← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
'SHE IS A MONSTER': Survivors warn Trump is dealing with Epstein's 'puppet master'
00:40:12
Jen Psaki pokes holes in JD Vance's denial of a reported meeting of White House officials to discuss messaging strategy on Donald Trump's Jeffrey Epstein scandal. Meanwhile, as questions continue to be raised about why Epstein's accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell was given preferential treatment in a prison transfer, survivors of Epstein and Maxwell are speaking out about Maxwell's depravity and her role in their abuse.
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- [00:00]
Nicole Wallace
USAA knows dynamic duos can save the.
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Spencer Kuvan
Day like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With usaa, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%.
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Jacob Soborov
Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply. MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with MSNBC reporter Jacob Soborov.
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Nicole Wallace
It's about the connection that you and I have and our colleagues have. But it's also about the connection and the trust that people place in us at a time when trust in media, I think is at all time lows.
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Jacob Soborov
The Best People with Nicole Wallace listen now. For early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on.
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Spencer Kuvan
Apple Podcasts We've always known that Donald Trump would use the presidency to do everything possible to bend the US justice system in a way that no president before him has ever done. He pretty much told us that on the campaign. Every action he took while he was running, every he's taken since he came up, that escalator has told us that. And since he entered office, Trump has turned the Department of Justice upside down completely, effectively rewriting history by punishing the prosecutors and politicians who held him to account, or those who want to hold him to account, while rewarding the lawbreakers and corrupt politicians that sang his praises. I mean, we saw it with January 6 very clearly when Trump pardoned or commuted the sentences of every single person who stormed the US Capitol. So one of the first things he did and at the same time in the first couple of months of his presidency, fired the prosecutors who had brought them to justice. We've seen it with Trump's targeting of political rivals like former President Barack Obama, Senator Adam Schiff, and dozens and dozens of other critics. At the same time, he ends investigations into the politicians and corrupt officials who do his bidding. And yes, I'm looking at you, Eric Adams, to name just one. We've seen it with Trump's firing of career DOJ officials as he rewards his own personal defense lawyers with high ranking positions. I mean, is there any other way that Alina Habba would have ended with a job as a U.S. attorney? I don't think so. Point is that time and time again, Trump uses the justice system to dole out favors to his friends and allies while targeting those who stand up to him. And if there is one message Trump is sending, it is applaud me, thank me, give credit to me, do things for me, and if you do, you will be rewarded. And if you challenge me or the way I want to govern, no matter what laws I break or who I hurt in the process, you are going to suffer the consequences. It's all about self preservation and about removing any barrier there is or person to protect himself. And now, as Trump tries to shield himself from the fallout over Jeffrey Epstein, we're seeing that happen once again. I mean, today. NBC News reported that Tonight Vice President J.D. vance is hosting a meeting or supposed to host a meeting with top law enforcement officials to discuss how to deal with the Epstein fallout. Now, that meeting, which again was reportedly scheduled for this meeting for this evening, was set to include Attorney General Pam Bondi, who of course just launched a bogus investigation of Barack Obama to keep Trump happy. It was set to include FBI Director Kash Patel, who was picked for his job after compiling a list of Trump's enemies to prosecute. That's pretty much how he got the job. And it was said to include Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, Trump's former personal attorney, who met with Epstein co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell just 14 days ago. I can't emphasize enough how wildly inappropriate this is and outrageous it should feel. I mean, just imagine for a moment that Vice President Harris hosted a version of a dinner party, which is what kind of thing happens at the Vice President's home with Attorney General Garland, FBI Director Christopher Wray, and other members of law enforcement to strategize about how to get Joe Biden out of a legal and ethical mess of his own creation. Just how much that would make the brains of the manosphere absolutely explode. And frankly, I wouldn't blame them. I mean, the Department of Justice and the FBI are not supposed to be part of political discussions like this. It's gross that they're even potentially having a political discussion about this. Completely gross. And this meeting at the home of the current Vice President JD Vance is even worse. I mean, according to a report last night, the focus of the meeting was to craft a unified response to the Epstein case. Of course, it comes as the administration reportedly weighs whether or not to release the transcript of Deputy Attorney General Blanche's interview with Epstein, Koch and spoke Ghislaine Maxwell. And according to that report, there have also been internal discussions about Blanche doing a high profile interview, possibly with popular podcaster Joe Rogan. Are they gonna have a whiteboard with like a pro con list of that with the Attorney General and the FBI director? Is that what we're talking about here? I guess they have a lot to discuss. But after word of that meeting went public, A spokesperson for Vice President Bance issued this denial saying, quote, there was never a supposed meeting scheduled at the Vice President's residence to discuss Epstein's strategy. Okay, I have to tell you, I've written a lot of these, and that is a very carefully worded statement. Is the meeting just not at the Vice President's residence anymore? Is it to discuss a media rollout for Todd Blanche? So you just aren't calling it a strategy meeting? Is it just happening another day? We really don't know. And then in the Oval Office just a few hours later, JD Vanch lashed out in response to a question about that reported meeting. Mr. President, is Vice President Vance hosting a gathering this evening to talk about how to respond to the Epstein situation? Is he working on what? Is he posting some kind of gathering of top advisors this evening to talk about how to respond to the Epstein situation? I don't know. I could ask you that question.
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Jacob Soborov
I don't know of it, but I.
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Spencer Kuvan
Think here's the man right here. I saw it reported today, and it's completely fake news. We're not meeting to talk about the Epstein situation. Okay. We're not meeting to just talk about the Epstein situation. So are you meeting. Are you meeting somewhere else? Who knows? We don't know. The point is, they really want us to think that. Nobody is talking about Epstein right now, but some people who have been impacted by the horrors of Epstein and Maxwell, the most important people in this whole story, are talking, and they have some legitimate questions about this particular meeting. Today, the family of Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre, who died by suicide, released this statement. We understand that Vice President J.D. vance will hold a strategy session this evening at his residence with administration officials. Missing from this group is, of course, any survivor of the vicious crimes of convicted perjurer and sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. Their voices must be heard. Above all, any information that may be released by the government should take into account the survivors who wish to remain anonymous for their safety and. And well being. They should be consulted first. Of course they should. Now, I should note for the record that Ghislaine Maxwell was charged with two counts of perjury, though she was never tried on those charges. But it is no surprise that the administration is not taking Epstein's survivors into account here. They never have. I mean, the Department of Justice has made little effort to include them, to consult with them, even to inform them of their actions. For the administration, this has never been about protecting Epstein's Survivors. It's always been about protecting Trump, and so far it has followed a familiar pattern. One where the justice system ends up rewarding those who help Donald Trump, no matter how reprehensible they may be. I mean, for instance, we know that Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche met for nine hours with Ghislaine Maxwell. And right around that same time, Maxwell was moved from a high security prison in Florida to a cushier minimum security prison camp in Texas, commonly known as as Club Fed, which tells you kind of everything you need to know. It's a facility where reality TV stars usually serve time for financial crimes and one that typically requires special permission from the Bureau of Prisons to be able to house a convicted child sex predator like Maxwell. As one former federal prison warden told the Washington Post, someone gave special preference to Maxwell that to my knowledge, no other inmate currently in the Federal Bureau of Prisons has received. It's a country club. Inmates, if they have a sex offense, are not going to a place like that, period. It's truly unheard of. So why is Ghislaine Maxwell suddenly getting the country club treatment? Who in the government approved her transfer? Does it have anything to do with the fact that she had nothing bad to say about Donald Trump? Reportedly, when asked about the transfer, Trump said the same thing he always does whenever a scandal like this is engulfing his administration. Were you aware of and did you personally approve the prison transfer for Ghislaine Maxwell? That your Justice Department.
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Jeh Johnson
I didn't know about it at all. No, I read about it just like you did.
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Spencer Kuvan
I mean, really, you sent your personal, your former personal lawyer, who you rewarded with a role as the Deputy Attorney General, to have a meeting where reportedly only three people were there and you know nothing about it, really? Somebody in Trump's government had to approve this transfer. In just a moment, I'll talk to a lawyer for some of Epstein's survivors who says it's possible this transfer was part of an agreement between the Trump administration, administration and Maxwell in advance of her meeting with Blanche. But before we get there, I want to remind everyone what exactly we are watching happen here. The fixation with what Maxwell has said in her interview. Trump officials strategizing grossly. How to spin it, the department, the deputy Attorney General planning to go maybe on Joe Rogan and talk about it. It's all just reputational laundering for a convicted sexual predator with a history of alleged perjury. In other words, this is not a person anyone should trust. Remember that Ghislaine Maxwell has been convicted of conspiring to abuse minors as young as 14 years old. She's never admitted wrongdoing, expressed contrition, or taken any responsibility whatsoever for her actions. And many of her and Jeffrey Epstein survivors have been imploring the public not to trust her. People like Haley Robson, who says she was sexually assaulted by Epstein when she was a student in high school. To be clear, Ghislaine Maxwell is in prison for her counts of child exploitation and trafficking. Why would anybody give somebody like her, who is a monster and a liar, a time of day to explain anything? Good question. Then there are other Epstein survivors like Maria Farmer, who said this about Maxwell here on this program just two weeks ago. I've never met a more predatory, terrifying human being in my entire life. And neither had Virginia Giuffre, and neither has Annie or Anoushka or many girls like Shantae Davies. There's hundreds of us that were preyed upon by Ghislaine Maxwell. She's a very dangerous person and she threatened my life on many occasions. I've had to move and be in hiding because of this predatory child predators predator and just victim predator. So it's completely unacceptable for anyone to call her a victim. The woman is not a victim. She's a victimizer. And then there's Virginia Giuffre, one of Epstein's most vocal accusers, who said she was groomed and abused by both Epstein and Maxwell for years. Virginia Giuffre died by suicide earlier this year. But here's what she had to say about Maxwell just five years ago. She is a monster. She's worse than Epstein. She did things even worse than Epstein did. Epstein was Pinocchio and she was Gesto. She was the guy controlling the strings. Yep, she was pulling the strings. She had his money, he had her contacts. But Ghislaine was much more conniving and smart than Epstein ever was. The Trump era is full of horrible people who did horrible things, showed no remorse, and found themselves being rewarded for it anyway because they found a way to do something for Trump. And there are already many hints that we are seeing a similar pattern play out between Trump and Ghislaine Maxwell. Feels to me like the administration is trying to cast Maxwell as some kind of credible witness, which is insane. Someone who was safe enough to be moved to a lower security prison, someone who answered questions for nine hours like that should give her some sort of credibility. It should not. The Trump administration is trying to keep the focus on hearing away from the questions. They still haven't answered the documents. They still haven't released the promises they have not kept. But the survivors of Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein's abuse and their families are not about to let that happen. A lawyer for several survivors of Jeffrey Epstein joins me here in just 90 seconds.
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Jacob Soborov
Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Bruszinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, Jen Psaki, Lawrence o', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhle and more. Visit MSNBC to buy your tickets today. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free link listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
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Spencer Kuvan
Joining us now is Spencer Kuven. He's an attorney for nine victims of Jeffrey Epstein. Spencer, thank you for being here with me. I know you have talked about in the past and this is so true and important for people to hear about how many people have let these survivors and victims down over the years. And that's important to understand and restate. I wanted to start just by asking you about this meeting that the Vice President is reportedly hosting. It's a so called strategy meeting with the attorney General, the FBI director, deputy FBI director. The partThere's a lot about it that feels gross to me, but the part of describing it as a strategy meeting feels particularly jarring. But what do you make of this?
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Nicole Wallace
It's a damage control meeting. That's all it is. They're trying to figure out the best way to minimize the damage that's going to come out when the eventual documents are released. At some point or at some point they actually try to have Ghislaine Maxwell testify before Congress or in some open proceeding. So they're trying to strategize a way to spin what she's going to say and the best way to minimize the damage to the current administration.
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Spencer Kuvan
It all feels, to your point, like a damage control spinning control process here, all of these different pieces and there have been a range of reports about this potential for them to release some parts or a full transcript. We don't really know of the conversation between Todd Blanche and Ghislaine Maxwell. I Think you just heard part of what I said. But what should people understand about that? Because they're trying to frame it as some sort of form of transparency, which is absolutely baloney, but you know much better than I do about all of this.
- [15:46]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, it's unbelievable. I mean, so here's what happens when they go in to take a statement of an individual. They sit down with the individual and they say, okay, tell me what you're gonna say. Explain it to me. And then they craft that testimony, and they say, okay, look, if you want a deal, if you want to go to a nicer facility, I'm telling you right now, don't mention anything about Trump. Don't mention anything about people in the current administration. You can talk about anything else you want, and then go ahead and we'll see how it goes, and we'll transfer you to a nicer facility. And then they press record. The plan is already in place before they hit the record button. That's why it's such a sham. It's a show. It's an attempt to try to whitewash what's going on. What they should do is release. Release all of the evidence, release the videotapes, release the investigative memos by the FBI, by the doj. That's the information that needs to be released, because that's not gonna lie. Video is evidence. Let's see it.
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Spencer Kuvan
I have a feeling they do not want to release that at all, as you know. Let me ask you something about the transfer, because I just read a quote from somebody who was a former official from the Bureau of Prisons about how uncommon this is. Uncommon is an understatement. I know. When you spoke to one of my colleagues last week, you said you had not been contacted by anyone from there about the transfer. Is anything about that change? I don't expect it was, but I wanted to ask you a.
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Nicole Wallace
No, no, no. Absolutely not. And this is the repeated failures by multiple, frankly, administrations throughout this case. You know, this dates back to the original proceeding where I was representing four of the individuals at the beginning and the inception of this case, including victim number one. The first young lady, 14 years old, that came forward, was brave enough to come forward to police and start this investigation. The federal government never consulted with the victims about the sweetheart deal that Alex Acosta negotiated and then signed off on. I only got the call from an inside informant at the FBI that I needed to rush to the courthouse and find out what was going on. This is the same old playbook. They're not consulting the victims about whatever they're doing right now. They're not consulting the representatives of the victims like myself and the other lawyers, lawyers that represented some of these victims. And they're just going through the motions to try to protect the administration. That's it.
- [18:14]
Spencer Kuvan
You mentioned Alex Acosta. I talked about this a little bit last night. There have been subpoenas issued. James Comer signed a number of subpoenas yesterday, including a range of officials. He did not include Alex Acosta on that list. There's a lot that I'm sure you and others would like to know. Help us understand why that is a significant omission.
- [18:35]
Nicole Wallace
You have to think about it in terms of who had the most information about this investigation. So the investigation started in the town of Palm Beach. Joe Ricare, the lead investigator, police officer, wonderful man, may rest in peace, started this investigation. It then got transferred over to the FBI. And then once the FBI had almost a 40 count indictment in place, it was turned over to Alex Acosta to review all of the evidence that the FBI had put together. He has seen everything. And he then made the call to make the deal. Why is it that they are not subpoenaing the one man who has literally seen all of the evidence that exists on behalf of the federal government? It makes no sense whatsoever. It's the one subpoena they should have issued and skipped over all of the silly subpoenas like to the Clintons and others who know nothing about this case.
- [19:30]
Spencer Kuvan
Well, I think we both know it's a distraction. They don't want to hear all of this publicly, even though everybody wants to hear everything publicly. Before I let you go, let me just ask. I mean, there have been some progress, I suppose. I don't know if you'd call it that. Comer did sign the subpoena of the Epstein files. Do you have any hope that that could result in you and the victims that you represent learning more?
- [19:53]
Nicole Wallace
I would hope. You know, we would always hope, but unfortunately, that is the only thing the victims have ever had in this case is hope. They've been disappointed repeatedly over the last now 20, almost 20 years that these cases have been ongoing. These girls were 14 years old. They're now in their 30s, so it's unfortunate, but I don't expect much from the administration, this one or any in the past, unfortunately.
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Spencer Kuvan
Spencer Kuvan, I know that you have been a source of strength in defending and standing up for so many of these women for so many years. I really appreciate you being here and really for everything you've done. Thank you again. So much.
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Barbara Gervin Hawkins
Thank you.
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Spencer Kuvan
Okay. Still to come tonight, how Homeland Security Secretary and coast Lake queen Kristi Noem is spending billions of taxpayer dollars. We'll get reaction from one of her predecessors in just a few minutes.
- [20:49]
Jacob Soborov
Olivia loves a challenge. It's why she lifts heavy weights and likes complicated recipes. But for booking her trip to Paris, Olivia chose the easy way with Expedia. She bundled her flight with a hotel to save more. Of course, she still climbed all 674 steps to the top of the Eiffel Tower. You were made to take the easy route. We were made to easily package your trip. Expedia made to travel flight inclusive packages are ATOLL PROTECTED. Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC LIVE25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Bruszinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Hayes, Jen Psaki, Lawrence o', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhle, and more. Visit MSNBC to buy your tickets today.
- [21:54]
Spencer Kuvan
Up until today, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ice, was only allowed to hire agents under the age of 40. Today, Trump's homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem, scrapped that rule. We've removed any of the age barriers. We no longer have a cap on how old you can be. ICE agents can now be as old as the day is long, it turns out. Come on down, grandpa. They'll still take you. Doesn't matter how old you are. At the Same time yesterday, 404 Media reported that ice is also ramping up its effort to recruit young people. The agency is reportedly looking for a digital advertising company to, quote, unquote, dominate digital media channels, targeting Gen Z via ads on social media and on streaming services like Hulu and HBO Max. They want old people. They want young people. They want anyone they can get. It seems they've already seen ICE flood social media with recruitment ads like this one, quote, america needs you. Join ICE now. Or this one quote, want to deport illegals with your absolute boys? Go to joinice.gov I'm clearly not the target audience for that in any way, shape or form. Or this post which says, quote, defend your culture. No undergraduate degree required. Frazier culture is doing a lot of offensive work there in that old advertisement. ICE has even sent targeted emails to hundreds of local police officers and sheriff's deputies across the country trying to poach them, angering local law enforcement leaders. As one Florida police chief put it to NBC News, quote, everybody's so pissed. The reality is that local law enforcement salaries can't compete thanks to more than $29 billion in funding for hiring and training for Trump's big ugly bill. ICE is now offering up to 50,000 DOL and assigning bonus to new recruits and up to $60,000 of student debt repayment. You could be 18, you could be 75. You don't need a college degree. They'll take you. You can hang out with your absolute boys and defend your culture. And they'll give you a big fat bonus and pay off your student loans if you've got them. That is how ICE is hiring right now. The goal is to hire 10,000 more agents to supersize Trump's immigration crackdown. And while Trump is supersizing the part of our immigration system that arrests people, he is simultaneously shrinking the part of the system that gives those same people due process. While he is hiring ICE agents by the thousands, he is firing immigration judges by the dozens. For Judge Dice, the acts came last Thursday in the form of a three sentence email. The Attorney General has decided to remove you from your position, the email stated. Your removal is effective today. Since Trump took office in January, his administration has fired dozens of immigration judges without cause or reason. With emails like that one, the immigration courts now only have about 600 immigration judges total nationwide to handle a backlog of about three and a half million cases. That means that while the Trump administration is trying to arrest, imprison and deport an unprecedented number of immigrants, there will be fewer and fewer immigration judges around to hear those immigrants cases to decide whether or not their arrests were lawful. Now, normally immigration judges can't comment on administration actions because of their jobs, but now that Trump has fired them, some immigration judges are starting to speak out. And I want you to hear how they're thinking about all of this.
- [25:21]
Jacob Soborov
What's at stake here.
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Spencer Kuvan
It's really the future of our country. If the funding is going to enforcement and there is no justice left, that shows that our country is no longer embracing the need for due process and for justice. If you're attacking the very judges that adjudicate cases, there's not going to be a rule of law that should concern everybody, not just immigrants, but U.S. citizens. Today is them. It's immigrants. What about tomorrow? Who's going to get due process denied next? Who's going to get due process denied next? It's quite a statement from a judge, former judge, former Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, Jay Johnson joins me to discuss next.
- [26:09]
Jacob Soborov
They don't have a right to see a judge.
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Spencer Kuvan
They came here illegally.
- [26:13]
Jacob Soborov
They came here illegally.
- [26:15]
Spencer Kuvan
They came here so when, when, when.
- [26:17]
Jacob Soborov
The Japanese were bombing Pearl harbor, did we give them due process to actually see a judge?
- [26:22]
Spencer Kuvan
No, we, we put them in concentration camps. Invaded our country, we put them in concentration camps. That was the Lieutenant Governor of Indiana earlier this week. And as you can see, the Trump administration's talking points about how invading immigrants do not deserve due process has quickly saturated the MAGA world. That's not where the majority of the public is, but certainly where the majority of some of the MAGA world is. That's deeply alarming considering the tens of billions of dollars being now poured into immigration enforcement courtesy of the big ugly bill, while at the same time, desperately needed officials like immigration judges are being culled. Joining me now is Jeh Johnson. He served in multiple prominent roles during the Obama administration, including as the Secretary of Homeland Security, which of course oversees border security and enforcement of immigration laws. It is great to see you and there's so much to ask you about. I just want to start by asking you about the influ influx of funding into ICE and immigration enforcement. And this is certainly part of enforcement, is part of what our country does under any president. But what we've seen as of late in the last several months, I mean, the arresting on the street of students, of parents, of people who are seeking asylum, of people, some who are here legally, spouses of veterans. There are so many stories here. It seems to be in the pursuit of meeting this 3,000 a day quota. How concerned are you about that? And of course, the massive influx of funding. It's almost like they don't know what to do with the money.
- [27:57]
Jeh Johnson
Exactly. First, I have to take exception with that clip you showed from the Lieutenant Governor. A migrant in the United States is not the equivalent of a wartime enemy. Let's be clear about that. Anytime there's a large plus up of massive funding in a big hurry, you always have to worry as a taxpayer whether that money is going to be spent wisely. There are going to be a lot of private contractors with their hands out, not necessarily yielding to the best deal for the American taxpayer. And I'm not sure it makes sense to. For example, if you were in the midst of a war against drugs, you might hire a lot of DEA agents, you might hire a lot of cops, but you don't then also fire a lot of judges in order to hear the cases and sentence people to incarceration. So right now, the immigration backlog is years. It's millions of cases. Backlog, years. Very often a migrant shows up to hear an asylum claim to Present an asylum claim, the judge hears it for two hours and then says, come back in 2027. So the answer is not lay off judges. If President Trump wants to see more deportations, wants to see the process move a lot faster, you don't create a huge backlog. I have to also add that this surge, hiring new ICE agents, anytime you draw a big net like that and try to bring on just anybody who wants to defend their culture, so to speak, you have to worry about exactly the character of the person you're bringing on. Big city police departments have made this mistake from time to time. Instead of hiring a dedicated, disciplined law enforcement officer, they're hiring the neighborhood badass. And that leads to a lot of real problems in the enforcement of the law.
- [30:00]
Spencer Kuvan
I think that's exactly the concern with the incentivizing of $60,000 and student loan relief, of what kind of people they might be pulling in and attracting to this. And to be clear, I have many issues with the Lieutenant governor, too. I'm glad you called that out. That's an important thing to call out. Let me also ask you about, because one of the other pieces that we've seen about the immigration policies of this administration is this opening of detention centers. There is, of course, Alligator Alcatraz, which is a horrible name, opened up in the Florida Everglades. They're now touting the possibility of opening up another one in Indiana. There have been many reports about the inhumane conditions at the Florida facility and other facilities. You are not only used to oversee this department, you're also a very prominent lawyer. What questions do you have about what's happening in these facilities and what should people be demanding answers on?
- [30:57]
Jeh Johnson
I'd be interested to know the demographics of the people who are in these facilities. Are we talking about single adult males? Are we talking about families? Are we talking about small children? What is the average stay in these facilities? What can one expect if you go there? What are the conditions like? A lot of these are stood up by private contractors. What kinds of guarantees do they make about cleanliness, about basic food and water? Anytime you surge like this, you have to be concerned about the conditions not being basically humane. And so, and no matter what happens, a number of people are still going to have to be released, because in a surge, you just don't have the type of detention capability that you would expect if you have thousands of people crossing in a day. The numbers are low right now, very obviously. So one questions the need for this large detention space. It seems to me what they're trying to do is send a deterrent to make it sound as ugly as possible. But in fact, the numbers are the lowest they've been in years right now crossing the southern border.
- [32:18]
Spencer Kuvan
I know you aren't able to talk specifics about the law firm you used to work at, but I read this interesting piece in ProPublica today and I've heard this from others in the legal profession and industry at law firms that it's increasingly harder for organizations or individuals who represent and are standing up for issues that the Trump administration may challenge to find legal representation, that there just aren't enough lawyers out there. Is that a big problem as you see it, or something that is going to continue to be a growing problem?
- [32:53]
Jeh Johnson
I would say it's Jen. A problem in it's a growing problem in big Law. On the other hand, there's an entire generation of immigration lawyers who were inspired after Trump won and during Trump won to want to practice immigration law, to want to help helpless migran that didn't exist before 2017. And I suspect that that population of members of the bar is going to be growing whether it's in big law or not.
- [33:27]
Spencer Kuvan
Jeh Johnson, thank you so much for being here. We're all trying to make not make sense of, but gain better understanding of what's happening and what we should know about it. So I appreciate you. Thank you so much.
- [33:37]
Nicole Wallace
Thank you.
- [33:38]
Spencer Kuvan
Coming up, we have more to talk about. The showdown over Republican Jerry Mandarin in Texas took on new meaning Today on the 60th anniversary of the Voting Rights Act. More on that after a very quick break, y'. All. 60 years ago today, the Voting Rights act was signed into law by a.
- [34:04]
Janae Nelson
Great Texan president, Lyndon Baines Johnson. But that that promise is once again under attack. Instead of honoring the VRA's legacy, Texas Republicans are erasing it.
- [34:20]
Spencer Kuvan
One district, one voter, one community at a time. Today, on the 60th anniversary of the Voting Rights Act, Democratic state lawmakers rallied in Boston, including several who fled Texas, in protest over a Trump approved effort by the governor to jam through a completely gerrymandered set of new congressional maps in the hopes, of course, of taking more seats back for the Republicans. And as you just heard, the Democratic lawmakers marked the occasion by drawing parallels between our current moment and similar struggles that played out during the civil rights period. The V area, of course, was one of the biggest, hardest fought victories of that era. The law passed to guarantee black people in this country the right to vote. After decades of discrimination and disenfranchisement and over the years the law was amended and strengthened. But now, six decades after its passage, it is again under attack on multiple fronts, especially in Texas, where black and Latino voters could very well have their voices silenced if Republicans succeed with their gerrymandering efforts. Joining me now is a Democratic lawmaker from Texas who left the state to try and prevent that from happening, Representative Barbara Gervin Hawkins, along with the president of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, Janae Nelson. Thank you both. Thank you both for being here. Let me start with you, Representative Hawkins. One, you've had a heck of a couple of weeks, so I appreciate you being here with me this evening. It feels, I don't want to say unbelievable, because nothing about this moment should be shocking, but it has been 60 years, as we've just said, since the signing of the Voting Rights Act. It's now under attack. Today, it has even greater meaning for the people of Texas given what the governor is trying to do, what you and so many of your colleagues are trying to prevent. Tell us about how personal this fight is for you right now.
- [36:07]
Barbara Gervin Hawkins
It's personal to me because our forefathers and mothers fought and died for us to have an opportunity to vote. So think about in today's time when my colleagues, I'm on the redistricting committee, come forward with a map that we know that there's a bunch of trickery going on because we didn't have proper public hearings and they're taking a cavalier. And for me, this is not a cavalier moment. This is a moment where we've got to stand up to the powers to be. And what's so troubling to me is we don't have to do this. We did maps in 2021, and now here we are again in 2025 trying to fix the system and rig this upcoming election. That's a problem for me.
- [36:54]
Spencer Kuvan
It should be a problem for everybody in this country right now, because this is just the start. This is all happening. The backdrop of this, I should say, Janay, is that last week the United States Supreme Court said it would soon decide whether to gut Section two of the Voting Rights act, which ensures fair representation. Can you explain what that would mean not only for Louisiana, which is the state that the case is based around, but for Texas and the country writ large?
- [37:23]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah.
- [37:24]
Janae Nelson
Well, the Supreme Court issued an order asking whether an intentional district to give historically marginalized voters an opportunity to elect candidates of their choice somehow may violate The Constitution, the 14th and 15th Amendments, the Reconstruction Amendments, the amendments that were meant to make America a true democracy and bring black people, formerly enslaved Africans, into the body politic. And so the question itself is a very peculiar one, because we know that Congress has enforcement authority under the 14th and 15th Amendments to enact laws to ensure that we all have a right to vote and that we are protected equally under the law. And we also know that states like Texas that have a rampant history of discrimination need to have a statute in place to ensure that they don't continue this type of rogue racial gerrymandering and other efforts to suppress the black vote. There's a reason that Texas has been sued under the Voting Rights act every decade since its passage, because state officials continually try to game the system and deny black voters their power.
- [38:36]
Spencer Kuvan
That's such a reminder of what this is really all about and what they're trying to do here. It's about regaining seats, but that's exactly what this is about. Representative Hawkins, there were reports today that the Democrats who left Texas for Illinois were faced with a bomb threat at their hotel, which feels to me like a clear effort to scare people, obviously. How is everyone holding up in light of that and what kind of is? What is next here in your fight?
- [39:02]
Barbara Gervin Hawkins
I'll tell you, we're holding up quite well. It has energized us even more. Think about it, a bomb threat. It happened. We're safe and we're secure. The governor stepped up, provided additional security for us. So they're looking out for us. But guess what? This fight is real for us. Not just for Texas, for America. And we're trying to save America. So we're energized to the fact that we all stood up, listen to our Congressman L. Green, and said, guess what? We will not be deterred. We will not turn back, because we ain't going back. And so our fight is even stronger, and we're ready, and we're staying here till the end. They cannot run us off.
- [39:44]
Spencer Kuvan
I hope everybody has a spine as stiff as yours out there, including in my city that I live in. There have been reports and, Jenny, let me ask you about this, or both of you, but let me start with you, Janay. I mean, Senator Cornyn Trump. Others have mused, potentially the FBI getting involved in locating and arresting Democratic legislators from Texas. I know in the state they're not allowed to go. They don't have jurisdiction outside of Texas, but is that. It does not sound legal to me, but I am not a lawyer, so what should we know about that music?
- [40:19]
Janae Nelson
Let me tell you, there's nothing about this circumstance that's legal. There is A weaponization of the federal government against lawmakers who have every right to break a quorum, especially in the face of an attempt to gerrymander the maps and to try to force the suppression of black voters in particular. But frankly, all Texas voters and all American voters will suffer from a rigged map that comes out of Texas and then produces a delegation in Congress that is illegitimate. So we really should take off our hats and salute the true patriots here, like Representative Hawkins and others who are taking themselves out of their comfort of their own homes and doing what is necessary to ensure that the maps that do get passed are done lawfully, that if there is an effort to want to create more seats, then it has to be done according to the rules. What we're seeing right now is an effort to cheat, an effort to steal elections by putting voters in districts that are completely rigged. And that is not American. It's not Democratic. It is not what this country deserves. And I'm so thankful to the lawmakers who are standing up and who have those stiff spines because we certainly know that the ones in Congress do not.
- [41:45]
Spencer Kuvan
Janee Nelson, Texas Representative oh, Texas. Go ahead. Go ahead. I didn't want to cut you off. Go ahead, Jen.
- [41:52]
Barbara Gervin Hawkins
I'll tell you, not only just taking seats, but we're talking about historically African American seats. We're talking about the seat of Barbara Jordan, Mickey Leland, you know, Senator Eddie Bernice Johnson. We're talking about trying to marginalize us in a way that's not only illegal, but is wrong. And as I share with my colleagues as we're on this journey, this fight is bigger than us. And that's why they've left jobs, they've left their children, their families. But so it's a major sacrifice. But it's so important to save democracy and to save America and bring an awareness to it. We had to do it. There was no second thoughts about it. And again, we're all here for the long haul.
- [42:37]
Spencer Kuvan
So grateful for you. A shot of energy in my soul at nearly 10 o'.
- [42:41]
Janae Nelson
Clock.
- [42:41]
Spencer Kuvan
And I thank so many people watching. Thank you both so much for being here with me tonight. We'll be right back. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue Sky, Instagram and TikTok.
- [42:58]
Jacob Soborov
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with MSNBC reporter Jacob Soborov.
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Nicole Wallace
It's about the connection that you and I have and our colleagues have. But it's also about the connection and the trust that people place in us at a time when trust in media, I think, is at all time lows.
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Jacob Soborov
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