Pritzker on bowing to Trump intimidation: The consequences of not standing up are worse

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Pritzker on bowing to Trump intimidation: The consequences of not standing up are worse”

The Briefing with Jen Psaki, MSNBC | September 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Briefing with Jen Psaki tackles a seismic moment in U.S. media and democracy: the sudden suspension of Jimmy Kimmel’s late-night show by ABC after apparent political pressure from President Trump’s FCC. Through in-depth analysis and interviews with prominent guests—including Preet Bharara (former U.S. Attorney), Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker, and Congressman Dan Goldman—the episode examines the chilling effect of Trump-era government intimidation, the consequences for free speech and press freedom, and the broader pattern of threats against dissent in America’s institutions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jimmy Kimmel’s Suspension: Not Just a “Media Story”

• Context & Precedent:
  • ABC pulls Jimmy Kimmel Live indefinitely after FCC Chair Brendan Carr (appointed by Trump) publicly criticizes Kimmel’s monologue and singles him out.
  • Similar pattern seen two months prior when CBS abruptly canceled Stephen Colbert’s show amidst a corporate settlement with Trump and an FCC-tied merger.
    [03:07] Jen Psaki: “The move came just after CBS’s parent company, Paramount, settled a lawsuit with President Trump…That settlement and Colbert’s firing were widely seen as Paramount trying to win favor with Trump’s FCC…”
• Obedience in Advance:
  [04:59] Jen Psaki: “It’s not just about the news today...Both of those cancellations appear to be corporations not being forced by Trump to do something, but corporations obeying Trump in advance.”

2. Direct Political Influence & FCC Threats

• Threatening Language:
  • FCC Chair Carr characterizes Kimmel’s comments as “some of the sickest conduct possible,” directly threatens action against ABC.
    [06:55] Brendan Carr via Jen Psaki: “These companies can find ways to change conduct…or there’s going to be additional work for the FCC ahead...a very reasonable, minimal step can be taken…”
• Use of Regulatory Power:
  • Networks and their affiliates rely on FCC broadcast licenses, making them vulnerable to regulatory threats.
  • Pressure extended through affiliate networks (Nextstar Media pulls Kimmel), contributing to ABC’s final decision.

3. Legal Analysis: Private Decisions under Public Pressure

• Lines Between Private & State Action:
  • Preet Bharara distinguishes between business decisions and compliance under government threat. [09:30] Preet Bharara: “There’s a thing that we need to distinguish when people start talking about the First Amendment… very different from a situation in which people are responding to or reacting to government threat or government pressure...”
  • Trump and his FCC are not just passive observers; they actively celebrate and encourage these outcomes, eroding democratic principles.
• Hope for Institutional Courage:
  [11:06] Preet Bharara: “If you expect courage at every juncture where courage is warranted, you’re going to be disappointed. But it’s something to be hoped for…”

4. Broader Pattern of Intimidation in Media and Beyond

• Media, Law Firms, Universities:
  • Trump administration uses power to intimidate not just the media, but law firms, universities, and individuals.
• Systematic Effort to Silence Critics:
  [15:30] Preet Bharara: “…there almost seems to be a systematic effort by Donald Trump and the people around him...to silence and/or punish or intimidate anybody who’s a critic…”

5. Governor Pritzker’s Response: The Necessity of Speaking Up

• Condemnation of Intimidation:
  [19:07] Gov. Pritzker: “It’s intimidation, clearly. And this is what we’re seeing across the board from the Trump administration…Here we have a comedian… and now we’ve got the Trump administration literally targeting individuals.”
• Urgency of Action:
  • Pritzker calls on citizens and officials to push ABC/Disney to reverse their decision through protest, letters, and boycott. [21:57] Gov. Pritzker: “If people will write letters, write emails, post online, speak up, protest, that’s what I’m calling for…”
• Consequences of Compliance vs. Resistance:
  [23:40] Gov. Pritzker: “There are gonna be consequences to pushing back…The consequences of not standing up, though, are much, much worse.”

6. Pattern of Authoritarian Behavior

• Pritzker’s Warning:
  • For those hoping to avoid repercussions by staying quiet: appeasement doesn’t work and emboldens further abuse. [26:09] Gov. Pritzker: “Authoritarians want control…every time they get someone to act in a pleasing fashion, they make one step toward control and they will silence that group, move on to the next one...This is the playbook.”
• Democratic Erosion via Media Control:
  • Media and free expression are being systematically narrowed; the distinction between comedians and journalists is collapsing.

7. Congressional & Societal Response — Congressman Dan Goldman

• Coordinated Intimidation across Sectors:
  [31:07] Dan Goldman: “He’s trying to silence any media that would be a form of accountability...He’s using every lever that he has to stifle dissent, but I think more importantly to eliminate any form of accountability…It’s did I please you, dear leader? And the combination of the two is how democracy falls.”
• Role of Business & the Public:
  • Disappointment in corporate America's failure to stand up for First Amendment rights, especially Disney/ABC. [33:21] Dan Goldman: “If you are a media company, who else is going to stand up for the First Amendment and the freedom of the press than the media itself?...I’m very disappointed in Disney.”
  • Urges civic action, boycotts, and legal challenges as vital countermeasures.

8. Public Health and Scientific Integrity (CDC Segment)

• Political Pressure on Science:
  • Recent ousting of CDC leaders—Dr. Susan Minarez and Dr. Deborah Howery—over refusal to pre-approve Kennedy's vaccine panel recommendations, as well as broader threats against public health agencies. [41:39] Jen Psaki: “Dr. Minarez also told the committee that RFK said he talks to Trump every day about the childhood vaccine schedule. That is also not normal in any way.” [43:12] Dr. Howery: “If our scientists aren’t able to speak publicly about data, vaccines, outbreaks because they’re worried about their personal safety, we’re in a lot of trouble.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On FCC Threat:
  “[The FCC] can find ways to change conduct...or there’s going to be additional work for the FCC ahead.”
  – FCC Chair Brendan Carr, paraphrased by Jen Psaki [06:55]

• Defending Free Speech:
  “A free and democratic society cannot silence comedians because the President doesn’t like what they say. This is an attack on free speech and cannot be allowed to stand.”
  – Gov. J.B. Pritzker [18:04]

• On the Cost of Silence:
  “The consequences of not standing up, though, are much, much worse. We see it in authoritarian regimes…eventually something happens to them.”
  – Gov. J.B. Pritzker [23:53]

• Authoritarian Playbook:
  “Authoritarians want control. Every time they get someone to act in a pleasing fashion, right, they make one step toward control and they will silence that group, move on to the next one…”
  – Gov. J.B. Pritzker [26:09]

• On Corporate Responsibility:
  “If you are a media company, who else is going to stand up for the First Amendment and the freedom of the press than the media itself?”
  – Rep. Dan Goldman [33:21]

• Legal Encouragement:
  “Should Jimmy Kimmel…sue them? Absolutely.”
  – Rep. Dan Goldman [35:43]

• Science and Integrity:
  “If our scientists aren’t able to speak publicly about data, vaccines, outbreaks because they’re worried about personal safety, we’re in a lot of trouble.”
  – Dr. Deborah Howery [43:12]

• On Civic Duty:
  “The most important office in democracy is the office of citizen…”
  – Closing words, paraphrased from President Obama [44:33]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Main Theme & Kimmel’s Suspension Announced: [00:52]–[04:16]
• Colbert Precedent, Mergers, and Trump Leverage: [03:07]–[06:55]
• FCC Threat/Legal Perspective (Preet Bharara): [06:55]–[16:34]
• Governor Pritzker on Government Intimidation: [18:04]–[28:40]
• Congressman Dan Goldman on Media, Law, Accountability: [30:04]–[36:44]
• Science and CDC Political Pressure (Dr. Howery): [39:28]–[44:21]
• Closing/Civic Engagement Message: [44:33]–[45:30]

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Tone & Takeaway

The episode is urgent and sharply critical, with guests and hosts warning of an escalating erosion of American democratic norms. The tone is a blend of alarm, defiance, and pragmatic hope—emphasizing both the dangers at hand and the necessity for public, legal, and institutional resistance.

Central Message:
Silence and compliance only breed further loss of freedom; speaking up and standing together—to defend free speech, science, and truth—is an existential imperative for American democracy.

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This episode provides a comprehensive, real-time portrait of the mounting crisis around free expression in the Trump era, the interplay between corporate interest and public service, and the vital role of citizen action.

Transcript

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[Josh]

That is all in on this Wednesday night. It was a doozy today. The briefing with Jen Psaki starts right now. Good evening, Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, Chris, I know you probably had a different show planned tonight. I had a different show plan. You talked about the cdc. We're definitely going to talk about that. Lots of people care about that. I care about that. You care about that. But the news about Jimmy Kimmel I think is a pretty watershed moment. I think we all need to be talking about. We actually. And it's not just a media story. I know you agree with me on this. It's not just a media story. It's a democracy story. It's a freedom of speech story. It's so many things. And I've been thinking a lot today about how I lived through years of answering questions from a lot of these network journalists, people who ask tough questions sometimes. I was pissed off at them. That's part of what we do. And this is threatening that. So it's a warrant on that we actually heard from. And this happens to you all the time, too. I know. We heard from Governor Pritzker who happens to be in town tonight. So he has some thoughts on this. He's going to come join us on set shortly. It tells you a lot about how this isn't just a media story. It's much bigger.

[Josh]

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely not just a media story. Can you criticize the leader of the.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

Country without state sanction?

[Josh]

That's a pretty essential question.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

I'm going to keep doing it.

[Jen Psaki]

But ask the Kremlin run media that's following Putin around and they will tell you no. So there's that, Chris, it's a doozy. I'll see you tomorrow.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

All right?

[Jen Psaki]

Okay. As I was just referencing there, we've changed up our show a bit in the last hour or so. And we're starting tonight with, of course, the late breaking news that ABC has just announced that they are pulling late night host Jimmy Kimmel's show off the air indefinitely. And I know you've probably been watching this news, you've been following this news. And it's not just about the news today, as I was just discussing with Chris. First of all, if this is giving you deja vu, if you feel like you have heard this story before, you have. We've been here before recently. It's because we have.

[Josh]

I want to let you know something that I found out just last night. Next year will be our last season. The network will be ending the Late show in May. And.

[Jen Psaki]

That was CBS's late show host, Stephen Colbert. You are all familiar. I'm very familiar. We probably all watch him. The network, of course, suddenly and shockingly ended Colbert's top rated show just two months ago tonight, exactly two months ago. And the network claimed that the cancellation was purely a financial decision, not related in any way to the show's performance, content or other matters happening at Paramount. That's what they said. But the move came just after CBS's parent company, Paramount settled a lawsuit with President Trump paying Trump $16 million over a 60 Minutes interview with Trump's presidential campaign opponent, Kamala Harris, which Trump claimed had been deceptively edited even though most lawyers believed Trump's case was baseless and he would lose in court. Now, that settlement and Colbert's firing were widely seen as Paramount trying to win favor with Trump's FCC because they needed the FCC to approve their merger with the media company Skydance. That happened just a couple days after that, too. The timing was quite something. Now, here's how Colbert himself described the $60 million, 60 minute settlement at the time.

[Josh]

Now, I believe this kind of complicated financial settlement with a sitting government official has a technical name in legal circles. It's big fat bribe. Because this all comes as Paramount's owners are trying to get the Trump administration to approve the sale of our network to a new Skydance. Not the music I was expecting. Okay, that was me dancing in the sky. And some of the TV typers out there are blogging that once Skydance gets cbs, the new owner's desire to please Trump could put pressure on late night host and frequent Trump critic Stephen Colbert.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, they literally spell it out. Is the thing that's so wild here. That, of course, was just days before Colbert's show itself was canceled. And as I already referenced, the timeline is crazy. And that was just one week later. After that, Trump's FCC approved the Paramount Skydance merger. Now, I think we have been here before. The reason I am tying Colbert's show getting canceled to Kimmel's show getting taken off the air indefinitely is not just because they are both late night comedy hosts. It's because both of those cancellations appear to be corporations not being forced by Trump to do something, but corporations obeying Trump in advance. After Colbert was fired, Trump told reporters that Kimmel would be next. He said, quote, kimmel is no talent. They're next. Literally, again, as I said, he spells it out. They spell it out. Colbert and Kimmel clearly both got under Trump's skin. They both made fun of him all the time. I mean, nearly every night. But that is supposed to be part of what being an American is all about. You are supposed to be able to make fun of the President. You are supposed to be able to hold the President to account. You're supposed to be able to make jokes if you're a late night comedian about the sitting president. And he certainly gives a lot of fodder for it. But clearly Trump doesn't see things that way. We know that he's openly called for both of them to lose their jobs. In Colbert's case, Trump had leverage over CBS and Paramount because they wanted his FCC to approve their merger with Skydance. In Kimmel's case, it appears the FCC may have been central here once again. In his monologue on Monday night, Kimmel incorrectly suggested that Charlie Kirk's assassin was part of the MAGA movement. That was an incorrect part of the monologue. The right then jumped on that mischaracterization. And today, just hours before Kimmel's show was canceled, Trump's FCC chair, Brendan Carr used that mischaracterization to push for Kimmel to be fired out loud.

[Josh]

You know, when you look at the conduct that has taken place by Jimmy Kimmel, it appears to be some of the sickest conduct possible. Frankly, when you see stuff like this, I mean, look, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to change conduct to take action, frankly, on Kimmel, or there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead. A very reasonable, minimal step that can be taken. I mean, obviously there's calls for Kimmel be fired. I think you could certainly see a path forward for suspension over this. And again, the FCC is going to have remedies that we could look at.

[Jen Psaki]

Sounds pretty clearly threatening to me. Now, Carr went on to explain two things. The first was that broadcast networks are not like normal citizens. When they communicate, they rely on broadcast licenses, which he and the FCC control. The second thing he explained was that the FCC could also find networks for things they deem to not be in the public interest, as they define it, I suppose, and not just big networks like CBS or abc, but affiliate networks that carry the shows those networks produce, which is what all of these networks rely on the affiliates to take them. Now, tonight, one of the biggest owners of affiliate stations like that in the country, a company called nexstar Media, announced that they will preempt Jimmy Kimmel's show for the foreseeable future, beginning with tonight's show. That means they will no longer air Kimmel's show. And that appears to be what has led to ABC itself pulling Kimmel's show. When media reporter Brian Stelter asked Trump's FCC chair, Brendan Carr for comments on how ABC pulled Kimmel's show just hours after he not so subtly threatened the network and its affiliates, not subtle at all. Carr responded with this GIF from the office showing Michael Scott and Dwight Schrude raising the roof. Clearly, he got what he wanted. Clearly. And that's how he replied. Okay. Joining me now is Preet Bharara, former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York. Preet, thank you for being here with us tonight. There's so many things always to discuss with you, and this news just broke in the last couple of hours. I mean, it raises all kinds of questions, a lot of them I just raised. You are a keen observer of this administration, is one way to put it. You are also a lawyer and a prosecutor by trade. I wanted to ask about you, about something that Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer said tonight. He said tonight that this must go to court. What does that look like at this point?

[Preet Bharara]

Well, it doesn't look like it's going to go to court because a private institution, a private company, decided to take a particular course and suspend Jimmy Kimmel indefinitely. Like there's a thing that we need to distinguish when people start talking about the First Amendment. It's one thing if someone, a host of a television show could be you, wouldn't be you, I wouldn't think says something so outrageous or off putting to the brand of the network or to the show or to the audience that as a business decision because of a reaction to market forces, a private company decides we're going to remove that show, we're going to limit the show or we're going to indefinitely suspend someone from being on the show. That's very different from whether from a situation in which people are responding to or reacting to government threat or government pressure, whether it's direct or indirect. And as you pointed out in the introduction to the show, you have an FCC chair who very, very deliberately on the air, on his own airwaves, on a podcast, made clear that there would be consequences for that network. Not only do you have an administration official who has jurisdiction over that kind of a network saying the things that he said, then when the deed was accomplished, you have the president of the United States, the sitting president of the United States, celebrating the action by that person. So, you know, there are people who I've seen on television all evening decrying the moves by corporations in bending the knee. I've lived long enough to understand that courage is not a thing to be expected. If you expect courage at every juncture where courage is warranted, you're going to be disappointed. But it's something to be hoped for. And what I hope is the case not just in this context with respect to the media, but also with all sorts of other companies and law firms and individuals and individual politicians who want to hold onto their jobs, that they care a little bit more about the principles of democracy. That includes the First Amendment, that includes due process. That includes a lot of other things, that they exhibit some courage rather than going along with the flow and bend the knee.

[Jen Psaki]

I think that is advice. I hope everybody watching and majority of the country I would hope agrees with. There is, I mean, to your point, there has been this is not the first bending the knee trend we've seen. I mean, the media is one industry, but there's also law firms and others. What we've seen also happen is that Trump and the administration doesn't then just stop. I mean, they continue even after there's been agreements made with universities or made with law firms, they go and ask for more. If you were even from the legal standpoint, if you were giving advice to some of these companies who are agreeing to settlements in advance, who are putting people on indefinite lead because of warnings from or threats from the FCC chair, what would you tell them they should do to morally, sure. But also legally.

[Preet Bharara]

They should. Look, the funny thing about some of these situations is that there are times when legal cases are close. There are close questions with respect to some of these media issues. I'm not a First Amendment expert, but I understand the First Amendment. I went to law school, and I've practiced law for a long time. They're not close questions. People are making business decisions because it happens to be the case that a political administration has all sorts of authority and power to imperil your business. I was having a discussion on my podcast last week with an MIT economics professor who won the Nobel Prize in economics last year, and we were discussing how even though we are purportedly a democracy and a free market democracy, that it happens to be the case that if a president of the United States or his cabinet officials decide to take action to the utmost extreme of their power, they can literally cripple not just whole industries, but particular companies within those industries. Right. President Trump doesn't like what a company. Did I slap a tariff on you? President Trump doesn't like someone that a law firm employs. I'm not going to let you enter federal buildings. President Trump decides, you're the daughter of the former FBI director who I despise, Jim Comey, I'm going to fire you because Article two, I say, lets me do that. So it happens again and again and again. And in a lot of those cases, the legal cases wouldn't be close. The people who are at the wrong end of the stick on those things would be victorious, which is why I would hope and expect, not expect, sorry, hope that they would be a little bit more courageous in fighting the legal battles because the law is on their side.

[Jen Psaki]

In both of these cases. I mean, I mentioned this in my opening, but I wasn't giving legal analysis. I was just observing, connecting things, shall we say? They were both mergers, kind of pending mergers. There were business components of this, I should say. What questions would you. Do you have about how that went down and the timeline of some of these mergers and these actions that seem to be, again, obeying in advance the desires of the FCC chair and the Trump administration?

[Preet Bharara]

Well, you know, you could have questions as a lawyer if someone was going to object. Jimmy Kimmel might want to file a lawsuit. I heard, I think it was Jamie Raskin earlier on television saying that he hopes that Jimmy Kimmel sues, and maybe it wasn't him. But as from a citizen's perspective, I think you want to understand what the thinking was. I think you want to understand what the legal analysis was. I think you want to understand why the administration is singling out certain parties for threat and for intimidation and not others. You know, Jimmy Kimmel made these remarks. I don't endorse them. You pointed out that there was a mistake in them. They may have offended some people, free speech is supposed to be for speech that both offends and also, you know, does not offend. But there was a host on FOX News this past week who I believe suggested that there should be euthanasia for homeless people and he apologized. To his credit, no one's Brendan Carr, the FCC chairman is not talking about punishing that person. People say things that are errant. Companies should be. Yeah, it happens all the time. But you have to view this in the context of all the other things that are going on, you know, essentially both in the media and otherwise. There almost seems to be a systematic effort by Donald Trump and the people around him, but specifically by Donald Trump to silence and or punish or intimidate anybody who's a critic, whether it's a stand up comedian tonight, the former FBI director, you know, assistant US attorneys, FBI agents who happen to have investigated January 6th because they were assigned to that task. It doesn't matter. One by one by one, they're all being targeted using the full force of the administration's power and that should be fought against.

[Jen Psaki]

Preet Bharara, thank you for always giving us a legal and also a moral lesson. I really appreciate you joining me and talking a topic that really the news again just broke. Thank you again. Okay. Governor JB Pritzker references earlier in talking to Chris, but he had some very strong words tonight about ABC pulling Jimmy Kimmel off the air. He's going to join me to talk about all of it in just 90 seconds.

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[Josh]

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[Jen Psaki]

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[Jen Psaki]

So this is the story about Jimmy Kimmel is, is definitely not just a media story. It's much bigger than that. And that's one of the reasons I think Democratic leaders country are speaking out against ABC for indefinitely pausing late night show Jimmy Kimmel live after facing pressure from Donald Trump's fcc. We're going to talk about a lot of this with Democratic Governor David Pritzker of Illinois. Here's what he said earlier today, earlier this evening, I should say, since this has broken last couple hours. A free and democratic society cannot silence comedians because the President doesn't like what they say. This is an attack on free speech and cannot be allowed to stand. All elected officials need to speak up and push back on this undemocratic. Joining me now is Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker. This is, as I just said, this is much bigger than a media story. It feels to me, first of all, Brendan Carr went out today, the FCC chair and basically warned, called out Jimmy Kimmel by name. And then a couple of hours later, he was put on indefinite hiatus, suspension, whatever you want to call it. Does this feel, it feels to me like obedience in advance. Does it feel to you like that?

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

It's intimidation, clearly. And this is what we're seeing across the board from the Trump administration. They're using the power of the government to go after businesses, to get them to do things that they need or want. Right. Either to pay them, as we have seen, or to fire people, as we have seen. And here we have a comedian. I mean, this is somebody who's on every night, frankly, probably offending somebody every single night.

[Jen Psaki]

He may have made fun of you before.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

Indeed he has. And so I just want to say that, you know, we should not be going after people for this. Look, did he get some things wrong? Yeah. I mean, but he is not a commentator, a news anchor. This is somebody who's a comedian, for goodness sakes. And now we've got the Trump administration literally targeting individuals. You saw it with Stephen Colbert, now you're seeing it with Kimmel. Anybody that's criticizing this administration, they're using the power of government to intimidate companies.

[Jen Psaki]

To fire people, you said, and you never hold back. And it's one of the things I always love to talk to you about. You said that politicians, people should be speaking up. This is an undemocratic act. People are just digesting this. It's a part of a pattern. What does that look like? What is the kind of pressure you think politicians or people watching right now could put on ABC or Disney or others about this?

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

Well, first everybody should be saying that ABC should reverse their decision. This is not something they should have been doing. I don't think that abc, at least historically, is not been an organization that has exhibited this kind of behavior. But you know, now we're seeing the pressure that can be brought by the federal government. You can imagine the pressure that's on Disney and ABC and on their business based upon, well, what's been said so far today. And so I must say I do not understand why people are not standing up and pushing back when they ought to. Because what's at stake here is free speech. It's our Constitution and, and our way of life. Do we really want the President of the United States intimidating people, organizations to get others fired? This is not that moment. This is people ought to be standing up and speaking out. What can they do? Well, it's what I've been saying for some time now, which is if we want to get action, we now can't rely upon a MAGA controlled Congress. We can't rely on the President of the United States, seemingly, although we'll see whether we can rely on the Supreme Court of the United States, increasingly it doesn't appear that way. And so we only have one other thing to do, which is public action. People actually speaking up, speaking out, boycotting, showing up and protesting and their representatives who agree with them doing the very same.

[Jen Psaki]

What should people be boycotting right now? This is bigger than just today's story. But what does that look like?

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

It is. But I think if we can work on ABC to make them understand how wrong the decision is. In other words, if people will write letters, write emails, post online, speak up, protest, that's what I'm calling for. I think that it may be that ABC and Disney see that they may have made a mistake and they would reverse that decision. By the way, if they do that, you can see what happens when organizations and people stand up and push back. You can actually accomplish something. You can move the ball. I've seen that for the state of Illinois, we've seen that for the universities where there are boards that are willing to step up and speak out and push back. It's going to be a hard three plus years under Donald Trump. But I believe that there is momentum that can be gained by doing things like this. And the elections are coming up in November of 2026. And if in November 2026 the public will show up at the ballot box and in the meantime speak up with their megaphones and their microphones that That I believe we can at least stop this intrusion on the Constitution, this kind of un American behavior by the president for his last two years in office.

[Jen Psaki]

There are a lot of people in boardrooms. You've been in many boardrooms. You've been, you know, in college, university boardrooms, in governors offices who were having strategy sessions about what to do in this moment. Right. In media companies, too. Do we push back? Do we make agreements? What should we do? You have decided to push back. That has worked in many ways in Illinois. How has it worked? What lessons have you learned? And what are the consequences of not pushing back? How have you thought about that?

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

Yeah, I think that people need to recognize that there are gonna be consequences to pushing back. There just are. There's no way that, you know, and you've seen Donald Trump sort of going back and forth about whether he's sending troops to Chicago or not.

[Jen Psaki]

Right, right.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

And he threatens all kinds of things. And now he's sent ICE in to cause mayhem on the ground and in Chicago right now because he's hoping that the challenge that will be brought to ICE and has been brought by protesters will cause the kind of reaction that will demand that he bring in some troops. So there are consequences, there's no doubt, to standing up. The consequences of not standing up, though, are much, much worse. We see it in authoritarian regimes when things just happen. You know, there's a whole cadre of people who just step back, sit back. They're bystanders. They don't do anything about it because they're hoping if they duck and keep their head low, nothing will happen to them. Well, eventually something happens to them. We just saw JD Vance go and talk about maybe sending troops into Detroit. This is after the governor of Michigan has been working with the administration, trying to get things done for her state by, you know, sitting down with the president and figuring out what they could do together. And now this is how she's paid back. You can see that it does not matter. Making a deal with this administration leads simply to them getting in the near term what they want, which is capitulation. And in the long term, they're going to abrogate that deal. You've seen it Donald Trump's entire life. He breaks contracts. He did it in business over and over and over again. He would sue people when he knew that he was going to get sued in order to stop the action against him or prevent people from being able to afford to actually bring that lawsuit. Now he's President of the United States. He's got a Lot more power at his fingertips. That pushback that he offers is hard, but we are fighting for our democracy now. And that is why people need to stand up and speak out.

[Jen Psaki]

It's interesting you brought up the governor of Michigan. There are others who have decided in Congress too, that they need to kind of lay low, they need to make deals. There's questions about keeping the government open or not keeping the government open. It sounds like what you're saying is that's just not going to work. Appeasing is not going to work. And that's a lesson to other states where Trump may want to send national Guard or send ice or play nice, but then still has plans to come after you.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

Authoritarians want control. And every time they get someone to act in a pleasing fashion, right, they make one step toward control and they will silence that group, move on to the next one. And this is actually, it's the playbook. You know, read on tyranny, read so many books about how authoritarian regimes come about. That is what Donald Trump's trying to effectuate here. And we're seeing it with regard to the media now, silencing people who are opponents, political opponents of his administration. I mean, I mean, when that happens, well, what's left actually, if no one can speak out because they're too afraid or because they have been fired and silenced, what's left? We really don't have a democracy.

[Jen Psaki]

This is suchi mean, you have been, you've had tough stories written about you, you've had tough broadcasts. Everybody who's a prominent governor has had this right. You've answered tough questions. You've never called for media to be eliminated or to go away just because they're asking you tough questions. This is such an important part of our democr. Experienced this in a different way myself. Do you worry seeing the news today and seeing what happened with Colbert? They are late night comedy hosts, but it's a very close bridge to news broadcasters and others that the ability to tell truth, to speak truth, to power on broadcast media is becoming, is not going to survive through this.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

That's right. And so again, when you don't have independent news media left, and look what they did with the White House correspondents, right, they essentially silenced or pushed back all of the kind of objective media. And now they've only got the right wing bloggers and those who are friends of the administration sitting in the front, they're only calling on those people, mostly only calling on those people. And that's the kind of administration that we're seeing this is the future of the country if we do not step up and speak out. That is my concern. And I've seen this over and over again. Look, I built a Holocaust museum with survivors. I've also read a whole lot about authoritarian regimes. This is the playbook, folks. If you're not paying attention now and doing something about it, well, then you're going to have to sit down the rest of your life because democracy is being taken away.

[Jen Psaki]

Do not be quiet in this moment. That is what I consistently hear from you. I believe it. I echo it. I confirm it myself. Thank you for being here tonight. This is a very last minute. We're so delighted that you were able to make it. Thank you, Governor Pritzker.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

Thanks, Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay, we're going to take a quick break. Coming up, Congressman Dan Goldman joins me. I'll get his take on the breaking news and how Congress can push back. Stay with us.

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[Jen Psaki]

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[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

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[Jen Psaki]

Try Monday Sidekick AI you'll love to use on Monday.com. we are continuing to follow the breaking news tonight. ABC pulling Jimmy Kimmel show off the air after facing pressure from Donald Trump's fcc. Joining me now is Congressman Dan Goldman, Democrat of New York and member of the House. House Judiciary Committee. So this is, we were just talking about this. This is a part of a larger trend as I think everybody watching has been following closely. It is basically trying to silence and pressure anyone who's a critic. It applies to media companies, it applies to law firms, it applies to universities, it applies even in thein law enforcement to the FBI. Talk about the trends of this and what people should understand about how all the pieces fit together.

[Josh]

Right? And they do fit together. And that's important to understand. These are not one off. I mean, you can look at the media, you look at Colbert, you look at Kimmel, you look at George Stephanopoulos, you look at 60 Minutes, you look at these lawsuits against the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times. He's trying to silence any media. That would be a form of accountability, of objective, factual accountability. You talked about the law firms, right. And trying not to let them practice because of some association that they have that he doesn't like universities, he doesn't like some of their policies or some of the things they're teaching. The scary one that I pay a lot of attention to is the use of the criminal justice system to silence his dissenters. The worst or most severe example of that was an actual executive order or two that he issued for the Department of Justice to investigate Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor to former Trump officials who ultimately came out against him. Similar to John Bolton, he's also going after Democrats who have tried to hold him accountable. He's using every lever that he has to stifle dissent, but I think more importantly to eliminate any form of accountability. And he is now creating a whole dynamic where people are afraid and so they don't want to cross him. And then you see the flip side, which is Mark Zuckerberg going with Donald Trump and asking him on a hot mic after did I say the right number? That we're going to invest in America, not in American manufacturing, Not this is what it is. It's did I please you, dear leader? And the combination of the two is how democracy falls.

[Jen Psaki]

The media side of this is suchthis is also how democracies fall. When media is silenced, when media becomes a state run apparatus or operation. We see that in Russia, China, Poland. Talk about that piece of this. And these media companies and how they should be thinking about this. They're making business decisions, but they're also a part of the public interest.

[Josh]

And the problem is that they are corporations focused more in many ways on their bottom line. That's also why Donald Trump defunded Public broadcasting and literally eliminated all government funding for PBS and npr, the independent, objective news source. So Disney owns abc, but also owns many other things and is a company that is worried about its bottom line. Nextstar has a merger pending. And so part of the problem is the confluence of media and business. But if you are a media company, who else is going to stand up for the First Amendment and the freedom of the press than the media itself? And I was disappointed early on when the AP got booted out of the White House of the press briefing room because they wouldn't change the name of the Gulf of Mexico to Gulf of America. That should have led to every single media outlet joining together and unifying, not because they care about the ap, but because they care about the First Amendment. I wish law firms had done the same. Because once he's able to pick you apart, and I think the governor said this, well, once he's able to pick off one or two here, well then the unity that provides the power in whatever group it is is gone. And he will just push and push. I'm very disappointed in Disney. Very, very disappointed. This is obvious, obvious First Amendment violation. I mean, there's no question about it. There is nothing Jimmy Kimmel said, frankly, that's even objectionable. He doesn't accuse the guy of being maga. And even if he did, that would be okay. Because let's remember Donald Trump, Trump said the night of the Charlie Kirk murder that it was done by a left wing radical when the guy hadn't been identified or arrested. What's the difference? But the difference, the difference is that one thing Donald Trump likes and the other thing Donald Trump doesn't like. And if our Constitution depends on whether or not the President of the United States likes it or not, then we may as well not have a constitution.

[Jen Psaki]

Should Jimmy Kimmel, I mean, he hasn't been fired that we know of. Should he sue them?

[Josh]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And look, there are other actions that the American people can also engage in. And that happened a lot more. I mean, corporations led the resistance against Donald Trump's assault on our democracy in the first term. And that really stifled him. There was a lot of unity, there was a lot of objection. There were boycotts. There were other things where the people rose up and said, we don't like this and we're not going to do it this time around. Nobody is really leading that charge in corporate America, but the American people still have the power, not only at the ballot box, but also in terms of what companies they're going to consume what things they're going to buy, who they're going to sell support. Right. We are a free market economy and they may be making this decision for what they think is in their best interests. But people who care about the First Amendment can make them change their mind going the opposite way.

[Jen Psaki]

Congressman Dan Goldman, you have digested a lot of this in the last couple of hours. I really appreciate you being here. Thank you.

[Josh]

Thanks so much, Josh.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay, we're going to take a quick break. We heard stunning, a lot happened today. I mean, we, we heard stunning testimony from former CDC officials today about all the ways in which RFK Jr. Is putting the nation's health at risk. One of them is going to join me here on set. She's had a long day. She's still here with us. We'll be right back. In the craziness of today, the Senate also heard testimony from the former director for the Centers for Disease Control who was fired by Trump just last month. CDC Director Susan Minares says she was forced out of the job after she refused to pre approve the vaccine recommendations of RFK Jr. S hand picked panel of vaccine skeptics without regard to any science. Today, some of the same Republican senators who voted to confirm her just weeks ago tried to turn her into some kind of villain and it did not go well.

[Josh]

The burden should be on you. You want to make all the kids take this. The burden is upon you and the.

[Jen Psaki]

People you wouldn't fire to prove to.

[Josh]

Us that we need to give our.

[Jen Psaki]

6 month old a COVID vaccine and that we need to give our one.

[Josh]

Day old a Hepatitis B vaccine. That's what the debate ought to be.

[Jen Psaki]

About, not whether all vaccines are good.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

Or whether we live in Alice in the Wonderland.

[Jen Psaki]

I actually agree with you and I was open to the science. I just would not pre commit to approving all the ACIP recommendations without the science. Untrue. I love how she has a look on her face like she knows what she's going to say as he's winding himself up there and getting all into a lather. So Rand Paul says the burden should be on her and the CDC to explain why kids need vaccines. And the former CDC director says, yes, I agree with you. That is what scientists are supposed to do, defend their conclusions against rigorous questioning. It was like that over and over again. Frankly, it's amazing that this hearing happened at all given that Republicans control the Senate. So this hearing was called by Republican Health Committee chair Senator Bill Cassidy. Now remember, Senator Cassidy was initially on the fence about confirming RFK Jr. Initially, he eventually voted for his confirmation only after, he says, Secretary Kennedy promised not to make changes to the CDC's vaccine advisory committee, which is exactly what Secretary Kennedy then did. The reason all of that was so important to Senator Cassidy is because he himself is a doctor who has staked his reputation as a medical professional on an obviously bogus promise from RFK Jr. But that is kind of the theme for Republicans here. They got themselves into this mess. There's no political gain in any of this beyond appeasing Donald Trump. But there are very, very real costs.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

What keeps you up at night? What keeps you both up at night?

[Jen Psaki]

Very concisely, the next outbreak. And I don't believe that we'll be prepared.

[Dr. Deborah Howery]

I'm concerned about the future of CDC and public health in our country given what I have seen. If we continue down this path, we are not prepared, not just for pandemics, but for preventing chronic health disease. And we're going to see kids dying of vaccine preventable diseases.

[Jen Psaki]

That last speaker you heard from there and saw was Dr. Deborah Howery, who resigned from the CDC in protest after the director was fired. She joins me here next. Welcome back. Joining us now here at the table is Dr. Deborah Howery, the former CDC chief medical officer who resigned in protest of the firing of former CDC Director Susan Minarez. She was one of the witnesses in today's Senate hearing. You have had the longest day and I am so grateful that you're here. So many people have so many questions about health right now. I just wanted to start. I mean, one of the things I've been trying to do is help people understand what's normal and what's not normal. And today you said a lot of things that struck me. One of the things you said is that you never got to brief Secretary Kennedy in your capacity as the CDC's chief medical officer. That is completely crazy. I can just say. And you never heard back when you offered to do so. Talk about how crazy that is and also what that means. What should people understand about where he was getting his information if he wasn't getting it from the chief medical officer.

[Dr. Deborah Howery]

Yeah. Would love to tell you where he was getting his information from, but we don't know. You know, sometimes we would see different posts from groups he'd been involved in and then we'd get questions that were from that likely. But we don't know who he was getting information from. I can tell you it wasn't myself or my senior leaders. During the measles outbreak, we suggested a briefing might be helpful, particularly when he misstated things like the vaccines, having fetal parts in it or recommending inhaled steroids. Those were things we certainly wanted to correct. And then just regular briefings on flu we thought was important as well. Just any of his priorities. But when we offered it to several of the HHS leaders, they said, great, we'll take it back. But we didn't hear at the same.

[Jen Psaki]

Time, I mean, the hearing, it happened in advance of a two day meeting of a vaccine advisory panel which is expected to make changes in recommendations. Dr. Minara has also told the committee that RFK said he talks to Trump every day about the childhood vaccine schedule. That is also not normal in any way. To say not normal is kind of minimizing it. What should people be concerned about that?

[Dr. Deborah Howery]

So, you know, I think they should be concerned because he hasn't spoken to his vaccine scientist and he's speaking to the president. And what concerns me about the vaccine committee is they're not following the usual process and certainly change is fine. Right. But when you're not looking at how valid the data is, how rigorous it is, and then posting it for public comment and engagement, it really doesn't have that radical transparency that the administration's been talking about. And, and when recommendations come out that haven't truly been vetted like that, and the expertise on this panel is different too, I have concerns.

[Jen Psaki]

One of the things, and we were just talking about this before you came on, I mean people, nobody should forget there was a shooting at the CDC not that long ago this summer. People who are trying to provide public health information that's not partisan in any way, shape or form, that can be challenged, can be questioned, feel under threat and feel like their lives are threatened, you're out here speaking, there are others who are out here speaking. Incredibly courageous to do what? When you talk to some of your former colleagues or employees about either today's hearing or just in general, how are they feeling in this moment?

[Dr. Deborah Howery]

I think a lot of them are feeling very traumatized and the shooting in particular, I think many of the staff were there protecting their kids at the daycare or trying to leave work when shooting happened. And because this was related to Covid misinformation, they feel targeted. You know, and there were 500 bullets that were fired. And when I walked those halls and I saw broken glass and bullets in the wall by my colleagues names, it was devastating. And so for many of them, there's still significant trauma and fear. And if our scientists aren't able to speak publicly about data, vaccines outbreaks because they're worried about their personal safety. We're in a lot of trouble.

[Jen Psaki]

The work you do is so important. I just wanted to thank you really for being here, for being out there and speaking publicly. And as I mentioned, there are so many people out there who don't feel like they have access to the information they need. If you were advising, we only have about 30 seconds left. But people on what they should do should. Is there ever. Should everybody go get a COVID vaccine?

[Dr. Deborah Howery]

You know, I think everybody should stay up to date on their vaccinations and talk with your doctor. That's what I'm telling everybody now is ask your doctor what is best for you.

[Jen Psaki]

That is excellent advice as always. Thank you for being here. So many people rely on expertise like yours. Thank you. We are going to. We'll be right back. Thank you so much.

[Josh]

The most important office in democracy is the office of citizen and our capacity to say, you know what? I believe in free speech. I believe in rule of law. I believe in open debate. I do not believe in violence against people who I disagree with or because they are of another race or they're of another religion. Having those convictions, particularly at a moment where, where we are bombarded constantly with.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

Distractions and.

[Josh]

Diversions, I think is a useful thing. And last thing I guess I'd say.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

Would be be kind.

[Josh]

Kindness is underrated.

[Jen Psaki]

Kindness is underrated. Some good words from my former boss to end on that does it for me tonight. The last word with Lawrence o' Donnell starts right now. Hey, Lawrence.

[Josh]

Thanks, Jen.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

So good to hear those words from President Obama tonight.

[Jen Psaki]

They are important. Reminder, tough times.

[Governor J.B. Pritzker]

Thanks, John.

[Jen Psaki]

Thanks.

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