Jen Psaki (2:47)

I mean, that guy was fiery. There was ominous music. He swore. I mean, there was a lot in that video. What happened to that guy? And of course, Democrats had every reason to feel like they were in a good position to keep up the fight. I mean, for a range of reasons. Polling just last week from NBC News found that voters blamed Trump and Republicans for the shutdown over Democrats by a 10 point margin. And that was before Democrats absolutely cleaned the clocks of Republicans all across the country last Tuesday, signaling that voters were behind their efforts to stand up to this administration. But after all that, after the party unity and the favorable polling and the massive election wins, the lesson that eight members of the Senate Democratic caucus that we know of took away was apparently this.

Nicole Wallace (3:36)

So standing up to Donald Trump didn't work.

Jen Psaki (3:39)

It actually gave him more power. Um, no, that's not the lesson. Agree to disagree there, I guess. Senator King, Yes, Donald Trump did use the shutdown as an excuse to shut off SNAP benefits for needy families. They have used. This administration has used every legal lever possible to prevent people who need help from getting access to food, which tells you a lot about them. The Trump administration did have the money in the contingency funds. They still do. And they'd been losing though the battle over these funds in court over and over again. That was an important sidebar of this. What was also happening at the same time. And yes, the shutdown had caused delays in flights that were affecting travelers across the country ahead of the Thanksgiving holiday. But that is precisely why Democrats had leverage, more leverage than they used here, especially leading up to a holiday when Republicans would feel a ton of pressure to get home and pressure from the people when they went home that they represent. The majority of voters rightfully blame those delays on Republicans, whose only excuse seemed to be that they didn't want to prevent health care premiums from doubling for tens of millions of people. Don't know what else their excuse was. The main thing this deal gets Democrats is a promise that the Senate will hold a vote on funding health care premiums sometime next month. And even if that does happen, and I'm a bit skeptical here, are they really going to get 60 votes in the Senate? That's what they need. And also, Mike Johnson won't even commit to holding a vote in the House. So that whole thing is not worth a Whole lot. Look, more than anything else, what this deal signaled to Trump is that he should keep asking for things and pushing for things. What it signaled to the American people is that a small but critical minority of Democrats. Democrats, the small but critical one, don't actually understand that we are not in the age of two parties negotiating rationally anymore, an age where everyone is working together to put out fires. We were once in that age. We are not there anymore because one party is, in fact, lighting the match, trying to burn the building down. And pretending we are in normal times doesn't change that. This is about more than the shutdown. And this is why so many people are mad, including in Washington, including the majority of Democrats in Washington, because it's about Democrats not fighting with one hand tied behind their backs simply for the sake of a talking point about bipartisanship. It's about recognizing that we are in a different moment right now. A different moment that is going to require a lot of different things. Probably some different candidates, some different tactics. More aggressive, more alpha, please. And probably different leaders. But here's the good news, and this is key. A growing number of Democrats inside Washington understand what this moment calls for. I wouldn't have said that necessarily in January. I would say that now. And more importantly, a growing force of people outside of Washington, because that is where change comes from. Understand what this moment calls for, which is why you saw Democratic candidates for Senate, across the ideological spectrum all come out and oppose this deal.

Sky Roberts (6:38)

I'm going back to Washington soon to.

Nicole Wallace (6:40)

Vote no on this continuing resolution deal.

Jen Psaki (6:42)

We gotta do things very differently. The old way of doing things is not working. We need new leaders in the Senate. You can't tell people that you're gonna be fighting for their healthcare and then just fold and say, well, Donald Trump promised us he would help us fix it later.

Sky Roberts (6:58)

My frustration is those who voted for it.

Jen Psaki (7:00)

It's not a long list, but I.

Nicole Wallace (7:02)

Also have a deep frustration with leadership.

Stephanie Ruhl (7:05)

I'm here as governor of the state.

Jen Psaki (7:07)

Of Maine fighting to expand health care, while those in Washington apparently are ignoring the need and simply going along with the flow and letting those tax credits expire again. All. All those people I just showed you are running to be members of the body that just voted to approve this deal. Some of them are running in primaries against each other, and they may have disagreements about all sorts of stuff. If you didn't see your favorite Senate candidate on that list, don't worry. Because as far as I can tell, as of now, not a single new Democratic candidate for Senate has come out in favor of this deal. The grassroots group Indivisible has taken things a step further, saying they will not endorse any candidate for Senate who does not call for new Democratic leadership in that body. This isn't, though, a story about Democratic infighting or division. We're talking about eight people here. It's really a story about the majority of people running for office and a majority of people who are a part of a movement in the country recognizing it is going to require something other than business as usual in Washington. The energy to stand up to Donald Trump outside of Washington has not waned. If anything, it's gotten stronger. I mean, just today we saw more protests against the Trump administration in Washington, D.C. and Chicago, this time from veterans groups marking the Veterans Day holiday. And at the same time, activists and Democratic state politicians ramping up the fight against Republican attempts to rig the 2026 congressional map. Today, Republicans lost a key court battle over redistricting in Utah. Bright red Utah, where lawmakers will now have to draw a new, solidly Democratic congressional seat in that state. Now hot off hit his state's redistricting victory last week. California Governor Gavin Newsom took the fight to Texas this weekend where he drew big crowds of voters energized by the fight in their state. In Virginia, last week's election victories have allowed Democrats to move ahead with their own bill to counter Republican redistricting in that state. Also last week, Kansas Republicans stood down on their efforts to force a vote on redistricting there. In Missouri, a citizen led effort to stop Republicans from redistricting is gaining steam. And in Ohio state, Democrats managed to limit the damage from Republican attempts to redraw the their maps. That's just some of the examples from across the country. And all of that momentum has put Democrats on track to hold their own in a fight where Republicans thought they had the upper hand. And that brings me to the most important thing to remember right now, because while all the Beltway media outlets are dusting off their old Democrats in disarray headlines, it's really just a way too easy, slightly lazy headline. I would note. The Republican Party is truly in shambles and they seem kind of oblivious or maybe just in some sort of a state of denial. I mean, things are downright crazy over there. The MAGA movement has been in a civil war over one of their biggest media stars embracing an overt white supremacist and anti Semite. That fight has now torn apart one of the right's most influential think tanks. After the president of the Heritage foundation first defended the decision to engage with known white supremacists and then attempted to walk it back. I mean, it says a lot that one employee felt it necessary to publicly remind Heritage leadership that, quote, nazis are bad. But that's apparently what it's come to. Also, with the shutdown over, Republicans in Washington are about to be thrust right back into their civil war over child sex predator and longtime Trump friend Jeffrey Epstein. Mike Johnson is now pretty much, I think we'll see, out of excuses. And he's expected to swear in Democratic representative elect Adelita Grijalva tomorrow, giving Democrats the final signature they need to force a vote on releasing the Epstein files. And that comes just as we are learning that Epstein co conspirator and convicted sex predator Ghislaine Maxwell has been receiving concierge style treatment at her new minimum security prison camp. MSNBC reports that Maxwell is even receiving help from the prison warden with her application to have Trump commute her sentence. All of which puts Trump and his party in a pretty awkward, divided, disarray like position. After all, his administration approved Maxwell's transfer to her cushy new digs. And now even the editorial board of Murdoch owned New York. The Murdoch New York Post is demanding Trump end her luxury prison staycation. All this infighting is happening as Republicans continue to reel from their big election losses last week. An election that showed voters don't think Trump is delivering on any of his key election promises. They're in the doldrums and desperately searching for a way out. Just because a few Democrats voted to end the shutdown. And I shared what I thought of that. But that doesn't mean this administration has suddenly found its footing. It does not negate the enormous winds of last week across the country or the energy of the millions of people who have showed up at no Kings protests and other protests across the country. Trump and his party are still facing the same political headaches they were a week ago. The question now is how do the people standing up to him keep the energy focused on that? And I have just the person to ask. Stephanie Shaheen is a Democrat running for Congress to keep up the fight on things like affordable health care, even if it means publicly breaking with her own mom to do it. Stephanie Shaheen joins me for her first national TV interview since coming out against that deal in just 90 seconds.

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Show Narrator (13:36)

The connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other to have a conversation that has never happened before. But on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.

Nicole Wallace (13:58)

Deadline White HOUSE with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC.

Jen Psaki (14:15)

It is rare to see a mother and daughter both seek out political careers in Congress. That's pretty unique, pretty cool. But what is basically unheard of is what we saw from a mother daughter duo like that this week. New Hampshire Democratic Senator Jeanne Shaheen is one of the eight senators who voted with Republicans on a shutdown deal that doesn't guarantee protections for health care subsidies. And she's come under a lot of fire for it. Her daughter, Stephanie Shaheen, is a Democrat currently running for Congress, and she has made it clear she does not think the deal her mom voted for is the right approach. And New Hampshire congressional candidate Stephanie Sheheen joins me now. It's great to see you. Obviously, let me start by asking you this. I mean, you knew the public disagreement with your mom would be a story, but you felt strongly enough to go ahead with announcing your opposition anyway, Tell us why.

Stephanie Shaheen (15:03)

Sure. Well, thank you so much for having me tonight, Jen. I think, you know, the fact of the matter is improving healthcare has been the cause of my life. It became the cause of my life when my eldest daughter, Ellie, was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes shortly after her eighth birthday. So I know what it's like to be fighting the insurance companies to get the care she needs that her doctors say she needs. I understand what it's like to worry about being denied access to health insurance. That's what compelled me to get into this race. And so when Speaker Johnson said he wouldn't ensure that there would be a vote to extend the Affordable Care act tax credits, I knew this is a deal I could not support.

Jen Psaki (15:41)

You've been out there on the campaign trail. I'm sure you've answered more questions about what your Thanksgiving dinner is going to be like with your family than you would care to. But tell me about what people are saying about this deal and how they feel about what just happened in Washington.

Stephanie Shaheen (15:59)

Well, you know, I'm hearing from folks who are very worried. They're angry. And I would say at this moment that I am really focused right now on channeling this anger into action. We have six weeks to demand that Speaker Johnson have a vote on the Affordable Care act and extending these tax credits. I think we need to call on him to do that. It's unconscionable to me that members of Congress have not been at work for seven weeks, weeks while the government is shut down. And it's time to get people back to work and to negotiate to bring these tax credit extensions forward because people cannot afford what's about to happen with these healthcare premiums. Just look, in New Hampshire, an average family of four is likely to see $7,000 increase in their health insurance premiums next year. That's unsustainable for far too many people, and it's going to risk people being able to have health care at all.

Jen Psaki (16:53)

I'm a big believer that activism matters. Obviously, you are, too. You wouldn't be running for office if you didn't believe that. Do you really think there's a possibility that Republicans could push Speaker Johnson to bring a vote on the Obamacare premiums before the end of the year?

Stephanie Shaheen (17:08)

Look, I'm in this fight for that reason because I believe we can make government work for people. And I think we need to channel this anger into action. We need to get everybody motivated, mobilized, and ready to go to make sure that Speaker Johnson brings this vote to the floor of the House before the end of the year so that these tax credits can go into effect. You know, the fact is, it's really curious to me how it's so easy for the Republicans to extend the tax breaks to their billionaire friends, but they can't find it in themselves to extend tax credits for health care for millions of Americans. It's unacceptable, and we need to demand that they do better.

Jen Psaki (17:46)

One of the questions that this is all raised is whether there's the right leadership in Washington right now and a growing list of House Democrats and candidates and grassroots groups are calling for Chuck Schumer to step down as Senate Democratic leader. What do you think he should do?

Stephanie Shaheen (18:01)

I think what people want right now is a fighter. They want people who are prepared to stand up and fight. That's why I got into this race. You know, when you have to stare in the face of your own child's mortality as often as I have had to, sadly, over the last 18 years since she was diagnosed, you know what real fear feels like when you're worried about whether you can get the care your child needs, you know what that fear feels like. We got to bring this anger and energy to Washington. We need people who are willing to fight. I'm that fighter in this race. You know, this is a really tough race. As many people will know, this district is one of the swingiest in the country. Donald Trump knows that. He's already targeted this as a redistricting potential pickup. And we're working hard to fight against that. And it's going to take people mobilized and ready to work hard between now and January on health care. And then that's just the beginning of the fight. We got to keep it up through these midterm elections.

Jen Psaki (19:00)

I have no doubt it's going to be a big issue next year. Will continue to be. Let me ask you about something I didn't hear you say. Whether Schumer or not would be somebody you think should stay in. You can tell me the answer to that if you want. But let me ask you about something you will actually have to potentially vote on. I mean, House Speaker Jeffries or. He's not the speaker yet. House Majority Minority Leader Jeffries says he's backing Schumer despite all the backlash over the Senate deal. You're running in a tough primary. If you were elected and Democrats win back the House next year, would you back him for Speaker?

Stephanie Shaheen (19:32)

Look, we've got a long way to go. I think ultimately I'm supportive of Speaker Jeff. Minority leaders Jeffries. But we got to see how these elections play out and who gets elected. We have to do everything in our power to win the majority. The fact is, in order to make a change and to have more leverage in these fights, we have to win the majority. We have to win the U.S. house. That's why I got into this race to fight on behalf of the American people as it relates to making health care more affordable and accessible. But the best way we can do that is to have a majority, and that's why we've got to defend this seat. And make sure we elect a Democrat to do that.

Jen Psaki (20:12)

Stephanie Shaheen, one of the reasons I was so eager to talk to you is I think people are angry right now. They're figuring out the path forward. And if you and your mom can be on different sides of this and move forward, which you clearly are, I think that speaks to something out there. So thank you so much for being here with me tonight.

Stephanie Shaheen (20:29)

Well, thank you, Jen. And I will just say to anyone who wants to be in this fight with us, please check out our campaign. Stephanie Sheaheen.com and I will say the fight has just begun. We've got a lot of work to do. Let's channel this anger into action and demand a vote.

Jen Psaki (20:43)

Thank you so much for being here.

Stephanie Shaheen (20:45)

Thank you Jen. Great to see you.

Jen Psaki (20:47)

You too. Okay, coming up, the bad news is Ghislaine Maxwell is getting shockingly preferential treatment in prison. It's completely sick. The good news is the House is about to finally take a huge step toward forcing the release of the Epstein files. It feels like it's been a very long time on this discharge petition. Sky and Amanda Roberts are the family members of Epstein survivor Virginia Giuffre. They've been fighting for justice tirelessly in her memory and they Join me next.

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Show Narrator (22:05)

The connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other. To have a conversation that has never happened before. But on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.

Nicole Wallace (22:26)

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Jen Psaki (23:09)

Today we had a bit of good news. We learned that Speaker Mike Johnson will finally swear an Arizona Congresswoman elect Adelita Grijalva Tomorrow at 4pm Putting the petition to force a vote on the Epstein files over the line and starting the clock on a full vote in the House. And let's just say the events of the past 24 hours have only reinforced the need for more transparency around Epstein. I mean, just yesterday House Democrats revealed that a whistleblower came forward to warn that Ghislaine Maxwell is trying to be next on the President's commutation list. Jamie Raskin, the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, outlined the revelations in a letter to the White House saying Maxwell is working on filing a quote commutation application. Raskin said the whistleblower also revealed the warden of the prison Maxwell has been transferred to has quote, heaped favorable concierge style treatment on Ms. Maxwell, including instructing an inmate training puppies as service dogs to provide one to Maxwell for a time so she could play with the puppy. Not making this up. In one letter the whistleblower turned over that was obtained by NBC News, Maxwell wrote to a relative, I feel like I have dropped through Alice in Wonderland's Looking Glass. I am much, much happier here and more importantly, safe. Well, thank God for that. Now, as you'd expect, this has enraged survivors of Maxwell's abuse. I mean, it should erase all of us. Four family members of Virginia Roberts Giuffre, a survivor who died earlier this year, released a statement in response saying in part, we too feel we are living in the parallel world of Alice's Looking Glass, one in which survivors of Maxwell's violence, rape and trafficking of children, as well as their families and loved ones, are overlooked by the very people we elected to help us. Joining us now are sky and Amanda Roberts, the brother and sister in law of Virginia Roberts Giuffre. Thank you both so much for being here. I'm always so inspired when I talk to you and it's so important for people to to hear your voices. Sky, let me start with you. This is there's I just want to start by asking really, about these leaked emails from Ghislaine Maxwell. It is so enraging. It should be enraging to everybody. I read part of that powerful statement that you released, and it struck me. It was a really strong and firm statement. I think you wanted to send a very clear message. But since you're here with me, share with us what your reaction was when you saw those leaked emails. I'm.

Sky Roberts (25:35)

I'm smiling because I'm enraged by it. It's, it's, it's crazy that we're even listening to somebody that's a convicted sex trafficking offender of minors. I. The fact that she's being served Chef Boyardee at, you know, in her prison cell, which is a dorm room dormitory at this point is outraging. She's playing with puppies. And the biggest decision she has to make between her day is do I play golf or yoga? You know, and, and we're over here trying to struggle forward. How are we going to pay our bills as American citizens? And so it's outraging. I mean, she shouldn't be in there to begin with. She should be transferred back to a maximum security prison immediately. But I think our initial reaction was just. We were outraged by it. I think survivors deserve so much more. My sister would be just flabbergasted by the fact that she is even getting this attention to begin with.

Jen Psaki (26:40)

Everyone should be, who's a human, who has a soul should be flabbergasted and outraged. I mean, Amanda, you both have been through so much. I just think reading about this concierge style treatment, getting to play with puppies, enjoying other luxuries like customized meals. I mean, you're very. Both very clear eyed about this too. I mean, do you hope this shakes people awake about this whole situation and the treatment, the preferential treatment of Ghislaine Maxwell.

Amanda Roberts (27:10)

It'S shocking.

Nicole Wallace (27:12)

It is.

Amanda Roberts (27:13)

It's sickening. It literally makes my stomach turn just thinking that she has any joy or that she has any relief. What about the survivors who are still living with the trauma that she caused? I mean, let's make it very clear. Our sister was so clear. And if you've read her book, she describes Ghislaine Maxwell as an apex predator. This woman masterfully manipulated her position, her womanhood to abuse these young girls. So it just makes my stomach turn. And then it enrages me because this is what our tax dollars are funding. Her safety, her. Her comfort. That is what we are funding right now. And we should all be enraged by that. Again, we weren't even given the reason why she was moved there in the first place. She what did she give that even allowed that to happen? And so I think we really are seeing with our very own eyes this cover up. And what a contrast to what's going on in the uk how Prince Charles can actually strip his brother of his prince title and our own president won't even rule out a pardon or commutation for a convicted sex trafficker. That is shameful. And we are far behind right now on action.

Jen Psaki (28:40)

That's such a good example to note because Trump again could just release these files. This is something he could do. It could happen tomorrow. You know, this has been such a long journey for you. And tomorrow. I don't want to overstate the importance of this, but Speaker Johnson is going to reportedly swear in Congresswoman elect Adelita Grijalva finally tomorrow. She's the 218th vote on the discharge petition. I know the last time we spoke, it struck me, sky, because what both of you said. But sky, you talked about the human side of this and how people don't always understand the human side of this and the importance for survivors of this information getting out there. Now this is back in the news. Fortunately, you're back here. What should Republican members out there know who have not pledged their support to this discharge petition about how important it is for survivors and survivors, families like both of you for this to move forward?

Sky Roberts (29:41)

Yeah, I love that question. Because the truth is, this has never been a party issue at all. Never was. And I don't think it ever will be. I think this is a human issue. And I just, I furthermore question, like, if you're a Republican, I mean, every Democrat has supported this, the Epstein Files Transparency act at this point that, you know, this is, this is going to go through one way or the other. How can you stand on one side of the table and look your daughters in the eyes and your sisters in the eyes and say, I really support survivors? I mean, there's a lot of talk, Jen. There's a lot, I've heard a lot of talk. I've heard a lot of people saying, oh, I care, I absolutely support survivors. Well, then my question to you is, Mr. Republican, or whoever you are, is what are you doing about it? You're not doing anything about it. The truth is, is that you're saying a lot of things, but you're not doing a lot of things. So as a survivor family, as the brother of the most prominent survivor of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, I don't hear you. I don't feel you. Your words mean nothing to me unless you have actions. And I guarantee those words mean nothing to the survivors as well unless you do something about it. And the way you do something about it is to vote yes on the Epstein Files Transparency Act. It's vote. It is supported by the committee, it's supported by survivors and the lawyers and by us. Why aren't you doing something about it? I'm just tired of your words. I just want to see action. I think that's how we feel these.

Jen Psaki (31:16)

Days that's so important. I mean, people who are in Congress, they can vote, they can advocate for things, they have platforms. This is. And it's not just words. It is actions. Amanda, let me ask you, have you heard anything? Because I know, of course there's reports about the speaker getting swearing in at Aleta Grijalva tomorrow, but then they have to actually be in session for it to move forward. Have you heard anything from members or the committees you're in touch with about. About what's next or what you guys should be expecting next?

Amanda Roberts (31:48)

I think it's been such a long, tough road. I think it is the first step to get Adelita Grijalva in sworn in. We haven't heard anything about an official date of them being in actual session, but they are determined, the House committee is very determined to investigate and to continue forward with survivors that it is survivor based. And so we are looking forward to working with the House committee and any representative, to be honest, to really sit with them and give testimony. We've reached out to our very own representative here, Jeff Crank, and we still have yet to hear from him. And so these are the things that we keep hitting these walls. These are our representatives and we as your constituents are calling on you. We want to speak. Speak to you. We want to hear you and we want to know that you stand for us. And we're willing to sit with any single representative, any Republican who is still trying to decide what to do. Hear from, hear real testimony, hear from us, listen to us. And we will tell you why you need to vote yes because maybe that's what it's going to take. And maybe we all do need to sit in a room and stand on the floor and share that testimony in a very raw and real way for people to be moved. And if that's what it's going to take, then we're willing to do that. But don't make us do that if you're not going to stand by us.

Jen Psaki (33:17)

Sky And Amanda Roberts, I don't know how anybody could sit in a room with the two of you or just listen to you talk and not be incredibly moved. Thank you for being here and for being so tireless in your advocacy. There's so many survivors out there who I know are grateful to you. Thank you again. Thank you.

Sky Roberts (33:34)

Thank you, Jen.

Jen Psaki (33:35)

Okay, Coming up, Senate Republicans just snuck a wild provision into the shutdown deal. It involves rigging the legal system. I wish this was not an evergreen thing we talked about all the time. It also involves a shocking level of corruption and your tax dollars. I'm going to explain when we come back. As the spending bill to end the government shutdown moves to the House, we now know that Senate Republicans tucked in a provision that could potentially allow them to benefit financially from one of their favorite conspiracy theories. Now, you may remember early last month, some Republicans in the Senate nearly lost their minds after Chuck Grassley, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, the young man that he is, released this one page unclassified document that references a preliminary toll analysis conducted by the FBI in 2023 of at least nine Trump allied Republican lawmakers. Now, according to the press release, that analysis was phone data the FBI looked at from January 4th through January 7th of 2021, which is, of course, the days surrounding the attack on the Capitol on January 6th. And despite their conspiracy theorizing, all that data showed when calls were made and to whom. That's all it showed, as well as the duration and the general location data of a call. That's it. This information was then folded into Special counsel Jack Smith's criminal investigation into Donald Trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election. Republicans quickly claimed that this all was evidence of something worse than Watergate, is what they said, if you couldn't believe it. And in a hearing that following that document's release, Republican members rally railed against what they they're shorthanded as spying.

Nicole Wallace (35:26)

This is an outrage, an unconstitutional breach and ought to be immediately addressed.

Jen Psaki (35:34)

Can you tell me why my phone records, when I'm the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, were sought by the Jack Smith agents?

Nicole Wallace (35:44)

We've got a list. Tap my phone. Tap Lindsey Graham's phone. Tap Marsha Blackburn's phone. We've got nothing but concerns today, but no concern at all for a Justice Department that is tapping the phones of sitting United States Senators. Because who knows why.

Jen Psaki (36:05)

Now, that was quite a performance by that crew. Bravo to you, Josh Hawley and Lindsey Graham. The Oscar goes, too. I mean, the thing is, this document isn't the revelation they say it is at all. For one, nobody's phone was tapped, as Josh Hawley repeatedly claimed. After getting proper approval from a grand jury, the FBI collected essentially phone logs. And the existence of these logs haven't been hidden at all. If Republicans had managed to have actually read volume one of Jack Smith's report, which maybe they should have, given they're so concerned they would have seen that it references some of the calls, complete with a footnote that cites the phone records for all to see. That's also not to mention that if Jack Smith was serious about investigating the pressure campaign Trump and his alleged co conspirators were waging to overturn the election, it would obviously make sense he would look at who was talking to whom and when. Because let's be honest, these lawmakers weren't exactly picked out of thin air. Even before Jack Smith took over this case, there were plenty of reports about the contact these exact lawmakers had made with Trump and his allies during this period of time. But despite all of that, they are still very, very mad about Jack Smith's very, very legitimate investigation. And now they've apparently added into the spending bill a new legal pathway that allows for senators to sue for as much as half a million dollars for each time a federal investigator searches their phone records without notifying them. And would you look at that? The provision is retroactive to 2022, meaning the senators who had enough of a proximity to Trump and the events of January 6th to warrant having their phone records requested, are putting themselves in a position with the help of their colleagues to potentially make money off of that fact. Just when you thought they couldn't get shadier, they seem to surprise you. Coming up, a new Trump economic plan that is so bad even the MAGA base isn't buying it. My colleague Stephanie Ruhl will join me to do the math and more next. Right now we know that Donald Trump is going to try to pull any rabbit out of a hat to at least pretend like he is trying to lower costs for the American people. We also know that the key to Donald Trump's heart is through flattery. Preferably flattery that is easy to read, has lots of pictures, and maybe even includes some gold accents if you're like really trying hard. Well, this weekend, Federal Housing Finance Agency Director Bill Pulte pulled up to Mar a Lago with a piece of poster board and a dream to sell Trump the idea of the federal government backing a 50 year fixed rate mortgage. Now, the poster board was titled Great American Presidents with a photo of FDR below the headline 30 Year Mortgage and a photo of Trump below the headline 50 Year Mortgage. See? Nice and simple. He even has a gold bar at the top. He did the extra work. We know what it looks like because just 10 minutes later, Trump was apparently sold on the idea and posted it on Truth Social. I mean, if it gets him in the Great American President's board, why not now? White House officials were reportedly completely blindsided by the idea. No policy meetings on this one. And it quickly drew black backlash from every corner of MAGA world. That's because even by Trump's standards of funny math, and he's got a lot of it, there's no way around how bad of a policy this idea is. Here's his defense on Fox News yesterday. Your housing director has proposed something that has enraged your MAGA friends, which is this 50 year mortgage idea. So a significant MAGA backlash, calling it a giveaway to the banks and simply prolonging the time it would take for Americans to own a home outright. Is that really a good idea?

Nicole Wallace (40:02)

It's not even a big deal.

Jen Psaki (40:06)

I think it is. Joining me now is my colleague Stephanie Rule, host of the eleventh hour and an expert on many, many things, including all things money. Stephanie, what a delight to end my show today with a nerding out with you. Thank you for being here. Okay, so let's just start. I mean, Trump said the 50 year mortgage deal is not even a big deal.

Stephanie Ruhl (40:29)

He said it was a game changer after. He said it was a, before the backlash. It was a game changer after the backlash. No big deal.

Jen Psaki (40:36)

All of the things. I mean, there's lots of backlash here happening. I mean, we all know you don't even have to be an expert like you on all these things to know that about the cost of interest rates. So break down what this would actually look like in practice, this 50 year mortgage.

Stephanie Shaheen (40:50)

Okay?

Stephanie Ruhl (40:51)

So on its face, it would lower your monthly payments. And we know for a lot of people they're like, great, if it's, you know, $200 less a month, I'm in. However, because it's 30 years, not 50. It's 50 years, not 30 years. You would be paying for another 20 years. Most likely your interest payments could be almost double. The banks would charge you more to finance it because it's going to take that much longer to pay the thing off. And just think about this right now. The average age for a first time home buyer is 40 years old, the oldest it's ever been. Which means you will be 90 by the time you pay this thing off. And the average life expectancy of an American is 79 years old. So think about the crisis that will come down the line when family members inherit their parents homes and then they still have a big mortgage to pay off. And I want you to think about this. So suddenly monthly costs are lower. You may have a flood of people stepping in to buy homes. But the other problem with housing is we don't have enough supply. So now more buyers are coming in the market. There is no new supply. And guess what? Building houses cost more these days. Do you know why? Because of the tariffs. Because lumber, because labor, because materials are all costing more. So that's why you saw this big backlash and the backlash from MAGA said this is bad politics and it's bad policy.

Jen Psaki (42:17)

It's both. It's remarkably both. I mean, it seems like it was a bridge, as you said, even for MAGA folks. Obviously a lot of people in the business, I mean, this is a kind of a giveaway to banks in many ways. This is part of the argument here. Why do you think it was a bridge too far for even all of them?

Stephanie Ruhl (42:35)

Well, because, listen, they're all realizing as well as the president, what was the last election? First of all, what was Trump's 2016 election about? Affordability. What was Joe Biden's win about? We were coming out of COVID in a financial almost depression. It was about affordability. And what was Trump's win this time about? People were unhappy with inflation. They voted for Donald Trump, then they just voted for Democrats a week ago. Affordability is the whole ball game. And the president just a week ago said he's sick and tired of hearing about that. For Bill Pulte to come in to see the President at Mar A Lago over the weekend and suddenly say, I've got a plan. Other members of the White House are saying this isn't how the system operates. And now you've got the Treasury Secretary having to go on TV all weekend unprepared to defend this because again, bad politics and bad policy.

Jen Psaki (43:25)

Yeah. I mean, when you've lost the rest of the Cabinet, you know it's bad. Okay. This is not his only bad math. I mean, you talk about all these things. He's also promising $2,000 checks to Americans, again, supposedly paid for by tax revenue. Tell me about the math on this one.

Stephanie Ruhl (43:43)

This one is a biggie. But what it does tell you that's really important is that he knows, you know, what matters to the American people. Not Cultural issues, not foreign policy money. Because one of his big wins when he was the president the last time politically was sending those checks, those stimulus checks out to the American people while we were dealing with COVID with his name on it. That gained him a lot of political points. He would like to get those points again. But this idea that suddenly we're going to be writing checks for $2,000 to the American people, it doesn't add up. Right. It would cost $600 billion for every person to get a check. That much. Even if we get all the money we're expecting from the tariffs, it would be half of that. And the president has been giving out the tariff money like it's his job. Right. He already said, oh, all the money we're bringing in for the tariffs, we're going to pay down the debt. $37 trillion. We can't do that. We can't do. And not to mention, the Supreme Court is now making a decision whether or not these tariffs are even lawful. And if they're not, he's going to have a very difficult time paying back the billions of dollars to American companies. Plus, now this $2,000 check to people across the nation. Again, the math doesn't add up. It shows that the president realizes the economy, economics are a vulnerability for him and he's looking for a political win. But when he looks in that piggy bank, the money's just not there.

Jen Psaki (45:08)

Not a mathematician that Donald Trump. Stephanie Ruhl will be watching your show. It starts in an hour and four minutes. Thank you so much for joining us a little early tonight.

Stephanie Ruhl (45:17)

Thank you.

Jen Psaki (45:18)

I've got one more thing to tell you about before we go tonight. We'll be right back. Okay. A new episode of my podcast, the Blueprint Drops. Tomorrow, my guest is rising Democratic star Florida Congressman Maxwell Frost. We're going to talk about mobilizing the youth vote and how to keep the current momentum on the Democratic side going. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok.

Nicole Wallace (45:52)

Change is coming to this network, but we're still going to be having conversations about the issues that define us as a country. The only thing changing is our name. Same mission, new name. MSNBC becomes Ms. Now. November 15th.