Oops! He Did It Again: Secretary Hegseth on the Defensive over Second Signal Chat

Summary

The Briefing with Jen Psaki: "Oops! He Did It Again: Secretary Hegseth on the Defensive over Second Signal Chat"

Release Date: April 22, 2025

In this compelling episode of "The Briefing with Jen Psaki," host Jen Psaki delves deep into the escalating controversy surrounding Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth. The episode not only examines the intricate details of the scandal but also features insightful analysis from renowned investigative journalist Bob Woodward, shedding light on broader implications for national security and political dynamics.

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1. The Scandal Unveiled: Second Signal Chat Incident

The heart of the episode revolves around the alarming revelation that Secretary Pete Hegseth engaged in unauthorized communications involving classified military operations via private Signal chats. This misconduct first came to public attention when The New York Times reported that on March 15, Hegseth shared explicit details about forthcoming strikes in Yemen, including flight schedules for F/A-18 Hornets targeting Houthi positions.

At [04:25], Hegseth defensively stated:
"Nobody was texting war plans. And that's all I have to say about that."

Despite his initial denial, the release of screenshots by journalist Jeffrey Goldberg exposed the gravity of the breach, revealing that Hegseth had disseminated sensitive information to individuals without the necessary security clearances, including his wife and brother.

2. Bob Woodward's Critical Assessment of Hegseth's Competence

Joining Psaki was Bob Woodward, the legendary journalist known for his investigative prowess. Woodward provided a scathing critique of Hegseth's suitability for the role, emphasizing the importance of competence and seriousness in handling national defense.

At [16:00], Woodward remarked:
"The secretary of defense is deputy president for war. You want that position to be filled by somebody who's very serious, very competent, very focused on that mission, protecting the homeland, protecting the United States... I don't see any of that."

Woodward contrasted Hegseth with previous Secretaries of Defense, highlighting a perceived decline in the seriousness required for such a pivotal role.

3. Fallout Within the Pentagon: Resignations and Administrative Leaves

The scandal triggered a significant internal response within the Pentagon. Multiple high-ranking officials associated with Hegseth were either fired or placed on administrative leave. Notable departures included Dan Caldwell, Jaron Selnick, and Colin Carroll.

Psaki detailed at [05:21]:
"Three Pentagon officials close to Hegseth... confirmed they were placed on administrative leave."

Additionally, Joe Casper, Hegseth's chief of staff, was reassigned within the Pentagon, while John Elliott, another senior official, resigned under contentious circumstances.

4. Political Reactions: Trump’s Defense and Republican Inaction

Despite mounting evidence and internal dissent, President Trump staunchly defended Hegseth, prioritizing loyalty over competence. Republicans in Congress largely refrained from taking decisive action against the Secretary, allowing the situation to fester.

At [11:58], Hegseth lashed out:
"This is what the media does. They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees and then they try to slash and burn people and ruin their reputations."

Woodward concurred, labeling the media reports as "fake news" and attributing the negative coverage to disgruntled insiders.

5. Implications for National Security

The mishandling of classified information by Hegseth poses severe risks to national security. Woodward expressed deep concerns about the potential consequences, including compromised operations and endangered sources.

At [21:34], Woodward stated:
"It’s careless. And it shouldn't be careless. And these people should not be careless."

He underscored the necessity for stringent protocols and the critical role of leadership in maintaining the integrity of the Defense Department.

6. The Broader Political Landscape: Insights from David Hogg

Beyond the Hegseth scandal, the episode also touched upon internal Democratic strategies to regain momentum. David Hogg, Vice Chair of the Democratic National Committee, discussed his initiative to challenge incumbent Democrats deemed ineffective, aiming to invigorate the party with new leadership.

At [38:17], Hogg explained:
"We have to make sure that this is not just a messaging problem... our base... are failing to meet the moment."

This segment highlighted the ongoing power struggles and strategic realignments within the Democratic Party amidst a turbulent political climate.

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Conclusion: A Tumultuous Period for the Defense Department and National Politics

Jen Psaki's episode presents a thorough examination of Secretary Pete Hegseth's controversial tenure, enriched by Bob Woodward's expert analysis. The unfolding events not only jeopardize national security but also reflect deeper fissures within the political establishment. As investigations continue and more details emerge, the episode underscores the critical need for accountability and competence in safeguarding the nation's defense interests.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Bob Woodward at [16:00]:
  "There is none of that [competence and management skills]."

• Pete Hegseth at [04:25]:
  "Nobody was texting war plans."

• Bob Woodward at [21:34]:
  "It’s careless. And it shouldn't be careless."

• David Hogg at [38:17]:
  "We have to make sure that this is not just a messaging problem."

---

This episode serves as a crucial lens into the challenges facing the Defense Department under Hegseth's leadership and the broader implications for U.S. governance and security.

Transcript

[Host]

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[Pete Hegseth]

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[Host]

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[Pete Hegseth]

Dear old work platform. It's not you, it's us. Actually, it is you. Endless onboarding, constant IT bottlenecks. We've had enough. We need a platform that just gets us. And to be honest, we've met someone new. They're called Monday.com and it was love at first onboarding. Their beautiful dashboards, their customizable workflows got us floating on a digital cloud nine. So no hard feelings, but we're moving on Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use.

[Host]

Okay, the first thing I should tell you tonight is that Bob Woodward is here. Yes, that Bob Woodward. All the president's men. Bob Woodward, the reporter who toppled the president. Bob Woodward. I can tell you that when you're working in government and Bob Woodward's number pops up on your phone, which has happened to me, you, your heart rate picks up a little bit no matter what administration you're in. And he's going to be here at the table in just a few minutes. But first, I want to show you something he said the last time we spoke, because it was right after the election, just a few weeks after. And one of the things we talked about was the glaring incompetence of the people Donald Trump was picking for his cabinet. People like Pete Hegseth.

[Bob Woodward]

I have known over the reporting time I've had for five decades, 16 secretaries of defense, going back even before I was reporter Robert McNamara. And they have to know management. They have to know what the responsibility is. They have to know where the levers of power are. And in this appointee, I see none of that.

[Host]

Sixteen secretaries of defense. I see none of that, is what he said. And yet it didn't take an investigative mind like Bob Woodward's to know that Pete Hegseth as secretary of Defense might be slightly problematic. I mean, before running the US Military, he was a weekend morning show host on Fox News with a reputation for going years without washing his hands. Which, by the way, is his admission, just to make it even weirder and no shade to cable news hosts, obviously, even ones who get a little crazy on New Year's Eve. You can see there it's not a job that exactly prepares you to run the Pentagon as your next step. There were also the countless allegations of Hegseth drinking on the job, both at veterans organizations and at Fox News. The New Yorker reported he once got so drunk that he had to be restrained from getting on a stage at a Louisiana strip club. There were the allegations that he ran those relatively small veterans organizations into the ground financially. And of course there were the allegations about his abuse of women, including a second wife. He denied all of it, of course, but yeah, it's safe to say there were some signs that maybe this guy wasn't exactly fit for the job of overseeing the Defense Department. And so when we saw this headline at the end of March, it was one of those things that was both shocking but kind of unsurprising. And the very first paragraph of Jeffrey Goldberg's story was again, both shocking but entirely unsurprising in a lot of ways. I mean, here's what it quote, the world found out shortly before 2pm Eastern Time on March 15 that the United States was bombing Houthi targets across Yemen. I, however, knew two hours before the first bombs exploded that the attack might be coming. The reason I knew this is that Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense, had texted me the war plan at 11:44am the plan included precise information about weapons packages, targets and timing. Well, a few hours after that story was published, Jeffrey Goldberg was here at this table. And we watched together as Pete Hegseth looked straight into the camera and lied about what Jeffrey Goldberg knew to be true.

[Pete Hegseth]

You're talking about a deceitful and highly discredited so called journalist who's made a profession of peddling hoaxes time and time again. Nobody was texting war plans. And that's all I have to say about that.

[Bob Woodward]

I'm going to be responsible here and not disclose the things that I read and saw. I will describe them to you the specific time of a future attack, specific targets, including human targets meant to be killed in that attack. Weapons systems, even weather reports.

[Host]

Now, as you know, eventually Goldberg did release the screenshots of what Hegseth texted him, laying out in explicit detail the weaponry and sequencing involved with that attack. And even after those screenshots were released, after Hegseth kept on lying, I noticed.

[Pete Hegseth]

This morning, out came something that doesn't look like war plans. And as a matter of fact, they.

[Host]

Even changed the title.

[Pete Hegseth]

II Attack plans Because they know it's not war plans. There's no units, no locations, no routes, no flight paths, no sources, no methods, no classified information.

[Host]

I mean, I've watched that clip a lot of times. It's almost like the louder he talks, the more believable he thinks it will be, I guess. I don't know. But even though we knew he was lying, even though we knew he had texted war plans to report, or attack plans, whatever you want to call them, he kept his job. Trump defended him. Republicans in Congress didn't do a whole lot. And despite the fact that there were obviously other signal chats with classified information on them, that story kind of faded into the background, in part because Donald Trump decided to tank the global economy and also ship people to foreign prisons, where without any charges. My point is, there were a lot of pressing stories to cover, but over the past few days, we started to get this sense that something else might be coming out of Pete Hegseth's Pentagon, because on Friday, top officials of the Pentagon started getting fired, and they started getting fired for it. Wait for it. This is almost my favorite detail, leaking. And believe me, the irony is only going to get richer as we keep telling this story. Three Pentagon officials close to Hagseth, his former senior advisor Dan Caldwell, former Deputy Chief of Staff Jaron Selnick, and the deputy Defense Defense Secretary's Chief of Staff Colin Carroll, confirmed they were placed on administrative leave. On Friday, we also learned that Joe Casper, Hegseth's own chief of staff, would be transferring to a different role in the Pentagon. And John Elliott, another senior Pentagon official, also said he resigned last week, although the Pentagon said they asked him to resign. So lots of firings, a bunch of resignations, apparently about leaks. So, yeah, it kind of felt like something was coming. Well, lo and behold, late yesterday afternoon, the New York Times dropped a bombshell report about another signal chat. The Times writes, quote, defense Secretary Pete Hegseth shared detailed information about forthcoming strikes in Yemen on March 15 in a private signal group chat that included his wife, brother, and personal lawyer. Some of those people said that the information Hegseth shared on the signal chat included the flight schedules for the F A 18 Hornets targeting the Houthis in Yemen. Essentially the same attack plans that he shared on a separate signal chat the same day that mistakenly included the editor of the Atlantic. Now, Hegseth's brother Phil does work at the Pentagon, although he is not anywhere near a role that directly involves military operations. And for good reason. As the AP reports, based on Phil Hegseth's publicly available resume. His past experience includes founding his own production podcast production company and working on social media and podcasts at the Hudson Institute. That said, Phil the podcaster might have some kind of security clearance. We really don't know. As for Hegseth's wife, well, she has already been kind of a point of contention. You see, Jennifer Hegseth does not actually work for the Department of Defense, and yet we know that she has been sitting in on sensitive meetings. As the Wall Street Journal reported just last month, quote, one of the meetings, a high level discussion, took place at a sensitive moment for the Transatlantic alliance. One day after the US Said it had cut off military intelligence sharing with Ukraine. The group discussed the US Rationale behind that decision. The Pentagon has been asked in the past about whether Jennifer, a former Fox News producer, has a security clearance. I don't know why she would, but who knows? They have declined to answer the question, which is quite telling on its own. But here's the thing. Even if both Jennifer the wife and Phil the podcaster do have security clearances, there's still no reason for the Defense Secretary to be texting them attack plans and details about a military operation. Because typically the people who have access to this type of information are categorized as need to know. And if you're in the need to know group, it means it's essential that you have the details of the operation or classified information in order to do your jobs. Meaning just because you have a certain level of security clearance, it doesn't mean you have access to every piece of information that is in that level of security clearance. It's if you really need to know it. Generally that group does not include a liaison officer like Phil Hegseth as and it certainly does not include the Secretary's spouse. So that story broke yesterday and then Secretary Hegseth's day got, I would say, even worse. As I mentioned just a moment ago, his former aide, a guy by the name of John Elliot, one of the staffers who quit, published an op ed in Politico describing his month from hell as he describes it working for Hegseth. Elliott writes that, quote, it's hard to see Hegseth remaining in his role for much longer, adding, quote, the last month has been a full blown meltdown at the Pentagon and it's becoming a real problem for the administrat administration. Elody also hinted at the Secretary's week getting even worse, saying, quote, this is quite a thing to write in an op ed. There are very likely more shoes to drop in Short order. With even bigger bombshell stories coming this week, key Pentagon reporters have been telling sources privately, who knows what will come? We'll see. But a former senior aide is predicting that. Now, just for some context, John Elliott is not at all some sort of undercover resistance crusader. He's the Pentagon. The former Pentagon spokesperson best known for a statement to ESPN defending the Pentagon's decision to wipe references to baseball legend Jackie Robinson's military service by saying, quote, DEI is dead at the Defense Department. It's that guy. He's also the one who took the lead in kicking a number of prominent media outlets like the New York Times, the Washington Post and CNN out of their Pentagon workspaces. I mean, he's a dyed in the wool MAGA guy. He probably still has his hat in his closet. Maybe he's wearing it on the weekend, I don't know. He's been with Donald Trump since the 2016 campaign and he actually spends much of that op ed I quoted lavishing praise on Trump's warped view of national security. But he draws the line at Pete Hegseth. And now at least one Republican, one Republican congressman seems to share his view, saying out loud for the first time that Hegseth must go. And yet all day long, the White House did what it always does. Right before Donald Trump unceremoniously fires someone on social media, we see there's like a pattern here. They close ranks around the guy. The press secretary even took the time to deny a report that Hegseth was about to be fired. And they all just of course, blame the media for reporting on what people inside the Pentagon told them.

[Pete Hegseth]

This is what the media does. They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees and then they try to slash and burn people and ruin their reputations.

[Bob Woodward]

It's just fake news. They just bring up stories. Sounds like disgruntled employees.

[Host]

This is what happens when the entire.

[David Hogg]

Pentagon is working against you and working.

[Host]

Against the monumental change that you are trying to implement. The trumpet in that first few parts is quite something in the background. But that aside, I mean, the Pentagon is working against Pete Hegseth like the entire Pentagon as an institution. Did the entire Pentagon as an institution type a signal text chain on the Secretary of Defense's personal phone that included detailed military operations and then force him to include his wife and brother? Because that would be quite a story. That would be a huge story. Of course that's not what happened. And these are the same non denial denials that Trump world always churns out when they know that a reporter has caught them red handed doing something they're not supposed to do. Sadly, we're kind of used to this by now. Seems like every day this administration is scrambling to clean up one mess or another message. Because when it comes to staffing, the government, Donald Trump isn't sending his best. As I said at the top of the show, Bob Woodward is standing by. And once upon a time, there was a movie many of you probably saw made about his dealings with perhaps the most famous leaker in American history. And just listen to the way history rhymes in this scene from all the President's Men.

[David Hogg]

Forget the myths that the media has created about the White House.

[Bob Woodward]

The truth is, these are not very bright guys and things got out of hand.

[Host]

The real Bob Woodward is standing by and he joins me in just 60 seconds.

[Pete Hegseth]

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[Host]

As promised. Joining me now is legendary journalist and associate managing editor of the Washington Post, Bob Woodward. Bob, it's great to see you. That movie is so good. So it was just a reminder of what a moment in history that was. But I was so excited to talk to you for a million reasons. I've read all your books, but Also you've covered 16 secretaries of defense. I think I got that right. I know I said that earlier.

[Bob Woodward]

Yes.

[Host]

And I know we talked about Secretary Hegseth. He wasn't the secretary then when we last spoke in November. And there's so much that's happened since then. You know so well about the functioning of the Pentagon and what impacts things. Is there anything that surprised you and what concerns you the most about what you've seen in terms of his leadership?

[Bob Woodward]

Well, you need to address the question and think about what is the Secretary of defense in her system? The secretary of defense is deputy president for war. So you want that position to be filled by somebody who's very serious, very competent, very focused on that mission, protecting the homeland, protecting the United States. And having known and dealt with 16 of them, there is, you can have somebody like General Mattis, who was probably the most serious person to ever work in Washington. And then, you know, the current Secretary of Defense, Hexit isit's just too jokey. It's too unserious. And he kind of radiates unseriousness. And that's a shame for him, for President Trump and for the country.

[Host]

It's one of those questions I always think about is why does he keep him around? I mean, there's things like, well, he has to get another secretary of defense confirmed. That's not always that easy. But he does have a big majority in the Senate. He now, though, has made some big public mistakes. Trump has a pattern sometimes of wanting to control people. Is that part of it, or why do you think he keeps saying that?

[Bob Woodward]

Well, I think Trump doesn't worry about incompetence. He worries about loyalty. And loyalty is the first virtue. And in a situation like this, it's bad for the country. It is something that a president thinking through the responsibilities of being president. I remember I asked Trump once, what's the job of the president? And he had a very good answer, which is to protect the people. Protecting the people. When you think about the Pentagon and the military and the Defense Department, you want to make sure it's competent. You want to make sure that it's not this kind of boys club of grab rear ends. I mean, it's just, it doesn't, it isn't Right. It doesn't serve. Trump doesn't serve. The country doesn't serve. You know, I spent five years in the Navy and you and I worked the last year in the Pentagon. And you learn about obligation, you learn about how important the task is. And that means serious getting down to dealing with the business in the most careful and constructive and creative way. And I don't see any of that. Now.

[Host]

You still talk to a number of people in the Pentagon. I mean, the thing about the Pentagon, State Department, other agencies in Washington like that is that people can serve in them for decades. Right. There are people I know you still know who have worked for other secretaries of defense. I just outlined some of the people who were fired and quit. They were people Hegseth brought in for the most part. What do people you still talk to say about his leadership and how they're feeling about this moment?

[Bob Woodward]

Well, it goes to the commander in chief. And the commander in chief should put the obligation on his own shoulders to make sure there's somebody there. I'm going to go back to saying it. Deputy president for war. War is the most serious undertaking that this country ever gets involved in. And I just, I mean, this seems not serious. It seems too jokey. And it's in Trump's interest to have a very, very, very serious enterprise in that five sided building which is certainly one of the most complicated institutions in civilization anywhere, no question.

[Host]

I don't know if you heard me say that, but I said that. When you see Bob Woodward on your phone call and you get a little nervous if you're in the government because you are a very well sourced and knowledgeable reporter for many years. And I was wondering, I mean, I've been the signal gate or the signal chain scandal, whatever you want to call it. It struck me because I spent so many years working for presidents and a Secretary of state where you have to be so careful about your handling of classified information for a range of reasons, including that adversaries can get their hands on it. You can put operations at risk. You can put sources and methods at risk. We know about now two or more signal chats. I suspect there are many more given nobody objected on the signal chats. What do you think about this story? Do you think there's more underneath it that we should be concerned about?

[Bob Woodward]

I don't think so based on, you know, but maybe we'll discover that it had some consequence. I mean, it didn't interrupt the military action that was going to take place and did take place, but it's careless. And it shouldn't be careless. And these people should not be careless. And you know, old rule leader, ship starts at the top. Somebody's got to demand, you know, let's tighten this. Let's, let's do our best and show our best. And we're not seeing that. And I don't, you know, where, where, where do we go? Why do we have this condition? We should not. Trump cares, again, as I say, about loyalty, not competence. And competence is the essence of jobs like this.

[Host]

I suspect that's why Pete Hegseth might be sticking around. We're going to see what other signal chats come about and any intel impacts and then we're going to have you back and talk more about it. We'll see. But I know you said you could stick around. Can you still stick around for another block?

[Bob Woodward]

Certainly.

[Host]

That would be great. We have more we want to talk about. I want to ask you about something else Trump is doing right now that I think you have some concern about that you haven't talked as much about. But we're going to be right back after a quick break.

[Bob Woodward]

Certainly.

[Pete Hegseth]

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[Host]

Okay, Bob Woodward is still here at the table with me as promised. And I want to mention just a few stories to start this off that may seem different, but I have a common thread running through them. There's the ongoing economic crisis that Donald Trump created single handedly because of his longtime obsession with tariffs. There is ongoing threats to fire the chair of the Federal Reserve, which continued today and sent markets falling off a cliff again. There's Trump's efforts alongside the world's richest man to fire federal workers and gut federal agencies at will. There's the ongoing assault on institutions like universities and law firms that Trump views as adversarial. There's the detaining and deportations of legal residents for exercising their right to free speech. The implementation of a centuries old wartime law to detain and deport migrants without due process at all to a foreign prison, and of course, the repeated disregard of court orders, including rulings from the Supreme Court. I could literally go on, but we only have so much time. And like I said, all of these stories might seem very different. They're about different things, but the through line across all of them is a president who sees himself as all powerful, who sees himself as immune to accountability and above the rule of law. And that's important to talk about, too. Bob Woodward knows a thing or two about abuse of power by presidents. He's back with me now.

[Bob Woodward]

Thank you.

[Host]

There's so many things, I mean, we just talked about national security, obviously the economic story right now and understanding that and diving into the why I think is important. I know Trump has been obsessed for a long time with terrorism. You've reported that, you've talked about it.

[Bob Woodward]

He is, he thinks tariffs are a good remedy. Well, tariffs are a tax on consumers. I mean, consumers wind up paying, there may be some benefit, but if there was real benefit, we'd feel it in the economy. Now we basically have a good economy that he's meddling with in a way, throwing bombs of ignorance right in the middle of a process that should be allowed to go on naturally. It's a shame. And it has a real impact on people. You just can't. It's not the stock market, but it has an impact on prices. It has an impact on the stability that people feel in their own lives and in the institutions. Very frightening time for citizens of the.

[Host]

United States, no question about it. I mean, in the first term, he kind of went to the brink. He did some of it. He was pulled back by some people internally. Clearly he's not now, obviously this is getting a ton of coverage, as it should out there, so people can understand what's happening. But you have covered. You followed Trump. Noel, you know his thinking. For people who think he going to back off from pressure from the business community, from others. Do you think he's going to or are you concerned he may not?

[Bob Woodward]

Well, the theme and I spent a long time, one year, 2020, the last year of his first presidency, interviewing him 19 times for nine hours. And you get a real sense, more than a sense, but you know, what's it all about? Why? And it's all about him. It's not about the consequences of his action.

[Host]

And is it power? It's what his gut instinct is. When you say him, what do you mean by that?

[Bob Woodward]

Him, the Trump who makes decisions. In the Trump who makes decisions, there's no coherence, there's no plan. It's very random. I feel that we see it daily. And he is now on a vengeance tour of, you know, people who've worked for him or have not worked for him, people he doesn't like or thinks he doesn't like. I mean, the using executive orders to attack people as he has by name and institutions. That's not what I mean. Somebody needs to say to him, what's the goal? What are you trying to do? Are you trying to disrupt and smash the country you lead? Is it vengeance? Is it some sort of payback? It's very troubling. And the people who are paying are the people who can afford to pay the least. Prices are going to go up. There is going to. I actually wrote out. This is boring, but I took a broad survey of what. What does all of this mean, particularly about tariffs, which he loves, which, you know, can boost manufacturing in the US A little bit, but not much. It will protect some jobs, but not much. I mean, it's proven by what has not happened. So increase prices for everyone. That's a disaster. Slow economic growth, which is the mainstay of what the president should say. How do I accelerate economic growth?

[Host]

Most presidents would.

[Bob Woodward]

Lowing business profits, Businesses are hurting job losses, decreasing productivity of our workforce. And you know, what's happening abroad, rattling foreign governments, saying, what the hell is going on in the United States?

[Host]

No question about it. Let me ask you. There's so many stories and we've covered a lot of them to cover right now and to pay attention to you have decades of experience of knowing when there's more threads to pull from stories because there's more there that people should know. If you were given direction to all of the Bob Woodward's out there investigative reporters, what do you wish people would spend more time, what do you think they should spend more time digging into from that, from an investigative perspective?

[Bob Woodward]

Everything.

[Host]

Everything. You want to pick one or two.

[Bob Woodward]

The economy, foreign policy, and talk to people who are in the government as much as you can. I mean, they're clearly our disaffected people, people who were saying, I didn't sign up for this. As always in my business, the solution is more aggressive, thoroughly mapped out reporting. And that means going to people, knocking on doors without appointments if necessary, if you can't get appointments and asking what's going on. I think people in this outer circle around Trump are very worried and very nervous and realize the consequences of all of this are he's defining an era of chaos. And in his own interest, in the interest of his legacy, in the interest of his human and moral responsibility as president, he needs to say, okay, now how are we going to go about this? How are we going to fix this? What are we trying to accomplish? Looks too tragically like he's trying to destroy too much. He's got Elon Musk running around in a way, a madman without portfolio. Just go anywhere, do what you want. What does your sniffer tell you? Needs to be cut. And this is going to be quite an era to make a book out of. The problem is it grows and grows and grows.

[Host]

We'll all be looking forward to more of your reporting, more of the investigative reporting out there. Bob Woodward, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. Coming up, we're going to take a quick break. We're going to be right back. But we saw more massive protests all across the country this week. And we'll talk about that. There's clearly energy on the ground. The question is how should Democrats use it? Everyone doesn't agree. DNC Vice Chair David Hogg has a few ideas that have been causing a bit of a stir. He doesn't seem to mind. We're going to talk about that. He joins me next.

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[Host]

Okay, we know Democrats don't control a lot of Washington right now, but one thing they do have across the country is a ton of momentum. I mean, over the weekend, on the 250th anniversary of the start of the American Revolution, thousands took the streets for what demonstrators called no Kings Day. This comes just two weeks after the Hands off protests on April 5th. So no, this isn't just a one off or a one day thing. Clearly there's energy, clearly there's urgency. And the real question for Democrats right now, which I think is a very helpful, like healthy one, is how are they going to channel it? Well, David Hogg, the 25 year old Vice chair of the Democratic National Committee, is thinking about things, I would say just a little bit differently than they've been thought about in the past. His organization, called Leaders We Deserve, is planning to spend they Hope to spend $20 million to oust some Democratic incumbents and to elect younger members in their place. He says they will focus heavily on House races and back primary challengers only in safe Democratic districts. We'll talk to him more about what he's thinking at this point Now, David predicted that this might anger a lot of people, his words. And he was kind of right. I mean, longtime Democratic strategist, he's been on this show a number of times. James Carville said it was the most insane thing he's ever heard. And Democratic leader Hakim Jeffries also weighed in when he was asked over the weekend. I look forward to standing behind every single Democratic incumbent, from the most progressive to the most centrist.

[Advertiser]

And all points in between.

[Host]

Primaries are a fact of life. But here's the thing. I'm going to really focus on trying.

[Bob Woodward]

To defeat Republican incumbents so we can.

[David Hogg]

Take back control of the House of Representatives.

[Host]

So clearly, David Hogg has struck a bit of a nerve. Sometimes winning does require doing things differently, thinking about things differently, at least having a conversation about it. So that's what we're going to. He is now vice chair of the dnc, and he joins me now. David, how are you? Good to see you. Had a week.

[David Hogg]

Thanks for having me.

[Host]

Let me just start by asking you. I mean, Speaker. He's not speaker yet. Let's hope not.

[David Hogg]

Yet he will.

[Host]

Leader Jeffries, he obviously has a big stake in winning in the House. Winning the House, as do all of us. Becoming Speaker. Everyone does. But he would become speaker of the House. Of course. He clearly has a different view of how this should be approached. He's talked about defending incumbents. You have a different take. Help people understand why.

[David Hogg]

The fact of the matter is right now, if you look at where we are on the generic Democratic ballot, if we had the midterms today, we're most likely not going to win the House back. Our approvals are not very good right now. They're at about 27% for our party. And the fact of the matter is, we have to make sure that this is not just a messaging problem. Unfortunately, we say all the time, this is just messaging. This is just messaging.

[Host]

I agree with you. I used to have a mug that said, not a comms problem. Sometimes it's more substantive. Keep going.

[David Hogg]

Exactly. And sometimes you can have the best script ever. You could have Shakespeare write the script for all I care. It doesn't matter if you don't have good actors, ultimately. And what we're seeing around the country right now is our. Our base. We're failing to meet the moment. A lot of our members of Congress are failing to meet the moment, frankly. And we need to make sure that they know that they're going to be held accountable and we're going to have primary challenges in our safe seats. Where we have members of Congress who, when they're not being effective or they're not able to meet this moment, that they know that there is a young person who is willing to challenge them and there are resources behind them. And I would say as well, if we think about some of the best leaders that have out there, whether it's Ro Khanna, whether it's Eric Swalwell, whether it's aoc, whether it's Cory Booker, all of those people got there through Democratic primaries. And we need to make sure that we're having a healthy process of holding everybody accountable in our party to build the strongest Democratic party possible to fight back in this moment. Because what I'm concerned about a lot more is not what the people in the building right next to us are feeling, which is Congress, but much more about the fact of who loses in this situation. We just lost an incredibly important vote in Congress because two of our members literally, unfortunately passed away. Right. That is a problem.

[Host]

So is that because one of the things I know you're thinking about is just what are the criteria? You've said you're not going to go after Jan Schakowski or Nancy Pelosi because you think they're effective members. I think those are your words. Is it over a certain age? Is it how many districts? Is it? What are the specifics at this point?

[David Hogg]

So right now, let me be clear. This is not specifically when it comes to the candidates that we are targeting. It's not just, oh, if you're over a certain age, you should not be doing this. Unfortunately, there are people of all ages who are failing to meet this moment in different ways. Right now, what we're looking at are the it's not out with the old and in with the new. It is out with the ineffective and in with the effective. And part of what we're doing with this announcement is waiting to see who retires here and says, you know what? It is time. I'm not ready to meet this moment anymore. And I know for a lot of our members that they will decide that ultimately.

[Host]

Okay, I know. I love about you that you never hold back and you say what you think. I'm wondering because James Carville said this was a crazy idea or a bad idea.

[David Hogg]

Now, he also predicted we would win the election in a landscape.

[Host]

A lot of people predicted that. What is true is a lot of people predicted that. Now, he is definitely not a young person. I don't think even he would say that. He did help a governor most people had not heard of an unlikely path to the presidency. So I guess my question for you is, why take the bait and attack him back? Why in this moment?

[David Hogg]

I think the fact of the matter is we say over and over again, we just need to listen to the experts over and over, over and over. And of course, experience matters, but experience is only as useful as it's. As it's actually working. We had $2 billion last election cycle, and we still lost. And I think part of the problem that we have here is a major brand problem at the Democratic Party. When people go into the ballot box, they're not just thinking, oh, you know, is this, how am I thinking about my frontline member of Congress, for example? That's obviously important, and we need to support those members, and we plan to support some of them. Obviously. What they're thinking about, though, is what do I think about the Democratic Party? And that is the product not just of one member of Congress, but all of our Democratic members of Congress and what they're doing and how they're fighting back. And the fact of the matter is, right now, we are failing to meet that moment around the country. And we're seeing it in our town halls, we're seeing it in our emails where people are saying, we're not going to give money until there's major changes in the Democratic Party. And I want to make sure that that is used productively in safer seats to build the strongest party that we can. Because it's not just enough to be the party that is not Donald Trump. We have to be a party that actively is working to provide a better vision than Donald Trump. And right now, I feel like we're lacking that in many senses. And our young people are uniquely positioned to be able to meet that moment right now.

[Host]

I mean, one of the things that's really inspiring is young people running for office. No question. Let me ask you, because you currently have a seat at the table as a vice chair, one of the five vice chairs of the dnc.

[David Hogg]

Yes.

[Host]

This doesn't violate bylaws. It is something that has.

[David Hogg]

And other vice chairs have been involved in primaries before.

[Host]

Yeah. It's something, though, that has angered traditional DNC members. Some of them are. Some of them. Some of them. I don't want to overstate, but how do you think, I mean, do you. Are you ready to put that at risk? I mean, if they said, you can't do this, are you going to still.

[David Hogg]

This is a break the glass moment, so.

[Host]

Meaning if they tell you you can't do this, you're Going to leave your vice chair job.

[David Hogg]

Ultimately, if they decide to remove me, I have no control over that. I'm going to do everything in my, I got elected to this position to fight to win back our young people and make sure that, that across the board, with every single, with every single demographic, pretty much except the elderly and the highly educated, we lost margins this past election cycle. This is a major crisis for our party right now, and it needs to be met with the ferocity it deserves so that we're able to win back those young people, win back the margins that we lost with a lot of those demographics. And that's not going to happen with the traditional tactics of just standing by and acting like, oh, you know, if we, let's just play our turn and let's just hope if we put two, $200 million behind these, these frontline candidates that we're just all of a sudden going to get to winning again. We need bold tactics in this moment. Our base knows it. And I will tell you, although there are people in this town that this is upset that are benefiting from the status quo. They want to do two things at the same time. They want to keep the same people in the positions of power that they're in right now, and they want to win. But we cannot do that. We have to bring in new people. So if people want to support our work, they can go to leaderswe deserve.com.

[Host]

David Hogg, thank you for being here. When you know more, when you learn more, when you figure out candidates, I hope you'll come back and talk more about it. We're going to be right back. We're going to take a quick break. The news today that Pope Francis has died brought me back to the time he visited Washington, D.C. about 10 years ago in 2015. I was working in the Obama administration at the time. And while visits by foreign dignitaries and heads of states were always important, of course, the visit by Pope Francis was an especially big deal. I mean, about 15,000 people, you can see the pictures there, crowded into the white lawn to hear him speak. That's not to mention the thousands more who lined the streets just to catch a glimpse. And when it came time for his address to a joint session of Congress, here's what he said. We, the people of this continent, are not fearful of foreigners, because most of us, because most of us were once foreigners. In many ways, his message there was more of an aspiration than a reality. Even back then, I mean, even then, there was a lot of division in our politics. But I'm not saying that anyone delivering that same message today could get that kind of applause from both sides of the aisle. I don't think they could. It's now been almost 10 years since that visit. I think it's fair to say our country has grown even more divided and our politics more polarized in that time. But Pope Francis message stayed exactly the same. Yesterday on Easter Sunday, he gave his blessing to the crowds below his final Easter message, read in part. On this day, I would like all of us to hope anew and to revive our trust in others, including those who are different than ourselves or who come from distant lands, bringing unfamiliar customs, ways of life and ideas for all of us are children of God. A lot has changed in our world, of course, and in our politics, definitely, since Pope Francis visited Washington in 2015. But Pope Francis never did. We'll be right back. Okay, before we go, I just want to end with a little joy because my son Matthew turned seven this week. Hopefully he's not watching right now because he's sleeping. He better be sleeping, or at least he's pretending he's sleeping. But for any parents or grandparents out there, I'm sure you relate to this. I mean, of all the jobs I've had, the best one is being a mom to my two kids. And of all the people I've prepped and briefed in my career, there have been many. No one asks harder questions than they do just to give you a little flavor. In the last few weeks, Matthew has asked me whether your bones go with you to heaven, why Americans can't travel to Iran. Yes, he's a child in Washington who hears the news and one of the hardest ones, whether zombies exist. I have some answers to most I try. I'm taking all your suggestions. Parents, grandparents, non parents, aunts. You can find me on [e-mail] Happy birthday, Matthew. I hope you're sleeping. Thanks for keeping me on my toes. That does it for me tonight. You can catch the show every Sunday at 12pm and Monday at 8pm on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. For now, goodbye from Washington and we'll see you next week. Make your Memorial Day weekend joyfully chill.

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[Host]

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