← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
Outrage grows over ICE overreach as public gets wise to Trump's dirty tactics to round up immigrants
00:41:28
Jen Psaki reports on yet another public official being arrested by ICE in the course of their heavy-handed tactics in rounding up immigrants. But each new instance of abuse of power by ICE is met with more vocal outrage and louder public protests.
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- [00:00]
Unknown Speaker 1
Substance use disorder and addiction is so isolating. And so, as a black woman in recovery, hope must be loud. It grows louder when you ask for help and you're vulnerable. It is the thread that lets you know that no matter what happens, you will be okay.
- [00:20]
Unknown Speaker 2
When we learn the power of hope, recovery is possible, find out how@startwithhope.com brought to you by the National Council for Mental well Being, Shatterproof and the AD Council.
- [00:32]
Nicole Wallace
MSNBC presents a new original podcast, the.
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Kathy Hochul
Best People with Nicole Wallace.
- [00:38]
Nicole Wallace
This week she sits down with NBA coach Doc Rivers.
- [00:42]
Doc Rivers
The resiliency that you have to have.
- [00:44]
Nicole Wallace
In life and in sports is what eventually will get you to the top.
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Kathy Hochul
The best people with Nicole Wallace listen now.
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Nicole Wallace
For early access and free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on.
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Kathy Hochul
Apple Podcasts.
- [01:02]
Nicole Wallace
Today, ICE agents manhandled, handcuffed and detained the third highest ranking elected official in America's largest city. They did it while masked. We're going to show you the video so you see the whole video. And they did it while refusing to show the person they were arresting. Any justification at all? He asked repeatedly, as you will see in the form of a warrant or anything else. Brad Lander, who I was just discussing with Chris, is the Comptroller of New York City. He's also a Democratic candidate for mayor and today he spent three and a half hours in ICE custody thanks to the heavy handed tactics of Trump's Department of Homeland Security. New York Governor Kathy Hochul, who had a few choice words, as I just said with Chris, to say about all of this after rushing down to the courthouse today, springing him from there after three and a half hours. She's gonna join me here live to talk about that in just a few minutes. But first I wanna show you exactly what took place today. As you may know, the Trump administration has been arresting immigrants when they show up at federal courthouses for their own immigration hearings. That's become a tactic. It's a completely dirty fear mongering tactic they use to try to run up their deportation numbers. That's why they do it. It's also been widely denounced, not just because it's dirty, because it discourages immigrants from following the law and showing up for their own hearings, which is exactly what people are doing who are showing up to the courthouse. One of the ways Democratic officials have tried to push back on this tactic is by showing up at courthouses themselves to act as escorts for those immigrants who were again, just trying to follow the law. New York City Comptroller Brad Lander has Been volunteering as an immigrant escort for the past three weeks. That was what he was doing today just before he was arrested, escorting an immigrant who had shown up for his hearing. And this is what happened next.
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Brad Lander
Do you have a judicial warrant? Do you have a judicial warrant?
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Alex Padilla
Can I see the judicial warrant?
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Brad Lander
I will let go when you show me the judicial warrant.
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Nicole Wallace
Where is it?
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Brad Lander
You don't have authority. You don't have authority to arrest US Citizens, sir. You don't have the authority to arrest US Citizens.
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Nicole Wallace
You don't have.
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Alex Padilla
I'm not obstructing.
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Brad Lander
I'm standing right here in the hallway. I asked to see the judicial warrant. By asking that you. For a judicial warrant, you don't have the authority to arrest US Citizens. Asking for a judicial warrant.
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Nicole Wallace
To be clear, he was holding onto the immigrant he was escorting. That was part of what he was doing there. And according to a spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security, Lander was arrested for assaulting law enforcement and impeding a federal officer. Yes. You heard that, right? I mean, you just saw the video. That's why we played it. It's important to see the whole thing. Maybe you've already seen it today and the Department of Homeland Security is trying to say it was Lander who was doing the assaulting. About four hours later, he was released, a little under four hours from detention without facing charges.
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Brad Lander
I'm New York City Controller Brad Lander, and I'm happy to report I am just fine. I'm gonna sleep in my bed tonight, safe with. I'm grateful to hear that the charges are not being brought, but if they are, I've got a lawyer. I don't have to worry about my due process rights. At that elevator, I was separated from someone named Edgardo, who I had just met a couple of minutes earlier. Edgardo is in ICE detention, and he's not going to sleep in his bed tonight. So far as I know, he has no lawyer. He has been stripped of his due process rights. I will be fine, but Edgardo is not going to be fine. And the rule of law. Law is not fine. And our constitutional democracy is not fine.
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Nicole Wallace
An elected official candidate for mayor being forcefully detained while exercising his right to escort an immigrant, Edgardo, in a courthouse. And for asking a very legitimate question of federal law enforcement that anyone should be asking. The thing is, this is not at all an isolated incident. I mean, that scene feels familiar, and it probably does feel familiar. It's probably because it's remarkably similar to what happened to Senator Alex Padilla at a DHS press Conference. Just last week, when Senator Padilla attempted to ask Secretary Kristi Noem a simple question about federal troops in his state, he was forcibly removed from the room, forced to the ground, handcuffed, and briefly detained by law enforcement. Well, today, at eerily nearly this exact same time that Brad Lander was being arrested in New York, Senator Padilla delivered his first speech on the Senate floor since his own detention. Here's part of what he said.
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Jimmy Gomez
You've seen the video. I was pushed and pulled, struggled to maintain my balance. I was forced to the ground.
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Nicole Wallace
First.
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Jimmy Gomez
On my knees and then flat on my chest. And as I was handcuffed and marched down a hallway repeatedly asking, why am I being detained? Not once did they tell me why. I pray you never have a moment like this. But I will tell you, in that moment, a lot of questions came to my mind. And what will a city already on edge from being militarized think when they see their United States senator being handcuffed just for trying to ask a question? And what will my wife think? What will our boys think?
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Nicole Wallace
I mean, these confrontations are happening more and more frequently, and they fit an incredibly disturbing pattern. We saw it in Newark, New Jersey, with the arrest of Newark Mayor Ross Baraka and the eventual charges brought against Congresswoman Lamonica McIver. We saw it with two members of Congress, Jimmy Gomez and Norma Torres, who were denied entry to an ICE facility in California, even though every member of Congress is allowed to do that by law, they don't even have to give notice. Congressman Gomez and Congresswoman Torres say ICE deployed a chemical irritant to keep them out. And we've seen it with other civic leaders, too, like Union President David Huerta, who was forcefully arrested by ICE and charged with impeding federal officers. And we've even seen this administration arrest a member of the judiciary handcuffing a Wisconsin judge who they allege tried to help an immigrant evade arrest while leaving her courtroom. The Trump administration is getting more aggressive about arresting or detaining these public officials. They are trying to normalize it, but with each new incident, people are learning how to stand up and fight back. This was the scene outside the federal building in New York just moments after Brad Lander was arrested. People showing up in droves to protest his arrest, holding up hastily made cardboard signs like the one you see there that said things like, release Lander. Now, I mentioned that Brad Lander is running for mayor of New York right now, New York City right now, and he's facing, of course, a lot of competition in the Democratic primary, which will be held just one week from today. But within minutes of his arrest, no less than 4 of his Democratic primary opponents rush down to the federal building to stand with him. Not just to show support, but they also talked about his leadership, too.
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Jimmy Gomez
Let's be very clear.
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Nicole Wallace
We are not here as candidates. We're here as New Yorkers. We're here to do what's right.
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Alex Padilla
We are standing here in unity. All of us see what is going on.
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Nicole Wallace
He didn't just talk the talk today.
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Brad Lander
He walked the walk.
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Nicole Wallace
And I want to praise him for that. He showed us what leadership can look like, and for that, he was arrested. And we have to be clear about this.
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Alex Padilla
This is not about an election.
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Nicole Wallace
This is about ensuring that we protect.
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Doc Rivers
The city and the country that we love.
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Nicole Wallace
Again, all of those Democrats you just saw running against Bradlander and each other, they're all running for this mayoral primary that is taking place next week. Early voting is happening. But today, they stood shoulder to shoulder with each other, calling for his release. New York Governor Kathy Hochul was also among the leaders who rushed down to lower Manhattan to protest Lander's arrest and demand his release. And after Lander was released, which he just gave her credit for, too, the governor made this pledge to immigrant families.
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Alex Padilla
The state of New York is providing $50 million to cover legal services for people who are finding themselves in this situation. We'll continue to do what we can to support the community and the immigration coalitions and thank them for their work that they're doing at this time. It's hard to see these people, to know their stories, to hug them, to know they've been separated from loved ones. I just want to say we're a better country than this.
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Nicole Wallace
New York Governor Kathy Hochul is standing by, and she joins me here live in just 90 seconds.
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Unknown Speaker 1
Substance use disorder and addiction is so isolating. And so as a black woman in recovery, hope must be loud. It grows louder when you ask for help and you're vulnerable. It is the thread that lets you know that no matter what happens, you will be okay.
- [11:46]
Unknown Speaker 2
When we learn the power of hope, recovery is possible. Find out how at Start with hope, brought to you by the National Council for Mental well Being, Shatterproof and the ad Council.
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Alex Padilla
Do you want to know what I really think?
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Nicole Wallace
Please.
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Alex Padilla
It's bullshit. How dare they?
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Nicole Wallace
Couldn't have said it better myself. That was New York Governor Kathy Hochul today, reacting to the arrest of New York City comptroller and mayoral candidate Brad Lander.
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Unknown Speaker 1
And.
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Nicole Wallace
And Governor Kathy Hochul joins Me now. Governor, thank you so much for being here with me tonight. You rushed down to the courthouse today after Brad Lander was arrested to demand his release. We heard a little bit from him earlier. Can you just walk us through what happened today, including your interaction with officers at the building?
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Alex Padilla
Yes. And thank you for your coverage of this deeply troubling story that seems to be unfolding all across our country. Jen. I literally was in a part of Brooklyn known as Little Haiti. I was walking the streets, talking to people who are so frightened, living in the shadows. Once vibrant street was now almost a ghost town because people are terrified. And then while I'm out there trying to meet these people, let them know we see them, we're going to support them, then I get the word that one of our elected officials for the city of New York has been arrested. And I know Brad Lander. I went right down there and I wanted to see him. I went up to the ninth floor, and they wouldn't let me come in. But I had a chance to talk to ICE officers and the people in charge, and my head of Homeland Security came down, and head of my counterintelligence and all the professionals that I work with, we all stood there and I said, I'm not leaving until you let him out. I want him released. Because what are the charges? What are you possibly saying? We all saw the video, and after about an hour of me waiting and talking to a lot of people, they said they'd release him without charges. But Brad Lander has all the attorneys and attention on this he needs. I mean, he can take care of himself. I'm confident of that. But what I cannot get out of my mind are all the people that are so terrified right now, the ones who go into those courtrooms following the law and the procedure, told, show up this date for your court appearance, and then they're sitting ducks while they're in the courtroom. They withdraw their legal status and they walk out and they're captured. This is beyond the pale, and we have to stand up and call it out for what it is and say we are a better country than this. And the voices that we heard during the marches over the last weekend, the people who stood up there, the elected officials, are doing their part. We have to stand up and say no more. And I'll tell you this, as I said under eight hours of questioning in Congress just a few days ago, I will work with the Trump administration to remove the people he said he was going after. I will help you get the criminals out of here. The Ones who are violent criminals, who are hurting other people. The human traffickers, the people dealing in drugs, people with guns. I want them gone. I'll help you, but don't take care of the home health care aides, the 160 who are going to lose their jobs that I've met today and talked to. They'll lose their jobs and they lose their status. You know what that means? There's 160 vulnerable New Yorkers who are going to lose their caregivers and the people who work in the restaurants, in hospitality. Let them get jobs, pay their taxes, be part of our communities. Like my grandpa was a migrant farm worker. Everybody comes and starts out and struggles. But you know what? Over time, it works. It's the American dream. And that dream is dissipating by the moment here in this country. And we cannot let it go.
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Nicole Wallace
No question about it. And I know, and I just mentioned that you had announced today the State is dedicating $50 million for legal assistance for immigrants. And I want to ask you about that in one moment. I think one of the things that was so striking about today, many things, was that, you know, Brad Lander was released without charges. You said earlier today that to your knowledge the charges have been dropped and that he walks out of there free man. But the U.S. attorney's office said that it is investigating his actions to and would decide later whether to charge him with a crime. This is all on video, which we played the full video. Are you confident there won't be charges? And I raised this because he's just escorting immigrants to the courthouses who are trying to abide by their court hearings.
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Alex Padilla
That's all he's doing. And he did it without any fanfare over a number of times. Just a lot of people are volunteering. These people are terrified. I mean, these are our neighbors. These are people who lived among us for many, many years sometimes. And people are just doing the right thing. They're showing their humanity. And he showed up and just escorting someone and speaking to him and just trying to let him know it's going to be okay the best we can. And then you have them ripped apart and terrorized the way they were. And to go after elected officials, I mean, no, no, it's wrong. It's wrong. And again, we will help the Trump administration, we have been doing this for years, get rid of the true criminals. But coming here to seek asylum as they have for the last few years, or coming with temporary protected status like 300,000 Venezuelans did, and people from Haiti they had legal status when they came. So when you take it away once they're here, it's just like a cruel joke on them. So they're not the criminals. Let's find them a legal pathway. Let's give them work authorization. I know the Trump administration is capable of doing this. They can do this. And there'll be a lot of employers, including the people in my state, New York, I have 400,000 open jobs as we speak. They're not taking someone's job. They'd be doing an important service to us. Let's have a conversation. Let's ask Congress why you won't do something as simple as passing common sense, bipartisan legislation to reform our immigration laws. Find legal pathways. Yes, we have to secure our borders. No one doubts that. But the people who are here and already contributing, come on, We're a nation of immigrants. That's why we're so great.
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Nicole Wallace
I mentioned a couple times that you announced the $50 million for legal assistance, which is very powerful. And as Brad Lander mentioned, a lot of these people don't have legal representation. This tactic though, which I called dirty earlier, cuz I think it's dirty of these agents showing up at courthouses and kind of stalking people who don't have criminal records or not trying to, are just trying to abide by what they're supposed to be doing. Is there anything you can do as governor to stop those tactics or other governors can band together and do.
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Alex Padilla
No, they're not allowed in New York State courts. You know, and let's think about this. When we this was passed a few years ago, law enforcement supported this because people who've been victims of crimes or witnesses of crimes, if they think that if they go in to be involved in the criminal justice system to maybe to solve a crime, that they could be removed instantaneously. We want to make sure that we are working to protect our community. People are safer when people feel they can come forward. But apparently in federal courthouses here in New York City and all across America, they're basically staking out people who walk in the front door to keep an appointment they were given. They're told by go before this judge on this date or check in. I mean, a heartbreaking story. Just a couple weeks ago, a mom takes her two boys, 19 and 20 year old, down to make sure they're legally checking in as they're told to do. Guess what? She walks out without them because they took him away from her. She doesn't know where they are. We're all human beings. If we can't find some compassion in our hearts at this moment and do what's right, history will judge us very poorly. That's why we're urging the administration go after the really bad ones like you said you would. That's my plea. Go after the bad ones. We'll help you. Every state will help you. But can we just leave these law abiding people alone? Can we just do that?
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Nicole Wallace
There are so many stories like the ones you mentioned and the ones we saw play out today. Governor Kathy Hochul, I know you've had a day. So thank you so much for being here with us helping helping explain all of the video footage we've just showed everybody watching. Really appreciate you being here.
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Alex Padilla
All right. Thank you, Jim.
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Nicole Wallace
Coming up, we are following some new back and forth between Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and Governor Gavin Newsom tonight. Late today we got what seemed like a dramatic announcement about thousands of more National Guard troops to la. But the governor's office just called that announcement cleanup from the Pentagon and said it's not a new deployment after all at all. I'll explain that after a quick break.
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Unknown Speaker 1
Substance use disorder and addiction is so isolating. And so as a black woman in recovery, hope must be loud. It grows louder when you ask for help and you're vulnerable. It is the thread that lets you know that no matter what happens, you will be okay.
- [21:07]
Unknown Speaker 2
When we learn the power of hope, recovery is possible, find out how@startwithhope.com brought to you by the National Council for Mental well Being, Shatterproof and the AD Council.
- [21:24]
Nicole Wallace
Tonight, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth made the dramatic announcement that he was activating another 2000 California National Guard troops for deployment to Los Angeles. It turns out that is not actually the case, but Secretary Hegseth's announcement is dramatic nonetheless. According to a statement from California Governor Gavin Newsom's office, quote, this isn't a new deployment. It's the same group of soldiers who have been diverted from critical wildfire work and work at the border now twiddling their thumbs for Donald Trump's political theater. Tell us how you really feel that's breaking down the truth there. Newsom's office says that Hegseth's announcement was just him re announcing the second set of 2,000 National Guard troops that he had already activated last week. The total number of National Guard members deployed to Los Angeles is still 4100. So why is Exodus re announcing a chunk of that deployment and confusing everyone? Maybe that's the point. Here is how Governor Newsom's office put it, this is cleanup from the Pentagon. The description of what they are and aren't going to be doing is meant to be consistent with their legal position, rather than the immigration enforcement support we've seen them doing in Los Angeles. And look, right now, the streets of Los Angeles are calm. Just hours ago, LA Mayor Karen Bass lifted the curfew on downtown LA. The thin veneer of justification Trump had for federalizing the National Guard is dwindling, to say the least. But Trump still wants the National Guard there, and he needs Hegseth to get his legal ducks in a row to be able to keep them there. You see, in Los Angeles, there are already about 500 National Guard troops who have been trained to accompany ICE agents while they conduct immigration raids. And clearly the plan is to grow that operation, obviously not just in California. Trump has already said that his deployment of National Guard troops in California is, quote, the first, perhaps of many. According to an operation plan described to NBC News by multiple sources, a month before any National Guard members were sent into Los Angeles, the Department of Homeland Security had requested up to 21,000 National Guard troops to help the agency with its immigration agenda. It was part of what Immigration and Custom Enforcement was calling Operation At Large. I planned to ramp up arrests and detain a quota of 3,000 immigrants a day. ICE had already been pulling in agents from other branches of law enforcement, like the FBI and the DEA and even the IRS by the thousands to help with those arrests. But to get that kind of numbers, to get those numbers they wanted, they needed the National Guard, which is what makes a hearing that happened today in a federal appeals court in California so important. Because last week, the state of California sued the Trump administration for sending in the National Guard against the governor's will. The merits of that case could take weeks or months to be settled. But while that case makes its way through the courts, California has asked for immediate relief, asking for control of the California National Guard to be given back to the governor, which is standard in every state. Well, their lawsuit makes its way through the courts. That's what they're asking. Now. Today, a federal appeals court had a hearing on that specific question. And as the New York Times puts it, the appeals court seems inclined to let Trump control the National Guard in LA for now. Letting Trump keep control of the California National Guard while this case works its way through the courts could mean months of federal immigration agents having thousands upon thousands of National Guard members supporting their immigration agenda. That could mean that it could set a precedent for Trump to send in the National Guard, in more states all across the country, which, as he's told us, is kind of the point. Soni Miner now is Javier Becerra, former California Attorney General, former Secretary of Health and Human Services, and current candidate for California governor. Secretary Becerra, thank you so much for being with us tonight. I want to just start. I want to get into the merits of this case in just a second, but I want to first ask you specifically about what the impact would be if this appeals court lets Trump keep control of the National Guard while the merits of this case make their way through the court. I mean, what would it mean for California and even the country in the meantime? As he's indicated, this may be a model he wants to expand.
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Kathy Hochul
Jen, first, thanks for having me. But two, what I think is really perilous about this is that this could license this could court could license a president utilizing our military and the National Guard in ways that really intrude on a state's police power, the ability to do public safety the way we think it should be done. And it's done under the COVID of trying to protect against insurrection and all the rest, one way or the other. The Trump administration wants to, as you've just said, beef up its ICE forces so they can do massive deportation. They can't do it with the size of the current DHS ICE force, so they have to try to supplement. The only way to do that is to essentially try to wink at the courts and say they're going to try to do something that's according to the law in the use of the National Guard, when in fact, it really isn't.
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Nicole Wallace
The 9th Circuit Court panel, I just read some of the analysis out there, but you are the former attorney general of California. I mean, they seemed skeptical of California's position that Trump did not have the authority to federalize the state's National Guard, or that's how a lot of analysts are reading it. Is that how you read it? And does that stance, I guess, surprise you? I'm sure you disagree with it, but does it surprise you?
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Kathy Hochul
Yeah, I read the Constitution, and the Constitution tells me that the federal government cannot try to go into a state and essentially usurp its state powers to take on actions. How the Trump administration tries to categorize this and how the courts try to help interpret this is what I think is somewhat in question. Look, Jen, I think the courts are trying to bend over backwards to help the executive in the White House be able to do things. But at some point, it's always Clear that Donald Trump goes overboard. That's what I found when I was attorney general. And that's why I was able to sue him over 120 times in many cases, in cases that were very similar to what we see today, where they go way beyond their authority and they try to couch it differently.
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Nicole Wallace
Let me ask you, see, I've been talking to you. You're putting your old hat on. You have many old hats on here. Are there cases that you think sitting attorney general should be doing against Trump that they're not now? Are there tactics you learned from all of those times you sued him that you think should be employed more now?
- [28:00]
Kathy Hochul
There are certainly more cases that can be filed, some more consequential than others. All of these different executive orders that essentially undo congressional mandated action would certainly be subject to judicial review. I believe that the Trump administration will go as far as the courts will let them. And there are things that the states can do. I used to tell my team when I was attorney general in California, we want to be ready to counterpunch before the Trump administration tries to punch. So this way we don't let them think we're going to let them get away with their actions. And in some cases, we were able to file a lawsuit against a Trump action within days of them actually announcing it. And that was because we essentially could telegraph where they were going to go.
- [28:46]
Nicole Wallace
Predicting it sounds like a little as we all did in government, red teaming and preparing for what might be happening. Secretary Becerra, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. Coming up, the self proclaimed anti war president, he's self proclaimed it many times, not just me saying it is starting to look a lot less anti war. And what happens next is kind of anyone's guess. I've got some thoughts about it. I'm going to talk to someone very smart who also has some thoughts about it when we come back. For the past five days or so since Israel launched attacks against Iran and Iran responded in kind with their own attacks against Israel, there has been this growing list of questions. I'm sure you have them, too. And concerns about what is actually going on and what still might happen over the next few months, days or even hours. I mean, last week at the onset of the strikes, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said explicitly that Israel's objective was to take out Iran's nuclear capabilities. However, since then, the Israeli military seems to have widened its targets, striking Iran's oil and gas refineries and killing much of the leadership and intelligence officers inside Iran's Revolutionary Guard. Netanyahu has notably not ruled out any actions that would bring about regime change in Iran. And that has set off alarm bells and raised the specter of the United States officially joining Israel in this war. And fears about that prospect are not at all unfounded. I mean, just today, Reuters reported that the US Military has begun bolstering its forces in the Middle east, including sending more fighter jets to the region. So now the bigger question is what exactly is Trump's endgame in all of this? Cuz it's gonna impact all of us. Because remember, for years, Trump has branded himself as an anti war peacemaker. He's repeatedly claimed that he was always against the war in Iraq right from the start, which is a total lie. But in 2016, Trump stood out, partly because he said stuff like this.
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Donald Trump
Obviously, the war in Iraq was a big fat mistake. The war in Iraq, we spent $2 trillion, thousands of lives.
- [30:53]
Nicole Wallace
We don't even.
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Donald Trump
We should have never been in Iraq. We have destabilized the Middle East.
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Nicole Wallace
Now. Trump continued branding himself as a peacemaker in his first term and ran on that message in the 2024 election, where he reiterated time and again that he's not only against the ongoing wars taking place around the globe, but that he would use the power of the presidency to stop them.
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Donald Trump
Upon taking office. I will also restore peace through strength. I will get that war in Ukraine settled so fast. I'll get that war settled before I even become president. I want to see the Middle east get back to peace and real peace, but a peace that's going to be a lasting peace. We will measure our success not only by the battles we win, but also by the wars that we end, and perhaps most importantly, the wars we never get into. My proudest legacy will be that of a peacemaker and unifier. That's what I want to be, a peacemaker and a unifier.
- [31:55]
Nicole Wallace
A peacemaker and a unifier. Not exactly the words I would use at any point in time during his presidency, either one or his public life. But that aside, fast forward to last week and within an hour of Israel attacking Iran. Last Thursday, Secretary of State Marco Rubio released this. We are not involved in strikes against Iran, and our top priority is protecting American forces in the region. Let me be clear. Iran should not target U.S. interests or personnel. The Trump administration, loud and clear, declared that the US had zero involvement in this dramatic escalation. But that arm's length distance only lasted a few hours until Friday morning when Trump the peacemaker, self described again, started to send a different message, that Israel's attacks against Iran were excellent and that there was more to come. Fast forward again to yesterday. After a bloody weekend of crossfire between Israel and Iran. Trump abruptly left the G7 summit in Canada a day early, announcing in advance, posting an ominous message online that appeared to suggest more carnage was to come. Simply stating, Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. I said it over and over again, everyone should immediately evacuate Tehran. Evacuate Tehran. I mean, it's a city of 9 million people where tens of thousands of civilians are already struggling to evacuate. Got it. And Trump continued his escalations today, posting again online, this time using the pronoun we when describing Israel's apparent success in targeting Iran. He also threatened to kill Iran's supreme leader or didn't. Take it off the table, I guess, is a way to describe it. Now, there's a very real issue at hand here that goes beyond rhetoric. Israel ultimately wants the US to join this war because they want to attack what's considered the heart of Iran's nuclear program, the Fordo nuclear fuel enrichment plant, which is heavily fortified, built into a mountain. It's deep inside of a mountain, which means only a 30,000 pound American made bomb carried by an American B2 stealth bomber can even attempt to reach Fordo. And let's just say I have a lot of questions. I'm sure you have a lot of questions. Like again, what is Trump's end game here? What is the goal? You've got to think about the day after always. Will he thrust the United States into war by delivering those bombs? Is the goal just to destroy Fordo? Is it larger than that? I have just the person to ask. Jeremy Bash is the former chief of staff at both the Defense Department and the CIA and he joins me next. We don't know yet whether the US Will get actively involved in Israel's strikes on Iran. Are more involved. But one major factor could be Iran's fortuneuclear facility buried deep inside a mountain. I was just mentioning this. And Israel's ambassador to the US has said that Israel's operation in Iran has to be completed with the elimination of Fordo. But to do that, experts think Israel might need to use a bomb that only the US Is capable of dropping. Kelsey Davenport from the Arms Control association told the Washington Post that Israel can't destroy hardened sites like Fordo without US Military assistance. These circumstances raise a lot of questions, like is this just about the one nuclear facility? I mean, that's a significant decision too, but is it just about that? How Did Trump become so receptive to US Involvement? That's a hard to answer one, most importantly, what comes next and what are all the factors Here I have just the person to help answer them. I've been waiting to talk to him all day. Joining me now is Jeremy Bash, former chief of staff at the CIA and Department of Defense. I was just telling you when I was reading everything over the last last 24 hours, I just had this list of things that seemed contradictory, that were hard to understand, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. So let me just start with Fordeaux, because for do is 200 kilometers away from Tehran. It is a huge nuclear facility site, one that Iran has, I mean, Israel has wanted to get rid of for a long time. Trump also posted Evacuate Tehran when he was saying he was leaving the G7. What do you make of all of these pieces? One, can Israel do, Can they get rid of FORDO without the U.S. can they do it remotely without the U.S. military? I think the answer is no, but you tell me if you agree with that. And two, what did you make of the Tehran evacuation call? Because that's a city of 9 million people.
- [36:09]
Doc Rivers
Well, Israel does not have a bomber force. It has an effective fighter force, aircraft that can conduct aerial targeting, but it can't actually carry that 30,000 MOP, that massive ordnance penetrator, which is the only weapon that can go deep into the mountain. And what Iran did, and the Obama administration, when it came in in 2009, saw the intelligence that Israel had developed that showed that Iran had buried deep under a mountain, a cascade hall, to spin centrifuges to develop weapons grade uranium. That's bomb fuel for a nuclear weapon deep in a mountain. If you're interested in civilian nuclear power, you don't have to build a bunker of a cascade hall. And by the way, the cascade hall was small, meaning it wasn't large enough to provide civilian nuclear power. It was so small, but it had just enough capacity to build a nuclear weapon. And so since that time, Israel, the Gulf countries, Europeans and the United States have been very focused on freezing what Iran is doing at Fordo. And all of the diplomatic efforts have, frankly been unsuccessful. Trump pulled out of the Iran deal that had inspectors on site. There were reports that Iran was dispersing some of its capabilities. Israel says there's new intelligence saying that Iran is moving more quickly to enrich uranium and develop a nuclear weapon. And the United States really stands as the only player in the world who could actually take out Fordo.
- [37:35]
Nicole Wallace
So let Me ask you, because you've been in these meetings in a variety of capacities from the CIA and DoD, you do planning the day after planning or weeks after or months after planning to think about if the US if the military capability of the United States is used just to say, just to take out the nuclear facility in Fordeaux. What are the impacts? Iran is going to respond. What does that look like? The preparation of attacking troops? Is there something on the homeland we should worry about? What do you think about?
- [38:01]
Doc Rivers
There's no such thing as one and done. And anytime you brief a military operation to a secretary of defense or commander in chief, not only do you talk about risk to the mission, but you also talk about risk to the force. So, for example, if we were to fly a stealth bomber and try to hit Fordeau, if we joined Israel in this campaign, the biggest question will be, what happens the next day? What happens to our troops in Qatar, in Bahrain, in uae, on naval vessels in the Persian Arabian Gulf? What happens to our allies and partners? What happens back to Israel, what happens to Jordan, what happens to Egypt? What happens to UAE and Saudi Arabia and the other GCC countries? So we have a lot of interest at stake. There's no such thing as one and done. We can't just fly a weapon into a nuclear facility and say that's it, that's the end of the nuclear program first. You can't really kill off know how. So Iran is going to still try to get a nuclear capacity. We have to be very vigilant through diplomacy and other means, including deterrence, to prevent Iran from continuing to want to get a nuclear weapon.
- [38:59]
Nicole Wallace
Let me ask you about some of the other pieces beyond Fordot, because Netanyahu did not take off the table going after trying for a regime change, which, I mean, they've already taken out some of the leaders there. Trump, Trump also didn't take off the table going after the ayatollah. Again, I referenced before, you know, Trump saying evacuate Tehran, that is much bigger. How do you think about what the implications of that? We don't know that he's going to do that. But what is the implications of taking, trying to take out the ayatollah or bombing Tehran?
- [39:29]
Doc Rivers
Well, I subscribe to the Colin Powell rule, which is the Pottery Barn rule. You break it, you buy it. And I think our lessons of the last 20 years, both in Afghanistan and Iraq, has been when you try to replace the government, the institutions just won't work themselves. And so it's very hard for the United States. It's very hard for any country to kind of fantasize and effectuate any effective regime change. So I really think that before there's discussion about regime change, we should be talking very clearly and very resolutely about what are our objectives, how do we prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. And I would put on the table even a policy shift, which is that Iran shall not be allowed to enrich on its soil. All the other diplomatic deals have allowed for some enrichment and said, you know, you can enrich to low levels. I think maybe we have to be tougher and say no enrichment on Iranian soil and then see if Iran takes that deal.
- [40:21]
Nicole Wallace
We only have about less than a minute left. But, I mean, do you think there's any scenario where a discussion over a deal is even possible right now? I mean, Trump's.
- [40:30]
Doc Rivers
Not right now. Not right now. But I do think in the medium term, over the coming weeks and months, we're going to have to talk to the Iranians, either directly or indirectly. Ultimately, Jen, the only way we're going to stop Iran from becoming a nuclear weapons state is through a diplomatic effort coupled with strong military force.
- [40:49]
Nicole Wallace
Jeremy Bash, thank you for bringing all of your expertise. You know many, many things in your head. I really appreciate you being here. Unfortunately, I think this is going to be an ongoing discussion, so I hope you'll come back, talk to me about it again. Coming up, how do you respond when tragedy hits? It's a question, unfortunately, a lot of people have faced lately, including the families of a state senator and her husband in Minnesota. The president of the United States doesn't have a clue, but the people of Minnesota sure do. We'll talk about it when we come back. The tragic murders of Minnesota state Rep. Melissa Hortman and her husband Mark, allegedly for political reasons, has led to a steadying contrast in the category of what not to do. Republican Senator Mike Lee of Utah spread politicized lies and even cracked cruel jokes about the tragedy. His Democratic colleague, Senator Tina Smith of Minnesota, who knew the victims personally, confronted Senator Lee about his behavior. You can see that photo right there on the screen just off the Senate floor last night. Her chief of staff then sent an email to Lee's team, further educating them on how not to respond to political violence. Why do people need this education in the Senate? Here's what they wrote. Have you absolutely no conscience, no decency? I pray that if, God forbid, you ever find yourselves having to deal with anything similar, you find yourselves on the receiving end of the kind of grace and compassion that Senator Mike Lee could not muster. Lee finally deleted his offensive post earlier today, but is yet to acknowledge he did anything wrong. Then in the category of what to do are the children of victims Melissa and Mark Hortman. They chose to spread a very different message, writing in a statement, quote, our parents live their lives with immense dedication to their fellow humans. This tragedy must become a moment for us to come together. Hold your loved ones a little closer. Love your neighbors. Treat each other with kindness and respect. If you would like to honor the memory of Mark and Melissa, please consider the following Then they had a list. Plant a tree. Visit a local park. Pet a dog. Tell your loved ones a cheesy dad joke and laugh about it. Bake something, try a new hobby and enjoy learning something. Stand up for what you believe in, Estate, Especially if that thing is justice and peace. Those are the kids of two people who were brutally killed on Saturday morning. That's incredible, Grace, and we had to read it all to you. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok for now. Goodbye from Washington and we'll see you next week.
- [43:32]
Unknown Speaker 1
Substance use disorder and addiction is so isolating. And so as a Black woman in recovery, hope must be loud. It grows louder when you ask for help and you're vulnerable. It is the thread that lets you know that no matter what happens, you will be okay.
- [43:52]
Unknown Speaker 2
When we learn the power of hope, recovery is possible. Find out how@startwithhope.com brought to you by the National Council for Mental well Being, Shatterproof and the AD Council.