Psaki: Trump becomes a parody of himself as corruption and bad taste become hallmarks of his regime

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode Title: Psaki: Trump becomes a parody of himself as corruption and bad taste become hallmarks of his regime
Date: October 24, 2025
Host: Jen Psaki, MSNBC

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Overview

In this episode, Jen Psaki dissects the latest controversies surrounding Donald Trump’s presidency, focusing on recent acts of alleged corruption, self-interest, and spectacle—including the demolition of the White House East Wing for a ballroom, an eyebrow-raising crypto pardon, and increasingly audacious political maneuvers. Psaki is joined by Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, Congressman Ro Khanna, legal analyst Andrew Weissman, and features clips and commentary from Nicole Wallace. The conversation threads together the week’s news to illustrate a thesis: Trump’s regime, beset by bad taste and rampant self-dealing, verges on self-parody. Yet, Psaki underscores, these dangers are not to be underestimated—and there are signs of effective resistance.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Trump as Self-Parody and the Destruction of the East Wing

• Opening Analogy: Psaki opens with a flashback to the 2011 White House Correspondents Dinner, when Obama joked about Trump garishly renovating the White House—a joke that's come eerily true.
  • Quote:
    “Trump is literally making himself the punchline of a 14 year old joke. A joke about what might happen if a narcissistic real estate developer with horrible taste became the President of the United States.” – Jen Psaki (03:13)
• White House Ballroom Fiasco: Trump’s demolition of the historical East Wing for a personal ballroom is highlighted as an emblem of his disregard for public property and tradition.
  • Psaki stresses the lack of Congressional, legal, or public approval for this egotistical project.
  • “He’s proving once again that he remains kind of a captive of the very stereotype that’s made him a target of ridicule... He just can’t seem to help himself. And in that way, Donald Trump himself is a joke, a walking, talking parody of himself.” – Jen Psaki (03:41)

2. Illustrations of Corruption: The Binance Pardon and Crypto Entanglements

• The CZ Zhao Pardon: Trump pardoned Changpeng Zhao, founder of Binance, convicted for enabling crypto to fund terror, child abuse, and drugs.
  • Quote:
    “It’s an outrageous move, made all the more outrageous by the fact that the company he founded has major business ties to the Trump family’s own crypto venture.” – Jen Psaki (03:23)
  • Ro Khanna calls this “blatant corruption,” noting even pro-Trump tech leaders are embarrassed.
    “It's so bad that Joe Lonsdale, one of Trump’s biggest supporters in tech, says, I am embarrassed by it.” – Ro Khanna (34:44)
• Quid Pro Quo Allegations: The pardon followed Binance investments into the Trump family’s stablecoin and additional business with UAE, linking foreign investment, private gain, and official acts.
  • Psaki details how Trump's post-reelection wealth now largely derives from opaque crypto deals.

3. Democratic and Institutional Pushback

• Jack Smith’s Public Challenge: Special counsel Jack Smith, targeted by Trump and congressional allies, flips the script—offering to testify only in open public hearings.
  • Weissman deems this strategically brilliant for sunlight:
    • “I thought it was incredibly smart to say, you know what, if you want to hear from me, that’s fine, but everyone in the public needs to hear from me.” – Andrew Weissman (24:09)
• Governors & Legislators Fight Back:
  • Gov. Gavin Newsom and Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker lead state-level resistance:
    • Newsom calls Trump “weakness masquerading as strength.” (06:43)
    • Pritzker establishes a task force to document ICE’s unlawful activities for future prosecution.
• Ballot Box Battles and Redistricting:
  • With Republicans gerrymandering, Democrats strike back at the state level (CA Prop 50, Virginia’s redistricting plans), targeting critical elections in 11 days.

4. Gretchen Whitmer on Engaging Red America and Democratic Messaging

• Direct Voter Engagement: Whitmer prioritizes visiting “red” counties post-2024, training candidates, and showing up where Democrats aren’t expected.
  • “Listening and engaging and showing up where people don’t expect us to show up is how we make sure we stay focused...and how we win elections.” – Gretchen Whitmer (14:09)
• Economic Reality vs. Trump’s Spectacle: Whitmer observes voters are far more concerned with feeding their families than with White House renovations.
  • “No one is worried about building a ballroom in Washington, D.C. What they want is to make sure that they can feed their kids next week.” – Gretchen Whitmer (15:52)
• Navigating Trump’s Attacks and State-Federal Conflict:
  • Whitmer highlights cooperative government, staying focused on tangible outcomes (“filling potholes”), and defending state interests.

5. Press Briefing Parody: Trump’s Lack of Transparency and Accountability

• Psaki parodies the daily White House press briefing, lampooning Press Secretary Caroline Levitt’s evasiveness about the East Wing demolition, the Binance pardon, and lack of healthcare solutions.
  • “He didn’t notify the public because Trump does not think the White House belongs to the people... he thinks it is his house.” – Jen Psaki (39:56)
• Highlights legal loopholes Trump exploited and the broken norm of transparency.

6. Congressional Evasion over Trump’s DOJ Shakedown

• Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House, dodges media questions for three straight days about Trump demanding $230 million from DOJ.
  • Psaki mocks Johnson’s evasive responses, emphasizing the lack of accountability.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump as a Parody:
  “Authoritarian leaders can become so caught up in projecting their own power that their levels of blatant public corruption just get more laughable as they go.” – Jen Psaki (03:55)

• On Democratic Resistance:
  “He is, as I said over and over, nothing more than weakness masquerading as strength.” – Gavin Newsom (06:43)

• Whitmer on Direct Voter Contact:
  “Your party is not talking to the middle class. We need help. My health care costs are going up.” – Recounting a constituent (14:09)

• Khanna on the Crypto Pardon:
  “Basically, for supporting that, Trump stablecoin has bought himself a pardon. It is so bad that...Trump's biggest supporters in tech say, I am embarrassed by it.” (34:44)

• Weissman on Jack Smith's Move:
  “This is someone saying...I think your constituents should see it. It seems like a very hard thing...to say, no, no, no, we only want to do it behind closed doors.” (27:53)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening/White House Correspondents Dinner callback: 01:00 – 03:00
• East Wing Demolition and Trump Self-Parody: 03:00 – 04:30
• Binance Pardon and Corruption Details: 04:30 – 08:00, 29:30 – 36:00
• Democratic Pushback and Ballot Strategies: 06:36 – 10:57
• Interview: Governor Gretchen Whitmer: 12:05 – 20:41
• Andrew Weissman on Jack Smith Testimony: 23:33 – 29:28
• Ro Khanna on Congressional Oversight and Crypto Corruption: 33:44 – 38:13
• Psaki’s “Press Briefing” Skit on Trump Renovations: 39:29 – 41:06
• Mike Johnson Ducking DOJ Shakedown Questions: 43:10 – 44:23

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Tone & Style

• The episode maintains a sharp, acerbic tone—balancing outrage with satire.
• Psaki and her guests mix policy expertise with sarcasm, often highlighting the absurdity of current events.
• The mood is gravely concerned but optimistic about resistance and organizing—“an all hands on deck moment.”

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Conclusion & Takeaways

Psaki weaves together a narrative of a regime mired in ostentation and graft, but emphasizes both the seriousness of the threats and the efficacy of outspoken, organized resistance. The episode is both warning and rallying cry: even as Trump grows into the caricature painted by his critics, only by confronting his corruption directly—and with transparency—can democracy endure.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode:
This episode is an urgent, detail-rich exploration of how Trump’s latest acts—demolishing the White House’s East Wing for a personal ballroom, gifting pardons for personal gain, and pursuing retribution against foes—signal not strength but deepening vulnerability and self-parody. At the same time, the episode highlights meaningful Democratic strategies—legal, electoral, and rhetorical—for standing up to the ongoing challenges presented by Trump's regime.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Podcast Narrator/Announcer]

MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, she sits down with former White House Communications director Anthony Scaramucci.

[Nicole Wallace]

We are a beautiful, colorful mosaic of people, and we are exactly what Lincoln said, the last best hope for mankind.

[Podcast Narrator/Announcer]

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[Jen Psaki]

Okay, so we're gonna get to Governor Whitmer in a moment. I'm really looking forward to talking to her, hearing what she's hearing out in the country as she's visiting red districts across the country. But first, I want to take you Back to the 2011 White House Correspondents Dinner. Yes, that one. You know, the Correspondents Dinner. It's the annual Washington tradition, kind of a weird one where the president, members of the press get together, maybe they have a few drinks, they tell a few jokes at each other's expense. But in 2011, the dinner was especially notable because that was the year that Barack Obama got up and absolutely roasted Donald Trump. And there was one joke from that night that I think has a certain resonance today.

[Andrew Weissman]

Say what you will about Mr. Trump, he certainly would bring some change to the White House.

[Ro Khanna]

Let's see what we've got up there.

[Jen Psaki]

He does not look thrilled, but that was then President Barack Obama imagining what felt at the time like a completely crazy, bananas universe. An alternate one where Trump becomes president and renovates the White House to look like one of his tacky hotels and casinos. Now, this was, of course, before AI so someone at the White House had to actually draw up that ridiculous image, you see. But now, of course, we are living in that crazy, wacky alternate universe that Obama conjured up that night a long time ago. By now, you've seen the images of Donald Trump's construction crews tearing down the entire east wing of the White House to make room for a gaudy new ballroom Trump plans to build in its place. As of today, the historic east wing of the White House that stood for a century that has so much history is completely gone. And it can be frustrating way more than that. Absolutely infuriating to watch Trump destroy a building that belongs to all of us without approval from Congress, from really anyone, just because he feels like it. But in doing so, Trump is literally making himself the punchline of a 14 year old joke. A joke about what might happen if a narcissistic real estate developer with horrible taste became the President of the United States. He's proving once again that he remains kind of a captive of the very stereotype that's made him a target of ridicule like that for so many years. He just can't seem to help himself. And in that way, Donald Trump himself is a joke, a walking, talking parody of himself. Just look at the Oval Office there. That's not to say his actions in office aren't dangerous. They absolutely are. But here's the thing. Authoritarian leaders can become so caught up in projecting their own power that their levels of blatant public corruption just get more laughable as they go. I mean, let me give you an example. Today, Donald Trump pardoned the head of a cryptocurrency exchange who was convicted after he allowed criminals to use his platform to finance everything from child sex abuse to drug trafficking to terrorism. This is a horrible guy. It's an outrageous move, made all the more outrageous by the fact that the company he founded has major business ties to the Trump family's own crypto venture. And when Trump was asked about it today, he lashed out in his own typical Trumpy way.

[Gretchen Whitmer]

Today you pardoned the founder of Binance. Can you explain why you chose to pardon him?

[Jen Psaki]

And did it have anything to do with his involvement in your.

[Podcast Narrator/Announcer]

Which one?

[Ro Khanna]

Who is that? Are you talking about the crypto person?

[Gretchen Whitmer]

Yes.

[Ro Khanna]

A lot of people say that he wasn't guilty of anything. He served four months in jail, and they say that he was not guilty of anything that what he did. Well, you don't know much about crypto. You know nothing about. You know nothing about nothing, you fake news.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay, so just to recap, the company this guy founded has been campaigning for a pardon for about a year. It then delivered a massive investment in the Trump family crypto business. Trump then gave him a pardon, which is something he would have had to sign. And yet Trump still behaves like he has no idea who he is. Then Trump claims this guy was not guilty of anything, which is equally ludicrous because he pleaded guilty to the crimes. And look, recognizing the absurdity of that, definitely doesn't minimize the danger of Donald Trump. It minimizes Trump himself. It exposes him for the small man that he is. And it makes it easier to think about and figure out and plan how to push back against his corruption. So now a number of Trump's opponents are showing that it isn't so hard to stand up to an insecure bully. I mean, ever since retaking office, Trump and his allies in Congress have been targeting special counsel Jack Smith. It's been relentless investigating him, trying to paint him as some kind of devious criminal. Today, Jack Smith punched back, sending a letter to Congress saying, quote, Mr. Smith respectfully requests the opportunity to testify in open hearings before the House and Senate Judiciary Committees. In other words, Jack Smith is saying, let's have this fight, and we're gonna do it in public. He's calling their bluff because he knows that what he can expose about Trump is far worse than anything they can do to him. And we're seeing that same kind of fight from Democratic governors who are making the bet that it pays to stand up to Trump. I mean, here was California Governor Gavin Newsom just last night, talking about Trump's attempt to shake down his own Justice Department.

[Nicole Wallace]

This guy is trying to dial up for $230 million of your money.

[Andrew Weissman]

To.

[Nicole Wallace]

Pad his pockets after using your money to the extent you ever supported him, his campaign money to pay for his legal defense, and now take the money personally, because somehow he's entitled to it. Just like he thinks he's entitled to seats in Congress, like he's entitled to wreck the White House, the People's House, to put in a vulgar display of weakness with gilded tones, to deal with his own insecurities and inadequacies. He is, as I said over and over, nothing more than weakness masquerading as strength.

[Jen Psaki]

Weakness masquerading as strength. That's what this is all about. And Governor Newsom is not the only one calling him out on that. Illinois Governor JB Pritzker just announced that he is creating a new task force to document and track all of ICE's unlawful activities in his state so that they can be criminally prosecuted in the future. He said Congress has abdicated its oversight role, so he's stepping in.

[Nicole Wallace]

His MAGA allies in Congress have enthusiastically ignored or. Or approved of it. No hearings, no oversight, no checks and balances. And while states have limited abilities against federal immunity, we must remind everyone that this is not forever. There will come a time where people of good faith are empowered to uphold the law. When the time comes, Illinois will have the testimony and the records needed to pursue justice to its fullest extent.

[Jen Psaki]

Again, these are all very different but very effective ways of dealing with the bully. I mean, here's another. Just today, Trump backed off of his threats to send National Guard troops into the city of San Francisco after just one call with San Francisco's Democratic mayor. And while it still remains to be seen what will happen in that city, the president has already blinked. He's shown that he will back down. Democrats can also clearly sense that, too, and in so many different ways, they feel emboldened to go on offense as well. I mean, for weeks, the White House has been lobbying Republican states to redraw their congressional maps and to give Republicans a big advantage in the midterms. Trump's tactics have succeeded in a few states, like Texas and recently this week in North Carolina. But Democrats in California are, of course, pushing back with Prop 50, giving voters a chance to stand up to Trump by voting to redraw their state maps to counter what Republicans did in Texas. And that's not the only place where this is going on. I mean, after a relentless pressure campaign From Trump and J.D. vance, Republicans in Indiana still don't have the votes to redraw maps there and steal more seats. Activists in Missouri are working to make sure that voters have a chance to overrule any new maps in that state at the ballot box. And check this out. Just today, Democrats in Virginia said they are launching a plan to redraw maps there, too, potentially netting Democrats three new seats in Congress. That makes an election in 11 days all the more important. But luckily for Democrats, Donald Trump is hugely unpopular in the state. In fact, a new poll out today finds him underwater by more than 12 points in Virginia. And Virginia Democrats are expected to expand their power when Election Day comes. So, yes, and this is important not to minimize, he is cruel and he is very corrupt. He's knocking down the White House for a ballroom, and he's shaking down American taxpayers and pardoning a crypto CEO who has been a huge proponent of his own crypto business. All of that is true. All of that is insane. But he is weak. He's not strong. And he is growing more and more unpopular. He's become a version of his own, a joke about himself. And Democrats know it. They know that it pays to stand up to him. Look, this is an all hands on deck moment. We all know that. And the hands are growing in numbers literally by the hour. Governor Gretchen Whitmer is another Democrat with a very big national profile who's using her voice in a very interesting way. She joins me in just 90 seconds.

[Podcast Narrator/Announcer]

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Jen Psaki]

As promised. Joining me now is Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. Governor Whitmer, it's great to see you. Thank you for taking the time today.

[Gretchen Whitmer]

Good to be with you, Jed.

[Jen Psaki]

Obviously, Democrats with a national profile like yours are navigating this moment in all sorts of different ways. I mean, some are punching back in the media, some are filing lawsuits. You've been going around the country to places where Donald Trump won big in 2024, places where maybe they don't see Democrats all the time. Places like Jefferson County, Wisconsin and Dade County, Florida. Lots of others too. Tell me more about why you're choosing to use your big national profile like this.

[Gretchen Whitmer]

Well, I gotta tell you, after the last election, I kind of went to a dark place and had to check out for a little while. And then eventually I said, you know what, I've got two years left as governor and I got a lot that I want to get accomplished. Doing my job in a purple, leading a purple state is, it's a big, it takes a lot of energy and it's my primary focus. But I also am recruiting and helping train candidates who want to run and campaign managers. I know having won a state like Michigan by double digits, that you gotta go everywhere and listen and ask people what's going on. And I think, you know, when I get into Jefferson County, Wisconsin, or I'm in Dade county in Florida, or I'm in New Jersey, those are great opportunities for me to make sure we are focused on the right things as a party.

[Jen Psaki]

I can't imagine, because I know you're training candidates, you're talking to people, you're also Talking to voters in these places. Right. And I can't imagine that folks in those places are all thrilled with the way things are going right now. I guess they wouldn't show up necessarily to an event with you if they were. I mean, healthcare premiums are about to skyrocket unless Congress does something about it, as you know. Well, if the government shutdown isn't resolved soon, starting next week, tens of millions of Americans may not get their full food assistance benefits. I know something you've also been thinking about so many things. My point is that the administration is doing is hitting Trump voters and voters in a lot of these red counties the hardest. How aware are people you're coming into contact with about what's happening or what's about to happen?

[Gretchen Whitmer]

They're very aware. And, you know, that's why we gotta show up and we gotta talk and we gotta show what Democratic governors in particular have done. You know, in Michigan, when I can talk about feeding 1.4 million kids breakfast and lunch every day, when I can remind people that when you get a Democratic governor, you get retirement tax relief like we got done here in Michigan. Relief for people who work overtime so you don't have to pay taxes on it anymore. This is how we put money in people's pockets. And that is first and foremost what's on people's minds as they show up at our events. These are labor folks who did not vote for Democrats in the last election. These are the guy who works at a bar when I was in Wisconsin, who came around the bar and said, your party is not talking to the middle class. We need help. My health care costs are going up. I think that listening and engaging and showing up where people don't expect us to show up is how we make sure we stay focused on what matters in and how we win elections. And that's what we've done in Michigan, and that's what we've got to do all across the country, because I think we've got a powerful story to tell and a vision that helps people in this country. But how are they ever going to know about it if we're not showing up?

[Jen Psaki]

And they don't think people care? They didn't think people necessarily care. This is a different approach I think other people are doing. It's a smart one. Let me ask you about this kind of insane split screen we're seeing right now. And you're seeing, of course, from your vantage point. I mean, Donald Trump is literally destroying the White House to build a $300 million ballroom which is insane. And this is happening while the shutdown is leaving so many workers without pay and critical benefits. I just wonder from your vantage point as a governor of a state, what are you making of that split screen?

[Gretchen Whitmer]

Well, as I have talked to people, I'm telling you right now, no one is worried about building a ballroom in Washington, D.C. what they want is to make sure that they can feed their kids next week. And the longer the sh shutdown goes, the more precarious it gets for people. And obviously a lot of people are already struggling because of it. You know, one of the things that we did here is I stayed at the table. Our budget negotiations went 24 7, practically the final weeks of getting it done. We had to go two days with a continuing resolution essentially here in Michigan. But we stayed at the table. A Republican, House, Democratic Senate and me, we stayed at the table and we got it done. And I think that's what people need and want to see, leaders who are actually focused on solving problems and making their lives better, not on other issues that are never going to impact them. The average person in this country is never going to step foot in a ballroom over the course of their lifetime. But what they do every single day is try to feed their kids, make sure that they got a job to show up to, make sure that they don't hit a pothole on their drive to work and have to take money out of their rent or their childcare to pay to fix their damn car. That's why we got to stay focused on the issues that matter to people.

[Jen Psaki]

I know you've thought a lot about as the governor of Michigan, kind of how to navigate Trump, and you did during the first term. You're doing it now, or you're thinking about it at least, because you're trying to do it to protect the people of your state. I mean, he keeps attacking Democratic run cities and Democratic run states, calling many of them crime ridden hellholes, using that as a justification to deploy troops into those cities. And we've seen sort of over the last 24 hours this interesting event in San Francisco, because today San Francisco's mayor seemed to find a way to success, successfully fend off sort of an invasion of his city, at least for now. But I guess by the reporting and by his own account, explaining to Trump on the phone how what he was planning to do would actually hurt his efforts. Now, I'm not aware, you tell me, I'm not aware of this approach working in any other city. But you've dealt with Trump. What do you make of that working for San Francisco, well, you know, the.

[Gretchen Whitmer]

Hat'S off to the mayor for, you know, taking charge and making sure that, you know, they are protecting the people of the city. That's the first and foremost thing that any of us take an oath to do. And that's always going to be my guiding star. But yeah, I'm the governor of a purple state. I am playing my role to make sure that I'm protecting the people of Michigan and protecting our economy. Anytime I get the opportunity to try to persuade them to have less chaos and a strategic plan when it comes to tariffs, I'm going to take that. I have a duty to take that. I'm grateful to see so many people playing a role. This is how it's going to be. I know that there are folks out there who say we want to one person who's going to do all the messaging for everybody. That's not how it works. We got a lot of great leaders across this country on the Democratic side of the aisle. Every one of us has to play the role that we can and we got to support one another and we've got to fight to protect our people. I'm not afraid to do that. Lord knows I've had my number of fights with lots of people over the time in politics and I won't hesitate to do that. But my job is always going to be to protect the people of Michigan and to fight for jobs in our economy.

[Jen Psaki]

Let me ask you about one more thing that's happening around the country. I mean, right now Republicans are racing around to basically attempting to basically steal congressional elections through gerrymandering. And Michigan, of course, just so people know, has an independent redistricting and a divided state government that pretty much, you tell me otherwise, makes it very hard to play a role in this particular fight at this moment. But what do you think of Democratic states who are finding ways to redistrict sort of middle 10 year plan, getting engaged like states like Virginia that announced today that they're going to try and draw new maps. Do you think that is a good thing? How do you feel about it?

[Gretchen Whitmer]

I understand why they're doing it. I think the, you know, every one of us and this democracy depends on free and fair elections. It is the way that we have done elections has worked. Even if you don't like the outcome, even if the outcome's not by the margin you hope it is. You respect the will of the people and what we're. The abuse of power that has been playing out has forced leaders to look at additional ways of addressing that abuse. And I get it. I'm glad that it's not happening here in Michigan. But, you know, but for us, changing how we do redistricting and going to the people and protecting that in our Constitution, we could be very well in the same position. And so that's why I appreciate the work that my colleagues are doing to fight and to protect elections. But let's be clear, this shouldn't be happening in the first place. It's started by someone who wants to undo the outcome of an election or to boost their numbers. And that's just antithetical to this democracy, and it's dangerous.

[Jen Psaki]

Governor Gretchen Whitmer, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.

[Gretchen Whitmer]

Thank you. Good to see you.

[Jen Psaki]

Coming up, Jack Smith calls the Republicans out on their bluff. He told them he is ready and willing to testify, but he will only do it in public. Andrew Weissman just talked to Jack Smith, Smith himself, and he joins me next. The connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other to have a conversation that has never happened before. But on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.

[Podcast Narrator/Announcer]

Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Jen Psaki]

One of the names on the top of Donald Trump's enemies list is former special counsel Jack Smith, the prosecutor who led the federal investigations into Trump's mishandling of classified information and his effort to overturn the 2020 election. And today, Jack Smith basically called Trump's lackeys on their bluff. I mean, in recent weeks, McElworld has bent over backwards to push Trump's narrative, alleging Smith's investigations into him were politically motivated. The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Chuck Grassley, even put out this press release accusing Smith and his team of spying on Republican senators, something that Grassley and others have attempted to characterize as, quote, worse than Watergate. But as Grassley's own press release concedes, the, quote, spying wasn't wiretapping at all, as some have repeatedly claimed falsely. Smith's team obtained basic phone records between January 4th through January 7th of 2021. Basically, who you called and when of certain elected Republicans, Republicans who all reportedly attempted to help Trump in some way or another overturn the 2020 election. And this was all included in a public report Smith's team released in January. Not exactly A secret. And yet last week, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Jim Jordan, demanded that Smith testify before the committee. Earlier today, Jack Smith said, sure thing, I'll do it. Happy, happy to do so at the earliest convenience. I'm happy to come on down, adding that if he's going to testify, it has to be in open hearings and not behind closed doors. And that's key. And based on some of Jack Smith's recent public comments, Republicans really shouldn't be too surprised.

[Nicole Wallace]

You need to be able to let the public know that you're a truth teller and you actually know how to do this. When you don't have a transparent process, it's impossible to do those things. It's impossible to whether you're competent or not, it's impossible to show that. And if you are competent, you shouldn't be afraid of a transparent process.

[Jen Psaki]

Joining me now is Andrew Weissman. He's the former chief of the DOJ's criminal division's fraud section, and he conducted that interview with former special counsel Jack Smith. Andrew, I have no idea how we convince you to stay up. You are the perfect person to talk to about this. I owe you coffee, maybe something better. So thank you for being here. So in this letter, Jack Smith attorneys basically said he will come testify if it's open to the open that people can see it, which is a brilliant move to make. He also asked for a few things, or his lawyers did. What did you make of his decision to actually call them on their bluff?

[Andrew Weissman]

I thought it was incredibly smart to say, you know what, if you want to hear from me, that's fine, but everyone in the public needs to hear from me. I'm not going to do a closed door session where the public doesn't get the benefit of seeing me. If you remember when he was the special counsel, he followed this traditional Department of Justice model, which was only speaking when he announced an indictment and otherwise the speaking was in court through filings. And that left Donald Trump and others to vilify him and to portray him in a certain light. That was quite negative. And I think it's just really smart for people to go out there, including Jack Smith, so that the public can make up their own mind based on the substance of what he has to say, but also get a sort of measure of the man and to see how he comes off. In the interview I did of him for about an hour at an academic institution, I thought he came off like the Eagle Scout, that he is a career public servant. And so I thought it was just Very, very smart to say, yes, I'll do this, but only if it's public.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm pretty skeptical. You can tell me if you disagree, that they will actually agree to do this. But let's just say he does testify and talks about volume two of the report, which he references there. What could be in there? What are some of the things that could come up?

[Andrew Weissman]

Well, this is something that when I interviewed him and people have asked me, sort of like, well, what did you find most interesting? I actually think that the most important thing is actually who he is and people getting to assess his credibility more than any particular thing. One of the things he briefly talked about with me, but I think he would go and elaborate on, is the allegation that you addressed about spying and point out, as his lawyers did today, that one, it's just telephone records, two, that rob her, the Republican special counsel who was investigating Joe Biden also got phone records of the sitting president. And three, the Trump administration did it routinely. And so this is really sort of just not even a mountain out of a molehill, because there isn't even a molehill there. And I think he could address that. I think he could address a lot of issues dealing with, for instance, selective prosecution and sort of what the predicate fact. I think that the Republicans would have a lot to lose by calling him. On the other hand, they are the ones who extended that invitation. And so this is sort of calling them on what they profess to want. And if they back off now, it'll be quite fascinating because it'll really sort of show that this was just an effort to, I think, create a sort of perjury trap, which is that they wanted to see how it would go, see if they can trap him in some misstep if he makes any sort of mistake, which is, I think my view is very much what happened with James Comey. And this is basically saying, you know what, I'm willing to take that risk, but I'm only going to take that risk if the public can see it. And I just think that is so smart. And this is more in your area, Jen, but if you are in the House or the Senate, how do you say no to that? This is someone saying that. I think your constituents should see it. It seems like a very hard thing for someone in politics to say, no, no, no, we only want to do it behind closed doors so our constituents can't see what we're doing.

[Jen Psaki]

I know, but they may punt things down the road. That's what I expect could happen. Like we're going to schedule it, we're going to schedul. The public thing is such an important thing for people to understand. I know you've emphasized it a bunch of times because people testify behind closed doors all the time for a variety of reasons. Sometimes that's what the preference is. But if you do an eight hour testimony and things are pulled from the Republican side, if you're Jack Smith, maybe three sentences or three paragraphs, that completely distorts what it is. That's why the public piece is so, so important and important that they'd have to agree to that. Andrew Weissman, thank you for being brilliant, knowing all the things, for doing that fascinating interview. I used to joke that I didn't know the sound of his voice because he was such a boy scout. He was so quiet. We didn't know that. Tells you a lot about him. But thank you again for joining me.

[Andrew Weissman]

You're welcome. And people can go to YouTube and they can put in his name and they will see him for a full hour and they can really get a sense of who he is. So I really think it's a great idea.

[Jen Psaki]

We'll share that link too. It was a great interview and people should know who he is. He's an important person to know what his background is. It was a great interview. Thank you so much, Andrew.

[Andrew Weissman]

You're welcome.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, but after that, we're gonna talk about how Trump goes after his enemies for bogus charges. He just pardoned an actual criminal who pumped up his family's crypto business. Guys, the word corruption doesn't even begin to describe this one. Congressman Ro Khan is standing by. He's gonna join me to talk about all of it after a quick break. So today in all the news, Trump pardoned the founder of the cryptocurrency exchange called Binance. The pardoned Felon's name is CZ Zhao. If you're not familiar with Mr. Zhao, his company Binance or what they did that got them in trouble with the law in the first place. Let me just get you up to speed here, and it's pretty eye popping. Binance is the world's largest cryptocurrency exchange. Basically a platform on which anyone can buy and sell cryptocurrency from anywhere, all over the world. And back in 2023, Zhao pleaded guilty to essentially letting people launder lots and lots of money through that exchange. I mean, for example, not reporting suspicious transactions involving terrorist groups like Hamas, Al Qaeda and isis. And it turns out. The company knew about all of that for years. Back in 2019, Binance's Chief Compliance officer, the person who is supposed to make sure they are following all of the laws, acknowledged in a message to a colleague that he knew the cryptocurrency exchange was being used to funnel money to Hamas for some reason. Telling his colleague that terrorists normally sent money in small sums, his colleague responded that Hamas could, quote, barely buy an AK47 with 600 bucks. There you go. They exchanged that. As Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen put it at the time, Binance turned a blind eye to its legal obligations in the pursuit of profit. Its willful failures allowed money to flow to terrorists, cybercriminals, and child abusers. The company paid a massive fine, and the founder spent four months in prison. That is who Trump pardoned today. And if you're wondering why Trump chose to pardon Mr. Zhao, I mean, who wouldn't be wondering why, consider this. Earlier this year, after Zhao's guilty plea and prison stint, the Wall Street Journal reported that representatives of the Trump family held talks with Binance about a potential deal. When asked about those talks, Zhao said he hadn't discussed a deal with anyone, but added that no felon would mind a pardon. That was in March. Then, In May, the UAE invested $2 billion in Zhao's company, Binance. But they didn't actually use dollars to make that investment. They used one of Trump's family's cryptocurrencies, essentially depositing $2 billion in a cryptocurrency bank controlled by the Trump family, which could generate returns of 10 of millions of dollars a year. Now, thanks to reporting from the New York Times, we already knew that just two weeks after the UAE made that deal, the White House agreed to allow the UAE to access hundreds of thousands of the world's most advanced and scarce computer chips, despite national security concerns that already raised concerns that Trump might be using his cryptocurrency to sell official acts. Now the question is, is this pardon another example of that? Is this pardon connected to that deal and the tens of millions it could generate for Trump and his family? I think we know probably the answer to that, but I actually think this is all just a small piece of a much larger story. Since retaking office, Trump's net worth has skyrocketed, and now the majority of his fortune is in cryptocurrency. Literally billions and billions of dollars that he and his family have made off crypto since Trump became president. The stories about Zhao and his pardon in the UAE and their computer Chips. Those are the stories we know about. But Trump has effectively created a giant black box where anyone can give him money without any real transparency or accountability and potentially get official acts in return. So my question is, what can we do about this? What can anyone do about this? Joining me now is California Congressman and member of the House Oversight Committee, Ro Khanna. First of all, I tried to do my best to explain, with the help of our amazing producers, what exactly the background of Zhao is here and this company that got this and the guy who got this pardon today. But what do you make of today's pardon? And what did I miss, if anything?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, you did a very good job, but this is just blatant corruption. You have a criminal who was engaged in money laundering, getting money to Hamas, getting money to Iran, getting money to terrorists, having child traffickers launder money, and he was convicted. He paid a $4 billion fine. And then he supported the Trump family crypto business. And basically, for supporting that, Trump, stablecoin has bought himself a pardon. It is so bad that Joe Lonsdale, one of Trump's biggest supporters in tech, says, I am embarrassed by it. You have crypto leaders who supported Trump saying they are embarrassed by this, and this is tarnishing the entire industry. It's the first time I've seen tech leaders who supported Trump actually turning on him or saying something negative about him. And you asked, what can we do about it, Jen? How about more tech leaders, more crypto leaders start speaking out about how awful and corrupt this is?

[Jen Psaki]

Maybe they could call some Republican members of Congress on the House Oversight Committee and get them to do something. So let me ask you about that. I mean, in a town where there's not always a ton of bipartisanship, especially in this environment, there has been some bipartisan work from the House Oversight Committee, obviously, on the Epstein files. What could the committee do here if there was a will to do it? And do you think, I mean, you mentioned a bunch of tech leaders who supported Trump. Do you think there could be a will to do something to investigate this or take actions that are within the powers of the committee?

[Ro Khanna]

Absolutely. For all James Comer has lectured about the pardon power and the abuse of it. And let's be honest, the presidents of both parties abused it, but not to this level. We should have an investigation, and that investigation should have Binance before our committee. We should have a investigation about what Binance did to support the Trump family's stablecoins. We should invite people from the crypto industry to testify about what's really going on. And let's have a bipartisan consensus that you shouldn't be elected. An elected official able to have meme coins, able to have stablecoins, able to have foreign governments buy your stablecoins and increase your value. Like, how. How are we not outraged by this, that any foreign government can basically put money in the president's family's bank account and get something in exchange? I think that people think this is a tech issue. This is not a tech issue. This is a corruption issue. This is money that's going to into someone at the White House and the White House having official acts like pardons in exchange.

[Jen Psaki]

No question. And not to mention, we have no idea who's contributing to the destruction of the East Wing and the rebuilding of the now growingly expensive ballroom. Right. Or even all the people who donated to his transition campaign. We still don't know how much money is even left from that. There's people are paying to play here all over the place. Let me ask you about something else while I have you here. I mean, today, MSNBC reported that the federal prosecutor in charge of investigating, investigating Senator Adam Schiff told her superiors that she doesn't believe there's enough there there to move forward with the case. But the special prosecutor Trump put in charge of all of these cases against his enemies, Ed Martin, is pushing to keep the case alive anyway. I mean, what do you make of that coming the same day? This is all coming in the same day, right? The same day that Trump pardons an actual criminal.

[Ro Khanna]

I'm just sad. I mean, look, Adam Schiff is a patriot. Anyone who knows him knows he's a. He's a patriot. And he's having to raise money for a legal defense fund. And this is a part of intimidation. Look, this is what they did in other countries where one government comes in and then they basically prosecute everyone in the oppositional party. I never thought we'd see this in America, but Trump is just on a retribution politics where he's going after Comey, he's going after Bolton, he's going after Schiff, and he is pardoning people who helped him. It's corrupt. And it's time that people in Silicon Valley who enabled some of this wake up and realize that this is. You want to destroy the free market, you want to destroy American competitiveness. This is how you do it, by eroding the rule of law. And I hope some business leaders will start to speak up.

[Jen Psaki]

Hope so, too. This is the moment. Congressman Ro Khanna, thank you so much for joining me tonight.

[Gretchen Whitmer]

Really.

[Ro Khanna]

Thank you.

[Gretchen Whitmer]

I really appreciate you.

[Nicole Wallace]

It.

[Andrew Weissman]

Thank.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay, up next, Caroline Levitt held a briefing today. She got lots of questions about that ballroom. So I'm going to step in for Caroline and answer a few when we come back. Today's White House press briefing was a doozy. There were a lot of questions about Trump's demolition derby over at what used to be the East Wing of the White House. But before we get started, I just wanted to say that unlike the current White House press secretary, Caroline Levitt, I solemnly swear not to answer any question with your mom. Okay. So let's get started with Weijia Jiang at CBS News. Go ahead, Weijia. Can the president tear down anything he wants without oversight? Could he demolish this building or say the Jefferson Memorial? Let's just pause. We have to at times on how insane it is that this is a conversation we are actually having right now. I mean, the truth is we never really had to ponder before and frankly, we shouldn't have to about the White House or any building. I mean, the same goes for the Jefferson Memorial and other monuments which are federal property. In fact, past presidents have respected norms and processes when renovating, no matter what the law requires. Like when President Truman asked Congress to approve a full reconstruction when the White House was literally falling apart in the late 1940s. One conservation expert actually told your colleague Weija at USA Today that past White House renovations, even as miners, renovations to a shed, have gone through public review procedures established by law, even though it wasn't required. But to just put a final point on your question, while the White House is a National historic Landmark, it is one of three buildings exempt in the 1966 law, which requires review of projects involving historic buildings, which we have again never had to contemplate before. But here we are. Okay, up next, Mary Bruce from ABC News. Go ahead. The president had initially said that this project wouldn't interfere with or touch the current structure. Now he says to do this properly, he realized that the East Wing had to be demolished. This is the people's House. Why not inform the public of that change? And when it was decided that the East Wing would have to be demolished, Mary, he didn't notify the public because Trump does not think the White House belongs to the people. Trump, despite the fact that it is the people's house, he thinks it is his house. And building a 90,000 square foot ballroom is just making up for his insecurities about being a small man who wants big toys. Okay, Garrett Hake from NBC News, hit.

[Nicole Wallace]

Me on the pardon of Changpeng Zhao. And apologies if I'm mispronouncing that name. Binance has significant business interests with World Liberty Financial, the president's family's crypto company. How do you, how do you respond to the allegations from Democrats that this.

[Andrew Weissman]

Is a corrupt act?

[Jen Psaki]

First of all, I don't think that requires a partisan accusation. I think anyone who is being honest would tell you that this pardon is an insanely corrupt act. Trump pardoned a guy who not only pleaded guilty and served prison time for failing to stop criminals from using his crypto platform to facilitate child sex abuse, drug trafficking, and even terrorism. This guy had also been campaigning four months for Trump to pardon him, most notably by funneling a massive investment into the Trump family. Crypto business doesn't feel like it has anything to do with allegations from Democrats to me. Pretty cut and dry if you ask me. Okay, Brittany Gibson from Axios first is we understand that the president and Republicans will not negotiate on ACA extensions until the government reopens. If and when that happens, what does the president think should be or what are his plans for preventing rising health care costs for Americans? Oh, Brittany, we've been waiting for Trump's health care plan since he came down that golden escalator over 10 years ago. All Trump has done so far is basically push Republicans to pass the biggest cuts to Medicaid in history. And now health care premiums will double, if not triple, if Trump and Republicans refuse to extend the ACA premium tax credit. So with that kind of a track record, let's kind of hope he doesn't move beyond concepts of a plan, you know what I mean? Okay. Coming up on the same day, news broke that Trump is trying to shake down his own DOJ for $230 million. Mike Johnson said he hadn't seen the story the next day. He still didn't know the details. I'll show you what he said today when we come back. So it's now the third day since the New York Times published their bombshell reporting that Donald Trump is demanding his own justice department pay him $230 million of likely taxpayer money. Wild story got lots of attention. And here was Mike Johnson's response to that story the day it broke on Tuesday.

[Andrew Weissman]

I'm not going to comment on something I haven't read, so I'm not sure.

[Jen Psaki]

What you're talking about. It's a short article, Mike. Okay, read it. Get back to us now. Here he is 24 hours later.

[Andrew Weissman]

I don't know the details about that. I'VE just read it. I didn't talk with him about that.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay, sure. Little Mike Johnson just needs a little more time. Surely by today, though, he'd know a little more, don't you think?

[Andrew Weissman]

I'm not trying to dodge a question. I haven't had time to get the details. Okay, that's still on my list of things to do.

[Jen Psaki]

It's still on my to do list. I sure would love to see that Mike Johnson to do list, wouldn't you? Because from what we've seen him publicly doing over the past 40 hours, it seems to look a little bit like this. Go on tv. Go on TV again. Tweet a little. Keep House Republicans away from Washington. How about some more tv? Did I miss anything? Surely there's got to be some downtime in one of those green rooms to read a short story. Either way, hopefully you'll get through the rest of that to do list soon because the American taxpayers have a lot of questions. We'll keep you posted. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue Sky, Instagram and TikTok.

[Podcast Narrator/Announcer]

MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Each week, Nicole speaks with some of the people who inspire her the most. This week, she sits down with radio host Charlamagne Tha God, I feel like.

[Nicole Wallace]

There'S one branch of government we have left that hasn't failed us thus far. And that branch of government is the people.

[Podcast Narrator/Announcer]

The Best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.