Trump's Epstein mess dogs Republicans in home districts; Scandal follows Trump overseas

Summary

Summary of "Trump's Epstein Mess Dogs Republicans in Home Districts; Scandal Follows Trump Overseas"

The Briefing with Jen Psaki
Host: Jen Psaki
Episode Release Date: July 26, 2025
Description: Jen Psaki delves into the ramifications of former President Donald Trump's handling of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal, exploring its impact on Republican lawmakers and broader political dynamics. The episode features expert analysis and discussions on legal developments, media challenges, and global reactions.

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1. Trump's Stance on Pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell

Timestamp: [01:06] – [02:18]

Jen Psaki opens the episode by addressing President Trump's recent departure to Scotland amidst ongoing scrutiny over his connections to Jeffrey Epstein. A pivotal moment occurs when Trump is questioned about pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell:

Trump: "Would you consider a pardon or a commutation for Elaine Maxwell? If it's something I haven't thought about, it's really something. I recommended it, I'm allowed to do it. But it's something I have not thought about. But you wouldn't."

This mirrors Trump's previous assertions where he denied deliberating pardons for individuals like Michael Flynn and Roger Stone, only to subsequently issue pardons for them. The episode underscores the skepticism surrounding Trump's claims of not contemplating pardons, especially in light of his close associates' interactions with Maxwell.

2. Legal Developments: Maxwell's DOJ Meetings

Timestamp: [23:04] – [30:42]

Jen Psaki introduces Christy Greenberg, a former deputy Chief at the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York, to unpack the legal intricacies of Ghislaine Maxwell's recent interactions with the Department of Justice (DOJ). Greenberg explains the nature of Maxwell's "proffer" or "Queen for a Day" agreement:

Christy Greenberg: "The agreement that I expect they entered into is an agreement which basically says anything she says can't be used against her by the government to charge her with a crime... she knows what she has to do there."

Greenberg emphasizes the improbability of Maxwell providing credible information, citing her history of deceit and the unusual nature of her meeting with the DOJ’s Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche. She further criticizes attempts to portray Maxwell as a victim, reaffirming her culpability in the Epstein scandal.

3. Impact on Republican Lawmakers in Home Districts

Timestamp: [02:18] – [18:17]

Psaki details the political fallout for Republican lawmakers facing mounting pressure from constituents over their handling of the Epstein files. Key points include:

• Early Recess: Republican Speaker Mike Johnson sent the House into an early recess to avoid voting on Epstein-related file releases.
• Town Halls Under Siege: Representatives like Ryan McKenzie and Scott Perry, who represent competitive swing districts, faced direct accusations from callers about their ties to Epstein, highlighting the intense accountability their voters demand.

Local media coverage varies, with some Republican lawmakers like Representative French Hill defending the administration's secrecy, while others like U.S. Representative Michelle Fischbach face backlash from conservative activists threatening primary challenges over their votes to seal the Epstein files.

4. Democratic and Progressive Responses

Timestamp: [08:43] – [18:17]

The Democratic National Committee (DNC) has launched targeted political ads in vulnerable Republican districts to pressure lawmakers into releasing Epstein files. Additionally, progressive groups like Indivisible and Bulwark are mobilizing grassroots efforts to amplify constituent demands for transparency.

Ezra Levin, co-executive director at Indivisible, highlights the widespread public support for releasing the Epstein files:

Ezra Levin: "90% of the country wants the DOJ to release the files. 90%. I can tell you I have never, ever, ever seen an issue that unites Americans like this."

Tim Miller from Bulwark underscores the opportunity for Democrats to engage disengaged voters by addressing the Epstein scandal authentically and personally, rather than forcing it into traditional campaign advertising formats.

5. Trump Administration's Assault on Media and Free Speech

Timestamp: [31:27] – [44:34]

The episode shifts focus to the Trump administration's aggressive stance against the media, exemplified by the controversial cancellation of Stephen Colbert's show following his criticism of a $16 million settlement between CBS's parent company and Trump. Tim Miller and David Enrich, deputy investigations editor for The New York Times, discuss the broader implications:

David Enrich: "They are using legal threats and lawsuits to hack away at the First Amendment... it's a really dangerous kind of slide away from the values of this country."

Enrich connects this trend to Trump's broader strategy of undermining media credibility, emphasizing the erosion of the bipartisan consensus on the importance of a free press. The administration's attempts to influence media content through financial pressures and regulatory changes threaten journalistic independence and set a concerning precedent for free speech in America.

6. Global Reactions: Protests Against the Gaza War

Timestamp: [45:50] – [45:50]

In addition to domestic issues, Jen Psaki touches upon international concerns, highlighting widespread protests against the Gaza conflict. Demonstrators worldwide are calling for an immediate end to the violence and addressing the humanitarian crisis, with over 100 aid groups warning of mass starvation in Gaza.

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Notable Quotes

• Jen Psaki:

  "It's nearly impossible to believe that he has not thought about it, given the fact that his former personal attorney... has been meeting with the convicted child sex trafficker and sexual abuser for the last two days."
  [01:28]

• Christy Greenberg:

  "She is not a victim. She is a monster... It's an insult to the jury who did their civic duty and delivered that justice by convicting her."
  [29:28]

• Ezra Levin:

  "90% of the country wants the DOJ to release the files. 90%. I can tell you I have never, ever, ever seen an issue that unites Americans like this."
  [13:08]

• David Enrich:

  "They are using legal threats and lawsuits to hack away at the First Amendment... it's a really dangerous kind of slide away from the values of this country."
  [43:06]

Concluding Remarks

Jen Psaki concludes the episode by emphasizing the critical juncture at which American politics and media find themselves. The unresolved Epstein scandal continues to exert significant pressure on Republican lawmakers, while the Trump administration's challenges to media freedom pose long-term threats to democratic accountability and free speech. The global outcry against conflicts like the Gaza war further underscores the interconnectedness of domestic and international issues in shaping public discourse and political dynamics.

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a clear understanding of the intertwined issues surrounding Donald Trump's handling of the Epstein scandal, its political repercussions, and the broader implications for media integrity and global humanitarian concerns.

Transcript

[Rob Lowe]

Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here, if you haven't heard. I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Rob Lowe]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Rob Lowe]

With the price of just about everything going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing Mint Mobile Unlimited Premium Wireless.

[Unknown News Anchor]

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[Unknown News Anchor]

Trump left for Scotland this morning, and before he left, a reporter shouted the question that has been on everyone's mind.

[Rob Lowe]

Would you consider a pardon or a commutation for Elaine Maxwell? If it's something I haven't thought about, it's really something. I recommended it, I'm allowed to do it. But it's something I have not thought about. But you wouldn't.

[Unknown News Anchor]

All right, so you could probably hear the audio there, but just in case, basically, that was President Trump claiming that he hasn't thought about pardoning or commuting the sentence of Ghislaine Maxwell. Now, it is nearly impossible to believe that he has not thought about it, given the fact that his former personal attorney, who is now the Deputy Attorney general, has been meeting with the convicted child sex trafficker and sexual abuser for the last two days. But here's the thing. He has used that claim, exactly that claim, several times before.

[Rob Lowe]

Would you consider a pardon for Michael Flynn? I don't want to talk about pardons on taxes.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I don't talk about that.

[Unknown News Anchor]

I don't talk about that. Are you gonna pardon Roger Stone?

[Rob Lowe]

Mr. President, I don't understand the question.

[Unknown News Anchor]

Roger Stone, are you gonna pardon him?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Sir, he's been convicted of felonies.

[Rob Lowe]

Am I gonna pardon you? Yes.

[Unknown News Anchor]

Well, I hadn't thought of it. I love the. I don't understand the question. It's a pretty simple question. But of course, Trump pardoned all three of those people, Michael Flynn, Paul Manafort and Roger Stone. And for all of them, he claimed he didn't want to talk about pardons. He claimed he hadn't thought about pardons, and then he pardoned them all. Now he's making the same claim again, but this time about Ghislaine Maxwell. But tonight, a senior administration official has confirmed to NBC News that the Department of Justice gave Ghislaine Maxwell limited immunity during their talks with her. Minute. Agreements like this one are often called Queen for a day. That's how they're referred to, Queen for a day deals in which the information provided cannot be used against the defendant as long as it's truthful. It's the kind of agreement prosecutors typically use when trying to when seeking to make someone a cooperator. Now, you may be wondering what Trump's former defense attorney wants Ghislaine Maxwell's cooperation with, or you may not be wondering, because I think we all have a sense there. And we're going to keep, we're going to have some legal help from Christy Greenberg, who's an amazing lawyer, amazing legal mind. She's going to help us unpack that a little bit later in the hour, because there is a lot to unpack. And we may learn more. Who knows? It's that kind of a news day. We'll see. But before we get there, we're going to start with Scotland, or we're going to go back to Scotland, I guess, where President Trump has flown to escape the Epstein story. And here's how he was greeted as he got off the plane today.

[Rob Lowe]

No, I was never, never bribed.

[Unknown News Anchor]

All right, so he left the White House and was asked a question about Epstein. Then he tried to escape. He quite literally banned the Wall Street Journal from joining him on his trip to Scotland as retaliation for their big scoop last week about his alleged birthday letter to Epstein. And yet, immediately after getting off the plane today in Scotland, he was asked about Epstein. He clearly wants this trip to be his running away across the pond, across the ocean from the Epstein story. But it still followed him. This was Trump's view as his motorcade made its way to his golf course in Scotland today. One sign there reading, release the files, you lying jobby. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, but jobie J O, B B I E, which I learned today is Scottish slang for poop. So there's that in case that's useful for anyone out there this weekend. Now, you know, jobby, poop this man's sign reads, this is not Pedophile Island. You are not welcome here. That's what it says. And then it is golf course itself. A sign reading twinned with Epstein island has been put beneath the golf course's actual sign. There it is. It looks like it's in similar type. That took a lot of planning and they attached it looks like it was meant to be there. Even the local elected officials were in on the trolling. Stephen Flynn, Aberdeen's entirely bald representative in the British Parliament, who you can see there in the photo, told the BBC that he would be busy washing his hair during Trump's visit. It's quite a troll. So while Trump is going to literally great lengths to try to get away from the Epstein story, it seems he's having a bit of trouble. And the same is true for his Republican friends in the House here. Back at home on Wednesday, Republican Speaker Mike Johnson sent the House home early to avoid having to vote on releasing any Epstein related files. It was all a dramatic affair. They all went home. But even at home, Republican House members are having trouble shaking the Epstein story, as NPR put it. Questions about Epstein files follow lawmakers home. At telephone town hall Wednesday, a caller asked Pennsylvania Republican Ryan McKenzie if he thinks Trump is in Epstein's client list. That was in a telephone town hall. In a different telephone town hall with Pennsylvania Republican Scott Perry, a caller accused Perry and Republicans of avoiding the Epstein discussion. I should note that both of these congressmen represent incredibly competitive swing districts. So kind of interesting. We're only a couple days into the recess, but Republicans don't even have to hold public events to be feeling this kind of heat right now. Check out some of this local press coverage. This is the Arkansas Times. Today, Representative French Hill blames Dems for Trump administration's failure to release Epstein files. But the 2nd district representative's rhetoric about transparency doesn't match his vote last week to keep the files sealed tight. It's not exactly welcome home coverage from your local paper you're kind of looking for if you're a member of Congress and you have to run every two years. Then there's this. In the Minnesota Star Tribune, U.S. representative Michelle Fischbach voted not to release the Epstein files. Conservative activists took notice. The move has anchored some of the right wing activist base that has dominated Republican politics in her district. They have warned that the Epstein issue could be the straw that breaks the camel's back for the base and called for the congressman to face a primary challenge. In Wisconsin, it's the local Libertarian Party that's up in arms. The party released a press release today titled, quote, not one Wisconsin representative has signed the Epstein transparency bill. The Libertarian Party of Wisconsin demands answers. There we go. Aggressive libertarians. Today the DNC launched a series of Epstein focused political ads, like this one featuring a video of Trump and Epstein at a party together with the text, call your representatives. Demand they release the Epstein files superimposed over it. Or this one featuring MAGA Fire brand Marjorie Taylor Greene. The highest volume of calls into my office have been about Epstein mjt. There you go. Those ads are going to play in 11 Republican districts that the DNC believes are vulnerable in the 2026 midterms. In Michigan, Colorado, Pennsylvania, Iowa, California, New York, North Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Wisconsin. Vulnerable House Republicans will have to face these ads. With this much grassroots, homegrown anger over Trump's handling of the Epstein files. And with Republican members of Congress all in their home districts to avoid having to vote in D.C. there's a pretty unique opportunity for Democrats to apply pressure to a pressure point that appears to really sting. So how should Democrats approach that opportunity? Well, groups like Indivisible are already doing something about it. The group's co executive director, Ezra Levin and the Bulwarks, Tim Miller are just standing by to discuss and they join me in just 90 seconds.

[Rob Lowe]

Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Really make you feel like you're pulling.

[Rob Lowe]

Up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Rob Lowe]

With the price of just about everything going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing Mint Mobile Unlimited Premium Wireless. How do they get 30? 30. Better get 30. Better get 20. 20, 20. Better get 20, 20. Better get 15. 15, 15, 15. Just 15 bucks a month. Sold.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Give it a [e-mail].

[Christy Greenberg]

Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy taxes and fees extra.

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[Unknown News Anchor]

Republican lawmakers who thought leaving Washington for August recess might give him a break from the party's Epstein problem may want to think again. Earlier I told you about the Democratic National Committee, which began running online ads targeting right wing voters today, encouraging them to demand their Republican representatives work to release the Epstein files. But they're not alone. The progressive group Indivisible is taking a similar tack, putting up these billboards you see on your screen in the districts of top Republicans and vulnerable members with the message release all the Epstein files. Joining me now are Ezra Levin, co founder and co executive director at Indivisible, and Tim Miller, co, a podcast host at the Bulwark and an MSNBC political analyst. Okay, there's a lot to talk about about this story, but let me start here with you, Ezra. It's been obviously a dominant issue in Washington and across newspapers and we've all been kind of analyzing all the intricate details and all the pieces and we all want to be lawyers at this moment in time. But you talk to so many activists out there, people who are back in the districts of these members. It seeped, we know, beyond the beltway. But how has it seeped beyond the Beltway? And what are you hearing from people about kind of what is enraging them and what they're specifically moved by in this moment?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, Jen, look, I'm not an attorney, so I will focus on the politics of the matter and what I'm hearing on the ground. I would say as a organizer and as somebody who is deeply concerned that Donald Trump is a would be authoritarian trying to consolidate power. One thing we do do is look for what is breaking through, not just among the activist class, not just among progressives, not just among Democrats, but what can unify the country against this authoritarian overreach. And we look for issues that might be maybe have a 60% support, 70% support in our dream. That's something that the country is really united on when it comes to The Epstein files. 90% of the country wants the DOJ to release the files. 90%. I can tell you I have never, ever, ever seen an issue that unites Americans like this. And so, yeah, we're hearing about this not just from progressive activists or grassroots types. This is breaking through. This is beyond a political moment. This is a cultural moment where the country is looking at what's going on and saying, look, I might have voted for the guy, I might have not voted for the guy, I might be invested in politics, I might not be invested in politics, but there's something really fishy going on here and we wanna see the evidence.

[Unknown News Anchor]

One of the questions, I mean, I've been thinking about, Tim. There's so much to be enraged with about this story. There's transparency, there's the COVID up, there's the former personal attorney meeting with a sexual predator. I mean, there's lots of things. Right. And I keep thinking about this woman, Maria Farmer we had on last night, who's just one of so many victims. And we don't talk nearly much about that. But one of the things that's interesting about this story from a political standpoint is people are enraged and they want them to be released. And the Republican base is divided and pissed off at Trump. But it doesn't mean Democrats or others are flocking to Democrats right now. Right. We're not seeing that necessarily. What do you think? How do Democrats out there, people running for office, it doesn't have to be people in Washington, People are trying to get engaged, talk about this in a way where it feels real and it feels authentic and it's not, it doesn't feel like it's just trying to take advantage of a political weakness on the other side.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I just wanna say the Maria Farmer interview last night was really good and I was watching it and her testimony is so important. She was the first one to name Donald Trump. And as associated with this way back in 96, the FBI. So anyway, that's very important. As for the Democrats and the politics of this. Look, the thing that the Democrats have struggled with most, if you look at all the demographic groups and we don't always break these US campaign strategists look at this demo and that demo, the demo that demons have struggled with most are people that just aren't that engaged. Right. Disengaged people, it doesn't matter. Men, women, race. And so this is an issue that they care about and understand and pay attention to.

[Rob Lowe]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

Like people that don't watch the news, don't watch this show, don't listen to my podcast. Right. They do know about the Jeffrey Epstein story. They do care about it. And so this is an opportunity for Democrats to talk to them about that. And I think that, to your point about being authentic, you know, if there are women Democratic politicians that want to talk about why this matters to them, in particular about their experience of sexual abuse or their experience helping survivors, they should do that. If there are guys, male politicians, that want to go on bro podcasts and make jokes about how Donald Trump is in there, I think that's a useful thing to do, right? I mean, I think this thing has broken through. Comedians like Shane Gillis and the Flagrant podcast have been teasing about this. So I just think the Democrats should not try to force this. I think what Ezra is doing is good, but they don't need to try to force it into a 30 second TV ad per say. You know, just look for opportunities to talk to voters and talk to them about this in a way that they might talk about it themselves.

[Unknown News Anchor]

Ezra, just to add to that, I mean, one of the reasons I love talking with you is you're not, you're not just looking at polls, you're not just making TV ads, you're actually talking to people who are moved by things. And sometimes it's unpredictable what people are moved by and how they're moved by things. What have you heard from people out there who feel angry about this, who may want to know when there's going to be a protest they can participate in or want to know what action they can take? What is moving them specifically?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Over the last several months, we have seen a real transformation among the public. I think people started out assuming that this guy was going to consolidate power and have the ability to just implement his agenda and there wasn't going to be pushback. I would put the Epstein files as one of the most recent but biggest breakthrough moments we've had with the population that largely, as Tim said, doesn't pay attention to politics. And these are people who we desperately need involved. It's not enough to just reach out to folks who are politically engaged all the time. If you truly fear what Donald Trump's political project is, as I do, you understand that we can't just be organizing the same old people. We've got to be pulling new people in. So when we talk to organizer organizers on the ground, what they are trying to do is to welcome new people into this movement. And whether you're coming here because you're worried about the secret police force that has now just been funded to the hilt, whether you're worried about your Medicaid being cut off, maybe you voted for Donald Trump. And now you're concerned that this guy just out for himself and exhibit A is him hiding what's in the Epstein piles. Whatever it is, it's important to welcome people in. And so our folks on the ground who are organizing in red states and blue states and purple states and rural areas and suburban areas and urban areas, they are there to welcome people in. And if it's the Epstein files bringing them in, because that's what broke through, great, welcome to the club. And they are seeing this drive new people to start to question whether this guy is for real. And in my book that's a good thing. We should take advantage of it and we shouldn't let Trump or anybody else change the subject. And the good news is we're headed into August recess early as a result of the Republicans actions, they brought these weeks of members of Congress going back home to their districts to talk to their constituents early. It's starting now and they've got to go home and answer their constituents. And as you covered earlier, one of the top questions on people's mind is, hey, what's happened with Epstein files? Why aren't you voting to release those?

[Unknown News Anchor]

Which is, I don't know if I'm surprised by it. I am a little surprised by it, frankly. But we are at the beginning part of August recess wills, see. But it is interesting how it's manifesting itself out there. Let me ask you, Tim, just to put your Republican strategist hat on for a moment. You've spent many years in that world. I mean, what I can't wrap my head around here, figure out a bit is Trump went further than he has to date, basically suggesting a Maxwell pardon may be on the table today. Right. And ABC has also reported on this proffer agreement for Maxwell. It doesn't feel, I mean, there are some who are excusing him in the Republican Party, but the manosphere, the, in the podcast world seems to be still pretty enraged with him. How do you think that sits? Like, what does that do to the divide that's happening right now?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, well, here's the challenge. I'll do the challenge, then I'll put my Republican strategist hat on. It's been a while, but I think it still fits. But the challenge for them is as outrageous as the facts of the story are, I think the biggest political issue for them is that Trump seems like such a normal politician right now. The types of people that all these guys hate. He's covering up this story. He's protecting himself, he's protecting his rich Buddies, I think, you know, you tie that to what we saw with the, you know, with the big bill that they put through Congress. And you can see this where, like, as you mentioned, the manosphere, these podcasters are like, wait a minute, I thought this guy was supposed to be different than the other politicians. I thought he was supposed to be challenging the elite status quo. Like, and so you can see that trust connection being broken, right? So how do you, how do you rebuild that if you're Republicans? Like, the answer to that question is, well, number one, the elections aren't for 15 months, so maybe we'll see how this five week break goes and we'll deal, you know, to come talk to me at Christmas. I'm gonna go hide out and like, you know, hang out by the lake for a little while. Could really be the answer. But the other answer is what they're trying to do, right? Which, and this is why they're trying to distract. This is why they're trying to do the Obama thing. How can you find other issues where you can get on the right side of that group and hope that this dissipates and that you can raise the salience of that? And so I think that's what. And, or maybe within this issue, how can you find way to go after Democratic elites? And that's what I suspect they're trying to do with this insider corrupt deal with Ghislaine Maxwell. So I think that's where their head's at.

[Unknown News Anchor]

I'm sure they want her to have something incriminating about one of the many Democrats they all have a conspiracy theory about. We'll all just predict that's where they're headed or trying to. Ezra Levin, Tim Miller, thank you both so much. I really appreciate you joining me. Okay, coming up, Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice, Elaine Maxwell, just spent two days talking to the number two official in the Justice Department. As my mother would say, none of that sounds like it's on the level. So we'll talk about what's in it for Maxwell with former federal prosecutor Kristi Greenberg. That's coming up next. Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa, and have you been listening to my podcast? We are knee deep in season three, and if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the camera aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page Six? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx, nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off camera with Kelly Ripa now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Rob Lowe]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Christy Greenberg]

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[Rob Lowe]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

We haven't spoken to the president or.

[Rob Lowe]

Anybody about a pardon just yet.

[Unknown News Anchor]

And you know, listen, the President this.

[Rob Lowe]

Morning said he had the power to do so. We hope he exercises that power in.

[Unknown News Anchor]

The right and just way. That was convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyer, David Marcus, who's been speaking a lot public. But he was speaking to reporters earlier today at the conclusion of Maxwell's second day of interviews with the deputy attorney general and former personal lawyer to President Trump, Todd Blanche. Well, maybe he wasn't speaking just to reporters, if you know what I mean. It's pretty clear that Maxwell and her lawyer are hoping for a get out of jail free card. But a pardon isn't the only possible advantageous outcome Maxwell could be hoping for. I'm sure she would love that. But it's also possible that she could be offered some other kind of deal like getting her 20 year sentence reduced or even thrown out. And as I mentioned earlier, NBC News has confirmed that Maxwell in fact, received limited immunity during her meetings with Blanche as part of a proffer or queen for a day agreement, as they're often called. Now. Her attorney said Maxwell was asked about maybe 100 different people during her interview with the deputy Attorney General. He also said she answered every question, but of course, we have no idea what that actually means in context. That's just what her lawyer said. Okay. Joining me now is Christy Greenberg. She's a former deputy Chief at the U.S. attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York, and she's hosting a new show on YouTube called Courtside with Christy Greenberg. I'm very excited to check that out. We all wish we had law degrees right now, so I'm so grateful you're here. Let me just start with the idea that this was a proffer session, and I think a lot of people may just be learning that term for the first time. Most legal experts assumed it was one because Maxwell's attorney said she didn't assert her Fifth Amendment right not to answer questions that could incriminate her. But tell us about what it means about whatever testimony she may have given over the last two days.

[Christy Greenberg]

Right. So her attorney is not stupid. If he's bringing her in to talk and to have it be meaningful, he's going to want to make sure there's some protection for her. So really, the agreement that I expect they entered into is an agreement which basically says anything she says can't be used against her by the government to charge her with a crime. There are certain exceptions to that, like if she lies. But other than for the most part, that is the case, the other thing I would expect to have happened, because this is very unusual, those agreements don't generally happen post trial. Remember, she's already gone to trial and been convicted of sex trafficking, multiple counts of sex trafficking. That usually doesn't happen after trial. And so also almost, I can't think of an example of where the deputy Attorney General is conducting that interview. That is highly unusual, unheard of. And so he's not going to go there and waste his time. So what you often see is before this meeting happens, the attorneys talk and get a sense of like, well, what has she got? Is it worth my time to talk to her? Does she have anything? So, Todd, Blanche isn't going in there blind, I suspect. I suspect he has some idea of. Had some idea of what she was going to say beforehand. And look, she's also not stupid. She's not singing for her supper. She's singing for her freedom. Right. She's looking at 20 years, the next 20 years in prison. So she knows the. She understands the assignment. She knows what she has to do there. And I'm sure that among the names that she's given are names that are names that Donald Trump would want to hear. And so whether or not that is credible is a whole other question. I would argue it's highly incredible. You shouldn't believe anything she has to say. She has every incentive to continue to lie as she has before. But in this meeting, I suspect if they spent two days, roughly 12 hours speaking to her, what she was saying was very much of interest to them.

[Unknown News Anchor]

You kind of just went straight to the point there. Which is the point, right? Which is they were meeting for two days. She's not a credible witness. I mean, she's somebody who was. Who was lying, has been lying, has never admitted she was guilty of wrongdoing at any point in this process. So it seems like we don't know what happened in there, just to be very clear, but just to help people understand what they want is for other names, for her to be able to speak to other names, presumably, that are people he would consider enemies or would consider big names that maybe are on the other side of the aisle. Is that kind of what you're saying?

[Christy Greenberg]

I mean, that would make sense. Donald Trump's statements today, he's not really hiding what the game is here. He today talked about the fact that there would be a list. We were told first there was a list on Pam Bondi's desk, then there wasn't a list. Now, apparently there is going to be a list of people that will include people like Bill Clinton, I think Larry Summers, he mentioned, and some hedge fund guys. He's throwing out these names. You think it has nothing to do. It's completely removed from what Todd Blanche is hearing. Remember, Ghislaine Maxwell isn't the only one that has no credibility here. Todd Blanche has no credibility here. Why? Because when he found out that Donald Trump's name was in the. He went and reported that to Donald Trump. So he has no independence. That's not what you do in a criminal investigation. He's doing that because he has every incentive here to keep his job and to keep his boss happy. And so, yes, when he's asking about certain names, you think he's asking about Donald Trump. You think he's asking about people in Donald Trump's inner circle? No, he's asking about people, presumably, that Donald Trump would want him to ask about. I mean, I don't think Donald Trump's comments today can be divorced from what was going on in these interviews. I think it gives us a window into what was happening.

[Unknown News Anchor]

I mean, just to your point here, I mean the deputy attorney general who's the president's former personal criminal lawyer, normally there's an independence there going on that is highly abnormal, as is Todd Blanche going to see her. All of that is highly abnormal. And Pam Bondi gave him a heads up. He was in the file. So I think we should all assume that he is probably gonna know what happens here. We don't know that for sure, but that seems quite likely here. You've mentioned, and I've been trying to digest Marcus's comments and Trump's comments. As you look at all of the comments today, which feels like a lot of people were saying the quiet things out loud in some capacity, what do you make of them? How does it all sit with you as we sit here at 9:30 tonight?

[Christy Greenberg]

I think the comments I am most troubled by are some of the comments that you're hearing that somehow Maxwell is a victim. And I worry that we are setting her up to then get some kind of, whether it's a pardon or they're going to move for her to get a reduced sentence that there's this idea now that we're hearing she was a victim. To be clear, she is not a victim. She is a monster. There was a trial. She recruited little girls. She groomed them and made them feel safe and then she abused them herself and she helped Epstein abuse them. Right. That was the evidence that came out at trial. To sit with her at this stage post trial is outrageous. It is a slap in the face to the prosecutors and law enforcement who worked hard to bring her to justice. It's an insult to the jury who did their civic duty and delivered that justice by convicting her. And it is a betrayal to the victims who bravely testified against her at that trial and deserved justice. To have that upended by this whole process and to now have a different narrative where somehow she's going to come across as, I don't know, somehow victorious in this and that she's going to not have that set in, stand and get some benefit. I mean, it's abhorrent.

[Unknown News Anchor]

It's not just, I don't think this point can be made enough. There are victims who also didn't testify who are still, they're reliving this trauma and she is being painted as in some way a victim herself, which is completely outrageous. Thank you for making that point. Christy Greenberg, thank you so much for being with us tonight. I really appreciate it. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but after that, we're going to talk about something else, which is fresh off the cancellation of Late Night's Teaban Colbert. The Trump administration is warning that more of the president's critics could face consequences. But not everyone's taken those threats sitting down. We'll talk about that next.

[Rob Lowe]

Foreign is a comedian. And you keep talking about journalism and fairness in news. But I guess where is that line between we all remember Carson and Jay Leno giving Reagan the business? Where does that fit into this discussion? Well, I think that's what's interesting about all of this, is these late night shows, not just the late night shows, but across the board. They have such a storied history and it's sort of sad to see what's happening to Colbert. They obviously can't get it done. They're not making money over there. But I think they need to force correction. And frankly, I think, you know, the media industry across this country needs a course correction.

[Unknown News Anchor]

I think the media across this country needs a course correction. Now, that is an incredibly loaded statement. And for what it's worth, those late night hosts gave every Democratic president from Bill Clinton to Barack Obama to Joe Biden and many more and Republicans in between the business, too, because that's their job. They're late night hosts. They make fun of people in power all the time. That's pretty much what they do. But what you heard there is basically the FCC chairman taking a victory lap in the wake of Paramount's settlement with Donald Trump. The CBS parent company recently paid the President $16 million in response to a winnable, very winnable, frivolous lawsuit. Over a 60 Minutes clip, the president has also said that he expects an additional $20 million in PSAs from the company. Now, the company then not only fired comedian and outspoken Trump critic Stephen Colbert after he criticized that, who also, by the way, happens to be the highest rated late night news host, but they fired him after he criticized that settlement. They also canceled the late night franchise altogether. And what do you know? Just days later, the Trump administration approved Paramount's controversial $8 billion merger with Skydance. Now, you would think, and this was my first reaction when I saw that news a couple days ago, that they could have been just like a skosh more subtle and waited another week or maybe even two at least. But they didn't. It's not just the comedians. This, of course, is just the latest in alarming news that Paramount's corporate board was making radical new decisions and changes to CBS's programming. I mean, back in April, the longtime executive producer of CBS's 60 Minutes quit, citing a loss of journalistic independence. He told staff at the time, and this is a quote, it has become clear that I would not be allowed to run the show as I have always run it, to make independent decisions based on what was right for 60 minutes and right for the audience. Now, whether all of those decisions were due to pressure from the Trump administration or calculations on the part of top executives, we don't entirely fully know. But what is clear is that the Trump administration and his FCC chair would like everyone to know that critics across the airwave should watch their mouths.

[Tim Miller]

Is the view now in the crosshairs of this administration?

[Rob Lowe]

Look, it's entirely possible that there's issues over there. NPR has been defunded, PBS has been defunded. Colbert is getting cancer. You've got anchors in news, media personalities losing their jobs. Again, all of this is downstream of President Trump's decision to stand up. One of the things they're going to have to do is put an ombudsman in place for two years. So basically a bias monitor that will report directly to the president. So that's something that's significant that we're going to see happening as well. And again, as you noted, they've made commitments about unbiased fact based reporting.

[Unknown News Anchor]

I just want to pause here on that last piece because that is actually an insane thing. He just said that again is the chairman of the sec fcc, which regulates media companies. That's what they do. Saying that cbs, an independent media company, needs to have someone at the corporate level ensuring that the news division is being nice enough to the President of the United States. That is a crazy thing to say. And for the folks who cry about cancel culture, and a lot of them are on the right, the Trump administration is literally bragging about canceling comedian who says too many mean things about the most powerful person in the world, President Donald Trump. Boo hoo. I mean, look, all of this taken in its full scope. The Trump administration's complete assault on free speech and the First Amendment is horrifying. The role of independent media is to hold the powerful to account. Believe me, believe me, that can be painful at times. It can lead to very long nights in White Houses, to political candidates losing, to embarrassing scandals or crises being uncovered. And that is exactly the point. That is what media does. They hold power to account. And the speed of which some news organizations are so frontally obeying in advance is fairly stunning. Maybe it shouldn't be, but it is. But the sliver of hope is that there are still creators with platforms that are not afraid to speak out against what we are seeing. And that includes creators within Paramount's portfolio. Here are some who just this week refused to capitulate to Trump's assault. This is 60 Minutes.

[Rob Lowe]

Oh, boy.

[Unknown News Anchor]

Oh.

[Rob Lowe]

Oh, God.

[Tim Miller]

The small town of South Park, Colorado, is protesting against the president. The townspeople claim that the president, who, who is a great man.

[Unknown News Anchor]

A great man.

[Rob Lowe]

Great, great guy.

[Tim Miller]

We know he's probably watching.

[Rob Lowe]

And we are just reporting on this.

[Tim Miller]

Town in Colorado that's being sued by.

[Rob Lowe]

The president and they are fighting back.

[Unknown News Anchor]

And just to be clear, we don't agree with them.

[Rob Lowe]

If you believe as corporations or as networks, you can make yourselves so innocuous that you can serve a gruel so flavorless that you will never again be on the boy king's radar. A why will anyone watch you? And you, you are wrong. On Friday, Donald Trump posted. I absolutely love that Colbert got fired. His talent was even less than his ratings. How dare you, sir? Would an untalented man be able to compose the following satirical witticism, go yourself.

[Unknown News Anchor]

While Trump but his administration continued to assert their control over media and the flow of information, remember that there are voices who are continuing to speak out. Joining me next is someone who was thinking about what Trump's assault on free speech would look like long before he was reelected. That conversation is straight ahead, so stay with us.

[Tim Miller]

Did President Trump have anything to do.

[Rob Lowe]

With Trump with the cancellation of Stephen Colbert's show? Well, here's what's important to keep in mind is a broader dynamic. When President Trump ran for election, he ran right at these legacy broadcast media outfits. There's a lot of consequences that are flowing from President Trump deciding, I'm not going to play by the rules.

[Tim Miller]

I asked you a very direct question. I did not hear a yes or.

[Rob Lowe]

A no in your answer.

[Unknown News Anchor]

Trump's FCC chair, notably, is not denying that Trump played a role in CBS's decision to cancel the Late show with Stephen Colbert. And now the people who make that show are demanding answers. The Writers Guild of America, which represents both the writers of the Late show and many of the journalists at CBS News, is calling on New York Attorney General Letitia James to investigate the decision for potential wrongdoing. It is just one of the many examples of how writers, creators and journalists are refusing to bend the knee to Trump, even as some of their bosses in the C Suite give in to his demands. Joining me now is David Enrich, deputy investigations editor for the New York Times and the author of Murder the Truth, Fear, the First Amendment and A Secret Campaign to Protect the Powerful. David, thank you for being here. I don't know if you knew at the time when you wrote this book, maybe you did, how much of a forecaster you would be in some ways. Let me just start by asking you about this whole Paramount saga. I mean, it began with Trump's incredibly thin defamation case against CBS in 60 Minutes. You are someone who has just written a whole book about the effort to weaponize defamation cases like this in order to hack away at the First Amendment. And as you've watched the last several weeks, how are you thinking about this moment? How should we think about this moment?

[Rob Lowe]

Well, these threats work and these legal actions work and we're seeing that play out in real time. And first with ABC News at the end of last year, now with cbs. And I think the concerning thing that we're starting to see is that it's not only resulting in big companies paying millions of dollars to Donald Trump. It is also, I think, at risk of changing what is the journalism that's being done and how people are speaking about the President. And it's starting to instill fear in some people. And I think that's exactly what the Trump administration is hoping. And I think it's a really dangerous kind of slide away from the values of this country and the First Amendment.

[Unknown News Anchor]

One of the things as I've tried to explain this to people that concerns me, that many of the much of this concerns me is that but in these editorial rooms, the public doesn't know what the discussions are in these editorial rooms. They don't know what calls come down from corporate or what calls come down from anywhere to tell people to soften a story, kill a story, things along those lines help explain to people. Do you agree with me, first of all, but help explain to people how there's a lot that people don't see and that's something that we should also be paying attention to and asking questions about.

[Rob Lowe]

Well, I think I don't want to overstate what's happening. Right. I mean, there are a lot of news organizations out there and a lot of independent journalists and smaller news outlets out there that I think are really fearless and courageous and are doing the right thing. But the truth is when you were doing big kind of hard hitting journalism that affects really powerful and rich and maybe litigious people, you have your lawyers review your work, you look closely at that. And obviously, nobody wants to get sued, and no one wants to have a headache with the most powerful person in the world, especially when that person and his administration have shown a tendency to not just do the stuff in the courts, but to use the leverage that they have running the federal government as kind of a cudgel with which they can beat you outside of the judicial system. So there are a lot of really powerful incentives at play that can lead people, even on the margins, to kind of pull some punches and start dialing back coverage and criticism. And I think, again, we're not really seeing very clear or very many very clear signs of that yet. And I think that's what makes a lot of people kind of skittish about what happened with Colbert, is that that is arguably one of the first big signs that we have seen recently.

[Unknown News Anchor]

Absolutely. And just to be clear, I should be more specific. What I mean is when I read that the statement from the EP from the former executive producer from 60 Minutes, he seemed to be suggesting he didn't feel he could have journalistic independence. And that's what most news organizations have. That's what we have. That's what people should demand. But it is concerning and something we just don't know enough about. Let me ask you, one of the things that struck me in your book is how much you talk about how much the conservative movement used to oppose the kinds of frivolous defamation cases Trump now favors, which is a really interesting point. I didn't know. And I Learned. I mean, 15 years ago, Jeff Sessions and Stephen Miller, we're even championing bipartisan legislation to strengthen protections against these kind of lawsuits. What happened?

[Rob Lowe]

I mean, in a word, Trump happened. And there is a long bipartisan tradition in this country, going back many decades, where people on both the right and the left and everywhere in between recognize that having a free press is really important to our democracy. It's a check on concentrated power regardless of which party is in the White House. And that consensus really collapsed starting around 2016, which, not coincidentally, was when Trump began his rise to power and used the media as a big punching bag and also really set out to undercut and destroy the legitimacy of people and institutions that were willing to stand up to him, and they were willing to call out lies when he lied, or call it distortions when his administration distorted the facts. And I don't think it's a coincidence that we've seen these types of tactics really taking these legal threats and these lawsuits really taking off in popularity at the exact same time that we have a White House and an administration that has really not often, but not all, not always, but often really tried to advance its agenda using lies and distortions. And it's very convenient to discredit the media when they are going to be the ones calling you out on those lies and distortion. So it's a really, it's kind of a real symbiotic situation that they've created where people don't trust the media, they're threatening to sue the media. And it's the media that, at least in theory, should be providing a real check on dishonesty and deception.

[Unknown News Anchor]

No question about that. They're also limiting who has access to a lot of these officials and who's in the briefing room. David Enersh, thank you so much. It's a really excellent book. People want to know more, should pick it up, pick it up this weekend. Thank you so much for joining me this evening. All right, coming up, thousands of people are taking to the streets here at home and elsewhere around the world. More on that just ahead. After a quick break yesterday in Tel Aviv, thousands of people gathered to protest their government's war in Gaza, demanding that it end immediately. This sign reads, trump's legacy crumbles as the Gaza War persists. And another more plainly, starvation is a war crime. This was not the only protest this week. Thousands of others all around the world took to the streets, all voicing their opposition to the overwhelming violence and suffering. This week, more than 100 aid groups warn that Gaza has reached the point of mass starvation. In addition, according to the UN since late May, more than a thousand Palestinians have been killed while trying to get access to food. And while Israel said it would allow foreign countries to begin airdropping aid into Gaza starting today, the backlash over the spiraling hunger crisis continues. Much of this activism is driven by everyday people across the globe who are making their opposition to this tragic war known. Bearing witness is important now more than ever. That does it for me tonight.

[Rob Lowe]

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