← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
Psaki: Trump can't TACO out of Iran
00:41:42
Even as the war in Iran tests Donald Trump's attention span and the patience of American voters, it's not like other problems that Trump has created that he can reverse by changing his mind and making an announcement. Jen Psaki looks at the sticking points of Trump's war in Iran.
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Jeffrey Goldberg
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Governor Mikey Sherrill
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Jeffrey Goldberg
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- [00:46]
Show Host (Jen)
of news to get to tonight, a lot of news. But tonight I want to start with the fact that Donald Trump announced he will sign an executive order to pay TSA workers during the ongoing shutdown. Of course, this comes six weeks after this shutdown began, which begs the question, one of the questions, I should say, as to why Trump didn't do this in the first place. I think a lot of people have waited in outlines for four hours, six hours, whatever it may be, are asking that question. We're going to talk about that with New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill, whose state has been hit very hard by that shutdown, both by, in terms of people waiting at the Newark Airport and in many, many different ways. Oh, and tonight the treasury announced that Donald Trump is literally going to put his own name on American currency, not making, it's literally what has been reported, a move that is definitely very tacky, but might also be illegal. So I'm gonna talk about that with former White House ethics lawyer Norm Eisen later on in this hour. But I'm actually gonna start the show, really, with Trump's war of choice in Iran, of course, because we are now on day 27 of the conflict. And gas prices as of today have increased by a full dollar per gallon in just the last month. I'm sure you all have noticed that Wall street just had its worst day since the war began. Iran has categorically rejected Trump's offer to end the war. And even Republicans are irate with the administration over the lack of answers on Iran in the briefings they've done on the Hill just this week. And amid this ongoing crisis, President of the United States held the Cabinet meeting today where normally you would talk about, say, the war you launched four weeks ago and the impacts of it and what every Cabinet member and agency should be doing about it to bring it to an end. What the strategy is. Well, that wasn't what he was focused on. He was laser focused on, of course, another very important issue facing the American people, the quality of our pens.
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Donald Trump
See this pen right here? This pen is an interesting example. It's the same thing. So this pen is very inexpensive, but it writes well. I like it. And, you know, you hand pens out, you're signing, and you hand them out. Beautiful pen ballpoints. But I'm handing it out to kids that don't even know what they are. What is this? Mommy, it's kids. They're getting a pen for $1,000. They have no idea what it is. And it had another problem. They didn't write well. So I take it out, and I saw it, and there's no ink. This one, I called the guy, I said, I'd like to use your pen, but I can't have a gray thing with a big S on it. I can't do that with the press. Use your pen. But I like the pen the best. But I can't use your pen. He said, well, I can make it nicer. I said, that's nice. And I can even paint the White House on it, sir, if you like, in gold, almost real gold. And by the way, this was not staged. I just saw the pen sitting there, and I thought of this as an example.
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Show Host (Jen)
Okay. I just want to note that we literally had to edit that together because he spoke about the pens for so long, it was more than four minutes. That would have taken up way too much time. But I do love the fact that he discloses there at the end that none of that was staged. As if any of us thought the extended riff on pens as part of his strategically written, prepared remarks, I certainly don't think it was. And I promise you, he went on, as I said, about the pens, a whole lot longer than that. And when Trump finally did move on, he showed a lot less urgency and a lot less passion about the war he started than he did about America's calligraphy crisis, I guess you could call it. In fact, he said that contrary to all the reporting we're seeing, Iran is actually begging him to make a deal.
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Donald Trump
And they'll tell you we're not negotiating. We will not negotiate. Of course they're negotiating. They've been obliterated. Who wouldn't negotiate? They are begging to make a deal. I mean, I read a story today that I'm desperate to make a deal. I'm not. I Don't. If I was desperate, he'd be the first to know. Pete, let's get the hell out of there. I'm the opposite of desperate. I don't care.
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Show Host (Jen)
He's the opposite of desperate. Everyone, you heard it there. He doesn't even care if the US Makes a deal with Iran somehow. And remember, Trump set a deadline for Iran to reopen the Strait of Hormuz by tomorrow, threatening to attack their civilian infrastructure if they don't. Well, late today, Trump announced that he was extending that deadline by 10 days, which doesn't feel like something he should have to do if Iran really is so desperate to make a deal. That doesn't make a lot of sense. Trump wants the public to think that he's got this all in the bag, that we've already won. He says that all the time, that he's just tying up some loose ends, finalizing a few words in the final document. But as much as that might sound like public posturing, Trump might actually believe that he can simply end this war whenever he wants. I mean, today the Wall Street Journal reports that behind the scenes, he's telling aides that he wants the war wrapped up according to his original timeline, which means within the next two weeks. Apparently, he's just over it. Multiple people familiar with the matter tell the Journal that, quote, in discussions with outside political allies, his attention has at times shifted to other topics, including the coming midterm elections. Who wants to talk about a war you started when you can talk about House races, I suppose. I mean, not only that, but Trump told an associate that the war was distracting from his other priorities, one source told the Journal. In other words, Trump seems increasingly bored by the war. He wants to focus on other things, like the midterms, of course, or, you know, pension. But as everyone but him seems to understand, it's really just not that simple. You see, Trump has gotten used to the idea that he can make big, disastrous decisions and just reverse himself when he thinks things get out of control, when he sees people don't like it, necessarily. I mean, we all watched him do it over and over again with his tariffs threatening, steep duties on imports, watching the markets crash and then walking it all back. His habit of reversing his own decisions, as you all know, even has its own acronym, Taco, as in Trump always chickens out. But the thing is, Trump can't just taco his way out of this war. There are other stakeholders who get a say when the war will end. And whether he likes it or not, Iran is one of them. So is Israel. And their leverage has only increased since he started bombing Iran almost four weeks ago. Trump can't just declare a mission accomplished and walk away. It's not how it works. And the people around Trump, the ones who are actually carrying out this war, they know that. Which is why every report we get on the administration's thinking indicates that they are preparing for a longer, much more protracted conflict. I mean, just before we got on the air, the Wall Street Journal reported that the Pentagon is weighing sending an additional 10,000 troops to the Middle East. That's according to multiple people familiar with the planning. And Today, Axio cites two U.S. officials who say that the administration is preparing a massive escalation of this war. They're calling it a final blow, but it seems anything but final. It could include the use of ground forces. The plans reportedly include the use of ground forces, as well as several options for invading Iranian controlled territory. There are even preparations for ground operations deep inside the heart of Iran aimed at securing their enriched uranium, which is incredibly difficult to do. All of that suggests a much longer and much deeper conflict that could be incredibly costly, not just in terms of the funding needed, but more importantly in terms of the lives of the American military. I mean, at the same time, Bloomberg cites multiple sources who say that the administration is also preparing for the possibility of oil reaching as much as $200 a barrel, a huge spike that would have major implications for the U.S. economy. And also today, the Washington Post cites three sources who say the Pentagon is now considering diverting weapons intended for Ukraine and sending them to the Middle east instead of as the conflict there continues to deplete U.S. munitions. Now, on top of all of that, there are signs that the Iranian regime has actually been emboldened by Trump's actions. Reuters reports that Iranian hardliners are now ramping up their calls for their country to build a nuclear bomb. And the Associated Press reports that Iran is now operating the Strait of Hormuz as a de facto toll booth, strengthening their grip on the critical passageway and levying fees on any ships they want to pass through safely. But none of that, none of that seems to bother Donald Trump. In fact, Trump now seems perfectly fine with Iran's grip on the Strait of Hormuz. Which brings me to the so called mystery present from Iran that Trump has been teasing since Tuesday. Because today he finally revealed what it was.
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Donald Trump
You know I told you about a president, right, Steve? Can I reveal the president?
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Show Host (Jen)
You can do anything.
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Jeffrey Goldberg
You can.
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Donald Trump
They said to show you the fact that we're real and solid. And we're there. We're going to let you have eight boats of oil. Eight boats. Eight big boats of oil. And actually, they then apologized for something they said. And they said, we're going to send two more boats. And it ended up being 10 boats.
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Show Host (Jen)
That's right, everyone. The extravagant, expensive mystery present he was so excited about that Trump got from Iran turned out to be that Iran let eight ships or go through the Strait of Hormuz without blowing them up. Or that's reportedly what they committed to. Now, for context here, prior to Trump's war, roughly 110 ships sailed through that strait every day with that incident. So I'm not sure that either getting through is something to celebrate that much. I mean, 10 ships, that's a very small percentage of 110 ships per day. Again, 110 per day. 10 just one time. You don't have to be a mathematician. Now, to be clear, Iran shouldn't be interfering with any maritime traffic. But apparently Trump thinks it's okay if they just let a few ships through here and there as they please. And there were moments today when it actually sounded like he had given up on reopening the Strait of Hormuz altogether.
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Donald Trump
The amazing thing is we don't need the Hormuz Strait. We don't need it. We don't need it at all. We have so much oil. Our country is not affected by this.
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Show Host (Jen)
First off, anyone who has filled up their gas tank recently, which is most Americans, can tell you that our country absolutely is affected by this. But more importantly, the president now seems more and more resigned to accept the fallout from this war, even though the American people are growing more and more frustrated. A new Fox News poll out this week finds a full 59% of Americans disapprove of the job Trump is doing as president, his worst performance ever in that poll. And voters in that same poll disapprove of Trump's handling of the war by 28 points. It's not hard to see why Trump would want to move on from all of this. But war is not like taco tariffs. He can't just move on. The realities on the ground won't allow him to just cut and run. I mean, Trump's approach to US Military intervention is as maddening as it is baffling. But luckily, there's one person I know who understands better than anyone how Trump approaches these kinds of things. Atlantic Editor in Chief Jeffrey Goldberg has had some of the best reporting on Trump's military worldview, going all the way back to Trump's first admin, Jeffrey Goldberg, who broke the story that Trump reportedly called Americans who died on the battlefield suckers and losers. And it was Jeffrey Goldberg who got a firsthand look at how Trump's second administration carries out war plans when he was inadvertently added to a group signal chat with top Trump officials. I can think of no one better to help us understand the disconnect between Trump's own view of this war and the reality on the ground. Joining me now is Jeffrey Goldberg, editor in chief at the Atlantic. It's great to see you. Thank you for being here. Let me start by just asking you about what we hear from Trump every day about his desire to end this war, to end it quickly. He says we've won. He says it's going to end in two weeks. And yet the military there's been reporting that the Pentagon is looking to send 10,000 more troops to the Middle East. You've covered national security, you've covered wars, you've covered administrations for decades. What should people take away from that?
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Jeffrey Goldberg
People should take away is that the thing that he says on a Monday is unrelated to the thing that he will say on a Tuesday and the thing that he will do on a Wednesday. It's not. There's no. There's not. There's no linear quality to this. There's no strategy, as we know, which is a problem, going to have a war without a strategy and without a goal, without an articulated set goal for it. There are. There are a number of wars going on there, but let's talk about two. Two wars. The first war is the CENTCOM run war, the military run war. Plans on plans. On plans. They are, from what we can tell, 50 to 70% through their target list, degrading and destroying missile capacity, nuclear capacity, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Right? Those plans have been there and updated every day for years, and they're operating on it. Then there's the war as it exists in mind, in the President's mind, the commander in chief's mind. Now, usually in times of war, there's a lockup between what's happening inside the commander in chief's head and what's happening in reality on the ground. There's no such lockup now, as far as we can tell. So when people ask, what do you think is going to happen tomorrow? It seems, let's use the Strait of Hormuz. Right now. Iran has given us 10 ships. If I steal your car and say, I'm gonna give you two of the tires back, you don't go on television and brag about that.
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Show Host (Jen)
Two of the tires back for one day.
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Jeffrey Goldberg
For a day. So he sounds like he's ready to give up something that we had before this war, which was control of free access, Strait of Hormuz, which of course is connected to our economy because the economy in America is affected by the economy in other countries. I don't need to try to explain that.
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Show Host (Jen)
We talk about this nearly every day.
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Jeffrey Goldberg
No, I know, but I mean, it's like. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like if prices. Forget it. I can't. It gets frustrating.
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Show Host (Jen)
The street needs to be open because it's a global oil market.
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Jeffrey Goldberg
Yeah. And if the US US has since the close of World War II, been the guarantor of free. Of free and open shipping lanes, it has always been the guarantor in modern history of Persian gold. We've had wars in the Persian Gulf in order to keep the Persian Gulf open. So you start a war where you're supposed to defeat the country that legitimately threatens free trade and free movement of oil and gas, and you can't end up. You can't end up with a war that ends with your enemy in control of something that your enemy wasn't in control of before and can't claim. That's a victory. Now, in a reality distortion field, you can say to the world, we won, but the world won't buy it and reality won't buy it. So in other words, when he talks about two to three weeks, I think that's because he's hearing from his military commanders, this is what we've done, this is what we can do. Give us the order. How far do you want us to go? That goes in a kind of orderly way, but the opposite of orderly is what's going on day to day. In his statements and in his.
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Show Host (Jen)
Let me ask you about another aspect of this that feels very discordant in terms of his expectations or what he says publicly in reality, and that is the different objectives and goals of Israel and Prime Minister Netanyahu and what the United States may be, even though it's not clear to most Americans or to any of us what their exact objectives are, but it seems clear they're not in line with Israel's. Exactly. They're saying, we need, we. They need weeks more to fight this war. How do you think that disconnect or lack of alignment at this point point, since this is already a war that's been underway for four weeks, impacts how it ends?
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Jeffrey Goldberg
My guess, and again, stipulating that nobody knows nothing because the future hasn't happened yet.
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Show Host (Jen)
You know more than most. Go ahead.
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Jeffrey Goldberg
My guess is that Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel, ends somewhat. This ends in a way that leaves him at least somewhat dissatisfied. He thought that the president and believes that the President of the United States will execute a war plan that will lead to regime change that will help the Iranian people rise up. We know that they want to rise up. The vast majority don't like their government. And that all of these things would trigger an uprising that would at least, at best, maybe not from the Israeli perspective, but from the American perspective, end in a democratic Iran. Right. Which is a nice hope and a dream. Obviously, we all want that. Or at the very least, a state that has collapsed on itself and poses no threat externally, including and especially to Israel, but also to Israel's Arab allies in the Gulf. If I'm sitting in Jerusalem looking at the President's statements, I'm asking myself, I don't, what is he going to do next? If he's looking at midterm, the midterms, if he's looking at his own polling numbers, if he's looking at the price of gas, he can get bored. He can realize that this is too tough to go on and he will leave the Israelis not holding the bag. Exactly. The Israelis and the Arabs, by the way, because the Arabs are signaling to Trump, hey, this was a war of choice. Now it's a war of necessity. So don't leave us in the lurch again. I don't think he'll care very much what they say on that. So at the end of this war, the Israelis and the Arab states of the Gulf may not have what they were hoping for, which is a completely neutralized Iran. They might have a hard edged regime that has less power to project through ballistic missiles and through a nuclear program, but an angrier, more hardline power that could harass shipping in the Strait of Hormuz, just for starters. We don't know, because we don't know what Donald Trump's ultimate goal is because he's listed all of the goals and toggles back and forth among them without rhyme or reason.
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Show Host (Jen)
And Prime Minister Netanyahu has tried to convince US Presidents I've worked for to do something similar. So this is where we're kind of at.
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Jeffrey Goldberg
Right?
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Show Host (Jen)
Let me ask you about, I mean, I just listed some of the reporting you did on the first Trump administration. I think there was this widespread perception maybe you had it and maybe you don't. You can tell me that Trump was kind of more of a anti war and anti interventionist type of. Like, that was a little bit of his worldview to the degree he has one. And that was where a lot of people in the MAGA base felt what they felt they were supporting. And now it's something different. Do you think there was a misunderstanding of his worldview? He doesn't have a worldview, or how do we get here?
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Jeffrey Goldberg
I don't think he has a worldview. I mean, there's no coherence to. To what he's done in recent months. I can't. It's very hard to articulate this. We've had a lot of conversations over the years about national security and international geopolitics and the post World War II international liberal order. And those conversations make sense because we're starting from a shared set of facts, and we're also starting from basic, clear ideological streams that aren't that different from each other. Some are more hawkish, some are more dovish. But here we have a guy who literally, to borrow the expression, he's literally just trying to get through the next 10 minutes. He's just trying to get out of the conversation without being publicly humiliated. That's my impression of what's going on here. Is it surprising that the pro peace, semi isolationist president is invading Venezuela, invading Nigeria, invading Iran, invading possibly Cuba? It's not surprising at all, because nothing is surprising, because it doesn't make sense. There is a bias. I always say this. The real bias in journalism very often is not left or right. It's a bias toward coherence. Very smart people have made this observation before. There's a bias to try to make the world make sense. And with this unique president that. I don't know anybody who can do that. I would love to find them and have them explain all of this to me, but I don't know who that person is.
- [21:08]
Show Host (Jen)
You're invited to dinner with Jeffrey Goldberg. And I, whomever you may be out there.
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Jeffrey Goldberg
Yeah. Please come.
- [21:14]
Show Host (Jen)
We have to take a.
- [21:15]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Give you a mug.
- [21:15]
Show Host (Jen)
We'll give you a mug, et cetera, An Atlantic subscription. All the things.
- [21:20]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Well, that's worth a lot. It's not just a mug.
- [21:22]
Show Host (Jen)
Fair, Fair.
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Commercial Announcer
Okay.
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Show Host (Jen)
I just want to be one magazine. We take a quick break. I want to talk to you about Pete Hexseth. For a million reasons, including the fact that he texted you war plans about a year ago and he hasn't suffered consequences, we're gonna talk about that, but I wanted you to. I don't know if you saw this, I wanted you to listen to something he said today, which is kind of in the vibe of how Pete Hegseth is approaching this war, I guess I should say.
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Jeffrey Goldberg
The folks here in the room, these
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Show Host (Jen)
cameras, they have a choice.
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Jeffrey Goldberg
You're either informing the American people of the truth or you're not. Because I hear it from my people every day.
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Show Host (Jen)
Behind every headline you write, there's a
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Jeffrey Goldberg
helicopter crew in the air.
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Show Host (Jen)
And behind every news banner you write, there's a battalion on the move.
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Jeffrey Goldberg
And behind every fake news story, there's an F35 pilot executing a dangerous mission.
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Show Host (Jen)
My message to the media is get it right. Okay? Lots to say about that. We're gonna take a break. I'll get your thoughts when we come back.
- [22:28]
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- [22:58]
Jeffrey Goldberg
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Show Host (Jen)
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Jeffrey Goldberg
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- [23:28]
Show Host (Jen)
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- [24:07]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
We are back with the editor in
- [24:08]
Show Host (Jen)
chief of the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg. Okay, so you a year ago were texted war plans on a signal chat, which you wrote about. We talked about it. You also wrote a recent piece about how it was really interesting piece about how Hexith hasn't had any consequences. We all Know that. But that in the military, anyone, any basic small infraction there are consequences for. So it kind of stands out for that reason. But I was curious as to whether you thought, and I just played the clip before the break. He's been more emboldened because of no consequences. Is he behaving the way he's behaving because there were no consequences?
- [24:42]
Jeffrey Goldberg
He's pretty consistent in his behavior, right? There's that kind of preemptive bellicosity to everything he says. He has kind of one tone, rhyming, chest dumping. And it's a lot, right? It's light on information. It's a lot of intimidation. I mean, he's trying unsuccessfully to intimidate the press. I mean, I would remind, looking at that clip, I would remind the secretary that a lot of the reporters he's talking about successfully and to the help or to the benefit of the American people embedded with American forces. Over the last 20 years, we've had reporters go ashore D day together with the troops. I mean, this isit's a long tradition in our democracy to have a media, a press that closely watches the military, praises when the military should be praised, criticizes when it should be criticized. And he's talking as if the press is the enemy of the people. You know, the Pentagon press corps as
- [25:45]
Show Host (Jen)
well as I do, they're smart and nerdy.
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Jeffrey Goldberg
They're nerdy and they're national. And they want to have serious conversations about national security priorities. And that's what you're not getting from the Secretary of Defense. And so it's as if. And we don't hear from the acting National Security Advisor, Marco Rubio very much, as I'm sure you've noticed.
- [26:06]
Show Host (Jen)
I don't even know what he said about this off the top of the.
- [26:09]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Yeah, no, I mean, he's very careful because I think Marco Rubio is the smart one in the pairing here in a lot of ways. He's very careful not to thump his chest and say sorts of things that will get you into trouble later. But no, I mean, Pete Hegsenth is empowered, obviously. Audience of one, Donald Trump likes him and likes his performance, and I use the word performance very advisedly. And you know, if you go back a year, it is true that he did something in the signal gate, the so called signal gate controversy that would have gotten any other military leader or civilian in the Pentagon court martialed, indicted, disciplined, fired. You know, in the military, our armed forces, which are the best in the world, run on order, discipline, responsibility and character. And so when you do something that a private in the army would be punished for doing, you gotta take some responsibility. That's the only thing that I hear people argue about today on this front, which is like, it was a very bad morale moment when this happened because Hegseth lashed out rather than saying, yep, I made a mistake. When I make a mistake, I take responsibility for it and I learn from the mistake.
- [27:30]
Show Host (Jen)
Jeffrey Goldberg, I feel like Pete Hegseth is going to be around for a while, that's my guess, until he gets
- [27:36]
Jeffrey Goldberg
another TV show, surprisingly.
- [27:38]
Show Host (Jen)
Thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it.
- [27:40]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Thank you.
- [27:41]
Show Host (Jen)
Okay, coming up tonight, gas prices are skyrocketing. And as I think all of you are experiencing, TSA lines are as long as they've ever been. And Donald Trump is desperately trying to solve the problems that he created. We've seen this movie before. New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill is standing by and she joins me next to talk about all of that.
- [28:02]
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- [28:32]
Show Host (Jen)
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- [29:39]
Show Host (Jen)
As we mentioned at the top of the hour tonight, President Trump announced that he's going to sign an executive order directing the Secretary of Homeland Security to pay TSA agents and end the chaos at our nation's airports. Now, very clearly, he's trying to take credit for solving the problem here. That's to state the obvious. But remember, this is a problem he himself created and has perpetuated. Now, for weeks, I mean, Democrats have repeatedly offered to pass a standalone bill funding the tsa. Even Republicans like Senators John Kennedy and Ted Cruz got on board with that plan, but Trump refused. He could have signed this executive order at any point over the past month, or he could have agreed to the deal Democrats were offering him, but he chose not to. He created this mess, and now he's trying to take all of the credit for fixing it. If you don't believe me, here was Republican Senator John Kennedy saying it as clear as can be earlier this week.
- [30:29]
Donald Trump
We could have had TSA paid by the end of the week, but the president said no deal.
- [30:37]
Show Host (Jen)
Now, to make matters worse, because Trump waited so long on this, just funding TSA doesn't mean the agency is now suddenly fixed. I mean, earlier this week, the head of TSA told Congress that nearly 500 TSA agents have quit since the start of the partial shutdown. She added that it takes four to six months to train new TSA officers. So even though Trump has now all of a sudden decided that he wants to fund the tsa, a lot of damage has already been done that will be. It won't be that easy to reverse. He's always been a ball of chaos. He's always makes messes that take a long time to clean up. But in just the past few weeks, he has created crises after crises that Americans aren't just reading about in the news, but are experiencing firsthand. I mean, for example, anywhere in the country. If we turn on any local TV news broadcast tonight, I bet you will see stories like this one.
- [31:28]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Gas prices in the state of Texas have gone up by more than $1 in just the last month. And with strong strikes now targeting critical oil infrastructure in the Middle east, we
- [31:39]
Commercial Announcer
may be in for just the beginning. Gas prices in Utah close to $1.20 higher per gallon than a month ago.
- [31:46]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Gas prices here in Maine rose once again this morning.
- [31:49]
Show Host (Jen)
Gas prices staying high and getting higher in Las Vegas.
- [31:52]
Jeffrey Goldberg
The Washingtonians paying $5.27 per gallon on average.
- [31:57]
Show Host (Jen)
The average price for a gallon of regular gas in California is now $5.82. Everywhere today, oil prices rose yet again after Donald Trump moved his deadline for Iran to reopen the Strait of Hormuz from this Friday to April 6th. And of course, that timeline really means nothing as we've just been talking about. But even if Trump does end up negotiating an end to the war and reopening somehow the Strait of Hormuz next month, and I don't know how that will happen, experts say that gas prices here at home are likely to remain high for a very long time. One economist telling the New York Times that even if the war were to end soon, he thinks it would still take another six to eight weeks for oil production and shipments to normalize. That's going to have a real impact on Americans pocketbooks. And because Trump owns this crisis so completely, it could also have a real impact on American politics. Take a listen to this young voter that Ms. Now interviewed a gas station in New Jersey last weekend.
- [32:52]
Jeffrey Goldberg
My car here typically is only $35
- [32:54]
Commercial Announcer
a fill, but now it's in the
- [32:55]
Jeffrey Goldberg
$45, $50 range and it's a little ridiculous.
- [32:58]
Show Host (Jen)
Have you ever voted for a Democrat?
- [33:00]
Jeffrey Goldberg
I have not yet, no. Do you think you will now? I'd say I'd be more open to it.
- [33:06]
Show Host (Jen)
He'd be more open to it. There's something there. Joining me now is New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill. Governor Sherrill, thank you so much for being with us tonight. I really appreciate it. I just want to start. There's just been new reporting this evening about Donald Trump saying he is intends to sign an executive order to pay the tsa. I think I wanted to ask you about it because I think a lot of people who see that headline may think this is solved. I'm going to go to the airport tomorrow and the lines will be short. Do you know anything more about it or how it would work in terms of paying TSA agents and how people should anticipate if he does sign it soon, how long it will take to get things back to normal?
- [33:46]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
As usual, this is completely ridiculous. There's no plan. He makes some tweet. God only knows how the Republicans are going to respond to this. But certainly if he could have done this, he should have done it already. The idea that he's putting these ICE agents in the airports, from what we've heard, they're just milling around, they don't know what to do. You just put out the information that it takes months to train TSA agents. So just putting this sort of untrained militia in the middle of an airport just gets in the way of everyone we're still hearing. Despite all these ICE agents, Houston still was taking about three hours to get through the security line. It's really striking to me. Everywhere I turn, things that were, you know, not the concern. We have a lot of concerns in New Jersey, but things that you just took for granted. Taking a flight somewhere, being able to get through an airport line in security without too much drama, and then get on your flight and not worry that there might not be air traffic controllers focused on your flight or that you might get into a crash on the tarmac or, God forbid, in the air. Again and again, we're just seeing routine, basic things that Americans should expect to function, not functioning under the Trump administration. It's why I'm fighting so hard to chart a different path forward here in New Jersey.
- [34:59]
Show Host (Jen)
It is. That is such a definition of what happens. He creates a problem, I mean, then tries to solve it, sometimes doesn't know how to solve it.
- [35:08]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
It's a real pattern.
- [35:09]
Show Host (Jen)
And you're really seeing the impact in your state. I wanted to ask you, you mentioned ICE at airports. I think it's scaring a lot of people. We've showed a lot of footage of ICE agents sort of milling about, looking at people getting coffee. It's hard to understand what's actually happening there. It's not reducing the lines. But when you ran for governor, you talked a lot about energy prices. Well, talk about that. You didn't focus a ton on ice, but your tenure as governor has. I mean, you took a number of actions just yesterday. Tell us about why, kind of what. What prompted you to take those actions. And I'd also love to hear more about whether you think the politics around the issue have just shifted.
- [35:46]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
You know, what I learned over the
- [35:48]
Show Host (Jen)
last year is it's.
- [35:50]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
It's important to constantly connect with the people you're serving, to hear day in and day out about what's going on in their lives and how, as governor, as somebody elected to serve them, I can make their opportunity better, make their lives more secure, protect their kids.
- [36:04]
Show Host (Jen)
That's what I committed to doing.
- [36:06]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
Driving down costs in this affordability crisis, giving a better future to our kids, and holding government accountable for the ways in which it can do all of these things. And so I got to work right away. And that's why, as we charted out the state of emergency on utility costs, I froze rate hikes in the middle of my inaugural address as I was continuing to work to make government more accountable and put an online dashboard up so people could see where their money was going in this budget and focus the budget on taking care of our kids and their mental health and online safety. I was hearing again and again about how concerned people were about their safety. The interactions they'd had on the streets here in New Jersey with ICE agents, the masked people that were carrying weapons that refused to identify themselves or give any, you know, give any update on what they were doing. We were reaching out to DHS to say, what is the plan here? Why are they in certain spaces, we were seeing dangerous interactions where kids dispersed and ran away as they were going through pickup on the bus in the mornings, and principals madly trying to find out where these kids were who were supposed to be in school. So again, and against, in dangerous situations with no accountability. So I moved, I said, look, I have pledged to keep our streets and our kids safe and that's what I'm going to do. And I'll tell you, I can't weigh in on nationally or where people should go in any given moment. I can tell you in New Jersey, if you are fighting for the people that you serve, if you're willing to stand up to anyone, including the President of the United States, as I am, then you're going to do quite well.
- [37:43]
Show Host (Jen)
Let me ask you about energy prices. I mean, because you ran on this issue, you just mentioned it. It was something you talked about relentlessly even before Trump started a war in Iran four weeks ago. And I was wondering, given that you ran on the issue, but also your background in national security, when your constituents ask you, when are our gas prices going to come down, what do you tell them in this moment?
- [38:10]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
You know, I have constituents who ask me about gas prices and affordability. I have a lot of constituents. And we have National Guard deployed right now in the Middle east who want to know what the plan is. And then, you know, we just have people who were committed to. They said, I thought this president was going to end the forever wars. That's what he said. Mikey, how do you think this is going to be different? And I have to tell them this war makes no sense. I served on the House Armed Services Committee. I was in the United States Navy for almost 10 years as a helicopter pilot. I was there as we were fighting the global war on terror. And I can tell you, you can't simply remove a regime with no plan as we did. And that's how we got into the last 20 year war. We saw what happened in Vietnam as we had no good ground strategy. And now, again, what we've basically come to, what Trump has accomplished here is he has taken out the Ayatollah, replaced him with his more hardline, more anti American son, He's actually lifted sanctions so that Iranians can sell their oil. You could see a world where they make money off that just to buy weapons to fire against Americans. And he has no strategy in sight for lowering gas prices across the country during an affordability crisis. It's striking how every time he gets engaged and involved, working people's lives get worse.
- [39:33]
Show Host (Jen)
No question about it. I think people are living and experiencing. You just summarized so well. It's troops, it's people who have children who might serve. It's people paying more at the gas tank. It's all of the things you mentioned. Governor Mikey Sherrill, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
- [39:49]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
- [39:51]
Show Host (Jen)
Absolutely. Okay. Coming up, at a time when the American people are hurting, which we were just talking about, Donald Trump is using your money in the most corrupt ways possible. And tonight we learned he is literally going to put his name on that money. You can't make it up sometimes. Former Obama ethics star Norm Eisen is standing by, and he's going to join me next. Today, Democratic Senator Katherine Cortes Masso said the Trump administration was diverting $1 billion of taxpayer money from the State Department to Donald Trump's Board of Peace. You know, the seemingly unaccountable slush fund he created that he'll still control once he leaves office. The senator proposed a bill that would instead use that money for a program aimed at reducing energy costs for working families. But I think Trump would prefer that money, your money, that is, stays in his slush fund instead. Here's another headline about your tax dollars. Justice Department settles lawsuit from Trump ally Michael Flynn for 1.2 million. An alternate version could possibly read, trump's Justice Department gives Trump's Buddy Michael Flynn $1.2 million of your money because he committed crimes. Because that's what happened. Look, obviously this administration will stop at nothing to use your money in the most corrupt ways possible. And it wasn't also incredibly on the nose, if it wasn't already so incredibly on the nose. Brace yourselves for this one, because today we learned Trump's signature is literally going to appear on future paper currency, the first time in history for a sitting president. Joining me now is the former ethics czar for President Obama, Norm Eisen. Norm, it's always great to see you. When I saw this story, I was like, I wonder what Norm thinks. And here you are. So what's your reaction to Trump's latest attempt to slap his name onto something? And this time, it is literally money.
- [41:50]
Norm Eisen
Well, Jen, he's Been grabbing cash as fast as he can in every direction with his net worth exploding. So it's appropriate that we're going to see his signature. The first time we've had anything like this in over 160 years, since before the end of the Civil War. It's a throwback and a reminder that this is the most corrupt administration in American history, with Trump and his cronies in and outside of the government taking money out of the taxpayers pockets as fast as they can.
- [42:38]
Show Host (Jen)
There are so many corruption stories and we try to talk about it a lot on this show and it is, in fact, should be infuriating. I mean, there's the Trump corruption where he's trying to put his name on institutions and currency, and there's the Trump corruption where he and his family appear to be making a whole lot of money while he sits in the Oval Office. And today his son in law, Jared Kushner, said that he was still just quote, volunteering for the administration while his investment firm rakes in billions from countries in the Middle East. Do you think that's just a way for. I just want to ask you about the Jared Kushner piece because is that just to avoid ethics scrutiny so he doesn't have to do a financial disclosure? What is that all about? Give us your take on that.
- [43:20]
Norm Eisen
Well, we filed a legal complaint about the Jared Kushner situation at my organization, the Democracy Defenders Fund, because of the serious questions that it raises with this responsibility that he has as Trump's peace envoy in the Middle east, while Kushner is raising billions of dollars from those same countries in the Gulf, sitting on the board, Trump's board of peace, while at the same time running his affinity partners, seeking an extra 5 billion from the Gulf region. It raises questions, Jen. Under the anti nepotism laws, the President is not supposed to prefer family members in this way. Jared Kushner is representing the government. The Constitution says you can't take foreign cash or benefits. Emoluments. It's the only ethics rule that was so important the founders and framers of our country put it in the Constitution. And of course, conflicts of interest, how in a time of war, the aftermath in Gaza, the war in Iran, you have a senior American representative like Mr. Kushner raising money in the region at the same time as we have these incredible, incredibly complicated conflicts. It is a mess and a scandal of the kind that we really haven't seen in modern American history.
- [45:15]
Show Host (Jen)
Thank you, Norm, for being the always ethics czar. We need it in this moment. Thank you. Again for being here. That does it for me tonight. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9:00pm Eastern on Ms. Now. And don't forget to follow the show on BlueSky, Instagram and TikTok.
- [45:30]
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