← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
Trump's lack of foreign policy principles tears MAGA apart on Iran
00:41:45
Jen Psaki looks at the various influences manipulating Donald Trump as he makes decisions on the war between Israel and Iran without having any personal principles mooring his thinking, and how his lack of leadership is leaving his supporters to fight with each other.
Loading summary
Transcript85 lines
- [00:01]
Nicole Wallace
MSNBC presents a new original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with NBA coach Doc Rivers.
- [00:11]
Doc Rivers
The resiliency that you have to have in life and in sports is what eventually will get you to the top.
- [00:18]
Nicole Wallace
The Best people with Nicole Wallace Listen now. For early access, ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.
- [00:40]
Unknown Analyst
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.
- [00:45]
Nicole Wallace
Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc daily@msnbc.com Here are.
- [01:01]
Unknown Analyst
Some of the headlines we've seen in just the last few hours. Just the last few hours. Axios had a headline that said Trump presses aides on whether Bunker Buster plan to bomb Iran will work. The Wall Street Journal has a headline that says Trump privately approved attack plan for Iran but has withheld final order and Rolling Stone. And man, this is a doozy of a headline. Fox News is demanding war with Iran. Donald Trump is listening. And yeah, I'm going to get to that last one in a moment because the story of how Trump got here and yes, Fox News played a part, no kidding, no surprise, does tell us a lot about how insecure and easy to manipulate this man is, which we all know. But it's just a reminder. Before I get there, I wanted to dig into something else because it's also important because the question of war with Iran has now sparked a bit of a civil war among rival MAGA factions inside the Republican Party.
- [02:00]
If Iran gets a nuclear weapon, I think the odds are unacceptably high that we would find out with a mushroom cloud.
- [02:07]
The American people have been brainwashed into believing that America has to engage in.
- [02:13]
These foreign wars, but we most certainly.
- [02:15]
Need to have regime change in Iran.
- [02:17]
The Bush era doctrine of Russia regime change wars in the Middle east is foolish.
- [02:22]
John Brennan
We got a chance to end a threat to the state of Israel forever by replacing this regime with something better.
- [02:29]
Unknown Analyst
The same crowded Fox all weekend has.
- [02:31]
Been sounding the war toxins. No, we have to make decisions that put America first.
- [02:36]
This is good versus evil. You're either a patriotic American who's going to get behind the President of the United States, the Commander in Chief, or.
- [02:44]
You'Re not so that's just a sampling. You can tell they're not exactly in the same place with each other. So in less than a week, the Republican Party is maga. Part of the Republican Party, which is most of them, has basically torn itself apart over Trump's apparent willingness to go to war with Iran. Perhaps the best illustration of that rupture is what happened yesterday when two of the most insufferable denizens of Magaland, the most, decided to debate each other on camera.
- [03:14]
How many people live in Iran, by the way? I don't know the population at all? No, I don't know the population. You don't know the population of the country you seek to topple? How many people living around 92 million.
- [03:27]
Matt Duss
Okay.
- [03:28]
Doc Rivers
Yeah.
- [03:29]
Unknown Analyst
How could you not know that? I don't sit around memorizing population tables. Well, it's kind of relevant because you're calling for the overthrow of the government. Why is it relevant whether it's 90 million or 80 million or 100 million?
- [03:41]
Why?
- [03:42]
Because if you don't know anything about the country. I didn't say I don't know anything about. Okay. What's the ethnic mix of Iran? They are Persians and predominantly Shia. Okay, you don't know anything about Iran. So, ok, the Tucker Carlson expert on Iran, you're a senator who's calling about the country. No, you don't know anything about the country.
- [04:06]
Okay. That was a part of a two hour interview just to highlight, shall we call it, and I'm sorry you had to watch that or I asked you to watch it. I do think, though, it's an amazing illustration of what Trump has done to his own coalition. As a side note, I have no doubt the staffer who scheduled that is no longer in charge of press interviews for Ted Cruz, maybe no longer working for him. I don't know. But what all of the infighting has brought to the surface is a real confusion about what Trump's worldview actually is right now among the MAGA faithful. I mean, remember, Trump's worldview is MAGA's worldview. They're just going to follow him. And right now they seem to be having a hard time figuring out what to think or how far he's actually going to go. The reason this is striking, one of the reasons, is that most presidents have some sort of guiding view on foreign policy. You may not like it, you may disagree with parts of it, whatever it may be. But typically they have something that shapes how they see the world and America's role in it. But Trump doesn't really have that. His slogan, America first, which his party has tried to portray as some kind of coherent principle guiding his policy choices. It's not. It's a slogan. But just this weekend, Trump told the Atlantic magazine that only he gets to decide what America first really means. Only he gets to decide. That's kind of the point. He doesn't really care about the impact of his decisions, but he absolutely loves being the one who gets to decide. He loves to try and project strength. That can be baseless. He likes to project it. Anything to make him look like he's winning. Because to him, this is all kind of game. I mean, Trump has spoken to the American public about whether he's going to bomb a foreign country twice today. Now, the first time was in front of a bunch of construction workers. I'm sure they were surprised to be standing there at the installation of some new White House flag poles. Yes, that was something he spent time on today. And with that very strange backdrop, with some probably very confused construction workers about why they were there for this, Trump was asked about whether he would take the very significant step of striking Iran. And here's what he had to say. You don't know that I'm going to even do it. You don't know. I may do it. I may not do it. I mean, nobody knows what I'm going to do. I may do it. I may not do it. I mean, nobody knows what I'm going to do. This wasn't a question about what he was having for lunch or where he was planning to go on vacation. It was a question about whether he was going to use US Military resources to bomb Iran. Trump then followed it up with another media appearance where he fielded some questions about possible regime change in Iran. Well, and I am not making this up sitting in front of an Italian soccer team who were also probably confused.
- [06:51]
Doc Rivers
Mr. President, on Iran, if regime change does happen there, if the regime falls, do you have a plan for what you think would happen there?
- [07:00]
Unknown Analyst
I have a plan for everything, but we'll see what happens.
- [07:02]
Doc Rivers
Do you think in the future regime that could fall?
- [07:05]
Unknown Analyst
Sure, anything could happen. Right of that. Sure, that could happen. Regime change. Sure, anything could happen. That from the guy who claimed he was going to keep America out of foreign wars, including the one he might start at any moment. I mean, we know Trump made clear to Prime Minister Netanyahu that he didn't want him to strike Iran right up until he did strike Iran, or that's what the reporting tells us. I mean, literally hours before it happened. Trump also told reporters that he would, quote, love to avoid a conflict. So how did we go from there to a guy who was openly musing repeatedly about bombing Iran? According to new reporting, this is basically the case of a weak and insecure Trump being manipulated by a number of predictable sources, some of them foreign leaders and some of them, yes, television networks.
- [08:01]
Doc Rivers
Yes.
- [08:01]
Unknown Analyst
We were coming back to Fox News. According to reporting from the New York Times, Trump came to believe the Iranians were playing him in the diplomatic negotiations. Basically, his ego was hurt. He thought he could just get a quick deal done with the Iranians years after he had ripped up the old one. But guess what? It's not that easy. The old one took years, years of negotiations. And at the same time, Prime Minister Netanyahu knew to stroke his ego. And he was telling Trump that he should prepare military plans as a backup to strengthen his hand diplomatically, while also briefing him on the complexity of Israel's plans, which he was impressed by, reportedly. Then by launching preventative attacks on Iran in defiance of the White House. According to reports, Netanyahu may have succeeded at backing Trump into a bit of a corner. I mean, as the Times notes, Netanyahu appears to have judged correctly that Mr. Trump would ultimately come around. So Netanyahu is betting that the United States will finish the job that he started. That's where we are now. And that effort seems to have gotten a big assist from the President's TV network of choice. As the Times also reports, when Trump woke up Friday morning, his favorite TV channel, Fox News, was broadcasting wall to wall imagery of what it was portraying as Israel's military genius. And Trump could not resist claiming some credit for himself. Here is just a sliver, a sliver of what Trump may have seen in the hours and days after those attacks took place. A lot of people saying that right now it looks like Iran has somewhat been humiliated.
- [09:33]
Iran's concept of territorial security has just been obliterated.
- [09:39]
Israel wouldn't have attacked if they didn't feel like the time is now.
- [09:41]
They are executing at a level that any military in the world, I think.
- [09:45]
Would be pretty envious of. It's an extraordinary success. It is in the United States core national interest to help Israel destroy completely this nuclear enterprise. Be all in President Trump in helping.
- [09:59]
John Brennan
Israel eliminate the nuclear threat.
- [10:02]
Matt Duss
Do you think the President has decided already to strike Iran?
- [10:07]
Unknown Analyst
I hope so. I hope so. I hope the President of the United States has decided to take military action against Iran and not in defense, but just proactively along with Israel. I Hope so. That's what he had to say. You Hewitt. And Fox's drumbeat to war is apparently working. I mean, Rolling Stone reported late today that according to an administration official and another close associate of the commander in Chief, Trump's heavy consumption of Fox News content is increasing his appetite for direct military confrontation with Iran. Just let that sink in for a second. The President of the United States is refusing to believe the assessments of the entire intelligence community and instead is listening to what whatever talking heads on Fox have to say about this conflict and those hot takes of the day could have already determined, maybe they have, whether or not the US Goes to war. As the Wall Street Journal reports, Trump has already approved attack plans for Iran, but is holding off to see if Tehran will abandon its nuclear program. Something, by the way, that Iran has ruled out publicly on multiple occasions. So look, there are certain moments when we are reminded why leadership matters in the Oval Office. I mean, the question of war and peace is certainly a big central, maybe the biggest one of when to put American lives at risk. It's one of the hardest things that comes on the desk of any president. But this president treats the potential for war as a game and he's taking his cues from Netanyahu and Fox News. This isn't a story really about some high minded debate over what America first really means or even about MAGA on MAGA disagreement. This is a story about an insecure kid watching TV and playing Battleship. Got two people standing by who I've been looking forward to talking with all day. John Brennan is the former Director of the CIA. Matt Duss is the Executive Vice President at the center for International Policy. They join me here at the table in just 90. Joining me now, as promised, are two experienced experts on intelligence and foreign policy. And I think they have a lot of thoughts of what I just talked about. John Brennan is former CIA director and MSNBC Senior National Security Analyst. And Matt Dust is Executive Vice President at the center for International Policy and also formerly a foreign policy advisor to Senator Bernie Sanders. Let me just start. I think a lot of people are trying to make sense, I think we all are, of what's happening, how we got here, what could happen. Let me start with you, Director Brennan. This feels to me like this is very risky, but also preemptive in a way that military action is not often considered this seriously by administrations. I mean, this is taking military action is not the first choice of any president typically, or the team working around them. What do you make of this moment?
- [13:06]
Matt Duss
Well, you could call this a preventive strike by Israel. This is the third one this century. You know, the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003, Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2022. And here we are with the Israeli strikes against the Iranian nuclear facilities and capability. The previous two didn't go out go well. This one I don't think is going well either. From the standpoint of what is the end game here. We know that the Israelis have been able to degrade significantly Iran's nuclear capabilities. But Bibi Netanyahu knew full well when he went into this that he wasn't going to be able to destroy the primary nuclear facility that they're of concern with, which is Fordow, which is underground, which only the United States has the capability with these massive ordnance penetrators, the MOP bombs, to be able to go down several hundred feet and try to destroy those centrifuges, those advanced centrifuges that are there. So, again, I think Benjamin Netanyahu was very clever in terms of getting Donald Trump to this point, knowing full well that the momentum was going to build in terms of pressure on Trump to join in, which is what Trump now is doing. He's changed his rhetoric, certainly. I think he's, you know, said he's the president who doesn't get us into foreign wars. Well, it seems as though he's actively considering now a strike against Fordow, which means that there is a potential for Iran to strike back against US Personnel, US Facilities, which could lead to, in fact, US Deaths.
- [14:28]
Unknown Analyst
I mean, Director Brennan compared this to Iraq, which I think is an interesting one, that there hasn't been enough focus on in terms of what this could mean for the public. Fordao, it's not just Fordow. It wouldn't just be that. So let's talk about that. Because no military action ends with one strike. How should people be thinking about this in terms of comparing it to past wars? And what should they understand about what the implications could be beyond a strike on Fordow, if that's what they decide?
- [14:53]
Doc Rivers
Sure. I mean. Well, first I'd say it's. Everyone should remember that the US And Iran were engaged in diplomacy before this attack happened. There were talks, further talks scheduled for Sunday. I think they had moved slowly and then, then faster. There was some evidence that the two sides were coming closer together. Clearly still a long way to go, but diplomacy was progress progressing, and ultimately that was the best way to deal with the Iranian nuclear program. We saw this in 2015. The agreement that Obama was able to get with the Iranians put their nuclear program.
- [15:22]
Unknown Analyst
What do you think happened here?
- [15:23]
Doc Rivers
I think, you know, the problem with Netanyahu is just he's afraid of an agreement. He's always opposed an agreement. He opposed Obama's agreement. He came to the Congress to argue against Obama's agreement. And again, I think he saw his moment. He was afraid that Trump could be, you know, moving toward an agreement that he didn't think was sufficient. I don't think Netanyahu thinks any agreement would be sufficient. So he moved. And as you said earlier, Trump spent the night, the rest of the night watching Fox News and all the glorious explosions and all the praising of Israel's strikes. And again, they were impressive from a military standpoint. The first few days and weeks of the U.S. invasion of Iraq were very impressive from a military standpoint. But then something else happened that did not turn out well. So I think that's a very appropriate comparison. And your question about what happens to Fordeau, even if the United States does get involved, it will not just be a series of strikes. You then at some point, even if you've gotten the, you've struck the sites that you know about, there are sites that, that we perhaps don't know about. A lot of experts believe there are sites beyond.
- [16:25]
Unknown Analyst
And then they strike back.
- [16:27]
Doc Rivers
And then they strike back. But even if you have done enormous damage to the nuclear program, which the United States certainly could do, at some point, you have to have boots on the ground to assess whether you've done the appropriate amount of damage to put a stop to or at least that's right, either U.S. troops and occupying troops or troops accompanying U.S. or other troops accompanying inspectors. So there are so many different ways that this could easily draw the United States into a protracted conflict. Even before we talk about Iran's retaliation in the region or elsewhere.
- [16:59]
Unknown Analyst
One of the things I played both of the clips of Trump and what he said today, because it struck me. I mean, you've seen, we've all seen presidents make these decisions and how seriously it weighs on them. And he was quite flippant. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. We'll see. I don't know what I'll do until I make a decision last minute. How did that strike you?
- [17:18]
Matt Duss
Well, I think that's a hallmark of his foreign policy formulation, which is very ad hoc. I believe that he doesn't know what he's going to do.
- [17:26]
Unknown Analyst
You don't think he knows?
- [17:27]
Matt Duss
I don't think he knows at this point. I think he may have been positioning US Forces to be in a position in order to strike, should he give the direction B2 bombers, you know, need to take off, whatever else. But he could wait until the last moment to decide. And I do think he's watching Fox News. I think he is taking calls from different players on this and, you know, points of influence. So at this point, I'm not certain that he is going down this road. He may in fact be pulling back now, given that Tucker Carlson came out so forcefully against Ted Cruz.
- [17:57]
Unknown Analyst
I did force people to watch that, but yeah, yeah.
- [18:00]
Matt Duss
And I think he is concerned about getting the United States involved in a military conflict that could have been and should have been avoided.
- [18:06]
Unknown Analyst
You wrote this piece, Matt, today about how Democrats should reclaim the anti war mantle from Trump. And that's why, I mean, one of the pieces of, seriously, the Iraq war, the anti Iraq war, I mean, Obama ran against the Iraq war, others have run against the Iraq war. What does that look like? There's this strange coalition maybe forming in Congress. We'll see. But what does that look like for Democrats in this moment?
- [18:26]
Doc Rivers
Well, I think the thing to keep in mind is Donald Trump ran in 2016 and in 2024 as an anti war president. Again, I'm not taking Trump at his word. No one should ever take Donald Trump at his word. But I do think we should note that he said that because he understood that there is an actual anti war constituency in this country. As he said, great nations don't fight endless wars. He was a huge critic of the Iraq war, the global war on terror, because it was wasteful. The American people were getting ripped off. I think he was right about a lot of that and a lot of Americans certainly think he was right. So I do think he's leaving a big space for another leader to come in and really speak for this constituency who are tired of these, these global military interventions, tired of these wars, very concerned that we seem to be on the brink of yet another war. And to really articulate a vision of an America that is not withdrawing from the world by any circumstance, but is actually, you know, really interested in global peacemaking. That's how Donald Trump promoted himself, someone who was going to make peace. That has not worked out. But I think the fact that he got support indicates that a lot of Americans are hungry for that vision, no question about it.
- [19:33]
Unknown Analyst
I mean, you just see the polls of how people feel about this potential war. It's very clear factor here that I think hasn't gotten enough attention is how the world sees this. Right. I mean, you have Putin who's still moving forward militarily, trying to take more land from Ukraine. How does he look at this?
- [19:49]
Matt Duss
I think he, like many others, sees Donald Trump as an unserious leader, that he really doesn't understand the complexities of these situations. And so he's watching, I think, very carefully the way Donald Trump reacts to this. Also sure that the G7 leaders up in Canada were looking at Donald Trump, you know, with probably their mouths agape, you know, just wondering what is in this person's mind because he does not project any type of principled foreign policy position. Again, he makes it up as he goes. And, you know, his comments, his tweets, other types of things, they're very unprecedential, but they're also signaling to the world that this is a person who can be manipulated, which I think Bibi Netanyahu did. And I think also Vladimir Putin will do it as well as others. And so this is something that I think really worries many of us.
- [20:35]
Unknown Analyst
He does aspire to be like them, but they maybe laughing at him a little bit. Matt Dust, Director Brennan, thank you both so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
- [20:42]
Doc Rivers
Thank you.
- [20:43]
Unknown Analyst
Coming up, it is no secret that Barack Obama picks his spots on what to say very carefully. We're going to have more on what he said last night in just a moment. We'll talk about it too. But first, we're seeing roundups of immigrants across the country and we literally have no idea who is doing the rounding up because people are not identifying themselves. We've got some brand new reporting about why that is such a dangerous problem. And I'm going to tell you about it when we come back. I have asked for IDs. Can you please tell me that you refused to give us your IDs?
- [21:20]
John Brennan
We don't need to give you IDs.
- [21:21]
Unknown Analyst
You don't need to give us IDs.
- [21:23]
We do not need to give you IDs.
- [21:24]
So how do we know you're federal? How do we know you're federal? That was the scene in Great Barrington, Massachusetts, late last month as masked men with guns grabbed a gardener from his work site and drove away with him in an unmarked car with blacked out windows. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, also known as ice, has since confirmed those masked men were federal immigration agents. But at the time, there was no way to know that other than trusting their word. One of the witnesses who filmed that video later told the Washington Post, quote, it could have been like a band of the Proud Boys or something. This is video from the LA Times last Monday showing what witnesses say was an ICE raid in Compton in which officers arrested five to seven people. I have to say witnesses say it was an ICE raid because even more than a week later than when that happened, no federal agency has confirmed that the people in that video were theirs. And this is not isolated. I mean, all across the country, immigrants are being arrested by federal immigration agents who provide little to no identification and who are frequently masked. Unfortunately, we don't even have to speculate about the dangers of that practice. We know them. In late January, a man in North Carolina was arrested for allegedly pretending to be an ICE officer to sexually assault a woman. In April, a woman in Florida was arrested for allegedly posing as ICE to kidnap her ex boyfriend's wife. And just last week in Philadelphia, there was this.
- [22:50]
Unknown Reporter
This man was posing as a federal immigration officer when he walked into this car repair business radio right next door to The Philadelphia Police 15th District and Northeast detectives and robbed it Sunday afternoon. The man wearing a badge, blue latex gloves, a tactical vest saying security law enforcement agent with a black baseball hat and sunglasses on. This second surveillance photo shows him when he zip tied the cashier, who told me she's from the Dominican Republic, a legal resident since 2007, and says every time she turned around to try to get a good look at the man's face, he strongly twisted her around, bruising her arm, telling her he was with Immigration and Customs Enforcement, better known as ice.
- [23:33]
Unknown Analyst
Considering how wrong arrests by officers who do not identify themselves can go, I want you to take a look at this video from Pasadena, California, northeast of Los Angeles, from just this morning. You can see men waiting at a bus stop outside of a donut shop. Multiple unmarked cars pull up beside the bus stop, see the cars right there. We then see masked armed men, then get out of the car and chase two men from the bus stop, chase them, handcuffing them and taking them away. Local advocates say six immigrants were taken in total. As those unmarked cars were driving away, a bystander attempted to take a photo of one of the car's license plates. You can see it there. Only to have the driver get out of the car and point what appears to be a gun at him. Again, this is an incident in which we have to say, this appears to be federal law enforcement, this appears to be ice, but local officials don't know for certain, and ICE isn't commenting. Now, we believe that this incident was almost definitely ice, but we can't say that for certain. And that is a problem. A huge problem. Pasadena residents are understandably furious about those men being snatched off the street, especially this way today. And the city isn't taking this sitting down tonight. Local immigrant rights groups and Pasadena residents are back at the bus stop where this happened to voice their outrage. NBC's David Noriega is live for us in Pasadena tonight, and he joins me next.
- [25:20]
Doc Rivers
Leave our city.
- [25:30]
Unknown Analyst
That was just a sampling of the reaction from locals in Pasadena, California this morning after what we believe were armed and masked ICE agents arrested arresting multiple people at a bus stop, just grabbing them off the street with no stated reason. ICE officials have yet to confirm these were, in fact their agents. But local advocates say six immigrants were taken this morning. Understandably, the community is furious and it wants answers. So tonight, activists and Pasadena residents organized a vigil on the very same street corner where these immigrants were taken. NBC's David Noriega takes us there. He's there live now. David, this was put together very quickly, this vigil. You're standing there with a lot of people who are from the community. Tell us about the crowd, what they're saying, what their reactions are to the events of this morning.
- [26:19]
Yeah, here, I'll show you a little bit as well, because the crowd that you see behind me, as you say, was put together very quickly in just a matter of hours. This is the exact corner where those arrests took place. Behind me, that's the donut shop that you mentioned. People kind of came out of. And there's a parking lot behind me over there that is jam packed full of people. There are several hundred people that came out for this organized in just a matter of hours. And that shows you kind of the extent, not only of the organizing, but that was already in place in a place like Pasadena to respond to an event like this, but also kind of the authentic reaction that you get from a community like this to incidents like this. Because it's not only, Jen, it's not only everything that you mentioned about how, you know, agents are doing this with their faces covered in unmarked cars without answering questions. It's also the fact that in many instances, the people who are getting picked up are effectively disappearing, in some cases for three days, four days or even longer. Their loved ones, their lawyers can't find them, can't get in touch with them. That is a big part of what's provoking this reaction in people. And one of the things that I've been sort of talking to people about is that the response that we've seen from LA in the last couple of weeks is in many ways an authentic and spontaneous reaction from A community that was not necessarily organizing in response to this, but it did build on a core of existing years long organizing by community groups like a day labor worker center that's about two blocks away from here that helped organize this rally and has been putting together what they call rapid response networks, know your rights trainings, preparing specifically for moments like this one. So these kinds of expressions are, you know, natural popular expressions building on top of that kind of organizing. And what the folks who put this together are trying to do is sort of, it's, it's in very simple terms just a show of force and it's clearly working, right. They have these signs. Everybody who drives by is honking their support. And the fact that this is exactly where the raids happened this morning is intended to show if you do this kind of thing here, this is what will result. And that is in fact what has resulted from those federal agents actions this morning.
- [28:26]
Jim, people will show up and they'll show up in force. I want to ask you, you referenced this and I referenced it. Just the number of ICE agents or people saying they're ICE agents showing up masked, not presenting identification, refusing to identify themselves. How much of a concern is that? I imagine it's a big one from the folks you've been talking to in Pasadena.
- [28:50]
It's a huge concern. Not just in Pasadena, all over L. A. It's deeply troubling. Look, the families that I've spoken to who are, who have had loved ones picked up in these raids describe it as absolutely terrifying, shocking in a way that they that were absolutely not prepared for. The organizers who are responding to it say that it's completely unacceptable. And by the way, it's not just immigrant rights groups. It's not just, you know, the sorts of people you would expect. It's also, you know, there's a group of faith leaders here, for example, not just from Hispanic, Mexican, Latino churches, faith leaders from a number of different, you know, communities, churches. I talked to a number of them right when this rally started. I want to play you a little bit of what one pastor from a church here in Pasadena had to say when I asked him, you know, what is the purpose of you showing up here like this today? What are you accomplishing by being here? Take a listen to what he said.
- [29:40]
Unknown Pastor
I would invert the question if we didn't come out. What it would say would be that we would accept the abuse of our rights in silence. Like people's rights are being abused, people's rights are being violated. There are masked people in unmarked cars that are coming into communities and abducting people and we don't know where they're going, they're due process is being violated. And so if we didn't come out, it would be saying that we accept this, that we are in agreement with this, and we are absolutely not. Because these abductions of our neighbors and of our community members are also trial runs for what this administration will attempt to do to citizens and other people who are their political opponents. So if we don't stand up to stop it now, the question is where will it end? When will it stop? So we all have to rise up. Even if you don't feel like you care about this, do you care about yourself? Because I'm telling you, this is a trial run for what they will attempt to do to other people. So I'm out here because I care about my fellow humans. My faith commands it. And I'm out here because I'm here to say that we will not stand for the abuse of our rights and for the abuse of our community and our neighbors. It has to stop somewhere. So that's why I'm out here, because we can't not be out here right now.
- [30:56]
Unknown Analyst
That's a sentiment I've heard from a number of people, Jen, including, we've talked about this, the US Citizen children of immigrants who say that it's not just their undocumented parents who are in danger, but they and other US Citizens who look a certain way or live in a certain community are they feel like they are targets too. And again, the goal here is very simple. It's to show a cause and effect. When these kinds of enforcement actions happen in this way in communities like this one, this is what will happen. We've seen how the administration has responded in turn. It's, you know, to be seen to what extent this escalates.
- [31:26]
Jen, I love what he said about inverting the question. It's such a good way of thinking about this moment. David Noriega, thank you for your tireless reporting from LA and from peaceful protests and telling us what's happening on the ground. I really appreciate you being with us tonight. Thank you. And coming up, we're going to talk about some rare public comments from my former boss, President Barack Obama. I'm going to show you what he said and talk about it with the president person who wants to be the next governor of Georgia. We're back after a quick break. In just five months. It's been five months. Can you believe it? The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America. And not in a good way, to state the obvious, warping it into a country where mass agents and militarized law enforcement targeting immigrants in their communities is an everyday thing, where critical institutions and services are guided in the name of rooting out diversity and inclusion, and where the president proudly talks about liberating American cities from the enemies from within. But while that might be the America we currently find ourselves in, there's another vision for America worth working towards. Last night, former president Barack Obama laid out what he believes to be at the core of that America.
- [32:47]
Barack Obama
What makes America exceptional is not that it has the biggest military, it's not that it has the largest economy. What really makes America exceptional is that it's the only big country on earth and maybe the only real superpower in history that is made up of people from every corner of the globe. And they show up, they come here.
- [33:25]
Unknown Analyst
And.
- [33:28]
Barack Obama
The glue that holds us together is this crazy experiment called democracy. And this idea that we can somehow, despite all our differences, we don't look alike, we don't worship God in the same way, we don't like the same foods. And yet when this experiment works, it gives the world a little bit of hope because it says it is possible for human beings who are not bound by tribe or race or blood, but are instead bound by an idea that they can somehow work together and arrive at a common good.
- [34:27]
Unknown Analyst
So we wanted to end this show tonight with a little some dose of hope because there are people running for office, there are people who have different visions for the country than what we're seeing and what we spend a lot of time. Time talking about. Joining me now is Keisha Lance. Bottom she's the former mayor of Atlanta, former senior adviser to President Joe Biden. She's now a candidate for governor in Georgia. You are many other things. I just couldn't list all everything in your bio because we wouldn't have time to talk. But that was one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you. So Georgia is like a microcosm in some ways, in my view, for a lot of the things the country is facing that I think so many of us are trying to understand right now. I mean, I've spent a little bit of time on the show talking about ICE raids and the fear that is invoking communities. I mean, over the weekend in Atlanta, a Spanish language reporter originally from El Salvador was arrested outside, well, outside of Atlanta, I should say, while covering the no Kings protest. He filmed it. We've all seen it, I'm sure You've seen it. There are so many stories like that. How do you. First of all, what is your reaction to that story? And tell us more broadly about how the ICE raids are impacting Atlanta, some of the communities that you're running to govern and how you would approach it.
- [35:36]
John Brennan
People are living in fear. And unfortunately, this is becoming an everyday occurrence. So you have a reporter who's exercising his First Amendment right to cover a protest. He's been documenting this on social media. And then he's detained by ice. And what's happening in Georgia is happening across his country. It's causing people to go into the shadows. They don't know who's showing up at their door, their churches, their school graduations, and where is the due process in all of this. So what's happening in Georgia, we see happening across the country. We see the chaos that Trump has created in Los Angeles. I remember that very well from my term as mayor. He was president for three years. He is the author of chaos. And unlike previous administrations, whether you were a part of the same political party or not, usually you have the federal government and the White House working to help in cities, in towns and communities across the nation. And unfortunately, this Trump 2.0 is more of the same.
- [36:47]
Unknown Analyst
You're running to be governor. You would be governor if you're elected at a time when Trump is still president. You've dealt with him before, I should say, in many ways. We could see there's a pattern of what he likes to do. I mean, he could still be in a place, we don't know where he wants to send the National Guard or members of the Marines to Georgia. While you're the governor, what do you do?
- [37:06]
John Brennan
Well, you know, Jim, for me, November was this wake up call where I woke up the day after the election going, what does this mean for me? What does it mean for my family? What does it mean for my community? And then as we moved along and he was sworn in, I found myself asking, what am I called to do in this moment? So my family goes back at least five generations in Georgia. We can only trace our family back to a plantation in Crawfordville, Georgia. Five generations. But what I know about Georgia is that it's always been a place of opportunity. And even in the worst of times, my people didn't give up on Georgia. They didn't give up on America. We are the cradle of the civil rights movement in America. John Lewis didn't give up. Martin Luther King Jr. Didn't give up. So many people didn't give up on what was possible in this country. And Donald Trump is not going to take that away from me or anybody else in Georgia. He can create chaos, but he can't take away our hope and what we know is possible in this country.
- [38:13]
Unknown Analyst
One of the things that I think is unfortunately driving down a lot of people's hope, maybe preventing people from running for office, frankly, is rising political violence. We obviously saw that in Minnesota this weekend with the tragic deaths of a leader there and her husband. What do you, how do you think about that? What can be done about that as somebody who's running to lead a very important state in the country, Jan?
- [38:37]
John Brennan
I mean, it's something that unfortunately we have to think about, but I know it's rooted in wanting people to step away from being a part of our democracy. And I won't say that it's not troubling because it is troubling. And we saw the absolute worst happen in Minnesota. And my heart just goes out to those families. Their loved ones are healing families. Family members are preparing to bury loved ones. And that's a really dark reality that we are facing in this country. So what I do personally, I pray and I tell my children, you know, God is still on the throne. No matter what's happening, I won't be turned around and I'm not going to be afraid. And my family shouldn't be afraid. And none of us should be afraid to be a part of the process, because that's what they want. They want to have us step away and be afraid to serve. And if you think about so many people who've served in this country, if fear were the reason that people didn't step up and run for office, we'd be in a really bad place. So sometimes you have to do things afraid. And I know for many of us, it's even in the memory of those who have put their lives on the line. And I just encourage people on both sides to think about what you're saying that creates this moment.
- [40:12]
Unknown Analyst
I think that's such an important message for people to hear. I mean, everybody has a voice. Everybody has a role to play. You obviously are attempting to take a very big role. Acacia Lance Bottoms, thank you so much for joining us. I know running for governor is not an easy thing to do. Really appreciate you being here.
- [40:26]
John Brennan
Thank you.
- [40:27]
Unknown Analyst
Coming up, something pretty powerful is happening in Minnesota right now. I'm going to tell you what we're looking at right there on the screen. I'm going to talk more about it, why so many people came together tonight when we come back right now in Minnesota. People from across the state are gathered at the steps of the capitol building in St. Paul. You can kind of see the scenes right there on the screen to honor the lives of House speaker emerita Melissa Hortman and her husband Mark. We've talked on our show about the tragic circumstances surrounding their violent deaths, allegedly because of their killer's politics. But I wanted to take a moment to talk about who Melissa Hortman was as a person and as a public servant. Melissa first ran for a seat in the state legislature back in 1998, but lost the race. She tried again a few years later and still came up short. But Melissa knew that public service was her calling and tried yet again. Then in 2004, she was finally elected to the Minnesota House by just a few hundred votes. She was resilient and ambitious and by 2018, was elected House Speaker. Minnesota Governor Tim Walz has called her the most consequential speaker in state history. And that's a sentiment many of her colleagues echo. Under her leadership, Democrats achieved universal free school meals, paid family medical leave, codified access to abortion, end felony voting rights restoration. She even snuck in some money in the state budget for tree planting. That's the kind of person she was. At the heart of her call to be a public servant, even at a time when it is increasingly dangerous to do so, was her dedication to making the lives of her neighbors better, which is what all public service should be about, what every public servant should try to do. And tonight, on the steps of the Minnesota State Capitol, those neighbors and that community and the Hortmans poured so much into it on full display. Look at all the people there holding their candles from all across the state. A very powerful moment at a time when we need some light in our lives. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok for now. Goodbye from Washington and we'll see you next week.
- [42:46]
Nicole Wallace
MSNBC presents a new original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, she sits down with NBA coach Doc Rivers.
- [42:56]
Doc Rivers
The resiliency that you have to have in life and in sports is what eventually will get you to the top.
- [43:04]
Nicole Wallace
The best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now. For early access and ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.