← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The CDC is being 'transformed into a weapon': Top doctor exits CDC with a warning
00:41:24
Dr. Demetre Daskalakis, who resigned in protest from his position as director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, talks with Jen Psaki about the valuable work being done by the people at the CDC, and how the Trump administration, through HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., is corrupting the CDC with unscientific attitudes and agendas.
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- [00:01]
Jen Psaki
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Jen Psaki
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Jen Psaki
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- [00:31]
Jen Psaki
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Jen Psaki
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- [01:15]
Jen Psaki
Everyone knows. Everyone watching. You all know the President of the United States is the head of the executive branch of government, obviously. And that means no matter who this person is, they have a lot of power. Even that yahoo who you can see behind my shoulder. But presidents are not all powerful. That's one thing that we need to be very clear about and keep stating. They cannot just do whatever the heck they want. And that's one of the reasons why there are a bunch of important jobs throughout the federal government that are designed as independent from the White House and from the president, whoever is the president. Jobs where people remain in their roles through administrations of both parties. Some of These jobs have 10 year terms, 12 year terms, 14 year terms. Jobs where new presidents are not allowed to come in and just start firing people. But as we've seen, Trump has been on a bit of a total rampage since taking office, firing as many of those independent voices as he can possibly get away with. Now, there may be people or jobs that most people haven't heard of, but they are still very important. They're playing very important roles in the government, some of the most important ones. Now, in January, Trump fired two members of the National Labor Relations Board, the agency that protects the rights of private sector employees against unfair labor practices. A pretty important thing. He also fired two members of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which protects workers from discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, age, or disability. Also very important, in February, he fired the chair of the Merit System Protection Board, which protects federal workers from being forced out of their jobs without cause. And in March, he fired two Democrats on the Federal Trade Commission, the agency responsible for protecting American consumers from fraud. To be absolutely clear here, in case there's any doubt, Trump was not allowed to fire any of those people under the law. And at the time, many of them stood up and challenged their firings in court. Not an easy thing to do, by the way. And one case even made its way to the Supreme Court. Now, as you might expect, the court's conservative majority was all too eager to validate Donald Trump's reckless actions. In a 6, 3 decision, all six conservative justices decided to let Trump's firing stand while the case played out in the lower courts. How courageous of them. But even those six very conservative justices, three of them whom Trump nominated himself, remember, make clear that there are some people Donald Trump should not be allowed to fire, effectively saying there are some jobs that are so important they must be protected from presidential overreach. Specifically, they said the president should not be able to arbitrarily fire members of the Federal Reserve because, as they said, the Federal Reserve is a uniquely structured institution with a distinct historical tradition of independence, all for good reason. So their message was pretty clear. I mean, the conservative justices were basically saying, all right, Donald, we're going to let you fire these people that no president has been allowed to fire before. But we're drawing the line at the Federal Reserve. Do not try to fire anyone on the Federal Reserve's Board of Governors. That was the message Trump got from a co. Equal branch of government, a conservative one, by the way. But what those conservative justices should have known, what everybody watching this probably knows and knew before they did, is this. If you give Donald Trump an inch, he will always take a mile. And so last week, Trump just blatantly leaped over that red line that the Supreme Court drew for him. He fired Lisa Cook, a member of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors. And another brazen, likely illegal power grab. But here's the other thing that happened. Lisa Cook made it very clear that she is not going to go down without a fight. Today, she filed a lawsuit challenging Trump's authority, telling the court that if Trump is allowed to fire her, then he can, quote, remove any Federal Reserve Board member with whom he disagrees about policy based on chalked up allegations. Yeah, exactly. Lisa Cook understands that the only way to stop Donald Trump from seizing absolute power for himself is to fight back. And she's not the only one. Today, Trump fired another member of an independent agency, a member of the Surface Transportation Board who Trump himself actually appointed during his first term. He too is vowing to challenge his firing. And other federal officials are standing up as well. On Monday, more than 180 current and former officials at FEMA wrote an open letter blasting the Trump administration for how it has hampered the disaster relief agency. They wrote, quote, our shared commitment to our country, our oaths of office and our mission of helping people before, during and after disasters compel us to warn Congress and the American people of the cascading effects of decision made by the decisions made by the current administration. And now at least 30 current FEMA officials have been put on leave simply for signing that letter. This is an agency that responds to disasters. People rely on this agency, including two people who are working on providing disaster relief to Texas communities impacted by the recent floods. But they did not stand down despite the risk of losing their jobs. And neither are the officials working in the cdc. Last night, we talked about this last night. But last night Trump abruptly tried to fire his own hand picked CDC director who was approved by the Republican controlled Senate less than a month ago after she refused to go along with RFK Jr. S anti vaccine agenda. Her firing then prompted several other high ranking officials to resign in protest. And it also led to this today. This was the scene outside the CDC where hundreds, yes, hundreds you can see there, of CDC employees walked out in honor of those departing officials. Most of the people you see there are current CDC officials who were unafraid to stand up and voice their opposition to what this administration is doing to their agency, to public health information. And they have good reason to be upset right now. Remember, it was just over two weeks ago that an armed gunman fired over 180 shots into the CDC headquarters, killing a police officer in the process. The gunshots pierced through blast resistant glass, breaking over 150 windows. And to give you just a sense, obviously it's incredibly scary, but just to give you just a sense of how scary this was to those who were there, CDC staff described feeling like sitting ducks, like sitting ducks as the gunfire rained down on them. And again, they have every right to feel anger and outrage that the shooter was reportedly motivated by anti vaccine conspiracies, the same anti vaccine conspiracies that have been peddled by Health Secretary RFK Jr. Who oversees the CDC. But the day after the shooting, RFK Jr. Was notably silent on that deliberate and violent attack on his workforce. The next day, he even posted a series of pictures of himself having fun on a fishing trip before he found the time to express his condolences. Yes, that's him on a fishing trip just right after that shooting. And unfortunately, that utterly, completely bungled response is just one of many ways RFK Jr. Is undermining the CDC. I mean, back in June, he fired every member of the CDC's expert panel on vaccines and replaced them with his own handpicked group of vaccine experts. So skeptics, I should say. They're not experts. They're skeptics. He thinks they're experts. And today the New York Times reports that Secretary Kennedy recently dragged the CDC director into his office and demanded she either allow that panel to restrict access to vaccines or resign. The Washington Post also reports tonight that three senior leaders who resigned in protest said they were asked to participate in an unscientific vaccine recommendation process that they believe could harm the health of Americans. That is unbelievable. One said the last straw for him was being forced to work with a proponent of the false claim that vaccines cause autism, who was hired by HHS to review old vaccine safety data and study a possible link between the two. Now all of that has led to this historic standoff we are watching play out right now at the cdc. Today the White House said they will appoint a new acting director of the cdc, a former employee of Trump mega donor Peter Thiel, who has been serving as RFK Jr. S right hand man. What on earth could go wrong there? Everyone. It's hard to tell. Lots of things. All of this is so concerning that even Senate Republicans are calling for the CDC to postpone its upcoming vaccine approval meeting, citing the current turmoil in CDC leadership. That's one way of describing it. Needless to say, the departure of competent leadership at the CDC means that RFK Jr. Is going to have even more control over the agency responsible for preventing the spread of deadly disease. And that is incredibly disconcerting given the fact that he continues to spread baseless conspiracies about vaccine safety and Americans health. That's basically what he does. I mean, just yesterday he claimed that he can diagnose what is wrong with America's children on a cellular level simply by looking at them.
- [10:05]
Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis
I'm looking at kids as I walk through the airports today, as I walk.
- [10:10]
Graham Platner
Down the street and I see these kids that are just overburdened with mitochondrial Challenges with inflammation.
- [10:18]
Jen Psaki
You can tell from their faces, from.
- [10:20]
Graham Platner
Their body movements and from their lack of social connection. And I know that that's not how our children are supposed to look.
- [10:32]
Jen Psaki
I mean, there are people shaking their heads and are screaming. I don't even know what's happening there. It's crazy. Remember, that guy does not have a medical degree of any kind whatsoever, but he's apparently diagnosing the cellular history of children just by looking at them in the airport. This is the guy who once drove around with a sawed off whale head in his car. Don't forget that. An incident that of course should not be confused with the time he dumped a dead bear cub in Central park, which also happened. So RFK Jr. S incompetence, his apparent detachment from reality, his bizarre behavior in many levels would almost be funny if it weren't so dangerous. But if you're looking for a reason not to despair, a reason to stay hopeful, and we always try to look for those moments, look no further than the many principal people who are standing up and pushing back. One of the officials who resigned from the CDC in protest is Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis, who until last night was the head of the national center for Immunization and Respiratory Disease, which is a very important and big job now. In a letter explaining his resignation, he wrote, quote, I am unable to serve in an environment that treats CDC as a tool to generate policies and materials that do not reflect scientific reality and are designed to hurt rather than to improve the public's health. Having worked in local and national public health for years, I have never experienced such radical non transparency, nor have I seen such unskilled manipulation of data to achieve a political end rather than the good of the American people. He goes on to say, my grandfather, who I am named after, stood up to fascist forces in Greece and lost his life doing so. I'm resigning to make him and his Legacy proud. Today, Dr. Raskalakis was met with a chorus of cheers from his fellow scientists as he left the CDC headquarters. And he left them with this promise to keep fighting.
- [12:21]
Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis
You are the people that protect America and America needs to see that. You are the people that protect America and we are going to be your loudest advocates.
- [12:36]
Jen Psaki
Dr. Dimitri dos Kolakis joins me here in just 90 seconds.
- [12:49]
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- [13:22]
Jen Psaki
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- [14:09]
Jen Psaki
Joining me now is Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis. He just resigned as the director of the national center on Immunization and Respiratory Diseases. He was clapped out today, I should add, by current and former employees. Today you can see him walking out there with flowers. There were hundreds of employees who clapped out the team who resigned. It's great to see you. I know the last 24 hours have probably been an incredible whirlwind for you, and I think so many people out there watching are just trying to figure out what is going on. But. And I have a lot to ask you about, but I want to just start by asking you about what it felt like today to walk out there and have so many of your colleagues, so many people clapping for you. What was that moment like?
- [14:55]
Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis
So I didn't expect it. I know that we were going to walk out and have some folks clapping, and I expected to see 20 and 20 or 30 people. And instead there were hundreds and hundreds of people. And also there were folks in the Public Health Service and the commission corps who are saluting us from a distance. And so, you know, I was really overwhelmed. I mean, you know, I think, you know, I was crying walking down that path, both with joy as well as with sadness because they're the people that make CDC great and, you know, sort of living where we live now and sort of seeing how public health professionals have been dehumanized. People really need to see that human moment that the people that they're seeing in those images that you're playing right now are the people who do everything with such enthusiasm and so much love it's the people that make sure that the US stays healthy and that it stays safe. And so as people try to dehumanize public health workers through mis and disinformation, those images are burned in my mind as something that really reminds me of just how much CDC should be and could be about love.
- [16:00]
Jen Psaki
It's such an important point. I had the honor of working for two presidents and the overwhelming majority of people who work in government are apolitical, they're experts, they're nerds in the best way possible and that's who runs government. You wrote this? I just read a couple, a number of parts of it. But you wrote this incredibly powerful letter. I read it a couple of times and I just wanted to ask you about some of the things you said because it was all in your words. You wrote, I am unable to serve in an environment that treats CDC as a tool to generate policies and materials that do not reflect scientific reality and are designed to hurt rather than to improve the public's health. That is a very direct statement. And I think for those watching who are worried, they're worried, what are they going to gain access to? What does it mean? What should they listen to? Tell us more about what does that mean and how should people understand it who aren't experts and haven't worked in the cdc? No.
- [16:54]
Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis
Thanks so much for that question, Jen. And I think I'm going to start by saying I'm a doctor, so I see patients, I'm a clinician. And when I was in medical school and I finished, we raised our hands and made that Hippocratic oath that said first to do no harm. And I'm seeing CDC being transformed into a weapon where people are not allowed to share scientific data and that that scientific data is potentially going to be contaminated more and more with ide. And so as a clinician, as a doctor, I see that that is harm and I see that if science isn't able to shine through the ideology, then what we are going to see is a lot of trouble, both in sort of what my health is, what my kids health is like, but frankly also national security. So, you know, I could no longer be party to seeing the transformation of my brilliant scientists into something that could potentially hurt children.
- [17:56]
Jen Psaki
Was there one moment that led you to decide that pushed you over the edge to resign?
- [18:02]
Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's really been a death by a thousand cuts. So I think in my letter I have a list of some of the things that I experienced. I think that some of the things that Stand out. I think some people may recall that recently Secretary Kennedy put out a directive that changed the childhood immunization schedule and also the adult immunization schedule for COVID 19, making it more restrictive for children. That means limiting access, by the way, making it restrictive for children and also for pregnant women. And I'm never going to forget how I learned about it, which was on Twitter. So I was sitting in a senior leader meeting. I am one of the COVID experts, one of the vaccine experts. And at a senior leader meeting at cdc, my phone blew up and it was people saying, we didn't know that you changed the vaccine schedule. And then they said, there's this video online that you can see. And that's how we learned about it. And then we had to ask for, can we get some paper? Can we get something in writing so we can figure out how to implement this directive? Since all we had was the video, we eventually got the paper. And my job as a scientist is to say, can we also see the data that led to that decision? And that data was never provided to.
- [19:20]
Jen Psaki
Cdc because it probably wasn't based on data, I don't think. I mean, you were the medical expert, but that's the core issue here at play. It feels like one of the things you also said, which I wasn't aware of, is that you said in your letter, we are now seven months into the new administration, and no CDC subject matter expert from my center has ever briefed the secretary. And I've never worked in the cdc, but I spent a lot of time in government, and I can tell you that completely abnormal it is the experts who should be providing the information updates. And most presidents want that information. Most secretaries want that information. But how abnormal is that? Like, how often would the secretary be briefed by experts in the cdc?
- [20:04]
Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis
It's extremely abnormal. And so I think having been in federal government for five years, in local government for a long time as well, experts are really sort of the key individuals brief principles. So brief the secretary and secretary like individuals so that they're able to really guide their thinking around policy. So it is true that my center covers measles, Covid flu, polio. I have a long list of things that the secretary really should be briefed about. And I'll also add that I had the opportunity to interact with some of his staff from the office of the Secretary in big senior leader meetings, where I explicitly said, we have never briefed the secretary on anything. We really appreciate the opportunity. Measles, obviously, is something that he has said a lot about. I have no idea where he's getting that information, but it's not from CDC.
- [21:04]
Jen Psaki
Experts, probably not from medical experts. I suspect if it's not aligned with your thinking. You also said, I know I keep bringing up your letter because it was so powerful. Everybody should read it. We'll post it. You say eugenics play plays prominently in the rhetoric being generated. I think anybody who's been paying attention would agree with you. But from, from your perspective, tell us more about what you mean by that.
- [21:27]
Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis
Yeah, I mean, I think that the whole rhetoric behind the movement that Secretary, Secretary Kennedy thinks that he's launched is really that only the strong survive. So whether it's cutting social programs that are so. That are important to children, whether it's cutting access to food, so, you know, making America healthy means good food. So, you know, cutting things like food benefits for children seems like it's not a really good idea to be able to achieve that end. So, you know, I think that. And, you know, he. He clearly has a belief, you know, if he actually does believe in viruses and bacteria, which I don't know if he actually does, and in the fact that they exist, but, you know, he has this belief that sometimes infection is better than vaccine because, you know, it creates. I think, you know, the people who survive are the people who should continue propagate the species. I'm never going to forget there was an interview that he did at a restaurant talking about the importance of using beef tallow in french fries. And in that interview, he was talking about his desire to have avian flu burn through chickens. And the chickens that survive, they're the ones that should be bred. And that is. Those are the words that he said. They're available to watch. And he said, because those chickens have the superior genetics. And. And then one minute later, he said that the president also has superior genetics. So, I mean, from my perspective, as someone who has sort of the cultural background of a grandfather who was killed fighting fascism in Greece, that sort of like, embedded in my brain, and I heard that, and I'm like, so that's what this is all about. So if there are kids who get infected and do well, that's great. We shouldn't be giving them vaccines, I guess, so we can really propagate the strongest of the species. I feel like what he said about chickens is what he believes about people. And that's scary, and America should know that. So it is a major. This is like there is a fundamental thing happening here that I think we all resigned, the three of us Dr. Hari, myself and Dr. Jernigan to raise the red flag that something is extremely wrong and dangerous in this country.
- [23:49]
Jen Psaki
It is so powerful what you're doing. I think people are so scared out there. Public health is such an important part of our society and our community. And I have no doubt I have a great grandfather who he's passed away, but who also was a doctor. I feel very connected to you. I have no doubt he would be very, very proud of you. Thank you for being so vocal and for being here with us tonight. I really appreciate it.
- [24:12]
Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis
Really great meeting you.
- [24:13]
Jen Psaki
I okay, up next, more to come. I'm going to do my best to answer the questions from today's White House press briefing. One of them was even about me, believe it or not. And later, the blue CDA clapping back at Trump over his threats to send in the National Guard. We'll talk to him, too.
- [24:34]
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- [25:07]
Jen Psaki
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- [25:12]
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- [25:50]
Jen Psaki
So the White House decided to hold a press briefing today. What a day to hold a briefing. One where, believe it or not, I came up personally and I will definitely get to that. I promise. But I'll start with a couple of others. So let's start with Brandon Tatum, who is a YouTuber.
- [26:07]
Graham Platner
I want to ask the question of we know that it's not a gun thing. Any rational person knows it's not a gun thing. We know It's a mental health issue. So I want to know from you, what is President Trump and the White House going to do to address mental health issues around the country associated with these shootings?
- [26:26]
Jen Psaki
Well, first off, Brandon feels like someone in the White House may have written that question for you. But it is definitely a gun thing, and any rational person knows that, because mental health issues are not a unique issue to the United States. But guess what is gun violence. We have more guns per capita than any other developed country and also a higher rate of gun violence than any other developed country. So, yeah, Brandon, it's the guns. And for what the administration will do to address mental health issues around the country, which I certainly hope they do more. I mean, right now they are talking about targeting SSRI medication, which people use to combat depression. It's a little bit of a bizarre strategy, Brandon. Now, if we actually want to talk about mental health issues, which I agree is a major issue, we could talk about expanding mental health access or putting money toward community outreach programs. Or we could talk about how to combat online radicalization as it appears like this shooter, like others, was influenced by a fringe extremist and nihilistic online culture. I think we both know they actually have no intention of doing any of those things. All right, Gabe Gutierrez, NBC News. Go ahead.
- [27:35]
Larry Krasner
On the firing of the CDC director, first, who will replace her? And then also overnight, the White House.
- [27:40]
Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis
Said that she did not align with the president's agenda. Dr. Manaros Attorneys say that she refused to rubber stamp unscientific reckless directives and fire dedicated health experts. To what specifically did she do?
- [27:54]
Jen Psaki
Well, Gabe, what she did was actually very right, which was to listen to the science and the data and the experts and not the conspiratorial recommendations of RFK Jr. When she made her COVID vaccine recommendations. So putting expertise over ideology is what RFK Jr. Thinks she did wrong. The White House even said it out loud in their statement when they said she, quote, wasn't aligned with the president's mission to make America healthy again, assures her about that. As for who will replace her, well, the White House has tapped RFK Jr. S deputy, Jim O', Neill, as the new acting CDC director. And one HHS official told us that O' Neill will, quote, do anything Secretary Kennedy and Stephanie Speier will tell him to do. And that quote pretty much tells you all you need to know about that guy. Okay, one more. Reagan Reese, Daily Caller why not? Democrats, including former White House press Secretary Jen Psaki and Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Bray, attacked Breyer and pushed gun control in the aftermath of yesterday's shooting. What's the White House's response to their comments? It's quite a phrasing of your question there, but here's the thing. Prayer is a powerful source of comfort for so many people around the world during difficult times, including me. I completely feel that way. And what I said yesterday and will say again now, though, is that prayer alone is not enough to prevent and end the crisis of gun violence in America. Here are some stats for use by anyone in the briefing room, whether you're at the podium or in the room. We live in a country where there are more guns than people. There have been five school shootings since the start of the school year on August 1, less than a month ago, and 57 school shootings since January. And the fact that parents like me have to worry every day about whether or not our kids are safe at school is what we should be talking about. So the issue I raised yesterday and I will raise again today and I will not stop raising, is that people in power, like, say, people in the White House who are using their platforms to do anything other than call for action for sensible gun safety measures, they're doing anything else, like attacking me, which is a waste of time. They're doing anything but saying what should be done to help prevent tragedies like the shooting in Minneapolis. And because they're not doing that, frankly, they're not doing enough and people shouldn't accept they're doing enough. So instead of focusing on the bad faith back and forth, I hope the question someone asks in the next briefing, anyone in the room, is why the Trump administration doesn't support universal background checks for gun sales when more than 80% of the country supports them. Why the Trump administration doesn't support making it harder for people with mental illnesses to purchase a gun despite more than 80% of the country supporting that. And why the Trump administration doesn't support a ban on assault weapons when the majority of the country does look to solve this long epidemic of violence requires action. And when kids in pews who are praying are shot, to quote the statement from Sisters of Mercy on the Minnesota Catholic school shooting, our response can no longer be thoughts and prayers alone. Even Pope Leo, then a cardinal, I will note, retweeted Senator Chris Murphy in 2017, saying your cowardice to act cannot be whitewashed by thoughts and prayers. I would retweet that, too, and continue to Coming up after a quick break, Philadelphia's district attorney has a big warning for the Trump administration. If it follows through on threats to put more troops in U.S. cities. And he joins me here to talk about it next. Stay with us. Last Wednesday at 6am this was the scene in the Capitol Hill Neighborhood of Washington, D.C. a military vehicle, part of Trump's deployment of the National Guard, had T boned an suv. We have since learned that the National Guard vehicle ran a red light. But how bad this crash was is not the fault of any individual driver. If you put vehicles on the road, crashes will happen. The reason this incident is terrifying is the difference in size between these two vehicles. The car that was hit was an suv. It looks like a teeny sedan next to the National Guard vehicle. Look at them right there on your screen. Look at the people next to the cars. The National Guard car is twice as tall as they are. The D.C. national Guard has since identified the vehicle as an M ATV, an armored tactical vehicle with a V shaped hull that is designed to deflect roadside bombs. These vehicles weigh 14 tons, or about five times the weight of a standard SUV. These vehicles are meant for war zones, not DC traffic. Obviously, the same thing is true of actual National Guard troops. They are trained to fight in combat zones. They are trained to respond to national disasters. They are not trained to police American cities. But Trump is sending them anyway. First to Los angeles, now to D.C. next, who knows? Trump is threatening to send the Guard into cities all around the country. So local leaders all around the country are preparing. They are coming up with plans for what to do if or when they are effectively invaded by their own federal government. Joining me now is one of those local officials, Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner. Dia Krasner, thank you so much for being here with us tonight. Let me just start by asking, I mean, I just talked about some of the reasons why this is a terrible idea. But as someone who actually has to prosecute local crime and oversee it, what do you say?
- [33:08]
Larry Krasner
Well, first of all, I say Dr. Demetri is awesome.
- [33:11]
Jen Psaki
He is awesome.
- [33:12]
Larry Krasner
It is wonderful to see somebody just step up like that. What do I say in general? I mean, let's get the basics right, okay? It is a fact that the states that have voted for the Republican candidate for President for 25 years have been more dangerous and more prone to homicides than the Democratic states. This is a message that you haven't heard because Republicans just holler and carry on and act like they're good at public safety when they are terrible at public safety. Terrible. What we're seeing now is a typical Trumpian distraction from the reality that Washington D.C. and my city, Philadelphia, where I'm the DA, and Chicago and so many other cities are way safer than they've been in a very, very long time. Last year, 2024, from the Criminological perspective, set a record for improvement in public safety. And yet we have Donald Trump lying as usual and claiming that there is a crisis. The crisis is Donald Trump. The criminal is Donald Trump. This is a man who's been convicted of 34 different felonies. And the only reason it isn't more is he kind of slowed it down by becoming president. That, that's the reality. And let's not forget his four hacks on the Supreme Court. But having said all of that, what do I have? It is one more thing that is a terrible idea for public safety. Cutting a safety net for poor people is a terrible idea for public safety. Shifting resources from going after people who shoot people in order to spend our time going after hard working immigrants is a terrible idea. And this is one more terrible idea. Just a quick historical point. Kent State. Anybody remember Kent State? I do. I was a kid when it happened. We had, I think it was four students who were shot to death. We had one who was paralyzed. We had a number of others who were injured when National Guard troops were improperly, unnecessarily deployed at a university due to protests around the Vietnam War. And they did the only thing they know how to do, which is kill the enemy. Except those students were not the enemy. They were not the enemy. And history, in many ways is very much on their side that they needed to speak out and try to stop the slaughter of, frankly, their generational peers who were drafted and sent to a war that we all look back on with quite a bit of regret. Okay, so you're absolutely right. People do not join the National Guard to be civilian peacekeeper police officers. They're not drawn to it for that reason. They're not trained for it. They do not have arrest powers. They have no training in de escalation or individual civil rights. And this is disastrous. And it is all done for one very simple reason. What reason?
- [35:54]
Jen Psaki
Yeah, you've said this, and I want you to expand on that more. I mean, you've also said that he's doing this to normalize military presence in American cities. I totally agree with you. He wants people to feel like this is normal. He intends to carry out a coup is what you said. Expand on what you mean by that. What does that look like? How would he do that? What's he trying to do?
- [36:12]
Larry Krasner
Well, it looks like January 6th, except as a redo, it looks like enlisting the Russian government to try to, to bias the outcome of an election. He's done this before. He's talking about it right now. He's saying right now he's not going to leave office. He's going to have a third term. You don't need to vote again. I mean, I'm not coming up with crazy stuff here. It's coming out of his mouth. What he is up to is making it seem normal for the president to take powers that do not belong to him. And the 10th Amendment is very clear that he cannot commandeer local law enforcement to do the things that he's doing. Posse Comitatus, which is a statute that dates from the Civil War. It's very clear you cannot just use the military in order to go after a civilian population. And he's trying to justify it with a wholly, completely, utterly fictitious claim that there is some kind of an emergency. There is no question in my mind that very much in the vein of his hero, Vladimir Putin, he is trying to make people think that it's normal to put a bunch of military vehicles and troops, troops now, armed troops, in the middle of a civilian population where God knows what they will do.
- [37:20]
Jen Psaki
You have made very clear that if he sends National Guard troops to your town, you will. And they commit crimes, you will prosecute them. And Trump would not be able to pardon them, which is important for people to remember. Larry Krasner, thank you so much for joining us and speaking truth out there. People need to hear it. Coming up, he's an oyster farmer, a veteran of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, who warns about the billionaire class and corrupt politicians. He's also vying to become Maine's next Democratic senator and joins me after a short break. You might remember this moment back in 2017 when Republican Senator Susan Collins, fresh off of her vote against her party's effort to kill the Affordable Care act, arrived in Bangor Airport in her home state of Maine. She was greeted with a spontaneous round of applause from her constituents. She had after just help save health care for millions upon millions of Americans. Now, eight years later, the relationship between Senator Collins and her constituents is looking very different. Having not held a town hall in years, take a look at how she was greeted at a ribbon cutting ceremony in her state earlier this week. Let us get through this brief ceremony to celebrate something that really matters to this, this historic community. Those people screaming shame. In case you couldn't make that out now, it's against the backdrop of Donald Trump's deeply unpopular agenda that candidates are jumping into the 2026 Race for Maine Senator Soonson Collins has not officially thrown her hat in the ring, but others aren't waiting around. That includes Graham Platner, an oyster farmer and Army Marine veteran who's getting a lot of attention for ads like this one.
- [39:15]
Graham Platner
I did four infantry tours in the Marine Corps and the Army. I'm not afraid to name an enemy. And the enemy is the oligarchy. It's the billionaires who pay for it, the politicians who sell us out. And yeah, that means politicians like Susan Collins. I'm not fooled by this fake charade of Collins deliberation. The difference between Susan Collins and Ted Cruz is at least Ted Cruz is honest about selling us out and not giving a damn.
- [39:41]
Jen Psaki
There you go. Joining us now is Graham Platner, Democratic candidate for U.S. senate in Maine. It is great to see you. And that's quite an ad, I will say. I've seen lots of ads. Let me start by asking you this. I mean, Susan Collins has tried to break with Trump and voted against the big ugly bill, but she still did vote. And there's other things, too, to confirm Brett Kavanaugh and to confirm RFK Jr. Although we should note she said she's, quote, extremely alarmed, whatever that means by RFK's firing of the CDC director. Shocker there, but there's so many things to dive into. You don't have the big ugly bill, but what are you focusing your campaign most on to draw the contrast with her?
- [40:20]
Graham Platner
You know, at its core, Susan Collins has been in the senate for almost 30 years. And in those 30 years, material conditions have gotten worse for working class manners. And so at its base, it just seems like we really have to be doing something very different.
- [40:40]
Jen Psaki
That makes sense. Like, what do you want to do different than what she's doing?
- [40:44]
Graham Platner
I would like to fight for big things that are going to help working class people. Things like Medicare for all things like, like raising taxes on corporate interests and billionaires using the funds from those kind of things to pay for the would expand the programs that we currently have and to hopefully bring about new programs to help working class Americans live dignified and decent lives.
- [41:11]
Jen Psaki
You've had a really interesting run so far. I mean, you haven't been afraid to stand to the left of establishment Democrats. You told Jewish Insider that you believe what's happening in Gaza is a genocide. You posted on Reddit that you stand and right in the effing way of anyone coming after the LGBTQ community at the Same time, you've mentioned at campaign stops that you work with a lot of Trump supporters. And this kind of boggles the mind of D.C. people probably. I've spent a lot of time in campaigns. Doesn't boggle my mind. But for a lot of people, it may boggle people's minds. How do you, what is the coalition of people that you think you're gonna pull together? And tell me more about running on kind of a progressive message and still appealing to independents and even people who may have voted for Trump.
- [41:52]
Graham Platner
Trump, Yeah. I mean, so, I mean, I was born and raised here in eastern Hancock county where I live now. I came back here after my time overseas and got into aquaculture and became an oyster farmer. And for me, the path forward is pretty simple. Down here in the real world, working class people have effectively the same interests. We are watching our healthcare system fall apart. We are watching the affordability crisis make everything unaffordable. We've watched wages stagnate and prices rise. Nobody my age or younger can seem to afford a home around here. And that's going to touch you whether you voted for Donald Trump or you didn't, whether you're a Democrat or you're a Republican, those interests are effectively all the same. And when you living in a town of a thousand people in a rural part of Maine, I don't have the luxury of like, I don't know, choosing friends based upon who they voted for. I mean, we, I live in a small town and yeah, I don't shy away from my stances on, on, on many things. And I still have excellent relationships with, with many people who I think in the more kind of, you know, the political world would think we would have to be some kind of, like, you would have to live at odds with each other. But we don't because we are working people that work next to each other. And when I talk to those folks, it is very clear that they know the same thing that I know, which is that we live in a system that is not built to represent the interest of working people. And for me, the core of this campaign is changing, that is building back a working class coalition here in the state of Maine to fight for big policies and big changes that we need in many ways to make it livable down here to be a regular human being in America.
- [43:50]
Jen Psaki
People got to spend some time out in the country to understand everything you're talking about. And I think it's such an important message for people to hear. Before I let you go, let me just ask you. I mean, Governor Janet Mills said she's seriously considering a Senate run. She's not in the race yet. If she jumps into the race, does that change anything for you?
- [44:07]
Graham Platner
No, no. I mean, we're, we're going to run the race that we're going to run. I, for me, building out a, building out a real ground ground game, focusing on organizing, focusing on frankly, kind of old shoe leather style campaigning. Lots of canvassers, lots of field organizers. That's the kind of campaign I want to run. That's how I feel like we're going to be able to appeal across the working class in the state of Maine. And, you know, whoever else jumps in the race, that's fine. We're still going to do exactly. We're going to do this the way we want to. I think it's a winning strategy and that's what we're going to continue doing.
- [44:43]
Jen Psaki
Graham Pletner, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. We'll be right back.
- [44:47]
Graham Platner
Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
- [44:51]
Jen Psaki
That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok. Back for now. Goodbye from Washington and we'll see you next week.
- [45:03]
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- [45:12]
Jen Psaki
I need a coffee.
- [45:13]
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