'Unhinged and unwell': Apparent degradation of Trump's mental state raises alarms

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode: "Unhinged and Unwell": Apparent Degradation of Trump's Mental State Raises Alarms

Date: October 3, 2025
Host: Jen Psaki (MSNBC)
Primary Contributor: Lawrence O’Donnell
Notable Guests: Congresswoman Madeleine Dean, Shalonda Young (Former OMB Director), Senator Amy Klobuchar, Congressman Robert Garcia

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Overview of the Episode

This episode tackles the increasingly alarming concerns regarding former President Donald Trump's mental fitness, and how this instability is intersecting with a high-stakes government shutdown orchestrated by Trump loyalists. Through interviews and analysis, Jen Psaki (with significant hosting from Lawrence O’Donnell) explores the legal and ethical ramifications of the shutdown, the questionable actions of OMB Director Russ Vought, the profound implications for health care and federal workers, and the broader damage to U.S. governance and reputation at home and abroad. The episode dives deep into the politics of the shutdown, the President’s erratic behavior, and bombshell revelations relating to the Epstein scandal.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Engineered Government Shutdown (00:54–09:02)

• Russ Vought’s Role:
  Vought, Trump’s OMB Director and architect of "Project 2025", is taking unprecedented and likely illegal steps:

  • Ordering federal agencies to lay off workers during the shutdown (rather than furlough).
  • Canceling $8 billion in federal funding for climate projects disproportionately affecting blue states.
  • Using the shutdown as a pretext for radical restructuring and cuts, especially targeting the ACA (Affordable Care Act).

  “Russ Vote has become the face of this shutdown, and so far he seems pretty intent on making it as painful as possible.” — Lawrence O’Donnell [01:15]

• Legal and Political Pushback:

  • Legal experts assert mass layoffs during a shutdown are “almost certainly illegal.”

  • Senate and House Republicans try to lay responsibility at Vought’s feet while quietly supporting the actions.

    “Republicans are hiding behind Russ Vote while he tries to use the shutdown as cover to get rid of huge swaths of federal employees and cut funding for federal programs Republicans don't like.” — Lawrence O’Donnell [02:10]

  • Poll: 71% of Americans want ACA subsidies extended; public blames Trump and the GOP for the shutdown by a 17-point margin.

2. Alarming Questions on Trump’s Mental State (05:20–10:30)

• Disturbing Incidents:

  • Trump reposts an AI-generated video about a fake “med bed” government program—originating from QAnon conspiracy theory—on his Truth Social account.

    “But here’s the thing. Medbeds don’t exist… the whole thing is completely cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.” — Lawrence O’Donnell [06:21]

  • Press Secretary Caroline Levitt’s non-answer emphasizes Trump’s penchant for ‘transparency’ and posting memes.

  • Trump brags about ending a non-existent war between Azerbaijan and Albania, repeating the claim in multiple venues, leading to public mockery by international leaders.

    “About a week later, at a press conference with the Prime Minister of the UK, Trump made the same bizarre claim.” — Lawrence O’Donnell [07:15]

• Domestic Alarm Bells:

  • Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker calls for invocation of the 25th Amendment.

  • Congresswoman Madeleine Dean publicly confronts House Speaker Mike Johnson, calling Trump “unhinged and unwell”.

    “The president is unhinged. He is unwell. What are you doing?” — Rep. Madeleine Dean [08:42]

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3. Interview: Rep. Madeleine Dean on Confronting GOP Leadership (09:29–17:42)

• The Confrontation:

  • Dean recounts confronting Speaker Johnson on day one of the shutdown, imploring him to lead and acknowledge Trump's disturbing behavior.

  • Describes Trump’s erratic conduct as not just shameful but dangerous—citing recent incoherent UN appearances and NATO meetings.

    “It is so worrisome, it is so dangerous. So I just wanted him [Johnson] to say… the President is both unhinged and unwell.” — Rep. Madeleine Dean [10:20]

  • Dean emphasizes international damage: U.S. credibility is deeply undermined.

    “America is the indispensable nation. Can we count on you? It looks like the President is trying to take us off the world stage in terms of our credibility…” — Rep. Dean [11:40]

• On Health Care:

  • Explains the GOP shutdown’s real motive: gutting ACA health subsidies, risking health outcomes for over 20 million Americans.

  • Dean describes rising premiums—$8,000 jumps for families of 4—and the targeting of social benefits (e.g., SNAP).

    “There is a relishment, sadly among some Republicans. They want people not to have food supplements.” — Rep. Dean [15:56]

  • Bemoans cynical, misleading messaging by GOP, demanding honesty about the impacts.

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4. Interview: Shalonda Young on the Legality and Precedents (20:50–25:20)

• Expertise on OMB Authority:

  • Young (OMB Director under Biden) states there’s no legal basis for using a shutdown to conduct mass layoffs or unilaterally cancel programs approved by Congress.

  • Warns of a dangerous power grab: This is about long-desired executive overreach and the consolidation of presidential power.

    “You don’t get extra authority to fire people when you run out of money.” — Shalonda Young [22:17]

    “This is a huge moment. Is Congress going to do what the Constitution was set up for them to do? Are they going to be a check on a president who is trying to act like a king?” — Shalonda Young [22:49]

• Critique of Congressional Complicity:

  • Chides current congressional leaders—especially within the GOP—for abandoning their constitutional checks and acting as subordinates to the President.

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5. Economic Fallout for Farmers & Policy Contradictions (27:12–35:16)

• Trade War, Bailouts, and Rural Pain:

  • Trump’s trade war with China led to China ceasing U.S. soybean purchases, devastating the Midwest.

  • $20B in U.S. funds used to bail out Argentina, who then undercut American farmers by selling soybeans to China, undermining U.S. leverage.

    “You’ve shut the government down, you’re implementing the biggest cuts to Medicaid in history, rural hospitals are shutting, and now you are screwing over America's soybean farmers by bailing out Argentina.” — Lawrence O’Donnell [29:00]

  • Senator Klobuchar underscores that ACA subsidies are vital in rural states and that these policy decisions are not only bad policy, but political folly.

    “He said, it's a perfect storm of ugly… over a quarter of our farmers are on the affordable Care act… You don’t want to saddle rural America with… these incredible health care cuts…” — Sen. Amy Klobuchar [30:18]

• Targeting Blue States, Undermining Energy Transition:

  • $8 billion in renewable energy funding canceled—purportedly illegal and hitting both blue and red states.

  • Undermines economies, aggravates cost-of-living issues.

    “It's corrupt that he is targeting certain states. That's not how the budgeting works.” — Sen. Klobuchar [33:20]

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6. The Epstein Scandal: New Revelations (37:12–43:35)

• Reinstallation of Trump-Epstein Statue:

  • The saga of the 10-foot statue referencing Trump’s past with Epstein symbolizes the recurring nature of the scandal.

• Howard Lutnick Interview Fallout:

  • Trump’s Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick asserts on a podcast that Epstein was “the greatest blackmailer ever,” likely having compromising tapes, and suggests these were traded for legal leniency—a narrative counter to official administration assertions.

    “That's Trump's own cabinet member making some pretty head turning assertions there. Epstein was the greatest blackmailer ever. He believes there are tapes…” — Lawrence O’Donnell [37:29]

• Congressional Oversight:

  • Rep. Robert Garcia is calling for Lutnick to testify, emphasizing bipartisan interest in getting to the full story, especially concerning possible blackmail and compromised officials.

    “He [Lutnick] should absolutely appear in front of Oversight, and we've sent a letter today to hopefully make that happen.” — Rep. Garcia [40:16]

  • Garcia also calls attention to misuse of federal resources for partisan messaging during the shutdown, possibly violating the Hatch Act and other statutes.

    “Donald Trump is using every opportunity he has to intimidate, to scare people, certainly to have no respect for federal workers and their workspace.” — Rep. Garcia [42:22]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |---|---|---| | 01:15 | “Russ Vote has become the face of this shutdown, and so far he seems pretty intent on making it as painful as possible.” | Lawrence O’Donnell | | 02:10 | “Republicans are hiding behind Russ Vote while he tries to use the shutdown as cover…” | Lawrence O’Donnell | | 06:21 | “Medbeds don’t exist… the whole thing is completely cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.” | Lawrence O’Donnell | | 08:42 | “The president is unhinged. He is unwell. What are you doing?” | Rep. Madeleine Dean | | 11:40 | “America is the indispensable nation. Can we count on you?...” | Rep. Madeleine Dean | | 15:56 | “There is a relishment, sadly among some Republicans. They want people not to have food supplements.” | Rep. Dean | | 22:17 | “You don’t get extra authority to fire people when you run out of money.” | Shalonda Young | | 22:49 | “Are they going to be a check on a president who is trying to act like a king?” | Shalonda Young | | 29:00 | “...now you are screwing over America's soybean farmers by bailing out Argentina.” | Lawrence O’Donnell | | 30:18 | “It's a perfect storm of ugly… over a quarter of our farmers are on ACA…” | Sen. Amy Klobuchar | | 33:20 | "It's corrupt that he is targeting certain states. That's not how the budgeting works." | Sen. Klobuchar | | 37:29 | “...Epstein was the greatest blackmailer ever. He believes there are tapes...” | Lawrence O’Donnell | | 40:16 | “He [Lutnick] should absolutely appear in front of Oversight, and we've sent a letter today to hopefully make that happen.” | Rep. Garcia | | 42:22 | “Donald Trump is using every opportunity he has to intimidate, to scare people, certainly to have no respect for federal workers and their workspace.” | Rep. Garcia |

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Shutdown & Russ Vought’s Role – 00:54–09:02
• Trump’s Questionable Conduct – 05:20–10:30
• Interview: Rep. Madeleine Dean – 09:29–17:42
• Interview: Shalonda Young – 20:50–25:20
• Senator Klobuchar: Rural Impact & Energy Grants – 30:09–35:16
• Statue & Epstein Scandal – 37:12–39:31
• Interview: Rep. Robert Garcia – 39:31–43:35

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Tone and Language

The episode maintains a sharp, occasionally incredulous tone; the hosts are deeply critical of Trump’s actions and the complicity/silence of GOP leaders. The language is conversational but often charged—reflecting high concern, urgency, frustration, and, at times, dark humor.

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Conclusion

This episode paints a detailed, disturbing portrait of both the practical and psychological degradation in American governance amid Trump's second term. The government shutdown, weaponized for ideological aims, is being carried out with disregard for legality and precedent, while Trump's own erratic behavior alarms both domestic officials and international leaders. The episode’s guests—lawmakers and experts—warn of immediate harm to millions and long-term risks to U.S. democracy and world standing. The unfolding Epstein revelations add yet another layer of scandal to the picture, underscoring a pattern of powerful men evading scrutiny as institutions falter.

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Transcript

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

About who is in charge of making the decisions during the government shutdown, they are awfully definitive.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

Most of the responsibility falls to Russ Vogt. He's the director of the Office of Management and Budget.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I'd be thinking long and hard about shutting down the government and handing the keys to the OMB and to Russ Vote. That's right, Trump's director of the OMB, a key architect of Project 2025. Russell Vote has become the face of this shutdown, and so far he seems pretty intent on making it as painful as possible. I mean, yesterday Vote reportedly told House Republicans he was going to start directing agencies to lay off federal workers under the guise of the government shutdown. And I say under the guise of the government shutdown because that is not how shutdowns work. I mean, it's already painful enough that hundreds of thousands of federal workers are temporarily furloughed, which often typically happens during shutdowns, and others are forced to work without pay until the government reopens. But no one has to be laid off. That part is a choice. In fact, federal employment lawyers said mass layoffs during a shutdown would, quote, almost certainly be illegal. But of course, Russ voters are reportedly trying to do them anyway. And at the same time, he's also using the shutdown as a pretext to cut funding for blue states. I mean, he's announced that he's canceling nearly $8 billion worth of federal funding for climate focused projects in these 16 states. You can see them all on your screen. Almost all of them, not all, but almost all of them are bright blue states. And as Senate Democrats immediately pointed out, unilaterally cutting spending already appropriated by Congress would be illegal. We know this because They've been trying to do this and been doing it since Trump got into office. But that appears to be the plan here. Republicans are hiding behind Russ Vote while he tries to use the shutdown as cover to get rid of huge swaths of federal employees and cut funding for federal programs Republicans don't like. He's using the shutdown to justify basically doing whatever he wants. But if you listen to Speaker Mike Johnson, he would have you believe that Vote is having a real tough time doing all of this.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

Russ does this reluctantly. He takes no pleasure in this because Russ has to sit down and decide, because he's in charge of that office, which policies, personnel and which programs are essential in which are not. That is not a fun task. And he is not enjoying that responsibility.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now, I for one, think Russ Vote probably is enjoying this moment. I mean, he wrote a whole lot about how much he wanted to do stuff exactly just like this in Project 2025. Don't just take my word for it or even Voat's word for it. Here's how Republican Senator Mike Lee put it last night on fox.

[Commercial Narrator (Odoo)]

Ross Vogt, the OMB director, has been.

[Congresswoman Madeleine Dean]

Dreaming about this moment, preparing this moment since puberty.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That's quite a visual. Thanks for that, Mike Lee. I'm going to try to unwind that from my brain. And as for Senate Majority Leader John Thune, well, according to him, he just can't do anything to stop Vote telling Politico we can't control him. Who knew the Senate Majority leader was so powerless? He's not, by the way. Now, there's a reason why Republicans are so eager to pin all of this on Rust Vote. They clearly like cuts like these. I mean, the central issue here is that Republicans want to cut the Affordable Care act subsidies that allow millions of people in this country to afford health care. And, and new polling from the Washington Post shows that a whopping 71% of Americans believe that those ACA subsidies should be extended. And given that number, it's probably no coincidence that the same poll shows that Americans blame Trump and Republicans for the shutdown by a 17 point margin. I mean, Republicans are in control of the House, the Senate and the White House. If they wanted this shutdown to end, they could do it. And if John Thune or Mike Johnson or President Trump did not like what Russ Vote was doing, they could call him. They could easily tell him to stop. Trump is quite literally his boss. He is ultimately the one behind all of this. Trump is also the boss of all the Republicans in Congress who eagerly do whatever he wants these days. And that's really concerning because the boss is kind of out to lunch right now. I mean, according to Senator Chuck Schumer, he didn't even appear to know that the shutdown fight was over health care. It's not to mention that Trump seemed to forget exactly who Hakeem Jeffries was on Tuesday, even after meeting with him in the Oval Office a day earlier. But more alarming, perhaps, is that this weekend, President Trump posted this to his Truth Social page. It's an AI generated video that depicts a Fox News segment that never really aired, a segment that never existed. It featured an AI generated version of Trump's own voice announcing a new government program for something called a med bed, which will replace our current health care system altogether. But here's the thing. Medbeds don't exist. They are actually a QAnon conspiracy theory. The idea is that the government secretly has access to futuristic miracle beds that can cure all ailments and even do things like regrow limbs. Conspiracy theorists believe that JFK is actually still secretly alive, but you wouldn't recognize him because med beds not only healed him, but made him look remarkably youthful. Just to give you a sense on this conspiracy theory, the whole thing is completely cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. Completely. And not only should the President have realized that because of, well, everything about it, obviously, but the President also should have realized that was not actually his voice in the video. He did not actually do an Oval Office address about med beds. But still, Trump posted that to his Truth Social page and then deleted it. Now, yesterday at the White House press briefing, Trump's press secretary, Caroline Levitt, was asked the incredibly valid question of why Trump posted that video to begin with. And this is how she responded.

[Congresswoman Madeleine Dean]

I think the President saw the video and posted it and then took it down. And he has the right to do that. It's his social media. He's incredibly transparent, as you all know. You hear from him directly on social media. He likes to share memes, he likes to share videos, he likes to repost things that he sees other people post on social media as well. And I think it's quite refreshing that we have a president who is so open and honest.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Doesn't quite answer the question on why her boss posted an AI generated video that clearly wasn't his voice.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

Right.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I mean, last month on Fox News, Trump also proudly bragged that he ended a war between the nations of Azerbaijan and Albania, despite the fact that the two countries were never actually at war. About a week later, at a press conference with the Prime Minister of the UK Trump made the same bizarre claim. Just to give you a sense of how weird that claim is, this is how far apart those countries are. You can see it on your screen right now. Albania and Azerbaijan are not and have never been at war, but they are now laughing at us. Here's the prime Minister of Albania making fun of Trump with French President Macron and the President of Azerbaijan at an international summit today. You should make an apology to us.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

Because you didn't congratulate us for the.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Peace deal that President Trump made between Albania and I am sorry for that. And you worked very hard. All around the world, Trump is the butt of the joke. And it's a little less funny to many people living here. I mean, after President Trump called for cities like Chicago to be used as training grounds for the military, on Tuesday, Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker said that he believes the time has come to invoke the 25th Amendment to get him removed from office. And earlier this week, Democratic Congressman Madeleine Dean confronted Mike Johnson, saying the president is unhinged and unwell. Watch this video closely and you'll just notice how Johnson doesn't necessarily deny either statement. This is what I was talking about with Chris.

[Congresswoman Madeleine Dean]

The president is unhinged. He is unwell. What are you doing?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Your side are, too. I don't control.

[Congresswoman Madeleine Dean]

Oh, my God, please. That performance in front of the generals that I didn't see so dangerous. You know, I serve on foreign affairs and appropriations. It's a collision of those two things. Our allies are looking elsewhere. Our enemies are laughing.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I just left.

[Congresswoman Madeleine Dean]

You have a president who is. You have a president who is unwell.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

They sure are starting us off. Tonight's Democratic Congresswoman Madeleine Dean of Pennsylvania. Congresswoman, it's great to see you. I just have to start with that moment between you and Mike Johnson, because it was just one exchange. But it really did seem emblematic of the moment we find ourselves in tonight. Why did you decide to confront him that way?

[Congresswoman Madeleine Dean]

Well, you know, it was the very first day of the shutdown, and he is at the center of it. And so I saw the opportunity to speak to him. And he and I have conversations over the years we served on Judiciary Committee together. And so I had the moment to talk to him, and I really begged him to lead. I said, we desperately need you to lead. It is his opportunity and his responsibility. But the performance before the generals, the. The calling in of 800 generals and the insulting, vain performance by Secretary Hegseth, and then the president's performance after it, that was just utterly incoherent. It's alarming to me. You know the clip you just showed of Macron and other world leaders, they're laughing. I'm not laughing. It's so worrisome, it is so dangerous. So I just wanted him to say that. You must recognize, Mr. Speaker, that the President is both unhinged and unwell.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

In response, he didn't, at least in the video that we saw, you were in the conversation, didn't seem to say, no, he isn't. He kind of spit it back and said, you have unwell people on your side. What does that tell you?

[Congresswoman Madeleine Dean]

Using the word too. Yeah, same on your side too. I think it's pretty obvious he recognizes there's a problem, that the behavior of the President, we saw it, of course, in Trump 1, but it is markedly different this time around. It is more deteriorated, it is more incoherent. It's always self serving. We have seen that in Mr. Trump for a very, very long time, I guess his whole life. But this is something I think very dangerous. And it was just a few days before he was on a different stage, on the UN stage, saying unbelievably incoherent and incorrect things, obviously complaining about an escalator and a teleprompter, paranoid about those things. The savior and solver of seven wars. I don't know if you're aware of that, but just absolutely incoherent things. These are two very important stages, one staged for his purposes, his vain purposes, and the other the world stage. I am so desperately worried about our standing in the world as somebody on the Foreign Affairs Committee, literally national leaders speak to us when we have traveled on bipartisan CODELs to Europe, to the Indo Pacific to say America is the indispensable nation. Can we count on you? It looks like the President is trying to take us off the world stage in terms of our credibility as the indispensable nation. I want the speaker to go to the President and say it's recognizable what you are doing and your deterioration. Others need to go around him and be honest with the President.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's such an important point about how the world leaders and people in foreign capitals view the United States based on the President of the United States. It is, as you know well. And I'll just add to this, when there are meetings with the President of the United States, these leaders get memos and briefings on who they're going to be meeting with, what his vulnerabilities are. This is including with Adversaries, right? How they can push him. And when they see someone on the world stage that is weak, that is incoherent at times, that is confusing, that isn't using facts, that weakens the U.S. standing. Let me ask youi just wanna echo that point. It's such an important one. Let me ask you, because as you noted, we're on day two of the government shutdown right now. People across country are being impacted. As I've stated a thousand times already in the last two days, this is about health care subsidies for the American people. That's what Democrats are standing up to extend Mike Johnson, I don't wanna take any blame off of him here at all. That's not what I'm trying to do. But he takes his direction from President Trump and right now it seems unclear. But I wanna get your thoughts on kind of how we get an end to this. When the person who's leading the White House, you described him as unwell, how do we get to the other side? Does he know how to get to the other side? Does he understand the issues? How do we get there?

[Congresswoman Madeleine Dean]

I'm hoping there are some adults in the room who will say, actually, this is relatively simple. You are using this shutdown and vote is using the shutdown and others to cut health care away from Americans. You know, under the ACA, more than 20 million people have been able to access health care. That health outcomes are better. This continuing resolution, this failure to budget for more than a year, but plus the big ugly bill is just an attempt to rip health care away from those millions of Americans. And so how do we get out of this? I don't know. I do hope we have some leaders in the Senate who will meet up with Democratic leaders in the House and that the speaker might be a broker for this. I would wish that would say, you know what? You're absolutely right. We gave permanent tax cuts to the wealthiest among us, blowing up our deficit. We do have to respond to the American people and make the ACA still affordable to millions of Americans who are just working people.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's also incredibly popular with the American public, including among independents and Republicans. By the numbers, it's like 71%. I know that the part of the clip that I asked you about first is what a lot of people have seen, but I know you also pressed the speaker on health care. Can you tell us just a little bit more about that part of the exchange?

[Congresswoman Madeleine Dean]

And I will tell you, Jen, we spoke about many different things, and I give him credit. He and I have done this over the years. And I know he's a busy man, I respect the position he is in. But we had a chance to talk an awful lot. I talked about health care and SNAP benefits and how people were already going to be Getting as of October 1st information on their health care and the premiums and that they might be, and many will be priced out of health care for themselves and for their families. A family of four making $125,000 a year, they're going to see a premium increase by almost $8,000. That's four people, $125,000 a year, an increase of $8,000. So I said to him, your constituents, my constituents are going to lose access to health care. Real people are going to be hurt and their health is going to be hurt. Their children, their seniors, their families. And he said good. I said, what are you talking about? He said, well, you know what able bodied men, they need to be working using that old chestnut. I said, actually your constituents are going to be hurt by this. Working class people are going to be hurt by this. But there is a relishment, sadly among some Republicans. They want people not to have food supplements. I'm talking about the poorest among us seniors who need food. So they put up paperwork requirements hoping to trap people and trip them so they are thrown off. They like saving money that way. I think it's cruel, I think it's immoral. It's also lousy for the economy. That's the other thing. This was an administration that ran on saving people high cost of living. What have they done? They've only increased the cost of living. But I do want to say with the Speaker, I begged him finally to tell the truth. I said, when you keep saying this is a clean cr, number one, nobody cares what a CR is. They want government to function. You know, it's not a clean cr. You owe people the truth about what's going on. That's what I regret the most, that in this climate there's a willingness on the part of so many politicians and public service at the highest levels to lie for their own purposes.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congresswoman Madeline Dean I think a lot of people are happy you're a person who's willing to go talk to the speaker about the things that matter to people in this country. Thank you so much for joining me tonight. I really appreciate it.

[Congresswoman Madeleine Dean]

Good to be with you. Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, but we're after the break. Here's a question. Can OMB Director Russvote actually do what he is trying to do? I don't think so, but I have literally the perfect person to ask. Shalonda Young was the OMB director before russvote. I'm sure she's got a lot of thoughts and she joins me here at the table in 90 seconds.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Shalonda Young]

I think you use the word guys.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah.

[Shalonda Young]

You know, how is this different from what we've seen since January 21st? This is being used as an excuse to, frankly, carry out Project 2025. You know, the thing that they weren't for and now they love and embrace and are carrying out. So what's different? This is, you know, the shutdown is being used as a guise to do exactly what they've always intended to do, which is harass and harm federal workers and take programs away from hardworking Americans. We saw that in the bill this summer where they took health care away from over 16 million Americans, where they prioritized tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires and just, I guess, forgot to give assistance to those who use the Affordable Care act so their premiums don't go up. It's more the same in a lot of ways. And that's the sad part. Democrats didn't give an opportunity. They're saying they're not okay with all the litany of things I just listed.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There are things, you know, the authorities of omb. The OMB director probably better than almost anyone. Well, I mean, targeting states by their political vote. In the authority. No.

[Shalonda Young]

Right. Not the laws. I read.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I mean, trying to do mass firings during a. During a government shutdown. There wasn't one during your tenure.

[Shalonda Young]

But you don't get extra authority to fire people when you run out of money.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Exactly. And attempting to get rid of programs that have been authorized by Congress. We've already seen this.

[Shalonda Young]

Again, more of the same. You know, the Supreme Court talked about this when Nixon was president. I think Scalia called Nixon the impounder in chief. He just didn't get to see this president in action. And this is a complete power grab by this administration. This is a huge moment. Is Congress going to do what the Constitution was set up for them to do? Are they going to be a check on a president who is trying to act like a king? The founders actually knew what they were doing. They'd seen a king in action. And this Congress has just decided, no, all power lies with my old agency, the Office of Management and Budget, and the White House. I wish they would have told me that that's not how I operated. If Republicans needed to call me and their states needed something, we were there to help. If we could do it, that is.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You were kind of known as the Republican Whisperer, which is pretty miraculous given you have spent your career as a public servant working for Democrats, of course, including Joe Biden, including former Speaker Pelosi, Speaker Emerita Pelosi. What do you think is going on? They seem to be giving over their authority. Speaker Mike Johnson is. And even Senator, Senate Democratic leader. I'm sorry, Republican Leader John Thune seems to be giving over their authority. Do you think they don't want to resolve this? You think they don't know how to resolve this? You've been a part of so many negotiations. What's going on here?

[Shalonda Young]

1. This is not a negotiation. Where are the conversations? You don't work for the president. You work for your constituents. So if you want to see change, if you want a bill passed, if you want legislation, if you think something's not right, you go talk to congressional Democrats to get legislation passed. You know, this idea that Congress is subservient to the president is a modern day, I assume, political reality for the Republican Party, but it's incredibly dangerous for our democracy. This is not how this was envisioned to work. And it's troubling and it's about people's health care and costs. But it's also this dangerous path to the president consolidating power in ways that could change our democratic principles and the way this government operates for generations. And I heard, you know, one of the leaders say why Democrats want to give the OMB director the keys. Well, I have the same question. Before the government was shut down, why won't Congress take its power back from this White House, from this Office of Management and Budget? They would have certainly called me if I'd done anything like this.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I mean, if Russville had acted this way, Senator John Thune OR Senator Mitch McConnell would have called you right up the next day. Day. Shalonda Young, you have so much expertise. You remind us all what normal should be like. We are not living in this moment right now, but I'm so grateful you were here.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

Thank you for having me.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

All right, so we're going to take a break. Coming up, Howard Lutnick manages to contradict the Trump administration's entire story on the Epstein scandal. We talked about this last night. There's follow up because today the ranking Democrat on the House Oversight Committee, Robert Garcia, called on him to testify. Congressman Garcia is going to join me in just a moment. But first, Senator Amy Klobuchar says that all you have to do to understand Trump's priorities right now is to follow the money. Senator Klobuchar joins me next.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I need a coffee.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So right now, as we monitor the impacts of the ongoing government shutdown, try to keep you all informed and updated. Our nation's farmers, especially those who grow and export soybeans, are dealing with a crisis of their own. This all started with Trump's trade war with China. And I will get to that in a moment, I promise. But the way Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen tells it, somehow Joe Biden, yes, the man who has not been president for eight months, is at fault here. At the meeting in Geneva, when I asked him, why didn't you continue buying soybeans and the other products? They had one word, guess what it was Biden. Biden. That sounds like malarkey. Maybe because it is, in fact, malarkey. See, soybean farmers in states across the Midwest are struggling right now because China typically buys more than half of all of the soybeans grown here in the United States. But Trump started a trade war with China, as we all know. So they stopped buying our soybeans. As the New York Times headline bluntly puts it, China bought 12.6 billion in US soybeans last year. Now it's zero. That is quite a drop. But guess what? Trump didn't just start the problem, he is now actively making it worse. Do you recognize this guy holding the chainsaw with the crazy sideburns? That's the president of Argentina. And he is one of Trump's biggest cheerleaders and allies. He vowed to bring MAGA to Argentina to fix their economy. But surprise, like his buddy Trump, he failed horribly. And so last week, Scott Bessen, of all people, announced that the Trump administration would use $20 billion in U.S. tax dollars to bail out Argentina. Now, if you're asking how does this negatively impact America's soybean farmers? Well, let this text message reportedly sent to Bessen from Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rawlins that was captured by an AP photographer. Be careful where you text explain for you. It's hard to see, but it reads, we bailed out Argentina. And in return, the Argentines removed their export tariffs on grains, reducing their price, and sold a bunch of soybeans to China at a time when we would normally be selling to China. This gives China more leverage on us. Couldn't have stated the summary better there. So you've shut the government down, you're implementing the biggest cuts to Medicaid in history, rural hospitals are shutting, and now you are screwing over America's soybean farmers by bailing out Argentina. Bang up job, everyone. Lots to talk about there. As Senator Amy Klobuchar put it, are service members unpaid check to Argentina in the mail. It's quite a summary, too. Joining me now is Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar. So it's great to see you. You have been talking about, obviously soybean farmers. Minnesota is one of the states that's course impacted. I just kind of gave a summary there of like how people are being impacted by these economic policies. What does it kind of tell you about the administration's priorities right now?

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

It's unbelievable to me. And you can see there's some divide within their own administration. Imagine trying to explain this to a small soybean farmer, as I had to do last week. He told me, between the tariffs, between what's happening internationally, between these healthcare costs skyrocketing, over a quarter of our farmers are on on the affordable Care act and the state versions of it. He said, it's a perfect storm of ugly. And there is, in my state, 60% of the soybeans are exported. You've got 20% of ag production overall is exported. It's been one of the jewels of our American economy because of the fact we have growing export markets. These tariffs, not just on China, have decimated that, and these markets won't come back. So you add to that that they've given 20 billion, as you were speaking. I'm like, was it really billion or million? It was billion. 20 billion promised to his friend and in another country. And then they go and turn around and they sell. They get rid of the export tax Argentina does on their soybeans and sell it to China, which was the exact market used to be 250 million bushels a year that has dried up to nothing. That's what's going on. And that's why they must do something about these tariffs, number one. And number two, you don't want to saddle rural America, which is already smacked with all of this other stuff, with these incredible health care cuts, whether it's Medicaid, whether it's Medicare. It is. And now these Affordable Care act, because. Why? Well, these tax credits help them to afford their health care.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I said this yesterday. I mean, what strikes me here about their policies is it's bad policy, obviously, but it's also bad politics on a lot of this. It's like, who is deciding what room is this deciding and who is voting for it. And one of the things that falls into that category is this targeting of blue states that Russ Fotus talked about. I mean, today the energy department canceled $8 billion in funding for renewable energy projects that were already approved, something they can't do. And these projects don't just serve blue states, they serve red ones, too. And there's a huge influx of jobs around energy infrastructure. Again, I'm not asking you to answer like, who's voting for it? But it's like, do you think the Republicans in the Senate don't care? Do you think they're.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

I guess is they were not consulted about that. One of my favorite facts is I looked at the Minnesota ones, and they're about making energy more affordable. They're about electric companies and their grids. One of the projects is actually a lot in North Dakota, which is where the, you know, Interior Secretary's from. So I'm kind of like, what is going on here? So they are. These are not what you might think, these questions. Grants they're all about creating more energy supply. We're making energy more efficient. And at the same time, costs are going up and up on people's electricity bills. And I just think at some point, no matter how many horrific offensive deepfake videos the president put out, like he did after that health care meeting in the White House that he finally had on the budget, the things don't lie. People's electricity bills don't lie, their grocery bills when their grocery receipts don't lie, their health care premiums don't lie. They're going to see through all this. And the problem with this is, of course it's corrupt that he is targeting certain states. That's not how the budgeting works. It's one of the reasons why we're pushing this budget issue because we need to go back to normal where Congress makes the decision about the funding. And then, of course, the major reason is that we're in a health care crisis that they created. But when you look at what they've done here, those energy grants, they already are seeing escalating prices and they're going to get worse.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You are in your leadership position in the Democratic Senate. I think a lot of people are asking, I'm sure they're asking you, how does this get to an end?

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

This gets to an end when they come to the table in a real way, not making jokes about it like the president did with his video, not acting like, oh, we're just, we can do everything we want and we don't need your votes. That's not true, as they've found out. And the American people expect us to do something about this health care crisis. They need to make things better, and instead they're making them worse every single day. 15 million people kicked off Medicaid under the big, beautiful betrayal of a bill. $500 billion in Medicare cuts that were triggered because they added so much to the debt because of their tax cuts for the wealthy, and now you have something they can actually do. And behind closed doors and even publicly, some of the Republicans in the Senate have indicated that they realize that in their own states this is going to be a major devastation because people will see their insurance premiums double. So what they need to do is come to the table and figure this out with us and stop rubber stamping him or get him in the room, because if they're going to follow everything he does, and he prides himself in the art of the deal, he needs to make the deal.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Amy Klobuchar they should certainly know that what they're doing is unpopular. Thank you for joining me.

[Shalonda Young]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Okay, we're going to take a break after that. We're talking about a statue of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein which went back up today outside the Capitol. And that's kind of a perfect metaphor for the whole story right now. I'll explain when we come back. So last week we brought you this story about this massive 10 foot tall statue installed in front of the US Capitol on the National Mall commemorating Donald Trump's special friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. You might also remember that less than 24 hours after that permitted statue was put up, it was taken down literally overnight. The federal officials who took the statue down were apparently pretty rough with it with parts of the statue breaking off during its removal. According to a National Park Service official, the installation was removed for being out of compliance is how it was described because it was several feet taller than the permit allowed. Now, undeterred, the artist retrieved the statue and its broken off parts from officials repaired it and then got another permit last Thursday to reinstall it, only to be met with a line of cars, including unmarked vehicles, ready to grab the statue again if they attempted to put it back up. Well, today we have a new update to the Trump Epstein statue saga. It is back up just north of the U.S. capitol with a new name. Why can't we be Friends? Love that. Just when you think it's gone, it pops back up. That's the whole story here. And it's kind of the story of the scandal itself. I mean, as we told you just yesterday, Donald Trump's Commerce Secretary and ex neighbor of Jeffrey Epstein, Howard Lutnick, voluntarily sat down for a podcast interview released Tuesday. And in that interview, he single handedly managed to raise a bunch of new and frankly very disturbing questions about Epstein and his associates.

[Commercial Narrator (Odoo)]

That's what his M.O. was, you know, get a massage, get a massage.

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

And what happened in that massage room.

[Commercial Narrator (Odoo)]

I assume was on video. This guy was the greatest blackmailer ever. Blackmailed people. That's how he had money. I assume way back when they traded.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Those videos in exchange for him getting.

[Commercial Narrator (Odoo)]

That 18 month sentence. I have no knowledge, but my assumption is there was a trade for the.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Videos because there were people on those videos. That's Trump's own cabinet member making some pretty head turning assertions there. Epstein was the greatest blackmailer ever. He believes there are tapes and he thinks that Epstein treated those tapes of other individuals as part of a deal. Those are some pretty bold claims to be making when you consider that they run totally counter to what the rest of the Trump administration is saying. I mean, just last month, FBI Director Kash Patel testified under oath that there is no credible information that Epstein trafficked young women to other individuals besides himself. So if that's the case, I would love to ask Howard Lutnick, why don't you believe your administration's own FBI director? Well, apparently, I'm not the only one with questions. Many more important people have questions. Just today, the ranking chair of the House Oversight Committee, Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia, sent a letter to Lutnick, calling on him to testify before committee staff, given his apparent firsthand interactions with Epstein and knowledge of his crimes. Congressman Garcia is standing by, and he joins me next. When I first heard Donald Trump's own Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, say he believed Jeffrey Epstein was, quote, the greatest blackmailer ever and that there might be tapes, I had a feeling that the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee would be on the case immediately, and he certainly was. Joining me now is California Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia, also ranking member of the House Oversight Committee. Okay, so you are calling on Trump's Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, to testify about his knowledge and assumptions about Epstein. I mean, you can tell me if he's already voluntarily agreed, but it may be that you have to work with your Republican colleague and you've had success doing that, to issue a subpoena or other methods of getting him there. Do you think there's an openness to that from your Republican colleague?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

I mean, I sure hope so. I mean, the comments were stunning. And I don't know how anyone can listen to that podcast and not think that Mr. Lutnick has to get in front of us for a lot of questioning. I mean, to say that and make assumptions about a bribery scheme and about blackmail, to say that, of course, he himself went to Epstein's apartment and was kind of offered these services. There's a lot, clearly, of information that the secretary has, and it's just we're back to the circle of powerful men, Cabinet Secretaries Epstein, Donald Trump. And we have a lot of questions. And look, we have been working with Chairman Comer when he hasn't worked with us. We've forced votes. Right now, we're very close to getting a deal, a bipartisan deal on bank and financial records. So we're working through that right now. But I have to say, I mean, this Lutnick revelation is pretty stunning. He should absolutely appear in front of Oversight, and we've sent a letter today to hopefully make that happen.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There's a lot, you're all pouring through. There are some sensitivities around, of course, protecting the victims, which are very important. Is there anything he said in that interview that surprised even you?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

I had no. Look, we weren't aware that he had actually been to Jeffrey Epstein's home. And look, this is something that we would have possibly known had the full files been release. And he certainly had never claimed that he was aware of possible blackmail. Now, we've made assumptions, we have theories about what may be happening or what has happened, but he basically laid out a possibility in this sweetheart deal that Jeffrey Epstein got, of course, from Alex Acosta, another former Cabinet secretary of Donald Trump's. And what was happening in exchange for that? This idea that there was a blackmail going on, that Jeffrey Epstein has videos and documentation and files on these powerful men that he was somehow using to his advantage. And this is all why getting our hands on the full files and documents is so important. And it's becoming more clear every day whether it's Peter Thiel now being involved, Elon Musk possibly, possibly going to Epstein Island, Lutnik involved. What's been happening with Acosta, the more and more that comes out, I think it's pretty clear that there are a lot of powerful men in politics, in business across the country and world that do not want these Epstein files to come out. And so we are committed, we're working hard, and I hope to have some very good progress soon to report on the financial documents which are key to this entire case.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

No question. I hope you'll come back and share them with us before I let you go. You have a lot of things, a lot of things on the burner, I should say. I mean, you're calling for an investigation into Republican messaging tax tactics during the shutdown, specifically. We've all seen this, we've talked about on the show. The administration using government resources like websites and federal employee emails to spread political messages, blaming Democrats. What do you want to know?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

Outrageous. What's happening? I mean, this idea that we are using all this partisan language and these attempts to intimidate folks, not just federal employees, but the public, through our websites, through. Now, we're being told that, of course, email signatures are being changed without knowledge of federal workers. This is clearly all violations, violations of the Hatch Act. This is clearly illegal activity that's happening. Donald Trump is using every opportunity he has to intimidate, to scare people, certainly to have no respect for federal workers and their workspace. And so what's right now really important is that oversight is engaged in every single one of these illegal activities. And so we're anything that is coming up, we've encouraged federal employees. We have a whistleblower program and oversight that we have set up. Federal employees are reaching out to us. They're telling us their stories or they're directing us where we need to get information. And we hope that that will continue, but we will continue to investigate. Every single time Donald Trump moves and is causing harm to this country and certainly to this government, we're going to be on it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congressman Garcia, I know I say this when you're on it matters who the ranking member is of committees. You're a good example of that, that there's so many things happening in your committee at once. So thank you again for coming here and sharing updates with us. Come back anytime. I know you always have updates. We've got to take a very quick break. Lawrence o' Donnell has Senator Adam Schiff standing by. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue Sky, Instagram and TikTok.

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