← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
Reports say DOJ told Trump: YOU'RE IN THE EPSTEIN FILES
00:41:29
Jen Psaki relays breaking news from the Wall Street Journal that Attorney General Pam Bondi told Donald Trump in May that that his name is in the Epstein files, suggesting the reason the Trump administration has been so energized to prevent the release of material related to the investigation of Jeffrey Epstein.
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Nicole Wallace
Now is your time to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of their national red Tag sales event, now extended through July 27. Stop by any of their participating communities and find select red tag homes at Incredible Pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss the red tag sales event extended to July 27th. Discover the Dr. Horton Difference at DrHorton.com Dr. Horton, America's Builder and Equal Housing Opportunity Builder. MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with actor Jeff Daniels.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
When you check out of the Ambition Hotel, you kind of go, okay, now I just want to do stuff that keeps me interested.
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Nicole Wallace
The best people with Nicole Wallace listen now. For early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podc.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
So in the House, there is a subcommittee on federal law enforcement. It's a part of the Oversight Committee and it's one of the many congressional subcommittees you may have never heard of. And as the name suggests, their job is to oversee federal law enforcement. That's what they do. One of the interesting things about the committee is that its Republican members are a murderer's row of sorts, of complete and utter MAGA fanatics. I mean, this must be a committee that Trump's most loyal supporters in Congress are begging for help to get on, because here's who's on it. There's Arizona Congressman Andy Biggs, who said last year that the number one job of Congress was to get Trump reelected. There's South Carolina Congresswoman Nancy Mace, who is so enthralled with Trump she's asked him to build another so called alligator, Alcatraz immigration prison in her home state. State. There's Pennsylvania Congressman Scott Perry, who played a key role in Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. And there's Colorado Congresswoman Lauren Boebert. And for that one, I'm just going to leave it at that because you know certainly who she is. Now, as we all know, Republicans controls Congress, which means they outnumber Democrats on every committee and on every subcommittee like this one. So this is not the kind of committee that you would expect to defy the president's wishes. But earlier this evening, that is exactly what happened. It started when the ranking Democrat on that committee, Congresswoman Summerlee, forced committee Republicans to confront their own hypocrisy, which is raging right now on the issue that has consumed Trump's presidency.
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Stephen Cheung
Right now, Speaker Johnson is helping Donald Trump block the release of all the files relating to child sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. If you want to take a stand against child trafficking, let's do it together. Rep. Biggs has said we want to get to the bottom of it. Rep. Mesa stated, I believe we need answers on Epstein. Rep. Perry has written to Pam Bondi on Epstein saying the American people deserve answers and justice. Rep. Boebert said we deserve the truth about the Epstein files. So I hope my Republican colleagues will join me in supporting a motion to subpoena the Department of Justice to release the Epstein files.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
I hope my Republican colleagues will join me in supporting a motion to subpoena the Department of Justice to release the Epstein files. Couldn't be more clear than that. Now, just a few later, most of the Republicans on that subcommittee followed her lead. By a vote of 8 to 2, the subcommittee voted in favor of subpoenaing the Epstein files. Donald Trump, and by association, his little buddy Mike Johnson definitely don't want Congress to subpoena the Epstein files. But they lost the vote in that MAGA filled subcommittee eight to two. And then just a few hours later, the full Republican controlled oversight committee agreed to issue the subpoena. Now, in what looks like kind of a bit of an attempt to muddy the waters here, Republicans also agreed to subpoena Bill and Hillary Clinton, obviously James Comey, Robert Mueller and every attorney general going back to 2005. I mean, everyone, Loretta lynch is included on that list just to tell you something, I guess. But nevertheless, Congress is now using their power to actually get the Epstein files. And that news comes on what was already shaping up to be a pretty bad freaking day for Donald Trump, because today the Wall Street Journal confirmed what many of us have honestly long suspected, that Donald Trump's name appears multiple times in the Epstein files and also that Trump knows it. Here's what the story said. In May, Bondi and her deputy informed the President at a meeting in the White House that his name was in the Epstein files, according to senior administration officials. Now that reporting, which was quickly matched by the New York Times, suggests that Donald Trump was pretty misleading. Just eight days ago when he said this.
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Stephen Cheung
The Attorney General briefed you on the DOJ and FBI review. The findings of that review. The Attorney General briefed you on what? On the, on the DOJ and FBI review.
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Nicole Wallace
On what subject?
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Stephen Cheung
Epstein on Epstein of the review of the files. Attorney General Pambani, a very, very quick briefing. Did she tell you, what did she tell you about the review? And specifically did she tell you at all that your Name appeared in the.
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Preet Bharara
No, no, she' given us just a very quick briefing.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
No, no. A quick briefing, by the way, could tell you that your name appears many times in the files, for what it's worth. But in response to this new reporting, Trump Communications Director Stephen Cheung told NBC News, quote, this is nothing more than a continuation of the fake news stories concocted by the Democrats and the liberal media. I have to say, I've read a lot of Stephen Cheung quotes. It seems like he kind of just like sits at his desk and cuts and pastes a version of that statement in response to every inquiry. It tells you nothing. But that aside, the truth is this new revelation really shouldn't be that surprising. I mean, we have long known that Trump and Epstein were friends for more than 15 years, including much of the time Epstein was involved in sex trafficking underaged girls. And for Trump, this reporting is yet another thing he will have to try and explain away. It also helps us understand why the Trump administration has been obsessively and aggressively trying to get out of releasing more Epstein information. They have cited concerns about privacy for Epstein's victims, even as members of Congress have said all that information can and should be redacted while releasing the rest of the files. Of course it should be. House Speaker Mike Johnson has also cited victims privacy to explain why he is resisting efforts to release the files. We want maximum transparency. We also understand the other part of.
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John Brennan
That duty is that we have to protect innocent victims.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
Okay, now that's the line you hear with a straight face from Trump and many of his allies. It's not about protecting Trump, everyone. It's about protecting the victims. But that excuse really doesn't hold a lot of water at all. I mean, for starters, one of the things Trump has offered his supporters as a concession is a call to release a much narrower collection of documents from the grand jury investigations of Epstein. Those documents not only have less information than the full Epstein investigation, they're also harder to release. But, and here's the important part, those grand jury documents also include information about Epstein's victims. So releasing them instead of the full files because of concern for the victims makes absolutely no sense. Their argument makes no sense. In fact, one of the things the Justice Department is required to do in order to release those documents is to notify all the victims who might be impacted by the release. But this week, two separate federal judges told Trump's lawyers that the court has not received any letters on behalf of the victims. In other words, basically, despite claiming that they're very concerned About Epstein's victims. The Trump administration does not even appear to have taken the legally required step of reaching out to those victims who could be impacted if these files are released, if the grand jury files are released. And Trump has repeatedly shown us he doesn't care about child sex trafficking victims in general outside of this. I mean. In April, the Trump administration cut grants that fund court appointed advocates for abused children. In May, the Trump administration announced it was getting rid of a Justice Department task force that targets human traffickers. And this last week, Trump gutted a State Department office that works to combat human trafficking around the world. In other words, Trump only seems to care about child sex trafficking victims when it helps him keep the Epstein files from coming out. That's pretty much the only time he's used to offering flimsy excuses for his behavior and getting away with it. That's what he does. But this time, he is facing far more opposition than I think almost anyone would have expected. And for all of the concern that Democrats would not have any way to exert power while in the minority, and it is hard, we're seeing that they actually can still play a big role in holding him and his administration accountable. I'm joined now by Pennsylvania Congresswoman Summer Lee, who you just saw earlier, who introduced this subpoena today. She's the ranking member on the Oversight Subcommittee on Federal Law Enforcement. It's great to be here. You've had a hell of a day. So thank you so much for being here. So a lot has happened today, and I just tried to outline it. The full oversight committee said is going ahead with the subpoena. What happens next?
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Stephen Cheung
Well, next, after. After Comer signs it. Right? He said it. He has to sign it. He signed the one for Maxwell within 24 hours. So he says that we expect it. Then the DOJ has to release those files to the federal Law enforcement ranking subcommittee to the minority and majority, and we go from there. But right now, what we asked for were the unredacted complete fouls. Aside from the First Amendment, there were other amendments to, you know, try to change the language, to try to give the DOJ a little bit of wiggle room. That failed. They have to give us the complete, unredacted files.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
Do you have any sense? You may or may not. But for people who are watching, who may not have voted for you may not like me either, how long this could take, like, how long until the subcommittee might have these files so that.
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Stephen Cheung
I don't know the answer to. Right. So we know that we're going to be out. Right. We're leaving today. They were so hell bent on making sure that we didn't subpoena them that they cancel session early. So we're gone until, you know, we come back in September. But again, if he's able to move to sign the subpoenas from earlier this week's subcommittee hearings, we expect that he's going to sign these ones just as quickly. And I don't know why they wouldn't be able to give them to us relatively immediately. They exist. They have for a long time. They have them.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
So not until September. But you could get them.
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Stephen Cheung
But we can get them earlier. The committee could get them earlier. We just won't have any actionable fate. But absolutely why would we not be able to get them?
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
One of the things I just mentioned is Republicans added, I know you worked with many of them today, but they added subpoenas for people like Bill and Hillary Clinton, James Comey, Loretta Lynch. What do you think that tells us what is that all about?
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Stephen Cheung
We know what it is, right? They are desperate for this narrative that Democrats are trying to protect their own and we're trying to protect our own. But that's what they misunderstand about us, right? At the end of the day, if someone has participated in child sex trafficking, I don't care if they're a prince or a president or if they're anybody in between, they should be held accountable. Democrats aren't saying that. Oh well, we're afraid of who might be on it.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
No.
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Stephen Cheung
So them bringing in Bill Clinton right now, it doesn't cost us anything if that's what they want to do. Right. So again, they were just trying to make this a both sides thing to make up for the fact that they are being hypocrites, that they said that this is what they want. You saw, right? We read off all of the members of the subcommittee who called very publicly for these files to be released. We saw that they ran on this in the last election. From Trump on down to all of his folks, they all ran on this. So they're just trying to distract from the fact that they're being hypocrites, that they know that they're choosing to protect Donald Trump over the very victims that they keep giving lip service to, that they're choosing to protect Donald Trump over transparency for the American people, that they're calling for the very base and all Americans of all different parties. And that's really what that was about I mentioned.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
There's been a lot of things happen today, you're involved in a lot of them. There's a lot of reporting. So the Wall Street Journal reported today and the New York Times matched them that Trump was told by Pam Bondi, the attorney general back in May that he appeared multiple times in the Epstein files. We don't know what that looks like or how he appeared. It does tell us maybe why he's freaked out about them being released. There has been a conspiracy theory that there are people from the deep state and lots of Democrats. We don't know who's mentioned, by the way, in these files. Is that detail giving any Republicans you've been working with who have been big supporters of Trump any pause about moving forward with continuing to pursue the subpoena and look at this information?
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Stephen Cheung
No, I could only imagine. I mean, they put on a big show about trying to keep us from this moment, a big one. So I'd imagine that they expect some of their own to be on there. But even still, at the end of the day, I think this has also just been a thing of if their lord Trump says no, then they stop, right? Then they say how high. And I think that when we talked about, you know, I've been talking earlier about, well, is this a down breaking moment? And I don't think that it necessarily came from, you know, the Pam Bondi reveal or even, you know, what we were able to do in the subcommittee today. I think it came from the people all over this country. The American people rejected the attention economy. You know, they have so much being thrown at them right now, you know, from the White House, you know, to the reconciliation bill, the tax cuts and Medicaid cuts and SNAP and so much departments being dismantled, the Supreme Court, all of these things. But yet they chose to keep their attention and their focus on this, not to extract from those other things, to subtract from it. But they chose to keep focus on this because they are tired of being told that there is a secret set of rules for one group of people and something that other people have to live by. So they broke the dam and that was their base.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
That is true. Congresswoman Summerlee, I know if things happen, you're going to be on recess. You got to be back with your district. But if you learn more, I hope you'll come back. We absolutely will. We will be here all through August. You can come back and visit us so far. We'll be right. Thank you so much for joining me tonight. I really appreciate your time. Okay. The woman who knows more than anyone what dirt may lie in the so called Epstein Files, is currently serving a lengthy prison sentence. But she's about to get a visit from Todd Blanche, the second in command at the Justice Department, who happens to also have very deep ties to Donald Trump. We'll dig into all of that with someone who once worked with Blanche and many, many different people, former U.S. attorney Preet Bharara. He's joining us in just 90 seconds.
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Nicole Wallace
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access. Add free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
As promised. Joining me now is Preet Bharara. He was the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York until he refused to take a call from Donald Trump, who then fired him. I think you all remember the story. Okay, Preet, there are so many legal stories today. I often want a legal degree. I often want a law degree. But here you are. I'm grateful you're here.
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Preet Bharara
Don't do it. Don't do it.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
It's too late now. That's why you're here. Okay, let me just start. It's trying to, we're trying to make sense of how these pieces fit together. Right. And if they fit together. So the Wall Street Journal and the. They may not. The Wall Street Journal and the New York Times both reported today that Trump was told back in May that his name was in the Epstein files. Now we don't know how they're in the Epstein files, how many times. That's not information we have. He hasn't disclosed that he was aware of that. He's been asked about it. What do you think about that?
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Preet Bharara
Look, you know, I don't know what the legal ramifications are or may be. That's complicated. It remains to be seen. But Donald Trump and the people around him have been caught up in a substantial hypocrisy. And that's happened before time and time again over the last 10 years since he's been on the political stage. But it hasn't mattered. But here it matters because his base has really, really wanted the release of these files. And by the way, you know, basically the way it played out is Trump and his people kept saying over and over and over again, we're going to release the files. We're going to release the files. And then someone whispers to him, Mr. President, your name is in the files. And then the response is, we're not going to release the files. And then someone basically says, well, people are upset that we're not releasing the files. We need to look like we're trying to release the files. And so they make this motion to a court to release grand jury information, also knowing full well, because they have smart lawyers working with them, that a court is very unlikely to release grand jury material for a lot of legal reasons and prudential reasons. So they have someone to blame about that. And that may be true with respect to making scapegoats out of certain people at the Southern District of New York. But, you know, it sort of reminds me of, except without the comedy of a scene from Veep where the vice president Julie Louis Dreyfus character is being hounded by a scandal. And she keeps saying over and over and over again, I want full disclosure. I want full disclosure. And then when she's alone with her staff, she says, and of course, by full disclosure, what I mean is partial disclosure light. And that's what's happening here. Except it's not funny.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
It is not funny, although I do love that show. And now I want to pull up that clip. Somebody on the Internet will, or maybe we'll use it later this week. Let me ask you about two things that may or may not be related, but the timing of them doesn't feel coincidental. I mean, Todd Blanche, who's the deputy attorney general who you believe used to work with, is reportedly trying to set up a meeting in the next few days with Ghislaine Maxwell in jail? We don't know what he intends in that conversation, but. Well, first let me ask you, what is the scope of what he could offer and what he would want in return in terms of what powers he has?
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Preet Bharara
So it's very unclear. It has. So, you know, Todd is a good lawyer and a smart lawyer, and I used to work with him, and I consider him a friend. He is under an enormous amount of pressure, politically and otherwise, to make this right. For Donald Trump, his former client and now his putative boss, there is a lot of pressure to place blame on someone, to try to get answers to a lot of different questions that sometimes are not answerable because the people that you're trying to get the answers from, as may be the case with Ghislaine Maxwell, are liars or are not credible or who haven't taken responsibility for their actions. You know, ordinarily, and I'm sure this was the case at the start of the start of the matter, the investigation and the prosecution. You investigate someone and you're on the cusp of indicting them or you indict them, there's an opportunity for that person to cooperate and to provide information. And it seems to be that's the kind of thing that Mr. Blanche wants to get information or, you know, evidence against other people. I don't know who those people might be since, you know, Jeffrey Epstein has died. But you can't get that information in a productive way unless the person you're trying to get the information from is credible or unless that person has taken responsibility for their actions. Neither of those things have happened here. In fact, you know, Ms. Maxwell has been charged with perjury in connection with depositions taken some years ago. So she's not credible. She's not wanted to play ball before. It's not clear what other information she's going to give about people who are more culpable than she is. And so it seems like the indisha are, I hate to say it, that this act is more performative than substantive.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
There is also the other thing I was thinking about is that there is the Republican House Oversight Committee subpoenaed Maxwell today for an August 11th prison interview. So it feels, the timing feels a little sketchy here. We don't know, but that's the thing I was noting. Let me ask you about something else that has been in the news and is particularly galling. I will say former prosecutor Mauren Comey, who you hired, I believe, used to work with you, was summarily fired just last week without any explanation. I mean, I think she had. She was involved, very involved in the prosecutions of Epstein Maxwell. So I think it's pretty obvious why she was fired. Not much as, I guess, surprising these days, this feels particularly in our faces. What do you make of it? What should people make of it?
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Preet Bharara
Look, let me first say that Maureen Comey was fired, I believe, because her last name is Comey. And I have reasons to believe that, number two, she was an exemplary prosecutor in the U.S. attorney's office in the Southern District of New York. She got hired on her merits. She was a leader in the office, and she was responsible for some very seminal prosecutions. And by the way, arguably, during this whole saga of Jeffrey Epstein's crimes and bad conduct, she's the most responsible for bringing him to account. And also Ghislaine Maxwell to account. So of all the prosecutors anywhere. She deserves, by definition, given the results, the most credit. I believe, and a lot of people believe that if you're a civil, if you have civil protections as a non career prosecutor, I'm sorry, as a career prosecutor, non political prosecutor, you cannot be fired without some process. I don't know if she'll take legal action or not. I hope she does. The fact that she gets fired in the midst of all of this, I think is suspicious. The fact that she gets fired without any explanation other than the citation of Article 2 of the Constitution, which doesn't tell you anything about the reason she was fired, I think is also problematic. At the end of the day, I think they will perhaps regret the decision they made to fire her. It is a very difficult thing to fire a line prosecutor without cause. Whether or not it's unlawful, it's not a good idea. It's not a smart idea. It ruins, I think, morale in an office. And I think it's not a thing that we want to have happen in our Justice Department.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
Preet Bharara, you've worked with Todd Blanche and also Maureen Comey. You're sort of like the Forrest Gump of legal experts and also very wise. Thank you so much for joining us, as always.
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Preet Bharara
Thank you. I'm going to go get some shrimp.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
There you go. Thanks. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but after we're going to talk about the Trump administration's latest effort to distract from the growing Epstein scandal and how it involves former CIA Director John Brennan. He's going to join me here live. But first, White House reporters looking for straight answers from Tulsi Gabbard today on said Epstein distraction were left pretty empty handed. So I'm going to take a crack at answering a few of their questions myself right after a quick break. Nothing tells you just how desperate the Trump administration is to change the subject and how desperate the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, is to get back into her boss's good graces. Then the fact that today she was trotted out to the White House briefing room. Now while Gabbard came in with a lot of conspiratorial fanfare about her sloppy and misleading rewrite of the role of Russia around the 2016 election. She really didn't have much to say to direct questions from reporters. I'm not asking you to take my word for it. I'm asking you and the media to conduct honest journalism and the American people to see for yourself. I'm telling you to look at the evidence look at the evidence and you will know the truth. The answer to that statement can very clearly be found throughout all of the documents. I mean, look, I've been in there. There are screens on either side of that podium. She could actually show what's in the documents. She could read key passages. Lots of options. But since Tulsi Gabbard didn't add much with her answers, I figured I'd take a shot. Why not? All right. Ed o', Keefe, CBS News, kick us off. The Senate Intelligence Committee spent several years looking into this and unanimously agreed in a bipartisan fashion, Secretary State Rubio was a member of that committee that there was no political interference. There was a years long Justice Department investigation into this as well that also concluded no political interference. So help us from a 50,000 foot level explain what do you now have that refutes those too? Well, Ed, what do I now have? What does she now have? The answer is nothing. There is nothing groundbreaking in what Gabbard put out. She and other members of the Trump administration are using cherry picked quotes to lazily rehash one of Donald Trump's favorite grievances. And to your point, Ed, the information has been combed through before. I mean the years long bipartisan Senate report that came out under Marco Rubio. Yes, he was the former chairman, now he's the Secretary of State. Found that Russia did try and meddle in the 2016 election and that no witnesses saw an attempt to pressure or politicize the process of how the intelligence community came to its conclusion. Then there was the three year investigation by Special Counsel John Durham. Remember that one appointed by Trump's own Attorney General Bill Barr and cheered on by MAGA World that also did not find a criminal conspiracy by the Obama administration to sabotage Trump. All right, Phil Wegman, RealClear Politics. Go ahead. How do you respond to critics like former President Obama and also others on the Hill who say that the administration is conflating apples and oranges here, Conflating allegations of actual hacking of voter machines and allegations of interference generally. Well, I would say that is spot on apples and oranges. Is it? It is. I mean, she is right, Gabbard. That is that before and after the election, the intelligence community assessed that Moscow did not hack or change votes or manipulate VOT system. So that was a concern at one point. Even her own memo makes clear that when she talks about Russia's failure to hack the election, that's what she's talking about. But where she's incredibly misleading is when she talks about the assessment related to the Kremlin's well known influence campaign using social media, paid ads and propaganda that was intended to hurt Clinton's campaign and help Trump's influencing voters, which they did attempt to do. And hacking systems are clearly different. All right, CNN's Kaitlan Collins. What would you say to people who believe that you're only releasing these documents.
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Governor Laura Kelly
Now to improve your standing with the.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
President after he said that your intelligence assessments were wrong? Well, I'm not sure how Gabbard would answer that question. I mean, she dodged it in the briefing today. But I would say, is there any other reason? I mean, we know that Gabbard has been on the outside of Trump's inner circle for a while now because he didn't like the intelligence assessment she made in a video she made. She's got to prove her loyalty somehow. This is probably it. All right, coming up, the Trump administration's umpteenth attempt to turn the page on Epstein relies on some of Trump's old perceived foes, including former CIA Director John Brennan. And he joins me live in studio. Breaking news.
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Preet Bharara
Brooke Singman of Fox News Digital has discovered exclusively that the FBI is now investigating the former CIA director John Brennan.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
So it started earlier this month with a referral from Trump CIA Director John Ratcliffe to the FBI claiming that Obama's CIA Director John Brennan and his FBI director James Comey had somehow manipulated evidence in the investigation into Russia's meddling in the 2016 election, which is more years ago. I would just note then today, Trump's Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard said that Brennan and Comey and other Obama administration officials were part of a years long coup and treasonous conspiracy against Trump, claiming that Russia never actually meant to help Trump win. That was just a conspiracy to make Trump look bad. That all sounds very serious. That is until you actually look at any of the details that have been combed over for many, many years. I mean, in 2020, the Republican controlled Senate Intelligence Committee, chaired by none then senator turned Trump's current Secretary of State Marco Rubio, released a bipartisan report concluding that Russia did in fact interfere in the 2016 election to benefit Trump. In 2023, the special counsel Trump's Attorney general appointed to look into this exact conspiracy theory, John Durham, reported there was no criminal conspiracy by Obama administration officials to sabotage Trump. As the Washington Post fact checker put it, Tulsi Gabbard's seditious conspiracy claim is based on thin gruel. Very well put. But as unfounded as these allegations appear to be the Trump administration is still running with them and that means real people might get hurt. James Comey and John Brennan now under.
- [29:35]
Nicole Wallace
Criminal investigation related to the Trump Russia probe.
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Congresswoman Summer Lee
Do you want to see these two guys behind bars? I think they're very dishonest people. I think they're crooked as hell and maybe they have to pay a price. Joining me now is former director of the CIA and MSNBC senior National Security and Intelligence analyst John Brennan. Director Brennan, thank you for being with us tonight. Thank you, Nancy. I know you have been through a lot, but this is still a lot. I just wanted to, I tried to cover a lot of what has been debunked and the conspiracy theories here, including the 2020 Senate Intelligence Report, the 2023 Durham Report, all of which you participated in, the intelligence community and people who participated in. What did I miss that people should understand here?
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John Brennan
Well, it's more what Tulsi Gabbard and John Radcliffe are missing, which is are the facts. And the fact that Donald Trump now is saying that Barack Obama was the head of this conspiracy is just so absurd. Now I certainly understand why Donald Trump has such a deep seated inferiority complex vis a vis Barack Obama, given their respective records. And also as quite remarkable the coincidence of timing between the release of these documents that seem to have been put together just in a very short period of time as compared to these multi year investigations and reviews that were done about this issue and the furor that is around the Epstein files. So again, I think it's very suspicious as far as the motivations here. But what is particularly appalling and I think insulting to the intelligence profession is the misrepresentation of what was in that intelligence community assessment. And it's incontrovertible that the Russians tried to influence the 2016 election by using its information operations. They were hurting Hillary Clinton, they were trying to help Donald Trump, they were trying to undermine the integrity of the election. And what they're saying now, Tulsi Gabbard and John Radcliffe, they're pointing to this issue of that the Russians did not alter the votes. Well, we said that very explicitly in the intelligence community assessment. We said that the Russians had accessed a number of voter registration systems and email accounts of electoral boards, whatever else, but they didn't appear to have the ability to access those systems that could actually manipulate and alter the votes or affect the vote tabulation. So they keep saying these things, making these allegations that are without foundation at all and claiming that there was this vast conspiracy, that we were in fact deceiving the American people and engaged in this coup. And so therefore, again, it's very clear in my mind that there's a political motivation for this. And unfortunately, it's an insult to the intelligence profession because there were so many people who worked on this intelligence community assessment that was done to make sure that people understood exactly what the Russians did in 2016 and what they were capable of doing in the future, which is why President Obama asked us to put this together. He didn't tell us what to write. I didn't write that report, nor did Jim Clappert. We had the experts, those who were steeped in understanding Russia, understanding exactly their capabilities, what they do on the COVID influence front and other things. And so therefore, again, I feel very confident that if people take a look at this, and I wish Tulsi Gabbard and John Radcliffe would read the assessment. Tulsi Gabbard, you know, she may be impaired on the ethics front, certainly, but she's not impaired on the intellect front. And so I can only presume that she is doing this intentionally, intentionally mischaracterizing, misrepresenting and lying about what she has found.
- [33:14]
Congresswoman Summer Lee
Don't you think the timing is around the Epstein files and changing the subject?
- [33:19]
John Brennan
It is a remarkable coincidence, isn't it? Yes, it's unfortunate. You know, they have now disinterred an intelligence community assessment from eight and a half years ago and are holding it out now. Like there's this great expose that just in a few short months or weeks, they've been able to pull out information that is contrary to all the findings of the Mueller investigation, the Senate Bipartisan Intelligence Committee report, the Durham investigation, all of these things which validated the findings and conclusions. But again, that intelligence community assessment made very clear what it is that we found the Russians were doing and what we found that they did not do, which was they did not alter the votes that actually were cast in that 2016 presidential election.
- [34:04]
Congresswoman Summer Lee
I just, I mean, I was there just responsible for releasing things, not any of this. And I, President Obama wanted to make sure people understood, as you just said. And this is not something that the Russians see through a partisan lens in the sense of they could do it again many times. So everybody should have this information, which I think is important to know. Director Brennan, I'm so grateful that you are here. You never shy away from telling your story, and I think that so speaks to you as well. So thank you again for joining us today. I really appreciate. Okay, so NBC just found some images that illustrate. More images that illustrate the deep ties between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. We're going to show them to you in a few minutes. But first, Epstein is just one of the issues Americans want more information about. We are also going to speak with a Democratic governor who won twice in the state Donald Trump won. She joins me with what I will get, what I will take to get to what it will take to get to Democratic voters to the poll this November and beyond. Talk about all of that after a quick break. Take a look at this poll from the economist in YouGov that came out just yesterday. About two thirds of Americans, 65%, feel that things in the United States right now are, quote, out of control. And really, I mean, who can blame them? Along those lines, the poll also finds that 55% think the country is currently off on the wrong track. And yet another 55% disapprove of the way Donald Trump has been handling his job as president. Now, I'm just going to go with a hunch here and say all of those things are probably connected and may be linked to the fact that Trump's big legislative achievement is a bill that, among many things, gives tax breaks to the ultra rich and takes away health care for millions of Americans, which I should add is also extremely unpopular among everyday people. But it reminds unclear how all of this will translate to the ballot box. I mean, it should. But the first big test will come this November with governor's races in New Jersey and Virginia, followed by the midterm elections in 2026, which also include 36 additional governors races, including in states like Kansas, which Trump won by 16 points last year and where the current Democratic governor and the head of the Democratic Governors Association, Laura Kelly, has been relentless in emphasizing the impacts of his big, ugly bill. So how did Democrats win these governors races? Well, thankfully, I have just the person to ask. Joining me now is Kansas Governor Laura Kelly. Governor Kelly, it's great to see you. I have to start. We like to give a little hope sometimes on this show. Everybody needs it. You have won twice in a state Trump won. How?
- [36:41]
Governor Laura Kelly
Well, you know, I was running at a time initially in 2018 when Kansas was in a world of hurt left over from the brownback tax experiment, which really devastated our state. I ran on a I will fix it and I will be no drama, no nonsense. We will just get the job done. We'll start funding our schools again. We'll build our roads again. We'll attract business and jobs to Kansas. We will take a mess and we will fix it and make Kansas better than it's ever been. And, and we delivered on that. And I think that's why I was able to secure a second term. You know, I told people what I was going to do, we did it. And so they gave me a chance to spend another four years trying to get even more things done for Kansas.
- [37:34]
Congresswoman Summer Lee
Now, I think because of that, in part, you're also the chair of the Democratic Governors Association. Not totally willingly, but you're doing it. So thank you for that. And there are two big governors races coming up in November in New Jersey and Virginia right around the corner from here. There are different races that happen in every governor's race. But what are the issues, central issues that are going to drive the outcome in those races at this point that you expect?
- [38:02]
Governor Laura Kelly
Well, I have no doubt, you know, ordinarily, you know, I try to focus and I recommend to governors that you focus on issues that are pertinent to your state. And I still think that, that Abigail Spamberger needs to do that in Virginia and Mikey Sherrill needs to do that in New Jersey. But there's no doubt that now, with everything that's coming down from the federal government, that they are going to have to focus on some of those issues and reassure New Jerseyans and Virginians that they've got what it takes to work with the Trump administration on things that will move their states forward, but also fight back on the things that won't and really stand for the people of New Jersey and Virginia. You know, things like Medicaid expansion, you know, are critical for those states and every other state. You know, we're seeing cuts now to our public school system. That's going to impact a lot of different things, but particularly I'm concerned about the impact it will have on special education. You know, in a state like Virginia where you have a tremendous number of federal employees. Employees. You know, the whole Doge purge that happened a few months ago has a really serious impact on the state of Virginia. And Abigail Spamberger needs to convince people of Virginia that she's the one who can restore sanity and restore economic stability to the state of Virginia.
- [39:36]
Congresswoman Summer Lee
We only have about a minute left. And I noticed, and I'm not surprised by this, you did not mention Jeffrey Epstein, despite the fact that it is covering newspapers and media all across the country, leading to self combustion in the Republican Party. But you're very in touch with these races. Are you seeing that issue impact these races or it's really not impacting these races at this point?
- [39:59]
Governor Laura Kelly
I don't think that's what governors are going to focus on. You know, we're really going to focus on the issues that matter the most to the people in our states of the fact, you know, that Democrat governors don't have a Project 2025 handbook telling us how we how to do what we need to do for our states, but that each Democratic governor is really looking at their state, what their state needs and what they can bring to it to make a difference and what they need to stand up for in relationship to the federal government. So, and I think we've got some outstanding candidates this year in New Jersey and Virginia. But then next year going into 2026, when, like you said, we've got 36 races going there, I think it's incumbent upon the people of the United States to stay tuned, stay engaged, keep these issues at the forefront, and then make their feelings known in the ballot box. You know, we know from polling that a lot of what's happening right now is very unpopular. Whether you look at issues like immigration or the tariffs, certainly Medicaid expansion, mentioned the SNAP cuts, all of the other kinds of things that are really being thrust upon the states are very unpopular. We just need to make sure that people continue to voice their protests and then they carry that out in the ballot box this November in 25, and then next November in 26.
- [41:26]
Congresswoman Summer Lee
Governor Kelly, thank you so much for taking the time this evening. I really appreciate it. Okay, coming up next, it turns out Jeffrey Epstein was invited to Donald Trump's second wedding back in 1993. We've got the proof from the NBC archives, and that's coming up next. Donald Trump has tried awfully hard to downplay his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein over the years. Feels like every day we're learning new details of just how close they really were. The latest drop in that bucket came from cnn, which revealed with newly uncovered photos that Epstein had earned a coveted invitation to Trump's 1993 wedding to Marla Maples. Well, our team did some digging, too, in the NBC News archives today, and it turns out there's also footage of Jeffrey Epstein from that wedding. There he is strolling in amongst the guests for Trump's reception at the Plaza Hotel. But you barely knew him, right? There's also some footage of Trump and Epstein chatting away at a Victoria's Secret Runway show in 1999. It's another angle on the video CNN revealed last night. But here's the thing. We don't really need more photos or videos of Trump and Epstein together to know the two men were extremely close. It's already pretty evident. What people do really want to know is the nature of their relationship and why, exactly. Trump's name turns up multiple times in the truckload of files related to Jeffrey Epstein, which he's so hesitant to release. That does it for me. Today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue Sky, Instagram and TikTok.
- [43:00]
Nicole Wallace
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with actor Jeff Daniels.
- [43:09]
Congresswoman Summer Lee
When you check out of the Ambition Hotel, you kind of go, okay, now I just want to do stuff that keeps me interested.
- [43:17]
Nicole Wallace
The Best People with Nicole Wallace listen now. For early access, access ad, free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.