Trump's sketchy prosecutor switch made clear with expected Comey indictment

Summary

The Briefing with Jen Psaki – Episode Summary

Episode: Trump’s sketchy prosecutor switch made clear with expected Comey indictment
Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Jen Psaki (MSNBC)
Main Theme:
This episode discusses the Trump administration's alleged political weaponization of the Justice Department, focusing on the anticipated indictment of former FBI Director James Comey, controversial prosecutorial firings and hirings, attacks on free speech (highlighted by the Jimmy Kimmel-ABC incident), and broader patterns of using executive power to target perceived enemies. The episode features in-depth interviews and analysis with Preet Bharara (former SDNY U.S. Attorney) and journalist Terry Moran.

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1. The Expected Indictment of James Comey

Starts at [01:01]

Main Points:

• Breaking News: The Trump administration is preparing to indict former FBI Director James Comey, widely viewed as a political vendetta.
• Context:
  • Trump has long resented Comey, especially after the Russia probe, despite Comey’s controversial pre-election reopening of the Clinton email investigation in 2016.
  • Trump fired Comey early in his first term for refusing loyalty and not clearing him in the Russia investigation.

“Indicting the former director of the FBI in a transparent attempt at political score is an absolutely brazen abuse of political power.” — Jen Psaki [01:09]

• Prior Attempts: Trump previously urged the DOJ to investigate Comey and Hillary Clinton, but White House aides warned him such steps could result in impeachment.
• Anticipated Charges: The indictment is said to center on Comey allegedly lying to the Senate Judiciary Committee about authorizing a leak concerning the Clinton case.
  • DOJ Inspector General found no wrongdoing by Comey on this matter.
  • Months-long investigations failed to establish probable cause against Comey; statute of limitations expires in just six days, suggesting a rushed process.

Notable Quote:

“It’s not exactly clear what the meat of the argument is based on. All of this seems pretty questionable, to say the least.” — Jen Psaki [05:16]

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2. Manipulation of U.S. Attorneys & Prosecutorial Changes

Starts at [06:41]

Key Developments:

• Trump Fires Appointee: Trump fired Derek Siebert, his hand-picked U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, when Siebert refused to indict another Trump adversary (Letitia James).
• Replacement: Lindsey Halligan, a Trump loyalist and former defense team member with minimal trial experience, was installed to replace Siebert.
  • Halligan’s selection was reportedly based partly on a personal encounter at a Trump golf event.

“Trump made it very clear he was firing this prosecutor because the man would not go along with Trump's plans to just indict his enemies, regardless of the evidence.” — Jen Psaki [06:50]

• Pressure on Justice Officials: Trump openly admitted to wanting Siebert gone for his lack of “action.”
• Wider Pattern: Trump is also installing loyalists in other key U.S. attorney’s offices.

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3. Interview with Preet Bharara

Starts at [12:56]

Insights:

• On the Weakness of the Case:
  • Bharara stresses that the case against Comey must be extremely weak, as even Trump’s own appointee (Siebert) and several career prosecutors signed off stating charges could not be brought.

“Think about how weak that case had to have been for that U.S. Attorney to write that memo...and then decide to walk away from the best job he may ever have as a public servant.” — Preet Bharara [14:19]

• Grand Jury Process:

  • He notes potential for the grand jury to reject the indictment.
  • Explains DOJ guidelines requiring prosecutors to present exculpatory evidence.
  • Warns about the scandal multiplying if more prosecutors resign or are fired.

• On Possible Arrest Tactics:

  • Expresses concern that Trump’s team could attempt a humiliating arrest of Comey (e.g., “armed agents at 6am”).

• Malicious Prosecution Argument:

  • Points out that all steps (firing prosecutors, rushing evidence, social media pressure) may contribute to a strong case for “malicious, selective, or vindictive prosecution.”

“If there’s going to be a meritorious argument for vindictive prosecution, the facts are here in this case.” — Preet Bharara [19:54]

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4. Attacks on Media and Free Speech: The Jimmy Kimmel-ABC Controversy

Starts at [22:49]

Main Points:

• Incident: Late-night host Jimmy Kimmel was suspended by ABC (owned by Disney) after Trump's FCC Chairman Brandon Carr warned ABC: “We can do this the easy way or the hard way,” implying government retaliation for anti-Trump jokes.
• Backlash and Reinstatement: The suspension led to boycotts, activism, and rare bipartisan defense of free speech, including from Republican Senators Rand Paul and Ted Cruz.
• Kimmel’s On-Air Response:

“A government threat to silence a comedian the president doesn’t like is anti-American. That’s anti-American.” — Jimmy Kimmel [24:43]

• Mass Viewership: Kimmel’s return drew over 6 million TV viewers (plus 26 million digital views), far surpassing his normal audience.
• Takeaways: Psaki and Moran agree the debacle backfired on the administration, strengthening public resolve for free speech.

---

5. Interview with Terry Moran on the Free Speech Crisis

Starts at [25:53]

Insights:

• Authenticity and Public Reaction:
  • Moran lauds Kimmel’s authenticity, credits public solidarity for Disney’s decision.
  • Points out deep, bipartisan attachment to First Amendment, even among some Trump supporters.

“This administration will try to silence its critics with the power of the state...the American people won’t have that.” — Terry Moran [26:21]

• Business Considerations:

  • Disney likely acted due to bottom-line concerns and activism, but corporate interests may temper their willingness to confront the administration in the future.
  • Moran explains Disney’s leverage over affiliates and wider industry implications.

• Trump’s Political Calculus:

  • Trump balances his desire to attack the media with populist instincts — doesn’t want to be seen as “the censor of America.”

• Comparative Media Landscapes:

  • Moran warns of “crony capitalism” trends seen in authoritarian states, while also arguing American media’s fragmentation makes total control impossible.

---

6. DOJ Weaponization: Alex Jones and the Sandy Hook Lawsuits

Starts at [36:33]

Main Points:

• Background on Alex Jones:
  • Infowars host known for conspiracy theories, including accusations that the Sandy Hook massacre was staged.
  • Jones lost civil suits against him by Sandy Hook families, resulting in $1.4B in damages.
• Trump DOJ Official’s Involvement:
  • Ed Martin, Trump’s DOJ appointee, met with Jones and three days later sent a letter to Sandy Hook first responder William Aldenberg implying he was under criminal investigation related to lawsuits against Jones.
  • Jones publicized the letter as “proof” of DOJ and Democratic “conspiracy” against him.
• Public Response:
  • Widespread outrage led to DOJ retracting the letter, but the disinformation damage remains.
  • Jones claims more such actions are coming, with Martin allegedly continuing investigations to aid Jones.

“A top DOJ official handpicked by the President of the United States is weaponizing the Justice Department to help Alex Jones, of all people, attack a Sandy Hook shooting first responder.” — Jen Psaki [42:46]

---

7. Trump and Epstein: Controversial Public Art

Starts at [43:36]

Main Points:

• Statue Installation: A statue titled “Best Friends Forever” celebrating the relationship between Trump and Jeffrey Epstein was installed in front of the U.S. Capitol.
• Sudden Removal: Park Police removed it early in the morning, despite organizers’ claims of a valid permit.
• Symbolism: Psaki notes the incident is “quite the metaphor” for Trump’s ongoing efforts to erase or obscure his connection to Epstein.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jen Psaki on Abuse of Power:
  “Indicting the former director of the FBI in a transparent attempt at political score is an absolutely brazen abuse of political power.” [01:09]
• Preet Bharara on Prosecutorial Independence:
  “Think about how weak that case had to have been for that U.S. Attorney to write that memo...and then decide to walk away from the best job he may ever have as a public servant.” [14:19]
• Jimmy Kimmel on Free Speech:
  “A government threat to silence a comedian the president doesn’t like is anti-American. That’s anti-American.” [24:43]
• Terry Moran on Solidarity:
  “Solidarity works. Standing up for each other, standing up for each other’s rights and freedoms when they come under assault...you can come together and stop it. Not stop it, but at least check it.” [27:45]
• Jen Psaki on DOJ Weaponization:
  “A top DOJ official handpicked by the President of the United States is weaponizing the Justice Department to help Alex Jones, of all people...” [42:46]

---

Key Timestamps

• [01:01] – Introduction to expected Comey indictment and Trump’s vendetta
• [03:45] – Comey’s own advice on handling Trump’s intimidation tactics
• [06:41] – Trump fires prosecutor Siebert; installs loyalist Lindsey Halligan
• [12:56] – Preet Bharara interview begins
• [22:49] – Jimmy Kimmel-ABC free speech controversy
• [25:53] – Terry Moran interview on free speech and media
• [36:33] – Ed Martin, Alex Jones, and DOJ weaponization
• [43:36] – Trump-Epstein statue incident

---

Summary for New Listeners

This episode is a must-listen for anyone concerned about American justice, separation of powers, and constitutional freedoms. It offers a clear, deeply reported look at the Trump administration’s efforts to criminalize adversaries and suppress dissent, pairing legal analysis with real-world examples (from law enforcement machinations to media clampdowns), while highlighting the power of public pushback and solidarity in defending American democracy.

Transcript

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[MSNBC Host]

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[Terry Moran]

We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night.

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[Jimmy Kimmel]

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[MSNBC Host]

To break the news today that the Trump administration is officially preparing to indict former FBI Director James Comey. Now, in just a second, as I just mentioned with Chris, I'm gonna talk to Preet Bharar. He's standing by. He's a longtime friend of Comey's and he also, of course, succeeded him as the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York. Now, to state the complete obvious, what we're all thinking, indicting the former director of the FBI in a transparent attempt a political score is an absolutely brazen abuse of political power. It's also one that we kind of knew was coming. It doesn't make it any better, but we kind of knew it was coming because Trump has few political enemies he loathes more than James Comey. I mean, in some ways, his hatred of Comey, and I was thinking about this earlier, has always been a little ironic. I mean, given Comey's decision to reopen the investigation into Hillary Clinton's emails just weeks before the 2016 election. Remember that? A development that pretty clearly had an impact on the outcome of that election, but that couldn't make up for the fact that just days into Trump's first term, Comey made it clear that he would not bow to Trump's demands for absolute loyalty. I mean, Comey repeatedly refused Trump's demand that he absolve Trump of any blame during the earliest days of the Russia investigation. And within months, Trump fired Comey specifically because of that investigation.

[Terry Moran]

Regardless of recommendation, I was going to fire Comey knowing there was no good time to do it. And in fact, when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said, you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made up story.

[MSNBC Host]

The man always says the quiet part out loud, which is sort of a theme of part of what we're going to talk about tonight. Now, the next year, the New York Times reported that Trump actually tried to order his Justice Department to prosecute both James Comey and and Hillary Clinton. But he didn't go through with it after members of his White House staff wrote him a memo. And here's part of what it said. The memo was warning that if he asked law enforcement to investigate his rivals, he could face a range of consequences, including possible impeachment. It almost seems a little quaint today to think about that kind of internal pushback from members of Trump's inner circle, doesn't it? I mean, that's not what we're looking at today. And we have long known that there wouldn't be those kind of checks on Trump's behavior in a second term. It was all part of the warning about a second Trump term. There wouldn't be anyone to control or attempt to control his worst impulses this time around. So James Comey has had every reason to believe this was coming and has likely been preparing for it since day one. I haven't spoken with him back in May about what kind of advice he would give to others who were being targeted. And here's what he said. What really stuck with me, two things.

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I've learned to do with these kind of threats at the same time that seem contradictory. First, see it clearly. Understand that there really is a threat. Second, don't let it overwhelm you. Don't give them that. Don't let it freak you out and dominate your life. Take prudent steps, but don't give. Part of the roar of Trump is to freak out his victims, the people he targets. So don't give them that. But also don't neglect the threat. Protect yourself.

[MSNBC Host]

Look, we don't know for sure what the charges against Comey will be. And MSNBC's Kendallane is breaking a lot of news lately, reports that they will likely center around rather flimsy accusations that Comey lied to the Senate judiciary committee in 20. So just in case that's it, let's just dismantle that for a moment. I mean, during that hearing, Republicans were questioning Comey about whether he authorized his deputy at the time, Andrew McCabe, to leak information to the Wall Street Journal. The alleged leak was about the investigation into Hillary Clinton's private email server in October of 2016. Something it's kind of hard to imagine Republicans were actually mad about. I mean, they were probably celebrating when they saw that story. But that aside, Comey told the senators he did not authorize that leak. And an investigation from the Justice Department's Inspector general, which again, is an investigation run independent of the Justice Department, later confirmed Comey's version of events, saying, quote, we concluded that the overwhelming weight of that evidence supported Comey's version of the conversation. Which is, that's pretty clear for an IG report. So if that is the basis of the indictment, it's not exactly clear what the meat of the argument is based on. But regardless of what the charges against Comey turn out to be, it's also pretty telling that ABC News reports tonight that, quote, a months long investigation into Comey by DOJ prosecutors failed to establish probable cause of a crime. I mean, that means that not only would they be unable to secure a conviction of Comey by proving the claims beyond a reasonable doubt, but that they couldn't reach a significantly lower standard to secure an indictment. So all of this seems pretty questionable to say the least. But here's the thing. If the Trump administration is really going to charge James Comey with lying to Congress, the statute of limitations on that particular crime runs out in just six days on September 30th. And maybe that is why it's kind of clearly why this whole thing seems rushed. It is rushed. So rushed, in fact, that Trump has just abandoned any suggestion that this is about pursuing justice. I mean, first Trump went out after his own hand picked prosecutor, a guy named Derek Seibert, who he had appointed to be the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia at the beginning of his term. Last Thursday, ABC News was first to report that Trump was expected to fire Siebert over his refusal to bring charges against another one of Trump's enemies, Letitia James. Then, by the very next day, so just last Friday, Trump was openly admitting publicly he wanted that uncooperative prosecutor, as he called him, gone.

[Terry Moran]

I said, pull it because he can't be any good. So you want him fired?

[MSNBC Host]

You want him out?

[Terry Moran]

Yeah, I want him out. Yeah, I don't really want him now.

[MSNBC Host]

By the end of that night, Eric Siebert had announced his resignation from the Eastern District of Virginia. And Trump decided to make it crystal clear, even after that, that this was his decision, writing on his social media platform, he didn't quit. I fired him. Why was that necessary? Who knows? Again, there was no subtlety, no ambiguity whatsoever to any of this. Trump made it very clear he was firing this prosecutor because the man would not go along with Trump's plans to just indict his enemies, regardless of the evidence. That's what it was all about. The Trump administration started then floating the idea of replacing Siebert with this woman. Now, her name is Lindsey Halligan. She's an insurance lawyer and former member of Trump's defense team who has tried only three federal cases in her entire career. Now, for context, the guy she replaced had tried over 600 cases before being appointed to that job. 3, 600. Big difference there. She's also a former contestant in Miss Colorado USA. But that's relevant only because she told the Washington Post that she ended up on Trump's legal team after showing up at one of his golf events in a suit, setting her apart from the other female attendees and prompting Trump to hire her just weeks later. That's part of how we got here. She was wearing a suit. We know the man loves people who are dressing up and cosplaying, I guess. Anyway, that's how she became one of the lawyers defending him over his penchant for storing sensitive classified documents in gold plated bathrooms in one of the hotels he owned. She was defending him on that, too. Okay, so Trump fires the career prosecutor who he appointed and then decides to replace that guy with one of his own personal attorneys on what appears to be a very, very obvious attempt to prosecute his enemies. It was all so blatant, but somehow it still wasn't quite blatant enough for Donald Trump, because fast forward a couple days, and on Sunday, Trump posted this absolutely bananas message to Attorney General Pam Bondi on his social media platform. He wrote, quote, pam, I have reviewed over 30 statements and posts saying that essentially, same old story as last time. All talk, no action, nothing is being done. What about Comey, Adam, Shifty, Schiff, Letitia? They're all guilty as hell. Lindsey Halligan is a really good lawyer and likes you a lot. We cancel any longer, it's killing our reputation and credibility. They impeached me twice and indicted me five times, exclamation point, over nothing. Justice must be served. Now, all caps, President djt. I mean, there's a lot to unpack there. But first of all, the President of the United States directing the Attorney General to prosecute his enemies is very, very illegal. And if he regularly communicates with his Attorney General by sliding into her DMs on Truth Social, I guess that's totally his call. But it all reads like a very illegal private message that he accidentally posted publicly. And tonight, we are learning why Trump may have felt the need to make such blatant demands of his attorney general because, according to the Wall Street Journal, even Pam Bondi has expressed reservations about the case. Apparently those reservations didn't stop Bondi from following through on Trump's order to install Lindsey Halligan to be the U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia. And now, just 48 hours later, we get the news that they are going ahead with this indictment. The Washington Post reports that prosecutors could present their case to the grand jury as soon as tomorrow. So the Trump administration is doing everything it can to push this case through as fast as possible and making it crystal clear that they don't care how any of it looks. Clearly, that is not how the American justice system is supposed to work in any way. Trump is turning the Department of Justice into his own personal weapon to settle his own personal scores. And it's not just this one case. Trump has already manipulated the system to install hand picked US Attorneys in New Jersey and New York and California and Nevada. Now he's doing the same thing in one of the most important U.S. attorney's offices in the country, with the explicit goal of prosecuting people like James Comey. Preet Bharara is the former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, arguably the most important U.S. attorney's office in the country. He's also a friend of James Comey and an outspoken critic of Trump's attempts to take over the Justice Department. And he joins me in just 90 seconds.

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[MSNBC Host]

Joining me now, as promised, is Preet Bharara, former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York and host of the Stay Tuned podcast. James Comey, I don't even know, you know. Well, you were a successor of his. He has been one of Trump's targets for years, as I just outlined. There's also this deadline coming up next week. I'm sure a lot was going through your when you saw that news today about this pending indictment. So what are you making of it?

[Preet Bharara]

You know, so I've been hearing about it for a little bit of time. People have been talking about it in legal circles and now I guess in all circles. Look, we haven't seen an indictment. We don't know if it's going to be obtained. It is possible that the grand jury will reject the indictment for a lot of different reasons. So I guess we'll see. But whatever the proposed indictment is, even though we haven't seen it, even though we haven't read it, even though it hasn't been published, we know it must be extremely, extremely weak and without merit. And how do we know that? Because of all the things you said in the introduction. There was a sitting United States Attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia, one of the most important and largest U.S. attorney's offices in the country. That person was handpicked by the President of the United States, had a lot of support, spent 15 years in the office, member of a prominent Republican family, and I presume, ambitious, as are many U.S. attorneys. From personal experience, I know this. And a person who would have, if possible and if appropriate, would have brought charges. You prosecute cases and you prosecute people without fear or favor if the case can be brought. And that person, I think, affixed his signature to a memo along with other career Prosecutors in the office, I don't know how many, but a number of them, and said, we can't bring this case. So in all those circumstances, think about how weak that case had to have been for that U.S. attorney to write that memo. Excuse me, write that memo, sign the memo, and then decide to walk away from a job, although Trump says he fired him and walk away from the best job he may ever have as a public servant. That's how weak that document is. And that'll be confirmed when we see it. But that's not a small thing.

[MSNBC Host]

It certainly isn't. I mean, to your point. And it's, I think, so important for people to understand all the steps in this process. We have seen reports that this could go to the grand jury tomorrow. We've also seen grand juries in D.C. reject charges brought by Trump's political appointee, Jeanine Pirro. It's certainly possible. It's a jury of peers. What does that process look like? What should we be watching for tomorrow, if it happens tomorrow or Friday, whenever it may happen?

[Preet Bharara]

Well, we should see what the document looks like when it passed out of the grand jury. If it is, there's some things we won't learn about until later. So with respect to Jim Comey and with any of the other targets, who the president has in the crosshairs, I hope that the prosecutors remember and appreciate that according to the Justice Manual, that's the Guidebook for Assistant U.S. attorneys and Prosecutors around the country, they are, where appropriate, supposed to bring exculpatory evidence before the grand jury so that even though it's the case that defendants don't testify, generally in the grand jury, defense lawyers are not allowed in the grand jury. There has to be some balance to the presentation. And if that is not done, there could be legal hell to be paid later. You know, another thing that I'm thinking about, given the distaste that the president has for Jim Comey, I think it's not too strong a word to say hatred for Jim Comey is. If he's indicted and it's a white collar crime, it's a false statement case. From what the reporting has told us, he's not a flight risk. He's not a danger to the community. He's a former FBI director. He spent most of his career in law enforcement. Is he going to be allowed to surrender with some dignity and respect like every other defendant that I'm aware of in my seven and a half years as the United States Attorney in New York? Or is Cash Patel, Jim Comey successor at the FBI going to send armed agents to his home at 6 o' clock in the morning. That's not something that a lot of people are thinking about necessarily. That will tell us a lot about the degree to which, you know, Trump indirectly and other folks in the Justice Department directly will be abusing their power. How much hatred is there for this man that they will engage in that kind of force? And the other thing I would look for in the time between now and when we find out an indictment has been successfully achieved and made public is will there be other resignations? Will there be other people fired? Because presumably it's not just the person at the top of the office, Eric Siebert, who thought that there was not a proper case to be made in good conscience, that there are other prosecutors who also signed that memo and did it in good faith. And maybe they'll resign or maybe they'll refuse to go into the grand jury, maybe they'll refuse to proceed with the case, maybe they'll be fired. And then I think the scandal here multiplies over and over and over again. But we'll see how that unfolds.

[MSNBC Host]

Well, let me ask, you've been watching all of these characters. You've seen these cases argued before. What do you think Kash Patel's FBI is thinking about right now? Do you think Comey should be prepared for them to come to his house at 6am.

[Preet Bharara]

You know, I think so. I think so. And that may be true for all sorts of other folks. I think there is a level of animosity and disdain between the president and maybe also Cash Patel and Jim Comey. I mean, look, there's some people, there's some people on the other side of the aisle. There's some Democrats who don't have any love lost for Jim Comey. They think because of the letter he wrote right before the election in 2016, that's how Donald Trump became the president, that he wasn't otherwise going to win the election. So some people on the Democratic side wonder why there's so animosity. Maybe Jim Comey, instead of getting an indictment, should get a thank you note. So we'll have to see. I mean, part of the problem here for the president and for any case that gets brought, you know, assuming that it's as meritless as indicated by the fact of the memo that we've heard about in the reporting is the combination of that memo, the forcing out of the United States Attorney, the appointment of somebody who has been the U.S. attorney for less than a third of a Scaramucci, the social media post that you mentioned earlier, all of that combines to allow Jim Comey and his lawyers to make a pretty powerful argument for malicious prosecution, selective prosecution, vindictive prosecution. And I would imagine that if he gets indicted that his lawyers will go to court immediately. And cases like that usually don't turn out well for the defendant who makes the argument. But I think if there's going to be a meritorious argument for vindictive prosecution, the facts are here in this case and in this instance.

[MSNBC Host]

Preet Bharara, you know more about this than most people. I'm so grateful you could be here with us tonight. There's a lot we don't know, but certainly a lot of this I think people are watching closely. So thank you again.

[Preet Bharara]

Thank you.

[MSNBC Host]

All right. We're going to take a quick break. Coming up, we have new evidence tonight that Trump's war on Jimmy Kimmel has backfired. At least that's my view, at least for now. But what else does the thin skinned president have planned for the media? There's more. And what should the media do about it? Terry Moran was a longtime correspondent at ABC News. He knows a thing or two about covering the Trump White House. And he joins me here at the table next.

[Preet Bharara]

Hello.

[MSNBC Host]

Good to see you.

[Terry Moran]

How are you?

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[MSNBC Host]

Okay, so last night, as I think all of you know, Jimmy Kimmel returned to ABC after the broadcaster's parent company Disney abruptly pulled his late night show last week. Now that suspension of course, followed Donald Trump's FCC chairman and total lackey Brandon Carr publicly warning abc, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. How direct is that? Now, since then, Brendan Carr and some administration allies have desperately tried to spin those comments and as not a threat to use the government's regulatory powers to crack down on the speech administration doesn't like. I mean, okay, I've written a lot of statements that's pretty direct. Now even those staunch right wing voices like Republican Senators Rand Paul and even Ted Cruz could see that is exactly what this was. They've both been outspoken about it. And as for any lingering questions about whether this entire debacle was an outrageous attack on freedom of speech, Trump, like he usually ends up doing, said the quiet part out loud repeatedly. First by suggesting last week that critical coverage of him is really illegal. Not true at all. I've worked for two presidents. And then just hours before Kimmel's show returned by posting I can't believe ABC Fake News gave Jimmy Kimmel his job back. I think we're going to test ABC on this. Let's see how we do. Last time I went after them, they gave me $16 million. This one sounds even more lucrative, not very subtle at all. But here's the thing. The Trump administration's plan in the moment, and I don't want to minimize this cuz there's a lot more coming, but backfired, at least as it relates to Kimmel. I mean, his return drew in more than 6 million viewers, which is much larger than his normal audience despite being blacked out in 23% of the country. And that does not even count the more than 26 million views across YouTube and social platforms, which is a very large number of people. And Jimmy Kimmel used that huge platform, courtesy of Donald Trump, to mount an impassioned defense of free speech.

[Jimmy Kimmel]

This show is not important. What is important is that we get to live in a country that allows us to have a show like this. I've had the opportunity to meet and spend time with Congress comedians and talk show hosts from countries like Russia, countries in the Middle east who told me they would get thrown in prison for making fun of those in power. And worse than being thrown in prison, they know how lucky we are here. Our freedom to speak is what they admire most about this country. And that's something I'm embarrassed to say I took for granted until they pulled my friend Stephen off the air and tried to coerce the affiliates who run our show in the cities that you live in to take my show. That's not legal, that's not American. That is un American. And it is so dangerous. A government threat to silence a comedian the president doesn't like is anti American. That's anti American.

[Public Health PSA Narrator]

And I am so glad we have.

[Jimmy Kimmel]

Some solidarity on that.

[MSNBC Host]

Terry Moran is a former ABC News Special senior national correspondent and anchor. He's now an independent journalist with his own subsequent called Real Patriotism. Check it out. And he joins me now. Terry, it's great to see you. What a moment we're living in. I can say I just laid out a little bit of why, how I think it backfired as it relates to Jimmy Kimmel. He's back on the air. He had a lot of viewers. He gave an impassioned speech on free speech. There's a lot more coming. But what do you make of this moment?

[Terry Moran]

Well, first, as to Jimmy, I thought that was so authentic. Everything he said there was clearly from his heart. And he thought about it, and he thought about it from his heart and tried to reach out to people who might have been hurt by what he said or what they read that he said. And he spoke about what he believed as well. And authenticity is really the coin of the realm these days as a broadcaster. And I think it worked for him. Now, as for backfiring, I think we've learned two things. First, this administration will try to silence its critics with this power of the state, with the power of the government, our power, using our power to silence comedians, reporters, whomever they don't like. The second thing that we learned is that the American people won't have that. There's a great, great attachment to the First Amendment in this country, and not even the charisma of Donald Trump can overcome it with many of his own supporters. People love their freedom of speech.

[MSNBC Host]

They do. What's interesting, I think, is that it kind of broke through in a way with the public, in a way that surprised me a Little bit. I don't know if it surprised you, cuz there's been a number of attacks on free speech, speech and moments of corruption. But do you think that this outcome over six days came about because of the boycotts and the activism and people out there? Do you think it came about because there was sort of a different coalition of people like Ted Cruz and Rand Paul and a lot of people out there in the streets? Why do you think it happened?

[Terry Moran]

Yeah, all of the above. Right. But I think the first thing you mentioned, which is that solidarity works. Standing up for each other, standing up for each other's rights and freedoms when they come under assault, which, let's be frank, this administration is doing in several areas. You just had that segment on James Comey being prosecuted after a five month investigation. The prosecutor wouldn't do it. The President wants to use the power of the state to prosecute this person because he has a personal animus against him or our freedom of speech. If you stand up for it, for the immigrants who are being brutalized in many, many ways, you can come together and stop it. Not stop it, but at least check it. In this instance, because of the attachment of the First Amendment and the fact that so many people on the other side are libertarians, you know, essentially Disney was emboldened and strengthened in the confidence of the people in doing that. So solidarity works, do you think?

[MSNBC Host]

I mean, he worked at ABC for a long time. Do you think that's why Disney did it? Why they put him back on air knowing probably some version of what he was going to say last night?

[Terry Moran]

I have no inside information. I was always the last person in the building to know any.

[MSNBC Host]

But you have a pretty good sense on how they think about this.

[Terry Moran]

I do know one little bit. I can tell you. Bob Iger, the head of Disney, and Jimmy Kimmel are good friends and I think they were sincerely trying to work it out. And second, you know, when you look at the offense, the crime that Jimmy Kimmel committed there, it was perhaps inelegant, perhaps unaware of the people's feelings, but it wasn't, it wasn't outrageous. And finally it was something that they had to respond to. They were losing subscriptions, not any great money, but it was such a blow to a media company. Hollywood was up in arms. They need that community. Their viewers were up in arms. Many, many people helped Disney get to the point. I think it wanted to. And now they're in this showdown with Sinclair and nexstar, the two big, you know, very friendly to Trump corporations which Control so many of the affiliates. Disney has some cards in that, though. National ad revenues that they might not want to share. There are other contractual obligations. That's the fight to watch now. But Disney's now on the side of free speech again.

[MSNBC Host]

Let me ask you. There's been this sort of nuclear option mentioned. It's a little bit of a dramatic way of describing it, but you know, well, what all the assets are that Disney has. The conglomerates, of course, own a lot of these locals affiliates. 23% of them decided not to show Jimmy Kimmel. Do you think there's a scenario where Disney could say, hey, there's other content you want, like sports? If you don't show Jimmy Kimmel, we're not going to share the sports? Or is that just unrealistic?

[Terry Moran]

Yeah. You're a lawyer or you.

[MSNBC Host]

I'm not.

[Terry Moran]

Think like one.

[MSNBC Host]

Well, I'm not, but this is one of those things floating around that I'm like, would they really think about it that way?

[Terry Moran]

Well, first, a lot of the sports is carried on espn, which is cable, so it doesn't get at the affiliates quite as much. But there's. The details of the contract would deal with that. But, yes, the short answer is they've got leverage. They're the Walt Disney Company and they have a lot of leverage. They've got a lot of programming and a lot of money that comes through advertising and other aspects of that enormous business that those local affiliates are going to want. And also, I think the local affiliates might hear from people, even in Red State, whatever America, that really, let's not. Not censor people. Let's not take people off the air because you don't like the joke they tell.

[MSNBC Host]

I think a lot of people just. I can judge in my social media and questions, people are like, do I have a Sinclair? Am I a Sinclair broadcast? Why isn't it showing? People are raving questions. Okay, we've got to take a very quick break. You know how this goes. You did for a long time. You're gonna stay with me. Thanks for staying with me. We'll be right back. We are back with former ABC News correspondent and anchor Terry Moran. Okay, Terry, now a big question. Here is what happens now? So we saw even before Jimmy Kimmel had his show last night, Trump had a very long true social post, which I'm not going to reread again. We referenced earlier. No, don't worry. But in it, he threatened sort of legal action. Again. He'd already. He said, I already paid. They already paid me $16 million. And he kind of threatened legal action, do you think? And again, you don't have insider information, but you know how companies think, especially when you used to work at. Do you think that they're more emboldened to fight back harder now? Or what do you think's gonna happen?

[Terry Moran]

I'd say no. And for this reason they have business. Disney has business interests of all different kinds all over the world that they need Trump administration support on at the very least. And that ranges around the world to things in this country. And does it mean that they want to take them on willy nilly, especially for something as small as Jimmy mentioned last night as the Jimmy Kimmel show, right, or frankly ABC News, right, where I worked and left on an accelerated timetable because of something I said that displeased the White House. And so for that I don't think they want to risk all the other interests of the company. That said, Bob Iger obviously has a commitment to freedom of speech. That's how they make their bread and butter. They don't want to alienate artists and people who have to do that. But at the end of the day, it's the dollar that rules. As we have seen again and again and again in so many other stories, this one has a happy ending, in part because people did rise up, part because the case against Jimmy Kimmel was so weak. I'm not sure that's going to happen again and again and again.

[MSNBC Host]

Trump has been a little quiet around this. He didn't post after Kimball's monologue last night or today. I don't know if we should read into that or not. He may still maybe cuz we're talking about it right now, who knows? But do you think that's telling at all or no?

[Terry Moran]

He's got a great instinct for where the politics of an issue are. His primary interest is where those politics are for his base because that's what's brought him all this power. And he can intimidate others. But he also has a broader sense of the country. His years as a reality TV star, just his native instinctual public intelligence is remarkable. And I think he gets it. He gets that he doesn't want to be seen as the censor of America and he's careful about that. He does want to be seen as the smasher of the liberals, right, the smasher of the left. And that's a line he's going to have to work walk. Brendan Carr, intoxicated with his own power, I think did something stupid in a way that Trump never would have he got caught using the power of the government to directly threaten free speech? Now, Trump does that. And is truth social and stuff like that? When your FCC chair, who's nowhere near as interesting or charismatic as Trump, does it, it's a bigger problem. So I think Trump is probably thinking this through in the way that he does.

[MSNBC Host]

I'm super. I'm really interested. I mean, Comer said he'd invite Carr to come before the overst committee if they don't subpoena him. I don't know if he's going, but there's an interesting coalition on the Hill that I think is interesting to watch. I mean, you referenced this earlier. There are these two big media conglomerates. One is conservative, One is there's a pending merger that they would like to see happen. A 6.2 billion one. Where does this sort of end? I mean, they need approval from the fcc. They need the FCC to change rules. Where does this end?

[Terry Moran]

Well, there's a bad version and a good version. The bad version is it ends like Hungary and Poland and Russia, where there's essentially crony capitalism. Capitalism where the strong man, the autocrat, if you will, essentially picks and chooses his friends to take over media properties so as to control the national information flow and dialogue. That's the way it goes in a lot of other countries already. You have the Ellison family, right, owning Paramount and cbs, gunning for cnn, having part of TikTok. That's an enormous amount of power for someone very close to Trump, and you could see him supporting Sinclair in those ways as well. The other way is the way it's going, which is you can't control the media environment. It's shattering. I mean, I'm part of this new media. I feel like I walked out of. I feel like Dorothy in the wizard of Oz that I walked from black and white into color. It's a different world, much harder to get control of. Even with Elon Musk's control of X and possible control of other social media, you can't stop it. And the bottom line is Americans love their free speech and will be very, very suspicious of people who want to restrict it.

[MSNBC Host]

There's no question about that. We've seen that in droves over the last week. Terry Moreno, real pleasure. Thank you so much for being here.

[Terry Moran]

Thanks for having me.

[MSNBC Host]

Okay, we got to take a break. After that, I'm going to tell you about the alarming developments that followed a meeting between conspiracy theorist Alex Jones and a top Trump DOJ official. This story is a horrifying one. It's as crazy as it sounds. We'll be right back. You may remember Ed Martin as the Trump appointee who fired dozens of career DOJ prosecutors who worked on January 6th cases. Or for how he dropped criminal assault charges against the former leader of the Prowl Boys and demoted the prosecutors who had been working on the case. Or maybe you remember him donning a Columbo style trench coat and doing a photo shoot outside of New York Attorney General Letitia James home in Brooklyn while trying to prosecute her for what now appears to be trumped up charges. Ed Martin, though, has now outdone himself. Believe it or not, that guy has done worse. He has managed to stoop even lower than all of those things I just mentioned. Let me back up, though, for a moment because this involves an even more unsavory character, far right personality, Alex Jones. Yes, that guy. For decades now, Jones and his show Infowars have been spewing conspiracy theories, gross damaging ones. He has claimed that the moon landing was fake. He's claimed that 911 was an inside job. But more than anything, Jones became synonymous with one conspiracy. This one.

[Public Health PSA Narrator]

Sandy Hook. It's got inside job written all over it. Sandy Hook is a synthetic, completely fake, with actors, in my view, manufactured. All I know is the official story of Sandy Hook has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

[MSNBC Host]

The official story Jones is referring to there is the story of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting In December of 2012, the shooting that left 26 people dead, 20 of them children between the ages of 6 and 7 years old. It was one of the most horrific acts of mass violence our nation has ever seen. I'm sure we all remember where we were that day. But for years, Jones spread conspiracies about it, claiming that the school had been empty at the time or that reporters on the scene were actually in studios using green screens, even spewing the outrageous nonsense that the children and parents and law enforcement agents at the scene were actors. They were, of course, not actors. They were real people. Real people whose kids were killed in a tragedy. And Jones conspiracies made things much worse. I mean, for years, the family members of victims were harassed and threatened by people who believed the conspiracies Jones was pushing about them. Anonymous phone calls, harassment on the street, death threats, you name it, all of that. Among the people who were harassed and threatened was this man, former FBI Special Agent William Aldenberg. He was training near the school when the shooting happened and was one of the first people on the scene.

[Preet Bharara]

Was.

[MSNBC Host]

What you saw in that school. Fake?

[Terry Moran]

No, no, no, sir.

[Preet Bharara]

Was it synthetic?

[Public Health PSA Narrator]

No, sir.

[MSNBC Host]

No, sir.

[Preet Bharara]

See any actors that day, Bill?

[MSNBC Host]

No. No. Those children real? It's awful. It's awful.

[Public Health PSA Narrator]

It's awful.

[Preet Bharara]

Were you aware that at that very moment, Alex Jones was telling his audience of millions that what you had just seen was staged? Objection. Judge Leading? No.

[MSNBC Host]

Aldenberg says he Googles himself about once a week, checking to see if there are any new threats to himself or his family. That guy who you just saw on the stand, threats to his family. Because conspiracy theorists latched onto how Aldenberg looked vaguely similar to one of the victim's parents at Sandy Hook and decided that must mean they are both the same person, an actor hired to play both roles as part of a deep state conspiracy on his show. Jones even fanned those flames. So back in 2018, Aldenberg sued Jones along with a group of Sandy Hook victims families. Actually, a lot of Sandy Hook family victims families of them started suing. Some suing in Texas, where Jones company Infowars is based. Some suing in Connecticut, where they lived and where the shooting took place. And after all their lawsuits combined, Jones ended up on the hook for damages of around $1.4 billion. Now, this is where Trump's Director of weaponization at the Justice Department, Ed Martin, comes back into play. Because about two weeks ago, Alex Jones posted these photos with Ed Martin. Three days later, on September 15, Martin sent this letter to former FBI Special Agent William Oldenburg. It requested information about Oldenburg's involvement in litigation against Alex Jones, implying that Oldenburg was being criminally investigated for his involvement. The letter specifically requested that Oldenburg and his lawyer keep the letter confidential. They appeared to have complied with that request. But yesterday, Alex Jones himself published it, quote, breaking. The DOJ's task force on Government Weaponization against the American People has launched an investigation into the Democratic Party FBI directing illegal lawfare against Alex Jones and Infowars. That's what the headline there says in his tweet. And now today, after Jones has made all that public and people across the country expressed their absolute outrage, Ed Martin retracted his letter to Altenberg saying, actually, there's no investigation against him. Now, that retraction is good. It shows that public pushback can work. But the genie is already out of the bottle here. Today, Jones went on a show and used Ed Martin's letter as evidence that all of the lawsuits against him are the real conspiracy.

[Public Health PSA Narrator]

And so the DOJ sends him a letter saying, we want to meet with you. You know, preserve your materials, because William Aldenberg is the head FBI agent or counsel in Connecticut. Lawyer. He admits he went and organized the lawsuits against me. We have the DOJ documents. They funded it. We have the undercover videos of the FBI and CIA admitting they went and set this up with the FBI in Connecticut under orders from the Democrats.

[MSNBC Host]

That is where we are right now. A top DOJ official handpicked by the President of the United States is weaponizing the Justice Department to help Alex Jones, of all people, attack a Sandy Hook shooting. First responder. And at least according to Jones, Ed Martin is just getting started.

[Public Health PSA Narrator]

Well, if they like this opening investigation, they're really going to like the other stuff. And I don't because I'm not in control of this. And I'm not, you know, I, I don't know what, what Ed Martin's gonna do. They told me some of the next stuff coming that they're working on, but we never thought this particular thing was the biggest thing, though. It's cut and dry in the law, what they did, the other stuff is unbelievable.

[MSNBC Host]

I mean, actually, Alex Jones, this whole thing is unbelievable, just not in the way you think. Coming up, a celebration of a famous friendship runs afoul of the Trump administration. Maybe because the friends are Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. That's next. So yesterday, a massive statue, you can see it behind me, was installed in front of the U.S. capitol to commemorate Donald Trump's special friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. The artwork was entitled Best Friends Forever. Now, I say was because less than 24 hours after the statue was first put up, it disappeared quite literally overnight. The group behind the artwork says they had a permit for it to remain at the location until this Sunday. But at 5:30 this morning, US Park Police suddenly toppled and removed the statue. Now, the National Park Service says the artwork was removed for not being in compliance with the permit, but the permit holders dispute that claim. Regardless. It's quite the metaphor, isn't it, for what Trump has been attempting to do with the issue of his relationship with Epstein all along? Just make the whole thing disappear. Middle of the night, I guess, and preferably overnight, obviously, that does it for me. Today you can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok.

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