← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
Trump freaks out at reminder to military that he's not king
00:40:36
Donald Trump has made flouting the law and daring anyone to challenge his ability to do so a hallmark of his second term, but a new video reminding Americans of the limits of Trump's power has him in a red-faced tantrum. The video consists of several members of Congress who are veterans of the military and intelligence services pointing out the fact that members of the military are not required to follow illegal orders.
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Chris Deluzio
Download Today Believe it or not, in this sort of hellscape of a week, it's only Thursday, but we know enough already to say that this has been the worst week of Donald Trump's second term. He suffered a humiliating defeat in his effort to stop Congress from passing the bill to release the Epstein files, which he was forced to sign last night in a bit of a humiliating fashion. He didn't have any press there or anything like that. His various obsessive efforts to prosecute his political enemies are all completely falling apart one by one. They seem to be, some of them in truly hilarious ways. This is what Chris was referencing, and I'm going to dig more into that a little bit later in the hour. And he has had to weather yet another round of absolutely brutal polls, including a new Fox News poll out just today. And guys, Fox News polls, they hit a little different in this White House. I mean, that Fox News poll out today showed voters disapprove of the job he's doing as president by a 17 point margin. That's the worst approval rating he's had in that poll during his second term. Voters also think Trump's economic policies are hurting them more than helping them by a 31 point margin. Remember, this is the guy who ran on trying to help make people's lives better. And despite Trump's repeated attempts to blame the bad economy on Joe Biden, voters say Trump is more responsible than his predecessor for the state of the economy by a 30 point margin. Every time we think these numbers can't possibly get worse for him, they do. And what does Donald Trump do when all this news is bad for him? When all anyone wants to talk about is his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And what exactly is in those files when every headline and push alert shows him losing ground and losing support, including among some of his own supporters? Well, for starters, he tries to silence his critics. He starts lashing out at journalists, calling them names, as he did with two female reporters this week, calling one of them piggy. He renews his calls to take away broadcast licenses from news outlets he doesn't like, as he did once again with ABC News this week. He even asks his billionaire buddies for help in silencing media he doesn't like. I mean, we just learned this week that the White House reportedly talked to billionaire Larry Ellison about taking over CNN and firing specific anchors. Trump doesn't want to have anchoring rolls anymore when none of that works, when all of his threats and all of his bowling fails to stop the onslaught of negative headlines. Trump kind of has one tactic that he always falls back on. He does something that is completely outrageous and beyond the pale, in part to change the subject. And this time, Trump managed to find the perfect vehicle for his latest tantrum with the help of his old friends at Fox News. You see, last night, when most news outlets were focused on the breaking news that Congress had effectively forced Trump to sign the Epstein Files Transparency Act, Fox News ran cover for Trump with hysterical wall to wall coverage of a very different story. The story that a group of Democrats made a video and posted it online. What was the video that caused so much outrage, you ask? Well, here it is.
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Jen
I was a captain in the United.
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Congressman Chris Deluzio
States Navy, former CIA officer, former Navy, former paratrooper and Army Ranger, former intelligence.
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Congresswoman Maggie Goodlander
Officer, former Air Force.
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Jen
We want to speak directly to members of the military and the intelligence community. Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.
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Chris Deluzio
You can refuse illegal orders.
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Congressman Chris Deluzio
You must refuse illegal orders.
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Chris Deluzio
No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution. That was it. Members of Congress, all of whom are former military or CIA officers, reminding current service members of the fact that they do not have to follow illegal orders. They repeated that over and over again. Now, it's an incredibly strange thing for a news network to get so outraged about, or really for anyone to get outraged about. I mean, what is the alternative view here? That members of the military should follow unlawful orders? I mean, that's part of what they pledge not to do. But Donald Trump's response was dangerous and unhinged, even by Trump's standards. I mean, this morning, Trump reposted a social media post from one of his supporters calling for all of the Democratic members in that video to be hanged. And as if Trump wanted to make sure there was no ambiguity about what he meant, he followed up with his own post. Seditious behavior punishable by death. Just to really make crystal clear where he was coming from. That is how Donald Trump decided to try and change the subject, calling for his opponents to be strung up and killed, accusing them of treason. Now, in response to Trump's threat, Chuck Schumer had to ask the Capitol Police for added protection for the Democratic members featured in that video. Meanwhile, Trump's minions all fanned out everywhere to defend his outrageous comments.
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Ken Delaney
What I read was he was defining the crime of sedition. Okay, I don't. That is, that is a. That is a factual statement, but obviously attorneys have to parse the language and determine all that. What I'm saying, what I will say unequivocally is that was a wildly inappropriate thing for so called leaders in Congress to do.
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Chris Deluzio
Okay, I just told you everything that happened. I showed you the video. I mean, it is pretty rich for little Mike Johnson to claim that Trump's musings about the death of members of Congress was just him stating the law and then going on to attack Democrats who actually were just stating the law, telling service members that under the law, they do not have to follow illegal orders, which is the law. But that really does seem to be the argument that Trump World has landed on. Why aren't you talking about what these members of Congress are doing to encourage and incite violence? They are literally saying to 1.3 million active duty service members not to defy the chain of command, not to follow lawful orders, every single order, which is. But they're suggesting. They're suggesting, Nancy, that the President has given illegal orders, which he has not. Facts are really on your side there on that one, Caroline. I mean, she and Trump's other minions want everyone to believe that the video, the video I just showed you is the real scandal here. But the need for this message that came from those members who have all served isn't academic and it's not theoretical. It was prompted by the actions of the current commander in chief. The Trump administration has now killed more than 80 people on airstrikes, on boats his administration claims are trafficking drugs. Congress has not authorized a war against the people on those boats. They get no due process, no trial, no opportunity to defend themselves, which is why many legal experts believe those strikes are illegal. And Trump has a long history of ordering the military to do things that courts or military leaders have deemed unlawful. I mean, his troop deployments in Several American cities have been blocked by the courts. And just today, literally today, a judge blocked his deployment of troops in Washington, D.C. on the grounds that it is most likely unlawful as well. And that was supposed to be the one where he was on the most sound legal footing, remember? And of course, this kind of thing isn't limited to his second term. I mean, during his first administration, Trump's then Defense Secretary, Mark Esper claimed that Trump asked about whether the military could just open fire on peaceful protesters. According to Esper, Trump asked, can't you just shoot them? Just shoot them in the leg or something? This is a long time thing. But not to worry, because the current Secretary of Defense is a former cable news host who promised to quit drinking before he took the job. And Pete Hegseth has notably refused to answer questions about whether he would allow Trump to shoot unarmed protesters. Have you given the order to be able to shoot at unarmed protesters in any way? Have you given the order that they can use lethal force against honor? I want the answer to be no. Please tell me it's no. Have you given the order, Senator?
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Jonathan Karl
I'd be careful what you read in books and believing it.
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Jen
Except for the Bible.
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Chris Deluzio
Oh, my God. I mean, I love her last response there. Okay, so, yes, there are many legitimate reasons for lawmakers to remind members of the military that they don't have to follow illegal orders. We shouldn't lose sight of the very real threat those lawmakers were addressing in the first place. And we should not ignore how incredibly dangerous it is for the President of the United States to threaten his political opponents with death. But we should also remember why this is all happening, why Trump is suddenly thumping his chest and reposting crazy death threats. He's losing the public. He's losing allies in Congress. He's losing his battle against his perceived enemies. And last night or this morning, after he signed the bill to release the Epstein files, he saw a way to change the subject. He saw a way to assert to the public that he still has some power. We've been in this moment before. Trump is weak. He's lashing out by making threats. So how do we treat those threats with the seriousness they deserve without handing him the distraction he's looking for? I have just the person to ask who's covered him for a long time. Joining me now is Jonathan Karl. He's the chief Washington correspondent for ABC News and author of the new book One of Retribution, which gets more and more relevant by the day. It's really remarkable of the books you've written how many moments there are that you can reflect on when you look at what we see from Trump and realize this is behavior that we see over and over again. Let me first ask you about the events of today. I mean, you covered him for a long time when you saw that post this morning where he was reposting a threat, then he kind of did another one just to make clear where he was coming from. There are a lot of reasons I just outlined that may have prompted that. What did you think?
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Jonathan Karl
Well, first of all, it sounded eerily familiar. I mean, I mean, we saw him do it with General Milley and suggest that General Milley, you know, could be brought before a firing squad. We saw him literally talk about a firing squad regarding Liz Cheney during the campaign. We talkedwe saw him during the campaign talk about how the enemy within in some ways is more dangerous than our foreign enemies, the enemy within. And maybe we need to use the military to go after the enemy, enemy within. These are things that he said just in the campaign that he won. But look, I mean, really what I thought immediately was what you alluded to in the beginning, which is the need for a distraction. This Epstein vote was a colossal defeat for Donald Trump, one that he really hadn't seen to this degree ever. And it rattled him. There is no question it rattled him. He tried mightily to prevent that vote from happening. I mean, all the, the atmospherics, the bringing in Lauren Boebert to the Situation Room, the calling Nancy Mace, calling Lauren Boebert, and to see his loyal followers just abandon him and to see the vote as it came out, only a single dissenting vote. Now, obviously in the end, as he saw he was losing, he said, go ahead, vote for it. But this was a colossal defeat for Donald Trump and it rattled him. And he was eager to change the.
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Chris Deluzio
Subject, going back to, I mean, history repeats, especially in the world of Trump, and you're quite an expert on that. He seems to also go to using the military as a form of showing his strength. That's a strong man characteristic. We've seen this by other leaders he admires around the world. I mean, this seems to be the case here where he wants to assert that I guess he can tell the military whatever they want to do. There is not such a thing as an illegal order. Do you think that's what this is about?
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Jonathan Karl
Look, in his very first days in office, who did he turn to? He turned to the big four star generals. You know, he got John Kelly to come in. He got General Mattis to come in. He believed that these were, as he said, my generals right out of central casting. And he thought they would be his generals. And what he found is that they swore an oath to the Constitution and they took that oath very seriously. They did not. They wanted to serve him as the commander in chief, but that their ultimate loyalty was to the Constitution. And it's interesting to see this time around he hasn't done that. We don't see retired generals coming in. We don't. We don't. You know, he has moved in a different direction, but he believes that the military, just like the Department of Justice, are ultimately to be loyal to him.
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Chris Deluzio
You've covered the military, you've covered Congress. I would say these members of Congress who were in this video are not knee jerk people looking for controversy. They're not throwing themselves in the middle of random food fights. They're all people who served. It seems like his reaction is to try to scare them. Is it more complicated than that or is that what it's about?
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Jonathan Karl
Well, look, first of all, there is real concern within the ranks of the military. I've heard it from people that I have spoken to, and I know others have as well, senior officers, retired officers, junior members of the military, about the politicization of an institution that fundamental to America is that we have a non political military, a military that doesn't serve a political party, doesn't serve an individual, but serves the country. And there's real concerns about it. I write in the book about what happened at Fort Bragg when in June of this year, Donald Trump went and gave essentially a political speech. They literally brought in, you know, they brought in merchandise to sell. Trump campaigned merchandise on the base.
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Chris Deluzio
Yeah.
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Jonathan Karl
And some of the personnel were wearing some of that merchandise. And some of the junior members of the military were cheering on and booing on cue as Trump was attacking his political opponents. And I talked to others just as that was happening, who were horrified of what that represented.
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Chris Deluzio
One of the things that some of these members, Senator Slotkin and others, and I'm about to talk to two of them in a moment, have referenced is what we've seen with these boats, that there's been 80 individuals who've been killed. There has not been due process. We have not had proof of who these individuals are. That seems to be one of the places where members of the military are expressing private concern to members of Congress. Are you hearing the same thing? And are you hearing other issues in terms of the use of the military? I mean, deploying them to cities in the country? What are you hearing from your sources about what worries them.
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Jonathan Karl
I mean, frankly, I was hearing this before the attacks on the boats, certainly the attacks on the boats. But it's the speech he gave when Hegseth, you know, brought in all those commanders from around the world and, you know, they were talking. Trump talked about using the streets of America's cities as a training ground for the military. It's that kind of language. So I think this is beyond just what we're seeing in the Caribbean.
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Chris Deluzio
Retribution. There's so many meanings of that. Right. I mean, and we're seeing it play out in many ways, including how Trump is using the Department of Justice. You referenced the Epstein files in the vote. We now are now 29 days. I suppose we are a countdown of when the deadline is for these files to be released. What are you knowing the Trump administration, how he operates, how they operate, what are you watching for in terms of how they might try to withhold information? Or that's, I guess, my theory. I assume you're a skeptic. You have the same.
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Jonathan Karl
I mean, I wouldn't expect that on day 29, you know, day 30, we're going to actually see everything released. That bill had a huge loophole, a couple loopholes in it, but a really big one, allowing the retention of documents that are tied to an ongoing investigation. And of course, Trump has now asked his attorney general to investigate the Democrats, which she complied with almost immediately. So I think there are a number of methods that they can use to limit the disclosure of those documents. And also the other big loophole potentially is the protecting information that might harm victims. So, look, first of all, wasn't it extraordinary to see as Pam Bondi promised to release all of this earlier this year and said that there were a thousand personnel task to the to going through those Epstein files? I mean, first of all, just imagine that much personal. I mean, what else is going on?
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Chris Deluzio
Yet they hadn't seen the Epstein estate.
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Jonathan Karl
Files, and yet, you know, Todd Blanche went and met with Maxwell and he has said that he didn't see any of those emails that we just saw released from the committee that had come from the estate. Pretty extraordinary.
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Chris Deluzio
Yeah. And taking their eye off of other things.
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Jonathan Karl
I think that's my point is what were those people? These are people that are working on national security, counterterrorism, you know, major crime. What were they not doing while they were going through these Epstein files?
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Chris Deluzio
That is one of the most important undercovered things. We have to take a very quick break. You know how this goes. We'll be back in 90 seconds.
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Chris Deluzio
We are back with ABC News chief Washington correspondent Jonathan Karl. He's the author of the new book newish book Retribution, which hopefully people have read. If you haven't read, go out and buy it. Let's talk about the press. This is one of the biggest attacks. It seems worse to me than it was the first term. You can tell me if you agree or disagree. Your colleague Mary Bruce had a really amazing moment where she just keep plowing forward even when Trump was calling her fake news in the Oval Office and kept asking the questions that needed to be asked. That seems to be the strategy that she follows. You follow. Others who've covered Trump a long time follow. I think a lot of people out there are like why don't you yell at him? Why don't you tell him he's. Why is that the right strategy?
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Jonathan Karl
Well, I'll tell you why we don't, like, yell at him and get all indignant about it. And how dare you say this about me? Because, look, Mary handled exactly right. And I'm so enormously proud of Mary Bruce from going into that, going into the Oval Office, asking exactly the questions that needed to be asked and doing them in a respectful and reasonable way. And then when she is attacked by the President of the United States, not reacting in anger or lashing out, but just continuing to ask the questions that needed to be asked. And look, if a journalist is going in there and picking a fight with the president on personal grounds, you've lost. You've lost sight of what your job is. Remember when Trump came into office the first time around, he said the fake news is the opposition party. Opposition party. Well, we're not the opposition party. We don't take sides. We ask the questions. You remember when you were there under. When I was the White House correspondent and president.
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Chris Deluzio
You're a pain in the neck.
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Jonathan Karl
I annoyed you a lot, and you never threatened me. Thank you. But I mean, that's our job, is we. There's a naturally adversarial relationship. Respectful, but adversarial. And if you're making it about yourself, you have lost sight of what your real job is.
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Chris Deluzio
There've been steps that the press corps has taken. I mean, the Pentagon press corps walked out of the Pentagon.
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Jonathan Karl
They had to.
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Chris Deluzio
They had to. That hasn't happened at the White House yet. The White House briefing room, still full of Mary Bruce's and others. But increasingly there's more time spent in that briefing room and in the pool by people who are sycophants. They are repeating. I can use that word. I mean, they are repeating Trump talking points. They're even feeding into conspiracy theories. You know, at the same time, there's also been reporting, I referenced this earlier about Trump having a meeting with Larry Ellison to talk about CNN anchors that he may want to see thrown out. I'm bringing all of this up because I think the question is, what can the White House press corps do in this moment? I'm not a believer they can just walk out because then who's covering the White House?
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Jonathan Karl
That's ridiculous. That would be a terrible thing to do.
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Chris Deluzio
But what can they do?
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Jonathan Karl
I think keep focused on your job. By the way, this notion of talking to Larry Ellison is not entirely new. I remember in the first term, he brought in some executives from CBS News and made the case you should be the right wing. You should be the conservative network. You could compete with Fox News. You'd get all the great. They didn't take him up on the offer, but this is something he's done. Look, in terms of the threats, you have to remain. You have to be focused. But I do say that I do worry about the threats that journalists get when the president lashes out. There was an incident in 2019. Trump was talking about the press as the enemy of the people, particularly, particularly incendiary attack. I was the president of the White House Correspondents association, and I went in to speak to him in the Oval Office, and I said, don't you worry when you say that that people will take your words to heart. I went in there because we had just witnessed two mass shootings in our country in El Paso and Dayton. This is 2019. And he said, without batting an eye, no, no, no. I hope they take my words to heart because the fake news is the enemy of the people. It's like he didn't comprehend that his words could have an impact, that people could actually act on what he is saying, take them literally and act on what he is saying.
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Chris Deluzio
Do you still think that's the case when you saw what he tweeted today?
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Jonathan Karl
I mean, it's deeply, deeply troubling because the threats we all know are real and they are constant. And some of the we've seen plots that have been foiled, but that got pretty damn close to being successful. Donald Trump himself has been the victim of two, two really serious assassination attempts, both of which the second one more close to killing him than the first. I mean, he of all people should know that it's dangerous out there.
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Chris Deluzio
Jonathan Karl, the author of many books, including Retribution, which is a must read for people trying to understand what the hell is happening right now. Thank you so much for being here.
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Jonathan Karl
Thank you, Jim.
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Chris Deluzio
All right, coming up, Donald Trump accused them of sedition. Donald Trump called them crazy traitors. Donald Trump said what they did should be punishable by death. Congressman Chris Deluzio and Congressman Maggie Goodlander are two of the lawmakers who are in the president's crosshairs, and they join me here next.
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- [26:02]
Chris Deluzio
Donald Trump called Democratic lawmakers traitors today for reminding active duty service members that they are obligated to refuse Illeg orders. But it's worth remembering that this is not a radical concept. This is literally the law. And also here's what Maryland Governor Westmore told me just last month.
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Congressman Chris Deluzio
We take the oath that we are going to follow the Constitution of the United States of America and we will follow the lawful orders of the commander in chief. That's the struggle that I think for a lot of members in the military, they're figuring right now we will follow the commands of our commander in chief. That's the oath they took. Of course, when they're lawful.
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Chris Deluzio
When they're lawful. That's the key part. It's the same message. But Trump reacted differently this time. Maybe it's because his hand was forced in releasing the Epstein files. Maybe it's the recent wave of terrible polling headlines. Who knows? But what is clear, what has always been clear, is that his words have real consequences. And today the evidence came very quickly. One of the Democratic senators in the ad, Alissa Slotkin, says she now has a Capitol Police officer detailed to her 24, 7. She said, quote, we've had hundreds and hundreds, if not closer to 1,000 threats. That's just today. Joining me now are two Democratic members of Congress who were in that ad who have served themselves, who are urging servicemembers to remember their oaths. Pennsylvania Congressman Chris d', Aluzio, who served three deployments as an active duty officer in the US Navy and New Hampshire Congresswoman Maggie Goodlander, who served as an intelligence officer in the U.S. navy Reserve. Thank you both so much for being here.
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Congressman Chris Deluzio
Thank you.
- [27:36]
Chris Deluzio
Let me just start by asking you each how you are and if you have experienced what Senator Slotkin has experienced in terms of threats over the last 24 hours or less than 24 hours.
- [27:49]
Congressman Chris Deluzio
No one wants to have the president call for their death and hanging, which he's done to us and other of our colleagues. And that's a terrifying prospect. But I know, and I'm certain Maggie will say the same thing. We're not going to be deterred from doing our job and doing our duty, upholding the oath we both swore and our colleagues have all sworn to the Constitution. I'm not going to be intimidated by this president or anyone else. And I think it says something to the country that a president, most powerful person on planet Earth, when confronted with members of Congress saying a basic, fundamental truth about our Constitution, responds with a threat of death. That tells you who he is in his regard for the law.
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Chris Deluzio
It's quite telling. It really is. Have you had to get any new additional protections as a result of what Trump did this morning?
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Congresswoman Maggie Goodlander
Look, you know, it's impossible not to take steps when the President of the United States threatens you with violence. But the bottom line is we love this country, we love our Constitution. And what we've said is simply what the law is. And that is not a crime. That is not sedition. That is our job as lawmakers. And our message is to our service members who respect and who need to know that we've got their back. You know, I think, Chris, you probably feel the same way. If I were in the Navy now, I would want to hear from members of Congress, I want to hear from the country that we are supported in upholding our oath to this Constitution.
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Chris Deluzio
Because members of the military, I think some of them are scared right now about what they're being asked to do and whether it's legal. Right. I mean, that seems to be what prompted you to be a part of this.
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Congressman Chris Deluzio
And I think, look, we have the best and brightest. We have the best fighting force in the world, period. People understand their oaths, and senior leaders have the assistance of JAGs, military lawyers to help them navigate through these questions. I have the utmost confidence in our service members, from the most junior to the most senior, that they understand the responsibilities. It's something we learned. Whether you were at boot camp or officer candidate school, you name it, you learn on day one that you are compelled to comply with lawful orders from the president on down, and you're never compelled to comply with illegal ones. That is a basic principle in our constitutional system.
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Chris Deluzio
I played a little bit of what Speaker Mike Johnson said earlier today. He got a second bite of the apple. I just want to play that and we'll talk about it.
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Ken Delaney
The words that the president chose are not the ones that I would use. Okay. Obviously, I don't think that these are crimes punishable by death or any of that. Sometimes he uses heated rhetoric.
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Commercial Announcer
Okay.
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Ken Delaney
But do any of you agree that that's appropriate, that they should be telling young members of the military to defy orders? You should think about the implications of that. The president's trying to make a point. I think he made the point.
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Chris Deluzio
First of all, I don't know what point the president was trying to make. I also. You were not telling anyone to defy legal orders, illegal orders. I've been around this town long enough to remember when supporting and supporting colleagues, when there are security threats is a bipartisan thing, when supporting the military is a bipartisan thing. What do you make of that response?
- [30:53]
Congresswoman Maggie Goodlander
Look, you know, the speaker is. He's missing the point here. Our point is really straightforward and simple, and we shouldn't. This is just not who we are as a country.
- [31:04]
Congressman Chris Deluzio
And look, I'll say it quite clearly. I heard from a lot of Republicans demanding that Democrats condemn the killing of Charlie Kirk, which we did. I was proud to say that when Donald Trump was nearly killed, we quickly condemned that violence in my home state of Pennsylvania, when Josh Shapiro was nearly killed in Governor's mansion. You don't get to pick or choose when political violence shows up, whether you condemn it. I have not heard strong condemnations from my Republican counterparts. I hope they will do that. This shouldn't be difficult. The president called for our death and hanging because we said something basic and fundamental about our Constitution.
- [31:38]
Chris Deluzio
It should not be difficult. And I would condemn and call for, I mean, calm in any of those circumstances. And if anybody was threatened. Let's go back to the original meaning and reason for the PSA or for the video that you all did. It was prompted. I know you've each talked about this in different ways in the media. It seemed to be prompted by concerns, perhaps within the military, by some of what you have all seen as people who have served. That you have concerns about the legality of this is one of the talking points from the right wing that I think is so insane that there's no specific cases where there was any illegal actions. Tell me about what Are you looking at that prompted you to want to be a part of this effort?
- [32:19]
Congresswoman Maggie Goodlander
Look, we've got a president of the United States who has repeatedly tested the boundaries of the law, who has issued unlawful orders, illegal orders, again and again. Just today, we saw a federal court responding to that. And we've got a secretary of defense who came before our committee, the House Armed Services Committee. I asked him a very simple question, a question that has only one answer. The question was, will you abide by a decision of the United States Supreme Court? He refused to commit to doing so. This puts our service members in a terrible situation. And it's on all of us to be very clear. This is a moment for moral clarity and for legal clarity. And what we have done is to state a simple and critical principle of law.
- [33:04]
Chris Deluzio
I think you're both providing a great deal of moral clarity. As I was just talking with Jonathan Karl about, Neither of you are people who are out there looking for conflict or looking to make waves. You're there stating a principle and a value you believe in, which is incredibly powerful. I thank you both so much for being here. I know this is. This has been a challenging day, and you're standing firmly despite that. Thank you again.
- [33:27]
Congresswoman Maggie Goodlander
Thank you.
- [33:28]
Chris Deluzio
Okay, coming up, we're going to take a quick break, but coming up, if you thought Lindsey Halligan had already won the award for worst Trump lawyer of the week, think again. That's next. We talked about Trump, Trump's new federal prosecutor for the Eastern District of Virginia, Lindsay Halligan, and how she may have bungled the indictment against James Comey so badly that the case may ultimately be dismissed. Now, today we got a story that feels like the news gods heard that story and said, hold my beer. I mean, do you remember just how, just about a month ago, we got the news that the politicized mortgage fraud investigation into Democratic California Senator Adam Schiff had stalled after months of investigating. The top federal prosecutor in charge of the case told the DOJ that there was not enough evidence to indict. But that news didn't sound right to conservative activist realtor and California congressional candidate Christine Bish. There's a lot packed in there. I mean, by claimed that the news couldn't be true, she said that she was the author of the report that initiated the Justice Department's investigation. She said that she was the key witness and that the case couldn't possibly be over because she had been summoned to Maryland, where the case was being investigated for questioning. And it turns out the very last part of that was true. Today, Byssh really was interviewed by a prosecutor in Maryland. But while she thought they were going to be asking her about Adam Schiff, they didn't. As Byssh put it to CBS News today, they weren't asking her about Schiff. They were asking her about other people who were investigating Schiff. Well, that just got very awkward. Sources familiar with the matter tell ABC News that the FBI realized something fishy was going on when they first went to interview. By when FBI agents first made contact with her by expressed confusion about why federal investigators sought to speak with her again, telling agents that she had repeatedly spoken with a man she believed worked for the Department of Justice. Now, as it turns out, that person Bush had been talking to did not work for the Department of Justice, but he does appear to have been working on Trump's behalf. Now, there's a lot of details here. To understand what is going on here, we have to just zoom out just for a bit, just for a second. If the investigation into Adam's Schiff from mortgage fraud sounds familiar to you, it may be because that is what so many of Trump's perceived enemies have been investigated for. New York Attorney General Letitia James, former FBI Director James Comey, Fed Board Governor Lisa Cook, Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell, all of them. The Justice Department has investigated all of them for mortgage fraud. All of them claim there's no merit to those investigations. But at the core of those investigations are these two men you can see on your screen, Ed Martin and Bill Pulte. Now, Bill Pulte is the director of the normally somewhat boring Federal Housing Finance Agency. While that agency traditionally focuses on our nation's mortgage industry at a macroeconomic scale to Prevent, say, another 2008 style housing market collapse. Pulte has instead focused a lot of his time on investigating the mortgages of individuals and specifically individuals who are perceived enemies of Trump's. There's that. Then there's Ed Martin. Now, you likely remember him as the guy who donned a Columbo style trench coat. You can see him there. And posed for a photographer from the New York Post outside of New York, Attorney General and perceived Trump enemy Letitia James apartment while he was investigating her for alleged mortgage fraud. There you go. In his costume. Trump appointed Martin to lead his so called weaponization working group at the Justice Department. Then Pam Bondi made Martin a, quote, special attorney for mortgage fraud. But now today, Ms. Now reports that a federal grand jury in Maryland is investigating them. Oh, how the tables have turned. I mean, specifically a federal grand jury in Maryland is investigating whether Bill Pulte and Ed Martin illegally shared sensitive grand jury information with unauthorized people and whether the investigations that Pulte and Martin were doing were tainted by the investigative methods the two used. Not only could that be used by defense attorneys in the investigations into Adam Schiff and Letitia James to get the cases dismissed, but if the grand jury in Maryland decides to indict Bill Pulte and Ed Martin, they could be looking at criminal charges themselves, charges like obstruction of justice and contempt of court. Now, when asked about today's news, the Justice Department had no comment. Ms. Now has also reached out to Bill Pulte for comment, but has yet to hear back. But now that I've kind of zoomed out a little and explained all that context, let's just zoom back in again because sources familiar with the matter tell ABC News that someone had been questioning California conservative activist Christine Bish about Adam Schiff's mortgage and claiming they were with the Justice Department, but they weren't actually FBI agents or prosecutors involved in the case. It wasn't Ed Martin. It wasn't Bill Pulte, but that person's question started the investigation that may now have them both in hot water. So who was it? Well, Emma Snow's Kundalinian has been breaking news on this story all day and he's going to join me and explain it all next. Before the break, I tried to explain the story of how the self described key witness in the seemingly politicized mortgage fraud investigation into Democratic Senator Adam Schiff surprised the FBI when they went to interview her. Sources familiar with the matter tell ABC News that she thought she had already been talking to someone from the Justice Department involved in the investigation. She hadn't. The person she actually had been talking to was this guy here with Robert Bose, who is appointed by Trump, President Trump, to be detailed to the DOJ and do a lot of great things. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you're doing? Sure.
- [39:27]
Rubrik Advertiser
I'm a financial fraud expert. I'm in Office of Personnel Management.
- [39:30]
Chris Deluzio
But detailed to DOJ looking at mortgage.
- [39:32]
Rubrik Advertiser
Fraud and other types of fraud.
- [39:35]
Chris Deluzio
Well, that man, Robert Bose says he was working for the Justice Department. He does not. He's one of two people a federal grand jury is now learning may have presented themselves as federal investigators working on behalf of Trump appointees Ed Martin and Bill Pulte. And that is just part of the alleged misconduct that the grand jury is investigating Ed Martin and Bill Pulte for. It's quite a story. Joining me now is one of the reporters who broke the story about Today's grand jury, Ms. now, justice and intelligence correspondent Ken Delaney. And, Ken, this is quite a story. I think we are all piecing it together as we heard all updates from you guys internally. So explain to us who Robert Bose and Scott Strauss are and why it's potentially problematic they were allegedly involved in JoJ investigation into Trump's perceived political foes.
- [40:22]
Ken Delaney
Yeah.
- [40:22]
Jen
Good evening, Jen. This is an extraordinary story, one of the most surprising stories I've covered at the Trump Justice Department. And one legal scholar today called it an extraordinary sign of life for the rule of law. I'm not sure that that's the case, but clearly you have one part of the Justice Department investigating, essentially, another part of the Justice Department. So these two gentlemen you referenced. I interviewed Christine Bish, as many other reporters did today, via telephone, and she explained that she spoke to both of these people, and they represented. They were working for an arm of the government. She did not say the Justice Department to me, but she didn't see any problem with it because from her point of view, mortgage records are publicly available, and they're a matter of public records. And whoever wants to gather that information and present it to the Justice Department is fine with her. And that's what she was trying to do. But she was subpoenaed to appear before this grand jury today. And when she arrived, she thought she would be talking about the evidence that she believes she has that Adam Schiff committed mortgage fraud. But instead, she was grilled by a prosecutor, an FBI agent, and another investigator about her communications with Bill Pulte and Ed Martin, her interactions with these other two guys that you mentioned, and whether anything inappropriate occurred. One of the issues would be if they were posing as federal investigators. That would be improper. But even more improper is what we were reporting, what we reported later in the day, which is they're investigating whether grand jury information was shared improperly with these two men and others in violation of Federal Law, Rule 6E. As you know, grand jury information is secret and has to be tightly held within an investigation. And what's so interesting about this is that, look, this is a Justice Department that appears to be investigating Donald Trump's political enemies and squashing investigations that he has in life. And yet here you have an investigation that's germinating into one of President Trump's darlings, Ed Martin, the head of his weaponization task force, and Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general, has allowed this to happen. It is happening in a grand jury in Maryland under the auspices of the U.S. attorney there. So that is extraordinary. How long it will be allowed to happen now that it's become public is.
- [42:32]
Chris Deluzio
Another question, Jen, that, that seems to be the core question. It's like one element of the DOJ investigating the other. As you've been reporting on today and as you've just explained now, there's a long way to go here, as you said, we'll see how long this lasts. Bill Pulte and Ed Martin could face criminal charges over this if they're indicted. No. What would that look like?
- [42:53]
Jen
Yeah, I mean, anything's possible. This is a very serious matter. This is a grand jury investigating their conduct, if they could be charged, and they'll have their day in court, if that's the way it goes. I mean, it's hard for me to believe, given everything that I've witnessed at this Justice Department, that the president, that Stephen Miller would allow that case to go forward. But the other dynamic that's going on here is that Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche we've known and we have reporting that they have qualms about some of these marginal cases, particularly these mortgage fraud cases where career prosecutors have come in and said there is no case here. And look, they saw what happened to Lindsey Halligan in court yesterday. That was an embarrassment for the entire Justice Department. And they know that Pam Bondi was the attorney general of Florida. Todd Blanche was a former Justice Department prosecutor. They know how this stuff works. They don't want to be admonished by federal judges. So it's possible that this is their way of trying to clean house again, whether it works, whether it survives the political wins now that Donald Trump knows about it. That's an interesting question.
- [43:55]
Chris Deluzio
Feels a little house of cards or something to me, Ken, we'll have to see. I know you're going to continue reporting on all of it. Thank you so much for being here with us. You bet.
- [44:03]
Jen
Thanks, Jen.
- [44:04]
Chris Deluzio
Okay, we got to sneak in a quick break, but Lawrence has the one and only Andrew Weissman standing by. And we'll be right back. That does it for me tonight. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on Ms. Now. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok holiday PSA from DSW. This is a reminder that shoes are a gift, literally. So unwrap something good, like boots that inspire your next big adventure or cozy slippers that give you an excuse to stay in or sneakers that feel like pure joy. Because shoes aren't just shoes, they're exactly what you wanted. Let us surprise you so you can surprise them. Find shoes that get you and everyone on your list at prices that get your budget at DSW stores or dsw dot com.