Trump chief of staff makes disastrous miscalculation in talks with reporter

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode Title: Trump chief of staff makes disastrous miscalculation in talks with reporter
Air Date: December 17, 2025
Host: Jen Psaki
Featured Guests: Dan Pfeiffer, Rep. Robert Garcia (CA), Rep. Adam Smith (WA), Rep. Brendan Boyle (PA)

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Overview

This explosive episode dives into the fallout surrounding a revelatory Vanity Fair interview with Suzie Wiles, Donald Trump’s current White House Chief of Staff. Jen Psaki and her expert guests break down how Wiles’ candid—often damning—remarks pulled back the curtain on dysfunction, lack of leadership, and alarming policies within the Trump administration. The episode further examines the administration’s handling of the Epstein scandal, unapproved military action in Venezuela, and looming health care crises, culminating in sharp, informed political critique.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

[01:00] The Vanity Fair Bombshell: Suzie Wiles’ Disastrous Interview

• Washington Tradition & Bad Advice:
  Jen outlines the tradition of veteran chiefs of staff advising their successors. Reince Priebus' advice to Wiles: "Don't talk to Whipple" (the esteemed journalist Chris Whipple), was ignored, resulting in unprecedented access.
• Wiles’ Shocking Remarks (Vanity Fair Interview):
  • About colleagues:
    • JD Vance, VP: “A conspiracy theorist for a decade.”
    • Russ Vought, Budget Director: “A right-wing, absolute zealot.”
    • Elon Musk, advisor: “An avowed ketamine user who sleeps in a sleeping bag in the executive office building during the daytime.”
  • About Trump: “A man with an alcoholic’s personality ... operates with the view that there’s nothing he can’t do.”
  • On her role: Wiles repeatedly presents herself as an observer or enabler, not a guide or check on the president’s impulses.
• Damage Control Fails:
  Wiles denounces the Vanity Fair piece as a “disingenuously framed hit piece,” but does not deny the vast majority of the quotations—except Musk’s ketamine use, which Whipple tape-proves (Jen Psaki: "There’s almost always a tape.” [08:36]).
• Key Quote:
  • “Every word is on tape.” — Chris Whipple [08:57], per Jen Psaki.
• Implication:
  Wiles’ approach reflects and reinforces Trump’s unrestrained, chaotic leadership style; she offers little oversight or fact-checking.

[11:55] Analysis with Dan Pfeiffer (Pod Save America co-host, fmr. Obama Comms Director)

• Disbelief on Incompetence:
  • “Just absolute rank incompetence and hubris… to do 11 on-the-record interviews with Chris Whipple… as if he was a confidant or therapist.” [12:48]
• Insights on White House Dysfunction:
  • Wiles is not “the adult in the room.” She is “perceived as the adult in the room and does not seem particularly at all competent at doing the job.” [13:56]
  • Power vacuum: If she doesn’t know the plan, “who does?” Answer: “No one.” [15:36]
  • “The reason they all love her is the reason my kids prefer their grandparents to watch them, which is they can do whatever they want… There are no rules.” [16:00]
• On Trump’s Response:
  • The loyalty shown to Wiles in public is likely fleeting: “It’s like when Michael Corleone gave Fredo the kiss in Godfather 2. It’s the last thing before the person goes.” [14:33]

[20:48] The Epstein Files and DOJ Scandal with Rep. Robert Garcia (CA)

• Wiles' Admissions:
  • Confirms Trump is named in the upcoming Epstein files but claims “he’s not in the file doing anything awful.”
  • Admits Trump was on Epstein’s plane and that he and Epstein were “young, single playboys together.”
• Suspicious DOJ Moves:
  • Trump’s former defense lawyer Todd Blanche met with Ghislaine Maxwell in prison before her transfer to a minimum-security Texas facility with “special accommodations.”
  • Wiles and Trump allegedly “had no idea” why Maxwell was transferred, an implausible claim.
  • Garcia: “I find it hard to believe… The American public and Congress wants to know who actually asked for the transfer of Ghislaine Maxwell to the other facility.” [23:06]
• Clinton Accusations Undercut:
  • Wiles contradicts Trump’s claims about Bill Clinton’s visits to Epstein’s island, denying any Secret Service evidence exists.
  • Garcia: “We should be focused on Ghislaine Maxwell... Those folks Republicans seem to have little interest in actually talking to.” [26:18]
• Expectation for Epstein Files:
  • Garcia is skeptical about a full, transparent release: “I don’t expect that we’re going to get all of the files released to the public and that the truth is going to come out.” [27:01]

[30:02] Venezuela, Military Escalation, and Congressional Oversight with Rep. Adam Smith (WA)

• Major Announcements & Escalation:
  • Trump declares Venezuela “completely surrounded” by a US naval blockade (an act of war) without congressional approval.
  • U.S. military's recent boat strikes killed at least 95 people since September; Congress left “in the dark.”
  • Classified briefings offer “no meaningful insight” or clarity.
  • Adam Smith: “The entire operation is outside of the law and a massive expansion of President Trump’s powers.” [32:50]
• Dubious Legal Justifications:
  • Administration claims are based on counter-narcotics, but Smith says, “This seems to be about Trump asserting power as president beyond the law... and asserting his desire to dominate the Western Hemisphere.” [33:15]
• On Regime Change:
  • Susie Wiles told Whipple: Trump “wants to keep on blowing up boats up until Maduro cries uncle.”
  • Smith: Administration is “dragging us into a war with Venezuela” under the pretense of stopping drugs; “it is a troubling expansion of the power of the president, contrary to the Constitution.” [34:56–36:48]
• Next Steps:
  • Smith calls for public and congressional pushback: “We got to call him on that, and we got to build opposition to that policy because it’s a bad policy for all the reasons we’ve talked about.” [36:55]

[40:02] Looming Healthcare Crisis with Rep. Brendan Boyle (PA)

• ACA Subsidy Cliff:
  • 15 million Americans set to lose health coverage due to the GOP tax bill’s cuts, effective January 1.
  • House Republicans block votes on subsidy extension, pushing their own “plans” that CBO says will actually increase the uninsured by 100,000 annually.
  • “Original sin here is the Republican tax bill this summer… throws 15 million Americans off their health care in order to pay for tax breaks for billionaires.” — Boyle [40:15]
• Democratic Fix Blocked:
  • Democratic discharge petition for a “clean extension” has support of all Democrats; needs four GOP signatures, but has zero.
  • Boyle: “All House Democrats agree… Not one Republican is signed on to this discharge petition.” [42:12]
• Immediate Health Cost Impact:
  • Pennsylvania: “Average increase on our state exchange, 102%... overnight their monthly premium is doubling.” — Boyle [43:49]
• Political Consequences:
  • Psaki: “It is politically right, including as well as morally right.” [44:48]
  • Boyle: “There is a reason why Democrats continue to overperform in every special election this year by an average of 14 points.” [44:55]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jen Psaki [08:36]: “There’s almost always a tape. That’s the thing.”
• Chris Whipple (via Psaki) [08:57]: “Every word is on tape.”
• Dan Pfeiffer [12:48]: “Just absolute rank incompetence and hubris—from Susie Wiles to do 11 on-the-record interviews with Chris Whipple, to not seem to know whether she was on the record or not, to treat… this author as something between a confidant and a therapist…”
• Dan Pfeiffer [14:33]: “Like when Michael Corleone gave Fredo the kiss in Godfather 2… the last thing before the person goes.”
• Rep. Robert Garcia [23:06]: “What Todd Blanche did in moving a monster, a sexual trafficker, an abuser of women, to this essentially minimum secure facility… Now what I’d like to know… is Susie Wiles going to actually respond and answer the question who actually asks for the transfer of Ghislaine Maxwell?”
• Rep. Adam Smith [32:50]: “The entire operation is outside of the law and a massive expansion of President Trump’s powers.”
• Rep. Brendan Boyle [40:15]: “The original sin here is the Republican tax bill this summer. That bill essentially throws 15 million Americans off their health care in order to pay for tax breaks for billionaires.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:00–11:50: Jen Psaki’s monologue and breakdown of the Wiles/Whipple Vanity Fair interview
• 12:38–18:07: Analysis with Dan Pfeiffer
• 20:48–27:56: Epstein/Maxwell scandal and oversight discussion with Rep. Robert Garcia
• 30:02–37:43: Venezuela military escalation with Rep. Adam Smith
• 40:02–45:02: Health care crisis and legislative battle with Rep. Brendan Boyle

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Tone & Delivery

Jen Psaki’s approach is direct, sharply critical, and often laced with a knowing, sometimes incredulous humor—especially when confronting hypocrisy or dysfunction. Her guests match this analytical, “WTF is going on” tone, with a keen focus on accountability and broader political implications.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode exposes the chaos and enabling at the heart of Trump’s White House through jaw-dropping leaks and candid interviews. It explores how that dysfunction radiates out—whether through opaque international aggression, politically motivated justice maneuvers, or neglect of basic health care. Psaki and her guests argue persuasively that the administration’s lack of oversight, accountability, and planning is not only dangerous but increasingly visible to the public and political system alike.

Transcript

[Jen Psaki]

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[Jen Psaki]

Today was quite a day. There is so much to talk about. Let me start with this. There is a little known tradition in Washington. Whenever a new administration takes office, the new President's incoming chief of staff has dinner with all the previous chiefs of staff, usually one of them hosted at their house or at a restaurant or whatever it may be. And chiefs of staff from both parties attend. And they all do this so that they can offer advice to the new incoming chief of staff on how to prepare for the role. It's kind of a nice tradition through multiple different administrations of both parties. And when Trump won the election last year, his new chief of staff, Suzie Wiles, reportedly attended one of those dinners too. They each went around the table giving her tips, as they normally do for how to do the job. And when they got to Trump's first chief of staff, Reince Priebus, he had just one piece of advice for Susie Wiles. Just one. He told her, quote, don't talk to Whipple. If it could be any more clear than that. That is very clear. Now, Whipple in this case meant Chris Whipple, the veteran journalist who has profiled just about every White House chief of staff in the modern era and also wrote a bestselling book about White House chiefs of staff. I would venture to say there are few people who who know more about the job of chief of staff than Chris Whipple. But today we learned that Susie Wiles didn't listen to that advice. And by now, I'm betting you have probably heard about, maybe you've read, maybe you've read a couple times like I have the jaw dropping interview with Trump Chief of staff Susie Wiles that was published today in Vanity Fair by Chris Whipple. Now, in many ways, that interview has given us the most insight that we've had all year into how the Trump White House operates. And it goes a long way toward explaining why this administration is as dysfunctional as it appears to be from the outside looking in, you know, what we all think, we see what we all think is going on in there. Now, for one, Susie Wiles offers surprisingly frank hot takes on a number of her colleagues. She says that Vice President J.D. vance has been, quote, a conspiracy theorist for a decade. She calls Trump budget director Russ Vogt, quote, a right wing, absolute zealot. She calls Elon Musk, quote, an avowed ketamine user who sleeps in a sleeping bag in the executive office building during the daytime. And she describes her own boss, the President of the United States, as a man with an alcoholic's personality, in part because he operates with the view that there's nothing he can't do. Nothing. Zero, nothing. I mean, that kind of confirms a whole lot about how Trump views constraints or the lack thereof on his power right? Now, after that interview published today, Susie Wiles tried to do some damage control. The whole White House did. Now, she called the story a disingenuously framed hit piece, arguing that significant context was disregarded. But notably, and here's the key part, Wiles did not deny most of what she is quoted as saying. In fact, the only part of the interview she did explicitly deny was her claim that Elon Musk microdoses ketamine telling the New York Times, quote, that's ridiculous. I wouldn't have said it and I wouldn't know. But then, lo and behold, everyone, Chris Whipple played a tape for the New York Times in which Susie Wiles could be heard saying exactly that. Yes, there's almost always a tape. That's the thing. Now, I should note that Emma Snow has not independently heard that recording. But I reached out to Chris Whipple today and he told me that, quote, every word is on tape. So there is that everyone. Which also might explain why Susie Wiles hasn't tried to deny anything else she reportedly said in that interview. And look, as a sitting White House chief of staff just starting your tenure, it takes a certain kind of hubris to do 11 on the record interviews with a journalist Like Chris Whipple, who is literally the expert on the position you hold. The fact that Wiles continued to open up to Whipple over the course of nearly a year, again, 11 interviews, suggests to me that despite a whole lot of evidence to the contrary, she actually thought she was doing a bang up job as White House Chief of staff. She maybe thought, you know what, this is good for my legacy. I'm going to do all these interviews and it's going to tell the story of what an amazing chief of staff I was. Something like that. And that level of self assurance was likely bolstered by the view in some circles and that Wiles was the adult in the room, both in the White House and on the campaign, exuding some level of competence over the unwieldy world of Trump. Now, what's clear now after this I cannot even describe absolutely bananas interview that after it was actually published, I should say, is that she really sees her job as more of, kind of an observer of sorts, an enabler, someone who's constantly getting dragged by the string she was supposed to be pulling. I mean, for example, Wiles suggested she questioned whether Trump really wanted to pardon all 1,500 people convicted in connection with January 6, but she immediately folded when Trump decided to do it anyway on the very first day of his presidency. As Wiles explained, in every case of the ones Trump was looking at, in every case, they had already served more time than the sentencing guidelines would have suggested. So given that I sort of got on board, she sort of got on board. Sounds like she was kind of steamrolled there, doesn't it? Especially because what Trump told her to justify those pardons wasn't even true. And it was a pretty easy to figure out thing that wasn't true. I mean, she could have just asked somebody googled it, who knows? Now, as Whipple notes, according to court records, many of the January 6 rioters pardoned by Trump had received sentences that were lighter than the guidelines. And of course, they included those who had assaulted police officers and others who had been convicted of seditious conspiracy. But Susie Wiles apparently just shrugged her shoulders and never bothered to check the facts as she continued to use the same justification months later. Now, another example involved Elon Musk's decision to abruptly cut the world off from the life saving foreign aid by dismantling usaid. And as whistle, as Wiles, excuse me, explained to Whipple, quote, when Elon said we're doing this, he was already into it, probably because he knew it would be horrifying to Others. Wiles then went on to tell Whipple that it was not the way I would do it, okay? And she even admitted that Trump himself was clueless to what was going on, saying, quote, the President doesn't know and never will. He doesn't know the details of these smallish agencies. But here's the thing. It was her job to make sure he did know. That is literally her job. It was her job to explain to the President that his billionaire BFF was making decisions that would cost thousands of innocent people their lives. Instead, she just decided, I guess, to roll with it. And then there's Donald Trump's campaign of retribution against his perceived enemies. At first, Wiles told Whipple that she and Trump had, quote, a loose agreement that the score settling would end before the first 90 days are over. Well, that seems to have been a one sided agreement because of course, the score settling did not end in the first 90 days or, or at all, for that matter. I mean, just consider the recent series of attempted prosecutions and investigations of people like Adam Schiff, Letitia James, James Comey. But when Whipple asked Susie Wiles about those examples, she denied they were retribution, saying, quote, in some cases it may look like retribution and there may be an element of that from time to time. Who would blame him? Not me. But asked specifically about Trump's prosecution of Tish James Weill said, well, that might be the one retribution, which is. I mean, this is just an incredible thing to admit, as well as a huge gift to Tish James defense attorneys. Throughout the interview, Wallace repeatedly admits to having concerns about Trump's actions on Trump's cruel immigration policies, on his disastrous tariff policies, on his attempts to start a land war in Venezuela. But Wiles appears to have just stood by and let it all happen. She's there to enable. After all, that's her job, not to guide, not to push him on his worst impulses. Vice President J.D. vance is quoted in the profile saying that Miles doesn't. Wiles doesn't try to control or influence or manipulate the President. He says, quote, she's a facilitator and her job is to actually facilitate his vision and to make his vision come to life. Look, I've worked with five chiefs of staff in two different administrations. Outside the first family, the chief of staff is the single closest person to the President. They get more facetime with the President than anyone else on the White House staff or the Cabinet, and they often get the last word on any issue that crosses the President's desk. Their value is in their ability to deliver the hard truths the presidents don't often want to hear and to deliver hard truths that senior members of the staff may not want to hear, too. And that's why the chief of staff is such a crucial role, even when the president isn't a volatile sociopath with the attention span of a goldfish. Even then, don't just take it from me. The late Donald Rumsfeld, who served as chief of staff to President Gerald Ford, once told Chris Whipple, quote, the White House chief of staff is the one person besides his wife who can look him right in the eye and say, this is not right. You simply can't go down that road. But Donald Trump has made it clear that he will cast aside anyone who tries to assume that role. Rather than be a gatekeeper, Susie Wiles has given up on constraining any of Trump's worst impulses, which might explain why Trump and his Cabinet have decided to rally around Wiles today. In fact, in an interview with the New York Post today, Trump did not dispute Wiles characterization that he has an alcoholic's personality, adding that he has a possessive and addictive type personality. Okay. Likewise, JD Vance told reporters today that actually he is a conspiracy theorist before noting that he believes his theories are true, something that every other conspiracy theorist also says and believes. Maybe, at least as of tonight, Trump doesn't want to cast Susie Wiles aside, at least for now. But that doesn't mean he can't see how bad all of this looks for him and his administration. I mean, just hours after this story dropped, Trump suddenly announced he would give a primetime address to the nation about all of his so called accomplishments and then posted an unhinged greed that all but amounts to a declaration of war with the nation of Venezuela. He's trying to get us all to move on from the story about his chaotic presidency that his White House chief of staff speaks about on the record by throwing a little more chaos into the mix and in all likelihood will only get worse because Friday is deadline day for the release of the Epstein files. Millions of Americans are about to see their health care prices skyrocket. He will do or say anything to keep those stories out of the headlines. And the one person whose job it is to keep him on track has just admitted in black and white that she's simply along for the ride. So there's that. Dan Pfeiffer served as White House communications director for President Obama. He's now the co host of Pod Save America. And as I was reading this interview today, my first Thoughts were, what the hell does Dan think about all of this? Because we worked for so many chiefs of staff. Okay, obviously I saw what you post. You posted a little bit today. But give me your unfiltered WTF take on when you read this full piece from start to finish, which I'm sure you did, what did you think?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This morning I woke up earlier than usual, which is way too early, and I saw just an excerpt of the story tweeted by someone, and I couldn't believe it was real.

[Jen Psaki]

I thought it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I almost texted it to a group chat of a bunch of our former coworkers and some of my Ponzi America hosts. And I was like, let me just confirm this is real real, because this could be fake news because it was so bad. And it tells me a lot of things. You nailed a lot of them in your opening monologue here. But just the two takeaways that I have is one, just absolute rank incompetence in hubris. From Susie wiles to do 11 on the record interviews with Chris Whipple, to not seem to know whether she was on the record or not, to treat not just any reporter, but this reporter, this author, as something between a confidant and a therapist as you process the moral conflicts you're dealing with on a daily basis working for Trump. And the second part is, I think, is even bigger than the fallout of this story. It tells us everything we need to know about this White House, about how it's run, why Trump's been able to do all the things he's done, and frankly, why he's ending 2025 in his worst political position than at any point since the immediate aftermath of January 6th. And Susie Wiles, as indicated in the story, bears full responsibility for that.

[Jen Psaki]

No, I kept thinking she is perceived as the adult in the room and does not seem particularly at all competent at doing the job. She doesn't seem read in on anything. She doesn't do the work of learning about the issues she's talking about. What do you make. One of the things that struck me and I just talked about this was they all kind of surrounded her today. I mean, Trump went on the record and didn't deny he had the personality, sort of of an alcoholic. J.D. vance said, I am a conspiracy theorist. They're all surrounding her. You and I have been a part of, I guess, surrounding people who maybe are on ice. Do you think she's on ice or you think she's not on ice?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think that the Trump's interview today, a couple key Points here. One is, in the interview, Trump said he had not read the story yet. And so I don't think he had fully processed the fallout from it. I take a lot of his positive marks or positive remarks from other people. Sort of like when Michael Corleone gave Fredo the kiss in Godfather 2. It's like the last thing before the person goes. And so I think she, like, is she gonna be fired? Trump is notoriously scared to fire people, so maybe she will or not. But I think her position within this White House is definitely at great risk going forward.

[Jen Psaki]

The other thing that struck me, I mean, there was a lot. I had to reread this a couple of times. I printed it out the paper form and highlighted it, because I was like, I'm just gonna go full nerd on this whole thing. So I don't miss anything. Is that she also doesn't seem to have any sense of kind of where stories are going, where policies are going. Yet at the same time, she's repeatedly referred to as, like, the person who has Trump's ear, who has more power than anyone else. And it made me think, if she doesn't know where any of this is going or what the plan is, who does?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think no one is the answer to that. And I think there is just the JD Vance quote that you read at the top here, just summarizes everything. She does not view her job as most chiefs of staff would do, which is to be the person who has the tough conversations with the president, who tries to save the president from the Roe's own worst instincts, which you have to do even with the best of presidents. And here we have the worst of presidents. And the reason they all love her is the reason why my kids prefer their grandparents to watch them, which is they can do whatever they want. Right. There are no rules. Trump loves having her there because no one is trying to stop him from doing what he's doing. Maybe she will ask a question, but she doesn't get an answer. She just implements whatever he wants without regard. Forget like we shouldn't. Like, no liberal should think. Like, we need Susie Wiles to be like the resistance sleeper cell within there, or the Committee to Save America, protect us from Trump. She's not doing what's in Trump's best interest because she's letting Trump do whatever he wants.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. Which, I mean, I just. It made me think of Rahm Emanuel yelling at you, me, the president, if needed, Ron Klain, all of them. This is kind of what they do in order to keep things on track. The other thing that struck me, and I just referenced this, I mean, when we were part of Oval Office addresses or primetime addresses, and we're still learning what this is tomorrow, it was often weeks in the planning. Right. Sometimes it had to be quick because of news that was breaking. But they just announced today, this address tomorrow. That to me felt like they saw this big story and they were like, okay, we're gonna do something and change the subject. But I don't know what you thought when you heard that news.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I don't know. I'm always sort of hesitant to take everything as. It's just that Trump, Trump just does crazy things. And sometimes those crazy things distract from the other crazy things he did. So I don't know how much is strategy and how much is just insanity. But I think if this addresses what they build it as, which is an address about his historic accomplishments, it is Political Malpractice 101. It is akin to Trump saying at a time in which 2/3 to 3/4 of voters are unhappy with the economy that he gets an A plus plus plus plus plus Something JD Vance reaffirmed today, just you and I have worked in the White House at a time when people are unhappy with the economy. If you go out there and you pat yourself on the back, it is like sticking your thumb in voters eyes. And Trump obviously wants to do this, right? This is the thing he would want to do because he thinks it'll help himself or he just wants to be able to say he's good at things. It's Susie Wiles's job to stop him. It's the job of the people in the White House to stop him. And they're not doing it. They're just letting him make their political position worse, which I guess we should be grateful for.

[Jen Psaki]

I guess. So go on out there. I mean, you and I have been through a lot of things. We've never worked for a White House chief of staff who did 11 on the record interviews with Chris Whipple and trashed the president we worked for. So I guess we can all be grateful for that. Dan Pfeiffer, thank you as always for being here with me.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Thanks, Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

All right, coming up, Susie Wiles. As I just said, I tried to outline it, but there's a whole lot in here said a whole lot of things in these interviews about Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein, and Ghislaine Maxwell. She admitted a lot of things and she raised new questions about a lot of things. My guest is Congressman Robert Garcia. Read this interview with a great deal of interest as well. He's the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee, and I'm going to ask him about all of it when we come back.

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[Jen Psaki]

Donald Trump's chief of staff, Susie Wells shared a number of wild revelations in a piece for Vanity Fair published today, including this about the Epstein files. Trump is in the file and we know he's in the file and he's not in the file doing anything awful. Okay, we'll see. Weil said that Trump was on Epstein's plane. He's on the manifest. They were, you know, sort of young, single, whatever. I know it's a Passe word, but sort of young, single playboys together. Okay, then. I don't know why that, that's not gonna make me feel any better. I mean, needless to say, if the White House is trying to tamp down interest around this story, they aren't exactly doing a bang up job. And remember, one of the Trump administration's weirdest moves to try and make this all go away happened all the way back in the summer when Trump's former defense attorney and current number two man at the Justice Department, Todd Blanche, traveled down to Florida for an in person interview with convicted sex trafficker and longtime Epstein associate Ghislaine Maxwell. That was unusual, to say the least. Way more than that, and apparently even Susie Wiles may think so. Wiles was asked if it's typical to send the number two guy in the DOJ and the President's former defense lawyer to interview a convicted citizen sex trafficker. She answered by saying it was Blanche's suggestion. That's weird on its own. But in the days following Blanche's interview with Maxwell, Maxwell was of course transferred to a minimum security prison camp in Texas. You know, the one where she's like, playing with dogs and doing yoga. Where, according to a whistleblower, she has since received special accommodations and favorable treatment. Now, according to Susie Wiles, neither she nor Trump had been consulted about Maxwell's transfer. And that in fact, neither she nor Trump know why Maxwell was transferred, which is hard to believe. Wiles did say, if that's an important point, I can find out. Well, it is an important point, but by the time the piece was published, Wiles told Chris Whipple that she still had not found out why Maxwell was moved. Okay. Joining me now is Congressman Robert Garcia of California. He is the ranking Democrat on the House Oversight Committee. I mean, it just takes the obvious. It seems highly unusual that the President and the Chief of Staff would not know why Jeffrey Epstein's convicted accomplice was transferred to a lower minimum security prison. Right. I mean, seems impossible to believe that. But what do you think?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

Look, I think Donald Trump is not known for being very truthful or being honest with the American public. I think it's hard to believe that the President and his Chief of staff had no idea that Donald Trump's former personal lawyer was intimately involved in meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell. Apparently we learned this was actually Todd Blanche's idea. That's news to all of us. But the fact that Susie Wiles is saying that she or Trump had no idea, I find that hard to believe. What Todd Blanche did in moving a monster, a sexual trafficker, an abuser of women, to this essentially minimum secure facility where she's walking around having secret meetings nobody knows about. And now what I'd like to know after reading this article is is Susie Wiles going to actually respond and answer the question who actually asks for the transfer of Ghislaine Maxwell to the other facility? The American public and Congress wants to.

[Jen Psaki]

Know and all the survivors want to know, of course. I mean, Congressman Raskin, who's a ranking member of the Judiciary Committee, of course, everybody knows that, has kind of raised, has been looking into Maxwell's transfer. You have a lot on your plate here. You're waiting for files to come out on Friday. Is that something you think the Oversight Committee is more you could do here? This does raise a lot of questions.

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

It does. And in fact, we're working with Jimmy Raskin just hand in hand on this investigation. Their Judiciary Committee has done a great job and they're working with whistleblowers, obviously, that are giving us a lot of information and they're giving oversight as well about what's actually happening possibly in this facility. Look, Ghislaine Maxwell right now is essentially in a facility where she has freedom of movement, she has animals, apparently. She's having meetings that nobody knows about. We're getting people that are basically saying she's having meetings, that people don't understand why they're there, what is going on in this facility, and who the hell commanded that this transfer actually happen? And how does the Chief of Staff to the President, who is essentially in the middle of a scandal and a cover up around the Epstein files, have no idea or ask the question, who ordered Ghislaine Maxwell's transfer? So this is a incredibly important question to this investigation. You have the President's former lawyer involved now, Todd Blanche. You have the, the head of the Department of Justice clearly covering this whole thing up. And it's time to get to the truth. And the survivors deserve justice.

[Jen Psaki]

One of the other things Wiles undercut in there is Trump's claims against former President Bill Clinton. I mean, she seemed, of course, Trump has claimed that without evidence that Clinton visited Epstein's infamous island 28 times. Wiles told Vanity Fair there's no evidence those visits happened and also said the President was wrong about that. Do you think that admission does anything to the investigation? I mean, the committee has demanded that Clinton sit for a deposition. Of course.

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

No, look, I think that information by Susie Wiles also has been mentioned by other folks that the President actually was in Secret Service. As you know, when a President actually travels, the Secret Service is very aware where that travel is happening. And so there's no indication that that actually ever occurred. But it doesn't really matter to Republicans. I mean, James Comer right now. What's crazy is, look, we have said as Democrats, we'll talk to anybody, whether that is President Clinton, whether that is Todd Blanche, anyone that has information we're happy to speak with. But yet James Comer is obsessed with bringing in the Clintons, including Hillary Clinton, who really has no part of this investigation yet, will not demand that Ghislaine Maxwell and the subpoena on Maxwell actually gets carried out. So he's more obsessed with the politics of the Clintons than he is about getting the truth or actually getting Ghislaine Maxwell in front of the committee. We should be focused on Ghislaine Maxwell, on the former attorneys general who, who are involved in this case, are the former FBI directors that actually have information about this case. Those folks Republicans seem to have little interest in actually talking to.

[Jen Psaki]

Before I let you go because you have so much on your plate, what should we expect on Friday? What are you expecting on Friday?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

This is hard to know. I mean, look, I think first, if we look at the record, the record has been that Republicans have been obsessed with hiding the truth. They've been obsessed with hiding the Epstein files. Pam Bondi said she had the files on her desk. Apparently, according to Susie Wiles, she may have not been doing a great job for the White House there. And so I think, at the end of the day, we don't know. We know that they've been involved in covering up information. I don't expect on Friday that we're going to get all of the files released to the public and that the truth is going to come out. Will there be redactions? Are they going to give us a partial amount of documents? Are they going to say that some are under review or part of a broader investigation? The DOJ has given us zero indication of what's actually going to come out and happen on Friday. And now we have this big address tomorrow and. And all this possible invasion happening in Venezuela. There is a lot happening. I think that the President has a lot to answer to and he has the power, separate of Friday to release all the files right now.

[Jen Psaki]

No question about it. We'll all be watching. They go out to the public broadly at the same time. We'll see what happens. Thank you so much as always, for being here. I really appreciate it. Coming up, what exactly did Pete Hegseth tell lawmakers behind closed doors today? And how exactly is he justifying his ongoing cover up around those boat strikes that killed two survivors? I have the perfect person to ask. Congressman Adam Smith is the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee and he joins me here next.

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[Jen Psaki]

Tonight. President Trump announced on social media that Venezuela is completely surrounded by what he called the largest armada ever assembled in the history of South America. He said that armada was enforcing a quote, total and complete blockade of all sanctioned oil tankers going into and out of Venezuela. Now, that announcement comes just a week after the Trump administration seized an oil tanker off the coast of Venezuela. And all of that has been done without any congressional approval. And this comes just one day after the US Military struck another three boats in the Eastern Pacific, killing eight people. The strikes were the latest of the now at least 25 strikes the US military has carried out in the Caribbean and Eastern Pacific since September. Those strikes have killed at least 95 people. And again, the Trump administration is doing all of this without any approval from Congress. And now we know, thanks to the blockbuster series of interviews published today by Vanity Fair, that when Trump Chief of Staff Susie Wiles was asked about how Trump is carrying out these strikes, strikes which are essentially a small war without congressional approval, Weil said that the administration didn't need congressional approval yet. And she justified this congressional approval, less military aggression, by saying that Marco Rubio and JD Vance are up on the Hill every day chatting with Congress, basically saying that the strikes are fine because of how often members of the Cabinet are chit chatting with some members of Congress. Well, today, Trump's Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth and Secretary of State Marco Rubio gave their first classified briefings for all members of the House and Senate about US Military action surrounding Venezuela, as the Associated Press put it. Lawmakers on both sides of the aisle said they left that briefing in the dark about Trump's overall goals in Venezuela, and that the briefing did not clear up any of the confusion about whether these strikes were about alleged drug trafficking or Venezuelan regime change. Hegseth and Rubio also declined to show lawmakers the full, unedited video of the September 2nd boat attack, in which the US launched a secondary strike after a boat had already been hit to kill survivors, which may have been a war crime. So maybe some members of the Trump administration are talking with Congress every day, as Susie Wiles said. But it doesn't appear those conversations, even the classified briefings, contain any actual meaningful insight, or not enough, at least. And just because Congress is getting briefed on military actions, it doesn't mean it approves of those actions. There's a whole process for that. So not only has the Trump administration not gotten any form of congressional approval for any of this, they aren't even being fully transparent with Congress as of now. Joining me now is the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Adam Smith of Washington. You have been pushing tirelessly to have this video shared publicly, but even shared just broadly with your committee. Are you hopeful that that's going to happen soon?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

I'm not. I think they know how bad it looks, and I think that's the reason Secretary Hagsett doesn't want to release it. Now, keep in mind, the video's a part of it, and that is this decision to do a second strike on two people clinging to wreckage from the and the legality of that is really important. And the video makes it clear that this was a very, very questionable decision. But the larger Issue, to your point of what you said in your intro there, what are we doing here? All of the strikes, what is the legality of them? What's the policy behind them? Where is it headed, I think is the larger question. I think the entire operation is outside of the law and a massive expansion of President Trump's powers. He has now basically appointed himself judge, jury, and executioner, for one that he decides is trafficking and drugs. And that's a very different national security threat than if you've got somebody trying to blow up buildings or airplanes. It's a problem, but it is a very different threat. So now we've expanded this power. And then the last point, what you referenced is, is this about drugs or is this about Venezuela? Today, Hegseth and ubio seem to make it, oh, drugs are terrible, awful. This is what we're focused on. But Suzy Weil said it's really about Venezuela. And of course, we have the pardons, not just of the Honduran president, who was a convicted drug trafficker, but you've got Ross Ulbricht, the Silk Road guy who was laundering billions of dollars in drug money, who Trump also pardoned, a whole bunch of other drug dealers that he's pardoned. Look, this seems to be about Trump asserting power as president beyond the law and the Constitution and asserting his desire to dominate the Western Hemisphere. Neither of those things are in the best interests of our country.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, to your point, military strikes are not typically how drug dealers are dealt with. It's typically through the Coast Guard, typically through a very different process than what we're looking at here. And Susie Wiles, just to give people a sense, if they haven't read what you're referencing, she told Vanny Fair today that Trump, quote, wants to keep on blowing up boats up until Maduro cries uncle, which is essentially regime change and is not. Or that's how I read that. How did you read that? And what do you.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Yeah, right, exactly. And they sort of bounced around on that. And I think it's because they think there would be more sympathy if people thought this was about stopping drugs. Look, drugs are a major problem in this country. There's more sympathy for that than the guy who ran for office saying, I'm gonna get us out of the forever wars. I'm gonna stop all of these international engagements. Well, if you're starting a war to stop drug traffic in the US that is gonna be a forever war. I was gonna say a forever war that lasts a long time, but that's a little bit redundant. And Look, I mean, drugs are a major problem, but they're primarily a demand problem in the US and what are we doing about that? So really, again, think that's a bit of a distraction. It's more about Trump wanting to use the military for whatever means he wants. It's the same thing with using the military for domestic law enforcement here in the US it is a troubling expansion of the power of the president, contrary to the Constitution.

[Jen Psaki]

I just noted the post that Trump posted tonight about earlier this evening, I should say, about kind of surrounding the with the largest armada, as he called it. Is that something that came up in the briefing today? Is that something that they gave you all a heads up on?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

It did not. And keep in mind, a blockade is.

[Jen Psaki]

An act of war, a significant one.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Yes, well, all acts of war are significant to a certain degree, but it's a blockade. I mean, it's literally by definition an act of war. And the legal fiction that they're hiding behind. If you read the Office of Legal Counsel memo, half of that memo is explaining why drug cartels are a direct threat, enemy combatants to the US and the other half of it is saying, but it's not a war, because if it was a war, then you'd have to follow a whole series of laws that they're not following. This sure seems to me like it is straightforward. A war against Venezuela masquerading as some sort of effort to reduce drug problems.

[Jen Psaki]

In the US So what happens from here? For people who have been following us closely, you've been tireless on this. What's next?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Well, what's next is what Trump decides to do in terms of to continue his pressure campaign on Venezuela. Does he continue to do that? What's next for me and a lot of the rest of us is to continue to spread the message. This is a terrible, awful idea. And to try to get the public to put pressure on Republicans in Congress, to put pressure on Trump to not do this, to stop dragging us into another endless conflict, to stop abusing the power of the presidency and violating the law. We've got to build support. Cuz I don't think the public wants a war with Venezuela. He's trying to hide behind the drug thing. He's dragging us into a war with Venezuela. We got to call him on that. And we got to build opposition to that policy because it's a bad policy for all the reasons we've talked about.

[Jen Psaki]

Congressman Adam Smith, thank you for being here with us and being tireless on this and educating people out in the.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Country keep working at it.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you. All right, coming up, Congress only has a few days left to do something to keep health insurance premiums from skyrocketing for millions of Americans. But House Republicans let's led by little Mike Johnson, seem okay with doing basically nothing. Congressman Brendan Boyle of Pennsylvania has been right in the middle of this fight and he joins me next. In just over two weeks, millions of Americans are set to face skyrocketing health insurance premiums as major Affordable Care act substances subsidies expire. And with that deadline looming, Republicans seem like they're starting to at least realize the consequences of their actions, at least the political ones. House Speaker Mike Johnson has been trying to limit a House vote on a legislative fix only to a group of GOP friendly health care proposals without any vote to extend subsidies for millions of Americans. The House takes that bill up tomorrow. And moderate Republicans, the ones Johnson often calls as majority makers or at least playing livid on tv, I'll say vulnerable New York Republican Mike Lawlor slammed his party's decision to let the subsidies expire as, quote, absolute bs. Well, he actually said something stronger than bs but we're not going to say it here. He also called it political malpractice. Moderate Republicans proposed their own legislative fixes to that malpractice in the House Rules Committee tonight, though. But members of their own party voted to shut that effort down still. But make no mistake, these moderates are not heroes here. Don't I wish that they were all actually advocating for keeping your health care costs down, but that's not what they've been doing. I mean, Democrats have their own effort to force a vote on an extension. Just four Republicans could join to force a vote on that. But they haven't done that. They've had months to address this problem, to work across the aisle on a solution, and they didn't. And as a result, the cost of healthcare for more than 20 million people in this country is about to skyrocket. Joining us now is Congressman Brendan Boyle, a Democrat from Pennsylvania and the ranking member on the House Budget Committee where most of the ACA subsidy fight has been unfolding. So let me start here. I mean, there's been a lot of noise out there of, you know, Republicans saying we have a plan to fix health care and lower health care costs, too. And it kind of sounds good, right? And if you're shopping for Christmas presents, you're like, well, they have a plan. They have a plan. But. But that's not the reality here. Break down for us. Kind of what their Plans are and why it doesn't kind of meet the mark.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

Yeah. Well, first, good to be with you in person to attempt to explain this madness. So the original sin here is the Republican tax bill this summer. That bill essentially throws 15 million Americans off their health care in order to pay for tax breaks for billionaires. Every, almost every Republican, every Republican except for two in the House and almost every Republican in the Senate voted for that piece of legislation. Now that the first of those cuts are about to take effect January 1st, and that's to Obamacare, you have some pretend moderates who, they like to play moderate at election time, but then they always vote with Trump and always vote with Republican leadership. They are attempting to do something to repair the damage that their vote helped inflict on the American people. But let's not forget the new Republican health care plan that they just introduced that they are debating right now in Rules Committee and we're supposed to vote tomorrow on the House floor. It doesn't erase any of the losses of the 15 million Americans who are about to lose their health care. In fact, the Congressional Budget Office has a report out today saying an additional hundred thousand people a year will also lose their health care because of this new Republican plan. So. So that is exactly where we stand right now. And the reality is, in addition to the millions of Americans who are going to lose their health care, there are also tens of millions more who are facing price hikes through the roof because of these Republican bills.

[Jen Psaki]

100,000 more. All I'm going to fix. Health care promises are not created equal. That is the main point here. I ran into you in the hallway last week here, and I was like, please ignore. Explain to me all the discharge petitions. So one of the things I just noted, I mean, the discharge petition would require 218 votes. There's one that Leader Jeffries has had that would extend for three years. Am I right?

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

Right. Clean extension.

[Jen Psaki]

Clean extension.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

Three years, 214 signatures. Every single House Democrat from Jared golden to Pramila Jayapal to everyone in between. All House Democrats agree. We're going right up to the deadline here. Let's just have a clean extension. Not one Republican is signed on to this discharge petition.

[Jen Psaki]

Not one. And there's been a number. Not Mike Lawlor.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

No Mike Lawler who just called BS.

[Jen Psaki]

On this whole thing. He didn't sign the discharge petition. Not Fitzpatrick, who co sponsored the bill. Kagan's not. None.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

None.

[Jen Psaki]

There only needs to be four. And there are more than four Republicans who are screaming foul about them not being extreme.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

And right now, to quote an old line, at the 0.0 of those Republicans are signed onto the discharge petition. That is right now, by the way, the only play if you really want to delay these Obamacares or prevent them, these Obamacare cuts, if you want to prevent them from happening. Because just tonight Republican leadership shot down their own Republican amendments to at least do something that might not be a clean extension, but it would at least be like a half measure. Republican leadership won't even allow a vote on that, even when it's introduced by.

[Jen Psaki]

A Republican member, which is now in the senate. You need 60 votes. There was only 51 votes last week. So that's its own hurdle. There was a deadline just yesterday for people to sign up. Right. For new health care. There's another timeline if I get this right, on January 15th. So people would have a gap if they didn't sign up by yesterday. But if this could be fixed by the 15th, potentially people could sign up by February 1st, right?

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

That is correct. Although it creates a great deal of confusion because of course, people have already gotten letters announcing what their premium increases are going to be. And you know, in my state of Pennsylvania, I'll use this as an example, the average increase on our state exchange, 102%. So that means for your average family that gets their health care through the Obamacare exchange in Pennsylvania, overnight their monthly premium is doubling.

[Jen Psaki]

So how does this get fixed? I mean, what happens? I mean, Democrats are not in control of Congress. Maybe a year from now they will be. Is this people feeling the pain of being kicked off their health care in January and there being a rush to try to fix it in January.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

What I would hope would happen, and certainly we're pushing to happen, is that enough House Republicans and enough Senate Republicans would be more afraid of their angry voters facing them next fall than they are afraid of crossing Donald Trump. That's what it will take.

[Jen Psaki]

Let's hope. They should take a look at some of the recent election results. It's politically right, including as well as morally right. That's the right.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

There is a reason why Democrats continue to over perform in every special election this year by an average of 14 points.

[Jen Psaki]

This is a. Hopefully they'll do some thinking over the holidays. Thank you. As always. As I always say, it's important who the ranking members are. You are a ranking member. Excellent explaining things. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. All right, we've got to sneak in a very quick break, but tonight is a night when you're really going to want to hear what Lawrence has to say. And I will be right back. Okay. A very quick and very exciting programming note before we go. On Thursday night at 8pm Eastern, Jonathan Capehart will be speaking with former first lady Michelle Obama for an exclusive interview here on MSNow. You will not want to miss it. I don't want to miss it. That does it for me tonight. You can catch the show, too, Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on Ms. Now. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok.

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[Jen Psaki]

Know, the real you.

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