Trump nominees struggle to avoid saying true things that would upset Trump

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode: "Trump nominees struggle to avoid saying true things that would upset Trump"
Air Date: July 16, 2026
Host: Jen Psaki

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Briefing with Jen Psaki dives into the confirmation hearings for two of Donald Trump's high-profile nominees: Jay Clayton for Director of National Intelligence (DNI), and Todd Blanche for Attorney General. The central theme is the lengths to which Trump's nominees are forced to go to avoid expressing truths that might upset the former president—especially around issues of election interference, departmental independence, or Trump’s direct involvement in controversial decisions. Jen Psaki breaks down the hearings, calls out evasive answers, and is joined by key guests, including Senator Adam Schiff, former CIA Director John Brennan, and journalist David Rhode, to analyze the implications. The latter half of the episode transitions to public outrage over recent ICE shootings and the political fallout in Maine, concluding with a look at the state's Democratic Senate primary.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jay Clayton’s Evasive Confirmation Hearing

[00:50 – 06:25]; [24:01 – 24:36]

• Background: Jay Clayton, a highly credentialed lawyer, is nominated to replace Tulsi Gabbard as DNI—with little national security experience.

• Fulton County Raid: Clayton dodges repeated questions about his awareness of Tulsi Gabbard’s controversial presence at an FBI raid, and whether it was appropriate for the DNI to intervene at Trump's request.

  • Quote/Exchange:
    • Senator: "Are you aware that Director Gabbard was present at the Fulton county raid earlier this year? Yes or no? Are you aware?"
      Jay Clayton [02:46]: "I was."
    • When pressed, Clayton downplays prior knowledge: “It was the first time that in my recollection, I’ve thought about it recently.” (02:56)
    • On whether it would be appropriate to comply with Trump’s similar orders as DNI:
      Clayton [03:32]: “That’s a hypothetical.”
      Senator: “We all know it’s not appropriate.”

• Selective Amnesia: Psaki notes the selective loss of memory is a performance to appease Trump.

  • Psaki [03:39]: “Of course it’s not a hypothetical. I mean, it literally happened six months ago, and we have the pictures to prove it...he is just playing dumb here, because these are deeply uncomfortable topics to talk about.”

• Trump’s Election Conspiracies: The context for this avoidance is Trump’s continued obsession with refuting the 2020 election results, with a primetime address coming up.

• Handling Past Prosecutions: Clayton feigns ignorance about Trump’s pardon of convicted Honduran narco-trafficker Juan Orlando Hernandez, despite previously boasting of prosecuting him.

  • Quote:
    • Senator [06:05]: “Did the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump, pardon a convicted narco trafficker?”
    • Clayton: “Yes.”

2. Todd Blanche’s DOJ Confirmation: Loyalty Over Independence

[07:53 – 15:49]

• Trump’s Former Personal Attorney: Todd Blanche is up for Attorney General, with senators grilling him on DOJ independence.
• Refusal to Commit to Independence:
  • Blanche [07:58]: “The Department of Justice, like every single department in the executive, is part of the executive. I mean, Article 2 of the Constitution gives the power of the executive to President Trump.”
  • Pressed on Independence:
    • Senator: “So the Department of Justice should be independent or not?”
    • Blanche [08:11]: “If confirmed, I will be a member of the president’s cabinet...my obligation is the American people and the rule of law.”
• IRS Settlement Scandal:
  • Blanche is challenged by Senator Adam Schiff about an IRS/DOJ settlement that created a “slush fund” for Trump and granted broad immunity from audits.
    • Schiff [09:41]: “You made the decision to not defend the IRS and the Justice Department. You made the decision and said to sign this slush fund agreement.”
    • Blanche [09:49]: “We made the decision to settle the case. Correct?”
  • Psaki [09:54]: “Blanche won’t defend the country’s interest if it means saying no to Donald Trump. And it speaks to another telling moment...when Todd Blanche accidentally said the quiet part out loud.”
    • Are you and President Trump friends?
      • Blanche [10:22]: “I’m his lawyer. Was his lawyer.”
  • This slip betrays continued personal loyalty over institutional independence.
• Ongoing Conflict of Interest:
  • Replay from earlier hearing confirms Blanche never formally ended his attorney-client relationship with Trump (11:01).

3. Senator Adam Schiff Reaction & Broader Implications

[11:51 – 19:53]

• Schiff’s Assessment:
  • Schiff [11:51]: “Who do you represent? ... He has made it very clear he is still the president’s lawyer...He will go after the president’s enemies...He is there to be an instrument of Donald Trump’s will.”
• IRS Scandal Deep Dive:
  • Schiff details the dubious self-dealing and lack of transparency in Trump/Blanche’s IRS settlement—possibly violating legal ethics.
  • Possibility of bar discipline for Blanche, as he’s been referred to both the Florida and New York bar by a judge (14:43).
• Republican Lawmaker Response:
  • Senator Cornyn and others voiced concern during the hearing, but Schiff remains skeptical about actual follow-through (16:17).
  • Noted Blanche boasted at CPAC about firing officials who worked on Trump investigations.
• Jay Clayton: The Lesser Evil?
  • Debate on whether Clayton is preferable to extreme loyalists like Bill Pulte; Schiff dismisses Clayton as unwilling to “speak truth to power,” refusing to say who won the 2020 election (18:29).

4. Trump’s Upcoming Speech and Declassification Push

[22:04 – 32:31]

• Primetime Speech Preview:

  • Trump expected to again claim the 2020 election was stolen, using declassified intelligence to bolster conspiracies.
  • During confirmation, Clayton refuses to answer “Who won the 2020 election?” despite repeated questioning (24:01–24:36).

• Panel with John Brennan and David Rhode:

  • David Rhode [24:59]: Trump will allege Chinese interference, but there is no actual evidence of hacking or vote-tampering; prior intelligence reports found only influence operations, not direct fraud.
  • Rhode [26:04]: “If American intelligence agencies missed this giant interference by China, that would be the fault of his Director of National Intelligence...Bill Barr, his attorney general, said Joe Biden won the election. So I guess Bill Barr was hiding a Chinese plot to switch votes. But that's the tenor of what we're expecting.”
  • John Brennan [27:37]: “There was no evidence at all of any type of actual interference in the...vote tallies or the voting processes themselves.”
  • Brennan [29:44]: Warns selective declassification and misleading presentation of intelligence to fit Trump's narrative, referencing John Ratcliffe’s previous conduct.

• Tensions Within Team Trump:

  • Rhode details an internal White House struggle between conspiracy theorists (like John Solomon) and more reality-grounded advisers (31:11–31:59).

5. ICE Shootings — National Outrage and Political Fallout in Maine

[34:22 – 43:33]

• ICE Killings Spark Protests:

  • Massive rallies across the U.S. after two immigrants were killed by ICE during traffic stops in Texas and Maine.
  • Houston officials face strong public criticism; ultimately, mayor promises independent investigation, and Harris County pushes for witness protection visas.

• Trump Overrules ICE Moratorium:

  • Initial hope as ICE temporarily halts traffic stops, but Trump quickly reverses the decision via public statement (36:00–37:40).
  • Psaki: “The rug was pretty immediately pulled out from under her by Donald Trump because roughly 20 hours after the new ICE directive was announced, Trump posted online that quote, we cannot in all caps of course give up the traffic stop.” (37:40)
  • Trump praises ICE agents; Republicans like Susan Collins seen as “toothless, if not complicit.”

• Maine Democratic Senate Primary Sprint:

  • Devin Murphy Anderson (Exec. Director, Maine Democratic Party) on emergency mobilization to select a Senate nominee after ICE shootings escalate urgency against Susan Collins (39:24–43:33).
    • Over 4,000 verified as potential delegates, nearly 7,000 as voters.
    • Massive, inclusive, quick-turnaround process: “Most of us have spent more time sleeping on the floor of our offices, Jen, than we have in our own bed.” (Murphy Anderson [40:13])
    • New nominee to be selected soon via debates and caucuses.
    • ICE terrorizing immigrant communities, and Collins' record, now central issues.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Adam Schiff on Blanche's Loyalty:
  • “He is there to be an instrument of Donald Trump’s will—to protect him, use the law as a shield to protect him, and also as a sword to go after his enemies.” — Senator Adam Schiff [12:12]
• Jay Clayton on Gabbard’s Raid:
  • “It was the first time that in my recollection, I've thought about it recently.” — Jay Clayton [02:56]
• Psaki on Clayton’s Performance:
  • “He is just playing dumb here, because these are deeply uncomfortable topics to talk about.” — Jen Psaki [03:39]
• Blanche Accidentally Says the Quiet Part:
  • “I’m his lawyer. Was his lawyer.” — Todd Blanche on Trump [10:22]
• David Rhode on Conspiracy Claims:
  • “If American intelligence agencies missed this giant interference by China, that would be the fault of his Director of National Intelligence...Bill Barr, his attorney general, said Joe Biden won the election. So I guess Bill Barr was hiding a Chinese plot to switch votes.” — David Rhode [26:04]
• John Brennan on Declassification:
  • “What Donald Trump is trying to do is to use intelligence as a way to try to validate his claims. But again, no evidence that I’m aware of at all in terms of any type of actual impact on the outcome of our elections.” — John Brennan [29:44]
• Devin Murphy Anderson on Organizing Democrats:
  • “Most of us have spent more time sleeping on the floor of our offices, Jen, than we have in our own bed...[but] Mainers deserve a transparent and fair process, and we are dedicated to that.” — Devin Murphy Anderson [40:13]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Jay Clayton’s evasions at the DNI hearing: [00:50 – 06:25], [24:01 – 24:36]
• Todd Blanche’s DOJ confirmation, IRS settlement questioning: [07:53 – 15:49]
• Senator Adam Schiff interview and reaction: [11:51 – 19:53]
• Jay Clayton’s refusal to say who won the 2020 election: [24:01 – 24:36]
• Analysis with John Brennan & David Rhode on Trump’s speech and intelligence: [24:59 – 32:31]
• ICE shootings and Maine protest/political fallout: [34:22 – 43:33]
• Devin Murphy Anderson on Maine Democratic Senate nomination process: [39:24 – 43:33]

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Concluding Thoughts

This episode paints a bleak but sharply drawn picture of the current political atmosphere under Trump’s second term: government nominees contorting themselves to appease Trump, the blurring of lines between personal loyalty and public duty, and alarming efforts to undermine democratic guardrails through selective transparency and attacks on department independence. Meanwhile, public outrage continues to mount over aggressive and sometimes deadly immigration enforcement, with real electoral consequences playing out in places like Maine. Throughout, Jen Psaki and her guests maintain a tone that is both urgent and incredulous, balancing sharp critique with clear exposition aimed at an audience trying to make sense of increasingly abnormal times.

Transcript

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[Jen Psaki]

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[Jay Clayton]

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[Jen Psaki]

Okay? There are a lot of situations, to be fair, where sometimes it makes sense to play a little dub. We've all been there, right? A public job interview, though, is definitely not one of those situations. But that is exactly what we saw today at confirmation hearings for two of Donald Trump's nominees for very, very important government jobs. There was this guy, Jay Clayton. I just mentioned him. He is Donald Trump's pick to be the permanent replacement for Tulsi Gabbard as the Director of National Intelligence. And while his background may not include students in national security, which is typically quite an important part of the qualifications, it does include a lot of advanced degrees, like a law degree from the University of Pennsylvania, master's in economics from Cambridge. My point being, he's probably not an actual dummy. And honestly, even if he were a dummy, anyone up for confirmation to be DNI would expect he would be. Asked about this particular moment. We all remember this particular moment when Tulsi Gabbard stirred national outrage by showing up at the FBI raid of Fulton County, Georgia's elections office. And she was weirdly lurking behind pillars, too. But when Georgia's senator asked Jay Clayton about that moment, he decided to just play dumb.

[Senator or Questioner]

Are you aware that Director Gabbard was present at the Fulton county raid in Georgia earlier this year?

[Jay Clayton]

You. You discussed that with me yesterday in your office.

[Senator or Questioner]

Are you aware that Director Gabbard was present at the Fulton county raid earlier this year?

[Jay Clayton]

You brought it to me, my attention.

[Senator or Questioner]

What is going on here? You've said at the beginning of this, you have an obligation to be Honest and forthright with the committee. I'm asking a very simple question. Are you aware that Director Gabbard was present at the Fulton county raid earlier this year? Yes or no? Are you aware?

[Jay Clayton]

I was.

[Senator or Questioner]

You won't answer that question either?

[Jay Clayton]

I just said I was made aware of it by you yesterday.

[Senator or Questioner]

The first time you learned that Director Gabbard was present at that raid was in my office yesterday.

[Jay Clayton]

It was the first time that in my recollection, I've thought about it recently. Now, was I aware of it before?

[Senator or Questioner]

What? Are you aware that former Director Grabbard testified that her presence at the raid was, quote, requested by the President?

[Jay Clayton]

I'm not aware of that until now.

[Senator or Questioner]

If the White House Chief of Staff or the President asks you to travel somewhere across the United States and oversee the execution of a domestic search warrant on a sensitive election facility, will you do it? Is that appropriate? Is that appropriate for the Director of National Intelligence?

[Jay Clayton]

That's a hypothetical.

[Senator or Questioner]

We all know it's not appropriate. Senator Ossoff, your time. National Intelligence, sir.

[Jen Psaki]

Can I call you Jay? I mean, you know that you were there to testify for your own confirmation hearing, to be the dni, right? You're there of your own accord. Of course. It's not appropriate. And it's also not a hypothetical. I mean, it literally happened six months ago, and we have the pictures to prove it. Everybody in this country has seen these pictures. We know Trump wants his DNI to act as the chief election conspiracy investigator and hunt for bogus evidence that he won the 2020 election. That's what he wants. He is so obsessed with those election conspiracies that six years later, he's planning on giving a primetime address about it tomorrow night. But Jay Clayton, UPenn law degree graduate, wants to pretend he's just learning about all of this now, like he just woke up from a coma, got offered a job, and then accepted it without reading up at all about what his predecessor was up to in the job and not asking any questions about what that job would entail, including a confirmation hearing where you have to answer questions, apparently. And of course, he is just playing dumb here, because these are deeply uncomfortable topics to talk about. And I wish that was the only time that Jake Clayton decided to play dumb at his job interview today. But sadly, it was definitely not the only time. Now, before I show you this next clip, I want you to know that the job that Jay Clayton had before all of this was the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York and an office that handles some of the most High profile prosecutions in this country. Like, for instance, the 2024 drug trafficking prosecution of former Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernandez, who was pardoned by Donald Trump last year.

[Senator or Questioner]

Is it the case in the Juan Orlando Hernandez case that the President of the United States pardoned a man who had worked with the Sinaloa cartel to facilitate massive narco trafficking into the United States?

[Jay Clayton]

I don't remember the specifics of that case.

[Senator or Questioner]

He was convicted in your district.

[Jay Clayton]

He was convicted. I'm just. We convict a lot of people for a lot of drugs.

[Senator or Questioner]

Convicted of narco trafficking.

[Jay Clayton]

Yes, I believe.

[Senator or Questioner]

No. So at massive scale. Yes.

[Jay Clayton]

Well, you're telling me what I know. That's kind of. He was, I believe, Look, I'll take your word for it. He was a convicted narco trafficker.

[Senator or Questioner]

Did the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump, pardon a convicted narco trafficker?

[Jay Clayton]

I believe we just discussed that. The President provided a pardon.

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[Senator or Questioner]

Yes or no, did the President of the United States pardon a convicted narco trafficker?

[Jay Clayton]

Yes.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, I wanted to hide. During parts of this hearing, Jay Clayton really wanted to pretend that he knew nothing about that Trump pardoned convicted drug trafficker by the very same office he now leads. Which is also especially interesting given this is from a speech Jay Clayton gave less than a year ago while he was still working in that office and boasting about their accomplishments. Here's what it says. Quote, some examples of our most recent efforts include the successful prosecution of the former President of Honduras and other high level Honduran officials for narcotics trafficking right out of his mouth. Look, we all know the real reason for Jay Clayton's sudden bout of selective amnesia, you could call it Donald Trump. He knows that if he wants to stay in Trump's good graces, he cannot risk saying anything that would make the super sensitive president remotely cranky. And so he's acting like a scared child who's afraid of making daddy mad. And he was not the only grown man, though, putting on that kind of performance today. Because just down the hall, literally, Trump's former personal attorney, Todd Blanche, was also interviewing for his job to be permanently confirmed as Attorney General, a job that is supposed to include a degree of independence from the President. But Ty Blanch wouldn't even pretend that the DoJ would be independent of the White House. And outside of the President's gr,

[David Rhode]

is

[Jen Psaki]

the Department of Justice that you are

[John Brennan]

running independent from the White House.

[Todd Blanche]

The Department of Justice, like every single department in the executive, is part of the executive. I mean, Article 2 of the Constitution gives the power of the executive to President Trump.

[Senator or Questioner]

So the Department of Justice should be independent or not.

[Todd Blanche]

I think the as I said earlier, the Department of Justice is under the executive branch. If confirmed, I will be member of the president's cabinet. So absolutely my obligation is the American people and the rule of law.

[Senator or Questioner]

So we'll talk about that being said,

[Todd Blanche]

I am a member of the cabinet of the President of the United States.

[Senator or Questioner]

We'll talk about the if confirmed in a minute. But let me also point out, the Department of Justice own website states right on the homepage that what the department's core missions is independence and impartiality.

[Jen Psaki]

And that commitment to independence and partiality is not new. It's been at the center of the department's mission basically forever. But, of course, Blanche has already demonstrated that he is anything but independent from Donald Trump's influence, which is a big part of why Trump wants him there. He's already been reprimanded by a judge for his role in helping Donald Trump effectively settle a lawsuit against his own government. You know, the backroom deal to create a slush fund for the president's allies and also grant Trump and his family broad immunity from IRS audits. Today, Senator Adam Schiff pressed Todd Blanche about that settlement, asking why the Justice Department chose not to defend itself against Trump. Shoot. Sham lawsuit despite the many legal defenses that were available to them.

[Senator Adam Schiff]

Who said that? These defenses we're not going to accept. We're just going to go with the president's agreement and the slush fund, this immunity.

[Todd Blanche]

There was a lot of discussion internally,

[Senator Adam Schiff]

but you made the decision.

[Todd Blanche]

What's the decision? What do you mean?

[Senator Adam Schiff]

You made the decision to not defend the IRS and the Justice Department. You made the decision and said to sign this slush fund agreement.

[Todd Blanche]

We made the decision to settle the case. Correct?

[Senator or Questioner]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

Now it's clarifying, I guess you could say, to hear Todd Blanche sheepishly take responsibility for settling such a weak and frivolous lawsuit on terms so favorable to Trump. But that's the problem. Blanche won't defend the country's interest if it means saying no to Donald Trump. And it speaks to another telling moment from today's hearing when Todd Blanche accidentally said the quiet part out loud. Are you and President Trump friends?

[Todd Blanche]

I'm his lawyer. Was his lawyer.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm his lawyer. No, wait, wait. Hold on. I was his lawyer. Todd Blanche knows the reason that Trump chose his personal attorney to be his next attorney general. He knows that Trump wants Blanche to treat the Department of Justice like it's his own personal law firm. Trump's, that is. And while Blanche may have corrected himself there, we know that Todd Blanche has never stopped thinking of himself as Trump's personal attorney, even when he started working at the Department of Justice. Just consider this moment from Todd Blanche's first confirmation hearing to be deputy attorney general just one month into Trump's second term.

[Senator Adam Schiff]

Are you still Donald Trump's lawyer?

[Todd Blanche]

I mean, yes, my attorney client relationship with President Trump remains, yes.

[Jen Psaki]

People like Todd Blanche and Jay Clayton understand what Trump wants from them. And they seem very willing to embarrass themselves and Sullivan, their reputations and play dumb to give it to him, to keep these jobs. Are these jobs so great? That's always my question. But the big question is really, what happens now? What happens from here? Joining me now is someone who I'm sure has a lot of thoughts on that, Senator Adam Schiff of California. I, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, who was, of course, in that hearing with Todd Blanche today. So I just gave some highlights. There you were in the hearing pressing him today. What did you think of Todd Blanche's performance?

[Senator Adam Schiff]

Well, I think the central question the senators had for him, he didn't answer very well. And that is, who do you represent? Do you represent the American people as the attorney general is supposed to, or do you represent Donald Trump? Are you still his criminal defense lawyer? And he has made it very clear he is still the president's lawyer. He signs this settlement agreement which a judge just said was basically collusion and a fraud and just a pretense of some kind of a court proceeding to give a patina of respectability to something absolutely devoid of that. He's made it clear that he will go after the president's enemies. He's made it clear that he believes the president has not only the right, but the duty to go after his adversaries and abuse the Justice Department to do it. So he has basically made he is there to be an instrument of Donald Trump's will to protect him, use the law as a shield to protect him, and also as a sword to go after his enemies.

[Jen Psaki]

The IRS settlement is one of the things that you pressed him on today. And again, I know everybody's been following this very closely. You just mentioned it, too. But it's, of course, the IRS settlement that gives Trump his family members, their companies and affiliated individuals protection from audits, which is the key part here, part of the key part here. You also went back and forth with him about his inherent conflict is of interest, of course, as a Trump lawyer directing one arm of the executive branch to settle with another arm. Do you feel anything was resolved there? I'm sure you have many remaining questions, but what are they at this point?

[Senator Adam Schiff]

One thing I'd like to know is who wrote this agreement? Who wrote this tax giveaway for the President? I asked Blanche about it. It's his name that signed it. He couldn't tell us who wrote it. Now, he said he assumed it was written by a Department of justice lawyer, an IRS lawyer, but actually, when you look at the terms of it, it is so favorable to Donald Trump, you might surmise that it was actually written by his attorney, the person who is joined in filing the suit, the person who's now been referred to the Florida Bar association by that judge in. In Miami for potential disciplinary proceedings. That judge also referred Todd Blanche to the New York bar. But we don't know who wrote this thing. We don't know why Todd Blanche was the only one who signed it. The agreement from the day before was signed also by someone from the IRS and someone else from the Justice Department, but this alone had Todd Blanche's signature. So he's taken full ownership of this at one level and at another wants to deny any responsibility. I don't know who wrote this thing.

[Jen Psaki]

I know you've mentioned the. The referral to the New York Bar, which is really interesting for people out there who are just tuning into this. What could happen next? Could anything happen next with his law license, or what should we expect?

[Senator Adam Schiff]

Yes, New York could take his law license away, his ability to practice before the New York bar. It's one of the reasons why the Justice Department is trying to go after bar associations. They don't want anyone to be able to hold them to account. But when you take an oath before the bar, when you're sworn into the bar, you take an oath to practice law ethically. And judges can refer you to the bar association for an investigation when you don't. And here the judge was very explicit in very harsh language you don't often see in saying that basically this lawsuit by Trump was fraudulent to begin with. It's notable that the president didn't file this lawsuit against the IRS when he was a private citizen. No, he waited until he became president again. And even though the statute of limitations had passed, the department didn't defend itself, didn't even assert the statute of limitations. That's how frivolous and false this sham of an agreement was. It was basically Trump agreeing with Trump not to assert any defenses against Trump's suit against Trump.

[Jen Psaki]

It is, it is quite a thing. Every time I talk about it, it still blows my mind cuz it's just so ludicrous. It's happening. I know I was a bit struck. I'm not naive. You always bring me back down to earth too when I get a little optimistic. But I was a little struck by Cornyn's questioning during the hearing. He pushed him a bit during the hearing. What are you hearing, if anything, from your Republican colleagues about Blanche's testimony today?

[Senator Adam Schiff]

Well, look, I think they made it clear during the hearing, some of them, that they had concerns in particular about the tax, you know, inside deal, the self dealing instance between the president and the IRS and his lawyers. So there's been expressions of concern. But Jana, I will say we've seen lots of expressions of concern by my Republican colleagues, not just on the committee, but off the committee as well. And those expressions of concern aren't always followed by actual votes that really hold the administration to account. Now I hope this is the exception. I hope that the concerns that were expressed today and Senator Cornyn brought up the fact that Blanche purported to kill the slush fund on his own. If this was truly a negotiation between two different parties, as they claim, one party can't simply renounce a deal that was given to the other party unless in fact, Blanche was on both sides of that deal, which is really what took place here. But Cornyn seemed troubled by it. He should be troubled by it. I hope that Tillis is troubled by it. I hope that Tillis is troubled by it. The fact that core that Blanche went before cpac, this conservative convention, and bragged about firing all of the prosecutors and all the FBI agents that worked on any investigation involving his client, Donald Trump.

[Jen Psaki]

I hope they're more than I hope they're concerned enough to actually vote where their concern is. But we will certainly see, we will not hold our breath here. I know you were obviously in that hearing grilling Blanche. So you were not paying attention or you were not consuming in the same way the hearing with Jay Clayton. But you are the former ranking member on the House Intel Committee. You've expressed concern in the past about Jay Clayton's lack of intelligence background for this role. Is there. One of the things that I think is interesting that some Democrats have raised is that Jay Clayton might be a better option than Pulte, given Pulte is clearly under the kind of or under the control of Trump and is clearly pushing his conspiracies. Where do you come down on that? And have you made a decision about where you're gonna vote on Jay Clayton.

[Senator Adam Schiff]

Well, look, what they do is they set the bar so low, like Polti, this real estate guy, kind of a buffoon, really. They set the bar at Pulte. Isn't anyone better than Pulte? Shouldn't we just jump at Clayton because he's not Pulte? Clayton has very little experience, and as you saw today during the hearing, he couldn't even answer a basic question that would have required him to speak truth to power. He couldn't say who won the election because he knows Donald Trump doesn't want him to say that. If he can't say who won the election in 2020, how can we count on Jay Clayton to give it straight to the President, to Congress, when the intelligence might contradict what the President prefers? I mean, let's say there's intelligence that Iran is cheating on this deal, but the President doesn't want to believe it because he's telling the something. Otherwise, we need the Director of National Intelligence to both level the president, say, sir, I'm sorry, but we have strong intelligence the Iranians are cheating. Here's what it looks like. Here's our degree of confidence in it. We need them to brief Congress this way. And what we saw with Tulsi Gabbard is a willingness to manipulate the intelligence, to basically tell an intelligence council, no, I don't like that conclusion. Rewrite it and fire people who won't. That is the worst thing you could ask for in a Director of Intelligence. Clayton gave us no confidence that he would be any different than Gabbard.

[Jen Psaki]

This is where we are today. We're going to keep talking about this. We're also going to show those clips you just mentioned of him being unable to answer that particular question after the break. But Senator Adam Schiff, thank you as always, for joining us tonight.

[Senator Adam Schiff]

Thank you.

[Jen Psaki]

So, as the senators mentioned this question of who won the 2020 election, I mean, it's a very simple question, but Trump's pick for the country's top intel post couldn't bring himself to answer it. And he was given a lot of opportunities to do that. The reason might have something to do with a primetime speech Trump has planned for tomorrow night. But I'm going to discuss that with former CIA Director John Brennan and Ms. Now senior National Security reporter David Rhode after a very quick break.

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[Devin Murphy Anderson]

Let's check in on the SERTA Counting

[Jen Psaki]

Sheep why aren't we counting anymore?

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[Senator Adam Schiff]

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[Jen Psaki]

Tomorrow night in his primetime address, Donald Trump is widely expected to double down on his favorite false claim that the 2020 election was meddled with and stolen. And while he does not have a single ounce of credibility left in that department tomorrow night, we are also expecting him to use the most MAGA members of his intelligence team in an attempt to project credibility onto his conspiracies. And let me explain and we don't know what is going to be in the speech. This is based on what we know as of now. But Trump's nominee for Director of National Intelligence, Jay Clayton, was supposed to have his confirmation hearing a month ago, but Trump himself derailed it, delaying Clayton's confirmation to the permanent DNI position and buying time for his acting dni, a guy by the name of Bill Pulte. And you might know Pulte, we've talked about him a lot as the Trump loyalist who just proved assault in MAGA world by using one of the nation's housing agencies to target Trump's perceived enemies. And he gets a big bravo from magaworld for that. Well, yesterday, multiple individuals familiar with the process told my colleagues at msnow that part of what Pulte has spent his month as acting DNI doing is leading a push inside our nation's intelligence agencies to declassify intelligence documents related to our nation's elections, intelligence documents that President Trump is expected to release at some point tied to his primetime speech tomorrow night. Remember, the 2020 election has already been extensively reviewed by the intelligence community under both Trump and Biden, and no one has ever found any credible evidence that it was anything but safe and secure. So it's really worth noting that Whatever new evidence Trump may say he has tomorrow only materialized after he put one of his own loyalists in charge. And if that all wasn't alarming enough on its own today, Trump's nominee to permanently take the role of Director of National Intelligence, Jay Clayton, finally had his confirmation hearing. And he repeatedly refused to answer this very, very simple question.

[Senator Adam Schiff]

Who won the 2020 election?

[Jay Clayton]

I've answered that question. I'm not gonna get into that. This is like, I'm just not. I'm here to talk about my qualifications.

[Senator or Questioner]

Who won the.

[Jay Clayton]

You know, I'm not going to do this with you.

[Senator or Questioner]

Who won the 2020 election? I have answered the question. Answer it. What is your answer?

[Jay Clayton]

I've given you my answer.

[Senator or Questioner]

We know, you know, everybody in this room knows the truthful answer to that question. Why can you not give it?

[Jay Clayton]

I think I gave you the answer.

[Jen Psaki]

As I said before, the man has a lot of grief from you, Penn. He's not actually a dummy. Joining me now to discuss is former CIA Director John Brennan and Ms. Now National Security reporter David Rhode. Thank you both for being with us tonight. David, let me start with you because you and your team of excellent reporters here have been doing a ton of reporting on this. What did I get wrong there? What did I miss? What more do we know about the speech?

[David Rhode]

There's no final version of the speech, but as you said, Vaughn Hilliard, Jake Traylor and Laura Braun Lopez and I have been looking at this. What it seems like the president is going to do is claim that China had this very large effort to influence the outcome of the 2020 election. Elections. We know that. And the key thing here is it's an effort to influence the elections. That means use bots and false claims to, you know, shift public opinion on social media. On social media and all this stuff like that. There's no evidence that China actually changed any votes, that they hacked into voting machines and somehow changed vote tallies. And at the same. And this was. This has all been said in intelligence documents already. At the same time, Russia was running an influence operation to hurt. They didn't like Joe Biden because of the war in Ukraine. So there were various countries trying to influence operations. But there is no. And this is what, like, you know, viewers should look for. Is there actually any evidence that votes were changed in this speech? Tomorrow there'll be all this talk about that. John Ratcliffe now. And one thing to remember, too. Who was the President of the United states during the 2020 election?

[Jen Psaki]

Donald Trump.

[David Rhode]

If American intelligence agencies miss this giant interference by China. That would be the fault of his Director of National intelligence, John Ratcliffe, the director of the CIA now, and Gina Haspel, his director of the Central Intelligence Agency. And remember, Bill Barr, his attorney general, said Joe Biden won the election. So I guess Bill Barr was hiding a Chinese plot to switch votes. But that's the tenor of what we're expecting.

[Jen Psaki]

And 2016 and 2024, obviously, Trump was fine with when there were Democratic presidents.

[David Rhode]

When he wins, it's fair.

[Jen Psaki]

But it's interesting because there was initial thought because of what had came out of the White House in Trump's mout, he was going to spread this push this conspiracy on voting machines and votes being changed. And it doesn't sound like, at least from the reporting, that's what we're looking ahead to at this point.

[David Rhode]

He may claim that our voting machines are vulnerable, but there is no evidence in any, all these court cases, all these congressional investigations that a, that a voting machine was successfully hacked. And I just want to note which administration has slashed funding to increase the security of voting machines. Who gutted cisa, a government agency that was helping local election officials? The second Donald Trump administration. They have cut funding. They have made our voting machines, if they are less secure, this administration has made them worse.

[Jen Psaki]

Director Brennan, let me bring you into this. You are the only one of all of us who has overseen these type of assessments. You've looked at these assessments, you've looked at foreign influence. Tell us what your thoughts are on what we know as of right now about what could be in this speech and what could come after it.

[John Brennan]

Well, as David said, many of our presidential elections have been targets of interference by foreign adversaries, individuals and countries, whether it be the Russians, the Chinese, the Iranians and others trying to influence the perceptions and then ultimately the votes. But Whether it be 2016 or 2020, 2024, there was no evidence at all of any type of actual interference in the, the vote tallies or the voting processes themselves. And I think what Donald Trump is going to do tomorrow is release a lot of documents that, you know, might talk about how the Chinese or the Russians or especially the Chinese, were attempting to influence votes, but again, no evidence at all that it actually resulted in that. When we did the assessment back in 2016, 2017, about Russian interference on behalf of Donald Trump, we made no, had no analysis that there was any type of impact on the election itself. We just said the Russians were trying to do this and we needed to be wary and very concerned about it, and we need to take steps to prevent it in the future. So I don't know what he's going to release tomorrow, but as you well know, Jen, the intelligence community vacuums up a lot of intelligence, a lot of information. Some of it very accurate, reliable, and some of it is the source from fabricators. And the intelligence community's, you know, responsibility is to weed out the wheat from the chef. And so who knows what Donald Trump is going to put out there tomorrow. But again, I would take it with a heavy, heavy dose of salt in terms of any type of claim about the ability of foreign actors to actually change the outcome of any of our elections.

[Jen Psaki]

I think that's a really important point as people are consuming this to know. And so I'd love to ask you more about this. The raw intelligence data. We don't know exactly what he's going to release, but if he's releasing a range of sort of reporting out there, intelligence assessments, intelligence gathering about China's influence, there's a reason, because they're going to make the case. This is transparency. Right. But explain to viewers the reason why that type of stuff isn't just released in like a mass bulk, if that potentially happens.

[John Brennan]

Yeah, because again, the responsibility of telescopes community is to go through this and to make sure that there's not going to be misleading information that goes out. Back in 2020, when, as David pointed out, John Ratcliffe was the Director of National Intelligence, he put out very selective bits and pieces of intellig that were selectively redacted to give a misleading impression of what was going on. So you can take these intelligence reports, comb through them, pull out things that may be of very unreliable nature and sources, and then again selectively redact things to again, give a misleading and wrong impression about what happened. And so I think what Donald Trump is trying to do is to use intelligence as a way to try to validate his claims. But again, no evidence that I'm aware of at all in terms of any type of actual impact on the outcome of our elections.

[Jen Psaki]

David, let me ask you, I mean, these speeches can change right? Over the next 24 hours. We'll see what is your. The other piece about this that you've done some reporting on is sort of the division within Trump's team, some who are pushing for different things pushing and some I'm sure he's relying on more than others, cuz they're telling him what he wants to hear. Tell us a little bit about more about that breakdown and how what you're watching for in terms of what could influence what we actually see tomorrow night.

[David Rhode]

So there is a division, essentially. John Solomon, who's a journalist, he's been on Fox News in many places and pushed many conspiracy theories, is now part of this task force at the White House that's combing through intelligence documents and deciding what to release. He's pushing some conspiracy theories that other people currently in the Trump administration do not agree with, with conspiracy theories about vote totals actually being changed. And other officials are saying, no, there's no evidence of that. So it's. There is a power struggle going on inside the administration in terms of what he actually says and how far he goes. Because if he goes too far, you know, one of the scenarios is he could just get up there and declare, we should not use X kind of, I'm not going to name a company this kind of voting machine. He has no power to do that.

[Jen Psaki]

States run the elections.

[David Rhode]

States run the elections. That is a violation. The founders did not want presidents controlling how votes are counted because then the president can decide whether he gets or she gets reelected. So, you know, he may make a declaration like that, but he does not have that power. And there again, is no proof of any kind of voting machine that's ever been successfully hacked where vote tallies have gone on. So you've got part of the White House who's saying, you know, we can do better on elections, and there's things he can say and then another side that's pressuring him to just go all in on conspiracy theories.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, this is all good prep for whatever crazy speech we're going to hear deliver tomorrow night, at least. Director Brennan, thank you as always. David, thank you so much for sharing all your reporting, too. All right, up next, as outrage grows over ICE agents shooting immigrants during traffic stops, the one guy with the power to turn down the temperature is sitting in the White House, and he seems to continue to do the exact opposite it. We'll talk about that next.

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[Devin Murphy Anderson]

Let's check in on the SERTA counting sheep.

[Jen Psaki]

Why aren't we counting anymore?

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We'll never get counted again.

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[Senator Adam Schiff]

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[Jen Psaki]

Over the past week, Americans have taken to the streets in a steady drumbeat of protests in response to the tragic shootings of two immigrants at the hands of ICE agents in Texas and in Maine. In addition to big rallies in New York City, Boston and Los Angeles, they've been all over the country day in and day out. Hundreds of people have gathered in Biddeford, Maine and Houston, Texas, where both of the shootings took place during traffic stops. Houston residents are calling on their local leaders to stand up and do something in the face of Trump's draconian immigration enforcement. And yesterday, over 100 people signed up to speak before Houston Mayor John Whitmire and a slate of council members, and they did not mince words. Before I get started, if you believe

[David Rhode]

in justice for Lorenzo, stand up right now.

[Jen Psaki]

I want you to see this council.

[Devin Murphy Anderson]

It's deeply upsetting that the city of Houston has not taken a stronger stance against ice.

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We are being punted like dogs. We are getting killed, and no one is doing anything.

[Devin Murphy Anderson]

We don't want ice.

[Jen Psaki]

We want justice.

[David Rhode]

Without the facts and without the truth

[Jen Psaki]

from our local trusted authorities, how can we prevent this from happening again?

[Senator Adam Schiff]

Now, you say you want accountability for ICE. I'm skeptical. Prove me wrong, Mr. Mayor.

[Jen Psaki]

Now, Houston leaders are somewhat limited, to be fair, in how they can fight back against ice. However, after facing a great deal of pushback, the city's mayor is committed to launching an independent investigation into last week's killing in their city. And Harris county prosecutors are actively seeking new visas for the three immigrants who witnessed the shooting and who now, of course, face deportation. At this point, there is only one person who can substantially reverse course and end ISIS tyranny. And unfortunately, that person is Donald Trump. And if Trump's recent actions indicate anything, it's that he plans to do no such thing. For example, there was a glimmer of hope this week when it was reported that ICE was halting low level traffic stops until further notice. Republican Senator Susan Collins of Maine, who is fighting tooth and nail to keep her seat this November, took credit of course for this decision, saying that it was she who spoke with DHS Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen and urged him to cease all non urgent vehicle stops. And regardless of whether or not her calls were actually a factor there. And we don't know the answer to that, that the rug was pretty immediately pulled out from under her by Donald Trump because roughly 20 hours after the new ICE directive was announced, Trump posted online that quote, we cannot in all caps of course give up the traffic stop. NBC News reported today that this statement surprised even the most senior ICE officials who had to quickly reverse course. But again, none of this is surprising. After ICE agents killed those two fathers, Trump offered nothing but praise, noting how the men and women of ICE are doing a great job that needs to be done. There's palpable and growing outrage over these shootings. Voters in states like Texas and Maine want their leaders to do something to protect their communities from ice. Of course they do. And Republicans like Susan Collins are left looking pretty toothless, if not complicit. So the question is how will Democrats respond and how will the next Democratic candidate who will soon run against Collins choose to take a stand on this issue? Thankfully, my next guest is the perfect person to ask about this and what is going on there as well. Devin Murphy Anderson is the Executive Director of the Maine Democratic Party and she joins me next. Hopeful is vying to replace Graham Platner and Maine Democrats dead Sprint effort to nominate a new Senate candidate had until 5pm today to make it official and as of Tonight there are 12 contenders. The more high profile candidates include Maine secretary of state, 2026 gubernatorial candidate and 2014 Democratic Senate nominee Shana Bellows, former Maine state senator and 2026 gubernatorial candidate Troy Jackson, and 2026 Maine gubernatorial candidate Dr. Nirav Shah. Tomorrow night all 12 candidates are expected to participate in a televised debate. With more possible last minute debates in the works, it's a mad dash to pick Susan Collins challenger by July 27, the official deadline to select a Democratic nominee and that is just three weeks away. Joining me now is the person who is somehow overseeing how to put all this together on such a short timeline with a huge great deal of grace and confidence, the Executive Director of the Maine Democratic Party, Devin Murphy Anderson. Devin, thank you so much for being here with me tonight. Let me just start by asking you. Maine Democrats who are interested in running to become a delegate or alternative for the 25th convention had until today at 5pm to register, I believe, if that's correct. Do you know yet how many people have registered to try to be delegates, how many Democrats you're expecting at the county caucuses coming up this weekend?

[Devin Murphy Anderson]

I do, John, and thanks so much for having me. So we actually are so proud to say that over 4,000 Maine Democrats have actually been verified as a five piece this evening to be a delegate and participate in county meetings this weekend. Now, that overall total number is close to 7,000 Maine Democrats who have been verified to either be a delegate or also be a voter. And so those voters will vote in the county meetings in all 16 counties this weekend on July 18th and 19th to select their delegates.

[Jen Psaki]

I can't even emphasize enough how quickly you all had to put this together. It usually takes months for people, if not longer, to plan for caucuses and these type of meetings. How are these weekends going to be conducted? How will it work? Just so people who are watching this closely understand?

[Devin Murphy Anderson]

So the first thing to note is that this is one of the most inclusive, transparent, fair processes that we've ever seen a state party put forth under these unique circumstances. We have got an incredible team of staff and volunteers who quite literally have been working 20 hours a day for the past 10 days straight. And most of us have spent more time sleeping on the floor of our offices, Jen, than we have in our own bed. But we've been pushing so hard because Mainers deserve a transparent and fair process, and we are dedicated to that. So this weekend, in all 16 counties, we are going to have Maine Democrats participate in county meetings to elect their delegates. And what I can also say is that you're right. This is a huge operation. This is a massive lift, and it's going to take a lot of resources. So if people want to get involved and to help support from every corner of this country, you can go to maindems.com

[Jen Psaki]

at the end of this, which is not that long from now, there's going to be a Democratic nominee for Senate. And I think a lot of people, I mean, Susan Collins is somebody a lot of people watching would love to defeat come November. What are gonna be the biggest challenges? I assume it's name recognition, it's organizing, it's resources. What are the biggest challenges that this person is gonna face?

[Serta Advertiser]

Face?

[Devin Murphy Anderson]

Well, here, this is What I want to start with Jen, which is that here on the ground, our hearts are breaking. We just had a member of our community be brutally murdered in cold blood in front of his three year old daughter by ICE agents. And we saw this winter as ICE was descending upon communities in Minnesota and across this country, they were also descending here in Maine and they were targeting our immigrant communities as well. And Susan Collins, as she watched mass federal agents terrorize our communities, she did nothing. She stood by Donald Trump and she stood by ice and she handed them a blank check to do whatever they wanted with with no account. That is where her loyalty lies. So I can tell you that after this week, the stakes of this race are really, really high and the heat has been turned up. And she's scared, and she should be scared. Her approval ratings are lower, are lower than she's ever had in her entire career. She spent the last 30 years betraying us Mainers at every single turn. And so our candidates that are going through this rigorous two week process are collecting signatures. Those signatures have required not just 500 statewide, but at least 50 signatures from eight of our 16 counties, which forces them to organize statewide. Those signatures are due at midnight on Monday. They're also hosting town halls and the debates that you talked about. The media outlets are helping them host that as well. And they are fundraising. And that is what is going to take to have a formidable campaign that will defeat Susan Collins in November.

[Jen Psaki]

It sounds like, and this is what I was gonna ask you too. And we unfortunately don't have too much time left that the issue of course, of ICE and their terrorizing of communities, including in Maine, has just become front and center again to this race, which is an important part of what people should really be paying attention to. Devin, you have been kind of launched into the front and center role here, explaining it to people publicly, getting a process under control, sleeping on your office floor. I hope people send you coff and all sorts of things you need. Thank you for being here and explaining it all to us and thank you for really helping take charge of this in a really challenging moment in the state.

[Devin Murphy Anderson]

Thank you so much for having us, Jen and Big shout out to the team and all the supporters across the country who have helping and make this possible for us.

[Jen Psaki]

Absolutely. They're very important, central to it all. We've got to take a very quick break. Lawrence, has Senator Mark Kelly standing by. I'm sure he has lots of thoughts on the hearings today. We'll be right back. Okay. There's something new and I think really exciting on the horizon for Ms. Now. And I'm really excited about it personally. I'm going to be heading to Texas, the epicenter of political action for the midterms, to meet with all of you in September. And a whole bunch of us. It's not just me, a whole bunch of us, including Rachel Maddow and Lawrence o', Donnell, everybody you see on that screen. We'll head to Arlington, Texas for an Ms. Now live event on Saturday, September 26th.

[Serta Advertiser]

6th.

[Jen Psaki]

We're going to talk to newsmakers, to each other with all of you. So if you want to go, if this seems fun to be a part of this community in person, scan that QR code on your screen to grab some tickets. I'm going to see you there. That does it for me tonight. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on Ms. Now. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok.

[Senator Adam Schiff]

Talk about regrets.

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