Rogue pardon spree exposes Trump's political games and actual indifference to crimes

Summary

The Briefing with Jen Psaki Episode: Rogue Pardon Spree Exposes Trump's Political Games and Actual Indifference to Crimes
Release Date: May 28, 2025

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Introduction: Unveiling Corruption in Culpepper County

Jen Psaki opens the episode by delving into a significant scandal from Culpepper County, Virginia. For years, residents believed Sheriff Scott Jenkins was a steadfast lawman. However, investigations revealed that Jenkins was involved in a substantial bribery scheme.

Reporter Coverage:

• [01:25] "Culpepper county residents saw Scott Jenkins as their elected sheriff, their local lawman holding the line in Culpepper. But behind the scenes, we now know Jenkins was collecting bribes for years..."
• Jenkins accepted over $110,000 in bribes from ten individuals, including two undercover FBI agents. These bribes were often handed over in cash, such as a $5,000 check paired with the issuance of an auxiliary deputy badge.

Trump's Controversial Pardon: Jenkins Freed Despite Convictions

Despite Jenkins' conviction on charges of conspiracy, fraud, and criminal bribery, President Donald Trump issued a full and unconditional pardon to the former sheriff.

Host Commentary:

• [02:17] "But today, Culpepper County's corrupt bribe-taking sheriff is a free man—all thanks to Donald Trump."

Motive Behind the Pardon:

• Jenkins is identified as part of the MAGA faithful with ties to Trump World and the Claremont Institute, a conservative think tank.
• Trump's pardon attorney emphasized the pledge, tweeting, "No MAGA left behind," highlighting the administration's favoritism towards MAGA-affiliated individuals.

Pattern of Pardons: Ignoring Actual Fraudsters

Psaki highlights that Jenkins is not an isolated case. Trump has a history of pardoning individuals involved in significant fraud, often those aligned with his political base, while ignoring legitimate cases against his opponents.

Notable Cases:

• Paul Walzack: Convicted of withholding over $10 million from employee paychecks meant for Social Security and Medicare. Trump pardoned Walzack shortly after Walzack's mother attended a $1 million fundraiser dinner.
• In total, 13 individuals pardoned during Trump's first term were involved in Medicare and Medicaid fraud totaling over $1.6 billion.

Host's Critique:

• [05:58] "Anytime they are asked about their highly unpopular cuts to these programs, we have not cut Medicaid. What we're doing, Margaret, is working on fraud, waste, and abuse."

Expert Insights: Abuse of Pardon Power

Liz Oyer, former U.S. Pardon Attorney, and Norm Eisen, former Obama ethics czar, discuss the implications of Trump's pardon actions.

Key Points from Liz Oyer:

• [16:09] "One is the timing of it... someone who has not even started serving their sentence would be considered for a pardon."
• Pardons are typically reserved for those who have shown remorse and exhausted all judicial appeals—criteria Jenkins did not meet.

Norm Eisen's Perspective:

• [17:25] "It is a classic example of corruption. So what stood out to me is a White House embracing corruption."
• Emphasizes the insult to law enforcement and the judicial system caused by such pardons.

Ed Martin: The New Pardon Attorney and His Implications

Trump appointed Ed Martin as the new Pardon Attorney, a move seen as a shift towards politicizing the office.

Liz Oyer's Concerns:

• [19:35] "Ed Martin... has a long history of supporting MAGA causes. He just tweeted today, 'No MAGA left behind,' reflecting his intentions with pardon power."
• Martin's appointment sidelines ordinary candidates awaiting pardons, often ordinary Americans who deserve clemency.

Norm Eisen Adds:

• [21:17] Discusses how Martin is also leading the "weaponization task force," targeting perceived adversaries rather than upholding justice.

Trump's Use of Pardon Power: A Growing Concern

Psaki and her guests express deep concerns about Trump's expansion and abuse of the pardon power, viewing it as a tool to reward allies and undermine the justice system.

Norm Eisen's Analysis:

• [23:13] "He's using the pardon power in a way that no one else has really done before him."
• Highlights the potential for continued abuse and the undermining of legitimate pardons.

Conspiracy Theories and FBI Scrutiny

The episode shifts focus to the proliferation of conspiracy theories within the MAGA movement, particularly targeting the FBI.

Patriot Front Case:

• Claims propagated by figures like Joe Rogan and Elon Musk suggest that Patriot Front, a known white nationalist group, is a fake FBI front.
• Despite these theories, local reports indicate the continued existence and activities of Patriot Front, debunking conspiracy claims.

FBI Leadership under Scrutiny:

• Kash Patel and Dan Bongino, both known for promoting conspiracy theories, now heading the FBI, face challenges in credibility as their theories are undermined by real-world events and actions.

NPR's Legal Battle Against Trump Administration

Addressing the Trump administration's attempts to curb media independence, NPR has initiated a lawsuit against an executive order aimed at ending public funding for major media organizations.

Ted Boutros, NPR's attorney, explains:

• [39:56] "What's at stake, Jen, is the First Amendment, the independence of the press..."
• The lawsuit seeks a preliminary injunction to prevent the executive order, arguing it constitutes viewpoint discrimination and retaliation against NPR's coverage.

Implications:

• The case underscores the broader attack on press freedom, with potential repercussions for the autonomy of local and national media outlets.

Interview with Susan Rice: Trump's Foreign Policy Missteps

In a segment following a brief ad, Psaki interviews Susan Rice, former U.N. Ambassador and National Security Advisor, about Trump's handling of the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

Key Insights from Susan Rice:

• [28:27] "I'm deeply concerned by it, Jen, for a variety of reasons."
• Criticizes Trump for undermining the National Security Council, leading to inadequate support for Ukraine and emboldening Putin's aggressive actions.
• Highlights Trump's failure to provide necessary security guarantees to Ukraine, directly contributing to intensified Russian assaults.

Rice's Concerns:

• [31:20] Expresses alarm over the dismantling of the NSC staff and Trump's disregard for informed policy-making, which she believes endangers U.S. national security.

Conclusion: The Erosion of Institutional Integrity

Jen Psaki wraps up the episode by reflecting on the cumulative impact of Trump's actions on institutional integrity, from the misuse of pardon power to attacks on media independence and foreign policy failures.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jen Psaki: "When people do this stuff, it comes at the expense of the American people. And I don't think they're going to tolerate it." [19:03]

• Liz Oyer: "Pardons are very, very rarely, if ever granted to people who have abused the public trust in the way that this sheriff did." [16:09]

• Norm Eisen: "What's at stake here? It's the First Amendment, the independence of the press, the Public Broadcasting Act..." [39:56]

• Susan Rice: "He is not governing and not using the apparatus of the National Security Council and the national security agencies in a manner that serves the national interest." [31:20]

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This episode of The Briefing with Jen Psaki provides a comprehensive examination of President Trump's controversial use of pardon power, its implications on justice and institutional trust, and the broader impact on American democracy and foreign policy.

Transcript

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[Host]

There's a lot to talk about with pardons, and we're going to get into all of it tonight. But I want to start tonight with a story that is about a pardon. And it's a story out of Culpepper County, Virginia. Now, for the first few years, that county in Virginia, it's only about an hour and a half from here, has been rocked by a pretty big scandal, pretty huge one, actually, after it was discovered that their local sheriff had been accepting bribes. Now, just to give you a sense of the scope of this story, here's how the local NBC station in the area has been reporting on it for years.

[Reporter]

Culpepper county residents saw Scott Jenkins as their elected sheriff, their local lawman holding the line in Culpepper. But behind the scenes, we now know Jenkins was collecting bribes for years, some for his campaign, some just for him. Investigators testified. In this video, Jenkins is accepting a $5,000 check from a Virginia businessman.

[Host]

I will make it official with a badge.

[Reporter]

Seconds later, Jenkins rewards the man with an auxiliary deputy badge. In all, federal prosecutors Prove Jenkins took $110,000 in bribes from 10 men, including two undercover FBI agents from 2015 to 2023, in many cases, caught on undercover video accepting the money, each of them sworn in as an auxiliary deputy and given a badge allowing them enhanced gun rights and, as some testified, the hope of being able to get out of speeding tickets.

[Host]

I mean, there was a lot in there, including, okay, so I'M going to make it official with a bag. Literally a bag of cash. That was what just happened in that clip. So basically, the sheriff in Culpepper county had been taking bribes for years, as you just saw in that coverage, in the form of both campaign donations and cash in the bag, like the one the guy referenced. And as a side note, I mean, this is one of the stunning parts of this. He's doing it in such a. It's so out in the open. It all kind of feels like a poorly scripted budget crime movie. Everything you just watched. And there's more. Now, in exchange for those bribes, that sheriff would deputize people handing sheriff's badges out to rich businessmen who wanted to get out of speeding tickets and at least one convicted felon who wanted his gun rights restored. That was the deal on that one. It was basically a textbook case of bribery and abuse of power caught on video and photos. Which is why the FBI charged that sheriff with conspiracy, fraud and multiple counts of criminal bribery. It's also why he was convicted of those crimes and sentenced to 10 years in federal prison. 10 years. But today, Culpepper County's corrupt bribe taking sheriff, that is a tongue twister, is a free man. All thanks to Donald Trump. Because the president just issued a full and unconditional pardon to former Culpepper County Sheriff Scott Jenkins. Why? Well, it might have something to do with the fact that Scott Jenkins is part of the MAGA faithful and definitely has ties to Trump World. I mean, he's also a fellow at the far right Claremont Institute, a conservative think tank that employs several former Trump officials. So he definitely has ties to them. Now, after his pardon was announced, Trump's pardon attorney put an even finer point on it, tweeting, no MAGA left behind. Subtlety has never really been these guys strong suit, has it? Now? Trump pardoning random corrupt MAGA officials, which is what this is a case of, is a scandal unto itself. And Jenkins is far from the only example. But it's especially galling when you consider the people Trump actually does want to prosecute. I mean, it was just last week when Trump called for investigations into several celebrities, Bruce Springsteen, Beyonce, Oprah, claiming that their endorsements of Kamala Harris during the 2024 election somehow constituted illegal campaign contributions. Now, all of those claims appeared to be completely baseless, and forgive me for this one, ludicrously Trumpy. But if Donald Trump is going to claim he really, really cares about illegal campaign contributions, well then maybe he shouldn't have just pardoned a corrupt Sheriff who took illegal campaign bribes to give unqualified people positions of power. Maybe, maybe not. And it's not just this one case. I mean, on almost every issue Trump claims to care about, there's a pardon that proves he doesn't really care at all. For instance, Trump and his presidential bff, you know who I'm talking about, have spent the last several months claiming they are concerned about so called waste and fraud in America's entitlement programs. We've covered here on this show how Trump and Musk's changes to Social Security have made it significantly harder for seniors to get help with their benefits, all in the name of rooting out fraud. We've also covered how Trump's big ugly bill in Congress would make dramatic cuts to Medicaid and Medicare. Also in the name, according to them, of course, rooting out fraud. I mean, just listen to the way they talk about this. Basically, anytime they are asked about their highly unpopular cuts to these programs, we have not cut Medicaid. What we're doing, Margaret, is working on fraud, waste and abuse.

[Expert]

We're also identifying shocking levels of incompetence.

[Commentator]

And probable fraud in the Social Security program.

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[Commentator]

Let's say Social Security didn't send out their checks. My mother in law, who's 94, she wouldn't call and complain. A fraudster always makes the loudest noise, screaming, yelling and complaining.

[Host]

I mean, that clip, we're not making any cuts is basically their message. It's all about finding fraud in their definition. And anyone who complains about it must be a fraudster themselves. Now, given their intense concern surrounding this issue, A spoken concern, I should say. You would think the Trump administration would be very sensitive about associating itself with anyone even remotely connected to actual entitlement fraud, right? No, of course not. Because last month Donald Trump pardoned this guy, Paul Walzack. And what was Paul Walzack convicted for? What was his crime? Here it is, from the New York Times. Between 2016 and 2019, Walzack withheld more than $10 million from the paychecks of his employees under the pretext of using it for their Social Security, Medicare and federal income taxes. Instead, he used some of the money to buy a $2 million yacht and to pay for travel and purchases at high end retailers, including Bergdorf Goodman and Cartier. In other words, this guy took money from the paychecks of his employees that was supposed to be paid into their Medicare and Social Security savings. It was their money and instead, he literally bought a yacht and shopped at Bergdorf. And today, the New York Times has new details about how the pardon for that fraudster came to be. The Times reports that Walzack submitted a pardon application to President Trump around Inauguration Day. Then his mother, and here's the key part, was invited to a $1 million person fundraiser dinner last month that promised face to face to Mr. Trump at his private Mar A Lago Club in Palm Beach, Florida. Less than three weeks after she attended the dinner, Mr. Trump signed a full and unconditional pardon, sparing Walzack from having to pay nearly $4.4 million in restitution and from reporting to prison for an 18 month prison sentence. So this guy is going to prison in part for his Social Security and Medicare tax fraud. Then his mom goes to a $1 million per plate mar a lago fundraiser, and three weeks later, poof, a pardon from Trump magically appears. Imagine that, how that works. I mean, it certainly seems like Donald Trump is totally okay with defrauding Social Security and Medicare as long as the people doing it are paying him. And all of this is to say nothing about all the fraudsters Trump pardoned in his first term. According to CBS news, at least 13 of the fraudsters Trump gave pardons or commutations to were convicted in cases involving more $1.6 billion of fraudulent claims filed with Medicare and Medicaid. So 13 people who committed more than a billion dollars worth of Medicare and Medicaid fraud were all pardoned by Donald Trump in his first term. And yet the cycle of his accusing his political opponents of fraud while letting off the actual fraudsters continues. You can see it over and over and over and over again. I mean, Trump is targeting New York Attorney General Tish James, investigating her over the allegation she falsified bank documents to get a favorable, which she says is baseless. But just today, Trump said he'll pardon two conservative reality TV stars, the Chrisleys, right there. You may recognize them from reality tv. They were convicted of actual bank fraud after they submitted falsified documents to get a loan, and not a small one. And it's not just fraud. It's the same pattern with nearly every type of crime. Trump's Justice Department is prosecuting a Democratic congresswoman for this encounter, claiming she assaulted a police officer. But Trump pardoned nearly 170 people who pled guilty to or were convicted of assaulting police officers on January 6th. Trump claims to back American law enforcement, but just last month he pardoned a maga politician who was convicted after she took money that was raised to honor a slain police officer and literally used it to pay for plastic surgery and for her daughter's wedding. You can't make up how gross it is sometimes. Trump also used the threat of international drug trafficking to justify everything from his draconian immigration policies to his disastrous tariffs. But that didn't stop Trump from pardoning a notorious online drug trafficker who the FBI says is responsible for the overdose deaths of at least six people. All because that notorious online drug trafficker had become a cause celeb in parts of the conservative movement. That's why. Look, of all the powers Trump has, the pardon power, in my view, has always had one of the greatest potentials for abuse. Trump is using pardon power in a way that no one else has really done before him. Rewarding his friends, legitimizing conduct he himself wants to engage in, and likely ignoring many of the people who may legitimately need a presidential pardon commutation. It's pretty clear that Trump intends to keep expanding his use of the pardon power. I mean, earlier this month, he chose Ed Martin as his official. You remember this guy? I'm sure we've talked about him a lot. He's a former advocate for January 6th defendants. He was actually in Washington on January 6th, tweeting from the protests. Trump then decided to try and make Ed Martin the U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C. where Ed Martin immediately started threatening Democratic lawmakers with baseless investigations. Eventually, Trump had to take him out of that job after Martin's ties to a notorious right wing Hitler impersonator came to light. But Trump didn't get rid of Ed Martin entirely. He just moved him over to the pardon office where he could continue to help Trump abuse his power. Congratulations, Ed. You're no longer in charge of punching our enemies. Your new job is to reward all of our friends. It used to be that the office of the US Pardon Attorney was considered an apolitical job. Their job is to offer unbiased legal expertise on who the president should and should not pardon before Trump installed his own hand picked crony. And that guy definitely is. The job of US Pardon attorney was held by this woman. Her name is Liz Oyer, and she held the job of pardon attorney from 2022 until earlier this year. That's when she says Donald Trump fired her over her refusal to help Trump connected celebrity Mel Gibson get his right to carry a gun back. And since then, Liz Oyer has been raising the alarm about abuses of power at Trump's doj.

[Guest]

I will not be bullied into concealing the ongoing corruption and abuse of power at the Department of Justice. DOJ is entrusted with keeping us safe, upholding the rule of law, and protecting our civil rights. It is not a personal favor bank for the President.

[Host]

It's not a personal favor bank for the President. It is definitely not supposed to be, but Donald Trump seems to think it is. So how far can Trump go in abusing his pardon power? How concerned should we be with what he has already done? And what can the American people do to push back? I have just the people to ask. Former U.S. pardon attorney Liz Oyer and former Obama ethics czar Norm Eisen are standing by and they join me in just 90 seconds.

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[Host]

After a truly insane day of pardon news, which I just tried my best to talk you all through, I can't think of two better people to talk to more about it. Liz Oyer is the former pardoner attorney at the Department of Justice. And Norm Eisen is the former ethics star in the Obama White House and a co founder of the Contrarian. Thank you both so much for being here. And this is an issue I lived through as a spokesperson, but I think it's so important for people to understand all the ins and outs of it. And I so appreciate you being here. So let me start with you, Liz. You and I have talked about this before, about how the process is not working, how it is supposed to work, and process can be very important. So as you look to the Culpepper case, what stood out to you? I just tried to talk through it. I may have missed things, but you're an expert. What stood out to you about that particular pardon?

[Guest]

There are a lot of things that are very unusual about that pardon, Jen. One is the timing of it. This happened the day before the sheriff was supposed to report to prison to start serving his sentence. It is extremely unusual that someone who has not yet started serving their sentence, let alone completed their sentence, would even be considered for a pardon. Pardons are also usually reserved for people who have expressed acceptance of responsibility and remorse for their offense, which this sheriff has not done. They're usually reserved for people who have exhausted the judicial process so concluded all their appeals, which the sheriff has not done. And finally, pardons are very, very rarely, if ever granted to people who have abused the public trust in the way that this sheriff did. He took his elected office and he essentially sold the benefits of it profit to himself. He was convicted of bribery and honest services fraud. Those are crimes for which, outside of the two Trump administrations, we have very rarely seen pardons granted.

[Host]

I imagine, as the former ethics counsel for the White House and someone who cares deeply about such things, that this storyline of this sheriff kind of sent a bit of a chill up your spine.

[Expert]

Well, here you have somebody who took over $75,000 to give in the light of day. I'll just note to give badges and official status to business people so they could flash the badge, get out of traffic stops, get out of other tight situations. Jim, it's not just the people involved in this incident. We have him on tape. You played the tape. It is a classic example of corruption. So what stood out to me is a White House embracing corruption. What do you expect from a president who himself has been convicted 34 times, who issued a blanket pardon to those who assaulted law enforcement? This is an insult to law enforcement who secured the evidence in this case? It's an insult to the jury that convicted the sheriff. And it's an insult to all Americans. And it comes on top of so much other corruption with the Qatari plane and the $2 billion UAE backed investment in Trump's crypto business and selling access to Trump at the dinner, some other pardons that are also involved with issues of selling access, like that crypto dinner. So there's a pattern here. When people do this stuff, it comes at the expense of the American people. And I don't think they're going to tolerate it.

[Host]

I this is why we're talking about it, so people understand why this is not how it's supposed to work and then some. I just talked about Ed Martin and he is, I suppose, your successor, which is a strange way of describing it, but he clearly is the President's ear. He clearly is considering a range of pardons. We don't know that you and other pardon attorneys probably would not have help us understand how far he could go. I mean, could he rescind pardons that were issued in the past? What could he do?

[Guest]

Well, I think one thing that's important for everyone to understand is how the pardon process usually works. It is not the most clear or transparent process that we have, but there is an ordinary operating procedure and that is to go through the office of the Pardon Attorney, which very carefully vets applicants for pardons and then makes a recommendation to the President. That is an office that has always been staffed and led by non political officials. So people who are not political appointees. The appointment of Ed Martin takes that office in a very different direction because he is a presidential appointee. He is somebody who has a long history of supporting MAGA causes. He just tweeted today, no MAGA left behind, which apparently is a reflection of his intentions pardon power. He intends to to pardon anyone affiliated with MAGA who's been convicted of a crime. This is a completely different approach to the pardon power than we've ever seen before. And it's alarming not only because of the people who will likely be pardoned as a result. It's also very sad and very unfair to the people who've gone through the ordinary process, who have been waiting in many cases for months or years for their pardon applications to be considered. And many of these are ordinary Americans who have been sentenced under now defunct mandatory minimum laws. There are individuals who have served decades in prison and have exhibited exemplary conduct and rehabilitation during that time. They're not people who have political ties or the ability to hire a lobbyist or lawyer. And so Those cases are not being heard or considered. And that's very unfortunate for our system of justice.

[Host]

I think that's such an important part of this. You have time, you spend attention on some things, you can't spend it on others. Ed Martin, in this job, yes, as you said, it's not always fully transparent, but it's a very important role in every administration, not a political role. Is there anything that can be done? I mean, he couldn't be the U.S. attorney because he couldn't get the votes. And now Trump has essentially in some ways elevated him to a more power. I mean, I don't know how you judge it, but a pretty powerful role. Is there anything that can be done or it's just Ed Martin is going to have the freedom to do what he wants to do here and then Trump does what he wants to do.

[Expert]

He has two roles. He's the pardon attorney. As shocking as that is, he's also the captain of the so called weaponization task force. In other words, he's in charge of going after the President's self perceived adversaries. There is something that can be done about that. Just last week in one of our cases at the Democracy Defenders Fund where we we're saying DOJ can't do and expose 6,000 FBI agents who worked on January 6th matters doing their job, defending justice, protecting the country, we filed a motion using Ed Martin's own words to say, hey, here's proof DOJ Mr. Martin wants to engage in this kind of weaponization that he decries. So the courts are there. We have an order in place protecting those 6,000 FBI agents. There's over 150 court orders stopping the Trump administration's illegal behavior. My organization alone has worked on almost 70 cases. So we're going to keep going in the courts. Checking Donald Trump, checking DOJ and Mr.

[Host]

Martin, Liz Oyer, thank you for joining me and all of your expertise and speaking out. I know that's not the easiest thing to do. Norm Eisen, thank you as always for fighting for all of the things. Stay and night. I really appreciate you both being here with me.

[Guest]

Thank you, Jen.

[Host]

All right, we're going to take a very quick break, but coming up, I know from experience that Vladimir Putin's spokesperson Dmitry Peskov chooses his words very, very carefully and often they come directly from the boss. So when he said Donald Trump was dealing with an emotional overlord, let's just say my viewers perked up a bit. Former White House national security adviser Susan Rice is standing by and she joins me after a very quick break.

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[Host]

There's a specific four word slogan that Donald Trump, Trump loves to repeat. And not the one on the red hat, this one here. Promises made, promises kept. The thing is, Trump has made a lot of promises to the American people, but he has not kept all of them. Not by a mile. For example, immediately bring prices down on day one, make the government more efficient. End the war in Gaza, end the war in Ukraine in 24 hours. And it's that last failed promise, in particular on Ukraine, that seems to really bother Trump lately. I mean, a month ago, right after Trump said he struck a peace deal to end the war, Russian President Vladimir Putin launched one of the most devastating bombardments on Ukraine's capital, Kyiv, since the war began. Trump responded by posting online, vladimir, stop. Wouldn't you know, Vladimir did not stop. And over the weekend, Russia launched an even bigger aerial assault on Kyiv. And Trump responded again by going online writing that Putin has, quote, gone absolutely crazy. Now, Trump has been largely defending Russia, criticizing Ukraine, and cutting off necessary US Assistance since he took office, but now that he appears pretty impotent in achieving his promise of ending the war, well, he's melting down publicly a little. Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov, who often chooses his words almost always carefully, brushed off Trump's outburst by calling it, quote, emotional, which probably got under Trump's skin. But more importantly, what's clear is that Trump doesn't have a handle on ending the war. He never did. And all of the siding with his friend Putin has only led to empowering him further. Joining me now is Susan Rice. She's the former US Ambassador to the United nations and the former national security adviser to President Obama. There's so much I want to ask you about. I want to start just by asking you. I mean, you've engaged with the Russians for decades. You know who all these players are very, very well. I mentioned Peskoff's statement, calling Trump's response emotional. He's always thoughtful about what he says. What did you think that overall message is about?

[Susan Rice]

Well, Jen, it's good to be with you. I have to say, when I heard the Peskov statement, I kind of chuckled to myself, as I imagine you might have, because calling a person emotional or their reaction emotional is a favorite crime put down. I've certainly heard them use it many times in the past. They particularly like to use it in a way of putting down women and calling them emotional. So the fact that Peskov referred to Trump's reaction as emotional was really designed to get under his skin, and understandably so.

[Host]

No question. And I also chuckled a little bit, Definitely Ava directed at women. Trump is clearly overestimating his relationship with Putin. That's an evergreen statement, perhaps for a decade or more. I mean, Russia seems empowered in Ukraine. How do you think the Kremlin and Putin read his behavior and sort of what happens from here? Because as much as we can chuckle about Peskov's statement, this is all, of course, incredibly serious. And they seem quite empowered without the backing of the US for the Ukrainians.

[Susan Rice]

It'S deadly serious, Jen. I mean, we've just witnessed over the last several days the most intensive Russian attack on Ukrainian cities and civilians of the entire war. And Putin is doing this precisely because he knows that Trump has not been prepared to do anything to stop him. They had a phone call last week that reportedly lasted two hours. Trump came out of it Giving a very upbeat readout. And the next thing you know, Putin is launching this intensified attack. And this is all coming about, frankly, because Trump in the first instance boasted ridiculously that he could end the war in one day, and then went on to give Putin everything he could have asked for and more. In terms of Ukrainian territory, no security guarantees from the US For Ukraine, no NATO membership, take the Donbass, take Crimea, get Crimea recognized as Russian territory. He handed all of that to Putin. And Putin said, nope, sorry, not enough. And so Putin is calculating he can keep on playing Trump, drawing out this war at great human cost. And the only question is, is there a certain point at which Trump really does have enough and puts meaningful additional sanctions on Russia and provides Ukraine with the equipment and financing that it so desperately needs and deserves?

[Host]

We will see. And that is certainly what a lot of people are advocating for. I know you have been a huge advocate of that, as many have, while I have you. I mean, in order to. If he makes a decision like that, there needs to be a process. And on Friday, they fired. We don't have the exact numbers, but many people from the nsc, they dismantled it enormously. Rubio has four jobs, apparently. A lot of people have said, I would say Republicans who are defending him and others. Trump doesn't care about policy processes. It doesn't matter. And I know it matters. You especially know it matters because the NSC is not only the body that sort of helps make decisions, but also implements. What are the things that concern you the most? Having had the National Security Advisor roll before about the dismantling you're seeing?

[Susan Rice]

I'm deeply concerned by it, Jen, for a variety of reasons. It's one thing to trim carefully the staff, to do it in a deliberate way. That's not what this is. This looks like they took a battle axe to the NSC staff. It's very worrying that we have a National Security advisor, as you said, that's wearing three other hats. And I can attest with confidence that the National Security advisor role by itself is more than a full time job. But what it really concerns me most is that it indicates that Trump could care less about decision making, information flow, intelligence analysis, and considered deliberations about our national security. He is not governing and not using the apparatus of the National Security Council and the national security agencies in a manner that serves the national interest. It's all top down, his personal whim, his personal interest, and he doesn't care what the analysis is, what the recommendations are, the considerations of the risks and benefits of any course of action because all he wants to do is wake up or stay up in the middle of the night and tweet out his dictate. And that's a very, very dangerous way to make policy in the interests of the United States. It will not serve our national interests. It will inevitably lead to bad decisions and to bad outcomes to our national security.

[Host]

Susan Rice, few people have had more high level policy roles than you. I really appreciate you joining me. Thank you so much.

[Susan Rice]

Good.

[Host]

And come. Coming up, we're going to talk about conspiracy theories that MAGA World has promoted for years and how they have started to catch up with them. I'll explain all of it after a very quick break. There's a video of Patriot Front and me and Matt Taibbi.

[Advertiser]

I go, they're feds. I go, it's me yelling, where's the fat people?

[Expert]

They're all, they're all wearing the same uniform.

[Advertiser]

One guy's got a drum.

[Commentator]

Get the out of here.

[Advertiser]

These are feds.

[Host]

These are feds.

[Advertiser]

The day after Cash Patel gets in, they disband.

[Host]

So that was Joe Rogan, of course, back in March pushing the conspiracy theory that the white nationalist group Patriot Front was actually a fake FBI front. Now, you probably know Patriot Front because as Joe Rogan points out, whenever they host one of their hate rallies, they do so in uniform. You can see them on the screen there. Ever since the group slurred off from the white nationalist group that planned the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia back in 2017, Patriot Front has traveled all around the country spewing racist and anti Semitic hate. But rather than just condemn the group, right wing conspiracy theorists and Trump allies have insisted that Patriot Front is actually just the FBI trying to make the white nationalism seem like a bigger threat than it actually is. It's not just Joe Rogan pushing that idea. Elon Musk has pushed the theory, as have multiple members of Congress. The core of the theory goes like this. The reason this group wore your uniforms and masks was to hide the fact that they were secretly FBI agents, obviously, and that once Kash Patel was in charge of the FBI, he would simply fire the agents involved and the group would cease to exist. That's how it goes. Well, Mr. Patel was sworn into office back in February and this was the local news in Kansas City this past weekend.

[Reporter]

Kansas City, Missouri, residents are expressing alarm after a hate group marched in downtown Kansas City yesterday. We got footage of that group while they were at the Liberty Memorial before they began their march downtown. The group was In a uniform, wearing tan hats, white masks covering their faces. Navy. Navy blue shirts, tan pants and boots. Some were carrying shields. The flags they carried included upside down American flags, the Confederate flag, and a flag that identifies the group as the Patriot Front.

[Host]

Hmm. Seems very much like Patriot Front still exists. I wonder how FBI Director Kash Patel will explain that one. See, FBI Director Patel and his number two, Dan Bongino, have a problem. Both of them have spent years promoting conspiracy theories surrounding the FBI, but now they are actually in charge of the FBI. Now they are the dogs that caught the car.

[Commentator]

I don't know how Jeffrey Epstein died. I'm not going to sit here and tell you I wasn't there. All I can tell you is it's awfully suspicious how that happened. Oh, look, the camera's broke. Oh, look, he strangled himself on a bedtime. Wow. Amazing how that worked out.

[Host]

That was Dan Bongino on his show last September. Now take a look at how Patel and Bongino talked about Jeffrey Epstein earlier this month. You said Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. People don't believe it.

[Commentator]

Well, I mean, listen, they have a right to their opinion. But as someone who has worked as a public defender, as a prosecutor, who's been in that prison system, who's been.

[Host]

In the Metropolitan Detention center, who's been.

[Commentator]

In segregated housing, you know a suicide when you see one, and that's what that was. He killed himself. Again, you want me to. I've seen the whole file. He killed himself.

[Host]

What a difference a few months makes. Another conspiracy Bongino pushed was the idea that Secret Service had denied a request from Trump for, quote, unquote, enhanced security just before the assassination attempt on Trump's life. Bongino claimed he had a direct source and alluded to a larger conspiracy. But listen to him now responding to a question about whether there really was any conspiracy surrounding that assassination attempt. Are we going to be surprised at what you learned?

[Commentator]

You know what, Maria? Cash is not kidding. We've been personally briefed extensively on every single detail, nugget tendril of this case. In some of these cases, the there you're looking for is not there. And I know people. I get it. I understand it's not there.

[Host]

The there you were looking for is not there. Now, this would all just be funny if it were not for the fact that these two guys now actually have to run the FBI. And while they're owning up to the fact that some of their conspiracies had no there there, which is good, they also clearly know they have upset their audience. And their audience has told them that, too. So yesterday, Dan Bongino announced the reopening of three cases which have been regular targets of conspiracy theorists. The leak of the Dobbs draft decision overturning Roe v. Wade, the pipe bombs found in D.C. on January 6, and the cocaine found in the White House in July of 2023. Will there be any there? There probably not. But it might just keep their conspiracy theory loving base happy enough, at least for now. Coming up, as lots of news organizations bend the knee, NPR decides to fight back. Today, NPR sued Donald Trump. And the attorney representing NPR in that case joins me next. A hallmark of Donald Trump's second term has been a constant push to bully, punish, and even control news organizations. Sometimes that's been through less obvious means, like banning reporters from certain areas of the Pentagon or exerting greater control over the White House press pool and pushing Voice of America to carry programming from the Trump adoring cable channel oan. But other times, the Trump administration's assault on the free press has been more direct, like this month's executive order to end public funding for media organizations NPR and pbs. Well, today npr, alongside three other public radio stations, decided to fight back. They decided to sue the Trump administration to stop that order. In the lawsuit, the plaintiffs wrote, it is not always obvious when the government has acted with a retaliatory purpose in violation of the First Amendment. But this wolf comes as a wolf. Joining me now is Ted Boutros, partner at Gibson and Dunn and a longtime attorney who has represented media outlets in First Amendment cases. He's one of the lawyers representing npr. Ted, thank you so much for taking the time I wanted to start. I mean, only a small portion, about 1% of NPR's funding comes directly from the federal government. Sometimes people are confused about that. I wanted to repeat it. So money doesn't entirely seem to be what is at stake in this case, or you tell me otherwise. But what is at stake here?

[Ted Boutros]

What's at stake, Jenny, is the First Amendment, the independence of the press, the Public Broadcasting act, which formed the Public Media Network, both NPR Radio Network and and the local stations. And one of the cardinal principles of the First Amendment is that the government cannot dictate what private journalists and other media entities say, what the editorial choices are. That's what's at stake here. This executive order blatantly interferes with the independence of NPR and with the local stations that 246 local stations around the country.

[Host]

So many people watching, I'm sure, listen to npr. I'm an NPR listener as well. What is the next the lawsuit was just filed today. What is the next step here in the process us the next step is.

[Ted Boutros]

We will go in for a preliminary injunction to enjoin the executive order. And one thing that's very important to keep in mind, it not only precludes direct funding by the Corporation of Public Broadcasting, which as you note, is a small portion of the funding, but it would preclude the local stations from subscribing to and buying NPR con content. And so it's taking away their autonomy. And it's just an on its face viewpoint discrimination, retaliation for speech. And it would be one thing if the government was just saying we don't have enough money. But that's not what the executive order says. It's saying the president and the administration does not like NPR's coverage, its content, and that's about as bad as it gets. That's a wolf. As Justice Scalia said in the quote you read at the beginning, it's an obvious clear First Amendment violation. We we are going to go into court and seek it being enjoined.

[Host]

I should note that was a Scalia quote from a past his past writing, but it was it was artfully written in this in this case today. We've worked on these cases defending First Amendment rights for a long time. NPR and PBS are certainly probably not going to be the last targets in terms of that right and the freedom of press. How do you how should media organizations prepare for this moment?

[Ted Boutros]

It is a very important moment. The press is one of the few groups in our society that are baked into the Constitution really as part of democracy. And another case I like to cite is Citizens United, which is controversial sometimes, but it really says what First Amendment is all about. And it's getting information to the citizenry so we can all make decisions about how to govern our govern ourselves. And right now, there's a multifaceted attack on the press, both rhetorically and through these legal means that are meant to cut off the independence of journalists in the their ability to get the public the information they need to figure out how to govern the country. And that's what this is all about. It's not a partisan issue. There's been bipartisan support for decades for npr, for the public, public broadcasting system. This is about the public, the millions of people who get their news and information about the national scene and international scene from NPR and its local stations activities. It's really a bigger picture issue that concerns all of us. We just want there to be free speech, freedom of the press, freedom of association in this country. We're better for it. And that's what the framers of the Constitution intended.

[Host]

Ted Boutros, thank you so much. I know so many people listen to npr. They watch pbs. They really rely on the reporting for information. Thank you so much for being with me this evening. Explain it to all of us. And coming up, a story about the very best of America. I'm going to tell it to you when we come right back. Before we go tonight, I wanted to raise a very brief point of personal privilege here to talk about someone I knew personally. I was the press secretary to Congressman Joe Crowley 20 years ago. I can't believe it when I say that. Back when his son Cullen was a sweet and adorable little boy. And this weekend, my former boss shared some beautiful words about his son. Cullen first set his sights on the US Naval Academy at the age of 12 after attending a football game there. And from that moment on, nothing could deter him. He fulfilled his dream in 2018 by becoming a midshipsman, a chapter he often described as the most challenging yet deeply rewarding part of his life. He never quit or complained, facing every obstacle with his trademark determination. In 2022, he graduated as a second lieutenant in the U.S. marine Corps and without hesitation continued his service and officer training at Quantico. When faced with a rare and aggressive form of cancer, Cullen had only one option, to fight. And for two and a half years, he did just that with the kind of courage and resilience one would expect from a Marine. He never let the odds define him. Instead, he met each day with the same joy and gratitude for life he had always carried. Cullen lost his battle with cancer this weekend. He is derived by his family, including his father, former Congressman Joe Crowley. So as we honor the men and women who served our country. I'm sorry this is a tough one. I wanted to spend a moment remembering someone who fought his own battle to do exactly that. That does it for me.

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[Host]

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[Host]

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