Pritzker looks to hold law-breaking ICE agents to account

Summary

The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode: Pritzker looks to hold law-breaking ICE agents to account
Date: October 17, 2025
Host: Jen Psaki
Network: MSNBC

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Episode Overview

This episode centers around escalating federal interventions in American cities under the Trump administration, specifically focusing on the militarization of urban areas like Chicago and New York City, attacks on peaceful protest movements, attempts to criminalize left-leaning organizations, and the legal and political pushback from Democratic leaders. Jen Psaki interviews Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker and NYC mayoral candidate Zoran Mamdani on their responses to Trump’s policies, with insights from Rachel Maddow, who contextualizes the moment by drawing on parallels to the civil rights movement and the power of protest. The episode is rich in historical analysis, tactical guidance for activists, and current political strategy.

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Key Segments and Discussions

1. Context: Mass Protests and Federal Response

[01:02–06:15] Jen Psaki Monologue

• Protesting Trump’s America:
  Psaki outlines mounting reasons for Americans to protest, ranging from the militarization of cities to reports of U.S. citizens abused by immigration agents, a persistent government shutdown affecting healthcare and federal workers, and clear profiteering by Trump’s inner circle.

• MAGA Messaging:
  Conservative voices brand upcoming mass protests (the “no Kings” protest) as anti-American and claim they are orchestrated by extremists and foreign funders.

  “They have a Hate America rally...you’ll see them on Saturday on the Mall.” – (Various Republican figures, [06:17])

• Weaponization of Federal Apparatus:
  Psaki highlights exclusive reporting that the Trump administration is planning to mobilize agencies—the IRS, FBI, and DHS—against left-wing, nonviolent organizations based on dubious links to protest violence, echoing historic efforts to suppress dissent.

2. Learning from History: Civil Rights Movement Parallels

[12:49–22:59] Rachel Maddow Segment

• Rachel Maddow Interview:
  Maddow discusses lessons from her new documentary on Andrew Young and the civil rights movement, drawing direct lines from the past to today. She emphasizes the deliberate, disciplined nonviolence of MLK’s protests despite provocations and calls out government attempts to discredit or criminalize peaceful protest.

  • Maddow on the Power of Protest:

    “If you are wondering whether or not protest still works, it can still make big changes — ask the people of South Korea...Nepal...Bangladesh...All over the world right now.” ([14:28] Rachel Maddow)

  • Why Nonviolent Protest Matters:

    “The way that you defy [government attempts to tar protestors as criminals] is by being scrupulously nonviolent, by being unafraid, and by being willing to laugh in their face when they deserve it.” ([17:32] Rachel Maddow)

  • Economic Boycotts:
    Maddow, via archival audio from Andrew Young, discusses the effectiveness of economic boycotts, referencing the Birmingham campaign:

    “The boycott was almost 100% effective...The end result was that Birmingham actually desegregated itself a year and a half before the federal government got around to it.” ([19:55] Andrew Young)

  • Modern Relevance:
    Maddow highlights the continued sensitivity of corporations and institutions to public pressure, reinforcing the strategy of economic activism:

    “All the institutions...are very sensitive to public feedback...that kind of economic pressure can really, really make a difference.” ([20:44] Rachel Maddow)

3. Zoran Mamdani: NYC Mayoral Candidate on Fighting Federal Overreach

[25:37–34:26] Zoran Mamdani Segment

• Standing Up to Trump:
  Mamdani details his stance against Trump’s National Guard deployments and ICE raids, criticizing rival Andrew Cuomo for being insufficiently confrontational:

  “What New Yorkers need is a mayor who can stand up to Donald Trump and actually deliver on that safety...that’s who I am, because I’m not funded by the same donors that gave us Donald Trump’s second term...” ([25:37] Zoran Mamdani)

• Combating Federal Retribution:
  He explains legal and coalition strategies to protect NYC’s infrastructure and funding from Trump’s punitive actions:

  “We would work together to protect New Yorkers from these kinds of political acts of retribution.” ([28:07] Zoran Mamdani)

• Diversity and Inclusion:
  Mamdani speaks to his historic campaign as an openly Muslim candidate, denouncing bigotry and pledging to unite the city across religious and ethnic lines.

• On Israel, Diversity, and Generational Change:
  Mamdani addresses complex questions about his positions on Israel, anti-Semitism, and interfaith relations:

  “No matter what a New Yorker feels about Israel and Palestine...I’m looking to be their mayor as well...celebrate and cherish those New Yorkers.” ([31:16] Zoran Mamdani)

4. Governor J.B. Pritzker: Legal Pushback Against Trump Administration

[37:44–46:52] JB Pritzker Segment

• Court Victories:
  Pritzker celebrates a string of recent legal wins limiting both National Guard and ICE activities in Illinois, describing the judiciary as a key line of defense:

  “We’re five and O in the courts...the administration is operating unlawfully and the courts are...finding it unlawful.” ([38:30] J.B. Pritzker)

• Prosecuting Law-Breaking ICE Agents:
  Pritzker outlines strategies for holding federal agents accountable for abuses under state law if federal oversight fails:

  “We’re looking at all the options at the local level...to go after people when they’re breaking Illinois law...So it seems like they ought to be held responsible for breaking local and state laws.” ([40:09] J.B. Pritzker)

• On Stephen Miller’s Influence:
  Pritzker is blunt about the role of senior Trump advisor Stephen Miller, calling him dangerous and alleging that Trump’s “diminished capacity” allows Miller to direct harsh federal actions:

  “Donald Trump has diminished capacity, which I think is sad...that the people around him are not getting him help, and instead they’re just taking advantage of him. And that’s what Stephen Miller is.” ([42:29] J.B. Pritzker)

• Condemning Rising Antisemitism:
  Reacting to Politico’s reporting on antisemitic messages among young Republican leaders, Pritzker rebukes the Vice President’s lack of condemnation:

  “It’s clear that every level of this administration is corrupt and that’s what he’s demonstrating.” ([45:38] J.B. Pritzker)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rachel Maddow ([14:28]):
  “If you are wondering whether or not protest still works...ask the people of South Korea...All over the world people are rising up against what they perceive to be despotic leaders...The United States...is never going to have a government overthrown by street protests...but what will happen is...probably the largest protests ever in American history.”

• Andrew Young ([10:54]):
  “The march had been deliberately disrupted…Police did not respond toward the 20 or 30 people who were breaking windows, but immediately charged into the entire group...I would hope that the courts of this country would not respond to the kind of fascist proposals that are being offered by members of Congress.”

• Zoran Mamdani ([25:37]):
  “We do not need [the National Guard] for the purpose of safety...What New Yorkers need is a mayor who can stand up to Donald Trump and actually deliver on that safety.”

• J.B. Pritzker ([40:09]):
  “[ICE agents] are not immune from the federal government holding them accountable and responsible...So we’re looking at all of the options at the local level...when they’re breaking Illinois law...we could hold them responsible.”

• J.B. Pritzker ([42:29]):
  “Donald Trump has diminished capacity...Stephen Miller is...taking advantage of him...He seems like a dangerous individual, and he has the power of the presidency because the president isn’t reining him in.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:02] — Jen Psaki’s monologue: civil rights parallels, MAGA response, federal militarization
• [10:54] — Andrew Young’s recounting of Memphis protest and government suppression
• [12:49] — Transition to Rachel Maddow interview
• [14:28] — Rachel Maddow on global power of protest and American context
• [17:32] — Maddow details the effectiveness of humor, discipline, and widespread action
• [19:55] — Andrew Young on boycotts in Birmingham
• [20:44] — Maddow on economic pressure in the modern era
• [25:37] — Zoran Mamdani’s debate response on National Guard deployment
• [28:07] — Mamdani: strategies for fighting Trump’s funding cuts
• [31:16] — Mamdani on Jewish community relations and anti-Semitism
• [37:44] — Pritzker on court victories against ICE and National Guard moves
• [40:09] — Pritzker on local prosecution of federal agents
• [42:29] — Pritzker on Stephen Miller’s influence
• [45:38] — Pritzker condemns Republican leadership’s response to antisemitic texts

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Tone and Language

The episode is urgent, principled, and deeply analytical, mixing incisive critique with actionable insights. While always measured, Psaki and guests do not mince words, especially when referring to perceived threats to democracy, constitutional norms, and civil rights. The tone blends moral seriousness with glimpses of hopefulness about collective action and the power of ordinary citizens to make change.

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Summary Takeaways

• Mass Protests Against Authoritarianism:
  The Trump administration’s heavy-handed use of federal law enforcement and attempts to suppress dissent are sparking mass, peaceful protests; Republicans attempt to delegitimize these actions with conspiracy rhetoric.

• Learning from History:
  Both the civil rights movement and contemporary international movements offer timeless strategies — nonviolent direct action and economic pressure.

• Legal and Political Countermeasures:
  State and local leaders like J.B. Pritzker and Zoran Mamdani describe innovative legal and political strategies to hold federal agents accountable and protect their communities against federal overreach.

• Call to Action:
  The episode encourages listeners to use all available democratic tools, from protest and public pressure to economic activism and legal action, to safeguard rights and resist encroaching authoritarianism.

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For those who want both historical context and up-to-the-minute strategy in the fight over democracy, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

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[Jen Psaki]

Quite a stacked lineup of guests for you tonight. I can't believe it myself. I mean, we have Illinois Governor JB Pritzker, who's here to talk about the Trump administration's militarization of Chicago and what he's doing as governor to push back. He had a big press conference today. We'll talk about that. And fresh off his very first debate, I'm also going to talk to the frontrunner in the race for New York City Mayor. Zoran Mamdani is going to come here as soon as he is off that debate stage and makes his way out. But before we get to them, I'm gonna be joined by the one and only, probably your favorite of all of those people, Rachel Maddow. And Rachel is of course, someone I love talking to anytime. But tonight is very special because tomorrow at 9pm Eastern, I won't actually be here because it's gonna be the premiere of Rachel's new documentary, Andrew the Dirty Work.

[Andrew Young]

When there was something that needed to be done and nobody wanted to do it, that was my job. Now we've been in quite. We just want to let you know that we are marching for you. Andrew Young.

[Rachel Maddow]

Andrew Young.

[Andrew Young]

Andrew Young. Now I will call for Andrew Young, that dedicated leader. I've been through many dangers, toils and snares. Now nothing's gonna happen. We going to the church. Martin Luther King was looking for an assistant to do all the dirty work. We don't intend to quit this fight until we get our situation resolved. I was born for this.

[Jen Psaki]

Now, to say that this documentary is timely is a total understatement. Andrew Young was one of the architects of the civil rights movement. He was one of Martin Luther King Jr. Jr. S right hand men. And his story, his legacy, is all about how to transform protest into real power and how to hold on to the right to protest when the powers that be try to take it away feels so relevant to this moment. So I really don't know what kind of crystal ball Rachel has or how she has this many hours in the day, but this documentary is coming out tomorrow. On Friday and Saturday. We are expecting literally millions of people to take to the streets for yet another no Kings protest protesting the Trump administration all across the country. You remember the last no Kings protest. Maybe many of you participated. Do you remember how big those crowds were? And city after city after city. Well, now MAGA World is trying to claim that those protests are all fake, that the protesters are just paid radical extremists, because their argument goes like this. Who else would take to the streets to protest Trump right now but radical extremists who are paid? But even just a glance at the news right now gives a whole lot of people in the country reason to protest. I mean, today ProPublica reported that they have counted more than 170 U.S. citizens that have been held by Trump's immigration agents. Citizens who ProPublica reports have been kicked, dragged, and detained for days. I could see a lot of people protesting over that. And they are. Meanwhile, Trump not only has the National Guard and federal agents occupying cities across the country, but yesterday he said that the militarization we have seen so far is just the start, saying, quote, we're going to go into other cities that we're not talking about purposely. We're getting ready to go in. I mean, I could see a lot of people, couldn't you, being upset enough about their city being overrun by feds and the National Guard to protest. That seems incredibly reasonable to me. We were also, of course, on the 16th day of a government shutdown, a shutdown that Republicans refused to end because Republicans refused to extend health care subsidies that are the only reason health care is affordable for millions of Americans. Last night, Trump also, while all this is happening, held a lavish fundraiser at the White House looking to raise $200 million from wealthy Don to build himself a ballroom. Who knows what they get in return? Something for sure. While the government remains shut down and hundreds of thousands of federal workers are furloughed without Pay. I could see lots of people who vote down the line Republican generally protesting over that. People could be mad about Trump weaponizing the Department of Justice to go after his perceived enemies. Or how he's using the government shutdown as an excuse to gut vital government agencies like the CDC and the EPA and Housing and the Department of Housing and Urban Development. And as an excuse to try to gut the office at the Education Department that oversees special education for the country. All of those layoffs are likely illegal. And some, like the layoffs in special education, have already been halted by the courts. But I could see that being a reason, couldn't you? Maybe some of you are protesting all these things. Why many people might be upset enough to protest right now. Maybe your groceries cost more. Maybe you have a friend or neighbor who's been arrested by ice. Maybe you're mad that Trump and his family and his cabinet members keep profiting off of their work in government. There are so many reasons to protest right now. But if you listen to MAGA World, you'd have to be paid to protest. You'd have to be Marxist. You'd have to hate America to protest.

[Commercial Narrator 2]

They have a Hate America rally that's.

[Jen Psaki]

Scheduled for October 18th. They're gearing up for their I Hate America rally.

[Commercial Narrator 2]

They have this big I Hate America rally. A Hate America rally. This Hate America rally. You'll see them on Saturday on the Mall.

[Zoran Mamdani]

They just do not love this country.

[Jen Psaki]

You're gonna have all the antifa and BLM and pro Hamas. Watch, watch who assembles there.

[Commercial Narrator 2]

All the Marxists will be on the Mall.

[Zoran Mamdani]

The no Kings protests, Maria.

[Andrew Young]

Really frustrating. I mean, this is part of antifa paid protesters. It begs the question, who's funding it?

[Zoran Mamdani]

There's considerable that George Soros and his network is behind funding these rallies which may well be riots all across the country.

[Andrew Young]

This will be a Soros paid for protest where his professional protesters show up, the agitators show up. We'll have to get the National Guard out.

[Commercial Narrator 2]

Give me a break. They don't believe in democracy, Jesse.

[Andrew Young]

They believe in their own power.

[Jen Psaki]

It's like a conspiracy theory, word salad from all of their mouths. I mean, other than just being massive. With estimates ranging from 4 to 6 million people, the last New Kings protest back in June was notably peaceful. It was filled with grandmas and people with dogs and kids and lots and lots of great homemade signs. It was definitely not filled with Marxist America hating paid protesters. But that is what Magellan wants you to think this weekend's protests will be like before they even happen, saying they could become riots, that the National Guard might be needed, I guess, to fend off grandmas and dogs. I mean, who knows? Now, at the same time that Republicans are trying to demonize public protests against Trump in their messaging, we are learning more and more about the Trump administration's plans to use the power of the federal government to go after groups that help organize peaceful protests. Last week, three White House officials, four Department of Homeland Security officials, and a Justice Department official told Reuters about Trump's plan to crack down on progressive groups, saying, quote, the Trump administration plans to deploy America's counterterrorism apparatus, including the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security, and the Justice Department, as well as the Internal Revenue Service and the Treasury Department, against certain left wing groups it accuses of funding and organizing political violence. A White House list also of what groups might fall into that category included groups like ActBlue, which is a fundraising tool used by many candidates and groups in the Democratic Party. And Indivisible, one of the explicitly nonviolent groups, literally trains people to be nonviolent. Behind the no Kings Day protests today, the Wall Street Journal reported yet another alarming detail about this story, reporting that the Trump administration is preparing sweeping changes at the IRS that would allow the agencies to pursue criminal inquiries of left leaning groups more easily. Here's what that story says. Quote, the undertaking aims to install allies of President Trump at the IRS Criminal Investigative Division to exert firmer control over the unit and weaken the involvement of IRS lawyers in criminal investigations. The proposed changes could open the door to politically motivated probes. The Criminal Investigative division of the IRS has more than 2,000 agents as part of the IRS, where the agents sometimes carry guns. And now Reuters is reporting that Trump wants to install an ally of his to oversee those agents to potentially bring politically motivated investigations. I know we've already seen politically motivated investigations against individuals Trump perceives as his enemies, like Tish James and James Comey. But these would be politically motivated investigations against entire organizations that try to stand up to Trump. And the baseless justification here is that these organizations planned protests where violence occurred. So far, that has not actually been the case. I mean, again, mass protests against Trump have been remarkably peaceful. And part of why Trump and the right are demonizing these peaceful protests, trying to make them seem violent, is to lay the groundwork to justify shutting them down. And that is another area in which Rachel's new documentary is incredibly prescient. Because we as a country have been here before. We have had a peaceful mass protest movement, the civil rights movement that the people in power tried to shut down by claiming it was violent. Here's a story from Rachel's new documentary, Andrew the Dirty Work, told by one of Martin Luther King Jr. S top advisors, Andrew Young, in his own words, about how segregationists tried to stop MLK from being able to march to Washington D.C. by claiming that Martin Luther King Jr. The guy you might put a picture of in a textbook next to the definition of nonviolent protest, was actually trying to incite violence.

[Andrew Young]

The sanitation workers were on strike. Their problems were so comprehensive. They had the problems that everybody else that was poor had. It frankly took over our movement. But the march had been deliberately disrupted. It's my understanding that while 20,000 people were marching down the middle of the street, a group of 20 or 30 young men went along the side and broke a few windows. This mess in downtown Memphis is what's left after a demonstration in support of striking garbage men. Police then did not respond toward the 20 or 30 people who were breaking windows, but immediately charged into the entire group of persons who remained nonviolent throughout their demonstration. Somebody felt that this movement needed to be stopped before it got to Washington. And I think somebody picked out Memphis as the place to stop it. I would hope that the courts of this country would not respond to the kind of fascist proposals that are being offered by members of Congress. If this self seeking rabble rouser is allowed to go through with his plans here, Washington may well be treated to the same kind of violence, destruction and bloodshed. Sir, I think generally the criticism from Capitol Hill is after Memphis, this is at the wrong time and the wrong place. Aren't you afraid it'll backfire? When you come right down to it, Congress doesn't have a right to tell us whether or not we can come to Washington in defense of freedom and to supposedly secure the rights of Vietnamese. They're bombing people 40, 50 times a day, dropping tons of bombs. And here 15 or 20 store windows get broken and they want to call off a revolution.

[Jen Psaki]

We have been here before. A version of here before at least. So what lesson should we take from those stories? What can the dirty work from the Civil rights movement teach us about how to handle the moment we find ourselves in right now? I have literally the perfect person to ask who I am. Sure you are the only people more delighted than me to see her might be everybody watching right now. Joining me now is of course the one and only Rachel Madd. You all know she's the host of the Rachel Maddow show and executive producer as I just noted, of the new documentary that will be airing tonight, tomorrow, sorry, tomorrow night at this time, Andrew, the Dirty Work, which is examining, as we've just talked about, the life and legacy of the civil rights icon. Again airing tomorrow night, 9:00pm Eastern. Rachel, there's so much, it feels like I said this that you looked in a crystal ball, that you may have known this was coming. Who knows? But it's so prescient because of the moment we're in. And of course, what's happening on, I mean, this Saturday will be the third major protest by the organizers of no Kings. Millions of people have already shown up. You've covered this so closely. You've inspired all of us to cover this so closely. And I think people participating may feel, some may feel like, does this matter? Participating in this protest? How does this protest make a bigger movement against the forces that could destroy our democracy? You've spent a lot of time thinking about Andrew Young and the civil rights movement. What can you tell us about what history tells us?

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me here, Jen, particularly on a very crowded, very busy night when I know there is a lot going on. You got a lot of great folks to talk to. I've been thinking about not just.

[Jen Psaki]

The.

[Rachel Maddow]

History that Andrew Young talks about in this film and that we can learn from him here, but also how it translates to the modern day. I mean, if you are wondering whether or not protest still works, it can still make big changes. Ask the people of South Korea, right, who just rose up in spontaneous nonviolent protest and ended martial law in their country and ousted the president who tried to impose it. Ask the people of Nepal. Ask the people of Bangladesh. Ask the people all over the world right now within the last few weeks who have been rising up against what they perceive to be despotic leaders and removing them and overturning their governments in peaceful, nonviolent protest. I mean, the United States of America is never going to have a government overthrown by street protests, right? That's not going to happen here. But what is going to happen here is that you're gonna have probably the largest protests ever in American history. You're probably gonna have the largest single day of protest in modern American history this weekend. And that is going to just further crystallize, I think, the sense in the mind of every American that there are tons of Americans who do not like what Trump is doing. There are tons of Americans who will make time in their day to step out and do something about it and peacefully protest to show their disag. And it will show Trump the limits of what he's able to do in a country that really doesn't like what he's doing. And you know, that certainty that I have is built on the moral inheritance that we have from the civil rights movement. Seeing the odds that they were up against, seeing the way their discipline, their perfect nonviolent discipline was able to bring them the triumphs that they achieved. I mean, there's so much to learn, I think, from the Americans that have gone before us, but also from people around the world who are using some of these same ideas and same tactics to move really impossible odds.

[Jen Psaki]

We've seen. It's such a good reminder. You can look around the world today and see people powerfully standing up. And the impact of seems so clear why they're doing this. They're doing it because it's powerful and people are powerful when they show up in a movement like this. We've also seen, I just talked about this a little bit, of course, Republicans trying to redefine this rally that's happening on Saturday. We saw, I mean, we've showed footage of you showed so much footage of it. There are grandmas and dogs and people with balloons and kids. I mean, there's a beautiful peacefulness to these protests. That's what they're training them to do as well. And yet there are a number of people in the Republican Party who are calling it a hate America rally, calling rally goers terrorists. I mean, that tells me, of course they're concerned. But it also is happening at the same time when we're seeing the Trump Justice Department use the IRS to go after left leaning groups, use their power as well. How do you look at these stories together and kind of convey to people why they should stay motivated and not fearful through this moment? Because it's understandable for people to be scared of what's happening.

[Rachel Maddow]

I mean, I think take a little bit of inspiration from what we're seeing in Chicago, right? I mean, some of what we're seeing in Chicago is these very scrappy neighborhood, like instantaneous, spontaneous protests when people see their neighbors being mistreated and abused. And we're just seeing Americans lead with the heart and just instinctively respond, join arms with their neighbors, move in to protect the people who they live alongside and who they know and who their kids go to school with and all the rest of it. The other thing that we're seeing both in Chicago now and in places like Portland is people in inflatable baby shark costumes giving Lie to the way the Trump administration is trying to mischaracterize everybody who protests against them as being some sort of threatening person or criminal. I mean, they've used that sort of a brush to tar protests, peaceful protests in this country back to day one. And the way that you defy that is by being scrupulously nonviolent, by being unafraid, and by being willing to laugh in their face when they deserve it. I mean, part of what's so funny, and that great montage you just showed of all the Republicans saying this is gonna be a Hate America rally is a. It's always funny when they all read the exact same talking point, exactly the same way. But they also are so ignorant. I mean, they think the whole no Kings thing is all gonna happen on the National Mall. I regret to inform you guys that there are, like, nearly 3,000 locations around the country where these events are gonna happen. And if it happens on the National Mall, that's one thing, but it's gonna happen everywhere. And if they're expecting some sort of one big march full of people that they can tar as, you know, Marxists or criminals or some other thing that they think is gonna be unpopular, they're just gonna be very surprised by what the actual footage looks like in their own home districts, even in lots of red states. This Saturday.

[Jen Psaki]

You can't even. I know you've had this challenge, too, of having enough boxes to show all of the protests that are happening in the country at one time, because there's so many that are so inspiring. The other thing, I think, and you get asked this question a lot. We were at this amazing event on Saturday where we were there with a lot of MSNBC viewers, and a lot of people asked me, like, what can they do? They attend protests. What else can they do? And I wanted to play a clip from your documentary where Andrew Young talks about the effectiveness of economic boycotts in Birmingham at the height of the civil rights movement, because it also feels very relevant today. So let's play that, and we'll talk about it on the other side.

[Andrew Young]

The boycott was almost 100% effective. Nobody was buying anything but food or medicine for almost 90 days. And with business, if there's conflict, if you cut into the business, 5%, they feel it. After the great struggle, this day is clearly the members of the great. The end result was that Birmingham actually desegregated itself a year and a half before the federal government got around to it.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, there are calls for boycotts all the time. We've seen this long before Trump entered the scene about a variety of things. How do you look at the power of economic boycotts and which ones? Maybe we can learn from history, maybe we can learn from other countries are effective and people should participate in. How do people decide?

[Rachel Maddow]

I mean, certainly there are organized boycotts and we've seen that, for example, around corporations repealing their DEI policies and stuff. There's been some organized boycotts along those lines this year since Trump has been pressuring corporations to do that. But I think that we should think about economic power more broadly. I mean, you look at the Kimmel fiasco, right? Like Brendan Carr and the Trump administration eventually proclaimed they had not done all the things that they had done to try to get Jimmy Kimmel taken off the air for being a Trump critic. But that was only after the institutions, the public facing and for profit institutions they were trying to act through were pressured by the American people into changing their minds. So when ABC and Disney and nexstar and Sinclair hear from their own customers and hear from the American people about what they're doing, those organizations, even right wing organizations like Sinclair, organizations like that, are very sensitive to public feedback and to consumer feedback. And even though, you know, Donald Trump and Tom Homan and Stephen Miller may not be sensitive to criticism, all the institutions that they're trying to work through to get the kind of authoritarian transformation that they want in this country, a lot of those institutions are public facing and are very sensitive. And so that kind of economic pressure can really, really make a difference. And every company that thinks about giving Trump a gold statue or taking down Ice Block style apps out of their app store or any of these other things that the tech companies and these other corporations are doing. Any company wants to do stuff like that should know that they're gonna hear from the American people about it. And I think those repercussions will continue and escalate as Trump gets more and more unpopular, as he gets more and more radical.

[Jen Psaki]

And we're gonna continue to talk about it relentlessly too. For what it's worth. Rachel Mantle, your documentary comes out at 9pm tomorrow. It's so exciting. I was thinking about, I'm a former college athlete, I was a mediocre swimmer. You used to kind of carb load the night before a big event. I feel like this is the perfect thing to watch eat pasta and piz get ready for the no Kings Day protest on Saturday. I'm sure many people will do that. And I so appreciate you being with us tonight, Jen.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. Thank you so much. I can't wait to see the rest of your show tonight. Thank you so much for having me.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you. Great to see you. I'll see you soon.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yep.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay. We got a ton to get to in the show. Always delightful to talk to. Rachel Maddow. Can't wait to watch the documentary. But Governor JB Pritzker is also standing by. After two huge court victories against Donald Trump. And first before that, Democratic nominee for New York City mayor, Zoran Mamdani is standing by for an exclusive interview following tonight's first general election debate. We'll be right back with him.

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Stay smart, stay safe, and stay protected. With a 30 day free trial at lifelock.com specialoffer terms apply. Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected, and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up [e-mail] that's o d o.

[Jen Psaki]

O.Com hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. One thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. And for decades, Angie's helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros. The projects that matter get all your jobs done [e-mail] don't look now, but it's getting cooler in the air and we are 19 days out from election Day and there is one local race that's getting more national attention than most. And tonight, in the very first general election debate of the New York City mayoral race, Democratic nominee faced off against Andrew Cuomo, the disgraced former governor who is now running as an independent along with the Republican nominee, Curtis Sliwa, who is sandwiched right in the middle there. And there was a lot in this debate, but one of the questions the candidates were asked was how they would respond if Trump deployed the National Guard in New York City like he has in so many other cities. This is How Zoran Mamdani responded.

[Zoran Mamdani]

I agree with Police Commissioner Tish in that we do not need the National Guard here in New York City. We do not need them for the purpose of safety. Because if it was safety that President Trump was so concerned about, he would send them to the 8 out of 10 states that have the highest levels of crime in this country. But he won't, because they're all run by Republicans. What New Yorkers need is a mayor who can stand up to Donald Trump and actually deliver on that safety. When Donald Trump sent ICE agents on people in Los Angeles, Andrew Cuomo said that New Yorkers need not overreact. That is the furthest answer that New Yorkers are looking for. They are looking for someone who will lead, someone who will say that they will have their back, someone who will actually fight for the people of this city. And that's who I am, because I'm not funded by the same donors that gave us Donald Trump's second term, which isn't something that Andrew Cuomo can say.

[Jen Psaki]

Joining me now for an exclusive interview following that debate is the Democratic nominee for mayor of New York City, Assemblyman Zoran Mamdani. I should just note for viewers you just did a two hour debate, so I appreciate you still being able to talk and being here with me this night, this evening. So we watched, of course, the whole debate for a mayoral debate. A lot of the debate was about Donald Trump and what he might try to do to the city. We played one part of it there. But what did you make of your opponent's answers on how and if they would stand up to Trump?

[Zoran Mamdani]

You know, I think we saw the fact that while Donald Trump wasn't on that stage, his puppet, Andrew Cuomo was. And we saw not only just the same kind of name calling and distractions, but the inability to stand up to the very billionaires that have been funding both the Trump administration and the Cuomo campaign. And what New Yorkers are looking for right now, as the Trump administration is detaining young girls as young as six years old and deporting them out of this city, is a mayor who will actually stand up for the people of this city. And frankly, we did not see that in Andrew Cuomo. And we even saw more willingness to stand up from the Republican candidate because unlike Cuomo, he can't be bought by the same donors.

[Jen Psaki]

It's quite a place to find yourself. Let's talk about a specific example, because I think the reason this question was so important is that cities like New York City and Chicago and other blue cities are just the targets by the Trump administration, as you've talked about. Now, Trump is currently trying to withhold billions of dollars of infrastructure funding from New York City as part of his shutdown strategy, as you're well aware. You talked about this a little bit in the debate, but how specifically would you respond as mayor to make sure his retribution campaign doesn't hurt everyday New Yorkers? Because it could have a big impact if he keeps holding it back.

[Zoran Mamdani]

You know, I think time and time again we see Donald Trump try to make this into a personal battle of political retribution. But these are attacks, not any one representative. There are attacks on the entire city. And what my job as mayor would be would be to tell New Yorkers how the suspension of $18 billion would continue to trap them in bumper to bumper traffic, it would continue to leave them in long train delays, and it would actually rob tens of thousands of New Yorkers of the jobs that they could have if this money that we're owed was actually to be delivered to us. And what I would also do is not treat the words of Donald Trump as law just by virtue of them coming out of his mouth. We've seen Democrats across the country, especially in California, come together to put together legal lawsuits that have then resulted that for every dollar they spend more than $30,000 in federal funds being received that would have otherwise been withheld. It's important that we have a mayor who can work with the Attorney General here, work with the governor here. I'm proud to have both of their endorsements. We would work together to protect New Yorkers from these kinds of political acts of retribution.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. Preparing for legal action feels, unfortunately, like the part of every elected official's job in this moment. Andrew Cuomo said a lot of things tonight. He said during the debate that not, quote, representative of the Muslim community of New York. What on earth do you think he meant by that? And what is your message to Muslim New Yorkers about why they should choose you over him to be the next mayor?

[Zoran Mamdani]

You know, I can't tell you what exactly he meant by that. I can only say that it took this campaign for Andrew Cuomo to actually understand that there is a Muslim community in this city and in this state. He was the governor for 10 years. He couldn't name a single mosque that he went to. I'm proud to be the first Muslim candidate on the verge of becoming the mayor of this city. And I know that what Muslim New Yorkers want is what every New Yorker wants, respect and dignity and Too often it's been denied on the basis of bigotry. And we saw some of that bigotry right here on this stage today. And we've seen it from Andrew Cuomo's campaign that has sent out mailers artificially lengthening my beard where he smeared me as a terrorist sympathizer. He has used the very kind of language that has pushed Muslim New Yorkers to the margins of our society, when in fact what we should do is treat each and every New Yorker as the same. And that's what I would do as the next mayor of the city.

[Jen Psaki]

Your relationship with New York's Jewish community also came up in tonight's debate. I know that you recently have been reaching out to rabbis and community leaders. There's been some reporting about this, too, who you disagree with and who disagree with you on your positions on Israel. And I think you're trying to build bridges. You can talk about this. But we've also seen some polling which is quite interesting for people who aren't embedded in all the New York City politics like we all are, that shows there's this growing generational divide within the Jewish community when it this is in other places, parts of the country, too, where many younger Jewish people have moved away from the positions their parents had when it comes to Israel, maybe still have. If you're elected mayor of the city with the world's largest Jewish population, what will you do to make sure that you're healing those generational divisions and really trying to continue to build bridges or better build bridges with people who have concerns about you and feel fearful?

[Zoran Mamdani]

I think the first thing is to make clear that I'm looking to lead this entire city, not just the New Yorkers who vote for me, whether in the primary or the general election, but all eight and a half million people who call the city home. And that means a number of Jewish New Yorkers who I've had the pleasure of meeting with over these last few months and even before that during the primary. And what I have said time and time again is that no matter what a New Yorker feels about Israel and Palestine or whether they disagree with me, I'm looking to be their mayor as well. And I know that a number of Jewish New Yorkers are seeing a rising anti Semitism in this city, and they want a mayor who can actually address it directly. And I'm committed to doing that. Increasing funding for hate crime prevention programs, ensuring that police continue to have a presence outside of synagogues and temples during the high holy days, and that we are Actually implementing a curriculum that celebrates the breadth and the beauty of Jewish New Yorkers right here in New York City. Because too often, frankly, the language is only, will you protect Jewish New Yorkers? It also has to be, will you celebrate and cherish those New Yorkers? And I will do that for Jewish New Yorkers and for every New Yorker, because this is their city.

[Jen Psaki]

You seem to have said, and you tell me these are your words, that you believe that Israel, of course, has the right to exist, but not necessarily that it should be a Jewish state. Help explain for people who are concerned about that or feel like it's a threat to their religion why that's not the case.

[Zoran Mamdani]

You know, I've said time and again that my focus will be here on New York City. But when I've been asked about what's happening in Israel and Palestine, I have shared that I have a reticence of recognizing any state's right to exist as a state with a hierarchy of citizenship, be it based on religion or on race. And that would be the case if we're speaking about Israel or if we're speaking about Saudi Arabia. And part of that is being an American and learning the importance of equal rights being enshrined in the Constitution of this country and believing that every country should be one where every single person there has the equal rights, no matter their race, no matter their race, religion.

[Jen Psaki]

There is less than three weeks. I'm sure you're counting down to go until Election Day. We know, because it's sweater weather for all of us. And there are some New York leaders like Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, who still have not endorsed you, which, frankly, I don't understand, and I've said many times, but if you're elected mayor without their endorsements, which you are on track to do, how does that affect your working relationship with them? I mean, how will you approach.

[Zoran Mamdani]

You know, I don't see it as affecting our working relationship at all. Because in all the conversations we've had, we've always spoken about the fact that we share constituents and we share the responsibility to deliver on their needs to afford this city. Because inasmuch as New Yorkers are under attack from an authoritarian administration in Washington, they're also under attack by an affordability crisis right here, one that's pushing them out of these five boroughs and making what used to be New Yorkers now have to live in Jersey City or in Connecticut or Pennsylvania. And I know that I will work together with every single elected official, no matter if they've endorsed me or not to deliver the city that New Yorkers deserve.

[Jen Psaki]

So Ramnamdani, if you win this election and you have just a get together dinner with Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, you can join us here. We would welcome all of you. We'll provide the food. Thank you so much for joining me after a two hour debate which I can tell you is a very, very long time. Hope you get some sleep tonight.

[Zoran Mamdani]

Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here as always.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay, coming up, we're going to take a quick break after that. Governor J.B. pritzker's message to Donald Trump today could not have been more clear. He said Illinois is not a place you can conquer and our people are not your subjects. Governor JB Pritzker is going to join me in just a moment. We'll be right back.

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Theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected with a 30 day free [e-mail] Specialoffer terms apply. Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It's can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up [e-mail] that's O-O-O.com hi, I'm.

[Jen Psaki]

Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well, from roof repair to emergency plumbing and more done well. So the next time you have a home project, leave it to the pros. Get [e-mail] today, the Trump administration lost two major court battles in their immigration crackdown in Chicago. First, a US District judge ordered that federal immigration officers must wear body cameras. This follows her order from last week, instructing agents to wear badges and to stop using certain riot control techniques like like tear gas against peaceful protesters and journalists. Orders we can all see from footage taken on cell phones and by local citizens. They did not comply with as the judge said today, I live in Chicago, if folks haven't noticed and I'm not blind right now. Hours after that ruling, a federal appeals court panel voted to uphold an order blocking Trump from deploying National Guard troops to the Chicago area. The panel wrote that the facts do not justify the president's actions in Illinois. Illinois. The court also insisted that political opposition is not rebellion. And those court orders came on the same day that Governor J.B. pritzker held a press conference with retired military leaders condemning Donald Trump for trying to put American troops into America's third largest city.

[Commercial Narrator 2]

President Trump says he wants to go to war with Chicago, use it and our people as a training ground, and is sending military troops against the wishes of its people in order to punish his political opponents. To Stephen Miller, who is pulling the strings for Donald Trump, Illinois is not a place you can conquer, and our people are not your subjects, period.

[Jen Psaki]

My conversation with Illinois Governor JB Pritzker is coming up next. We'll be right back. Welcome back. Joining me now, as promised, is Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker. There was a positive development today, as you well know. A 7th Circuit panel affirmed a temporary restraining order that is keeping the National Guard from actually deploying in Chicago. And they said political opposition is not rebellion, which is very true and very powerful. We're also living in a world, you're living in a world where this administration is not exactly complying with every order from every court. Are you preparing for the possibility that they may not comply? And what do you do if they don't?

[Commercial Narrator 2]

Well, I do want to affirm what you just said, which is we're five and O in the courts. We've won on the TRO about National Guard three times. We've won on limiting ICE twice now. In fact, this morning, there was a ruling in court about limiting ICE by requiring ICE agents to wear body cameras because the court does not believe what they are reporting. ICE is reporting in court, the federal lawyers representing them anyway. And so it strikes me as very important just to recognize that so far, anyway, way in this regard, the courts are doing their job. We know that the administration is operating unlawfully and the courts are, in fact, finding it unlawful. So what do we do if the administration decides not to follow these court orders? Frankly, I don't think we've seen that in US History where the president of the United States doesn't listen to the courts. You saw that he tried this with Abreu Garcia a little while ago, but finally came around and did. And then, of course, they rearrested him. But I think it's important to recognize that so far anyway, the administration has not been willing to, you know, to essentially go against the court rulings that have come about.

[Jen Psaki]

You said on Sunday that you were looking at prosecuting ICE agents who violate the law. What can you tell us about that? What would that look like?

[Commercial Narrator 2]

Well, we don't know yet, because let's start with the fact that the federal agents typically have federal immunity, but they're not immune from the federal government holding them accountable and responsible. And so typically there are inspectors general, there are senior officials at agencies like ICE and cbp, typically that will suspend somebody who's been accused or found to have broken the law and as they suspend them, investigate it and then determine whether that person should be punished, criminally or otherwise. The problem now, of course, is that Donald Trump has fired many of the inspectors general or he's replaced them with political appointees. And so we don't know that anybody would be held accountable at the federal level. So we're looking at all of the options at the local level with county, state's attorneys, with attorneys general to, to go after people when they're breaking Illinois law, when they're breaking local law. And, and we think that they have, you know, when they're driving through an area, someone's yelling at them and they decide to simply throw a tear gas canister out of the car. Car as they're driving through at someone who's on the side of the road. That, it seems to me, is a, I know is a violation of Illinois law. And so the question is, can we hold the officers, the agents responsible when they do something like that? If it were a police officer, we could, if it was, you know, you or me or just an average person throwing a, you know, a tear gas canister out the side of a window at people, people, we could hold them responsible. So it seems like they ought to be held responsible for breaking local and state laws.

[Jen Psaki]

It's a test of that. And in your very much on the front lines of that. Let me ask you about something that's related but slightly different. I mean, you appear to be, I guess a way to put it is under the skin of Trump's anti migrant czar, Stephen Miller. He called you a moron who hates America. You mentioned him a few times today, too, saying he has abused the fact that Donald Trump has diminished capacity. You brought him up a couple times, which was interesting. But what did you mean by that?

[Commercial Narrator 2]

Well, very plainly, it's clear that Donald Trump has diminished capacity, which I think is sad, you know, that the people around him are not getting him help, and instead they're just taking advantage of him. And that's what Stephen Miller is. You can tell, you know, his rhetoric is so out of bounds. And then we know that he's the one who is advising Kristi Noem at dhs. He's the one who's advising Tom Homan, who's the kind of immigration czar, deportation czar, and of course, he's the spokesperson for this entire endeavor, including about deploying National Guard into cities. So, I mean, he's, he's seems like a dangerous individual, and he has the power of the presidency because the president isn't reining him in. And so that's why I'm talking about Stephen Miller. I think that we should focus on his actions. And let's remember, and I've said this for some time, you know, they're not always going to be in office, but they will. Other than the President, who's now been given immunity by the, the Supreme Court, the people who serve for the president, including all the way down to ice, agents can be held accountable when there's a change of administration. Who's willing to hold them accountable when they break the law. Now, Stephen Miller is clearly ordering people to break the law. So, you know, he should know that, yeah, it may be three years from now that he is held accountable, but make sure. I think it's important for them to know, know that whatever they do now, it's not like we're going to forget, and it's not like we don't have a record of what they're doing. So that is why I mentioned Stephen Miller. That's why I mentioned other people. Tom Homan and Gregory Bevino, who's the CPB CBP leader on the ground, the one who executed their orders in Los Angeles, which was. I mean, they did an awful job in Los Angeles and created all kinds of mayhem on the ground. Now he's doing it in Chicago. And so all these people need to recognize that, you know, you may have immunity because Donald Trump's willing to pardon anybody that's carrying out his unlawful orders. But you're not going to have it under another administration.

[Jen Psaki]

Hakeem Jeffries told me something similar when I spoke to him last week. Before I let you go, I had to ask you about this story. When I saw it, I thought, I wonder what Governor Pritzker thinks about this. I'm going to ask you. I mean, Politico released leaked texts From a group chat, I'm sure you saw this, of a Young Republican group that included completely vile anti Semitism, praise for Hitler, I mean, calls to put political opponents in gas chambers. The members were ages 18 to 40. One works in the Trump administration, one's a state senator. The 41 year old vice president has brushed this all off as what kids do. You're one of the most prominent Jewish politicians in the country. What's your message to the vice president?

[Commercial Narrator 2]

Well, he's become such a sycophant for this president that he's unwilling to condemn these kinds of remarks. Remember, this is the man who just a few years ago, before he got chosen US Senator, Republican US Senator before he got chosen for vice president, just a few years ago ago, this is someone who called Donald Trump America's Hitler. That's a long way to go. When he's now backing up the idea that people who are clearly speaking like Nazis in their texts, young Republicans, he's unwilling to say anything about that. It strikes me as, I mean, it's not just that he's, you know, doing Donald Trump's biggest bidding, it's that, you know, he's just become a lackey for this authoritarian endeavor of turning this country into something other than a constitutional republic. So I think it's dangerous. I mean, he's demonstrating the danger and it's clear that every level of this administration is corrupt and that's what he's demonstrating.

[Jen Psaki]

Governor J.B. pritzker, thank you for joining me on a very busy day. I really appreciate that the time.

[Commercial Narrator 2]

Thank you, Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

Coming up, an update on a project we've been working very hard on over here. We'll be right back. A very quick reminder before we go. The first two episodes of my podcast, the Blueprint, are out now. Wherever you get your podcasts, that does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Bluesky, Instagram and TikTok.

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