• Contentious House Briefing:
  Attorney General Pam Bondi holds a closed-door session on the Epstein files, but Democrats walk out in protest, led by Congressman Maxwell Frost.

  • “We asked her multiple times, are you going to… speak with us under oath? She would not say yes… Because she’s a liar.”
    (Congressman Maxwell Frost, 31:42)

• Staged Hearing and Accountability:
  Frost details the setup: a faux hearing without oath or transcript, which he calls an attempt to escape a subpoena for formal testimony.

  • “What I think was really happening is they were trying to set up the basis for her to try to weasel herself out of coming to the deposition under oath. That is very much needed.”
    (Frost, 32:10)

• Public Trust and Cover-ups:

  • “She’s involved in one of the greatest coverups we’ve ever seen with the Epstein files. There were literally files about Donald Trump that were not published…”
    (Frost, 32:10)
  • On why a real deposition matters: “It’s a lot more of a serious thing that I think will uncover a lot for us.”
    (Frost, 35:09)

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4. Lingering Questions and Broader Takeaways

Timestamps: Throughout

• Will Officials Follow the Law?

  • Mullin refuses to directly say whether he would follow the law or a potentially unlawful presidential order:
    • “The President would never ask me to do that.” (Mullin, 23:24 & 25:38)
    • Senator Kelly: “I don't know what’s wrong with them, why they just can't say, I'm always going to follow the law… We are a country of laws.”
      (Senator Mark Kelly, 27:19)

• Election Denialism:

  • Mullin dodges the question of whether Joe Biden won the 2020 election:
    • “We know that President Joe Biden was sworn into office. He was president for the last four years. But I do believe one the election…”
      (Mullin, 26:32)

• Military Expertise and Staged Credentials:

  • Kelly rebuts Mullin’s war claims:
    • “He didn’t serve in the military… I flew combat missions over Iraq… For me the smell of war is just jet fuel. It's not something I would ever say.”
      (Senator Mark Kelly, 27:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A freaking snake.”
  (Mullin referring to Paul in a local interview, as recounted by Psaki, 04:01)

• “You offer no apology, sir, and you offer no apology today. And no regrets.”
  (Rand Paul, 05:28)

• “I have no idea.”
  (Mullin, when asked to clarify his classified mission, 07:44)

• “It also gives them almost allowance to move forward with it. We’re spending one to two billion dollars a day. This is hugely expensive...”
  (Senator Mark Kelly on Iran supplemental spending, 20:14)

• “We asked her multiple times, are you going to come and speak with us under oath? She would not say yes. We want her under oath because we do not trust her. Why don’t we trust her? Because she’s a liar.”
  (Congressman Maxwell Frost, 31:42)

• “I've never been more terrified about the security of our elections than this year.”
  (Senator Mark Warner, 40:27)

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Episode Structure & Timestamps

01:00–09:41 – Capitol Hill hears drama: Mullin v. Paul, confirmation hearing fireworks
09:41–22:57 – DNI Tulsi Gabbard's evasions, Iran war falsehoods, threats to accountability
31:20–36:11 – Epstein files: House Dems vs. Bondi, cover-up allegations
36:11–44:46 – Fulton County raid, Gabbard’s wobbly answers, Warner’s election security alarm

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Conclusion

This episode lays bare the extraordinary dysfunction, partisan spectacle, and absence of accountability permeating the highest levels of government—from the openly antagonistic spectacle of Mullin and Paul to the unsettling evasiveness of Tulsi Gabbard and the unrepentant stonewalling over the Epstein case. With escalating war, massive spending, and the next election looming, there is deep concern across guests and hosts that the imperative for truth, competence, and the rule of law is being abandoned in favor of loyalty and spectacle.

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For listeners:
If you haven’t heard the episode, review these highlights and timestamps to dive directly into the most dramatic moments and critical exchanges—and get a front-row seat to a government “off the rails.”

Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Host/News Anchor]

Okay. There was quite a competition from the clown car on Capitol Hill today between the nominee to lead the Department of Homeland Security. This guy, you can see him right there. Mark Wayne Mullen. We're gonna talk about him a lot tonight. And the current Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard. On who could be more evasive, more uninformed and really more sycophantic, which may be what it's all about. And then tonight we got an unexpected late entrance into that competition from the attorney general because Pam Bondi just held a closed door briefing on the Epstein files that went so badly that Democrats on the House Oversight Committee walked out of it. And they walked out, you can see them on the left there. Congressman Garcia right there. They walked out with steam coming out of their ears. Pretty off. Congressman Maxwell Frost, he was there. He was in that meeting today. He's hustling over to the studio and he's going to tell us exactly what went down and what happens from here, most importantly. But I do want to start tonight with those two hearings on Capitol Hill today that really, it happens at pretty much the exact same time. You could have got popcorn out, coffee, snacks, all the things Tulsi Gabbard testified as part of a Senate Intelligence hearing on worldwide threats. Just one day, of course, after her top deputy resigned in protest over Trump's war with Iran. So there was that. Now around the corner, another part of the Capitol, M. Mark Wayne Mullen was testifying in his Senate confirmation hearing. And that Mullen hearing kicked off with an absolutely bonkers exchange between the DHS nominee and the committee's Republican chairman, Rand Paul, a sort of Republican on Republican, nerdy but aggressive food fight. And just to give you a sense of what an unmitigated disaster this was, I want you to watch this moment from Fox News when the conservative network gave a play by play. They were basically giving a play by play like it was a boxing match. And then abruptly they cut away as soon as the fighting started.

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

I'm going to secure Kentucky and take care of Kentucky.

[Senator Mark Warner]

All right. So these gentlemen have a history, Dana. Yeah, quite clear.

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

I have to say.

[Host/News Anchor]

I didn't realize that Rand Paul and Mark Vayne Mullen had this kind of a personal animosity. It seems like Rand Paul is very angry with him.

[Senator Mark Warner]

So we'll see where that goes. But in the meantime, we've got another

[Senator Mark Kelly]

hearing that's about to kick off.

[Host/News Anchor]

Yes. Because any moment, the nation's top intelligence and law enforcement officials testifying at a Senate hearing on worldwide threats. Boy, this looks like it's getting heated, everyone. Something may be about to happen. Republicans are fighting conservatives. Cover your eyes. And quick, let's go to the other hearing where perhaps possibly likely nothing is happening. Do you ever watch NFL Red Zone? It's like the channel that flips between football games happening at the same time to show you the most exciting parts of each game, to kind of keep you hooked on the action and keep you watching because they're going to show you the most important place and the key parts of the game. Well, Fox News was kind of like the opposite of NFL Red Zone today, using the fact that there were two hearings to cut away from the spicier one whenever something interesting actually happened, which was still a tall order for the folks at Fox because like I said, a lot happened in both of these hearings. So that DHS hearing began with this big fight between the chairman of the committee and the nominee, one that has been, by the way, simmering for a long while now. I mean, it dates back to last month when Senator Mark Wayne Mullen gave an interview to a local Oklahoma reporter and ripped into his fellow Republican, Rand Paul. Mullen called Paul a freaking snake. That's a direct quote, by the way. A freaking snake. And then Mullen referenced a 2017 incident in which Rand Paul was assaulted by his neighbor in Kentucky, leaving Paul with five broken ribs and other serious injuries. Now, despite the horrific nature of that attack, Mark Wayne Mullen told that local Oklahoma reporter that he actually sympathized with Paul's violent attacker, saying, quote, I understand completely why his neighbor did what he did, and I told him that to his face. Well, there's a lot to be said about that. But saying all of that out loud was quite a choice given that just about two weeks later, after he did that interview, Trump nominated Mullen to be the new Homeland Security secretary. And he may have had an inkling of that. He may have even wanted the job. And that was, of course, going to set him up for a confirmation hearing before the committee whose chairman just happens to be Rand Paul.

[Rand Paul]

I just wonder if someone who applauds violence against their political opponents is the right person to lead an agency that has struggled to accept limits to the proper use of force. Tell the world why you believe I deserve to be assaulted from behind, have six ribs broken and a damaged lung. Tell me to my face why you think I deserved it. And while you're at it, explain to the American public why they should trust a man with anger issues to set the proper example for ICE and Border Patrol agents. You offer no apology, sir, and you offer no apology today. And no regrets. Haven't heard the word apologize. Haven't heard the word regret. Haven't heard I misspoke. And it was heated and I made a mistake I heard any of those words, sir.

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

Actually, it wasn't heated. And I'm not apologizing for pointing out your character.

[Rand Paul]

Good, good. So you're jolly well fine. And you want the American public and the people up here to vote that may or may not vote for you to know that you supported the felonious, violent attack on me from behind.

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

Oof.

[Host/News Anchor]

I mean, like I said, that was how Mullen's confirmation hearing started today. Because of course, Rand Paul is the chairman. He gets to speak first. And things though, really didn't get better from there because literally right after that tense exchange, Mullen had another extremely awkward exchange. And just for some context here, Marquin Mullen is a former congressman who has never served in the US Military. And yet he's claimed to know the, quote, smell of war, insisting for years that he was involved in some kind of top secret overseas mission on behalf of the United States. Well, here's just a bit and I could not play you the whole thing, cuz we wanna talk to all of our amazing guests. But here's just a bit of what it looked like when he was confronted about that multiple times throughout the hearing.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

You told Fox News interview, quote, war

[Host/News Anchor]

is ugly, it smells bad.

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

So where did you smell war, sir? I just said that this was classified.

[Rand Paul]

Which agency? Classified

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

wasn't an Agency. It was done here. Well, in the House. On the time the House classified it, I'm assuming. I don't. I wasn't on. I wasn't on intel.

[Rand Paul]

We're just not really aware of how the House classifies. I have.

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

I have no idea.

[Rand Paul]

It's a little difficult for us to go ask about a program that has no name and we have nobody that we know to talk to about it. So I don't know how we would begin doing this without your cooperation.

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

But I'm willing to cooperate.

[Host/News Anchor]

Okay. It was a super secret mission that was classified through a process that's absolutely so secret that he doesn't even know about it himself. And neither do two senators who have been in the Senate quite a while. Know how the House would have classified such a super secret double secret mission he was on. Now, that whole thing was such a cringy disaster that by the end of the day, Senator Paul had decided that he was voting against Senator Mullen's confirmation. Although my bet is he was gonna vote against him when he gave that interview just a couple of weeks ago. It's worth pointing out here, though, that as chairman of the committee, Paul could effectively veto Mullen's nomin, at least for a while, by massively delaying his vote out of the committee. If he wanted to. If he wanted to. Doesn't seem like he's gonna do that. We'll see. But as confusing and kind of bizarre as all of that was, things got even worse when Senator Mullen was asked about a key part of the department he'd be overseeing in his new job. What is the primary mission of Homeland Security Investigations?

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

From the IG or from us?

[Host/News Anchor]

I'm sorry, for. From Homeland Security Department. There's. HSI is within Homeland Security. What is their primary mission? Well, it's not a trick question either.

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

No, I understand that. And every agency, sir, we have specific missions that we are targeted to look at. Our aspect of protecting the homeland in different directions, have different paths and in different agencies. The reason why there are 22 of them there, we all need to be in the same boat. We're on the same direction, working for one common goal. And as I said, that's protect the homeland, bring peace of mind, and secure the confidence of the American people.

[Host/News Anchor]

There were a lot of boat analogies there. But Senator Mullen, that doesn't word salad that whatever that was didn't even come close to describing HSI's primary mission. And the mission of that agency is actually very specific. HSI specifically is very important because they specialize in, in dealing with human trafficking, human smuggling, counterfeit bank fraud, things of that nature. All important stuff. Senator Mullen, though, didn't appear to know what HSI is, what their mission is supposed to be, and what they are doing now. Look, there are a lot of remaining questions about why Mark Wayne Mullen felt the need to root for the neighbor who beat up Rand Paul and what double super secret mission he may have been on. But what today's hearing made very clear is that he is not prepared for the job of Homeland Security Secretary. So that's one part that was what was happening in one room at the Capitol. But perhaps more concerning was what was simultaneously taking place in another hearing room with a member of Trump's Cabinet who has already been in the job for over a year and still isn't particularly well versed, it seems, on what her job actually is. Like I said before today, Trump's Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, testified before the Senate. And that hearing also got off to court. Quite a rocky start when Tulsi Gabbard decided to do some, well, last minute editing to her opening statement, omitting an entire section of her prepared remarks that contradicted Donald Trump's justification for the war in Iran. And those who were following along in the room, and believe me, many were, certainly took note.

[Senator Mark Warner]

I guess what I'm concerned about one thing is even in your printed testimony today on page six and your last paragraph on page six, as a result of Operation Midnight Hammer, Iran's nuclear enrichment program was obliterated. There's been no efforts to try to rebuild their enrichment capability. You omitted that paragraph from your oral opening. Was that because the president said there was an imminent threat? Two weeks?

[Host/News Anchor]

No, sir. I recognized that the time was running long and I skipped through some of the portions.

[Senator Mark Warner]

You chose to take my oral delivered remarks. She chose to omit the parts that contradict the president.

[Host/News Anchor]

So Tulsi Gabbard wrote in her prepared remarks that Iran's nuclear program had been obliterated, that they were not trying to rebuild a nuclear weapon. There was no nuclear threat from Iran. But then she just conveniently omitted it from what she said on camera. And she likely did that because her boss keeps saying things like this.

[Rand Paul]

We took a little bit of a journey, a little bit of an excursion over the last two weeks because we thought we had to do something about very bad people that want to have nuclear weapons. The regime was trying to reconstitute its weapons program at a different site. If we didn't do what we're doing right now, you would have had a nuclear war and they would have taken out many countries.

[Host/News Anchor]

So Tulsi Gabbard clearly did not want to contradict her boss during today's hearing. That's very clear. But that proved very difficult as the hearing went on. I mean, she wants to have her job tomorrow after this, these hearings wrap. I get that. But that's not an easy task because her boss has said a lot of things that are pretty easy to contradict, like the question of whether or not Iran posed an imminent threat to the United States prior to Trump's decision to start the war. Now, remember, it was just yesterday when a top gabber deputy and MAGA die hard resigned from the administration over the war, claiming that, contrary to Trump's claims, there was no imminent threat from Iran. And he's now on something of a right wing media tour telling the other side of the story, the side that Trump certainly doesn't want people to hear. There was no intelligence that said, hey, on whatever day it was, March 1st,

[Senator Mark Warner]

the Iranians are gonna launch this big sneak attack.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

They're gonna do some kind of a

[Senator Mark Warner]

9, 11, Pearl harbor, et cetera. They're gonna attack one of our bases. There was none of that intelligence.

[Host/News Anchor]

That was one of Gabbard's former closest aides until he resigned. There was no intelligence that Iran posed an imminent threat, is what he said. Now watch what happened when Tulsi Gabbard was asked a very similar question today.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Was it the assessment of the intelligence community that there was a, quote, imminent nuclear threat posed by the Iranian regime?

[Host/News Anchor]

Yes or no, Senator? The only person who can determine and what is and is not an imminent threat is the president.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

False. This is the worldwide. This is the worldwide threats hearing where you present to Congress national intelligence. Timely, objective, and independent of political considerations. It is precisely your responsibility to determine what constitutes a threat to the United States.

[Host/News Anchor]

Tulsi Gabbard doesn't think it's her job to assess whether there is a threat to the country, not her job, despite the fact that it is precisely her job and definitely not up to the whims of a president, really, any president. So all this is really embarrassing for Tulsi Gabbard as the top intelligence official in the country. But I think the most embarrassing moment today came from this exchange with Senator Mark Kelly in which Gabbard dodges a question about a pro Trump fundraising email that trivialized the war and offered to sell the top secret intelligence to Trump donors.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

This is a fundraising email from The President from the President of the United States. And in this email here, where there's multiple links to donate money, it says, as a national security briefing member, you'll receive my private national security briefings.

[Host/News Anchor]

I'm not familiar with that document and

[Senator Mark Kelly]

it's been made very public six days ago.

[Host/News Anchor]

She's not familiar with that document. It's not a 50 page in depth document. It was being held up by my first guest here right in front of her. She's also the Director of National Intelligence. Her entire domain is America's secrets. Don't you think someone would have told her that an email went out offering to sell those secrets and the things that she is holding so close to the highest bidder? You'd think. Or she could Google whatever. I think the takeaway here is that there is nobody in Donald Trump's cabinet trustworthy enough to deal with the very serious issues facing our country. And we should not expect any real level of competence and directness and the opposite of evasiveness anytime soon. And that reality has only become more alarming given some breaking news tonight because Reuters just reported that the Trump administration is considering deploying thousands more U.S. troops to reinforce its operation in the Middle East. That's According to one U.S. official and three people familiar with the matter. Lots to dive into and starting us off tonight is Senator Mark Kelly. He's a member of the Senate Intelligence and Armed Services Committees. Senator Kelly, I have so much to ask you about. Let me ask you first about that Reuters report which just came out reporting that thousands of troops could be deployed. What's your reaction to that?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, this is what we had feared, this escalation that leads to troops on the ground, service members in harm's way. It's a lot different flying combat missions over a country than it is to be the individual fighting in close quarters with a military. In this case, the IRGC is a huge force. It's nearly 1 million individuals. So this is what we didn't want to see happen, but this is what happens. These are the kind of things that happen when you have an administration that's full of, of a bunch of yes people. And when I watch this back, I was obviously, I was there. You showed the clip. I was there for the entire hearing, the public part and the part in the secure facility. And it doesn't take you long to figure out that those folks testifying that work for the president are performing for the president, that they know there is one audience. We don't matter. Democrats, Republicans on the committee do not matter. What matters is the guy who might have the TV on in the Oval Office or up there in the personal quarters of the White House watching them. And you just get this strong sense that they have a very hard time speaking truth to power. And that's how you find yourself in a situation where we are at war with a country with no strategic goal, no plan, no timeline, no end state, no exit strategy. And I imagine what we're going to see is just this continued, what I think is fair to say is a train wreck. And we've already have dead service members, many that are injured in Iraq Starting in 2003, we wound up with over 4,000 U.S. service members paying the ultimate price. I do not want to see that happen here.

[Host/News Anchor]

There was also an announcement made by the Pentagon today about a request for $200 billion in supplemental aid for this war. Have you made a decision about where

[Senator Mark Kelly]

you stand on that enormous amount of money? Hey, I am not in favor of this. This president hasn't come to the American people. That is an enormous amount of money. You consider how many people have lost their health care. Half of Americans can't pay for food. How many people got kicked off a snap? Families are having a hard time affording an education, decent education for their kids. College costs have skyrocketed, student debt. I mean, one issue after another we need to address. We've got, you know, literacy rates in our country are abysmally low and math performance not like anything we've really seen in decades. Certainly it took us a while to get here. We used to be at the top of the list and these kind of things. Those issues need resources. Spending this money because we have a president that in my view has no idea what he's doing, is ill equipped for this job and is just kind of phoning it in at this point and not listening to people. And the problem is, even if he had people to listen to, it's these folks who will not speak truth to power.

[Host/News Anchor]

It doesn't. It sounds like you're not leaning towards supporting it, but you're not going to support it.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

It also says that is my current plan.

[Host/News Anchor]

Well, that's not to support it. Be clear. It also funding. It also gives them almost allowance to move forward with it.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

We're spending one to two billion dollars a day. We spend five and a half, I think in the first two days. This is hugely expensive. And the amount of munitions we are just burning through here, I mean, just like when I looked at it like three or four days ago, it was shocking. The amount that we've used, we gotta keep our service members safe. And one of the best ways to do that is get back into some form of negotiation. By the way, why are we here? It's because Donald Trump in 2018 tore up the Iran deal.

[Host/News Anchor]

There's a direct line.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Direct line. You can go from three and a half percent enrichment to now we're at 60 because of Donald Trump, and we

[Host/News Anchor]

have no visibility as we used to have because of the ie. Let's dig into this hearing. There were so many moments in this hearing, and there was one, and I just played this. But I'm just gonna reiterate it just in case people watched or they didn't take it all down. Tulsi Gabbard said that it is not the intelligence community's responsibility to determine what is and is not an imminent threat. She said the only person who can determine what is and not an imminent threat is. Is the president. That goes directly to how we got into this war. But what was your reaction when you heard her saying that?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I spend a lot of time every week in the scif, in hearings, but also just showing up there with my intelligent Committee staffer going through the intelligence, the stuff that is produced by the nsa, by the CIA, by the Defense Intelligence Agency. And what are we reading here? Sometimes it's raw intelligence, but we're also reading the analysis that frequently talks about imminent threats. You know, maybe threats that are a little bit in the future, but sometimes it's like stuff that is right now, that is their job. They have other roles and responsibilities. As the dni, Part of her job is to try to coordinate all this stuff between these agencies and get an overall picture for the President. But it is also her role to decide what to bring him. And she brings him. The stuff at the top of the list is, hey, here's the stuff we have to react to right now. Here's the imminent danger to US Citizens, whether it's at home or abroad. That's in the job description. So she was just deflecting because she didn't want to get into. I think it might have been the whole issue about whether or not we obliterated their nuclear program last summer, which, by the way, we didn't. Part of the reason we find ourselves back here. This president is very rarely honest with the American people about anything. And having a bunch of sycophants around him has just made it worse.

[Host/News Anchor]

You've been so generous to stay. We gotta take a quick break. I wanna ask you about a couple things I Also, I have to ask you about the secret agent self identified Mark Wayne Mullen and some things we heard from him today. I want to play just a bit for you and we're going to take a break and you can think about it during the commercial. If directed by the President to take

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

an action that would break the law,

[Host/News Anchor]

would you follow the law or follow the President's direction?

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

To answer your question, the President would never ask me to do that.

[Host/News Anchor]

Quite an answer given Donald Trump's track record. I'm going to ask you about that when we come back and we'll talk a little bit more about Iran too. We'll be right back.

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[Rand Paul]

I'm in.

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[Host/News Anchor]

Here's some headlines recapping Mark Wayne Mullen's confirmation hearing today. The New York Times wrote that he struck a softer tone than Christine Ohm. Politico said that Mullen presented himself as a different kind of DHS secretary. But as much as Mullen tried to act like he wouldn't just be another Trump lackey, he had a very tough time giving a straight answer to some very simple questions. If directed by the President to take

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

an action that would break the law,

[Host/News Anchor]

would you follow the law or follow

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

the president's Direction your question. The president would never ask me to do that.

[Host/News Anchor]

That's funny. I'm almost certain he will. I mean, not only has Trump already shown time and time again that he has no qualms asking Cabinet secretaries to break the law, doesn't really care about the impact on them, but courts all over the country are already furious with the Department of Homeland Security, specifically because of how frequently the agency breaks the law. DHS is also in charge of election security at a time when Trump really wants to mess with elections. So it should be quite alarming that today Trump's nominee to lead the agency would not answer this very simple question. Do you believe that Joe Biden won Arizona in the 2020 presidential election?

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

Sir, I'm not familiar with what the former secretary did here, and nor I'm here to debate what happened in 2020.

[Host/News Anchor]

Who won the 2020 election?

[Mark Wayne Mullen]

Ma', am, we know that President Joe Biden was sworn into office. He was president for the last four years. But I do believe one the election, I believe my job as Department of Homeland Security secretary will be to make sure that we assure that the elections are fair and people can trust them.

[Host/News Anchor]

Senator Mark Kelly, as promised, is back with us. There's so much to ask about that hearing, but given your background, let me just start with this. He has long been talking about his familiarity with the scent of war, the smell of war, and this is part of this secret mission that he described. I just played this earlier in the show that he can't talk about publicly. Given your background serving actually in combat roles, what goes through your head when you hear him talk about that?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, a couple things. Well, the first thing is, you know, when you're in a hole, stop digging. And that's what it seemed like to me after watching this, because I've heard of some of the things he's talked about. I saw the clip about, like, the smell of war. It's in your nostrils. So he didn't serve in the military. By the way, I flew combat missions over Iraq off an aircraft carrier. I would never say that, because for me, the smell of war is just jet fuel. So it's not something I would ever say. And I served 25 years in the Navy. I don't know why these. And just listening to him about talking about the election and that if the president asked him to break the law, would he break the law? And his response, the trifecta question, if you want to get all three of them, would have been who invaded Ukraine? You know, that's the other one. That a lot of these nominees have struggled with. I've asked that of nominees who invaded Ukraine and they will not say Russia. They'll just like kind of do what Senator Mullen just did and try to avoid answering the question. These are pretty basic things. I don't know what's wrong with these folks, why they just can't say. I'm always going to follow the law. We are. We are a country of laws. I'm gonna follow the law regardless of what the president asked me to do. You know, I'm not gonna put the American people in jeopardy by doing something that is illegal. It seems to me to be a pretty simple question. And this administration has just kind of turned this whole thing upside down because they demand loyalty to a man and not loyalty to the Constitution.

[Host/News Anchor]

I know he's a fellow senator, but if he makes it out of committee into the floor. Have you made a decision about how you'll vote on Mark Wayne Mullen?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yeah. I mean, I'll be a no. This agency needs to be overhauled. We need somebody who knows how to do that. It's not going to be an easy job. And, you know, it also comes back down to Trump, you know, Donald Trump. I would like to see somebody in that position at DHS who will stand up to the president. And if it takes a couple more cycles to find that person, we can do it. We have time.

[Host/News Anchor]

We're here for more hearings if they happen. Senator Markelli, thank you as always for being here.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Appreciate it.

[Host/News Anchor]

Okay, up next, Congressman Maxwell Frost just walked out of a closed door briefing with Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche on the Epstein files. Rip roaring mad. You can see him there right on your screen. He ran over here from there and he's going to tell us why when we come back.

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[Host/News Anchor]

One day after the House Oversight Committee subpoenaed Attorney General Pam Bondi to testify under oath about the Justice Department's handling of the Epstein files, Bondi and her deputy, Todd Blanch met with members for a briefing behind closed doors. Now, when Democrats emerged from that meeting, they were not happy, to say the least. And here's how Congressman Maxwell Alejandro Frost put it.

[Congressman Maxwell Alejandro Frost]

We asked her multiple times, are you going to come and speak with us under oath? She would not say yes. We want her under oath because we do not trust her. Why don't we trust her? Because she's a liar.

[Host/News Anchor]

There we go. And we've all seen it. And she keeps oppos books with her at hearings. Joining me now is Congressman Maxwell Alejandro Frost, a Democrat from Florida on the House Oversight Committee. Okay, first, let me ask you. There's been a lot of bits and pieces of reporting about what happened in that room. You were in that room. So what happened in that room?

[Congressman Maxwell Alejandro Frost]

All right, so we issue the subpoena, right? A few days ago. We are told yesterday, the Attorney General to do a briefing with the Oversight Committee. All right, we'll go listen to the Attorney General. A briefing? What is that? Usually you walk in, they give you a presentation, they talk about something that they want to make sure you know about. Okay? So we walk in, and it's in our committee room like a normal hearing usually is, which was a little different than usual. But we sit down, we're ready for her to speak, and she doesn't say anything. James Comer then goes, we're each gonna ask questions on each side. Everyone's gonna get three minutes. You're gonna get to ask your questions. And essentially, what they were simulating was a congressional hearing or a deposition, except not under oath. No transcripts, no staff, no attorneys, no video, no nothing. In the dark where she's free to lie to us as much as she wants. And what I think was really happening is they were trying to set up the basis for her to try to weasel herself out of coming to the deposition under oath. That is very much needed. And we caught onto this very early. And then Representative Summer Lee, one of my colleagues, turns the comber and says, I'm not gonna ask her questions, cuz she's not under oath. But I wanna ask you a question. Are you gonna make sure that she comes back to do the deposition that we voted on in a bipartisan way under the law? Because we asked her time and time again and she wouldn't commit to coming. She kept saying, I'll follow the law. She wouldn't say yes or no. That's her way of getting out of it. And James Comer and her go back and forth and James Comer literally looks at her and says that she was bitching. And then at that point we decided to leave. We walked out because we're not gonna give Pam Bondi material to try to get out of the legal subpoena that we issued her just a few days ago. And that's what happened. And that's why we all walked out very pissed off and very frustrated at this brazen attempt to try to circumvent the law. And my Republican colleagues are like, well, why don't you ask her questions now? Why we don't trust her, She's a liar. She's involved in one of the greatest coverups we've ever seen with the Epstein files. There were literally files about Donald Trump that were not published. The public saw that, called it out and then they published it. She brazenly violated the law, waiting over 30 days to release the files when in the law we voted on damning unanimously. We said it had to be out 30 days after we passed it. So time and time again she's proven that we can't. And she spied on members of Congress. That too, that too, to throw a cherry on top of it. So of course we're not gonna trust her in some closed door room not being under oath. And so we left and we're still expecting to have that subpoena. And I think we put James Comer in a tough position because he came out, was berated with questions about it and he just said, no, we're gonna compel her to come. And so I'm glad we walked out.

[Host/News Anchor]

So you still think it could happen if she testifies under oath, which is very different. Than like a performative behind closed doors hearing, which clearly they wanted to say they've done it or something like that. What do you think the first question, what's the most important question she should be asked?

[Congressman Maxwell Alejandro Frost]

There's so many things, I mean, me, I'm gonna center a lot of my questioning on the spying of members of Congress because I think that's kind of a key that unlocks a lot. They're obviously involved in a cover up. The question is, why are you spying on us? Who approved that? Who told you to do that? Right. And I think that line of questioning is gonna open up something a little bit bigger that might lead to the fact that she's been directed to cover up certain things either by the president or Stephen Miller or somebody else. Not to mention the fact that she broke the law when they have not released a lot of documents. The redactions were obviously done to protect Donald Trump in many cases. So there's a lot of things we need to ask her because she has lied, because she has broken the law. And for people who are like, well, why does it matter? A closed door deposition, that matters because in a hearing, five minutes each side, it's all a performance a lot of the time. But a deposition, we, it's an hour each side and our attorneys get to also ask questions. It's a lot more of a serious thing that I think will uncover a lot for us.

[Host/News Anchor]

Congressman Maxwell Frost, lots to hear about this. Thank you for being here. Thank you for running over. Okay, up next, lawmakers finally got to grill Tulsi Gabbard today. Already been talking about that. On what the hell, though, she was doing at the FBI raid in Fulton County, Georgia. Aren't we all wondering that Senator Mark Warner is standing by? I'm going to ask him about that. That's what he grilled her on. And about the breaking news tonight about the possibility of thousands more troops being sent to the Middle East. We'll be right back. Today, senators finally got the chance to ask Tulsi Gabbard a very important question. Why was she at the FBI's raid of a Fulton County, Georgia, election facility a few weeks ago lurking right there in the corner? You know, the one where they seize ballots from the 2020 election. And remember, this is a question that has gotten different answers depending on who you ask and when you ask the question. Could you please explain Tulsi Gabbard's role

[Senator Mark Warner]

in DOJ activity regarding the Fulton county search?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

What do you mean her role?

[Host/News Anchor]

It was reported that she was, she

[Senator Mark Kelly]

happened to be present in Atlanta.

[Rand Paul]

I'm not involved in it, but they are inspecting and checking the bell.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Why is Tulsi Gabbard there?

[Senator Mark Warner]

I don't know. She took a lot of heat two

[Rand Paul]

days ago because she went in at Pam's insistence. She went in and she looked at votes.

[Host/News Anchor]

You know, she happened to be there. Everyone. Pam Bondi, center. Poor Pam Bondi. Well, here's what Gabbard herself said today about this. I was at Fulton county, sir, at the request of the president and to work with the FBI to observe this action that had long been awaited. I was not aware of what was in the warrant or was not in the warrant.

[Senator Mark Warner]

What was the president's specific request for you to go to what was the specific request made by the president for you to show up in Fulton county

[Host/News Anchor]

to go and observe the FBI, FBI's activities on this issue? Now, she later said she was there to observe or, sorry, sorry, oversee portions of the raid. Sounds different. That aside, joining me now is Vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Virginia Democrat Mark Warner, who was absolutely grilling Tulsi Gabbard today. I was so interested in how you specifically posed these questions and how you pressed her because you know so much, far more than she does about this particular issue. But something that stuck out to me in Gabbard's answer to you is that she said that the FBI raid was, quote, long awaited. I don't know anyone who is expecting the FBI to raid an election office. Did you believe her when she says that she was only asked by Trump to go to the raid on the day, which is what she said?

[Senator Mark Warner]

Absolutely not. Long awaited. So this is part why I believe it could be long awaited, the fact that there's a effort still because Donald Trump, Trump's obsession about losing the 2020 elections, he's not let go of. And he's put people like the guy, a guy named Mr. Olson, who's an election denier, who's been given one of these special employee designations, the way Elon Musk has been given, to go out and try to stir the pot. He got this affidavit, and somehow I asked as well, why would the president of the United States, who's supposed to have other things he's supposed to be occupied with, know about an affidavit and a search warrant being issued on what was a domestic matter? And then Gabbard said the president ordered her to go, which has obviously been contradicted by both Pam Bondi, the president himself, and we still have no idea other than the fact that I believe there is an effort not only focused on relitigating the 2020 election, but my greater fear is going forward into 26, the midterms. This president is so obsessed that will he use the power of the national intelligence offices to try to put up enough smokescreen to intervene federally in these elections. I have never been more terrified about the security of our elections than this year. I never thought I'd say that at this point in my life.

[Host/News Anchor]

I know, and we've talked about this before, and you've really been sounding the alarm even long before this. You also brought up in your questions to Gabbard that this is the first foreign threat assessment since 2017 that did not mention foreign election. And that's such an important point because it is always something that the intelligence community is tracking and watching and briefing in a nonpartisan way. Congress every year. Why was that something you pressed her on? And what really struck you about that? Why is it important for people to understand that piece?

[Senator Mark Warner]

Well, Jen, you know, we have known Russia, China, Iran, others. It's much easier to intervene in a free election than to buy a new aircraft carrier. It's much cheaper. We saw Russia do it in 2016. We've seen other nation states do it as well. And the idea that since literally since 2018, the intelligence community has regularly briefed in a bipartisan basis foreign nations trying to intervene, and the fact that they didn't even mention it in the worldwide threat, the fact that they did acknowledge none of these nations have stopped their efforts. And I worry because if they somehow then come up with some intelligence, real or not, that is then used as an excuse for Donald Trump to send in federal troops, send in ice, change the election days. If we have a corrupted election because Donald Trump does not trust the people of America to vote this season, then we're in a heap of trouble. And I do not have a lot of confidence. I have a confidence in the intention, integrity of the intelligence professionals. But this leadership, as we've seen time and again, you know, she was notif she was ordered to go there. How did Trump know on that day that the warrant was going to be offered? And then her constantly changing explanations. And then we get to the Iran war where she's changed her story a few times and trying to declare that the president is the only person in the country that can declare an imminent threat of a crisis, which would mean the president alone can troops put troops into harm's way. We are so fast approaching uncharted territory. And what I hope Is that the intelligence professionals who I fear, you know, as people speak truth to power and term in the intelligence community, they are fired by this president. We've seen it with the former head of the nsa, former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency. I know I'm sounding like hair on fire, but my hair is on fire about the security of our elections this year.

[Host/News Anchor]

Before I let you go, why do you think he knew? What is your theory? I mean, you were clearly pressing on what he knew, when and why he knew it, knew it, it seems like he knew. We don't know that for sure, but what's your theory?

[Senator Mark Warner]

My theory is Donald Trump has never accepted the fact that he lost in 2020. He's obsessed by this and the fact that he is directing the intelligence community. And a gentleman by the name of Mr. Olson, who has been criticized by the courts, a renowned election denier, has been given this kind of carte blanche to go in and stir the pot. And remember, we never got. Luckily we found out about Gabbard doing this in Georgia. She never reported the fact that they had actually taken election voting machines from Puerto Rico months earlier. That is a violation of our obligation to keep the intelligence committee community informed. We've now seen recent efforts. Maybe Mark Kelly spoke about it earlier about trying to go after the ballots from 2020 again from Arizona. This is not just an obsession of Donald Trump, but my fear is this will be used as a predicate to somehow interfere in the 26 elections. The American people are rejecting, you know, Trump's policies of his war of choice in Iran, rising food prices, rising gas prices. And my fear is they will do anything to try to keep power, including interfering in our elections.

[Host/News Anchor]

Senator Mark Warner, thanks for always sounding the alarm very directly. Appreciate you being here tonight. That does it for me. Tonight you can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on Ms. Now. And don't forget to follow the show on Bluesky, Instagram and TikTok.

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