Eric Holder (3:16)

about lowering energy prices and an incredibly

David Remnick (3:19)

successful record in doing that.

Jen Psaki (3:22)

It's been really tough for their administration, these rising gas prices that they caused by this war. I mean, again, that was Chris Wright telling the Fox News audience that they've been incredibly successful at lowering prices as they roll a graphic showing the national average for a gallon of gas has climbed to $4.55. So that's one option, one messaging approach. What else you got? Isn't there a former reality TV star in charge of the Transportation Department? We could talk to your message to the everyday driver, those who are considering a summer vacation right now, but we're kind of on the fence. Listen, I think you've seen, again, a president who is willing to address a nuclear Iran. Sorry, son, we can't afford to go to Six Flags this summer. That's okay, dad. At least we have a president who's willing to address a nuclear Iran. Is that how you think it's going to go? Road rule, Sean? Maybe. Who knows? Maybe that's what he thinks. There's got to be something better they can come up with. How about Trump's perpetually optimistic economic advisor, Kevin Hassett? Surely he can put a brighter spin on all this, right?

John Brennan (4:34)

Credit card spending is through the roof. They're spending more on gasoline, but they're

Jen Psaki (4:37)

spending more on everything else, too. Sure, gas is expensive, everyone. But think about all the other fun things that are also more expensive. And running up your credit card bill. Hooray again. I don't know who's going to buy that. Like no one. Look, the Trump administration is in a real bind here because of course, there's no good way to spin the high costs caused by Trump's war. And despite what they've been saying, it doesn't look like the underlying cause behind the spike in gas prices. The war in Iran Trump started is going to end anytime soon. Now, as I mentioned today, the US And Iran started exchanging missile fire again, the second time in as many weeks that this ceasefire has suddenly reverted to to military action. And despite that, the Trump administration is trying to claim that the ceasefire is still in place and the war has not restarted. So, yeah, missiles are flying in both directions, but not in the war kind of way, I guess, is their argument. Now, this happened on the same day we woke up to reporting from the Washington Post that Iran could wait wait out the U.S. s blockade for another three to four months before they suffer any real economic hardship. Which to go back to where we started, leaves plenty of time for gas prices to keep climbing. All of this has led to Trump spiraling downward in the polls as he continues to also lose his grip on power. And it's hard to think back to a time when he did seem to have some power, to a time when he did seem to strike a little fear in anyone who opposed him. But remember that just a year ago, everyone from big law firms to elite universities to major media organizations were lining up to bend the knee to Trump, carving, caving at the first sign of pressure from this president. But these days, everybody seems to realize not just how important it is to stand up to this administration, but in some ways, how easy it is. Take a federal appeals court heard today. They heard arguments in the case over whether Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth can strip Senator Mark Kelly of his Navy rank and pension just for telling US Service members to follow the law. The judges in that case appear likely to side with Senator Kelly, who did not seem at all intimidated by the Hegseth idiotic threats.

John Brennan (6:50)

The president and the Secretary of Defense

Jen Psaki (6:52)

picked the wrong guy because when it

John Brennan (6:58)

comes to our most fundamental rights, I

Jen Psaki (7:01)

will not back down. That's consistently been his message from the beginning. And Senator Kelly is far from the only one who doesn't seem to be intimidated by these guys. Yesterday, we learned that Trump's FBI Director, Kash Patel, had launched an investigation focused on journalist Sarah Fitzpatrick after she reported out a bombshell story revealing Patel's alleged abuse of alcohol. And what did Sarah Fitzpatrick and the Atlantic, where she works, do? Did she crawl into a ball and hide under her desk? Nope. On the same day we got news of that investigation, she published another explosive story about Kash Patel's personalized stash of branded bourbon. It's quite a read. And now Patel is reportedly having a paranoid meltdown inside FBI headquarters. I'll have plenty more on that a little bit later. We'll talk more about that then. There was Donald Trump's demand this morning that Democratic House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries faced criminal charges a few years ago, maybe even last year. That kind of unhinged behavior might have been met with shock and outrage and unprecedented breach of constitutional norms, which of course it is. But these days, Democratic leaders are responding to Trump's threats with, well, a bit of a yawn.

Jimmy Uso (8:14)

The Knicks are up 2 zip. I'm feeling good, and then I gotta wake up this morning and deal with another deranged rant from an out of control president threatening to criminally prosecute me. You ain't intimidating a damn person. What's wrong with you, bro? Why do I stay on your mind?

Jen Psaki (8:37)

See, nobody. Did he sound intimidated by Trump's threats? Nobody seems intimidated by Trump's threats anymore. I mean, Trump's prosecution of James Comey over his seashells post has become basically the laughingstock of the Internet. And more of Trump's targets for prosecution, like John Brennan, continue to speak out. He's going to join me here later this hour. And remember Trump's renewed calls for Jimmy Kimmel to be taken off the air. They haven't elicited so much as a flinch from the execs over at ABC Disney. Everybody is pushing back on Trump and his agenda right now. And I mean everybody, even Mother Nature seems to be sending a pretty clear message right now. Just take a look at this photo on your screen taken inside the Alabama State House last night. Now, that brown liquid you see slowly filling the hallway like the Titanic is floodwater. Yesterday, a severe weather system complete with flash floods and tornadoes swept across the state of Alabama. Yet remarkably, those dire conditions did not stop the Republican controlled legislature who were hell bent on jamming through a measure to redraw Alabama's congressional maps and further reduce Democratic representation in the state. And yes, they voted to do all of that under a tornado watch during a literal flood, all while the building's emergency sirens blared overhead, which you can literally hear in this video. Do you hear those sirens? So all this mayhem. Of course, it was only after, only after Alabama Republicans approved their plan to redistrict that the entire building was finally evacuated. Look at that. I mean, the desperate last minute push through alarms and a very clear actual emergency. It's all just a little too on the nose, don't you think? So one can argue that Mother Nature herself may have been sending a little bit of a message to those legislators. And it appears she was not alone, because dozens of people, you can see them on your screen right now, gathered today at the Capitol in Montgomery to protest how Republicans there are trying to strip away black representation. We know you want us to leave, they said, but we shall not be moved. This is the people's House. We built this house. And that's pretty powerful. But it's not just happening in Alabama. These were the scenes today inside the Tennessee State House in Nashville, where just hours ago, the Republican majority passed their new gerrymandered congressional map, officially erasing Tennessee's lone majority black district. Now, some Tennessee Republicans made it abundantly clear exactly who they were doing this for. You see him? Yeah, he's got a Trump flag cape going on there. But Tennessee Democrats showed that they weren't going to cower from the fight. Moments from the Tennessee House. Moments before the Tennessee House voted on the new Republican maps, as protesters yelled from the gallery, Tennessee Democrats stood up side by side and linked arms with one another. So while they didn't have the legislative power to stop their maps from turning completely red, they did send a message. Look at them on that screen right on your screen right there. Not just to the people of Tennessee, but people across the south who live in red states and whose voting power is being eroded. Now, to put a fine point on it, after the vote, Tennessee State Representative Justin Jones, a Democrat, left the chamber, held up an image of the Confederate flag and burned it. Another Democrat, you can see that on your screen right now, too. Another Democrat, State Representative Justin J. Pierson, who's running in a primary for that congressional seat, who was running in it that Republicans eliminated today, called out exactly what the legislature did today in a statement saying in part, today's vote to redraw the congressional districts in Tennessee set our state back over 150 years. It was a political lynching that violated the rights of every Tennessean. Meanwhile, Republicans in Tennessee's neighbor to the south, Mississippi, are planning their own vote to redraw and rig their congressional maps in the same building where Mississippi lawmakers voted to secede from the Union in 1861 in an effort to continue enslaving black people and where they met to enshrine Jim Crow laws after the Confederacy lost the Civil War. And it's not like this place just so happens to be where modern day Mississippi lawmakers usually meet. This building, the old Capitol, is now a museum. It is no real legislative use anymore. But Mississippi Statehouse Republicans are convening there for a special session later this month to redraw their state Supreme Court districts, reportedly because of renovations at the current Mississippi Capitol building, where the state Senate will be meeting at the same time on the same issue. It's a little shady at best. None of this is subtle, but everything I just described is why it is so important that states led by Democrats continue to fight back. If we have learned one thing during the course of this administration, it's that sitting back and doing nothing is simply not an option. And in case you were getting yourself up to speed on what is possible, and I was just talking with Chris about this, and I'm certainly doing that, there are states like Colorado, where Democrats maintain a trifecta on the state level and where activists right now are working to present voters with a redistricting ballot measure this November. There's also New York, which is trying to do the same, but for next year. New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill has also said her Democratic supermajority may soon look to redistrict. Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker has signaled he would do the same. But I'm also looking at you, Maryland, where despite Governor Westmore's support, the redistricting effort has largely stalled because the Senate president has stood in the way and continues to as far as of this night tonight. Now, my first guest tonight served as the attorney general under President Obama. And in response to today's news of Tennessee, he framed this fight ahead like make no mistake, this fight will be hard, it will be long, and there will be setbacks as well as many victories. Martin Luther King, Jr. Once said, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. But the arc does not bend on its own. It's now on us again to do the necessary work to pull that arc towards justice to together. Joining me now is former U.S. attorney General Eric Holder. He's now the chairman of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee. It's great to see you. I have been looking forward to talking to you for some time now, but certainly since the Supreme Court ruling last week. And let me start by asking you about the movement by all these Republican legislators I just tried to outline in states like Mississippi and Alabama and Tennessee. And we knew Republican governors and legislatures in the south would move quickly after the Supreme Court court decision. But tell me how you've been digesting what we have seen happen over just the last week since the decision.

Eric Holder (15:06)

Well, the unbelievably bad decision from The Supreme Court in the Calais case allowed these states to do exactly what it is that they're doing. But what they're doing demonstrates the very need for the continuation of the efficacy of the Voting Rights act and in particular section 2. If section 2 was still a viable piece of legislation, we wouldn't have these states going into special session and stripping from black and brown people, and particularly in the South, African American people, their rights to participate fully in our democracy. You know, the Voting Rights act was put into place to give African Americans in the south the ability to be full citizens. And what these state legislatures are in the process of doing is turning back the clock to a pre1965America. And that's something that we have to fight. I'm bound and determined to do it. Exactly that.

Jen Psaki (15:59)

So let's talk about that. Because right after Tennessee passed its newly gerrymandered map today, the NAACP filed an emergency petition to stop it. It's going to be one of many legal challenges as this Republican last second gerrymander push plays out in the immediate short term, what recourse can be found in state and federal courts? And I ask this, it's so important because I think it's demoralizing to see what's happening. So what can happen in federal and state courts here?

Eric Holder (16:27)

Yeah, I think we're going to have to look largely to the state courts to try to determine how we push back against this on the legal front. But the reality also is that we underestimate the power that we have as so called ordinary American citizens. What I like to call extraordinary ordinary American citizens. We have to remember that in our history, the great social movements that this nation has put together and that changed this nation was as a result of the people, ordinary people, getting involved, suffragettes demanding the right to vote for women, black and white kids going down south and ripping down a system of American apartheid. Just recently, extraordinary ordinary Americans in Minneapolis, kicking DHS and ICE out of Minneapolis. All of this happened because the people got together and decided we're not going to stand for the policies that this administration is going to put into place. Now it's going to take some time. It'll take some time. And people certainly have to vote. People have to organize. People need to ask themselves individually what is it that I can do to push back against that which they are trying to do. And if each of us does that, if each of us is prepared to commit ourselves to that cause, we can be as successful as other generations have been in the protection and the enhancement of our democracy.

Jen Psaki (17:38)

It's such a moment. I think people will be telling their grandchildren about where they were or maybe their great grandchildren. Let me ask you about another development. The Republican governor of Louisiana, of course, declared a special emergency to halt the state's congressional primary election so Republicans can implement a new map. Thousands of voters had already cast their ballots. There's obviously a lot of litigation around that. But you think about this a lot, both the legal possibilities, the political possibility. Is this a precedent that we should be worried about down the road? I mean, leading up to this November past, this November canceling elections?

Eric Holder (18:15)

I should say, Yeah, I think that this is something that we ought to be very concerned about. This is tampering in an election process in the most gross of ways. I mean, an election was already underway in Louisiana. About 42,000 people had already cast their votes. And then the governor declares an emergency. Now, first off, the governor can't declare an emergency in the way that he's trying to do. The Louisiana state constitution says only the legislature can make decisions about the timing of elections. But he declares an emergency. I'm not exactly sure what the emergency was. And then he halts the election. It's almost as if you're in an election and you look at the polls and you make the determination. Well, you know, if we hold the election right now, we, we're not going to do too well. So let's postpone it until we can get to a better time and perhaps enhance our chances of winning. And that's in essence what the governor has done. He's now been supported or will be supported by the Republican dominated legislature there. And the impact will be to draw maps that will strip away from African Americans in Louisiana, rights for which they have fought for so long, rights that they had only granted to them by the Supreme Court just a couple of years or so ago. Again, a reversion back to that which is a dark chapter in American history.

Jen Psaki (19:30)

I mentioned a couple of the states that where there is potential for action in the past, I should just note, you have advocated, as many people have and as we all should, to adopt independent redistricting committees. Many of us would love to see something like the John Lewis Voting Rights act pass, of course. But in the short term, as people out there are trying to educate themselves, inform themselves, and kind of where there are states, which states they should be watching or looking to, where action to redraw maps could happen to try to level the playing field. What are you watching most closely? What should people out there be paying attention To.

Eric Holder (20:06)

Well, I mean, the states that you talked about, you know, Colorado, Illinois, New Jersey, New York, potentially Maryland, you know, in whatever other states that we can look at and see where there are possibilities of redrawing maps to make sure that we respond to that which the Republicans have done. And people need to understand this. We wouldn't be in this crisis but for the way in which Donald Trump, Donald Trump initiated it. He was the one who started this whole thing by saying he needed five seats out of Texas. And I think they expected us, that is progressives, people who care about our democracy, Democrats, to simply say, well, you know, I'll go on television and I'll bemoan the fact that what they did, I'll write an op ed. And my determination, I think the determination of many of us was that, no, we're going to fight back. You know, we have to deal with this crisis that they have presented us with and make sure that we win in this crisis so that ultimately we can heal our democracy. And healing the democracy, I think ultimately is going to call, is going to mean that we're going to have to pass federal legislation to ban partisan and racial gerrymandering. But to get to that point, we have to make sure that we save our democracy so that we have the capacity to do that. You know, people need to understand, we need look at history. You know, authoritarianism rose in Europe in the early part of the 20th century, not because authoritarianism was strong, but because the defense of democracy was weak. And we cannot repeat that mistake. The risks are entirely too high.

Jen Psaki (21:34)

We have to take a very quick break, but stay right where you are. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time tonight. I have to ask you, I just want to ask you after the break about Trump's FBI director, Cash Patel, and a long list of news that's been breaking. Given your history in law enforcement, your understanding how that bureau works, and we got new reporting tonight. You may have seen that Patel has ordered polygraph tests for more than two dozen members of his team. And I'm just gonna. We're gonna talk about that after a break.

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Jen Psaki (22:25)

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Jen Psaki (23:35)

Right now Donald Trump's FBI director Kash Patel is being buried under a mountain of embarrassing and damning new reports. Yesterday the Atlantic reported that he has his own personalized bourbon stash and in one instance he reportedly brought a case to a training seminar at the FBI's training facility where at one point a bottle went missing which caused him to, quote, lose his mind. According to the reporting, Patel then began threatening to polygraph and prosecute staff over the missing bourbon bottle. The FBI told the Atlantic this was all false. Well, today EMIS now has new reporting that there is actually an insane amount of polygraphing happening. Just this week, Patel ordered the polygraphs for more than two dozen members of his team, according to this reporting, in an attempt to catch whoever is talking about him to the media. We are back with former U.S. attorney General Eric Holder. I try as often as I can to remind people watching or try to inform on what is normal and what is not normal. And I think we know a lot of Kash Patel's behav is not normal. But this reporting on the polygraph tests being used across the FBI, a law enforcement agency that is full of non political career servants trying to keep our country safe. I just wonder what goes through your mind when you hear that.

Eric Holder (24:52)

Well, first off, to echo what you said, Jen, this is not normal. And the American people need to understand that. These are people at the FBI, at the Justice Department who dedicate their careers to this nation, the protection of people in this this nation. The FBI is one of our premier national security agencies in addition to everything else that it does. And to have an FBI director who apparently does not trust the people in the FBI. And I suspect the people in the FBI probably do not trust him as well. For him to polygraph people on the bases that have been reported is extremely disturbing, and I think ought to cost him his job. I mean, I think he was qualified for the job going in. And all the reports that we have seen since he became FBI director have confirmed my belief that he. He wasn't qualified to do the job. I mean, you know, the sight of him in the Olympics, you know, slogging down beer when he's supposed to be in Milan on a business trip, the reports now about having some bourbon branded in his name, I mean, these are all things inconsistent with what we would expect to have a competent FBI director do. And the conduct that he's engaging in, the polygraphs that he is. He's making people go through, is unbelievably abnormal. And I would think disqualifying.

Jen Psaki (26:09)

One of the things that is so striking, or has been striking to me, is that while Kash Patel is desperately trying to crack down on leaks, as we've just been talking about, people inside the FBI continue sharing information with reporters. And it's not out of maliciousness or anything like that. I mean, one of the things that Sarah Pizzpatrick, who wrote some of these stories for the Atlantic, shared with me is that some of the things, what they've been sharing is that they basically have grave concern about our national security under Kash Patel's leadership, and that is why they felt the need to share this information and share these stories. It seems like you share that, although you tell us what you think and also tell us how unique it is or rare it is for FBI officials, many, many sources, to be sharing this kind of information with reporters.

Eric Holder (27:01)

It's unbelievably abnormal, again, to have this kind of interaction between the FBI and reporters about these kinds of things, these personnel things, for lack of a better term, these are really patriotic people, again, dedicating their lives to the protection of the nation. And I think they've made the determination that they are more concerned about the leadership of the FBI and the need to perhaps change the leadership of the FBI if they're going to be able to be in a position to do that which the American people expect of the FBI. These are patriots. These are people who believe in this nation. They believe there are certain ways in which FBI agents, FBI leadership, is supposed to conduct itself. And I'm sure they're appalled by what it is that they have seen, by what it is that they have heard. And I think they've made what, for them is a really tough decision. A really tough decision to go public or at least to go to reporters and to share with reporters the concerns that they have.

Jen Psaki (28:01)

Former Attorney General Eric Holder, thank you so much. And for anybody who's like, I need to know more about redistricting and what can happen, go to the NDRC website. There's lots of information there, lots you can learn. Thank you again for joining me tonight.

Eric Holder (28:14)

Thanks for having me.

Jen Psaki (28:16)

Okay, coming up tonight, Donald Trump says a ceasefire with Iran is still in effect, but there sure is a lot of fire being exchanged. So here's a pretty evergreen question I get asked all the time. What the hell is going on in Iran right now? Well, former CIA Director John Brennan is standing by and he joins me next to talk about all of it.

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Jen Psaki (29:08)

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Eric Holder (29:10)

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Jen Psaki (30:15)

Today, the war with Iran, at least briefly, became a hot war again. Because it's unclear who fired the first shot or whether this means the ceasefire is over. U.S. central Command says that Iranian forces launched missiles, drones and small boats at three US Navy Destroyers. The US Says that those attacks were unprovoked. The US Says that in response to those attacks, US Forces eliminated inbound threats and targeted drone and missile launch sites. The US Says that those attacks do not constitute a redemption of war and that the US does not seek escalation. Now, Iran is telling a different story. A spokesperson for the Iranian military told Iranian state media that the US Started today's fighting by launching unprovoked attacks against ships in the Strait of Hormuz. The spokesperson said that the U.S. airstrikes along the coast hit civilian areas. And maybe most importantly, Iran accused the US of violating the war's ceasefire. Tonight, in a phone call with ABC News, President Trump called today's strikes, quote, just a love tap, insisting that the ceasefire was still in effect. And in a social media post moments after that call, Trump warned that if Iran does not get a deal signed fast, the US will, quote, knock them out a lot harder and more violently than we saw today. So where do things stand? Is this war close to over, close to restarting in full force? It's really hard to say. This all comes on a day where we woke up to news that pokes a big, huge hole in the Trump administration's assertion that Iran is close to caving. Because today the Washington Post reported on a confidential CIA analysis that estimates that Iran can outlast Trump's blockade of the Strait of Hormuz. For months, while Trump has been insisting that Iran's economy is crashing, the CIA estimate says that Iran can survive the US blockade for 90 to 120 days, or maybe even longer, before facing severe economic hardship. Joining me now is former CIA Director John Brennan. Director Brennan, thank you, as always, to. For being here. Let me start by just getting your reaction to the trading of strikes between the US And Iran today. What do you think that means? What do you see as the status of the ceasefire, I guess, at this moment?

John Brennan (32:17)

Well, I think the forces, US Naval forces, as well as the Iranians are watching each other very carefully. And I do believe centcom's portrayal of what happened, which was the Iranians probably fired on US Naval vessels that were either in an area of the Strait that the Iranians might have viewed as provocative, or near the Iranian coast. And the Iranian Iranians fired first and then the US Navy responded in kind to. To eliminate those targets and probably strike some other facilities or launchers that they viewed as threatening. So I don't think this is leading to a, you know, quick escalation at all. I don't think either side wants that. But it's unsurprising that some of these incidents take place because we have a large Number of U.S. naval vessels in the region. And the Iranians along the coast there, I think are primed and ready to react if they feel as though there's maybe a, that might be getting a little bit too close to the shore.

Jen Psaki (33:12)

I wanted to ask you about this Washington Post reporting. I mean, because one of the things that struck me most about it, well, a lot of things, but one was that there were a number of sources. I mean, four sources, four people presumably all within the administration maybe, or people with knowledge of it. Because this document was given to administration policymakers basically leaking a confidential CIA analysis that debunks Trump's rhetoric around the war. I mean, to me that feels like a sign that even people inside the Trump administration are concerned about the rhetoric that's out there or what's being said or stated about the realities on the ground. But I wonder what you make of it.

John Brennan (33:51)

Well, I certainly think the CIA assessment is on the mark in terms of the Iranians ability to continue to resist the economic hardship enforced by the blockade. But I agree with you. I think the motivation behind the leaker or leakers is that there are individuals who really are concerned that this war is continuing to be problematic for US national security interests. And they want to make sure that there is in fact an airing of the CIA assessment intelligence community's view that, you know, more pounding of Iran is not going to bring them to their knees. If anything, I think it has emboldened the Iranian regime to stand fast and probably has won them some support within Iran because of their was seen as, you know, foreign attacks against Iranians that have killed a large number of Iranian citizens.

Jen Psaki (34:42)

It's really not the only. There's been a series of really excellent reporting that has kind of contradicted what the Trump administration is saying publicly. I mean, earlier this week, Reuters reported that U.S. intelligence assessments believe that this war has not impacted the timeline for how long it would take Iran to build a nuclear weapon at all. And Trump, Hegseth and Ruby have all, of course, all justified this war by saying pretty much the exact opposite of that, by saying think that this war was necessary and successful because it has set back Iran's nuclear program. What do you make of the giant gap there between what Trump is saying and what the intelligence community reportedly believes here?

John Brennan (35:19)

Well, again, it's unsurprising. Donald Trump will always spend things that are, you know, positive light that shines upon the administration. Well, in Fact, some of that reporting that came out from the Washington Post about the assessments indicated that there's a large number of missile launchers and missiles that the Iranians retain in their inventory, which is inconsistent, consistent with what the administration has said in terms of the decimation of Iranian military capabilities. So, again, I think, you know, the Trump administration's portrayal of just how hard the Iranians have been hit really does, does not really capture how, how resilient the Iranians have been and the capabilities they still have. So, you know, the dishonesty that's coming out of this administration, again, is consistent with, I think, what we've seen from them for the past year and a half.

Jen Psaki (36:05)

Let me ask you, while I have you, just about this other dynamic. We're running out of time, Director Brennan. I apologize. I gotta have you back on. We'll talk more about the war. Thank you so much. And everything I can always talk to you about. Thank you again for joining us.

John Brennan (36:18)

Thanks, Jen.

Jen Psaki (36:19)

Okay, coming up, we've got a ceasefire on the brink, an out of control FBI director ordering polygraph chess, and a president who is increasingly out of touch with reality. All of those things are happening at once. If anyone can help us make sense of all of this insane night of news, week of news, years of news, it's the editor of the New Yorker, David Remnick, and he joins us next. With each passing day of Trump's war with Iran, there are two things that we've pretty much come to expect. One, that Trump will say everything's going great and exactly according to plan. And two, that there will be some new piece of reporting that contradicts pretty much everything Trump just said. Take for example, that bombshell Washington Post reporting we were just talking about. That contradicted just about everything the administration has been saying publicly about the war. And when you see reporting like that, it's no wonder that he and his administration are doing everything they can to suppress and attack journalists right now. It isn't just journalists covering the war. It's any journalist who's shedding light on what's happening behind closed doors inside of this admin. But journalists are showing some enormous backbone right now. I mean, just look at what the editor in chief of the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg, had to say after reports surfaced that Cash Patel was investigating leaks to one of his reporters. He said, quote, in a note that went out today, if Patel thought that he could intimidate the Atlantic by suing us, he was very, very wrong. I promise you that we will never give in if a story is true, we will publish it. We will not be intimidated by illegitimate investigations or other acts of politically motivated retaliation. Nothing will deter us from our work. Joining me now is the deeply talented and award winning journalist, author and editor of the New Yorker, David Remnick. David, I have so many questions for you as always. I mean, every major news organization, I think, but you tell me, feels like they need to prepare for this potential for lawsuits, for investigations, for threats against their reporters or their newsrooms. What have you made of this Kash Patel saga this week? And what do you tell the journalists who work for you? How did you tell them to think about this kind of thing?

David Remnick (38:36)

I tell them to do their jobs and it's as simple as that. We can't be intimidated. We won't be intimidated. And we have to feel lucky when we have the ownership, as we do at the New Yorker and as Jeff does at the Atlantic, who stand besides independent, rigorous journalism because unfortunately, President Trump's attempts to intimidate much of the press through getting involved in their business, through public statements, through berating reporters, through manipulating situations so that certain executives that he likes replace executives that he doesn't like, have been quite successful. And so the, you know, the outlets that have independent editors and independent ownerships need to just do their work, stand up and have a spine. It's as simple as that and it's as complex as that.

Jen Psaki (39:32)

The other factor here is the impact on sources. Although, I mean, you know, I was just talking about this earlier. Msnow is also reporting that Patel has ordered polygraphs of more than two dozen member of his team clearly trying to find the Atlantic sources. And so far government sources have still been speaking to journalists all across the board. I mean, we're just talking about this eye popping Washington Post story reporting about a CIA analysis.

David Remnick (39:57)

Absolutely.

Jen Psaki (39:58)

And that's how we know things by excellent.

David Remnick (40:00)

We see this all the time. We see this all the time. For example, Ruth Marcus had a piece for us about the way pardons are doled out, which is a scandal. And you can be sure without my getting into details that some sources are very reluctant to be revealing. We've had it in all kinds of situations because they feel the hot breath of the White House on their necks. So my gratitude goes to the sources who have the courage to speak to us, whether on background or on the record. It's very difficult. People's livelihoods are at stake and sometimes their liberty is at stake. This is serious, serious business. And boy, of course I know that public trust in the press is not what it was many years ago in the wake of Watergate. Of course, I know that. But in order to regain that trust, I don't think bowing down to power is the thing. I think doing independent, serious, fact checked, thorough work with a spine is the only way to go.

Jen Psaki (41:07)

Certainly any reader of the New Yorker knows that's exactly how you go. We've been talking about this new reporting from the Washington Post tonight, based on an assessment from Donald Trump's own CIA that really flies in the face of so much of what we've heard from this administration publicly. And I wonder how you're thinking about the state of play with this war. This is something you've written about extensively, you covered foreign conflicts extensively. And this really what feels like this never ending cycle of their public statements being debunked in that, in this war.

David Remnick (41:40)

I'm going to tell you a little secret. This is not unique to the president administration. Presidents lie, Presidents very often lie about war. I mean, we have the instance of the Bay of Pigs, the Pentagon Papers during Vietnam, the Iraq, Iraq War, and now in Iran. This is not new. But maybe President Trump abuses the privilege in degree. Look, it's not a secret to you or to your viewers either that Donald Trump lies constantly, almost to a comic degree. He's learned his way of being in the world and his rhetoric much more from Roy Cohn and Vince McMahon and Dana White than he has from, from his best presidential predecessors. That much is evident. And we see it on a nightly basis. We see it on a daily basis. This is not an exceptional event when he lies like that. And he knows that he's surrounded by loyalists, satraps who will do the same, that they know that their jobs depend on, you know, toeing the line no less than it exists in Putin's Russia. And that is heartbreaking to me, but it's a reality.

Jen Psaki (42:56)

It should be heartbreaking to everybody. It seems like we are looking at a strategic failure here. I mean, potentially of historic proportions. And all Trump can do is continue to escalate his threats. I mean, he just spoke to reporters outside the Reflecting Pool in Washington and he was asked about this exchange of strikes today in Iran. I just want to play this clip for you and of course for our viewers too.

Eric Holder (43:23)

After these strikes.

Jen Psaki (43:24)

Is the ceasefire with Iran still on?

Donald Trump (43:27)

Yeah, it is. They trifled with us today. We blew them away. They trifled. I call that a trifle. I'll let you know when there's no cease. You won't have to know if there's no ceasefire, you're not going to have to know. You just going to have to look at one big blow coming out of Iran and they better sign their agreement. Agreement fast.

Jen Psaki (43:48)

I mean, he threatened, in case people couldn't hear, he threatened one big glow coming out of Iran. What do you make of that?

David Remnick (43:56)

Well, a charitable interpretation is just braggadocious before. Good, because it reeks of the same kind of rhetoric where he said that he would eliminate Iranian civilization. It's that kind of cruelty and heedlessness that's part and parcel of his rhetoric throughout this episode and unfortunately, throughout his presidency. You know, Aglow suggests, I hate to say it, something even nuclear, much less just ordinary bombs. This is just not the way a statesman behaves. Statecraft is hard enough. It demands poise, it demands straight talk, it demands intelligence and patience. And I don't think he's showing any of that. You know, this is a situation. This has its roots in a hatred of Barack Obama and getting rid of the Iran deal, the Iran nuclear deal in 2018. And now we've come all the way around so that the United States will be extremely lucky to get back to status quo ante, where the Iran deal was in the first place for all its flaws.

Jen Psaki (45:08)

David Remnick, thank you for your fearless reporting, for coming and talking with us tonight as well. Really appreciate it always.

David Remnick (45:17)

Thank you. Take care, Jen.

Jen Psaki (45:19)

We have to take a very quick break. Lawrence has Senator Adam Schiff standing by. We'll be right back. That does it for me tonight. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on Ms. Now. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok.

Jimmy Uso (45:35)

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