Nicole Wallace (3:48)

We're going to be sending letters out in about a week and a half, two weeks. I can't tell you that, but I'll.

Rachel Maddow (3:54)

Let you know in about two weeks.

Jimmy Gomez (3:55)

Within two weeks. I could answer that question better in two weeks.

Nicole Wallace (3:58)

I'll do this at some point over.

Rachel Maddow (3:59)

The next two weeks.

Nicole Wallace (4:00)

I'll announce it over the next two weeks.

Jimmy Gomez (4:02)

I'll tell you about that in a month from now or two weeks from now.

Nicole Wallace (4:06)

You trust President Putin, you know, in about two weeks. You can ask that question in two weeks and we'll see out in about.

Jimmy Gomez (4:15)

Less than two weeks we're going to start selling.

Nicole Wallace (4:17)

Hopefully in about two weeks.

Rachel Maddow (4:20)

About two weeks. About two weeks. Maybe it's a tick. Maybe he read a marketing report that says people move on in the media, who knows? But the point is, it's a tactic that Trump has used on almost every issue, from his fake timeline around Russia, Ukraine, peace negotiations to his made up timelines around big trade deals. Where are all those big trade deals? Everyone to his issuing visas for high skilled immigrants. He claims it all is coming in just two weeks. Of course, it never does. And honestly, it's a bit maddening that this tactic can still spark headlines like all of the ones I read earlier, because it's not new. He did the exact same thing throughout his first term in office.

Nicole Wallace (5:05)

We're going to be announcing something, I would say over the next two or.

Rachel Maddow (5:11)

Three weeks, I'll be making a big.

Jimmy Gomez (5:13)

Decision on the Paris accord over the next two weeks. We are coming out with that plan in two weeks. We'll be reporting back sometime over the next two weeks. You'll be seeing that over the next two weeks.

Rachel Maddow (5:26)

Over the next two weeks.

Jimmy Gomez (5:27)

And it doesn't have to be today. It could be tomorrow and it could be in two weeks from now.

Rachel Maddow (5:32)

Could be in two weeks from now, could be in two weeks. Notice the pattern there. It's a big pattern. I could honestly spend half the show just showing you clips of Donald Trump promising to do something in exactly two weeks. You can Google it. There's lots of that he never ended up doing. And we've kind of known about this forever. I mean, this was the headline from Bloomberg less than six months into Trump's first term. Here it is, quote, in Trump's White House, everything's coming in two weeks. So what should we actually take away from Trump's two week deadline on Iran? Because that's what we're talking about and dealing with now. Well, one likely possibility is that Trump doesn't want to have to make a decision about this at all. He just wants to keep punting it down the road. He doesn't mind the speculation, the attention, but he doesn't want to actually commit to a decision. And it's not hard to see why. I mean, over the past week, Trump has been inching closer and closer toward a US Strike in Iran. And while Netanyahu has been delighted by that as one way of describing it, and there have been a number of warmongering advocates appearing around the clock on Fox News advocating for that and pushing it, it has also caused a huge uproar within the isolationist wing of the MAGA base, a big part of his base. I mean, one of maga's loudest voices opposing war with Iran is longtime Trump advisor Steve Bannon. Wouldn't you know it? This morning, Steve Bannon was spotted entering the White House. There he is. A senior White House official said that Bannon and Trump had lunched together, a meeting that was supposed to take place weeks ago but was rescheduled. And maybe that's true, who knows? But we know that Steve Bannon probably said to the president in that meeting what he probably said because he's been saying it publicly all week.

Nicole Wallace (7:17)

And I'm telling people, hey, if we get sucked into this war, which inexorably.

Jimmy Gomez (7:22)

Looks like it's going to happen on the combat side, it's going to not just blow up the coalition, it's also.

Nicole Wallace (7:27)

Going to thwart what we're doing with.

Jimmy Gomez (7:29)

The most important thing, which is the deportation of the illegal alien invaders that are here.

Nicole Wallace (7:34)

If we don't do that, we don't have a country.

Jimmy Gomez (7:38)

Whew.

Rachel Maddow (7:39)

I mean, there are a lot of legitimate reasons not to want war with Iran. May Trump punt it down the road and never strike Iran? Steve Bannon's idea that it would somehow interfere with Trump's mass deportation agenda is, of course, not one of them. But maybe Donald Trump bought that argument because no matter how indifferent or undecided Trump appears today on Iran, he is still 100% committed to upending the lives of immigrants across the country. There's no question about that. And while I know that the very real prospect of war with Iran has pushed this story off the front pages, although we've tried to talk about it nearly every night, people haven't forgotten what's happening in their own communities here at home. I mean, this was the crowd outside Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles this afternoon. Dozens and dozens of people showing up to protest almost immediately after reports that federal immigration agents were attempting to use the parking lot as a state staging ground. The Department of Homeland Security identified the agents present as part of Customs and Border Protection, but said they were not there for an operation. In a statement, the Dodgers said that federal agents had come to the stadium and requested access to the parking lots, but were denied that access by the team. And just the idea, just the idea that there might be ICE agents at Dodger Stadium brought out this many people today in a matter of hours. You can see them on the screen there. That is how angry the residents of Los Angeles are about what is happening in their city right now. And with the city that on edge. A source with knowledge of federal law enforcement operations tells NBC News that Vice President J.D. vance is planning to visit Los Angeles this week. Whose idea was that? Steve Bannon's? Donald Trump's A combo. Who knows? That ought to go well. What a good strategic idea. See, in many ways, the actions by the Trump administration in Los Angeles seem designed to provoke a reaction. And maybe that's the point. I don't say that to judge the people who are reacting. What the Trump administration is doing in LA is so unbelievably cruel, it would be impossible not to react. And in fact, it's encouraging. People are reacting. Today in a Home Depot parking lot in Hollywood, California, we saw what has become an all too familiar scene in the 7am hour this morning. Witnesses say they saw dozens of masked, heavily armed federal agents pull up to Home Depot and arrest day laborers and street vendors. And I'm going to warn you when we show you a lot of videos on the show, but the one I'm about to show you is kind of hard to watch. So if you'd like to look away, I'm going to give you just a second to do that. This is how one witness described the incident to the local TV news station ktla.

Nicole Wallace (10:18)

Several people were running upwards Wilton's place.

Jimmy Gomez (10:23)

I informed them that ICE agents were around the area.

Rachel Maddow (10:28)

They were aware of that. And then that's when an SUV pulled up, came out.

Jimmy Gomez (10:34)

Two agents tackled down a individual with no questions. They placed his face into the dirt.

Rachel Maddow (10:43)

A separate witness told NBC News that she saw these masked agents detain and drive away with what she believes were 20 to 25 people. NBC News has not been able to independently verify that number. We can't even verify that these were federal agents. Federal officials issued only a generic response when asked about this incident, saying that operations like these take place every day. And unfortunately, they're not lying about that. I mean, every day. For weeks now, ICE has been arresting immigrants at an alarming pace. Oftentimes more than 2,000 people a day, some at court hearings, some at routine check ins and some seemingly just profiled and pulled off the street and sent to detention Centers. As of June 1, a week before Trump federalized the National Guard in California, before this latest escalation in immigration raids, ICE was already detaining about 10,000 more people than they had the funding to detain. They are funded to detain 41,500 people. Before this latest escalation in raids, they already had more than 51,000 people detained. And that means that these conditions are not going to work for the number of people they have. And that's why all across the country we have seen allegations of overcrowding, underfeeding and unsanitary conditions at those facilities. Just two weeks ago, detainees at an immigration detention center in Florida were seen spelling out SOS with their bodies. You can see it right there on the screen. NPR reported on allegations of overcrowding, lack of food and rampant untreated illnesses at that facility. Immigration officials deny those claims. A week ago tonight, four detainees escaped a detention center in New Jersey. And local press reports that those four escaped during a riot inside the facility that started after detainees protested what immigrants rights groups said was insufficient food. Immigration officials also deny those claims. A few weeks ago, we brought you the story of 18 year old Marcelo Gomez da Silva, who was detained on his way to soccer practice. There he is on the screen. He he spent six days. He's an 18 year old in an immigration detention facility in Massachusetts, which he described like this.

Jimmy Gomez (12:54)

I don't want to cry, but I want to say that that place, it's not good. It's not good. Ever since I got here, they had me in handcuffs. They put me downstairs and I was in a room with a bunch of.

Nicole Wallace (13:08)

35 year old men.

Jimmy Gomez (13:10)

And those rooms were small compared to the size of how many men were there. There was like 40 men in there. No one deserves to be. You sleep on concrete floors. The bathroom, I have to use the bathroom in the open with like 35, 35 year old men. Like, it's humiliating.

Rachel Maddow (13:31)

He's an 18 year old kid. Just describing that, being in a position to describe that. I should also add that this week the spokesperson for Immigration and Customs Enforcement called Marcelo's description of his detention that you heard him just give bravely blatant lies. Marcelo himself says he stands by his comments. And with disputes over the basic facts about the conditions of detention centers and detention centers already over capacity, which we just know simply by the numbers, and federal agents arresting so many more people every day, the need for oversight is clear. And by law, members of Congress are supposed to be able to access federal immigration detention facilities at any time they want to perform that oversight. But over and over and over again, all across the country, they are getting turned away. Here was the scene in New York yesterday as Congressman Jerry Nadler and Dan Goldman were denied entry to a detention center on the premise that it isn't a detention center, it's just a processing facility where people are allegedly housed for days without beds. They were denied entry. Here was the scene in Chicago yesterday as four members of Congress tried to get access to a detention facility where they had received reports of people sleeping. Sleeping on the floor and going without food. They were also denied entry. They are allowed to get access to these facilities anytime they want. By law, they continue to be denied entry. And take a look at how Congressman Jonathan Jackson and Raja Krisamoorti were treated when they tried to get into the same facility on Wednesday.

Nicole Wallace (15:02)

I am an officer with ice. You're an officer with ice.

Jen Psaki (15:06)

You have an id? Can you see it?

Nicole Wallace (15:08)

I don't have to show that to you.

Jimmy Gomez (15:09)

You don't have to show.

Nicole Wallace (15:10)

I'm telling you to leave.

Rachel Maddow (15:11)

I've already identified myself. I'm an officer.

Jen Psaki (15:14)

Can you send me a badge or an id?

Rachel Maddow (15:16)

You're not allowed to be here. Police are coming.

Nicole Wallace (15:19)

Okay, what are we doing?

Rachel Maddow (15:20)

That's in proper, sir. Let's see they literally shut the window on members of Congress so that they wouldn't have to keep talking to them. In Los Angeles, Representative Jimmy Gomez, who represents most of downtown la, has been repeatedly denied access to a federal building where immigrants from some of LA's recent raids are being held. First, they told him he needed an appointment. He doesn't. Then they told him it was unsafe for him to enter. Not true. And then on Tuesday, they told him this.

Jimmy Gomez (15:51)

They said that my oversight of this facility doesn't apply because this is not a detention facility. Well, it does say Metropolitan Detention center right here in big, bold letters, but they say that this is a processing center.

Rachel Maddow (16:09)

The Department of Homeland Security is playing semantics as one of the things they're doing to try to deny Congress its legal right of oversight over their facilities. Today the Washington Post reported that DHS had issued new guidance this month about congressional oversight visits. Under the new protocol, members of Congress are asked to provide notice of an impending visit to any ICE facility at least 72 hours in advance. They said that Congress's oversight powers only apply to detention centers and not field offices, even if those field offices are where people are being physically detained, which in many cases they are. Obviously, this can't stand. It shouldn't stand. The question is, what can members of Congress do about it? What can anyone do about it? How can they fight back against these detention facilities that appear to be breaking the law? Congressman Jimmy Gomez is standing by and he joins me in just 90 seconds. Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Jimmy Gomez. He represents downtown Los Angeles. Congressman, you have been really on the front lines of trying to get answers about what is happening in your district and all over la. And I want to ask you about that and the conditions at these facilities that we're trying to shine a light on as well. But I just want to start by asking you about some events today that were quite confusing, which is what was happening in the parking lot at Dodger Stadium. What do you know about it? What have officials told you about what happened there?

Jimmy Gomez (17:47)

So early this morning I got a text from my staff saying that ICE was staging right outside the gates of Dodger Stadium. And we also heard reports that ICE was doing raids or federal agents were doing raids in Hollywood. And a lot of the vans that were picking up people in Hollywood were then going back to Dodger Stadium. So when they were saying that they had no. There was no enforcement operation. Well, that's complete nonsense, is bs. And then we were told that they were trying to get in to use the parking lots by my staff and that basically the Dodgers turned them away. But at the same time, I want everyone to know that this, this admin. Lies, lies, lies. Every time you see something, they always try to gaslight you or just say that it didn't happen. That is what I think happened was they were. They were taking people, staging people in near Dodger Stadium, trying to maybe take passengers from one vehicle or detainees and put them in another. And they got trapped by all the protesters at the bottom of the hill. So this is, this is just a pattern of lawlessness when it comes to this administration.

Rachel Maddow (18:58)

There's no question. I mean, the protesters responded. It made it hard. The Dodgers also didn't want them to be there, reportedly, the Dodgers officials. It sounds like what you're saying is that you think it was. It could have been. Or their intention was maybe to make it a bit of a staging ground where they were going to arrest people and bring them back there to move vehicles or transport them to other places.

Jimmy Gomez (19:21)

Correct. So I had a similar situation two weeks ago on a Friday that started in Chinatown. They were staging, they said it was to protect the federal buildings. But then all of a sudden all these ICE vans started showing up. Department of Homeland Security started showing up. So they say one thing, but then the facts on the ground show that it's completely something else. And the facts are we were hearing reports on this situation that they were taking, they're bringing. Using the same vans and bringing those same vans that they use to conduct raids in Hollywood to Dodger Stadium.

Rachel Maddow (19:56)

I want to ask you about. I mean, that is just. It's a huge parking lot. So clearly they had enormous plans there, potentially. That sounds like they were thwarted. For now, I want to ask you about this new reporting that DHS is requiring 72 hours notice from any member of Congress who wants to inspect an ICE detention facility. You've been blocked repeatedly. Repeatedly. We just showed a video of you explaining what their explanation was the last time. But you've been blocked repeatedly from trying to enter federal buildings to visit people who are being detained. What can you do to ensure you get access? And what concerns do you have? Because when you give 72 hours notice, they can clean things up, they can make things look better, they can give people food. I don't know. They can do all sorts of things. What concerns do you have about the 72 hour piece?

Jimmy Gomez (20:44)

Well, the 72 hour piece is concerning because it's thwarting the law. Remember, the law says we can show up at any moment to conduct oversight. Number two, they're Going to. They're going to move things around. They'll make sure that there is not. There's not overcrowding. They'll make sure that they clean up the area. That's what they do in order for us not to see what's really going on in those facilities. But what's really concerning is how now they're saying that this law doesn't apply because they're a processing facility. I was speaking to somebody in Congressional affairs and said, we're not detaining anybody here. We're actually processing people here. And it was like, what if you're not free to leave, you're a detainee and therefore we have authority to conduct oversight. So what's going to happen when all of a sudden they open up field camps and say, these are not detention centers. Oh, we're not detaining anybody. We're processing them for months on end. That's the kind of stuff that happens in Vietnam where you can actually be held indefinitely as they do research on your case, until they investigate your case. That's not who we are. We're the United States of America. We have rules and laws in place to protect the civil rights and civil liberties of individuals. They're assumed innocent until proven guilty. But with this administration, if you're brown and you're walking on the street or you're in this country, you're guilty until you prove you're a citizen. And even in those cases, they're still detaining people who are American citizens, which is completely shameful and not who we are.

Rachel Maddow (22:14)

It shouldn't be who we are. Let me ask you about this reporting that JD Vance might visit LA this week. I mean, it seems like an insane thing to do, but to me, I also think this is kind of what they want. They want to create chaos and create a reaction. What do you make of it? And do you think he should come?

Jimmy Gomez (22:35)

I don't think he should come, but he's going to be met by, I believe, protesters upon thousands of thousands of protesters. Because JD Vance is just as bad as Donald Trump. And he's basically here to, not only to antagonize, but to and to taunt, but to send a message that they're not going away. Well, we're not going away either. So we're going to keep making sure that our voices are heard, but we're going to do it in a peaceful way so that people understand the injustice that's being committed against the people of Los Angeles.

Rachel Maddow (23:07)

Congressman Jimmy Gomez, thank you for continuing to show up and continuing to try to explain to all of us and everybody what is actually going on. I really appreciate you joining us.

Jimmy Gomez (23:16)

Thank you.

Rachel Maddow (23:17)

And coming up, I showed you that one clip of Caroline Levitt earlier, and I'm going to give her the rest of the day off. I'm going to step in to answer some questions she got at her briefing today after a very quick break. For days now, the entire world has understandably been on pins and needles waiting to see whether or not Trump is going to decide to bomb Iran. And that was naturally a big focus of today's press briefing. Of course, it was. Now, given some of the answers I heard from the current press secretary, I thought I'd take another crack at answering some of them myself. Okay, we're going to start with Mary Bruce from ABC News. Kick it off, Mary. Just to clarify, the president's statement just now, when he says that he'll make a decision in the next two weeks, is he saying that if Iran does.

Jen Psaki (24:09)

Not come back to the negotiating table.

Rachel Maddow (24:11)

Within the next two weeks that the president will strike? And is he seeing any signs of progress? He obviously is holding out hope for negotiations, but is he seeing any inklings of progress that give him that hope that talks are still possible? Mary, Mary, Mary, two weeks is a tactic. It's not on any timeline or deadline. I mean, to give you a sense, and I mentioned this earlier, he's used this tactic ten times in the last six months alone. And he did it a lot during the first term, too. And guess what? There's never anything at the end of the two weeks. Now, as for the negotiating table, that would be great, but it is kind of hard to imagine Iran is actually going to do that right now, given it would make them look like they're responding to Trump's threat. I mean, we'll see, but that's what they might look like. They also see all the politics in the United States that we do. They know where Steve Bannon was, that he was at the White House today. They know what the MAGA members of the isolationist party think. They know there's a civil war within the Republican Party. They know all that. They know Trump is weighing it. This is about Trump buying time. Maybe he will make a decision to strike, maybe he won't. But my bet is this is just as much about reading domestic politics and having more time to do that as it is about actually negotiating tactics. All right, politico's Dasha Burns.

Jimmy Gomez (25:31)

I know things are going day by day right now. The president wants maximum Optionality.

Rachel Maddow (25:36)

Is the possibility of the US Getting.

Jen Psaki (25:39)

Involved in regime change in Iran at.

Jimmy Gomez (25:41)

All on the table at this point?

Rachel Maddow (25:44)

I mean, less than a week ago, Trump did muse about going after the Ayatollah. It was less than a week ago in the same post where he told people to evacuate Tehran. No, who knows? But all of that likely stems from the fact that it is definitely on the table for Netanyahu, who even told ABC News that Israel might choose to end the conflict by killing Iran's supreme leader. He said that out loud. So if the US Gets further mired in Israel's war and killing Iran's leader is the end game, we know Trump is taking a lot of direction from Netanyahu. So an attempt at regime change is certainly a possibility, certainly on the table. Okay, next up, Rob Crilly from the Telegraph.

Jimmy Gomez (26:26)

To what extent is this two week delay with Iran the result of interventions by the likes of Tucker Carlson, Marjorie Taylor Greene or the entreaties on of European leaders who want a de escalation?

Rachel Maddow (26:36)

Oh, Rob, the president appears to make his decisions based on whoever tripped last in his ear or whatever he last saw on Fox News. And the fact that Steve Bannon was at the White House today kind of around the time Trump decided to put his decision on ice for two weeks, though Steve Bannon had said a lot of these things publicly, tells you a lot about what you need to know right now. Now, if you're looking for a rank order of the people you listed or the groups you listed, I can assure you that of all the people you mentioned, and I'm going to throw Fox News in, has a different position than Steve Bannon and Marjorie Taylor Greene. The people he is least likely to listen to are the European leaders. I can assure you of that. Ok, Mike Carter from Newsmax, why not?

Jimmy Gomez (27:19)

One last question.

Nicole Wallace (27:19)

When it comes to the President's position.

Rachel Maddow (27:21)

On foreign policy in general, is there.

Nicole Wallace (27:23)

A phrase that the White House has coined?

Rachel Maddow (27:26)

Is there a Trump doctrine?

Nicole Wallace (27:27)

Does the President like to talk about this? Anyone here in the White House talking about this? And if somebody, if there is something akin to a Trump doctrine, how would you define it?

Rachel Maddow (27:36)

Such a hard hitting question, Mike. I always know I can depend on you. America first is what they say their doctrine is. It's a slogan, though. It's not a policy agenda. And Trump recently said that he gets to decide what America first means. So who knows what that means? So his foreign policy can really only be described as, I guess, a combination of astonishing weakness, fecklessness and a profound ability to be so easily manipulated by foreign authoritarians. If you want to call that the Trump Doctrine, have at it. You can even quote me on that. I hope that answers your questions. And up next, we're going to try and answer another one. Who exactly is the president listening to inside his administration right now and who's off in the wilderness? I've got just the person to ask, and he joins me after a quick break. Donald Trump weighs whether or not to order strikes on Iran. Two key cabinet members typically involved in such deliberations reportedly find themselves outside the inner circle, the director of national intelligence and the secretary of Defense. That's right, Fox News staples Tulsi Gabbard and Pete Hegseth. What they lack in terms of experience, they apparently can't make up with MAGA star power. Who would have thought? According to Politico, Gabbard fell out of Trump's good graces after posting a bizarre video earlier this month warning about the threat of global nuclear annihilation. At the time, the video seemed odd and out of place, but the reporting suggests it was actually Gabbard's attempts to steer Trump away from joining Israel and attacking Iran, which, according to Politico, only made Trump incensed. And what about former weekend Fox host turned Defense secretary Pete Hegseth? Well, look at this quote from an anonymous Republican senator who spoke to NBC News about who Trump does and doesn't listen to. Here it is, quote, pete is a show horse. He's very good on tv. He's very consistent in his message, and he always mentions the president. But Trump is no fool. He knows Pete. Oof. Another US Official put it like this in the Washington Post. Nobody is talking to Hegseth. There is no interface operationally between Hegseth and the White House at all. Again, that is the secretary of defense they are talking about at a time when we could get involved in a new military conflict at literally any moment. Warren Strobel covers U.S. intelligence for the Washington Post. He's one of the reporters who broke that story in the Post, and he joins me now. Warren, it's great to see you, I have to say. I mean, and I talked to a bunch of my former colleagues today, too, just to say, isn't this weird? This is weird right after reading your reporting. It is strange to have these two positions out of the loop during a crisis like this where they're discussing war and peace. And both are strange. But what particularly sticks out to me given this is a consideration of bombing Iran, is the secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth. Being left out. Why, according to your reporting, has he been left out?

Nicole Wallace (30:39)

I think because he and Tulsi Gabbard don't bring a lot to the table. And Trump, for all his flaws, is not a fool. And, you know, as one of my colleagues at the Post put it very well, these two people you're talking about, we're talking about are good at culture wars. They're not the right people for war wars. And we're in a situation now where there could be a war war. And he's listening to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the commander of U.S. central Command, and Ratcliffe, the head of the CIA, who is actually his main intelligence briefer at this point.

Rachel Maddow (31:08)

Yeah. You mentioned in your piece that Joint Chiefs of Staff General Dan Kaine is in the loop. You also mentioned, as you just said, that John Radcliffe remains in the loop. The CIA director, he's included. Is that because Trump sees him as more astute on intelligence, or are there other reasons for that?

Nicole Wallace (31:27)

I think it's because Ratcliffe is seen as more low key. He's not a showboat. And this is a time where you really don't need showboats. I should say one thing, though. We're talking about all the advisors. I mean, as you know, Jen, Trump's number one advisor is Donald J. Trump. And he's gonna do. He thinks he's a. He's called himself a stable genius, smarter than his generals. He trusts his gut. And so while it's important who he's listening to, I mean, he's going to make the final decision himself based on a bunch of factors, including some of the political factors you talked to or talked about earlier.

Rachel Maddow (31:59)

You mentioned in your story. I mean, and there's been a range of reporting that, that the Secretary of Defense is really not in operational contact, it seems, with the White House, which is very strange. I'm just going to just. Echo is very strange. What is he doing? How are they in touch? What more did you learn through your reporting on this?

Nicole Wallace (32:17)

Yeah, and I should say a lot of this reporting came from my good colleague Alex Horton, who covers the Pentagon. We did the story together. We don't want your viewers or our readers to think that Hegseth and Gabbard aren't in the room. They've been in the Situation Room. They've been in many of the meetings, but they're not bringing a lot to the table. And as far as we can tell, the White House is dealing directly with the. The military commanders in the region, like General Carrillo, the head of CENTCOM and General Kaine. Those are where the discussions are having and they're going around or over under Pete Hegseth. I think Hecseth lost a lot of jam at the White House with the whole signal gate controversy. And as you may remember, there was a series of controversies and chaos with his personnel, his top personnel in his first months at the Pentagon. So he's not seen as somebody who's, you know, solid player, really.

Rachel Maddow (33:05)

Who could have predicted that? Warren Strobel, thank you so much for your reporting. Thanks for being here with me tonight.

Nicole Wallace (33:11)

Thanks for having me.

Rachel Maddow (33:13)

Coming up after that shocking assassination in Minnesota over the weekend. The threat of political violence is hanging over elected officials all across the country, and it was hanging over elected officials even before that. Minnesota Senator Tina Smith is standing by and she joins me next. Last night, people in the Twin Cities came together in a beautiful vigil for former Minnesota House Speaker Melissa Hortman and her husband, Mark. Days after they were assassinated in a politically motivated attack, about 1500 people showed up to pay their respects, including Minnesota Governor Tim Walz and his wife, Gwen. Some people even brought their golden retrievers in honor of the Hortmans beloved dog. But lawmakers not just from Minnesota, but all across the country today are still grappling with the chilling reality of the dangers that now come with a life in public service. The Washington Post reported that Capitol Police data shows a major jump in the number of threats against members of Congress, their families and staff. Over 9,000 threats were made in 2024, more than double the number in 2017. Just today, Congressman Max Miller, an Ohio Republican, said he has reported to local police in Ohio and to Capitol Police that a deranged man ran him off the road, threatening him and his family. In New York, the NYPD is investigating a threat made against mayoral candidate Zoran Mamdani in which a man allegedly threatened to bomb Mamdani's car. And ABC News is reporting that federal authorities are investigating anonymous pizza deliveries censor the homes of lawmakers across the country as well as Capitol Police leadership, which in this current atmosphere means someone is saying, I know where you live. Joining us now is Senator Tina Smith, a Democrat from Minnesota and a friend and colleague of the late Speaker Horbman. Senator Smith, I have been thinking about you all week and I want to get your thoughts on all of this because there are so many discussions. But first I just want to say how I know it was a painful and personal week and my heart and all of our hearts go out to you and the entire Delegation. And I wanted to just ask you, what is sitting with you tonight as you reflect on Melissa and Mark's lives? We showed a bit of the vigil last night. It was really moving. But that and the circumstances around their deaths last weekend.

Jen Psaki (35:30)

Oh, Jen, I so appreciate that. And, I mean, the outflowing of support and love that has come to the, you know, to us, and especially to Sophie and Colin and to so many people who knew and worked with Melissa has really been. Given me a lot of hope in what has been a very, very, very dark week. You know, I've been thinking a lot about working with Melissa. When I was first chief of staff for the governor of Minnesota, and she was rising in leadership in the Democratic Caucus. And I'm sure you can relate to this. When you're in the middle of a tough negotiation, you're trying to figure out how to get something done. She was the one you wanted in the room. She brought this, like, sense of humor, this ability to focus on what was important. She always was on top of what the issues were. And she had this capacity to, like, understand the people in the room, Republicans and Democrats, and then bring it all together, which is exactly what I think people really want to see in their public servants. And so her loss, this tragic killing, is still really hard for me to process, to tell you the truth.

Rachel Maddow (36:41)

Of course it is. And that is a superpower, what you just described. It is absolutely what every public servant should aspire to be. It's what she sounds like she was even before this horrific political assassination. You are somebody who has been vocal about the rise in political violence, the challenges of the rhetoric coming from Trump and the administration and some of his followers as a driver, and you and so many others have called for it to stop. And you hope, I hope, we all hope, that in moments like this, it does stop, that people reflect, but it's not what else can be done. What do you wish people would understand about the impact of some of this rhetoric, given the rising political violence?

Jen Psaki (37:24)

Well, I think first deciding that you want to serve, that you want to be an elected official, that you want to serve as a city council member, a school board, or a state representative, as these individuals were, or in the United States Senate, any place it should not be, also signing up to put your life at risk. And I really think that our country is at a tipping point right now. Are we going to tip forward into more chaos and more cruelty and more violence, or are we going to all take a step back? And I think it's important also to understand that we're not at a moment where this is a both sides situation. I mean, the rhetoric, the violent rhetoric that is coming from the extreme right wing and the violence that ensues from that is something that we have to recognize. And we need our colleagues and the people that, that we work with on both sides of the aisle, but especially our Republican colleagues, to stand up and to say, no, this is not who we are. This is not how we do things. We do not believe that violence is a way to resolve our differences and then to call out when they see it happening in real time. And I think that's what we need in this moment, to kind of step back from the precipice.

Rachel Maddow (38:37)

I think that's what everybody would expect would happen. Right. No matter what your political background is, who's out there, you know, in the aftermath of this, your Republican colleague Mike Lee made incredibly offensive comments on social media. You confronted him about it. There were some photos of that. He ultimately took them down. But as far as I know, and you tell me, he never apologized to you, which I know it's not just about that. It's about being a part of the solution. But are you satisfied with that? And what, what do you hope? What do you want your Republican colleagues out there to be doing right now that maybe they're not doing at this point in response to what happened last weekend?

Jen Psaki (39:21)

So in this incredibly painful moment, rather than like, put out a tweet or do what we usually do in Washington, which is to talk to one another through some other medium, through some other person, I wanted to speak with him directly and try to have a conversation about what the impact of his words were there. And words have consequences. What he did was deeply painful to not only me, but to the Hortman family and the Hoffman family and to the millions of Minnesotans who care about what is happening in our world right now, he did not apologize. He listened to what I said. But I think what is needed in this moment is a realization and then that, as I said, words have consequences, and you have to be responsible for what you say. And what happens on social media is a driver for some of this violence. It is not just sort of this sideshow that is unrelated to what happens in the real world. I really need my Republican colleagues to step up, just as I would if the shoe was on the other foot. And I think that's what Americans want. They don't want to see this kind of, you know, they don't want to see Donald Trump Jr. Making a joke about Paul Pelosi being attacked. They don't want to see Mike Lee making a joke about a horrible and cruel joke about the person who killed Melissa Hortman. My friend, people, this is, I really do believe, and this is what gives me hope, that this is not what most Americans want.

Rachel Maddow (40:50)

I hope it's not what most Americans want. I think it's so important, as hard as I know it has been, for you to speak out and help people understand what's needed at this moment. And I just want to. I read some of this last night, but I was so struck by your deputy chief of staff wrote a letter to Lee's team and I just wanted to end by reading some of that. He said you exploited the murder of a lifetime public servant and her husband to post some sick burns about Democrats. Did you see that as an excellent opportunity to get likes and retweets? Have you absolutely no conscience, no decency? I pray to God that none of you go through anything like this. I read that because I want people to understand that's not what it is supposed to be. And you are an example of someone speaking out about how it should not be that. I'm so grateful. Senator Tina Smith, thank you for joining us. I'm so sorry that this has been such a difficult personal week for you as well.

Jen Psaki (41:38)

Well, thank you. And thank you for letting me share a little bit about what an incredible person Melissa was. I'm really glad to be with you tonight, Jen.

Rachel Maddow (41:46)

Absolutely. Coming up, Congressman Jamie Raskin is standing by for the top of the last hour. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue Sky, Instagram and TikTok for now. Goodbye from Washington and we'll see you next week.

Nicole Wallace (42:09)

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Rachel Maddow (42:22)

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Nicole Wallace (42:24)

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