Miles Taylor (6:39)

The yeas are 50, the nays are 50, the Senate being equally divided, the Vice President votes. Affirmative and the point of order is sustained. Got to make sure.

John (7:02)

If you're wondering what the heck was happening there, the Vice President of the United States was basically was checking on how he was supposed to vote on this thing. To give his boss unchecked power. Yes, no present. How was he supposed to vote? That's what he was asking when he put his hand over the microphone. And then he had a little chuckle about it. Look, it's been obvious for quite some time this is not exactly a team of generational talents. I mean, even Trump's loyal press secretary, Caroline Levitt, seems to be kind of cracking under the pressure of the job. Here she was earlier today when a reporter asked her a very legitimate question about the absolute terror and chaos that Trump's immigration crackdown is prompting.

Reporter (7:41)

Earlier you were just defending ICE agents generally. And earlier on, Secretary Nolan spoke to the media and she said, among other things, that they are doing everything correctly. 32 people died in ICE custody last year. 170 U.S. citizens were detained by ICE. And Renee Goode was shot in the Head and killed by an ICE agent. How does that equate to them doing everything correctly?

Caroline Levitt (8:06)

Why was Renee Goode unfortunately and tragically killed?

Reporter (8:10)

Are you asking me my opinion? Because an ICE agent acted recklessly and killed it. Unjustifiable.

Caroline Levitt (8:14)

Oh, okay, so you're a biased reporter with a left wing opinion.

Reporter (8:18)

What do you want me to do?

Caroline Levitt (8:19)

Yeah, because you're a left wing hack. You're not a reporter. You're posing in this room as a journalist.

John (8:25)

I mean, just some friendly advice from one former press secretary. You can't ask the reporter for his opinion, especially when there's a lot of video of what actually happened, which everybody has seen. I'm sure he has seen. Of course he has. And then attack him for telling what nearly everyone watching saw with their own eyes. But I understand why Caroline seems kind of stressed there, because they are failing on literally everything. And even her boss's signature issue is becoming increasingly impossible to defend. I mean, in many ways, it's Trump's biggest failure of all, given it was one of the reasons he got elected. And part of that is because of how they are running the agency test to enforce it. Remember, ICE is now the highest funded law enforcement agency in the country, thanks to Trump's big ugly bill. And to put that in perspective, it means that ICE is rapidly becoming the nation's largest domestic police force, with its size and power doubling that of the FBI. Now, as the Washington Post reports, they're planning to spend $100 million on a recruitment campaign to fill their ranks. And according to an internal document, they're targeting, quote, people who have attended UFC fights, people who have, quote, shown an interest in guns and tactical gear, and listeners of conservative radio shows, among other things. Really? Really. Sounds like a group of people there everyone would want armed in their communities, doesn't it? The people they're targeting, it's all a part of what the agency calls a wartime recruitment strategy. But so far, it doesn't seem like they've got the highest recruitment standards at all, to put it mildly. Or really any standards at all. I mean, this week, Slate writer Laura Jadid wrote a firsthand account of what happened when she applied for a job with ICE out of journalistic curiosity. It's an absolutely fascinating piece. After a short interview and a drug test that by her own admission should have shown her testing positive for cannabis, she says ICE just waved her through. She writes, somehow, despite never submitting any of the paperwork they sent me, not the background check or identification info, not the domestic violence affidavit, none of it. ICE had apparently offered me a job. And that was hardly an isolated incident. As NBC News reports today, an error in the AI tool that ICE uses to process new applicants sent many new recruits into field offices without proper training. According to two law enforcement sources, applicants without law enforcement backgrounds are required to take an eight week in person course, which includes courses in immigration law and handling a gun, as well as physical fitness tests. But the AI tool sent people with the word officer on their resumes to the shorter four week online training. For example, a compliance officer or people who said they aspired to be ICE officers. That's it. That level of incompetence is staggering, especially for what is now our nation's largest law enforcement agency. And it's especially concerning when you consider how many ICE agents have flooded into the city of Minneapolis. According to the Minnesota Star Tribune, the total number of federal agents the Trump administration says it is sending into the Twin Cities is equivalent to five times the manpower of the Minneapolis Police Department. Five times. And local officials say those agents are actively making it far more difficult for local law enforcement to do their jobs.

Elliot Payne (11:43)

Thousands of poorly trained, aggressive and armed agents of the state of the federal government have rolled into our communities, overwhelmed. Our local police departments and law enforcement agencies should be focused on our public safety, but instead, many are dealing with the aftermath of DHS agents, chaos and violence.

Miles Taylor (12:03)

600 police officers that we have are.

John (12:05)

Charged on any given day with investigating.

Miles Taylor (12:08)

Crime, stopping homicides from taking place, preventing carjackings.

John (12:13)

That's the work of a police officer in a city.

Miles Taylor (12:18)

Meanwhile, we have ICE agents throughout our.

John (12:21)

City and throughout our state who, along with border control, are creating chaos. Police are so busy now, responding to the mess ICE is creating, they're not able to be as responsive to the people they're supposed to serve. That's what they were just saying in those clips. Meanwhile, we continue to see daily examples of ICE agents using excessive force against civilians. We're seeing ICE agents brutalize both immigrants, suspected immigrants, and protesters on the streets of Minneapolis, tackling people, deploying tear gas, smashing windows, and pulling people out of cars. These are just some of the scenes we've seen ICE agents get physical, even ripping phones out of the hands of citizens, trying to film their activities. We've heard from a reported father of six who told Sky News that his children went to the hospital because ICE agents threw a tear gas canister underneath his car. We've seen videos like this showing an overzealous Border Patrol agent seeming to threaten someone they've detained with pepper Spray to the face, which is apparently excessive enough that the agent was seemingly restrained by another officer who appeared to know better. I guess that's good. But still, this is happening out there a lot. Even the president of the Minneapolis City Council says he was assaulted by ICE agents while observing an agent carrying out an arrest. I'm going to talk with him also in just a moment about what's actually happening on the ground. These are the kinds of heavy handed tactics the administration is defending. Secretary Christine Noem even said ICE agents are doing everything correctly. But it's never been more clear that the Trump administration is stoking this chaos on purpose. And we've seen this movie before. I mean, Trump used aggressive ICE tactics in Los Angeles and Chicago to create chaos, which he then used as justification to call on the National Guard and ratched up tensions even further. And now he's considering a more drastic escalation from Minneapolis. Today, Donald Trump threatened to invoke the Insurrection Act, a rarely used law that that would allow him to send the US Military into the streets. But unlike his National Guard deployments, invoking the Insurrection act would allow those troops to carry out law enforcement functions like making arrests and conducting searches. It would militarize the city of Minneapolis, pitting US Service members against their fellow Americans. Trump knows his ICE operations in Minneapolis have been a disaster, just like almost everything he is doing is a disaster. But Donald Trump does not know how to admit when he has failed. So instead, he pours more fuel on the fire, stokes more chaos, and makes things worse. Starting us off tonight is Miles Taylor. He was, of course, Chief of Staff at the Department of Homeland Security during Trump's first term and has been speaking out ever since, incredibly fearlessly. Miles, I know you and you've written pieces about this, too. You're a part of conversations about the Insurrection act during the first term. It seems to be one of the cycles of threats that Trump likes to throw out there. As you've watched the last week and you've heard his comments, do you think he'd actually try to invoke it now?

Miles Taylor (15:26)

I think he will. I think he will invoke it now. You think he'll do it? And this has been. I think he will do it. This has been 10 years in the making. He has been searching for almost a decade for the excuse, the right moment, the pretext, the visuals that would justify him invoking the Insurrection Act. And I can remember, Jen, when he first thought he had it, or one of the times he thought he had it. It was the eve of his State of the Union address in 2019. And we had to rush to the White House to intercept him in the map room as he was practicing on the teleprompter and keep him from having the stenographer type in an invocation of the Insurrection act into the address. And we went to White House Counsel's office and help them talk the President down because he wanted to invoke it. At that moment on the border, there was a caravan headed towards the United States, and that's what he wanted to use as justification. Remember, Jen, the law says there needs to be an invasion of the United States, a rebellion or an insurrection, and a group of people coming to the United States border to claim asylum didn't meet any of those criteria. But I will tell you this. Towards the end of my time in that administration, I sat down with Stephen Miller in his office on the second floor of the West Wing, you know, the space. And Stephen told me about how if Trump won reelection, it would be a shock and awe blitz of executive orders. And one of those things he would look to do was invoke the Insurrection act and they would try to run it up to the Supreme Court as fast as humanly possible to get a decision. I would not be surprised in the least if this year Donald Trump does it. He spent last year trying to foment circumstances in Los Angeles and Chicago and Portland to justify it. All of those failed. Now in Minneapolis, they see circumstances which to them might seem acceptable for the invocation. To anyone else, it will look lawless and unconstitutional because it will be and.

John (17:15)

It will completely militarize the streets of Minneapolis. I'm sure this is a model. I mean, there are so many reasons, and I was talking with some very smart people on my team about this today, that he might think about doing this right. He wants to normalize military in the streets. He wants to seem in control. He's incredibly insecure, and a lot of things are failing. What do you think and what is his end goal here as you've mapped this out in your head?

Miles Taylor (17:41)

Look, don't take my word for it. Listen to his own current chief of staff, Susie Wiles, right, who a month ago when those Vogue interviews came out, she said, he has an alcoholic's personality. But Donald Trump is a teetotaler. He doesn't drink. What he is drunk on is power. The man is drunk on power. And I don't say that facetiously, I don't say it hyperbolically. I go back to early in his first term and I remember when those cabinet members who didn't really know him got to know Donald Trump, and one of the things they discovered was he was on this constant quest to figure out what the apex of his powers were. Where was he most powerful? Because the man came into office deeply disappointed that he didn't have all the powers he thought he had. Trust me, the man has never read the United States Constitution. And he was confounded that he had checks from the executive branch in his own branch, that there were checks from Congress, that there were checks from the courts. And so he wanted to know, where am I most powerful? And early in the administration, that's when he was first told the words Insurrection Act. And ever since that moment, he. He was infatuated with it. I mean, I've said to people before, he started calling it by his own set of words, he called it his magical authorities. On more than two occasions, I heard him reference those powers as his magical authorities, because to him, if he invoked it, he could do everything he wanted. Now, that's not what the law says. That's not what the Constitution allows. But in Donald Trump's mind, this allows him to do anything that should worry all of us.

John (19:07)

He has a creepy obsession and disturbing obsession with politicizing the military, too. And I just keep thinking of these men and women, women who are being put in this impossible situation over and over again. You know, watching the. And I've talked to a lot of them over the course of the last week. Elected officials in Minneapolis, local officials, senators, others. It's heartbreaking what they're seeing, and they're all punching back very hard. But this is like a barreling movement from the Trump administration coming towards them. What would you tell them? You've thought so much about his thinking. What works and doesn't. What would you tell them? What advice would you give to the leaders of the city about how to deal with this?

Miles Taylor (19:47)

Well, one quick note first, Jen. Creepy is the right word here. We need to start using that more again, because Donald Trump's obsession with this was creepy. I can remember when he would go meet frontline agents, ICE agents, and he would find the toughest looking one, a guy with a sharp jaw, beefy arms, who looked like he was in Special Forces. He would go up to him and he'd put his hands on both shoulders and say, verbatim, you look like you're straight out of central casting. It was weird. But what Donald Trump didn't mean was, I want all of my ICE agents to look like soldiers instead of frumpy beat cops. He meant I want them to act like soldiers. So this has been long in the making and again, creepy. As for Jen, my advice to elected leaders in Minnesota, do what Illinois did, do what California did, go on legal offense against this administration. And as you know, Minnesota is starting to do that. They're doing that by suing about the invasion of ICE agents. What they also should be doing is preparing preemptive actions for the possibility that Donald Trump invokes the Insurrection Act. They need to go on legal offense. And you know what? I'm heartened to see so many state and locals doing exactly that. They've gotten the message. They're standing up. They are being defiant.

John (20:56)

The only way to be in this moment is on offense. Otherwise he will keep pushing and plowing forward. Miles Taylor, thank you. As always, so insightful, chilling, but important for people to hear. Thank you again.

Miles Taylor (21:08)

Thanks, Jen.

John (21:09)

Okay, coming up, what are we hearing from people like Stephen Miller and Kristi Noem about what is happening in Minneapolis? What we're hearing is basically the opposite of what is actually happening there. And we know this because journalists are on the ground and citizens are sharing videos. And we're seeing it with our own eyes. Elliot Payne is the president of the Minneapolis City Council. He says he was assaulted by an ICE officer earlier this week and that he has not that has not stopped him from peacefully protesting with the people he serves, which is pretty remarkable. Elliot Payne joins me next.

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John (23:04)

What the Trump administration claims federal agents are doing in Minneapolis is very, very different from what we are seeing and hearing from the residents on the ground. And I want to show you what I mean. In just a moment, the left side of the screen is going to be Trump's DHS Secretary Kristi Noemi, talking to the press today about ICE agents and their operations. And on the right is going to be just some of the video that we have gotten in just the past week from the Twin Cities. Take a look.

Kristi Noem (23:29)

Our ICE agents are following the law and running their operations according to training. Every single action that our ICE officers take is according to the law and following protocols that we have used for years. In every situation, we're doing targeted enforcement. The officers that we have out there are very highly trained and skilled, specific for the operations that they're doing. They're utilizing the most gifted individuals on these operations. Many times they're going after murderers. They're going after professionals and gangs and terrorists that are here in our country illegally.

John (24:04)

You would have to be blind. And none of you are to notice the massive disconnect happening right there. I mean, I sure do. And my next guest is someone who has witnessed what ICE is doing for himself. He's been in the community. He's been walking the streets with the people he represents. Elliot Payne is, of course, the president of the Minneapolis City Council. On Monday evening, he was recorded being shoved by an ICE officer while observing their activity. Right after the incident, he said, quote, if this is how they treat the president of the Minneapolis City Council who is legally observing, just think of what they're doing to everyone else in our city. Quite a chilling statement. Minneapolis City Council President Elliot Payne. Welcome. Thank you for being here with me tonight. I know it's been an incredibly tough couple of weeks in the city you love. One of the big challenges right now, not nearly as challenging as what you're experiencing on the ground, but is that the administration is lying every day about what is happening. Every statement they put out, the information is not consistent with what we're seeing on the ground. And I'm not there. We're looking at the video. We're talking to people like you. I mean, today, Kristi Noem claimed that in every situation, we are doing targeted enforcement. You have a very good sense of what's happening on the ground there in Minneapolis. We showed some video there but how would you describe these operations that you're seeing throughout the city right now?

Elliot Payne (25:22)

Oh, this is completely indiscriminate. This is lawless, it's reckless, it's chaotic, it is anything but targeted. My experience is that I'm walking up and down Central Avenue, which is the major commercial corridor in my ward that represent. And you will just see vans and vans of ICE agents driving through, fully militarized. And in that video clip that you just showed, they just pulled up to somebody sitting at the bus stop waiting to go home. This is a US Citizen who just happens to not have the correct color skin and they start harassing him. I walk up and I just record them. I introduce myself as the Minneapolis council president. I asked for name and badge number. They don't share it. And there's one of their agents is running around waving his taser at everybody, unholstered and just being completely belligerent. And I was paying attention to that individual when the other one came from behind and pushed me. This is not, this is not the operations of a disciplined law enforcement agency. I mean, everybody knows this is the city where George Floyd was murdered. We've been spending years reforming our police department, implementing a state consent decree, still continuing to implement a federal consent decree, even though the Trump administration withdrew that. I've, I've personally witnessed use of force training. I've gone and audited those classes. This is not the work of a well trained police force, no question.

John (26:49)

I mean, they're creating a tremendous amount of chaos. And they're multiples the size of the police force locally, which tells you so much. One of the other things they are really consistently doing is they are trying to describe the protesters, the peaceful protesters, as professional, or I just want to get the words right here, professional or paid agitators. To be absolutely clear, we've seen no evidence of that. It seems to be people in their communities leaving their homes or joining to support their neighbors. But you've actually been in these communities, you know these people, who are they?

Elliot Payne (27:23)

This is a meme that the Trump administration uses to gaslight us every single time that any level of protest in our country. I went to the site of the shooting just one week after the killing of Renee Good on the north side of Minneapolis. And all I saw were people actually respecting the police line. Even when our police department took steps back to de escalate the situation. Those protesters weren't crossing the line. They were expressing their First Amendment rights. They were telling ICE to get out of our city, and they were recording I walked around the perimeter of that scene and I witnessed another person trying to hand out a pocket constitution to these officers. Because clearly, these people need a new lesson on what our Constitution is and means and how important it is to us. So what I see is just our neighbors coming out to bear witness and to support our community and to say, no, we will not tolerate this unlawful occupation of our city.

John (28:30)

It's really incredible. I'm sure you've seen that Trump today threatened to invoke the Insurrection Act. And my last guest, who was the former chief of staff, the Department of Homeland Security worked for him, said he thinks he's going to do it. He's been waiting to do it. What impact that is militarizing the city of Minneapolis, that is sending in people to the city who are US Service men and women. What impact would that have on your city?

Elliot Payne (28:57)

Well, the power that we have as elected leaders comes from the citizens of the United States through their voting. We only get to have the power that we have by their generosity. And that power is given to us, and it can be taken away from us. And they are showing their power every single day by organizing, by patrolling our community, by providing mutual aid to families that are just trying to get their kids to school, just trying to get groceries, just trying to stay in their homes and keep their rent paid and their heat on. The way that we are organized and caring for each other in Minneapolis is growing stronger every single day that this occupation is happening. And if the Trump administration wants to escalate, we still have our united community that is here standing up and standing strong.

John (29:47)

We've really seen the power of the spirit of the people of Minneapolis over the last week, and unfortunately, so many times with all of the tragedies you've had to go through this year. Minneapolis City Council President Elliot Payne, thank you so much for being here with me tonight.

Elliot Payne (30:00)

Thank you for having me, John.

John (30:02)

Okay, coming up. Thankfully, I never had to walk into the White House briefing room to take questions about my boss threatening to send the US Military into an American city or musing about canceling elections. But that's exactly what Caroline Levitt had to do today, and it did not go great for her. No surprise. So I'm going to step in and provide a few facts when we come back.

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John (31:47)

So today there was yet another incredible as in not at all credible press briefing at the White House. And normally when I talk about the White House press briefings and answer questions, I normally don't play what Trump's White House press secretary, Caroline Levitt, says because most of what she says is not worth repeating and I'm not trying to give a platform. But today was an exception. Take a listen to her response to this question from the Daily Mail's John Michael Raich.

Ben Rhodes (32:13)

President Trump has talked twice in recent days, once at the Kennedy center and then to Reuters again last night about canceling the election. Why is he talking about this?

John (32:20)

Ms.

Caroline Levitt (32:21)

I believe you're referring to the President's interview at Reuters last night. I was in that interview. It was a closed door interview. Obviously there was not audio or video. The President was simply joking.

John (32:33)

I don't know about you, but I find the sitting president of the United States joking about canceling the next elections absolutely hilarious. Absolutely. Just joking there. Now, the reason, of course, I'm clearly kidding, that this is of course alarming and not funny at all, is that Trump keeps bringing up his desire to to cancel the midterm elections and he's doing things to try to make it harder for people to vote effectively. He's trying to end our nation's democratic experiment altogether. But the real reason I wanted to play that is because when Andrew Feinberg from the Independent presses her on the issue again, she just attacks him personally instead of answering his question.

Elliot Payne (33:12)

Americans for generations have fought and died.

John (33:14)

For democracy, for this democracy. Are you saying the president finds the idea of canceling elections funny?

Kristi Noem (33:21)

Andrew, were you in the room?

Caroline Levitt (33:23)

No.

John (33:23)

You weren't?

Caroline Levitt (33:24)

I was in the room. I heard the conversation. And only someone like you would take that so seriously and pose it at a question that way.

John (33:32)

I mean, I think a lot of people take the President of the United States threatening to cancel elections pretty seriously, especially given he repeats it and has said it many times. Okay. Today, Levitt got the very first question of the briefing to none other than anti trans activist Riley Gaines in a room where every seat is coveted. The White House gave her two, and those are kind of special seats on the side where normally the staff sits, one for her and one for her husband. So we could show Levitt their baby. And everybody loves a baby. But again, it's a little absurd, this whole thing. There were some drill journalists, though, asking important questions in that room today, and Caroline Levitt, of course, did not answer them. So I'm gonna take a crack at a few of those. There were a lot of questions, of course, about ICE today, so I'm going to start with one of those. Nanzita Bose from Reuters. Go ahead. There have been multiple instances of American citizens being detained by ice, and I'm wondering what the administration is asking the agency to do. What steps is the administration asking the agency to take to ensure that Americans are not wrongly arrested? Nandita, I hate to break it to you, but the truth is that the Trump administration is doing nothing to prevent US Citizens from being detained by ice. In fact, today, the ACLU filed a class action lawsuit against the Trump administration, alleging that ICE isn't just detaining US Citizens, they are racially profiling. The lawsuit points to specific cases of multiple US Citizens who say they were unlawfully detained by ICE despite repeatedly stating that they were citizens. It's the same thing we've seen in city after city after city after ICE floods the streets. And the Trump administration seems completely fine with that. Now, today, there were also a lot of questions about the supposed health care plan that Trump unveiled. I've already talked about that a little bit, so I'm just gonna take a crack at one of those. MARY Bruce, ABC Go ahead. 20 million Americans in recent weeks have seen their health care costs soar. Can he assure them that if this plan is put in place, that they will be able to cover those costs? No, of course he can't. Because, Mary, this is the plan, the whole thing. One page of it is just Trump saying, the great healthcare plan. That's what they're calling it, as if that deems it true. I mean, that's it. This is the whole plan right here. The other page. Now, way back in Trump's 2016 campaign, he promised that he would repeal and replace Obamacare on day one. In 2020, he said that he would unveil his health care plan in two weeks. In a presidential debate with Kamala Harris in 2024, Trump said he had concepts of a plan. Now, today, Trump is claiming he has a framework of a plan. And this is it, this thing I just showed you. And if he really. The thing is, this is the sad thing. Many of it, much of it is sad. But if he really wanted to do something that could have an impact, he could work to extend the Obamacare subsidy premiums. Because right now, 1.4 million Americans have already dropped their health care plans because they can't afford it anymore. And that number is going to grow. Okay, final question. The other big topic of interest today at the press briefing, of course, was Venezuela, because today Trump met, as I talked about earlier, with Venezuelan opposition leader and Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Machado. Many believed she was at the White House to push President Trump to support a democratic process in Venezuela, which Trump has not prioritized so far at all. So the press naturally had lots of questions. Li Zhijiang, CBS News. Is it still the president's assessment that it would be very hard for Ms. Machado to leave Venezuela because he says she lacks the respect and support in that country? And will he raise that with her? Well, I'm not sure what he raised or what his assessment is, but, I mean, I think her chances of having Trump's support likely just got a heck of a lot better because, of course, today she gave Trump her Nobel Peace Prize. She gave him the literal medal. But a big question I have is whether Trump even has that power, given he's locked arms already with Delsey Rodriguez. One dictator for another right there. But luckily we have former Obama Deputy National Security Adviser Ben Rose joining us next to discuss that and much more. So stick with us. Donald Trump loves a good shiny prize, and it doesn't matter if he actually wins or not. Doesn't matter. I mean, this afternoon he snagged two championship rings from the NHL's Florida Panthers, gleefully posing with them for the cameras. And I hope they checked his pockets on the way out. Let's be real, because this guy is very eager to gobble up unearned prizes. Right now, he wants them. Today, Venezuelan opposition leader and Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Machado literally took her own medal to the White House and presented it to Trump. I presented the President of the United States the medal, the Nobel Peace Prize. Machado said that she gave it to him because of what he's doing for the people of Venezuela. But right now, everybody in Venezuela's dictatorship, other than Nicolas Maduro is still in place. All he's doing is really replacing one dictator who wasn't letting him take their oil with a knuck. Their dictator, who is probably more complicated than that, but that's part of it. Joining me now to unpack all of this craziness is Ben Rhodes, former deputy national Security adviser under President Barack Obama and my old, longtime friend. Okay, I've been thinking about you through the course of today and just this entire week, because, I mean. I mean, Marie Machado is a genuinely inspiring, tough, incredible figure who just gave Trump a trophy today to make him happy. I just wonder what you make of the entire scene that played out at the White House and really afterward today.

Ben Rhodes (39:17)

Well, I mean, Jen, I actually think it's just a really sad scene because Donald Trump has no interest whatsoever in democracy in Venezuela. He said as much. I mean, the pretext in the run up was drugs. Then as soon as Maduro was removed, it became clear it was all about oil. This is a person, Maria Machado, whose party won, by all independent observers accounts, a significant majority of the votes in the last election. And he says she has no respect in the country. He'd much rather deal with kind of an autocratic government as long as they give him the oil. And frankly, actually, Dulcie Rodriguez does not seem that inclined to even give him that oil. So we'll see how that goes. But I think, Jen, like, the main point I'd make here is Maria Machado. European leaders, law firms, universities. You bend the knee to Trump, and he treats you much worse than if you stand up to him. You know, and I actually, I feel for her because she's a courageous person. You know, politics, skewed, conservative, but she's, you know, inherently courageous. But this is not the right approach, frankly. We've seen that if you kind of bend the knee to Trump and, you know, flatter him, he kind of doesn't respect you, and he kind of comes back to take more away from you, including your dignity. And that's kind of what we saw today.

John (40:33)

Yeah, that's a good. It was sad to Watch it. Made me sad watching it, too, watching her do that press conference. It also seems like, I mean, it seems very clear she wants Trump's support for her leading Venezuela. But even if he were to do that, I mean, he seems pretty locked arms with Delsey Rodriguez right now, whether or not she gives him the oil. But that seems to be the case now. Even if he somehow changed course and embraced her, does he even have the power to put it. What power does he have to put her in charge? I mean, what impact would that even have?

Ben Rhodes (41:03)

He really doesn't. I mean, and this is what's clear, is that the Venezuelan military, the Venezuelan Interior Ministry, security services, they do not want to relinquish control. They want to hold on to their control of not just Venezuela's politics, but what remains of the Venezuelan economy, which is kind of a black market sanctions economy. And, and that's, I'm sure, the main reason why he didn't want to go through the trouble of trying to kind of push her into power there. Now, what he could do. And I think if you were, you know, if a normal administration was in power in this circumstance, I mean, they probably would not have removed Nicolas Maduro in the way that Trump did. But what you'd be doing is getting a whole bunch of other countries together from Latin America and around the world to say, there needs to be an election in Venezuela. There needs to be an election within the year or set whatever timeline. And we're going to do everything that we can to monitor that election. We have independent international monitors on the ground. And then the election becomes a vehicle for her to try to win power in Venezuela democratically. That would be kind of what you would expect in the circumstance. But he's been asked about an election. He says, well, maybe someday, because he doesn't care about that. He cares about the oil. And that's. He's made that clear again and again. He met Jen with a bunch of oil company executives before he met with Maria Machado. I mean, it tells you the whole. That gives up the whole game right away.

John (42:27)

It kind of tells you everything. There was another piece of reporting around all of this I had been dying to ask you about, because during the talks about the War Powers Resolution, which all went down yesterday, it feels like a year ago, but Secretary Rubio pledged no U.S. troops, troops in Venezuela. But then today there were reports about possible private troops in Venezuela. It feels a little bit like they're setting it up to be mercenaries, setting it up to be. I mean, I don't Blackwater, I don't like. Did you see that reporting? What did you make of it? Is that something that we should all be focused on and worried about and talking about?

Ben Rhodes (43:05)

Yes, I did see that. And you could see this coming million miles away. Erik Prince, right. Who is the guy that ran Blackwater, people may remember from back in the Iraq war years. He's popped up around the world. He's been doing some private security stuff in Ecuador. He's had designs on this for a long time. And look, if there are going to be American oil companies getting in there, and that's still a big if because those oil companies didn't seem that enthusiastic about it, you're going to have to secure the oil fields, you're going to have to secure the oil pipelines, you're going to have to secure the oil refineries. Donald Trump probably knows politically sending thousands, if not tens of thousands of American troops to secure a bunch of oil fields for American oil companies who are not even employing Americans, you're just kind of patting their own profits would not be a particularly popular thing to do. This could be a potential boondoggle for whether it's Erik Prince or whomever in this kind of private security world. I think. I mean, not to be too alarmist about this, Jen, though, but we spend a lot of time in the last few years talking about something called the Wagner Group, right, which is kind of Vladimir Putin, Russia's private mercenary force that went around Africa securing, guess what, raw materials, critical minerals, mines. Donald Trump building a series of private security forces to kind of enforce his imperial writ in the Western Hemisphere should be alarming to people because just as ice as this kind of militarized, unaccountable force in the US Is alarming, so is the potential corruption, the potential human rights abuses of having kind of this mercenary force it reports to Donald Trump outside the boundaries of the U.S. military in places like Venezuela. I think it's very alarming.

John (44:46)

We'll talk more about it, I'm sure. Ben Rhodes, thank you as always. I always learn from you. Thanks for being here. Coming up. Remember the Epstein files? We do. We'll be right back. A quick update. It has now been 27 days since Trump's DOJ first broke the law by failing to release all of the Epstein files. And it's been 23 days since they last released anything at all. As of today, they've released less than 1% of the files in their possession. Republican Congressman Thomas Massie put it this way today.

Angie Hicks (45:22)

Psst.

John (45:23)

Denmark, tell this administration the Epstein files are in Greenland. They'll lose all interest and will never be able to find it. Not a bad idea. That does it for me tonight. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNOW know. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok.

Angie Hicks (45:39)

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well, from roof repair to emergency plumbing and more done well. So the next time you have a home project, leave it to the pros. Get started at angie. Com.