Trump team's bungling makes his bad ideas worse

Summary

The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode: Trump team's bungling makes his bad ideas worse
Date: August 20, 2025
Host: Jen Psaki (MSNBC, with extended segments hosted by Ali Velshi)

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Episode Overview

This episode examines how the Trump administration's heavy-handed interventions, particularly in law enforcement and education, are not only undermining core democratic principles but are often accompanied by poor execution and significant public backlash. Through field reports, data, and in-depth interviews with Congressman Ro Khanna (D-CA), former Ambassador Bill Taylor, and Texas State Rep. Nicole Collier, the episode explores recent events: the militarization of Washington D.C., politicization of the DOJ and FBI, crackdowns on educators, gerrymandering efforts, and localized resistance by public officials.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Militarization and Mismanagement in Washington, D.C.

[01:00–06:26]

• Trump’s Claim vs. Reality: Trump touts that turning D.C. into a “police state” has revived local businesses, especially restaurants. In reality, reservation numbers have dramatically dropped, and small business owners detail massive losses and a “ghost town” atmosphere.

  • Data Contradiction: OpenTable data shows reservations down 27–31%, contradicting Trump's narrative.
  • Business Owners Speak:
    • Mark Rothstein: "Friday was the worst Friday in history. We lost a little more than $15,000 in that night." ([02:51])
    • David Paruza: "It was a ghost town last night. On Friday it was crazy. A ghost town." ([03:10])

• Overreach and Collateral Damage:

  • Federal agents—often masked and in unmarked vehicles—are detaining residents and targeting immigrant communities indiscriminately, exemplified by the arrest of food delivery drivers.
  • Resources are diverted from key FBI missions (terrorism, cybercrime) to Trump's “pet issues,” as reported by MSNBC’s Ken Dilanian.

• Politicized Law Enforcement:

  • Trump’s DOJ directly orders arrests of political opponents, such as the mayor of Newark and ongoing targeting of NY Attorney General Letitia James.

• Bungled Handling of Epstein Files:

  • DOJ's refusal to comply fully with congressional subpoenas leads to a slow “drip” of public, non-revelatory information, frustrating lawmakers and the public.
  • “Trump's attempts to turn the Justice Department into his own personal enforcers is, of course, dangerous and cause for concern. But... none of Trump's handpicked enforcers have proved themselves to be particularly serious people.” ([09:41] Ali Velshi)

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2. Interview with Rep. Ro Khanna: D.C., Ukraine, and DOJ Dysfunction

[13:00–20:57]

• On Trump’s D.C. Occupation:

  • "It seems that Donald Trump is in the wrong job. It seems like he really wants to be mayor... but he's not acting as president." ([13:54] Ro Khanna)
  • The militarization appears performative, chills street activity, harms business, and represents federal intrusion into local governance.

• On Ukraine Crisis and U.S. Foreign Policy:

  • Congress, across party lines, generally supports Ukraine and views Trump’s overtures to Putin with suspicion.
  • "The leaders of NATO... had to flatter [Trump] so that he would not sell out Ukraine and allow Putin to basically keep all of that territory." ([14:52] Ro Khanna)
  • Potential “security guarantees” are being discussed, with U.S. air support but not boots on the ground.

• On Dysfunction in DOJ and the Epstein Files:

  • Bipartisan support is growing for transparency, but Republican leadership is accused of stalling and hoping public interest will fade.
  • Khanna emphasizes that, despite efforts to bury it, the Epstein issue is dominating constituent concerns.
    • "It's because people are enraged that the speaker shut down Congress to prevent a vote... They're enraged that the victims have not had justice." ([17:57] Ro Khanna)

• On Federalization and Politicization:

  • Trump’s endless search for loyal enforcers bypasses constitutional norms, sparking public unease.
  • “We are really becoming a nation where you're politicizing law enforcement, where a party in power is using the tools of law enforcement to go after their political opponents. That is contrary to the very thing that makes us unique as a nation: the rule of law.” ([19:33] Ro Khanna)

• Public Response:

  • While some democratic principles feel “abstract” to voters, rising prices and broken promises from Trump register more strongly.
    • “There's a sense that Trump is betraying some of his promises, that he's not living up to actually focusing on prices and the working class. And that is resonating.” ([20:29] Ro Khanna)

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3. Ukraine Crisis: Security Guarantees and Peace Talks

with Former Ambassador Bill Taylor
[22:50–30:50]

• Recent Developments:

  • Peace process is allegedly moving forward, but the Kremlin rebuffs Trump’s narrative. Speculation mounts about a trilateral summit in Budapest.

• Security Guarantees Explained:

  • “A step down from NATO membership... is this coalition of the willing, putting troops on the ground with an Article 5-like commitment.” ([26:43] Bill Taylor)

• Russia’s Role:

  • “Putin has nothing to say about that. He has no relevance in that decision... we shouldn't even be talking to the Russians about the security guarantee.” ([27:57] Bill Taylor)

• Land Swap Proposals:

  • Bill Taylor rejects any legitimization of Russian land grabs:
    • “We should not allow, no one should allow one nation to take by force other nation's territory. We shouldn't allow borders to be changed by force.” ([29:20] Bill Taylor)
    • He draws historical parallels to West Germany’s posture on East Germany, suggesting Ukrainians will maintain claims but refrain from retaking land by force—for now.

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4. MAGA-fication of Public Education: Oklahoma's Right-Wing Loyalty Test

[32:30–33:13+]

• Superintendent Ryan Walters' New Policy:

  • Oklahoma will require teachers from New York and California to pass a test “screening out woke indoctrinators” before teaching in the state, at a time when Oklahoma faces a severe teacher shortage.

• PragerU Partnership:

  • Walters expands PragerU's influence, a right-wing propaganda group producing curriculum and “assessment” materials ideologically aligned with MAGA priorities.

• Impact:

  • Polarizing, exclusionary measures further strain an already stretched system and reinforce ideological litmus tests for public employment.

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5. Texas Voting Rights Battle: Nicole Collier’s Capitol Standoff

Interview: Rep. Nicole Collier (D-TX)
[37:01–43:41]

• Context:

  • In response to a Democrat walkout over aggressive GOP gerrymandering, Republicans force Dems who wish to leave the Texas Capitol to sign “permission slips” agreeing to 24/7 police escorts.

• Civil Disobedience:

  • Nicole Collier refuses to comply, opting to be detained in the House chamber rather than accept State Police custody.
  • "If you're going to be in the custody of law enforcement, it sounds like there's some type of criminal act that's going on, and this is far from it. We have a right to exercise civil disobedience." ([37:12] Nicole Collier)

• Public and Political Support:

  • Collier says she's bolstered by crowds outside the Capitol, calls from VP Harris and Gov. Hochul, and solidarity from colleagues who tore up their own permission slips.
  • Describes conditions: doors locked, forced to sleep in her chair, cameras and public access shut off, stalling transparency.
  • “Everyone knows America knows that anytime your ability to roam freely, your freedoms are hindered, it's wrong and we won't stand for it.” ([40:42] Collier)

• Next Steps and Resolve:

  • "We're going to set the legal record, and then we're going to take it to the courts. And we're going to continue to raise national awareness about the importance of having fair elections and fair matters so that we can stop this lying and cheating and rigging of our elections..." ([43:13] Collier)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Ali Velshi ([01:30]):
  "Increasing restaurant attendance is hardly a justification for turning an American city into a police state."

• Mark Rothstein ([02:51]):
  "Friday was the worst Friday in history. We lost a little more than $15,000 in that night."

• Ali Velshi ([09:41]):
  "Trump's attempts to turn the Justice Department into his own personal enforcers is, of course, dangerous and cause for concern. But... none of Trump's hand picked enforcers have proved themselves to be particularly serious people."

• Rep. Ro Khanna ([13:54]):
  "It seems that Donald Trump is in the wrong job. It seems like he really wants to be mayor... but he's not acting as president."

• Rep. Ro Khanna ([19:33]):
  "We are really becoming a nation where you're politicizing law enforcement, where a party in power is using the tools of law enforcement to go after their political opponents. That is contrary to the very thing that makes us unique as a nation: the rule of law."

• Nicole Collier ([38:55]):
  "Even if it is legal, it's not right. I'm a grown woman. I represent just as many people as the speaker and all the other colleagues in this body. And you don't treat me like a child..."

• Bill Taylor ([29:20]):
  "We should not allow, no one should allow one nation to take by force other nation's territory. We shouldn't allow borders to be changed by force."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:00–06:26 | Militarization in D.C. and impact on local business
• 13:00–20:57 | Interview: Rep. Ro Khanna on Trump’s policies, Ukraine, DOJ
• 22:50–30:50 | Ukraine peace proposals analyzed with Amb. Bill Taylor
• 32:30–33:13+ | Oklahoma's right-wing teacher loyalty test
• 37:01–43:41 | Interview: Nicole Collier’s Texas standoff and gerrymander pushback

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Episode Tone

Serious, urgent, and at times darkly humorous—especially when highlighting the disarray and lack of professionalism among Trump's appointees. The reporting is detailed, resistant, and empathetic to those experiencing government overreach.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• The Trump administration’s “law and order” policies are damaging local economies and undercutting rights and safety.
• Law enforcement is being weaponized for political advantage and to punish opponents, eroding the principle of rule of law.
• Grassroots resistance and bipartisan cracks are emerging, especially around transparency and democratic norms.
• “Performance” politics—such as Trump’s focus on optics over substance—often backfires due to poor execution.
• Local leaders and citizens are mounting significant, visible resistance to authoritarian measures, keeping democratic principles at the forefront.

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Transcript

[Nicole Collier]

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Ali Velshi]

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[Bill Taylor]

They'Re part of one big movement, the.

[Ali Velshi]

More powerful that gets and the more success we'll have.

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Ali Velshi]

And it has been eight days since Donald Trump decided to turn Washington, D.C. into a police state, sending National Guard troops into the streets of the nation's capital and disrupting life for hundreds of thousands of D.C. residents. But if you ask Trump, the whole thing's been a huge success. Based on one single metric.

[Ro Khanna]

People that haven't gone out to dinner.

[Ali Velshi]

In Washington, D.C. in two years are.

[Ro Khanna]

Going out to dinner. And the restaurants the last two days were busier than they've been in a long time.

[Ali Velshi]

I've made Washington, D.C. d.C. Just an incredible, just an incredible place in literally four days. I have friends that say they're going out to dinner. Did you see what's happening with the restaurants? They're bursting. Some of my best friends are going out to dinner. DC's restaurants are bursting with people. They've been busier in the last two days than they've been in a long time. To be clear, increasing restaurant attendance is hardly a justification for turning an American city into a police state. But put that aside for a second, because, like so much of what Donald Trump says, his claims about D.C. restaurants bursting with people is, to say the least, factually challenged. According to data from the reservation booking site OpenTable, restaurant reservations in Washington, D.C. plummeted during the first week of Trump's D.C. takeover. The day after Trump made his announcement, reservations were down 27% from the same time the previous year. The next day, reservations dropped even further, down 31%. I should note that this week is DC's annual Restaurant Week, and restaurants are hoping that that will drive more reservations in the coming days. But the small business owners who run those restaurants say Trump's D.C. takeover has already hurt business in the District.

[Ro Khanna]

Friday was the worst Friday in history. We lost a little more than $15,000 in that night.

[Ali Velshi]

Mark Rothstein is owner here. He says Wednesday night authorities set up a checkpoint right outside his bar. He says this outside his front door.

[Ro Khanna]

Is keeping foot traffic away. This is something that I can't control.

[Ali Velshi]

If we can't make our payroll, we can't pay our staff. We can't stay open. On 18th Street Northwest in Adams Morgan, David Paruza has seen a similar unusually low turnout at his bars the past week. It's been miserable. Like, we saw a decline in sales by $7,000 on Friday. Right now, it's the ghost town. And it was a ghost town last night. When I went out, it was a ghost town. On Friday. It was craz. A ghost town. That's how D.C. business owners are describing their city under martial law, While Trump claims that his DC Takeover is great for business. And you might be thinking to yourself, okay, nobody wants to eat out in a city overrun with armed troops, but maybe people can still patronize those restaurants by ordering food for delivery. Well, I got some bad news for you there as well. It was just before 11am in Columbia Heights. A food delivery driver is put in handcuffs by by several federal agents. I asked the man what reason he was given for his arrest. He responds, they're taking me away. Neighbors reminding the man that he has the right to remain silent. These women tell me he's a delivery driver who works every day outside the restaurant where they work. They tell me he's humble and hardworking. You're in an unmarked car right now. D.C. neighbors were outraged that officers didn't identify their agency, some even concealing their faces. Masked agents in unmarked cars grabbing a food delivery driver off the streets and hauling him away, presumably to one of Donald Trump's many immigration prisons. It's hardly an isolated incident. This photo was taken by another D.C. resident who went outside his apartment to check why his food delivery was taking so long. And he found masked agents arresting his delivery driver. The video shows what appears to be the arrest of a grubhub delivery driver in D.C. a reporter who witnessed the arrest told us that roughly 20 police officers and immigrant agents were present to arrest one driver. That reporter also told us the driver was sobbing, asking for his family, and he had to be taken away in an ambulance. Donald Trump wants people to believe his sweeping law enforcement policies are making life better for regular Americans. But the exact opposite is true. His takeover of American cities, his attack on immigrant communities, his weaponization of our justice system, it's all making life worse for the people experiencing it up close. And instead of reducing crime, it's actually taking resources away from, from legitimate crime fighting efforts. Today, MSNBC's Kendelaneon reports that the Trump administration is simultaneously slashing the workforce at the FBI while diverting resources that the agency has left to Trump's pet issues. Quote, Current and former FBI officials tell MSNBC the changes are coming at the expense of the FBI's role protecting the US from terrorists, hackers and spies, as well as its traditional missions of fighting white collar fraud, public corruption, and child sex crimes. Multiple current and former FBI officials say they've already seen that happening over the past several months as agents have been diverted to immigration enforcement and veterans with years of experience have left the bureau. So federal agents trying to stop terrorism and sex crimes are being diverted away from that important work. But if you ask Donald Trump, none of that is a concern.

[Bill Taylor]

Are you concerned at all that some federal officers that are helping D.C. police might be being pulled away from other high priority assignments? Like what?

[Ali Velshi]

Like what?

[Bill Taylor]

Terrorism, for example.

[Ro Khanna]

Oh, really?

[Ali Velshi]

Terrorism. Oh, really? Terrorism? Yes. Terrorism is actually something people want federal law enforcement to stop. Trump's takeover of federal law enforcement isn't about taking crime seriously or keeping America safe. It's about punishing people. Whether you're punishing immigrants with no criminal records or people living in blue cities that didn't vote for Donald Trump or Democratic politicians Trump doesn't like. As we get more and more evidence of that every day, you may remember this scene outside an immigration detention center in Newark, New Jersey. It was a couple months ago, federal agents arrested the mayor of Newark for allegedly trespassing the property. Those charges were later dropped, but today we learned that the order to arrest a sitting Democratic official came straight from the top. According to a court filing, body cam footage from one of the officers involved in that arrest includes audio of an officer saying that Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch, Trump's personal attorney, if you'll recall, told officers to arrest the mayor of Newark. Quote, I am arresting the mayor even though he stepped out. I'm going to put him in cuffs. We are arresting the mayor right now, per the Deputy Attorney General of the United States. Anyone that gets in our way, I need to give you guys. I need you guys to give me a perimeter so I can cuff him. The people Trump has installed at the Justice Department and The FBI are acting like Trump's personal intimidation squad. They're using their power to target Democratic officials who get in the way of Trump's agenda. And they're doing it in increasingly bizarre ways. For instance, this was the scene outside the home of New York Attorney General Letitia James last Friday. Take a look at the guy in the trench coat. He's not a Colombo impersonator. It's Trump DOJ official Ed Martin, the January 6th apologist who now has a special job at Trump's Justice Department investigating Democratic elected officials. Back in 2023, Attorney General James brought the civil fraud suit against Donald Trump, where he was found liable for committing fraud in his businesses. And after Trump took office again, his Justice Department decided to go after Letitia James. The DOJ announced that Ed Martin would be in charge of investigating Attorney General James for potential mortgage fraud, allegations that she vehemently denies. Which is why, I guess, Ed Martin showed up at her home last week dressed like a 1970s TV detective to conduct his investigation. But the residents of Attorney General James, Brooklyn's neighborhood, were not having any of it. Just look at what happened when one resident confronted Ed Martin about why he was there. Why won't you be honest with me about what you're doing? You are acting suspicious on my blog, in front of my neighbor's office. I'm just looking and you're not telling me what you're doing. That's not true. Interesting houses. It's an important house, so thank you. Have a good time.

[Nicole Collier]

It's not. It's just like every other track house.

[Ali Velshi]

On this block that were built by developers, right? They're beautiful.

[Nicole Collier]

Beautiful neighborhood.

[Ali Velshi]

Thank you. Do you guys call this a stoop? What do you think? I don't know. It's a stoop.

[Ro Khanna]

We didn't have stoops where I was growing up.

[Ali Velshi]

Is this a stoop? Is this a stoop? You call this a stoop, you say? I guess the Colombo disguise wasn't as effective as Ed Martin thought it would be. Trump's attempts to turn the Justice Department into his own personal enforcer enforcers is, of course, dangerous and cause for concern. But if there's one reason to be hopeful, it's that none of Trump's hand picked enforcers have proved themselves to be particularly serious people. They're not good at disguising their agenda, at convincing the public that they're doing anything other than Trump's bidding. They're also not particularly good at their jobs. Nothing makes that reality more clear than the Justice Department's bungled response to the calls for the release of the Epstein files. They've been getting this wrong since Attorney General Pam Bondi's ridiculous stunt where she gave Internet influencers big binders full of stuff that everybody already knew. Months later. They haven't improved much. For example, today was supposed to be the deadline for Trump's DOJ to comply with the congressional subpoena for the Epstein files. But instead of meeting that deadline, the Justice Department now says it will start releasing some piecemeal information to Congress about Jeffrey Epstein starting this Friday, thus likely keeping the drip, drip, drip of information about Epstein dripping for some time to come. Trump's Justice Department acts like it can do whatever Trump wants, but even when they do, they're constantly bungling things in ways that end up making things work for themselves and for the man they work for. Congressman Ro Khanna, a Democratic member of the House Oversight Committee who's been out front on demanding the release of the Epstein files, joins us in 90 seconds.

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[Ali Velshi]

Joining us now is Congressman Ro Khanna, a Democrat from California and a member of the House Oversight Committee. Congressman, good to see you. Thank you for being with us. I want to just sort of Follow this conversation in order. Donald Trump saying, fantastic. All the restaurants are bursting at the seams in Washington, D.C. a couple of things are happening. One is that's not true. Number two, this seems awfully performative. These National Guard and federal officials who are in Washington have seemed to not necessarily be in places that are even determined to be high crime areas in Washington. They just tend to be places where people can see them. And number three, I do worry about the fact that the longer they sit around and people get used to it. But that's kind of the point with Donald Trump, right? You're just getting people used to the fact that there are masked federal agents, there are uniformed federal agents, there are tanks in the streets of Washington, D.C. for what, we don't know.

[Ro Khanna]

Look, it seems that Donald Trump is in the wrong job. It seems like he really wants to be mayor and maybe he can try his hand in running against Madani. I mean, now I hear that he's talking to Cuomo about winning that race, but he's not acting as president. I mean, no one elected him to have public safety in Washington. That's the job of the mayor and the city council. And a lot of this is performative. A lot of it is having a chilling effect on street traffic. And it's not any of his expertise. It's not something where he's supposed to intervene. I rather he focus on standing up for Ukraine and moral clarity and representing this country well on the world stage.

[Ali Velshi]

What's your sense of what's happened there? That's been an awful confusing thing that's been going on since Friday with that weird meeting with Vladimir Putin. And then, you know, to his credit, Volodymyr Zelenskyy brought all his friends and supporters to the White House. What's your sense of where that whole matter is going?

[Ro Khanna]

I mean, isn't that embarrassing that the leaders of NATO, the leaders of Western Europe, could not trust the American president, our president, to have a meeting with Zelenskyy? They canceled their hol, they flew in and they had to flatter him so that he would not sell out Ukraine and allow Putin basically to keep all of that territory. I'm glad that they seem to have been able to prevail at least so that Trump now is saying that there's going to be some security guarantee. Otherwise, who knows what would have happened. But we need to clearly in the Congress make it clear that we're not going to abandon Ukraine, that we are going to support Ukraine and that Putin needs to give the territory back and we have to stand for Ukraine's security.

[Ali Velshi]

No, you're one of those people in Congress who, without giving up your ideological perspectives, have managed to partner with Republicans, in many cases, Republicans who do not share most of your views. But in the interest of democracy and things that are going right, Congress has, generally speaking, been entirely supportive of Ukraine. Donald Trump's Ukraine positions are not in keeping with the Republican Party or in Congress as a whole. Where do you think that lands him right now?

[Ro Khanna]

I think people are very concerned. I mean, this is an issue where you don't just have Republicans speaking privately, you have them speaking out publicly. They are concerned that he is going to appease Putin and they are willing to speak out publicly on this, just like they also are now on the Epstein files. I mean, it's not just Thomas Massie who's shown a lot of courage. You even have. Comer was the chair of the Oversight Committee, saying that he expects the Justice Department to produce documents. So far, it's been drip, drip, drip. And the things we're getting are basically public information, like what Pam Bondi released. But when we get back, you're going to have all 212 Democrats vote for the release of these Epstein files and you're going to get a fair amount of Republicans vote for that. And so you're seeing now cracks in the MAGA base when it comes to Ukraine, when it comes to Epstein, when it comes to Trump's carte blanche support for Netanyahu, their people are feeling betrayed. And when it comes to some of the tariffs on coffee and food and vegetables which have driven up prices, you.

[Ali Velshi]

Know, I'd be most pleased if something is resolved in Ukraine. But it did occur to me that on Friday and on Saturday and on Sunday and today, because of that, Epstein hasn't been on the front burner. You have talked about Comer and Massie and others, you and I have discussed the fact that there's some betting on Mike Johnson's part that by the time whenever Congress gets called back, and apparently that it may be longer, the recess may be longer than originally planned, that this will have faded from the limelight. As we, as you said, they're going to start the drip, drip, drip continues. They're going to start giving information that may be already public information, certainly not what, what you and others are asking for. Tell me how you see that playing out.

[Ro Khanna]

I think the speaker is just wrong. I mean, at the town halls, I go on to, I want to talk about the tax breaks to the billionaires, the awful Medicaid Cuts the economic policies we need. And often the first few questions I get are about the Epstein files. And it's because people are enraged that the speaker shut down Congress to prevent a vote on the release of these files. They're enraged that the victims have not had justice or a say. Thomas Massie and I are going to have a press conference on September 3rd with many of the victims speaking out for the first time. I believe this story is not going away until we have full release of the Epstein files in transparency. And it's actually going to dominate the coverage, in my view, in the first few weeks of September.

[Ali Velshi]

Some of the stuff that's going on at the DOJ and the FBI, it's comical. We were showing you Ed Martin dressed like Colombo outside of Tisha James house, but. But you got Ed Martin doing that and investigating this mortgage issue with, with Tish James and with Adam Schiff. You've got the Missouri Attorney General, Andrew Bailey, who's coming in as the FBI co Deputy Director alongside Dan Bongino. Because nobody really knows what's going on with Dan Bongino. Now. He had been calling for the Epstein files, and then suddenly he came out and said, there's no there there. There's this whole DC crime weird stuff that's going on. There is a worrisome part. As comical and dysfunctional as it is, there is a worrisome part of this whole thing, right? The federalization of police and the idea that Donald Trump will just keep on scraping and scraping until he finds people who will actually do his bidding.

[Ro Khanna]

It's very worrisome. And Ali, as a son of immigrants, I remember my parents saying, you know, in America, the amazing thing is politics is relatively clean. Yes, you gotta raise money, but people don't go prosecute each other. And when I was getting into politics, my grandmother said, oh, no, this could be violent. They go after each other. In my. I remember my mom saying, no, no, no, that's not how they do things in America. And now we're really becoming a nation where you're politicizing law enforcement, where a party in power is using the tools of law enforcement to go after their political opponents. That is contrary to the very thing that makes us unique as a nation, the rule of law. And it should concern people of all parties and backgrounds.

[Ali Velshi]

Do you hear? Because you're out there, you're, you're out there at town halls, you're talking to people. Is this registering with people that some of the worst things we've seen in the world's history get started this way.

[Ro Khanna]

You know, it comes up. Unfortunately, these arguments about the rule of law, about democracy are more abstract. I wish they resonated more. Vice President Harris should have been president if people had taken it more seriously. But I'll tell you what is resonating more broadly. There's a sense that Trump is betraying some of his promises, that he's not living up to actually focusing on prices in the working class. And that is resonating.

[Ali Velshi]

Congressman, good to see you as always. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate it. Congressman Ro Khanna of California. All right. Coming up, Oklahoma's maga fide school chief wants teachers from some blue states to take what amounts to a right wing loyalty test in order to teach in his state, which is desperate for public school teachers. But first, the White House says Putin is ready for direct talks with Zelensky over Russia's war in Ukraine. Russian officials say otherwise. We'll have more on that after a quick break.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brusinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Hayes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.

[Nicole Collier]

Following the encouraging conversations yesterday, President Trump spoke with President Putin by phone and he agreed to begin the next phase of the peace process, a meeting between President Putin and President Zelensky, which would be followed, if necessary, by a trilateral meeting between President Putin, President Zelensky and President Trump.

[Ali Velshi]

Despite what White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt said this afternoon, Vladimir Putin has so far refused to commit to meeting with the leader of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky. In fact, today, the Kremlin pushed back on that prospect, saying that Putin and Trump discussed the mere possibility of a meeting between, quote, higher ranking officials from Ukraine and Russia, making no mention of whether Putin himself. However, Russia throwing cold water on Trump's attempts to organize a meeting has not stopped the White House from reportedly eyeing the Hungarian capital of Budapest to be the location for a trilateral meeting between Trump, Putin and Zelensky, which is an interesting choice given the fact that Hungary is led by authoritarian Viktor Orban, who has very close ties to Putin and Trump. We did learn today that Trump spoke on the phone with Orban yesterday. And while the White House would not say what they discussed, it's hard to imagine that Russia and Ukraine didn't come up. Now, if the next stage of peace talks were to happen in Budapest, that would certainly add a new layer of symbolism to this entire matter, because Budapest was the site of a 1994 international agreement called the Budapest Memorandum, during which the US, the United Kingdom, Russia and France promised to uphold Ukraine's independence, sovereignty and respect for its border in exchange for relinquishing its nuclear weapons. We all know how that peace agreement worked out for Ukraine. Joining us now is a former US Ambassador to Ukraine under President Obama, Bill Taylor. Bill, welcome back to the show. You've seen a lot of things in the diplomatic world, I have to say, everything that's gone on since Friday, the unusual meeting inviting Vladimir Putin to America, it didn't go as long as it was supposed to go, with an unclear outcome. Then an invitation of Volodymyr Zelenskyy to come to the White House, who then brought all his European friends, the head of NATO, the of the EU and a number of prime ministers from Europe. Whole thing has unfolded very unusually. Where do you evaluate us as being right now?

[Bill Taylor]

So, Ali, Yeah, a lot of movement. But I would say that the yesterday conversation actually moved forward a bit in that, as you just pointed out, the Europeans are solid, Europeans are united. And by Europeans, I mean Europeans, including Zelensky. And there was a lot of agreement with President Trump yesterday. So the west solid united in support of Ukraine. That's a good thing. Second big thing from yesterday was a whole lot of serious talk about a security guarantee. There's been previous discussions and the Europeans have been talking about it for some time, but now they're serious. And now they're talking about putting troops on the ground in Ukraine to monitor a ceasefire, not the monitor, to enforce a ceasefire, to deter Russians from coming in and invading again. And President Trump said the Americans will participate, probably from the air without boots on the ground. But that's an important piece. So those two things actually are a good thing from yesterday.

[Ali Velshi]

Back In October of 2024, you wrote in the New York Times that Ukraine should be given NATO membership. Now, NATO's got a lot of things. Being a NATO member involves a lot of things. But the, the best thing you get in exchange for being a part of NATO is Article 5, the security guarantee that if anybody attacks you, it's like attacking all the other NATO members and you get to benefit from that. NATO has actually, Ukraine has actually done a lot of NATO ish stuff, right, since 1994. Their army operates more like NATO armies, militaries operate. They've got that interoperability. So tell me about what NATO without being in NATO would look like for Ukraine. The security guarantee that everybody's talking about that doesn't necessarily at the moment involve NATO membership. What does that even look like?

[Bill Taylor]

Well, so a step down from NATO membership, which as you point out, Ali, is the gold standard. It's also the cheapest and the most effective security guarantee that there is. But if that's not on the table for now, don't give up on it. But it's not on the table for now. Then this coalition of the willingness, putting troops on the ground with an Article 5 like commitment, that is these coalition willing, which is led by the French and the Brits, but It's got like 30 members, 30 nations that are, that are there, including now the Americans would say that NATO says if you're attacked, we're with you, we'll support you. Doesn't say exactly how we're with you. And each of those 30 nations will do it a little differently as it is in NATO as in the actual Article 5.

[Ali Velshi]

So tell me then, why Vladimir Putin, who amongst his very few flimsy reasons for starting this war, this was one of them, right? That NATO is an encroachment on Russia, always has been, ever since those Warsaw Pact countries became NATO countries. Why would Vladimir Putin agree to a NATO light sort of version for Ukraine?

[Bill Taylor]

He wouldn't. And it shouldn't matter. It doesn't matter what he thinks about the security guarantee. He doesn't have anything to say about the security guarantee that we or the Brits or the French Europeans give to Ukraine. That's a matter of Ukraine and those security guaranteeing nations. Putin has nothing to say about that. He has no relevance in that decision. So we shouldn't even ask him if he approves of this. The whole purpose, Ali, is to deter Russia from invading Ukraine. Again, why would we ask Russia if it's okay with them? To deter them? No, no, no, no. We will not. We should not even be talking to the Russians about the security guarantee.

[Ali Velshi]

Talk to me about this concept Donald Trump keeps bringing up of a land swap. And obviously Putin brought that up. You know, a lot of people who say what's the swap? This was Ukrainian land that Russia took, making references back to 1938 and Germany, which by the way, two or three times kept on saying this is all we want. Once you give us this, we're good. And within a year you had all of Europe in war. There are some who say there is no amount of swap or giving land up that is worth it for Ukraine and Europe. And there are others who say there will be no deal unless Ukraine cedes some of the territory that it claims as its own. Where do you stand on this?

[Bill Taylor]

I stand on the principle that we should not allow, no one should allow one nation to take by force other nation's territory. We shouldn't allow borders to be changed by force. Now, we can still acknowledge, Ali, that the Russians are in Ukraine. They occupy 19% of Ukraine. That's a fact. So de facto there, there's. But we should never recognize and the Ukrainians will never recognize a legal claim of the Russians on that 19%. That's a distinction that we ought to really be emphasizing. Yeah, they're there. We assume they won't be there forever. And we will recognize that and we won't take it back by force. Ali, remember, you've done good analogies, historical analogies. The West Germans never gave up expectation that they would get back East Germany even though the Soviets dominated East Germany and the West Germans. Going back to your NATO question, the West Germans gave a commitment, made a promise that they would not try to take East Germany by force and that would allow them to go into NATO. They went into NATO, started the eu. The Ukrainians remember that. The Ukrainians will say, okay, like East Germany, we're not going to give up claim to Donbas and Crimea, but we'll get it back someday. We'll get it back someday. And for now we promise we commit not to try to take it back by force.

[Ali Velshi]

Bill, always great to have your analysis. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Former United States ambassador to Ukraine, Bill Taylor. Alright. Coming up next, Oklahoma's maga centric school chief, his answer to combating indoctrination in schools is literal indoctrination in schools. I'll explain after a quick break. As Donald Trump and Magaworld continue their assault on American education by rooting out what they deem to be anti American and so called woke indoctrination. One Trump loyalist has cartoonishly and abrasively stood out in his efforts. If you haven't had the pleasure, this is the Oklahoma State Superintendent of Public Instruction, Ryan Walter. He served in the role since 2023, and in that relatively short amount of time, he's tried repeatedly to infuse Oklahoma schools with his own preferred style of right wing indoctrination. He's actively pushing to mandate that Oklahoma public schools teach the Bible and the Ten Commandments. He demanded that public schools show students a video of him denouncing the radical left and praying for Donald Trump. And in one of his earlier acts as superintendent, he announced the state's new partnership with the right wing media organization Prageru. Now, despite the U in Prageru, Prageru is not an accredited educational institution. It churns out videos and lesson plans to attack what it calls the dominant left wing ideology in culture, media and education. This is a taste of the content you can find amongst its student friendly resources. Slavery is as old as time and has taken place in every corner of the world. Even amongst the people I just left. Being taken as a slave is better than being killed. No, I don't see the problem.

[Nicole Collier]

Most gender stereotypes exist because they reflect the way that men and women are naturally different.

[Ro Khanna]

One of the most beautiful things God.

[Ali Velshi]

Has created is a woman's smile.

[Ro Khanna]

It can fill a room with energy and joy. Just try smiling and see how it.

[Bill Taylor]

Affects the people around you.

[Nicole Collier]

They're not trees, they're wind turbines. The government pays many farmers to have them on their land, but we decided not to get them. Sadly, ever since our neighbor put them up, we don't see many birds because they get hit by the blades.

[Ali Velshi]

Last month, Oklahoma School Chief Walters announced that Prageru would have an even larger hand in the education of the state's children and would be helping to develop an assessment for teachers relocating from states with progressive education policies. Today, we learn more about that so called assessment. Walters announced that teachers from two blue states, New York and California, who apply to teach in Oklahoma will now have to pass an exam meant to screen out, quote woke indoctrinators, end quote. The test will contain 50 questions that will cover an array of topics including government, religion and gender, according to examples provided by Walter's office. The full list of questions has not been released yet, but what's particularly galling about this attempt to disincentivize some teachers from applying to teaching jobs in Oklahoma is the fact that the state has been facing a major teacher shortage. According to data from the Oklahoma Department of Education, 6065 teachers did not return to the classroom this past school year compared to the prior year, that's a nearly 14% drop in the total teaching workforce. So what Walter's new ideology test shows once again, is that MAGA figures like him aren't actually concerned about strengthening the education system for students. What's important is getting the indoctrination right. All right, coming up, she spent the night on the floor of the Texas State Capitol after refusing a Republican mandated police escort. Now, State Representative Nicole Collier says she'll stay as long as it takes. She's standing by to join me next. This was the scene at the Indiana State House earlier this month as J.D. vance reportedly snuck through tunnels to meet with Indiana Republicans to push them to gerrymander their state. Right now, Trump is pushing local Republican leaders in Republican controlled states like Texas, Florida, Ohio, Missouri, and Indiana to rig their congressional maps in the GOP's favor. And wherever they face resistance to that deeply undemocratic and unpopular plan, they're applying pressure. Radical progressives like Gavin Newsom, J.B. pritzker, and Kathy Hochul are threatening to redistrict their states with the goal of the Trump presidency. But we can stop these radicals by doing our own redistricting here in Indiana. In Indiana, multiple local Republican lawmakers have come out publicly against Trump's gerrymandering plan on principle. So now their constituents are being flooded with potentially illegal robocalls and automated texts, trying to get them to pressure their local lawmakers to comply with Trump's plans, principles be damned. But nowhere in the country are Trump and his allies applying pressure on this issue like they are right now in Texas. Yesterday, Texas state House Democrats returned to the legislature after staging a two week walkout to delay the passage of Texas gerrymandering maps. The Republican House speaker then forced those Democrats to sign permission slips allowing state police officers to follow them. 247 law enforcement officers following Democrats everywhere they go, to their apartments, their offices, even on trips to the bathrooms. One Texas Democrat even says she was threatened with arrest after her police escort lost track of her while she was on a walk. All of that just to ensure that Republicans are not denied the quorum that they need to gerrymander the state's maps. But one Texas Democrat has refused to go along with the state sponsored surveillance. The Texas State Representative, Nicole Collier, refused to sign the permission slip allowing police to follow her. So now Republicans have locked her in the State House chamber, refusing to let her leave unless she agrees to be followed by police. Representative Collier has been detained on the state House floor for more than 24 hours at this point. She joins us now. Representative Collier, good to have you on the show. Thank you for being with us.

[Nicole Collier]

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

[Ali Velshi]

Tell me how we got to the situation with you and how you came to be stuck in the chamber.

[Nicole Collier]

So when quorum was restored, the speaker of the House insisted that he was going to keep the call on the House to ensure that there was a quorum for the next time that they come to pass their rigged maps. So he said that any Democrat that had broke quorum, if they want to leave the premises, they would have to sign a permission slip and agree to be released into the custody of the Department of Public Safety. Now, I don't know about you, but if you're going to be in the custody of law enforcement, it sounds like there's some type of criminal act that's going on, and this is far from it. We have a right to exercise civil disobedience. We have the right to exercise our ability to deny quorum under the Constitution. There's nothing criminal about it. So don't come in here and try to treat me like one. So I've had enough. I'm tired of them continuing to push and push and push and take and take and take. So now I'm going to stand against these tyrannical efforts to silence us.

[Ali Velshi]

So if you wanted to leave, they would insist that you sign this slip. And if you don't sign the slip and you want to leave, what happens?

[Nicole Collier]

I will not be able to leave. In fact, the doors have been locked to the Capitol. I am not permitted to leave. I asked if I was free to leave, and I was told, no, you are not free to leave. So I have have no other option but to stay here against my will until the call of the House has been lifted.

[Ali Velshi]

Do you have any sense that this is legal? Their ability to hold you locked up in the Texas legislature, even if it.

[Nicole Collier]

Is legal, it's not right. I'm a grown woman. I represent just as many people as the speaker and all the other colleagues in this body. And you don't treat me like a child in terms of exercising this type of control over the members. And so it's a way to demean your colleagues and to show that they have the upper hand. But what they didn't expect was for me to push back.

[Ali Velshi]

Tell me what you're hearing from your constituents.

[Nicole Collier]

Actually, there's overwhelming support. There have been large crowds gathering, saying, free. Let her go. Let her go. I'm so overwhelmed by the support fact today, Vice President Kamala Harris called to encourage the work that we're doing to raise awareness about standing up against bullies. We also just finished a call with Governor Hochul in New York, who is ready and ready to take action when needed. So, again, we didn't start the fight, but we'll finish it. And we've got reinforcements in California, New York, Illinois. We're ready.

[Ali Velshi]

Are you hearing at all from any of your Republican colleagues? You know, all of this coverage over the last several weeks, I assume has got to cause some embarrassment for them. This is kind of unheard of, right? This is, you're being held in this place so that you perhaps don't commit. It's not really a crime, as you clearly stated, but you don't do something that they don't want you to do. I mean, you really couldn't even do this to little kids. I think that would be actually illegal. Are there Republicans who are quietly saying to you this is ridiculous?

[Nicole Collier]

No, I have not heard from any Republicans that say that this is ridiculous. Everyone knows America knows that anytime your ability to roam freely, your freedoms are hindered, it's wrong and we won't stand for it. And so there have been Republicans and Democrat voters and independent voters who have seen through this. And they know that this is unfair and unjust and they are not taking it either. They don't want to stand for it either.

[Ali Velshi]

Talk to me about your family and what they think of this. And very practical question. Where do you sleep?

[Nicole Collier]

I slept in my chair. In fact, last night I slept in my chair. I intend to sleep in my chair. My daughters. In fact, this chamber is typically on 24 hour camera that it's live at all times. But they took that down the gallery. Usually the public is usually allowed to be in the gallery to watch any type of proceedings or to view the Capitol. The floor of the chamber, of the House chamber that has been closed down. So there is no transparency in this process. And it's just like the congressional redistricting hearings. There was no transparency. There was no actual listening to the voters. It was them trying to really just speed through the process so they can get what they want and appease Trump to provide those five congressional seats that he's asked for.

[Ali Velshi]

Tell me how this, how this sort of what happens next. I do hear that there are some of your colleagues who are thinking about ripping up their permission slips in solidarity with you. Is that House likely to get more crowded? Is this going to end it somehow? Are they going to realize this is stupid and let you go about your business without a police escort.

[Nicole Collier]

Well, my colleagues are here. I am so proud to be joined by six more of my colleagues who did rip up their papers, and they said no more. And they're standing in solidarity with what we're doing because they know this doesn't make any sense. It's just not right. This is ridiculous. The level or the depth that they will go to get what they want at the cost of basically refusing to have somebody be able to stay.

[Ali Velshi]

And you got this vote tomorrow morning. I believe it's scheduled for tomorrow morning. Obviously, at that point, you're going to have to depend on the fact that you and your Texas colleagues have made this enough of a national issue that others in Illinois, in California, in New York and elsewhere will take this up.

[Nicole Collier]

Absolutely. We're looking forward to continuing to fight tomorrow. We have a fight on our hands tomorrow. We're going to set the legal record, and then we're going to take it to the courts. And we're going to continue to raise national awareness about the importance of having fair elections and fair matters so that we can stop this lying and cheating and rigging of our elections by the Republican administration.

[Ali Velshi]

Texas State Representative Nicole Collier. We appreciate your time tonight. Thank you for being with us. We'll be right back.

[Nicole Collier]

Thank you.

[Ali Velshi]

There are certain jobs in government that come with a house. The president gets the White House, the vice president gets the Naval Observatory, and the head of the United States Coast Guard gets a spacious home right on the water. It's called Quarters One. Well, at least they're supposed to. But for now, the Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem has decided she'd prefer to live in the Coast Guard house instead. And despite holding a position that explicitly does not provide housing, she's living there rent free. Now, this has raised concern that Noem may be exploiting her DHS position for extra perks. But in a statement to The Washington Post, DHS spokeswoman Trisha McLaughlin insisted that that's not the case, that Noem's new living arrangements are simply for safety reasons. She basically said, have some humanity, and if you can't find the humanity, find it in a church. And then she included a link to the National Cathedral, which is super ironic, because if you actually click that link, you can find the cathedral's most recent public statement, which is a call to action from D.C. religious leaders, entitled fear is not a strategy for safety. It reads, quote from the White House, the president sees a lawless wasteland we beg to differ. We see fellow human beings, neighbors, workers, friends and family, each made in the image of God. We remain firm in our commitment to serve those in need. We call on our political and civic leaders to reject fear based governance and work together in a spirit of dignity and respect. End quote. Apparently no one sent that link to the Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem. That does it for me.

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Ali Velshi]

The more you can make that big group of pro democracy American feel like.

[Bill Taylor]

They'Re part of one big movement, the.

[Ali Velshi]

More powerful that gets and the more success we'll have.

[Nicole Wallace]

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