Trump to test courage of American voters with apparent intimidation tactics at the polls

Summary

The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode: Trump to test courage of American voters with apparent intimidation tactics at the polls
Date: October 25, 2025
Host: Jen Psaki (MSNBC)

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode centers on Donald Trump’s ongoing and escalating efforts to influence, intimidate, and control the American electoral process, particularly through the appointment of election deniers to key oversight roles and the deployment of federal election monitors in traditionally Democratic strongholds. Jen Psaki unpacks the latest moves from Trump’s allies, their broader implications for democracy, and the dangers posed by efforts to undercut the Voting Rights Act, congressional redistricting, and the tactic of targeting political adversaries with prosecutorial harassment. Key guests include Democratic strategist James Carville, election law expert Rick Hasen, and investigative journalist Michael Schmidt.

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MAIN THEMES & DISCUSSION POINTS

1. Trump’s Ambitions Beyond Constitutional Limits

• Steve Bannon, a key Trump confidant, stirs controversy by alluding to Trump seeking a third term—despite explicit constitutional prohibitions.
• Psaki emphasizes Trump’s open musing about serving beyond two terms and his use of “Trump 2028” merchandise as a form of trolling, but warns against dismissing these moves as mere provocation given Trump’s history and current actions.
  • Quote – Jen Psaki (00:46): “The Constitution explicitly bars Donald Trump from serving a third term as president. But that has not stopped him from openly musing about it, hasn't stopped him from falsely claiming there are legitimate ways to do it, and hasn't stopped him from promoting Trump 2028 merchandise...”

2. Election Intimidation and Monitoring Tactics

• The Trump administration is planning to send federal election monitors to select counties in California and New Jersey—areas with pivotal upcoming elections—raising alarms about intimidation and “trial runs” for 2026.
• These monitoring moves are critiqued as unprecedented in off-year elections and as a cover to empower known election deniers.
  • Quote – Jen Psaki (03:44): “Trump wants to put his handpicked lackeys in charge of monitoring elections...Trump officials who have been tapped for this election monitoring operation are these two ladies, Attorney General Pam Bondi and Trump’s head of the Civil Rights Division, Harmeet Dhillon, both of whom are election deniers, of course.”
• Psaki outlines the background and troubling track records of Bondi, Dhillon, and other recently appointed officials who’ve historically promoted false election narratives and conspiracies.

3. Weaponization of the Department of Justice Against Political Opponents

• Trump’s DOJ is pursuing weak criminal cases against Democratic politicians and Trump critics, including Letitia James, James Comey, and Adam Schiff—even as their own prosecutors warn there’s no evidence.
• The strategy, as examined with Michael Schmidt, is seen less about ultimate convictions and more about reputational damage, media spectacle, and intimidating adversaries through massive legal costs.
  • Quote – Michael Schmidt (40:32): “We have never seen retribution like this before…Not just Donald Trump trying to put his enemies behind bars. But additional types of scrutiny, shaming, and burdening those individuals.”

4. Collapse of Norms and Consequences for Democratic Participation

• Policies enacted by Trump and allies appear deliberately aimed at hurting core Democratic constituencies (e.g., ACA subsidies, infrastructure cancellation, government shutdowns) rather than courting votes.
• Carville and Psaki both highlight how the current moment is less about winning over voters than about suppressing opposition and insulating power, warning of escalating dangers as Trump’s team prepares for future contests.

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KEY INTERVIEWS AND MEMORABLE QUOTES

A. James Carville on the State of American Democracy

Timestamps: [13:06] – [25:41]

• Carville warns that the current administration’s corruption and underhanded tactics outpace anything in US history.
• On the seriousness of Trump and Bannon’s plots:
  • [13:50] James Carville: “You should take everything seriously. There has been more stealing and corruption in a little bit more than nine months in this administration than in the previous 249 years of American history.”
• Predicts Democratic victories in key races (New Jersey and Virginia) but warns this will provoke even more aggressive anti-democratic actions.
  • [16:48] James Carville: “There is no bottom to the depravity and the criminality and the corruption of these people. We can't imagine. We try to think of how bad can it get? And our minds just can't think like that.”
• On the public’s responsibility:
  • [19:52] James Carville: “Our campaign people just got to run the best campaign...But the public got to really exercise its power...We're in the bottom of the first inning here or something, at best at the top of the second...just getting started with the stealing.”
• On the bleakness of the moment:
  • [24:13] James Carville: “There's nothing else. I get to say what I want. I'm just telling you I'm one scared dude, really scared.”

B. Rick Hasen on Election Monitoring and the Real Threats

Timestamps: [27:50] – [34:46]

• Hasen details the unusual and concerning nature of the DOJ’s plans to send federal monitors for off-year local elections, noting the historical context is not applicable and suggesting intimidation and a test run for 2026.
  • [29:49] Rick Hasen: “It is unusual...The whole idea was to ensure free and fair elections. Well, so far as I know, there's no problem in those counties...So the question is, what are these federal monitors going to be looking for? It seems...they're going there at the supposed invitation of the state Republican parties claiming irregularities. I'm worried either that there might be an attempt at intimidation or more likely this is part of a longstanding Republican playbook…”
• Hasen assuages fears about Trump serving a third term, arguing constitutional and legal systems remain robust enough to block “wild” scenarios.
  • [33:30] Rick Hasen: “Remember who Steve Bannon is? He’s the guy who said we have to flood the zone with shit...I'm much more concerned about the security and fairness of the elections in 2026 than I am about a potential Trump third term in 2028.”

C. Michael Schmidt on DOJ Prosecutions and Trump’s Retribution Playbook

Timestamps: [40:32] – [44:42]

• Schmidt reveals how the DOJ is being weaponized for “naming and shaming” rather than legal merit, undermining norms and hollowing out the department.
  • [42:40] Michael Schmidt: “You can only bring [a case] if you think you can win a trial and if you think you can win upon appeal...And that’s why Eric Sieber [former U.S. Attorney] told Justice Department officials that he didn’t think that there was a case to be made.”
• On the toll within DOJ:
  • [43:59] Michael Schmidt: “How much has it really been hollowed out, how many people have truly left, what do those numbers look like and who is still there?...Does that mean it's an experienced prosecutor that is going to be able to face up against these high-powered white collar defense lawyers…?”

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TIMESTAMPS FOR SIGNIFICANT SEGMENTS

• [00:46] – [05:02]: Psaki’s dissection of Trump’s illegal third term talk, introduction of new election monitors, and background of appointees.
• [13:06] – [25:41]: Extended conversation with James Carville on election threats, Democratic strategy, and the danger posed by the current administration.
• [27:50] – [34:46]: Rick Hasen on the historical context and modern misuse of federal election monitors, and the risks for future elections.
• [40:32] – [44:42]: Michael Schmidt on the DOJ’s weaponization, effects on American institutions, and consequences for those inside and outside the system.

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TONE AND ATMOSPHERE

The episode is urgent, sobering, and unflinching, with both the host and guests warning that American democracy is under unprecedented attack. The tone is simultaneously analytical and alarmed, with wariness about the future balanced by calls for the public to respond not with resignation, but action.

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CONCLUSION: CALL TO ACTION

• The episode closes on a note of warning and mobilization—acknowledging fear as a rational and necessary response, but urging listeners not to turn away from democratic participation.
  • [25:14] Jen Psaki: “People should be scared out there, but they should also feel they should use that fear to get out there and not be scared about participating in the process. And that's a key part...”

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This summary includes all critical themes, memorable lines, and structural highlights, providing a comprehensive guide to the episode for those who have not listened.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

In any other political era, this is something I would roll my eyes at. I mean, something I'd say, let's not spend too much time on it. And I honestly, I sincerely hope that one day we get back to that world. I think we all do. But since we are living in this era, in this completely messed up moment in time, I think it's important that you hear this from one of the architects of Donald Trump's MAGA movement, his former campaign manager and adviser, Steve Bannon.

[James Carville]

He's going to get a third term. So Trump 28. Trump is going to be President 28. And people just ought to get accommodated with that.

[Podcast Host]

So what about the 22nd Amendment?

[James Carville]

There's many different alternatives. At the appropriate time, we'll lay out what the plan is. But there's a plan, and President Trump.

[Podcast Host]

Will be the president in 2018. Okay, let's start just with all the caveats. I mean, Steve Bannon says things like that to get attention. He rouses the attention. He spends hours on television or kind of on his own streaming service every day. He loves the pot stirring. But this isn't really about Steve Bannon. It's actually about his former boss, Donald Trump, and how far he is willing to go when his supporters and former advisors and anyone who's in his ear eggs him on like that. I mean, let's be perfectly clear here, as that question during that interview alluded to. The Constitution explicitly bars Donald Trump from serving a third term as president. But that has not stopped him from openly musing about it, hasn't stopped him from falsely claiming there are legitimate ways to do it, and hasn't stopped him from promoting Trump 2028 merchandise, and not even just to his supporters. I mean, he's definitely doing it to them. Remember when Trump 2028 hats just kind of randomly appeared in the Oval Office during his meeting with Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer, of all people? I mean, that happened. And maybe you think all of that is just trolling. Maybe some of it is just Trump trying to get a rise out of his critics. After all, it's not what he says that matters, right? It's what he actually does. But when you look at what Donald Trump is actually doing when it comes to our elections, the prospect of him trying to defy the Constitution to remain in office doesn't seem so hard to believe. And I'm not just talking about his last failed attempt to illegally stay in power on January 6th. I'm talking about things he is doing and his administration is doing right now. I mean, today the Justice Department announced that it plans to send election monitors to about a half dozen counties in California and New Jersey to monitor polling sites during their upcoming elections happening just 11 days from now. And some of those counties just happen to be where key congressional races will take place a year from now, which is definitely not a coincidence. We should see all of this as a trial run. And I'm going to speak with a top election lawyer who also lives in California about this later in the show. Look, election monitoring is something past administrations have done, usually not in off year elections. But let's also just put this in a bit of context. Trump's allies are trying to overturn a key section of the Voting Rights Act. Trump is sending military into the streets of American cities in part to intimidate people from participating in the democratic process. They've been pressuring, as we all know, we've been covering this a lot. Republican leaders in red states across the country to redo their congressional maps to steal back seats. And now Trump wants to put his handpicked lackeys in charge of monitoring elections. That's not to mention that the Trump officials who have been tacked for this election monitoring operation are these two ladies, Attorney General Pam Bondi and Trump's head of the Civil Rights Division, Harmeet Dhillon, both of whom are election deniers, of course. I mean, in the days after the 2020 election, Pam Bondi, who had already been one of Trump's lawyers during his impeachment trial, sued the state of Pennsylvania, falsely claiming that Trump won the state he actually lost by 80,000 votes. We are still on the ground in Pennsylvania. I'M here right now and we are not going anywhere until they declare that we won Pennsylvania. The good residents who are all supporting us in Pennsylvania, their votes don't count by these fake ballots that are coming in late. And back to the observation, they're not letting us watch the process.

[Rick Hassan]

Pam, did you just say fake ballots?

[Podcast Host]

There could be. That's the problem. Of course there were not fake ballots. There was no legitimate evidence of fake ballots. But Pam Bondi went out and promoted Trump's conspiracy theory that the election had been stolen. And now Trump is putting her in charge of monitoring polling places. And Trump's other new top election monitor is definitely not any better. Harmeet Dhillon was also an advisor to Trump's 2020 election campaign. And just like Bondi, she spent that time promoting false election conspiracies. And she even called upon Trump's conservative Supreme Court appointees to put politics over principle and help overturn the results. While we're waiting for the United States Supreme Court, of which the President has nominated three justices, to step in and do something, and hopefully Amy Coney Barrett will come through and pick it up, she then continued to promote those same debunked election conspiracies for years after that. A few unelected bureaucrats or elected perhaps change the outcome of an election in a few counties, and that changes the outcome of the national election. That's what happened in 2020. Pure conspiracy theorists right there. Now, she frequently also refers to the Democratic Party as enemies. With some pretty colorful and pretty out there comparisons. We can identify our enemies by a number of names. You can call them socialists, communists, they've been called Maoists at times, critical theorists, postmodernists, post colonialists. Sometimes they're fascists. Some of them call themselves proudly Democrats, but it doesn't matter which name they use because they're all synonyms for Marxism. And just listen to how she talks about voting in the very states where she will soon be in charge of monitoring elections. Big states like California, which has over 40 million people, and some other liberal states, and frankly some conservative jurisdictions as well, have done a pretty poor job of making sure that only current people entitled to vote are actually voting and eligible to vote in their states.

[James Carville]

What's a bigger threat? Vladimir Putin interfering in the election or corrupt Democrat officials interfering in the election?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, definitely the latter. Donald Trump is giving election deniers like her that unprecedented new power over our elections. And Pam Bondi and Harmeet Dhillon are not the only ones in positions of power. Heather Honey is a longtime leader in the election denier movement. And in 2020, she misrepresented voter data to falsely claim Pennsylvania had reported more votes than voters, a lie that Trump, of course, went on to repeat. And after Trump won the 2024 election, Heather Honey argued that he could declare a national emergency to take control of elections from state and local governments. And that recommendation apparently sounded so ingenious to Trump, he appointed her to an election integrity job at the Department of Homeland Security. Likewise, conservative activist Marcy McCarthy spread debunked claims about voting machines in Georgia during the 2020 election. Trump made her the director of public affairs at our nation's top cybersecurity agency. I mean, these are just some of the people who will have key roles in government during the next election. And each day we get more and more alarming indications about what they might be ready to. You might remember a few months ago when the Washington Post reported that the Pentagon was preparing a rapid response force for crowd control across the country. Well, yesterday, Pete Hegseth did not deny those reports that the Pentagon is indeed preparing that rapid response force ahead of the midterms, saying he could not give, quote, particulars on something that may be in the planning process that's not that comforting. Now, taking all of that together, it gets easier and easier to imagine that Trump himself is actively considering ways to hold onto Power in 2028, or at the very least, that he will abuse his power to help his Republican allies try to stay in office in 2026. These are clearly not the actions of a party that thinks it can rely on the support of voters to stay in power or their own policies. I mean, when you look at how they are running the country right now, it's like they're not even trying to win over voters. They are actively fighting Democrats in Congress over the extension of health care subsidies, which means costs are going to go way up for a lot of people unless something is done. A new analysis from the Washington Post finds that voters who get their health care from the Affordable Care act marketplace will see their premiums rise by an average of 30% if Republicans get their way. Now, at a time when the cost of living is the number one concern for most voters, they're doing that. We've seen electricity prices rise by nearly 10% on Trump's watch. On the verge of a critical election in New Jersey, Trump is canceling a major infrastructure project in that state in order to punish Democrats. On verge of another critical election in the swing state of Virginia, Trump's budget cuts and government shutdown has led to huge lines. You can see them there at Virginia's at food banks, as Virginia's many federal workers go without pay. Absolutely nothing they seem to be doing right now seems geared towards winning more voters, winning more people over. You can't really look at a single thing they're doing and think the goal of that policy is to win popular support. So when the president's top allies start encouraging him to ignore the Constitution, to hold onto power, when the president is clearly gearing up to suppress the vote in any way that he can, we kind of have to pay attention. But this country is still a democracy. Elections do still matter. It's going to require clear and decisive victory at the ballot box to prove Americans will not be intimidated by by these tactics. Someone with a lot of experience winning big national races, veteran campaign strategist James Carville joins me here in just 90 seconds. If low energy, weight gain or a drop in sex drive are holding you back, testosterone replacement therapy from Henry Meds may help you reclaim your edge. Their TRT treatments are backed by trusted providers who understand men's Health. It's 100% online and discreet and includes free labs for a flat monthly fee. Start your journey towards strength and performance. Visit henrymeds.com trt to learn more and get $50 off today. Not all patients are eligible. Results may vary. Consult a healthcare provider to determine if treatment is right for you.

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[Podcast Host]

As promised. Joining me now is legendary Democratic strategist James Carville. James Carville, I think you're watching a game tonight. I appreciate you taking the time to chat politics with me. I always enjoy it.

[James Carville]

Dodgers up on nothing. Let's play. Good game.

[Podcast Host]

All right. Well, keep us updated. People watching at home care, too.

[James Carville]

There you go.

[Podcast Host]

All right. Let me start by asking you. I don't like indulging Steve Bannon any more than you do, but I think it's important to put his comments he made over the last couple of days kind of in the context of everything else they are doing to, I would just say, screw around with our elections. How seriously do you think we should be taking this, this notion that Trump, they're past him serving a third term, that he wants to.

[James Carville]

You should take everything seriously. There has been more stealing and corruption in a little bit more nine months in this administration has been the previous 249 years of American history. But I have good news. Instead of Mike Tyson, he hits you so hard, it changes the way you taste. They're going to get hit so hard in the New Jersey and Virginia a week from Tuesday that it's going to change the way they taste. And then when these increases in these health care premiums go out to people and they get to stick a shot, you're not going to believe it. And every person you saw, every fellow employee in that food line is going to wait longer in the voting line, right? These are people, dignified people that have dedicated their careers to serving this country and they've been dumped by the wayside. And they're coming out, Jen. I mean, and they come, they're coming out big. So let's, when they see the inevitable coming, they're going to steal more and they're going to do more things they can to stop this election. And I, no one has any confidence in the Supreme Court. So there's a lot that, you know, people come up to me and they say, oh, James, I'm so scared. I said, you're not scared enough. You're not remotely scared enough. The stealing, the thievery, the corruption that goes on and goes on in the executive branch, in the Supreme Court is unbelievable. I mean, I saw my friend Doug Brinkley on a little bit on the show right before this. You cannot believe what they do. And you know what? They're doing it to the east wing is child's play compared to the other stuff they're doing.

[Podcast Host]

It's, I mean, the pardoning of an absolute crook from the crypto industry this week. Everything, all the money they're making. Let me ask you, because it's just completely. We try to talk about it a ton, but there's so much that's happening that we may not even know about. So let's just say, cuz I love this prediction that they're gonna, the Democrats are gonna win in Virginia, win in New Jersey, which seems like a harder race. That's what you think?

[James Carville]

I think they're going to win and I don't think it's gonna be close. I'm looking at. I won't be satisfied unless we win by at least five in New Jersey and at least 10 in Virginia. And frankly, I think we're gonna do both. I really honestly do.

[Podcast Host]

Now, let's say that happens. Okay. Because that seems like to me it would incentivize Trump and his lackeys to do even crazier stuff, right?

[James Carville]

It will.

[Podcast Host]

They have no limits here. So they're trying to kind of redistrict their way to get more seats. They're trying to make it harder to vote. This whole polling election, polling monitoring, which as you know, feels very sketchy in California and New Jersey. Do you think the apparatus out there, there's. It's the Democratic Party, but it's more than that. Is ready for that, is prepared for it.

[James Carville]

No. And the public's gonna have to do this. I mean, yeah, you had seven people, seven million people turn out the public anger when they do this. You know, there's a river in Louisiana called Chaffalaya and the legend is it has no bottom. Right. There is no bottom to the depravity and the criminality and the corruption of these people. We can't imagine. We try to think of how, how bad can it get? And our minds just can't think like that. I mean, it's, it's impossible. And you have. And Bannon is probably the smartest of all of actually talking about, oh no, we're just going to stay in office in 2028. Let me tell you. John Roberts will be fine with that. He. That will not. That will cause him no problem at all to do a little workaround of the 22nd Amendment that is a minor impediment. You people, I'm telling you, you're scared. You're not scared enough. Some Calvary's coming in November in New Jersey and Virginia, but there's a lot left and we're going to recruit some really good candidates here. Coming into 2026, American politics attitude is going to change, but it's only going to make them work. It's only going to make it more dangerous for the country. Understand that they're not going to stop. They'd make money hand over foot. And they know if they ever go out of power, they're all going to the penitentiary. I mean, they know that.

[Podcast Host]

The thing that seems hard to me, and obviously you and I worked on different presidential elections, but between the two of us we've done a few, we've done a bunch is those were all about who had better policies, right? Who had better turnout apparatuses. I mean there were a lot, I mean some of it, right? A lot of it. This now is a different universe. So if you're running a campaign for Senate or for Congress or for a governor's race, how much do you have to worry about all these shenanigans out there trying to make it harder for people to vote, scaring people from voting? What do you do about that? Or do you not worry about it and try to just win by so much?

[James Carville]

Right. I mean, we have a bucket load of lawyers. Again, we don't have, we have a utterly corrupt Supreme Court that you have to pay. You have to follow their views because whatever they have rulings, you gotta follow it. But no person, no decent American should trust the Supreme Court. They don't read the law, okay? They don't look at staring decisis of that legislative intent or any of that nonsense. They're an adjunct at a Republican party. It is very dangerous. This is a very dangerous time in American history. People need to know that, they need to act appropriately. I'm as serious as I can be. And you know, it starts it's going to help when we win elections, but that's just going to, that, that's just going to accelera corruption at the Supreme Court and the executive branch of this government. That's just going to make them more desperate. It really is.

[Podcast Host]

So let me ask you, I agree with you. I know. I think it's going to make them crazier and do crazier, more extreme things. So then if you're sitting at home.

[James Carville]

Hasn'T told where people are going to lose this election, I turn to you on one network telling people to watch another network election night. All they're going to cover is Mandani, okay? You're not even going to know what happened in Virginia and New Jersey, because they haven't told. They think all of their people think they're doing great. You look at the AP University of Chicago poll. I mean, they're dropping like flies. I mean, it's just all over the place. And it's going to continue. All right? But that is only good. That's the good news. And our campaign people just got to run the best campaign that they can. And then our legal people, but the public got to really exercise its power, its influence, and they got to do what they did when they showed up at this. They're going to be called on to show up more. To put it paraphrase you, we're in the bottom of the first inning here or something, at best at the top of the second. Remember, he's only a little more than nine months into what, a 36 month? No, 12 times. Yeah. He's only nine months into this, into four years. Barely getting started with the stealing.

[Podcast Host]

We're scratching now. Let me. Okay, let me ask you about that, because this is the other thing that struck me about Bannon's comments. Trump is 79. Sorry, I just aged him 79 years old. If he served another 47 years, he'd be 87 years old. This is crazy. But here's what he didn't do. Bannon didn't talk about an heir. He didn't talk about JD Vance. What does that tell you? It tells me some things. What does it tell you?

[James Carville]

Bannon is making money hand over foot. They're all making money hand over foot. They not, as we say in South Louisiana. They're not studying about. No. J.D. vance. All right. They in there right now trying to maximize as much as they can get as fast as they can get it. And I. I think we're going to do very well electorally, But I think that's only going to accelerate their craziness, their thievery, their authoritarianism, their lawlessness. But look at what they do. And if I want to add a bathroom to my house that I'm sitting in right here, I got. I got to get 16 permits, right? They just wrecked place that we know. We know well. They just took a wrecking ball to the whole White House and did. And now they. It is unbelievable. This is so big. The size and the magnitude of this. It's. People just still can't comprehend it yet. We don't know how to cover it, we don't know how to talk about it. We don't know how to think about it because it's so unimaginable. And that's what they're counting out. This is going to get people. Listen to me, what they just getting started. They're just getting started. And when they start seeing they're losing it, going to get crazier and crazier and they're going to redistrict white. Remember this. Indiana wouldn't go along with it. Now, Kansas wouldn't go along with it. If you're a Republican out there, remember Trump doesn't care about you. He hates you. And you better watch out because if you look at the Republican number in these polls, it's starting to go down a little bit. And he'll say he hates, he hates the United States, he hates the Republican Party, he hates any kind of system that we have here, any kind of rules. And they're gonna. I hate to be like this, being an old man, but I'm telling you, we had a really dangerous point in the United States. And I believe that from the bottom of my heart and a lot of other people I know that are really smart historians, people that know this totally agree with me. It's bad, it's dangerous.

[Podcast Host]

I think there's no question about it. And it's this very difficult line between not wanting people to feel scared and wanting to be direct about what the hell is happening, which is what we try to do, to be scared.

[James Carville]

But you have no option. I'm sorry. I like hope and I'm the man from Hope and you know the Obama Hope poster and the hope and hope Hope is gone bank. Hope is not anywhere around here. We're war up against the as a country, we up against the wall and right now there is no hope. There is fear. And people are justified to be afraid. And they need to do everything that they possibly can in their own simple way to profess their love for this country, their love for the traditions and the laws and the customs and the history that we have in the progress we made because it's all this is likely as not that we blow a gasket again. I know I'm being somewhat hysterical here, but I can't. I'm an old man. There's nothing else. I get to say what I want. I'm just telling you I'm one scared dude, really scared.

[Podcast Host]

James Carville. I think people should be scared out there, but they should also feel they should use that fear to get out there and not be scared about participating in the process. And that's a key part of their.

[James Carville]

Message, I think, too. Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

James Cardell, thank you for taking a break.

[James Carville]

I may suck it down.

[Rick Hassan]

No, no, no.

[Podcast Host]

We gotta hear it. But people gotta know so that they feel do their little things. That's the most important thing for people to hear. Go back to that game. Thanks for taking the time.

[Michael Schmidt]

All right.

[James Carville]

Yeah. You're back. Good luck to you.

[Angie Hicks]

All right.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. Still to come, New York Attorney General Letitia James pleads not guilty to charges that nobody wanted to bring except Donald Trump and his most loyal flunkies. But first news today out of the Justice Department has one of the top election law experts in the country warning of a test run for 2026. And he joins me next.

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[Podcast Host]

Okay, I mentioned this news briefly earlier in the show, but I just wanted to go into it in a little bit more detail, Trump's Justice Department announced plans today to deploy election monitors to polling sites in two states next month. California, where voters will decide whether or not to fight Trump's plan to steal congressional seats through redistricting. And New Jersey, where there is a big bellwether race for governor we were just talking about. Now, federal election monitors are not entirely unusual, but what is very unusual about this decision is the fact that the Trump administration is doing this during an off year election when there are no candidates running for federal office. According to democracy Docket, in the past 20 years, DOJ has only sent election monitors in off year elections twice, in 2007 and in 2013. And let's just zoom in on where they are doing this. Among the six jurisdictions where Attorney General Pam Bondi is sending federal poll watchers, five are in California and one is in New Jersey. And you can see them right here on your screen there. That's the list of them. Now, four of those counties, Kern County, Riverside county and Fresno County, California, along with the usually solid blue Passaic County, New Jersey, they all swung for Trump in the last presidential election. Plus Orange county and Los Angeles county are two counties with competitive House races next year. These counties are important for various reasons. They were not chosen at random, which is why today one of the top election law experts in the country, Rick Hassan, called this test run, called this a Test run for 2026. Rick Hassan is the director of Safeguarding Democracy Project and professor of political science at the UCLA School of Law, and he joins me now. Thank you so much for being here. I think all of us are just trying to make sense of this and what it really means. I agree with you. I think it's a powerful thing for people to hear that this is a Test run for 2026, and people should hear that. Tell us, though, from your vantage point as an elections legal expert, what is that? Why do you describe it that way? Why do you see it that way? Sure.

[Rick Hassan]

Well, it is unusual for the Department of Justice to send in monitors. We should talk about when it started. It started back in the 1960s, back when Southern states were depriving black voters of the ability to vote. You had to send in federal registrars to register voters, monitors to make sure that polls were being open. And the whole idea was to ensure free and fair elections. Well, so far as I know, there's no problem in those counties that you identified with free and fair elections. And so the question is, what are these federal monitors going to be looking for. It seems like they're going there at the supposed invitation of the state Republican parties claiming irregularities. I'm worried either that there might be an attempt at intimidation or more likely this is part of a longstanding Republican playbook to threaten sending election monitors, election challengers, election observers into polling places, perhaps to try to deter those voters from showing up. And if these are going to be the places where they're going to be competitive congressional races in 2026, they might want to see how things go first in 2025 in an off year election before they expand what they might do in perhaps in areas around the country where there are going to be competitive congressional elections.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, and a couple of those areas in California could be, would likely be, potentially be in 2026. I wanted to ask you about this, this one area of New Jersey because I, and I always like to prebut explanations. So the justification from DOJ to the degree they answer questions about it will be, they will make it about this 2020 investigation that was launched by the then state attorney general involving multiple Patterson city council members, which resulted in charges being filed. I would guess that that's gonna be their explanation for why they need election monitors there. But what do you think about them going to that county specifically and what could be how they will justify it or is there just for it at all?

[Rick Hassan]

Well, so there are pockets around the country. We saw this in North Carolina in a Republican congressional race back in 2018, and we saw it in 2020 in the, this Patterson, New Jersey race where you had elected officials apparently manipulating absentee ballots to try to swing the results of an election. And you know, it's really hard to try and do that because we have so many safeguards. That's why there have been indictments, that's why there have been and attempts to remove some of these people from office. But even what happened there, that was an election that took place during COVID nothing taking place in polling places. Very hard to see what the connection would be there. And of course these areas are going to be under county control, not city control. So it's really hard to understand what the connection would be between what DOJ is saying they're trying to protect against and the actual problems that we saw five years ago in this small city in New Jersey.

[Podcast Host]

Unless it's just it's a state that is becoming more purple and they want to do a test run, as you've kind of said, which may be the actual justification. I wanted to ask you, while I have you, I was Just talking with my last guest, James Carville, just about some of the comments of Steve Bannon and the political how seriously we should take it, declaring of course that Trump is going to run in 2028 and they somehow have multiple plans for how they're going to skirt around the 22nd Amendment. I wanted to first get your thoughts about it, but also help explain to our viewers who are kind of freaked out when they hear that how states and the courts can make sure the law is upheld if they attempt to do this.

[Rick Hassan]

Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head when you talked about the fear and I heard James Carville talk about being afraid. Remember who Steve Bannon is? He's the guy who said we have to flood the zone with shit. We need to make liberals heads explode. That's exactly what he's trying to do. I mean, this is getting coverage on cable news and elsewhere because it's scary, the thought that Trump might try to get around the Constitution through some convoluted scheme, maybe where JD Vance runs for president and Trump runs as vice president and then JD Vance resigns or the Supreme Court totally ignores the language of the 22nd Amendment and an 83 year old person who is very low in popularity is actually going to run for president and successfully run. And is he going to run against Barack Obama who then also be able to get a third term? I'm much more concerned about the security and fairness of the elections in 2026 than I am about a potential Trump third term in 2028.

[Podcast Host]

That's a very important reminder. There are a lot of elections before then. We never want to kind of overstate or scare people. But given the context of all of this, I just wanted to ask you about it and obviously my last question guest about it. Rakastin, thank you so much for being here and helping make sense of everything we're seeing out there. I really appreciate it.

[Rick Hassan]

My pleasure.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. Coming up, we're gonna take a quick break, but coming up, Donald Trump's revenge tour is going very, very badly for Donald Trump. And I'll explain when we Today, New York Attorney General Letitia James spent the morning in a federal courthouse in Virginia pleading not guilty to two counts related to allegations of mortgage fraud that are widely believed to be completely baseless. Charges that President Trump personally, publicly and repeatedly has pushed for. Just last month, the US Attorney who initially oversaw the case, the Eastern District of Virginia's Eric Siebert, left the office after reportedly refusing to bring these charges against James because of the lack of evidence. Though Siebert said he resigned, Trump claimed publicly felt the need to, that he fired him. Either way, he wouldn't bring the case, so he was just forced out. Now, Trump then appointed one of his former personal criminal defense attorneys, a former beauty queen with no prosecutorial experience whatsoever, Lindsey Halligan, to take over the office, who promptly indicted James despite the reported lack of evidence. This is all giving you a whole bunch deja vu. It is not deja vu. It's not you. It's the news. I mean, just two weeks ago, it was former FBI Director James Comey, another of Trump's perceived enemies, pleading not guilty to the charges brought against him. Those charges also came from Trump's handpicked and newly appointed U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, Lindsey Halligan. Prosecutors in that case also told Halligan there was no there there, writing a detailed declination memo to Halligan explaining that after months of investigating, they did not believe there was enough evidence to secure an indictment, let alone a conviction. But again, Halligan indicted Comey anyway. Both Comey and James have requested speedy trials so they can have a chance to prove their innocence as soon as possible. Now, Comey's trial is set for January 5th. Letitia James trial is set for January 26th. There is a clear pattern here, and we just got yet another example of it. Yesterday, MSNBC's Carol Lennig and Kendelanian were the first to report that the federal prosecutor in charge of investigating California Senator Adam Schiff told her bosses in D.C. that she does not believe the case is strong enough to move forward. NBC News matched and advanced that reporting, writing that after months of investigating, the federal prosecutors in Maryland leading the probe have not produced enough evidence to bring charges. So the U.S. attorney overseeing the investigation met with Deputy Attorney General and former Trump personal criminal attorney Todd Blanche to ask how she should proceed. And while Blanche denies that meeting ever happened, NBC News reports that the decision out of that meeting was for the prosecutor to keep the case alive anyway. Now, the good news here is that these cases are all so transparently weak, they are all but destined to fail. The Comey and James cases may not even make it to trial. Both Comey and James have filed motions to dismiss their cases on the grounds that the charges were brought vindictively and by a US Attorney whose appointment may not have been legal to begin with. That's where we're at in 2025. But the point of these cases for Trump may not actually be to bring them to trial. Let me show you what I mean. Well, before any indictment was filed, Trump DOJ official Ed Martin was playing dress up as Columbo outside of Letitia James New York home, posing for photos for the New York Post. I'm not going to show them because they should be published to begin with, but conservative media has been publishing hit piece after hit piece after hit piece, not just about James, but about relatives of hers who were not even public officials. Trump himself has been repeatedly publicly calling for Comey, James and Schiff to be prosecuted. At one point, name checking all three of them and saying they were, quote, guilty as hell. Okay. Trump pushing these criminal allegations, whether there is any there there or not, whether they result in convictions or not, is a way for Trump to hurt his perceived enemies. These investigations mean massive legal defense costs. They invite tons of press coverage and public scrutiny. And even if the allegations are completely baseless, they can do real reputational damage. New York Times investigative reporter Michael Schmidt has been following all of these cases closely and investigating how the cases are hurting Trump's perceived enemies before and if they ever go to trial. He joins me live next. As Donald Trump continues to demand the Department of Justice target his political enemies, and the department's cases against them seem to keep unraveling. Here's what Michael Schmidt wrote today in the New York Times. He wrote, quote, it is becoming clear that creating the trappings of criminality, the headlines, the scrutiny, the reputational damage, is as much a part of the formula as any realistic chance of conviction. Joining me now is Michael Schmidt. He's an investigative reporter for the New York Times. I will tell you my many years as a press person that when I still see your name, you're such a good investigative reporter, it still makes me nervous, like I'm in trouble. So. But it's great toit's great to have you here. So let me. Your story was so interesting because this is something that I feel like a lot of people have been saying, lawyers, Andrew Weissman, others, about a lot of these targeted prosecutions or targeted indictments. Your reporting seems to suggest that these DOJ indictments against Trump's perceived political enemies are kind of part of this larger strategy, and conviction is not necessarily the end goal. So if you look, tell me a little bit more, you look to the inner circle, Trump and the people around him, do they, Are they not concerned that they're not on track to win any of these? That's not that really what they care about. It sounds like you're saying.

[Michael Schmidt]

I think some of the reporting shows that when Justice Department officials were told Time and time again that these cases were not strong enough to result in convictions. They still wanted them to be brought anyway, and the President still wanted them to be brought anyway. And you have to understand, we're all in a education about retribution. We have never seen retribution like this before. And I think our initial understandings of it was that it was a tit for tat kind of thing, that Donald Trump wanted to put his enemies behind bars. And I think what we're seeing as retribution plays out is that that is an element of it, and that is a possibility, and that is probably the most significant thing. But there are these other things that come with it. There are additional types of scrutiny. There's an additional type of shaming. It's what these charges do to the individual and how they weigh them down that I think that we didn't totally have an understanding of until we were able to see it in the way that we have, because we've. We know what it's like for someone to be under investigation, for them to be charged and go to trial. That has gone on in American history for decades, but we have never seen retribution like this. So what are the byproducts of it? What are the other things that come with it? And that's what we're trying to say is that it's more than just Donald Trump trying to put his enemies behind bars.

[Podcast Host]

That the headlines and the legal fees and their reputational impact, which is very hard to manage for a lot of these people, even though a lot of them are fighting back, is part of the goal. One of the things I've been curious about, and I know done a lot of reporting on this too, is there are a lot of lawyers. It's not just Lindsey Halligan, obviously. I mean, she's moving forward against the recommendations of everybody in her, her office. But who are watching this happen, this sort of shame game of sorts, shaming targets rather than having strong legal cases. When you talk to people who are still working in the Justice Department and in these departments, how do they feel about this strategy that's happening, people who are still there, who have been there for a long time?

[Michael Schmidt]

Well, I think if you take someone like Eric Siebert as an example, Eric Siebert knew that the cases weren't strong enough, and he knew that there were ethical guidelines that said that if you didn't think the case was strong enough, you couldn't bring it. And you can't bring a case because you're there to name and shame and embarrass someone. And Tarnish them. You can only bring it if you think you can win a trial and if you think you can win upon appeal. And that's why Eric Sieber told Justice Department officials that he didn't think that there was a case to be made. He was someone who was a Trump U.S. attorney, as full and through as he could be. He really wanted to be there. And if he could have indicted this case, he would have. But ethically he thought that there was a problem where this is not about naming and shaming. It's not about embarrassing. It's about proving beyond a reasonable doubt and then having that case survive an appeal. And he didn't think that that was there and that's why he provided the counsel that he did and that's why he was fired.

[Podcast Host]

Yet there's still people who are, I mean, they're in this tough position, I guess is my point. Right. A lot of these Justice Department lawyers, people who are seeing this strategy be implemented. Do you think there's going to be more of a mass exodus of people if this continues, I guess, from some of these U.S. attorney's offices?

[Michael Schmidt]

Well, I think the thing that we don't totally understand or appreciate is how diminished the department is. How much has it really been hollowed out, how many people have truly left, what do those numbers look like and who is still there? I think that in any sort of situation, you can probably find someone to bring a case. But does that mean it's an experienced prosecutor that is going to be able to face up against these high powered white collar defense lawyers who are lining up to defend Letitia James and James Comey? You know, in that sense, there's a huge advantage for the defense in the fact that there's only so many prosecutors folks in the department who want to and are willing to work on these cases.

[Podcast Host]

Michael Schmidt, thank you. I'll stop being scared. Scared of you. You're a good reporter and love reading your pieces. Thank you so much for staying up with me on a Friday. We have to sneak in a very quick break. We'll be right back. Okay. That does that for me this week. That does it for me this week. It's Cybersecurity awareness month and LifeLock is here with tips to help protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams. And for comprehensive identity protection, Lifelock is your best choice. LifeLock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe, and stay protected with a 30 day free [e-mail] Specialoffer terms apply.