← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
Trump's clown car Cabinet lives up to the name
00:41:20
Jen Psaki checks in on "some of the most incompetent people this country has ever seen," some of the higher profile members of Donald Trump's administration, and finds they have not grown to fill their positions and remain a source of humiliation for Trump.
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Host Jen
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Host Jen
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Host Jen
Drink responsibly. Being reported by Carlinport, Chicago, Illinois. Lots to cover tonight. Let me start with this. Donald Trump has been humiliated a lot lately. I mean, a lot. And most of the time that is because of his own behavior. He's really done it to himself. No one made him fall asleep in the Oval Office, for example, but it's also because he surrounded himself with people like this. I mean, those are two of Donald Trump's top law enforcement officials right there featured in that fixture. That's Kristi Noem in those super stylish glasses on her red carpet and her red carpet sidekick Kash Patel, spending their weekend hanging out in a pink Lego race car while attending a Formula one race in Las Vegas. Now you would be hard pressed, very, very hard pressed to find an example of a previous FBI director or DHS secret nevermind together in any comparable photos. And if this was a one off incident, you might forgive them for having kind of, you know, a little bit of fun after their rigors of their very important day jobs. But for Trump's cabinet, living like a C list celebrity is the job. And no one seems to do it better than Kash Patel because the FBI director has been using federal resources for a lot of trips that don't sound at all FBI related. I mean, he has repeatedly used a government jet for recreational travel, including a golf trip with friends at a private island in Scotland, for example. Doesn't sound FBI related. That's not to mention his use of a government plane to attend a wrestling event in Pennsylvania, as well as a getaway to a Texas hunting resort called the Boondoggle Ranch. I mean, of all hunting resorts, Kash Patel could have visited the Boondoggle Ranch. Now, on top of all of that, Patel has also redirected SWAT team agents from critical duties, presumably like respond to actual emergencies to serve as the personal security detail for his 27 year old girlfriend. You can see a picture there right there on your screen. And now his headline obsessed boss, Donald Trump is reportedly having second thoughts about choosing him to lead the country's top law enforcement agency. Msnow reported today that Trump is considering removing Cash Patel as FBI director in the coming months as he and his top aides have grown increasingly frustrated by the unflattering headlines Patel has recently generated, according to three people with knowledge of the situation. Now, if that were to happen, Patel would have had the shortest tenure of any confirmed FBI director in history, making it through only about a year of what is supposed to be a 10 year term that spans multiple presidencies. And this is how the White House decided to try and push back on that reporting. A spokesperson told msNow President Trump has assembled the most talented and impressive administration in history and they are doing an excellent job carrying out the President's agenda. FBI Director Patel is a critical member of the president's team and he is working tirelessly to restore integrity to the FBI. He seemed like he was working tirelessly in those photos. Now, I will tell you, I know from experience that when the White House statement is any version of the president has confidence in or this cabinet member is a part of a great overall team, just look at the whole team. It isn't typically a very good sign. But she really left us an opening there with that statement. And it got us wondering, what are the other members of the most talented and impressive administration in history up to these days? Well, let's start with the other member of Kash Patel's pit crew, DHS Secretary Kristi Noem. Now, when she isn't spending her days playing cowgirl dress up or riding around in Lego cars, Noem has been facing considerable scrutiny over reports that DHS funneled hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to a firm with ties to Noem herself. And now a group of lawmakers is calling for an investigation into how that firm ended up getting all the taxpayer money. Of course they want to know. They should know. Then there's the former reality TV star Trump put in charge of our nation's travel infrastructure. Yes, that guy, Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy. Now, right now, to be fair, Sean Duffy has a lot on his plate. Americans are preparing for the busiest travel season of the year, and the recent government shutdown has led to a wave of flight cancellations that continue even after the government reopened. But do not worry, because Sean Duffy has an idea that is going to fix American Air travel once and for all. Listen to it.
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Legal Analyst / Former U.S. Attorney
I would encourage people to maybe dress a little better, which encourages us to.
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Congressman Jim Himes
Maybe behave a little better.
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Legal Analyst / Former U.S. Attorney
Let's try not to wear slippers and pajamas as we come to the airport. People dress up like they're going to bed when they fly. Dress up, bring civility back to travel. Let's maybe go back to an era where we didn't wear our pajamas to the airport. We actually might dress up a little bit. How I dress, I can't blame anybody else. I made that choice this morning when I came to the airport.
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Host Jen
Ah, yes, that's definitely the problem. People shouldn't be so comfortable when they go to the airport. Thank you, Secretary Duffy, for really just getting to the bottom of that for us. You know, you spend hundreds of dollars on the plane ticket, waded through countless delays. The least you could do is put on a tie and loafers. Least you could do. I should note that this is the same Sean Duffy who just scrapped a Biden era proposal to compensate travelers for flight disruptions. But hey, maybe you'll feel better about paying out of pocket for the airline's mistakes if you're doing it in nice dress and some tasteful pumps. I bet you would. But I've got to say, I mean, compared to some of Trump's other cabinet secretaries, of which there are many doing weird stuff, Duffy almost seems like a problem solver. I mean, just consider Trump's Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessant right now. He, he also, to be fair, has a lot on his plate. Trump's tariff policy disaster. All those deals Trump promised haven't really come to fruition. Prices are up, housing costs are up, health care costs are about to go way up for a lot of people. And voters continue to signal that they are unhappy with the way this administration has handled the affordability crisis. But don't worry because Scott Bessant also has a plan.
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Host Jen
Move from a blue state to a red state. Blue state inflation is half percent higher. Of course, struggling with the high cost of living. Just move, quit your job, pack up your family, go find a new home when prices are at an all time high. Should be easy. Do all that and your rising cost of living could go down by as much as. What was it again, Scott? Half a percent. Okay, then there's Trump's Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. The man in charge of our nation's health, has been hard at work recently. Been doing a lot of making the CDC update its website with new warnings like this one. The claim vaccines do not cause autism is not an evidence based claim and studies supporting a link between vaccines and autism shave have been ignored by health authorities. Which at this point is exactly the kind of anti science propaganda we've come to expect from RFK Jr. Not a surprise, right? But what we maybe did not expect is everything else we are learning about RFK Jr. Recently. I mean, last year we learned that RFK Jr. Was allegedly engaged in some kind of an affair with a political reporter 39 years younger than him. Secretary Kennedy has denied the affair claim, saying they only met once for an interview. But now that reporter has written a book revealing what she says are new details about RFK Jr. S personal life. According to the New York Times reporting on that book, she writes that despite RFK Jr. S claim that he has been sober for decades, he still uses psychedelics and even smoked dmt, the powerful drug on which people have what feel like near death experiences. Okay, I'm just going to resist here the urge to make a transition involving sobriety and just ask what is Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth up to these days, you may ask. Well, the man currently in charge of the world's largest military is currently spending his working days ordering an investigation into Democratic Senator Mark Kelly over Kelly's participation in a social media video reminding members of the armed forces that they do not have to follow illegal orders. A truth. Yesterday, Senator Kelly responded to the news of this investigation posting this photo of the numerous medals he was awarded for his service in the Navy, which in turn prompted the Defense Secretary to launch a new attack over all things. Whether or not Kelly displayed his medals in the right order, hagseth told the senator, quote, when, if you are recalled to active duty, it'll start with a uniform inspection. Now this is very cringey already. But what makes this even more cringeworthy is that as a captain in the Navy, Senator Kelly outranked Pete Hegseth in that uniform. So it's kind of hilarious that an army major who served five years on active duty with the National Guard is correcting a retired Navy captain who served for more than 20. But I digress. And now even some Republicans are admitting this whole thing is just completely ridiculous. Today, Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski posted on X the Department of Defense and FBI surely have more important priorities than this frivolous investigation. Look, none of the people Trump chose to be part of his administration are exactly killing it these days. But there is perhaps nowhere in Trump's administration suffering more embarrassment than the Department of Justice. I mean, in just the past week, we learned that Lindsey Halligan, Trump's hand picked prosecutor leading the investigations into two of his rivals, made critical mistakes that jeopardized their entire case against former FBI Director James Comey. Then we got a ruling from a judge that just yesterday actually saying that actually, none of that may matter because the Trump administration, administration, administration, never properly appointed Halligan in the first place. So the cases she brought against James Comey and Letitia James have been dismissed. Now, at the same time, we learned that Trump's Department of Justice is now investigating two Trump officials for potentially violating the law during their investigation into Trump's other rival, Adam Schiff. There's perhaps nothing more important to Trump, nothing in his second term than his revenge tour against those rivals. But somehow those prosecutions have become the biggest example of incompetence we have seen from an administration staffed by some of the most incompetent people this country has ever seen. Preet Bharar is the former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York who is currently representing Senator Adam Schiff in his fight against the Justice Department. And he joins me now. There are so many legal questions I have for you, as always, but I just want to start with this kind of broad question we've been thinking about. I mean, just as quickly as these revenge prosecutions against James Comey and Tish James pretty much went up in flames, Trump turned to the Pentagon to investigate Mark Kelly. He's turned to the FBI to investigate those Democrats who told service members to defy illegal orders. You and I have talked about this before, but I just wonder what you make of that news given the context of these prosecutions against Comey and James falling apart.
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Legal Analyst / Former U.S. Attorney
Yeah. So it's good to be here with you. I think. You have to keep in mind what it seems to be the purpose of these actions by the Trump administration. It's not necessarily to hold people accountable. It's not to get justice. It's to punish the people who have wronged him or have advocated against him or who have crossed him in some way. And the pain is in the investigation, in the persecution, in the harassment, in the piling up of legal bills on the part of all these people, some of whom can afford it, some of whom can't. And so at the end of the day, it is often the case that Donald Trump doesn't care. His people don't care if there's an ultimate conviction and someone goes to prison, so long as they suffered along the way. I mean, you remember the origin story of one of the first pieces of misconduct in the presidency of Donald Trump was that business in Ukraine that was the foundation of the first impeachment trial. And remember, Donald Trump didn't say, you know, we have to hold people accountable. He said, just announce an investigation, right? Announce an investigation of the Bidens and I'll do the rest. That's eight years ago. Seven, eight, nine years ago. And that's still his M.O. punish people by exposing them to process, harassment, subpoenas, trial. And if they get off at the end of the day, because they're supposed to, because the law requires them to, they'll just blame the judges and he'll.
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Host Jen
Go find other people to go after, it seems, which seems to be his MO Too. Let me ask you specifically on Comey and Chish James. He's made it, I mean, Trump, the White House has made it clear yesterday they did, I guess, that they're going to continue to pursue these charges. Walk. That may be a little overconfidence on their end, but you tell us, I mean, walk us through what their options are here.
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Legal Analyst / Former U.S. Attorney
Well, they've announced they're going to appeal. I heard the attorney general say that I don't know that any papers have been filed. They have a little bit of time, which is their right. I will say, in fairness, to give them some credit, on prior occasions in court, battle after court battle, the MAGA folks and Trump as their leader have attacked courts as being not just corrupt, but engaging in insurrection or in judicial coups because they don't agree when they have the opportunity and the right and the duty, probably in their case, in their thinking, to appeal. So they'll quietly appeal. I think it's unlikely to succeed, but I think we're going to have some time before these things are finally resolved. But the status quo for both Tish James and Jim Comey. And Jim Comey is in a better position because of the expiration of the statute of limitations between the time of the indictment and the time of the dismissal. I still think they have the better of the argument. We'll see. But, you know, the process has to. Has to unfold. And everyone is subject to the process, not just the people he targets, but Trump himself.
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Host Jen
Comey's team has argued that the statute of limitations, it doesn't apply anymore because this wasn't a valid indictment. Is that valid? What do you think about that?
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Legal Analyst / Former U.S. Attorney
I think that's a good argument. I think it's likely to prevail. There are competing arguments. There's a relation back doctrine such that if an indictment is flawed in some way but not invalid and not a nullity, I think you could articulate the law that way. Then you can go back and make corrections. The Comey team will argue that the whole thing is annulling. There is no indictment and the statute of limitations is run. So you can't bring the case. But that will still have to be argued out. But I think again, if I had to be in one position or the other, I'd rather be in Jim Comey's position.
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Host Jen
Let me ask you about another big piece of news we got today, which is that Trump is considering booting FBI Director Cash Patel out of his job. I mean, obviously he's not qualified. We've talked about this. Obviously, there are plenty of bad headlines which they seem to blame it on. I assume a lot of people inside doj, even though he'd be replaced with somebody else and there's reporting on that would be in favor of him being booted. But what do you think?
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Legal Analyst / Former U.S. Attorney
Look, I think when I was on your show some weeks ago, it was in the aftermath of Cash Patel having testified in Congress. And I remember thinking if I didn't get an opportunity to say it, that, you know, rather than practice for his primetime moment and, and, you know, artlessly insult every senator or every House member at his House hearing with some clever riposte to them, he should spend his time in Washington instead of Las Vegas and he should spend his time caring and tending to the bureau and the bread and butter cases the bureau is supposed to deal with. I am not, you know, naive enough to think that you will necessarily get a more qualified person to replace Kash Patel. There are some rumors about somebody who maybe is on deck. I don't know until we see it. So that's all I'll say about that.
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Host Jen
All right. I guess we'll talk about it. If indeed he is kicked out and if indeed there's a replacement, have me back.
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Legal Analyst / Former U.S. Attorney
We'll talk about it.
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Host Jen
Well, you'll come back, prepare. Thank you so much. Have a happy Thanksgiving.
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Legal Analyst / Former U.S. Attorney
You, too. Thanks very much.
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Host Jen
Okay. Coming up, I've got a few questions, many questions. Why is Donald Trump so dead set on being allowed to issue illegal orders to the military? What's going on there? Could Pete Hegseth Absolutely. Undo unhinged tweets, derail his new revenge effort against Democratic lawmakers? And why has the FBI decided to get involved? I have the perfect person to talk to. Glenn Kirchner is a former federal prosecutor. He's also a former JAG officer in the U.S. army, and he joins me next.
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Host Jen
What would it do to the military profession for the Commander in Chief to call a retired member of the military back to active duty just so he could court martial them for saying things he didn't like? Now that is, of course, what Trump is currently trying to do to Democratic Senator Mark Kelly. But this isn't even the first time that question is being posed within a Trump White House because former Defense Secretary Esper had to deal with this question from the Commander in Chief back in 2020 during Trump's first term. Now, at the time, retired four star general Stanley McChrystal had called Trump immoral in an interview with ABC news. Admiral William McRaven, who is perhaps best known for overseeing the Navy SEAL raid that killed Osama bin Laden in 2011, wrote in an op ed that Trump embarrassed us in the eyes of our children, humiliated us on the world stage, and worst of all, divided us as a nation. Now it Turns out Trump really didn't like them saying that, and he reportedly wanted to use his power as commander in chief to punish them for it. Sound familiar? Now, according to Trump's own former Secretary of Defense, Mark Esper, Trump wanted both McChrystal and McRaven brought back to active duty service specifically so he could try to have them court martialed. Esper claims he and then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley managed to talk Trump out of the idea and avoid a complete disaster. But as Esper put it, if I wasn't there and Millie wasn't there, what would have happened? It seems that we now get to find out because rather than having Mark Esper and Mark Milley in the room to act as a guardrail to Trump's worst instincts, now we have former Fox News anchor Pete Hegseth. Again, the thing Trump is so worked up about this time is the video put out by six Democratic lawmakers who served in the military or the CIA reminding our nation's troops that they can and should ignore unlawful orders from their superiors. Now, of those six, only Senator Mark Kelly retired at a high enough military rank for the military to be able to call him back to active duty without his consent. Yesterday, the Pentagon opened an inquiry into Kelly that could result in exactly that. Hegseth calling Kelly back to active duty so they can try to court martial him. Now, as for the other five lawmakers who were outside of the military's legal jurisdiction, today we learned that the FBI has opened its own investigation looking into all six of the lawmakers Trump is so angry with. So with no cooler heads in the room this time around, no people to talk Trump out of, just how extreme this all is, where does this all go from here? Joining me now is Glenn Kirchner, former federal prosecutor, former Army JAG prosecutor, and the host of the Justice Matters podcast. I could see you shaking your head as I was just explaining all of that and I know why I think we all are. As a former judge, can you just help us non lawyer, non military types understand what is a court martial? How would that work? What are we talking about here, Jen?
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TikTok Advertiser / Military Expert
A court martial is not that different from a prosecution in federal court. For example, in federal practice, you have the federal rules of evidence. In a court martial, you have the military rules of evidence, but they track almost exactly including they use the same numbers. So you have jury trials. In the military, we call them panel trials, but really it's kind of indistinguishable. I have always said that when people see from the inside the military criminal justice system, it is very protective of a defendant's right. We call them the accused, not the defendant. But you have a robust bucket of rights just like you would in federal court due process, all constitutional rights. What is different is there are some unique military offenses like awol, absence without leave. You know, if you don't go to your job, you're not going to be prosecuted for awol. Right. But if you leave the military without permission, that's a criminal offense. Disobeying lawful orders, which is, you know, what we are talking about now. So it's more similar than it is different. But what I see is Donald Trump abusing his power as commander in chief in the military setting by basically insisting that a court court martial be contemplated, a military investigation be instituted against Mark Kelly, Senator Mark Kelly, or that the FBI begin investigating the other members of Congress who made that public service announcement video that was nothing more than announcing heartland military law principles.
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Host Jen
You made this so poignant point to me before we came on the air, which is just that if members of the military, if they carry out unlawful orders, which is basically what these six members were telling them what not to do, they could be court martialed, they could be in trouble for doing that, even though they could be abiding by what a commander in chief in this current situation is telling them to do.
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TikTok Advertiser / Military Expert
Yeah, let's be real clear. I was first. It was drilled into my head at officer basic training at what was Fort Bragg is again Fort Bragg and then again at the Army's JAG school where they teach us how to be military lawyers, drilled into our heads, you must obey lawful orders, but you must disobey unlawful orders. And when you have these six members of Congress simply stating what the military law, what the manual for courts martial says and they're going to be criminally investigated for it, there is no adequate predication. There's no evidence warranting an investigation. But as you were saying, Jen, if a soldier or a sailor or seaman or an airman obeys an unlawful order, they could be court martialed, they could be dishonorably discharged, they could be imprisoned at Fort Leavenworth. And the standard for that type of an issue to be litigated is whether they knew it was unlawful or they should have known. How about we don't put our military members in that trick bag? But you know, here we are.
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Host Jen
Let me ask you, I mean, it seems obviously they're all, many people are overstepping their power here. It feels like the FBI investigating these five members. You have even the push, even the Department of Defense potentially considering a Trump order to court martial. What do you think as a lawyer? What do you think the consequences should be for people who are abiding by following these steps from the commander in chief when they seem to be complete overreaches of power?
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TikTok Advertiser / Military Expert
They're following unlawful commands from Donald Trump. And if you're committing offenses and your defense is going to be, I was just following orders, you know, that didn't work out so well at Nuremberg. It certainly didn't work out so well for Lieutenant Calley when he engaged in mass murder, the My Lai massacre. And you know, Pete Hegseth just doing whatever Donald Trump tells him to do, like initiating a criminal investigation that could result in a court martial of Senator Kelly for simply stating accurately what the military law provides or cash Patel's FBI opening criminal probes of members of Congress for speaking the truth. You know that that is something that will someday when the rule of law comes back into the light of day, will have to be tackled. They'll have to be held accountable for those abuses.
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Host Jen
It's going to be accounting for all of this and remembering all of it. Glenn Kirschner, thank you so much for being here, helping make sense or explain a lot of this to us. Really appreciate it. Okay, up next, little Mike Johnson is quickly losing control of his caucus. And I'm not just talking about Marjorie. Taylor Greene, a member of Democratic leadership, joins me to talk about a rapidly unfolding MAGA meltdown. When we come back.
- [26:36]
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Host Jen
Okay? House Speaker Mike Johnson sat down for a podcast interview with Stephen Miller's wife and. Well, just see for yourself. You know who Jelly Roll is? Do I know?
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TikTok Advertiser / Military Expert
Yes.
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Host Jen
What's a conspiracy theory that you believe in?
- [28:10]
TikTok Advertiser / Military Expert
I'm not really into conspiracy theories to.
- [28:12]
Host Jen
The frustration of some of my colleagues. Who's the hardest member of Congress to deal with?
- [28:16]
Modelo Advertiser
The people that require the most amount of my time self identify because they're.
- [28:20]
TikTok Advertiser / Military Expert
On social media and you know, they're expressing their opinions. And you could probably guess we have this joke that I'm not really a speaker of the House.
- [28:27]
Modelo Advertiser
I'm really like a mental health counselor.
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Host Jen
I have no idea what that gesture was in the beginning of the interview. That aside, I mean, if Johnson sees a big part of his job is playing therapist to the conference, he appears to have his work cut out for him. Because following Marjorie Taylor Greene's sudden announcement that she would be stepping down from her seat in January, there are signs that her frustrations within the Republican Party and early resignation that they're not one offs. According to reporting from Punchbowl News, a number of House Republicans are considering an early exit. One senior House Republican tells Punchbowl, quote, this entire White House team has treated all members like garbage. All. And Mike Johnson has let it happen because he wanted it to happen. That is the sentiment of nearly all. The arrogance of this White House team is off putting to members who are run roughshed and threatened. More explosive early resignations are coming. It's a tinderbox. Morale has never been lower. Mike Johnson will be stripped of his gavel and they will lose the majority before this term is out. Someone had a few things to get off their chest before Thanksgiving, it seems. Well, someone who maybe knows some things about is going to join me now. Democratic Congressman and Assistant Democratic leader in the House, Joe Negus of Colorado. It's great, great to see you. So I realize you're not dining with these members every day, but you do all work together. You're on the floor together. You see each other in the hallways. You know what's going on. I mean, does that sense of dejection and anger with the White House track with you from members that you've heard of, that you've heard from?
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Modelo Advertiser
Well, it's good to be with you, Jen. Thanks for having me on, look, I agree with that anonymous member that you just quoted at length. And I do. I mean, look, the chaos, the dysfunction of the House Republican Conference and ultimately the Republican Party writ large shouldn't be particularly surprising to anyone given the way that Speaker Johnson has just debased the article. One branch of our government. I mean, there's a reason Steve Bannon has described the Congress as the Duma, because under Speaker Johnson, they've capitulated to President Trump at every turn and really rendered the people's House irrelevant in Trump's Washington, D.C. it's profoundly disgraceful in my view. And I wish that some of these Republican members, instead of speaking to the press anonymously, would stand up and do the right thing on behalf of their constituents and join with us to do the right thing. But unfortunately, if past is prologue, I don't think that's going to be happening anytime soon.
- [30:54]
Host Jen
I wish, I think everybody wishes it would. Do you think? I mean, it seems like the prediction is of some more early retirements. I guess, kind of like Marjorie Taylor Greene, but different. She's sort of a one off in my view. But there could be many other reasons, including what you mentioned about the House being like the Duma. Do you think that's something we should be preparing for, that you all in Democratic leadership are preparing for?
- [31:19]
Modelo Advertiser
It is certainly something that we are prepared for and have continued to prepare for throughout the duration of this Congress. Again, not particularly surprising that some of these members on the Republican side of the aisle would decide to leave Congress early. This is the most unproductive Congress since the 1930s. Less substantive legislation passed. Obviously, as you know, and as you've covered extensively, Republican members of Congress are simply there to do the president's bidding. It's why the president has apparently said reportedly that he serves as both the president and the speaker of the House, which makes sense given that Speaker Johnson is, you know, spending his time doing podcast interviews instead of actually governing the House. So, yes, I think that there are likely to be more retirements if that ultimately comes to pass, then, as was referenced that article, certainly there could be some developments with respect to the control of the House in the months ahead in advance of the 2026 election. But look, many of these Republican members know they're heading to the exit for a reason. They realize they're going to lose the midterms next year. The president is deeply unpopular. His economic agenda is devastating working families across the country, including here in Colorado. And I think that they'll pay an electoral price in 11 months what do you make?
- [32:30]
Host Jen
I started the show talking to Chris Hayes about this. A little bit of these crazy couple of days on health care. I mean, first we got news that Trump was planning to announce a plan on extending subsidies. Wouldn't be a surprise necessarily. It's hugely popular. And then the plan got killed before it was ever rolled out. What's going on and do you think Republicans will ever actually put a plan forward maybe once people feel pain?
- [32:53]
Modelo Advertiser
I mean, look, my short answer is no. I don't believe the Republicans will ever put forward a plan because they have been promising to do so for 16 years. Jen, as you know, I mean, you of course worked in the White House. You remember this. Well, they've spent decades supposedly trying to convey to the American people that they're serious about lowering health care costs and then doing the exact opposite. They've tried every possible angle to repeal the Affordable Care Act. There's an easy way for them to address the health care crisis in the country and that's extending the Affordable Care act subsidies. Apparently, some folks in the White House have realized that this is a deeply unpopular position for them to take in terms of their inaction. And so they've, I guess, woken up to that reality. But I don't believe that they'll ultimately ever be serious about putting a substantive proposal forward. If they were, they could simply do what we and countless Americans have asked of them, which is extend the subsidies on a bipartisan basis. We know the American people support that approach. Again, I don't see the Republicans doing the same anytime soon.
- [33:53]
Host Jen
Well, they could have another chance in January. We'll see. Congressman Jonah goes, thank you so much for joining me. And happy Thanksgiving to you too.
- [34:02]
Modelo Advertiser
Thank you, Jim.
- [34:03]
Host Jen
Okay, up next, Donald Trump's top negotiator loves the pro Russia peace plan so much that he was caught on tape advising the Russians on how to convince Donald Trump. You can't make it up sometimes. Congressman Jim Himes is the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. I'm guessing he has some thoughts and he joins me next. So last week, Donald Trump reportedly proposed a new so called peace plan to end the war Russia started when they invaded Ukraine nearly four years ago. He laid out a 28 point proposal to Ukraine's President Zelensky, a plan that can only be described as a Russian wish list, going so far as reportedly forcing Ukraine to give up additional territory, capping the size of their military and promising that they will never join NATO. Now, Trump told Zelensky he had just a few days to accept this proposal. But it was hard to imagine a world in which it made any sense for Ukraine to agree to it. The deal was so clearly pro Russia that some even joke that Kremlin officials may have just written it themselves. I mean, in public. Trump officials like Secretary of State Marco Rubio said that this Ukraine peace deal was authored by the US and based on input from both sides. But behind closed doors. Senators from both sides of the aisle claim that Rubio told them a different story, that this new plan was merely what Russia wants, nothing more. At a security conference in Canada, Republican Senator Mike Brown said that this was not a final deal, but a starting point, saying, quote, it looked more like it was written in Russian to begin with. There you go. Independent Senator Angus King was more forthcoming, telling NBC News that Rubio noted it was not the Trump administration's plan, but a, quote, wish list of the Russians. That's pretty clear. Enter Trump's son in law, Jared Kushner, and of course White House envoy Steve Witkoff, two real estate men who apparently hold the most power in decision making for U.S. foreign policy. Now, over the past few months, Kushner and Wyckoff have met with Putin's allies to devise a so called plan to end the war in Ukraine. And for some reason, these two think this Kremlin esque deal is so good that Wyckoff even took some time to coach the Russians on how to pitch it to Trump. Today, Bloomberg is reporting that they got ahold of a recording of an October phone call between Wyckoff and Putin's top foreign policy aide. In it, Witkoff advises Putin's aide on how to build on the Trump administration's Gaza deal to pitch this pro Russia 28 point deal to Trump, including by saying, quote, I would make the call and just reiterate that you congratulate the President on this achievement, that you supported it, you supported it, that you respect that he is a man of peace and you're just, you're really glad to have seen it happen. I told the President that you, that the Russian Federation has always wanted a peace deal. That's my belief. I told the President I believe that. Joining me now is Congressman Jim Himes, ranking Member of the House Intelligence Committee. So there's a lot to talk about here with the status of this proposal and all of it, but I just want to start by asking you, I mean, that call was leaked from somewhere. Why do you think it was?
- [37:14]
Congressman Jim Himes
Yeah, I suppose partly because it's just so outrageous in the context of what that 28 point plan was, which was an abject surrender document for the, for the Ukrainians. So my guess is, and I have no idea how it was leaked, but my guess was to show that rather than negotiating with leverage and telling the Russians that we will up our assistance to the Ukrainians, the Ukrainians, that the Europeans will do so, this shows Steve Witkoff just almost literally sitting side by side with the Russians on this.
- [37:46]
Host Jen
Why do you think that is? I mean, he is still negotiating for the United States. We still have still been publicly supporting Ukraine. I mean most people do, like you and many others. Why is Steve Wyckoff so insistent and Jared Kushner on kind of coaching the Russians here and seemingly pushing this 28 point plan?
- [38:07]
Congressman Jim Himes
Well, if you think about it, what happens sort of gives the game away, right? The reality of the situation is that Vladimir Putin does not want peace. He's making very slow and small, at great cost, in blood and treasure, progress on the battlefield. He knows that if he doesn't have something spectacular to show for his now two plus year old war with hundreds of thousands, thousands of Russians killed, his own crown will be at risk. And so Steve Witkoff gets that. He knows that what he needs to do is to move Vladimir Putin to a point of saying yes. And to do that, of course you have to completely give, you have to draft the kind of document that they did, which is a total surrender of the Ukrainians. The flaw in that, of course is that, and this is evident from the start, it was just the Ukrainians were not part of this, Europe was not part of this. Right. So it's unimaginable to consider the fact that you would propose a peace deal that the Ukrainians didn't even know about. And it just shows you that this administration wants to have peace at all costs. And if that cost is that Vladimir Putin is strengthened and encouraged to do what he did in Ukraine in the future, well, that's okay by the President.
- [39:23]
Host Jen
Part of this threat, part of this proposed peace plan came with this threat of cutting off aid which we've long seen, you've long been navigating on your end. What happens now?
- [39:36]
Congressman Jim Himes
Well, you know what's interesting is there's been such blowback against this plan and the confusion that you outlined earlier. You know, Marco Rubio may be telling senators that this 28 point plan was Russian, but know then it wasn't Russian. And then you've got the army secretary of all people who's never done diplomacy, negotiating this. And Witkoff is here and Marco Rubio, this is a goat rodeo. Right. I mean, when you negotiate with the Russians, you know, we've done it for a couple of generations now. You are strategic. You think about it, you have a plan. This is a total goat rodeo with almost zero chances of success. And the one thing Donald Trump has is the threat against the Ukrainians. Now, by the way, inside the Congress, you have Democrats and lots of Republicans who will not stand for that. If you heard my colleague Don Bacon talking about this, Don Bacon said he Republican, almost resigned because the deal, the proposed deal was so hideous.
- [40:29]
Host Jen
And a number of Republicans and independent Angus King, who I know caucus of the Democrats, but still basically saying this sounds like it was Russian ideas. Russian ideas and what they wanted, nothing else. Let me ask you about something else. I mean, we started the show by talking about these investigations from the Pentagon and now the FBI into a couple of your Democratic colleagues who urged service members to defy illegal orders, which, by the way, they should do, because if they abide by illegal orders, they could be court martialed themselves. I know you take the global view on most things, but how do you think our allies and our adversaries are looking at this?
- [41:06]
Congressman Jim Himes
Well, you know, in combination with the whole Russian 28 point plan, in combination with the lethal strikes on drug boats carrying cocaine in the Caribbean, what the world is seeing is that the Trump administration is purely performative. Right? It doesn't matter what really happens, so long as in the moment when you're very, very mad at Mark Kel Kelly, you threatened to court martial him. Now, you know Mark Kelly will never be court martialed because as you point out, what he said was perfectly consistent with the Uniform Code of Military justice and what every officer knows is true. And by the way, if you ever did have a court martial and Mark Kelly's defense attorney said, now, is there any context, any context at all in which one might be worried that Donald Trump might issue an illegal order? Well, let's look back at, let's run the tape. Donald Trump suggested that maybe the United States military could train in America's cities. You know, Donald Trump has undertaken attacks on cocaine boats in the Caribbean on the flimsiest of legal rationales. So, I mean, it's a little bit like the Comey case. It's a little bit like the Letitia James case. It's purely performative. And at the end of the day, it's going nowhere. But in the meantime, my colleagues are getting death threats and are very much at risk because of the rhetoric of this performative president.
- [42:19]
Host Jen
No question about it. And they went out there and said something that needed to be said. So grateful for them for doing that. Congressman Jim Himes, thank you so much for joining us.
- [42:29]
Congressman Jim Himes
Thank you, Jim.
- [42:31]
Host Jen
Okay, coming up, nothing is normal in this White House. Just to state the obvious, not even the annual presidential pardon of turkeys. Is nothing sacred? I'll explain next. The White House turkey pardon is normally a very fun time. I mean, the president pardons a pair of turkeys with funny names. They even stay in a hotel. And he also offers a bit of a civics lesson on the power of the pardon. That's what normally happens. But this is a Donald Trump turkey pardon.
- [43:05]
Political Commentator / Trump Critic
These are two of the largest turkeys ever presented to an American president, over 50 pounds each. Despite their size, Secretary Kennedy has formally certified that these are the first ever Maha turkeys. I don't know if I agree with that. These are maha. In other words, they could be fat, but they're still maha. I'm not going to tell my Pritzker joke. They have a very cute little joke. You know, some speechwriter wrote some joke about his weight, but I would never want to talk about his weight. I don't talk about people being fat. I refuse to talk about the fact that he's a fat slob. I don't mention it.
- [43:43]
Host Jen
Charming, isn't he? Now, luckily, Trump has already spent much of this year giving us a lesson in pardon power. In addition to pardoning all the January 6th insurrectionists, he pardoned the founder of the crypto exchange Binance, who had been convicted on money laundering charges related to the company's role in enabling funding for terror groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaeda. But that same founder also teamed up with a Trump family owned crypto business. So in Trump world, I guess that allows you to just look the other way on the other stuff. Trump, though, did say today that he had his limits as to when he wouldn't use the power of the pardon.
- [44:20]
Political Commentator / Trump Critic
I shouldn't say this. I was going to call him Chuck and Nancy, but then I realized I wouldn't be pardoning them. I would never pardon those two people.
- [44:30]
Host Jen
I guess being a financial platform for terror groups is fine, but he draws the line at being a Democrat. That does it for me tonight. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on Ms. Now. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue Sky, Instagram and TikTok.
- [44:44]
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- [45:05]
Host Jen
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