Psaki: The Trump administration fails the 3 a.m. phone call test

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode Title: Psaki: The Trump Administration Fails the 3 a.m. Phone Call Test
Release Date: May 7, 2025
Host: Jen Psaki, MSNBC
Description: Jen Psaki tackles the biggest issues of the week and features one-on-one interviews with newsmakers.

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1. Introduction

The episode opens with a brief montage highlighting notable personalities and upcoming MSNBC programming. Jen Psaki sets the stage for a critical discussion about recent failures within the Trump administration, particularly focusing on crises that challenge national security and public safety.

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2. Air Traffic Control Crisis

Psaki delves into alarming incidents surrounding the U.S. air traffic control system. She references a recent accident where two United Airlines planes collided on the tarmac at San Francisco International Airport, resulting in no casualties but signaling systemic issues. This follows a radar failure at Newark Airport that left air traffic controllers blind for 90 seconds, an event that "led to multiple FAA employees being placed on trauma leave" ([02:04]).

Notable Quote:

"It's 3am and your children are safe and asleep. But there's a phone in the White House and it's ringing. Something's happening in the world."
— Hillary Clinton ([02:04])

Psaki criticizes Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy's handling of these incidents, highlighting his lack of relevant experience and attributing failures to his leadership. She points out that Duffy has a minimal record on transportation issues, quoting a local reporter who noted Duffy has only mentioned a transportation issue once in his career ([02:30]).

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3. Critique of Administration Officials

The discussion shifts to broader criticisms of Trump administration officials:

• Sean Duffy: Psaki emphasizes Duffy’s inappropriate appointment given his background in reality TV and minimal experience in transportation. She accuses him of politicizing issues and undermining the FAA’s authority.

• Pete Hexseth: The Secretary of Defense faces scrutiny for unilateral decisions, such as halting military aid to Ukraine without proper authorization or communication. Psaki highlights a Reuters report where Hexseth misinterpreted President Trump’s discussions, leading to confusion and halted aid shipments ([07:10]).

• Military Cuts: Psaki mentions Hexseth's order to cut 20% of four-star generals and admirals, questioning the rationale and potential impacts on military preparedness. She underscores the lack of transparency and strategic planning behind these moves ([19:14]).

Notable Quotes:

"This is one of the most important jobs of anybody in the human species..."
— Wes Moore ([20:35])

"We have backups in place, but let's talk about what happens. We have really old infrastructure in America..."
— Chris Hayes ([04:43])

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4. Interview with Wes Moore

Jen Psaki welcomes former Secretary of Transportation and Maryland Governor Wes Moore for an in-depth conversation. Moore addresses the current state of the FAA, emphasizing safety and the need for focused leadership within the Department of Transportation.

Key Points Discussed:

• FAA Challenges: Moore acknowledges ongoing issues with air traffic control, including workforce shortages and outdated technology. He advocates for continued modernization efforts and increased staffing ([15:24]).

• Impact of Political Interference: Moore criticizes the suspension of the FAA's independent review panel and the removal of the NTSB vice chair, highlighting the politicization of safety oversight bodies ([15:45]).

• Military Restructuring: Addressing Hexseth's cuts, Moore expresses concern over the potential weakening of military leadership and operational readiness. He stresses the importance of deliberate and informed restructuring rather than arbitrary reductions ([19:14]).

Notable Quotes:

"Any time there's restructuring and change and... it seems to be either highly political or totally random."
— Wes Moore ([19:14])

"Safe air travel is not a partisan issue. This is something everybody cares about."
— Wes Moore ([17:23])

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5. Democratic Policies and Activism

The conversation shifts to the Democratic Party's response to the Trump administration's actions. Psaki references Senator Bernie Sanders' call for an agenda that addresses the working class, aligning it with ongoing Democratic efforts to redefine patriotism and promote substantive policy changes.

Key Points:

• Policy Ambition: Moore advocates for more ambitious Democratic policies to address income inequality, healthcare, and social security, arguing that incremental changes are insufficient to meet current challenges ([25:31]).

• Activism and Public Engagement: Moore highlights the surge in activism, with citizens engaging in protests and advocacy to oppose administration policies like immigration restrictions and cuts to Social Security. He sees this as a reclaiming of authentic patriotism ([35:34], [36:17]).

• Ethical Governance: Discussing Maryland’s new law requiring governors to divest from personal business interests, Moore emphasizes the importance of transparency and ethical standards to restore public trust ([40:13]).

Notable Quotes:

"Patriotism is being willing to be part of a solution to make your country that more perfect union..."
— Wes Moore ([37:32])

"It is a question of making very clear to everybody how your everyday life is different if we're in charge compared to if they're in charge."
— Wes Moore ([25:11])

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6. Patriotism Discussion

A central theme of the episode is the contrasting definitions of patriotism between Democrats and Republicans. Psaki critiques the Trump administration's focus on performative patriotism—costly parades, oversized flagpoles, and military pageantry—arguing that true patriotism should prioritize the welfare of citizens and support for veterans.

Key Points:

• Critique of Performative Acts: Psaki criticizes initiatives like renaming the Gulf of Mexico as the Gulf of America and planning expensive military parades as superficial displays that neglect substantive national needs ([35:32]).

• Support for Veterans: Highlighting the Department of Veterans Affairs' struggles, Psaki points to inadequate mental health services and the impact of administrative cuts on veteran care. She underscores the need for genuine support over symbolic gestures ([33:39]).

• Authentic Patriotism: Moore elaborates on a more meaningful definition of patriotism, inspired by his grandfather's resilience and love for an imperfect yet striving America. He emphasizes active participation in improving the nation ([37:58], [39:25]).

Notable Quotes:

"Patriotism is not about simple displays. It is being willing to sacrifice on behalf of this country..."
— Wes Moore ([37:58])

"We should be all for that. How about less focus on maps and flag poles and parades and more on providing quality care for the people who actually serve the country?"
— Pete Buttigieg ([37:32])

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7. Future Outlook and Conclusions

As the episode concludes, Psaki expresses optimism about the Democratic Party's direction, highlighting leaders like Pete Buttigieg and Wes Moore who advocate for ethical governance and substantive policy reforms. She emphasizes the importance of holding those in power accountable and remaining steadfast against authoritarian tendencies.

Final Thoughts:

• Hope and Resilience: Psaki conveys a hopeful message, acknowledging the challenges posed by the current administration but affirming the strength and resilience of Democratic leaders and activists ([28:44], [43:04]).

• Upcoming Guests: She teases future episodes featuring Governor Tim Walz and Senator Raphael Warnock, promising continued in-depth analysis and discussions on pressing national issues.

Closing Remark:

"One thing I've learned over the years is that you can never cower to bullies and I have no intention to do that."
— Pete Buttigieg ([28:44])

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Conclusion

This episode of The Briefing with Jen Psaki provides a critical examination of the Trump administration's handling of national security and public safety issues, contrasting it with the Democratic Party's commitment to ethical leadership and substantive policy reforms. Through incisive interviews and pointed commentary, Psaki underscores the importance of authentic patriotism and the need for accountability within government institutions.

Transcript

[David Frost]

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[Chris Hayes]

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[Pete Buttigieg]

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[David Frost]

Sunday at 9:00pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Okay, when we asked Pete Buttigieg, who Chris just mentioned is gonna be our first guest. He's coming up shortly, but when we asked him to come on our first show just a couple weeks ago, I kind of thought we'd mainly talk about politics and we definitely will. We will talk a lot about politics. He's got a lot to say about it. What I didn't realize at the time is he would also kind of be the perfect person to talk to at this moment for a very different reason. Just hours ago, we learned that last night, just after midnight at San Francisco International Airport, two United Airlines planes clipped each other's wings. They were still on the tarmac when it happened. Thankfully, nobody, of course, was hurt. But it of course isn't an isolated incident. I mean, it comes on the heels of yesterday's news that a radar failure left the air traffic controllers managing Newark Airport operating blind without radar or radio communication for 90 seconds last week. 90 seconds. By the way, NBC also reported late today that air traffic control at Newark lost contact with pilots at least two other times since August. Not an isolated incident either. But that latest incident that I just mentioned that occurred last week was so bad that it led to multiple FAA employees being placed on trauma leave. Of course, why wouldn't it? It's incredibly traumatic. But given how out of control this all feels and how scared not just the air traffic controllers but many people out there are to fly right now. I keep thinking about an ad that ran during the 2008 primary campaign which you also may remember.

[Hillary Clinton]

It's 3am and your children are safe and asleep. But there's a phone in the White House and it's ringing. Something's happening in the world. Your vote will decide who answers that call. Whether it's someone who already knows the world' knows the military, someone tested and ready to lead in a dangerous world. It's 3am and your children are safe and asleep. Who do you want answering the phone?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Now, obviously that ad at the time 15 years ago was meant to paint a relative political newcomer, Barack Obama, as someone who was totally unprepared to deal with the middle of the night calls when a Crisis hits. And to be fair, it is a fundamental question that everybody should consider about any president and the people they surround themselves with. And I keep thinking about that ad because right now, the guy sitting in the Oval Office picked this guy to answer the middle of night calls about what is happening in our skies. This is the true story of five ex Real Worlders picked for the ride of their lives. Sean from the Real World, Boston, who you just saw there, is, of course, Trump Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy. Now, part of the reason I am bringing up that he was on MTV's Road Rules all Stars, a good season, if I may say, back in the 1990s is because it's kind of funny. But the other reason is that this was the most relevant part of Mr. Duffy's resume to lead the Transportation Department. And I am not kidding here. I'm not being tongue in cheek or exaggerating. I mean, a local reporter and the Wisconsin examiner who has covered Duffy's career since 2009, put it this way. He said, quote, I only have one account in all those years when he even mentioned a transportation issue. The reporter goes on, I love the emphasis. That's it. One mention of a transportation issue. So, yeah, I mean, Sean from the Real World Boston is the guy in charge of our nation's skies at the moment. He is the one who would answer the 3am phone call. And while he was not picked by Trump for his work on the Real World that we know of, Never say never, we don't entirely know for sure. He was picked in part in large part because of his work on Fox News and because of his willingness to go on national TV and basically politicize any issue. A willingness that seems to continue to this day. I mean, case in point, the aforementioned Newark airport crisis. But how close were we for potential disaster there?

[Chris Hayes]

We have backups in place, but let's talk about what happens. We have really old infrastructure in America. It hasn't been updated in the last 30, 40 years. This should have been dealt with in the last administration. They did nothing.

[Pete Buttigieg]

So again, they've been in office for more than 100 days. A conservative host who's sympathetic asked the current transportation secretary about a current crisis happening right now at one of the biggest airports in the country, an international airport, by the way, too. And his response was to blame the Biden administration, which hasn't been in office for more than three months. And that comes us today. The Washington Post reported that Sean Duffy's Federal Aviation Administration also suspended the work of the independent panel of experts in Charge of reviewing what is actually going wrong with air traffic control. I mean, we'd love to know the answer to that. Right? The Post reports that expert panel's work has been put on hold completely since February, as in a couple months ago. Betting. I'm kind of betting the last Transportation Secretary, Pete Buttigieg, may have some thoughts on that. Gonna talk with him about it in a moment. But the most important thing here is this. This is still a crisis. I mean, it needs to be solved by the people who are currently in power. It's not just Newark, either. On Friday, two commercial planes had to abort their landings at DC's Reagan National Airport because an army helicopter entered the airport's airspace. That, of course, comes just months after 67 people were killed in a collision at that same airport between a commercial jet and an army helicopter. Now, as for Friday's near miss, the AP reported that the army helicopter appeared to take the scenic route around the Pentagon. The scenic route. And then in subsequent reporting, the AP added that the helicopter in question was part of a battalion that provides transport to top Pentagon officials. Now, that raises lots of questions. And if you're wondering what top Pentagon officials were taking helicopters on the scenic route here, you're not alone. I'm also wondering that. But here's the thing, Sean, from the real world, the Transportation Secretary doesn't seem to know either.

[Chris Hayes]

Who do these generals think they are that they have to take helicopters to go to meetings? I don't know who it was. We should find out. And, well, the DOD is.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Who do we ask? You're the Transportation Secretary.

[Chris Hayes]

How do you not know? The FAA doesn't know. We asked the DoD. The DoD has promised radical transparency. They should tell us who is qualified to take a helicopter out of the Pentagon. I don't know, but they have to tell us.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Oh, could you just call up Hexa?

[Chris Hayes]

Well, I should actually. Why don't you call him right now? You call Pete.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Okay. I love that he's kind of an observer of the crisis that his actual agency oversees. And why don't you call Pete? That would make a lot of sense. I hear he's very reachable on signal. You're trying to reach him right now. Good way to get him. Now, to be fair, Pete Hegseth, you know, the other Fox host who turned into a cabinet secretary. Seems to be a theme here. Has his own growing list of problems right now that might be tying him up a little bit, maybe making it harder for him to take a call. Who knows? The latest being this report From Reuters that a few months ago, Hetsev apparently shut off military aid to Ukraine all on his own without telling anybody. Now, here's what the story says. Roughly a week after Donald Trump started his second term as president, the US military issued an stop 11 flights loaded with artillery shells and other weaponry bound for Ukraine in a matter of hours. Frantic questions, of course, reached Washington from Ukrainians in Kyiv. Top national security officials in the White House, the Pentagon, and the State Department couldn't provide answers. Now, records reviewed by Reuters indicate that, quote, there was a verbal order from the Secretary of Defense that stopped the flights. That's how it happened. The president, though, was unaware of Hegseth's order, as were other top national security officials. And three sources told Reuters that the cancellations happened in this chain of events. Hagseth met in the Oval Office with Trump and, quote, misinterpreted discussions with the president about Ukraine policy and aid shipments. That is quite a misinterpretation, I will say. Sounds like Pete Hegseth met with the president, thought he wanted him to cut off aid to Ukraine immediately, and then he just went and ordered the plans to stop. And what followed, of course, was mass confusion within the US Government, within Ukraine, from European partners, from basically anybody involved. According to the Reuters piece, the the Ukrainians quickly asked the administration through multiple channels, but had difficulty obtaining any useful information. They were, of course, the ones waiting for the artillery and the military equipment. They're in the middle of a war right now. They couldn't get any information. Now, in a normal White House, there's a system in place, a big bureaucratic system that has been working for Democratic and Republican administrations to keep something like this from happening. Typically, there'd be an entire process run through the National Security Council where all the considerations about freezing military support for an ally would be discussed and sometimes aggressively debated. That's a healthy part of the process, too. People from the intel community and the State Department and the Defense Department all have different objectives and things they need to raise. That's an important part of the process before they tee up a decision to the president, any president makes the final decision. But all of that coordination and yes, debate means everyone is also prepared to implement, which also requires a tremendous amount of coordination to get it right. Because there are many different levers of power being worked from the US Government and in touch with officials overseas at all times. No one typically is surprised within the US Government, and ideally not allies and partners either. It's clearly, to state the obvious, not what happened here, but it all should serve as a pretty stark reminder as to why the National Security Council is actually pretty necessary. According to the Washington Post, though, some senior White House officials are questioning the need to even have a National Security Council at all. I mean, who needs all that expertise and debating and coordination among agencies when your cabinet can just handle communication and policymaking through a dozen signal group chats or many other signal group chats? I'm sure we'll find out about more. Seems to be working well so far, doesn't it? I mean. Meanwhile, Pete Hexseth has also found the time in all of this last couple of days to issue an order to cut 20% of the military's generals and admirals. 20%. The one page memo has few details about how these cuts will happen or which positions will be cut, or whether dozens of high ranking long serving expert military officers are about to get summarily fired. But what we know is that he thinks eliminating four star generals will, according to him, help us, and this is his direct quote, uphold our position as the most lethal fighting force in the world. That is hard to wrap your head around that argument, but that's what he said. So as long as I'll appear, we appear to have a White House that has no functioning or coherent process which matters for making or implementing decisions at the same time that it is hollowing out expertise inside the military and other government agencies investigating things like our airs and sky and why, making sure planes are safe. I guess, though we shouldn't be surprised that Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy was back on Fox News today. I guess it went so well yesterday complaining that he still can't get any answers from the Pentagon about that army helicopter causing those aborted landings at Reagan Airport last week. I don't know why the Pentagon hasn't gotten back to you on this yet, but we hope they sure do soon.

[Chris Hayes]

So do I.

[Pete Buttigieg]

So do we. I mean, what's happening here? He works in the same administration, fortunately. Tonight we have with us the former Secretary of Transportation. We can ask him about this and everything else that has gone down since he left office a few months ago. Pete Buttigieg is standing by and he joins me live in just 90 seconds.

[David Frost]

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[Pete Buttigieg]

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[David Frost]

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[Pete Buttigieg]

What's happening right now is a hostile takeover of the US Government.

[David Frost]

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[Xfinity Representative]

Since we each upgraded to Xfinity in our homes, the WI fi has been booming. It's fair to say our town has officially become a boom town.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Mayor, will I be able to drop into multiplayer gaming battles with low lag?

[Xfinity Representative]

The lag won't be an issue. But your questionable skills, maybe.

[Pete Buttigieg]

And what if I have hundreds of devices on the WI Fi? Purely hypothetical.

[Xfinity Representative]

Seems like a lot, but sure, hundreds of devices all booming. Together with the Xfinity Gateway. Yes, friends and neighbors, with Xfinity, the WI Fi is booming.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Restrictions apply as promised. Joining me now is former Secretary of Transportation, former Mayor Pete Buttigieg. It's great to see you. Good to be here, bearded and all. There's so much I want to talk to you about. We're going to get to politics. So much to talk about there. But as I noted at the top of the show, you're kind of the perfect person to talk to about a lot of what's happening right now that a lot of Americans are concerned about. And just so people know, you don't get a secret memo when you're out of government as to the internal workings of airports. But you were the transportation secretary for four years. As you're looking at what happened at the Newark airport at the cutoff of contact for air traffic controllers, what do you make of what's going on there?

[Wes Moore]

Well, it's obviously a real concern, a major concern. Look, when you become secretary of Transportation, you know that your most important priority is safety. I understood that my predecessors understood that, and my successor says that he understands that. I hope and expect that he does, too, and everything else takes a back seat to that. But this is something that obviously raises safety as well as operational concerns. It also rings true with the experience that I had with some real challenges at the FAA in terms of the workforce, a shortage of air traffic controllers, and in terms of the technology. We did everything we could to make progress on those fronts. There's clearly a long way to go, and so much depends on there being focused, capable, excellent leadership at the Department of Transportation and across the government to make sure that that keeps pace. Because obviously we're more and more cracks and seams in the system right now.

[Pete Buttigieg]

You're also the perfect person to ask about. I mentioned some of this, but in February, apparently the administration halted an outside panel of experts responsible for reviewing the FAA's air traffic control management. We learned today that there was the firing of the vice chair of the NTSB of course responsible for investigating. What should people understand about the impact of all of that?

[Wes Moore]

Well, they should understand first of all, that's a highly unusual thing. That safety panel was not a political body. It was a very bipartis body. And the work it's doing should really not be something that changes depending on which party is in control. And the ntsb, this is the National Transportation Safety Board. They're independent from the dot. They're the ones who go in, in situations like the tragic plane crash that took place here in Washington earlier this year. They leave no stone unturned. They are pros. They're extraordinary what they do. And they put heat on everybody from the administration to industry to make needed improvements. But again, this is a very bipartisan heard of a White House in modern times removing somebody from the ntsb. And they've not provided any explanation or reason why. And that's something that I think anybody in the public, as a taxpayer and as a traveler would want to know and understand.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Everybody who's worried about traveling right now, I mean, to your point, safe air travel is not a partisan issue. This is something everybody cares about. Everybody's impacted by now. The current Transportation secretary, Sean Zeff Duffy of real world fame, which I'm just going to keep saying, basically blame the whole thing on the Biden administration. I just want to play a clip of him because I'm sure you might have some thoughts on this. But how close were we for. For potential disaster there?

[Chris Hayes]

We have backups in place. Let's talk about what happens. We have really old infrastructure in America. It hasn't been updated in the last 30, 40 years. This should have been dealt with in the last administration. They did nothing.

[Pete Buttigieg]

What do you make of that?

[Wes Moore]

It's just politics. Look, I hated the technology that we inherited because it did need to be.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Upgraded from the last administration and prior to.

[Wes Moore]

Yeah, I mean, look, these problems have built up over a long time. I didn't sit around saying, who can we blame for this? We launched a contract to modernize the infrastructure, take what's basically a copper wire system and transform it for the Internet era, get fiber going there. Now, that's not something that could be done overnight. One of the things that's hardest to do when, when you leave an office like that is you hand over the keys and it's up to the new guy to take it to the next level. But that's very much something that we had underway. So there were really two sets of issues. There was the technology piece, and that's one of the Things we did about that. And then there was the workforce piece. We all know that we haven't had enough air traffic controllers. And again, this built up over decades. There were literally decades when the number of air traffic controllers were going down. We finally got it to go up. We had a growing air traffic control workforce and that's what we handed over to the new administration. I don't know whether that number is going up or down now. I don't know whether they've kept it growing or whether it is falling back. But I do know what we did. It took years, but we took a declining air traffic control staffing number and we finally got it growing.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I also wanted to ask you, I mean, you served yourself as a reservist, as a Navy Reserve officer, and I mentioned this earlier, there's a memo that doesn't have a lot of details, but it basically suggests that the Secretary of Defense wants to cut a minimum of 20% of the number of four star generals and admirals on active duty, a corresponding number of generals in the National Guard. This seems to be at a time where having a strong military is. It's always important. But what do you, how do you think about those cuts in terms of how they could impact our military preparedness? And of course, the men and women serving out there, what you want to.

[Wes Moore]

Know is that they're being done for a good reason. Any time there's restructuring and change and look, every secretary should consider restructuring and change whatever is presented to them because you need to keep up with the times. But time and time again, when they've changed an agency, blown up an agency or fired people, it seems to be either highly political or totally random. Right. We saw this with a lot of the early Doge firings where they didn't even pretend that they were going through and checking who was good at their job and who was bad at their job. They just fired a bunch of people because they could. And that happened everywhere from the FAA to the people who were in charge of securing our nuclear weapons. Then they scrambled to hire them back. So I think the American public has a pretty low level of conflic confidence right now that this is being done in a rational way. There's nothing in principle wrong with shaking up an org chart, right? That's part of what you do when you take over any organization. But what we need and deserve is some level of confidence that frankly that they know what they're doing.

[Pete Buttigieg]

You know what it's like to come into an agency where you have to learn a lot where you have to respect all of the expertise, where you have to value classified information. I mean, this isn't the first controversy, scandal, self inflicted one that Pete Hegseth has been a part of. What had been going through your head as you've watched him operate over the last couple of months. And you're seeing him leading one of the most important agencies in the federal government.

[Wes Moore]

This is one of the most important jobs of anybody in the human species leading the US Department of Defense, the largest organization and the most important organization really in the United States of America. And you need to know what you're doing. And when we see things like randomly sending incredibly sensitive information to the wrong people or any of the other things that are going on, it raises concerns and it raises more concerns because it's part of a pattern, right? So you got the Secretary of Defense playing fast and loose with classified information. You've got the Secretary of Education saying that we need to make sure kids are trained in something she calls A1, which means she doesn't understand that it's AI, which means she doesn't understand artificial intelligence, everyone. I love A1 steak sauce, but A1 steak sauce is not one of the most important things confronting humanity right now. Artificial intelligence is. And somebody who doesn't understand that probably should not be leading an important federal agency.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Well said. We have a lot more to talk about, including politics, the future of the Democratic Party. Pete Buttigieg, you're sticking right with me for one more block. I appreciate you and we want to talk about how you've been showing up in surprising places and what that's all about too. I have so many more questions. We'll be right back.

[David Frost]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime anywhere.

[Pete Buttigieg]

All the stories that we're covering are live and happening as.

[David Frost]

Watch your favorite shows live.

[Pete Buttigieg]

What's happening right now is a hostile takeover of the US Government.

[David Frost]

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app.

[Pete Buttigieg]

We are back with former Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg as promised. And we're talking about a lot of politics, so let me just start. There's been, to state the obvious, a ton of conversations about the future of the Democratic Party. You've been about a part of a lot of them. I think this is a really healthy thing that's happening right now. And I wanted to read you something Senator Bernie Sanders said this week that I think you probably agree with, but I just wanted to talk to you more about it. He said, the American people, I think, not only want resistance to Trump, but I think they want what the Democratic Party in the last many years has not given them. And that is an agenda that speaks to the needs of the working class, because it's not good enough. Now, you may not agree with all of that. We should talk about this. Sounds to me, though, a little. I'm old enough to remember when you ran for the chair of the DNC and you made kind of a similar point. You've been kind of saying something similar. So I guess, what does that look like to you?

[Wes Moore]

I think this is really correct. Look, we have got to make sure that our opposition and everything that we're against, and obviously there is a lot to be passionately against right now, but it has to travel with a clearer picture of what we are for, because there are a lot of voters who, for whatever reason, and Democrats might be shocked by this, but for whatever reason, did not find any of the things they've seen so far about Donald Trump to be disqualifying. And what that means is there's something else that doesn't mean they necessarily loved him, but they need to see something more. This is not a question of accommodating things that we don't agree with or watering down or changing our values. It is a question of making very clear to everybody how your everyday life is different if we're in charge compared to if they're in charge. What your life could be like if wages went up the way that we propose that they be raised, what we would do with the money if we successfully stop the tax cuts for the wealthy that are at the core of Donald Trump's economic agenda, what we think could happen in a country where we had paid family leave and some of the unfinished business of fixing our health care system. It's not just a matter of preserving the Affordable Care Act. It's as important as that is, it's going the next step to make sure everybody can get and afford health care. All of these things that need to happen, that needs to be as clear a picture as our response to the authoritarian tendencies of this administration. Because the truth is, proto authoritarian governments don't just come out of nowhere. We would not be in this situation if the government, the economy and the politics of our country were healthy. They've been unhealthy for a long time. I think everybody knows that. And if we seem like, if my party seems like it's calling for A return to the status quo from before that will be both substantively wrong and politically it will fail.

[Pete Buttigieg]

The other part of that there's been some, again, healthy debate about is, you know, is it a policy question? Is it a messaging question? Is it a where you appear question? You've talked about all three of these. Let me just start with the policy question. Do you think the policies of the Democratic Party, the party you've been a part of, need to be more ambitious and bigger than what we've seen over the last couple of years?

[Wes Moore]

In some ways, yes. Look, the fact that income inequality has grown under Republican and Democratic administrations tells us there's more that needs to be done there. And the fact that it is so hard to build and do things in this country, and I lived this when I was at the Department of transportation. We got 20,000 infrastructure projects done, but we could have done more if it were easier to complete the things that we start in this country and we could have done it more efficiently with our dollar. There's a lot of work that needs to be done there, too. So, yes, there are substantive policy things that we need to revisit for the simple reason that so many of the systems that we inherited that we, meaning progressives, built after World War II, are now confronting a reality in what's coming up to be the second quarter of the 21st century that's just so, so different than the world we were in. But as ruthlessly as we need to leave behind anything that's not working, we need to relentlessly defend anything that is, whether we're talking about Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, or any of the other core commitments that make us who we are.

[Pete Buttigieg]

As a part of this. I mean, you've also talked a little bit about how we can't fight every battle. You can describe what you mean by this, and I agree with this, and I understand what you're saying. You have to prioritize what you're emphasizing publicly. A lot of what you just said to me was about domestic issues, things that impact people's lives who are just living day to day. What are the battles you think shouldn't be a part of the public fight that Democrats are fighting right now?

[Wes Moore]

Look, I think the legal strategy is different from the political strategy. Both are important. So some of the most important setbacks and defeats of the Trump White House have been fighting it out on turf that maybe hasn't been as politically strong for us. Take usaid, which, by the way, to be clear, I passionately believe in the mission of USAID and I believe that the right kind of development aid in foreign aid is both morally right and strategically smart. But look, I get that that may not. There's a reason why they picked that as one of the first agencies to destroy knowing that a lot of Americans are sitting at home saying, you know, what does this have to do with. But they also very clearly violated, at least in my opinion, violated a lot of laws when they did that. And some of the legal opposition that stood up in response to that demonstrated that he can, in fact, be stopped. So, look, a political strategy and a legal strategy aren't always the same thing. But what's really important about the legal work that's being done, the fights that are happening in the courts, whether it's on comfortable political ground or not, is that they establish that they can be stopped and they establish, when they're actually acting outside of the rule of law, some of the free speech issues. Look, we may or may not disagree with an op ed that a student writes or protests everything said at a protest that they attended. But what I know is that in this country, you should not be stuffed into a van or picked up off the street or thrown into detention because of an op ed you wrote or a protest you showed up ever. That's just a fundamental. And by the way, the libertarians and the conservatives should be in lockstep with progressives on this. That, that is just wrong.

[Pete Buttigieg]

No question about that. I have a lot of thoughts on free speech. I suspect I will be sharing on this show in the coming weeks. Pete Buttigieg, it's always a pleasure talking to you. You always say interesting things and I can talk to you about so many things. So thank you so much for being here for our first 9pm show. I really appreciate it.

[Wes Moore]

Thanks for having me. Congratulations on the premiere.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Thank you. Coming up, Maryland Governor Wes Moore is going to join me live. I'm going to tell talk to him about activism, pushing back on the Trump administration and what the heck is going on with Social Security right now. But first, Republicans continue to engage in what I'm just going to call performative patriotism as brand new reporting sheds light on a VA that is failing real patriots. I've got some thoughts about that. I'm going to talk about it when we come back. Donald Trump and his allies love, and I mean love to lecture Americans about what it means to be patriotic. They get to define it. That's how they see it. It's become pretty clear by now that their brand of patriotism is based primarily on what I would call performative things. I mean, just consider what they've been focused on over the last few weeks. In the House, Republicans advanced a bill to officially rename the Gulf of Mexico as the Gulf of America. It's an accomplishment, I'm putting in quotes, because they're touting it, that Republican Speaker Mike Johnson even took a moment to tout on social media, probably more pressing matters that the House could tackle, don't you think? But sure, I guess tout it. Now, over at the White House, Trump has been busy redecorating, putting his personal touch on pretty much everything. Talk about some of it. Today, he's actually scouting the north and south lawns for a place to put two new flagpoles that he says will be nearly 100ft tall. Trump told reporters that he was installing them because, quote, they've needed flagpoles for 200 years. I mean, have they really? Of course, we also know that the Trump administration is planning a military parade in Washington, D.C. for June 14th. That's the 200th 50th anniversary of the U.S. army. Also happens to be Donald Trump's birthday. Now, you might remember that Trump tried to hold a military parade during his first term. Remember that? But those plans were curtailed over the cost and concern, of course, that military vehicles like tanks would damage the streets of D.C. of course they would. I mean, apparently, I guess those are not considered problems this time around. I don't know. According to officials, the early estimate also puts the cost of Trump's parade at as much as $45 million. So, yeah, it's a lot of costly pageantry, I guess I could call it. Look at our newly labeled maps, our new giant hundred foot flag poles and the White House lawn, the tanks rolling down the streets of D.C. what about the kind of patriotism that goes beyond the public displays? The kind of patriotism that demonstrates, you know, actual solidarity with your fellow Americans? When you look for that kind of patriotism, Donald Trump and Republican leadership are woefully lacking. Now, there are a lot of places to highlight here. Maybe we'll talk about it more in the future, like, say, Trump's dramatic cuts to things like public health, disaster relief, food banks. But I just want to focus right now on the Department of Veterans Affairs. This serves people who have been serving our country. Take a look at these photos obtained by the New York Times. Since Trump overturned remote work arrangements for federal employees. These are some of the cramped office spaces that VA mental health physicians have had to use while providing teletherapy to veterans. It has, of course, led to a dramatic lack of privacy for veterans seeking mental health care, which clinicians have said is limiting the effectiveness of the treatment. Of course it is. Those conditions are also pushing some providers to quit or to retire early. And that's all happening at a moment when the VA is already facing severe shortages of psychologists and psychiatrists who are serving veterans around the country. This isn't even mentioning the effect of Trump's cuts to the VA. According to internal VA emails obtained by ProPublica, the cuts are jeopardizing veterans care, including to life saving cancer trials. And that damage to life saving care is coming before the Trump administration goes through with its plan to eliminate at least 70,000 of the 500,000 employees who work at the agency, most of whom work in VA hospitals or VA clinics. So you want to be patriotic. I mean, we should be all for that. How about less focus on maps and flag poles and parades and more on providing quality care for the people who actually serve the country? Because despite what Trump and MAGA World, I guess, thinks patriotism isn't about simple displays. Which means that Democrats also have an opportunity to push for a deeper definition of patriotism. Well, during his commencement address at Lincoln University on Sunday, Maryland Governor Westmore presented his own version.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Our country is just deeply divided right now into these two camps. But it's not left versus right. It's not red versus blue. It's a divide between those who will use patriotism as a club to be others and a divide of those who feel ashamed to bear the flag between those who think that loving America means hating half of the people in it, and those who allow the cynicism of our nation's history to obscure our aspirations.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Maryland Governor Wes Morris standing by. And he joins me next. Over the past few months, we have seen a tremendous surge of activism. Rachel Maddow's been covering it so closely, as have some others. I mean, everyday Americans taking to the streets week after week after week in some surprising places to protest against the actions of the Trump administration. There have been protests against Trump's immigration policy, his tariff hikes, the broad dismantling of government agencies like Social Security, and of course, the mass firing of government employees. This weekend, we saw a demonstration in Washington, D.C. in support of those who've been indiscriminately laid off. And today, a group of fired federal workers staged a sit in. You can see it right there on the steps of the US Capitol. Of course, these protests are not at all limited to D.C. as you've seen those of you who have been watching this show for the last hundred days. As more than 80% also of the federal workforce lives outside of our nation's capital, federal workers are everywhere, including in places like Maryland, where 1 out of every 10 workers is a federal employee. Joining me now is the Democratic governor of Maryland, Wes Moore. Governor, it is great to see you. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me tonight. I really appreciate it.

[Governor Wes Moore]

I really appreciate it. And congratulations.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Thank you so much. I wanted to start. I just played a clip of your speech this week, and I encourage everybody to watch the whole thing. We played a clip of it there. I mean, in some ways, peaceful protesting, I think, is one of the most patriotic things a citizen can do. Peaceful protesting. And over the weekend, when you talked about patriotism at Lincoln University in Pennsylvania, you talked about reclaiming it. It reclaiming it as something that you and others and Democrats and others, people who were just out there, average citizens, can reclaim. I wonder what you thought as you're watching these protests that have happened over the last couple of months, happened in your states. Do you think that's part of reclaiming patriotism?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I do. And it's actually been really inspiring seeing people who are willing to step up and fight not just for their rights, but also fight for their freedoms and to fight for their legacy. Because I do think there's been a larger bastardization of this term patriotism. Well, somehow patriotism means thinking your country is perfect. That's not patriotism. Patriotism is being willing, is being willing to be part of a solution to make your country that more perfect union that those founding fathers hope for. And I'm watching people who are out there and pushing back against these type of policies that are actually pushing back against the type of progress we have made. You know, in our state, in Maryland, we have folks on making sure that we're protecting our seniors. We focus on things like prescription drug, being sure prescription drugs are more affordable, and they're doing things like cutting Social Security. You know, we focus on making sure we're addressing things like violent crime. We've had some of the most historic drops in violent crime anywhere in the entire country. And what they're doing is they're cutting funding to violence prevention programs. And so we are seeing how people are standing up and they're reclaiming not just this idea of patriotism, but reclaiming the idea of what makes America so great and so extraordinary in the first place.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I talked a little bit about in the last block about this performative patriotism. As I called it, which is spending money on costly parades, putting up hundred foot flag poles. There's a lot of ways to reclaim it. And you talked about this a lot. You and I have talked about this before. For people who are out there and even from a political sense, for Democrats, how do they kind of reclaim it? Is it drawing the contrast? Is it not being afraid to talk about it? How should they do it?

[Governor Wes Moore]

It, I think it has to be authentic. And I think you have to know that the beauty of this country is that this country is still an unfinished model. You know, I think about where I got my first understanding of patriotism was from the person I talked about when I spoke at Lincoln University this past weekend, which is my grandfather, who was a 1946 graduate of Lincoln University, who was born in the United States. And when he was just a toddler, it was the Ku Klux Klan that ran my family out of the country. And most of my family, to include my great grandfather, always pledged to never come back to this country. And he never did. But my grandfather did. He went to Lincoln University, he became a minister, and he raised his family with a love of country and a love of God. And this is a person who had a deep Jamaican accent his entire life and was maybe the most patriotic American I've ever met because he believed that this country will be incomplete without him. And that is what I think patriotism is all about. Being willing to sacrifice on behalf of this country, not because it's perfect, but because of its incompleteness, can actually be fulfilled if you're willing to actually put in the work. And that's what I think we're seeing people do right now. And that's what's so exciting, to see Americans who are mobilized and who understand what is happening right now with this administration is not right, it is not American. And we have to be able to fight for our values.

[Pete Buttigieg]

One of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you tonight, and I always am excited to talk to you, is that you make a lot of sense about the contrast that needs to be drawn between Democrats and the current administration. And we've seen a lot of reporting. There's been a ton of reporting even this week about the Trump family's money making operations. This is important because. Because being susceptible to corruption means it impacts the decisions you make. And I think you agree with this because you just signed a law that effectively makes you and every Maryland governor that succeeds you for the future divest from your businesses and put your assets in a blind trust. I know why this is important. I think everybody watching knows why this is important. But for people who have governors who haven't done this yet, what should they know about why this is important for other governors to do across the country?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yeah, I'm really proud that Maryland is now amongst the first, if not the first state in the country to now pass a law that puts such guardrails on its chief executive. And I think it is important because you're right. At a time when we have a president of the United States who is selling bitcoin, at a time when we have members of Congress who in all of their free time are actually trading stocks, at a time when we have a government contractor who is now being put in charge of government contracts. As a special government employee, I can understand why people have such a measure of frustration about Washington politics and Washington politicians and do not feel that their interests are being the ones that are heard. And even in the state of Maryland, where we saw, you know, former governors who were making millions of dollars while they were governor, literally giving away contracts in places that they owned, real estate values for them or their families, this law, what it now says is from now on, from here on out, for a person to run for the governor of Maryland, you had better not run because you think this is a get rich scheme. Run because you believe in the people. Run because you're going to fight for the people and you're willing to be transparent about your votes and how your votes are not just going to impact the people who you are representing, but how it's how you think it's going to impact you as well. So we're really proud that Maryland, that I was proud to sign this law because I think it does help to set a standard about how we think about governmental ethics as a whole.

[Pete Buttigieg]

You're going to be relieved to only have 30 seconds left because I have to ask you before you go, you were recently on the View. The ladies of the View were sighing when you said you are not running for president. I noticed. Use the present tense. So you're telling me, I think there's a zero percent chance. Is there a zero percent chance you were jumping in, in the race in 2028? Can people keep some hope out there who are interested in more of what you have to say?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I mean, listen, I appreciate the fact that people are excited about what we're seeing in Maryland. We've gone from 43rd in the country in unemployment to now having amongst the lowest unemployment rates in the entire country for 14 straight months. We have amongst the fastest drop in violent crime anywhere in America. The last time the homicide rate was this low in Baltimore City, I literally was not born yet that we've been able to have the largest mass pardon of cannabis convictions anywhere in the history of the country. We have a state in the country that has a service year option for all of our high school graduates. Like Maryland is moving. And I also know that anyone who is talking about 2028 right now is not taking 2025 seriously. Like we have a direct assault on our Constitution. We have a President of the United States who frankly is using the Constitution like it's a suggestion box. We have to take this moment seriously and that's exactly what we're doing in the state of Maryland and why I'm really proud of the progress we've been.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Able to had to try. Governor Westmore, always love talking to you. Thank you so much. And we'll be right back after a quick break. I just wanted to end tonight by saying thank you for spending the hour with us. We are going to be here four nights a week to read the fine print, which I will do. Dig into the things that people currently in power may not want us to talk about. That of course means calling out lies, incompetence and cruelty when we see it. One thing I've learned over the years is that you can never cower to bullies and I have no intention to do that. We'll be here to talk with the people who are speaking out as we did tonight, who are using every lever of power possible to push back. I don't know about you, but I feel pretty hopeful listening to Pete Buttigieg and Wes Moore tonight. And I want to spend time talking to people like that. That won't always mean politicians and lawmakers and people here in Washington, because I know there are people all around you in every corner of the country trying to make a difference in so many different ways. And we want to tell those stories too. I hope this is a place where you can come to figure out what's really going on both in your communities and here in the town where every day decisions are being made that definitely impact your life. We'll see you back here tomorrow night at 9pm Eastern. Governor Tim Walz and Senator Raphael Warnock will be my guest.

[David Frost]

Sir David Frost gave us an intimate look at some of the most compelling personalities of our time.

[Chris Hayes]

What makes people tick fascinates me. You can't fake interest. You can't fake curiosity.

[David Frost]

MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series David Frost versus On the Next Episode, Jane Fonda.

[Pete Buttigieg]

The war is being escalated in the most tragic, cruel way.

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Sunday at 9:00pm Eastern on MSNBC.