← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
U.S. intelligence community freaks out as Trump leads by conspiracy theory
00:41:15
Vaughn Hillyard, Eugene Daniels, and Scott MacFarlane talk with Jen Psaki about Donald Trump appointing a hatchet man to run amok in the U.S. intelligence community, making cuts based on “deep state” paranoid conspiracy theories.
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- [00:01]
Jen Psaki
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- [00:39]
Eugene Daniels
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- [00:40]
Jen Psaki
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Eugene Daniels
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Jen Psaki
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Ro Khanna
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- [00:53]
Jen Psaki
and can hire with confidence for your next home project. Try thumbtack. Hire the right pro today. Okay, it is officially 4th of July weekend and tomorrow will mark 250 years since our nation declared independence. And that kind of anniversary is of course supposed to be bigger than any one person or political party. That is how it's always been designed. That is how the planning, even of this 250th anniversary was designed. And under any other president, that's how it would be. But Donald Trump simply can't help but make it all about himself. He has openly described the festivities, which were supposed to honor the country as, quote, the most spectacular Trump rally of all time. Of them, all of them all. He's promised that the various bands performing tomorrow evening will be playing patriotic melodies. Okay. American classics also fine. And my playlist, as in his playlist, so settle in everyone, for some YMCA and all sorts of other specialties. And rather than simply extend the invitation to all Americans, he framed the invite around personal loyalty, telling people to come to D.C. quote, if you like airplanes and fireworks. And President Trump, he cannot seem to make it through a single part of the celebration without making it about himself. I mean, here he was today in an appearance with second lady Usha Vance, where he was supposed to be reading children's books about American history and encouraging kids to read. That was the whole assignment here. Not a hard one. Here's what happened though. Everything that you just described, all of
- [02:32]
Liz Sawyer
these incredible accomplishments, they take a lot of reading.
- [02:35]
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Do you have any time to read
- [02:36]
Ro Health / DSW Advertiser
for fun these days?
- [02:38]
Ro Khanna
So I end up reading mostly newspapers. I usually read stories about myself.
- [02:43]
Jen Psaki
Well, with so much going on in
- [02:44]
Liz Sawyer
the world, it's really kind of you
- [02:46]
Jen Psaki
to take a moment to read. So kind of you, Mr. President, to take a moment to read about yourself, isn't it? On the eve of the anniversary, 250th anniversary of our country. So kind of you. By the way, they edited that themselves. So that was apparently the most usable part of his answer, which again, wasn't a hard question. I'm sure she knew that, but that's another story. The point here is that Donald Trump cannot help but politicize our nation's 250th anniversary, not allow it to be a celebration of the United States, a celebration for everyone. It has to be about him, his goals, his ego. But honestly, Donald Trump politicizing the events around the 250th may be the least of our worries right now because Trump and his administration are politicizing a whole lot more than just America's birthday party today. MSNOW's Vaughn Hilliard, who I'm about to talk with, and David Rhode report that Trump's new acting Director of National Intelligence, Bill Pulte has carried out another purge within the intelligence community, firing dozens of career officials. One official told Ms. Now that the administration is targeting people who they believe are deep state. Remember that Bill pulte is a 38 year old home construction Nepo baby who had zero intelligence experience before being appointed to this role. That's his background, everyone. He has only had the job for two weeks, but somehow he has already decided that dozens of career intelligence officials are part of the so called deep state and fired them. As one former official told Ms. Now, and this is quite a quote, this isn't a guy who is familiar with intelligence. It would be like me taking over a hospital and firing dozens of surgeons in a matter of days. Trump is politicizing our nation's intelligence agencies over his paranoid conspiracy theories. And those conspiracies are also driving big changes at the Department of Justice. Two U.S. officials tell MSNOW's Kandelanean that the FBI is now directing hundreds of personnel to to investigate the 2020 election results in Georgia, all as part of an effort to justify Trump's stolen election conspiracy theory. Documents obtained by msnow show that FBI leadership is authorizing intelligence analysts to work overtime, including weekends and holidays on the case. And FBI Director Kash Patel is ordering personnel from all field offices to participate. Trump is politicizing the FBI over his own election conspiracies. He's politicizing America's intelligence community over his own deep state conspiracies. And now a former top US General is sounding the alarm about Trump politicizing the United States military. Retired four star general and former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, CQ Brown was fired by Trump in February of last year. But as a high ranking military official, he is really primarily, really most dumb. Not resisted the urge overall to speak out against the commander in chief. That is until today when he, along with two co authors published an essay for Foreign affairs warning about the growing political influence in our military. And they write in this piece, when presidents use the armed forces for more politically contentious missions, such as addressing domestic crime in cities, the work of the military becomes more fraught. If you ask too much of the military, you risk the entire enterprise. There's a reason that institutions like the US Military and the FBI and the intelligence community are supposed to be apolitical and have long been apolitical. We are supposed to be able to trust that the career officials and service members have only one agenda, keeping us safe. But with a president who cannot even get through a fourth of July celebration without making everything about himself and his political grievances, that trust gets harder and harder to maintain. Joining me now are msnow White House reporter Vaughn Hilliard, whose reporting I just mentioned, co host of the weekend here on msNow, Eugene Daniels and chief Washington correspondent for From Midas Touch, Scott McFarlane. Thank you all for being here with me. A lot to chew over. Vaughn, I'm start with you. I referenced your reporting about what Bill Pulte is doing to the Office of National Intelligence. Tell us more about what the mood is. I mean, I have friends and I know people who are in the intelligence community or have been for a long time. They're freaked out about it. I mean, it's funny how unprepared he is and how unqualified, but it's also incredibly scary. But what are people telling you? You talk to?
- [07:13]
Vaughn Hilliard
We've seen this at the Department of Justice, we have seen this at departments and agencies, administration. But the fact that it's hitting the office of the Director of National Intelligence and the CIA and the intelligence agencies that are paramount to the national security of the United States of America is what is driving these alarm bells. And Donald Trump was very clear when he called on Acting Director Bill Pulte to come into this position in the perhaps limited time that he may be in there a couple months. He said that he wanted to eliminate the deep state. And, and I am told that that is exactly what started happening the last 24 hours. The conspiracy theory about that there are folks that have been working over the last years to subvert Donald Trump politically. And when he was in the White House during his first administration. And so Bill Pulte, you said it. He has no intelligence history. He has does not have the credentials other than he is committed to doing exactly what Donald Trump wants. And if you go to the campaign trail in 2022, 2023, 2024, Donald Trump told us it was not the threats from outside the United States, but it was the threats from within that he said were his foremost concern. He has found the guy that is now actively and I am told by an intelligence official that their understanding is that this is going to be taking place over the following days. They are driving out not political appointees under Tulsi Gabbard, but career officials that have served for years within this office
- [08:40]
Jen Psaki
who have decades of experience. When you eliminate them, I should say from this department, you're taking away understanding and knowledge and know how that you can't rebuild easily or quickly. Let me Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan's new book, which we've all probably read, hundreds of thousands of people, turns out I've read they have a lot of interesting anecdotes in them. And one of them related to Pulte, it's related to Pulte's use of props and while he was still in charge of the Housing Finance Agency. And I think it tells you a lot because in the book they talk about how he would lug foam boards under his arm with photos to illustrate his case about various targets who should be prosecuted. I mean, he wasn't, he's not qualified to run FHFA either, but he's certainly not qualified to be the odni. What does it say to you, Eugene? I mean, you've covered this administration. You've thought a lot about it, about the way he approaches the job. And perhaps to me, there's a tell in there about how he really got the job. Given Trump is so visual and he's clear why he wants people in these
- [09:43]
Eugene Daniels
jobs, it feels like part of how Donald Trump learns and likes to be talked to is like he likes a big photo. He likes something that's very clear. He doesn't, as we all know, he doesn't, despite what he told Usha Vance, he doesn't read a lot, according to everyone who we've ever talked to. I think that's what's so interesting about this is it feels like I was talking to someone yesterday who's Kind of an expert in Democratic backsliding. And they were like talking about Pulte before your great reporting came out. But this concern that we're gonna backslide into democracy as a country led some of, in his words, the dumbest people. Right? And that seems to be how it's operating. Right. You have Bill Pulte, 38 years old, no experience. The only experience he has is in the housing agency going after people like Adam Schiff, the senator from California, going after Lisa Cook, going after Letitia James. That's what he is doing. And Donald Trump has made clear, both explicitly and implicitly to everybody around him what they want him to do. And I think when you talk to folks about he's only gonna be in for a couple of months until they get the real DN there, there's a lot of damage that he can do, both in terms of firing all of these folks, selectively throwing out intel information that maybe he has no qualifications to look through. And that is the biggest concern. When I talk to folks, Republicans and
- [10:58]
Jen Psaki
Democrats, the foam board creation, it is like keeping staples in business. I don't even know what, but it's telling people. You can imagine Trump saying, like, get me the guy who does the big pictures, which is kind of a wild thing. Let me bring you, Scott, into this. Because you have covered so many things in your career, including the Department of Justice, it's unfortunately difficult to keep track sometimes of all of the purges that have taken place throughout key parts of the administration and parts that have been historically nonpartisan served presidents of both parties. As you look at the kind of, the big picture here of all of these purges of the intelligence community of the Department of Justice is where do, where does it leave us? What should people understand about that?
- [11:48]
Scott McFarlane
Let's start with how it's demoralizing to the people left behind. We've seen that inside the Department of Justice, where literally thousands of professionals and attorneys are gone from this time last year, thousands at the FBI where experienced. In some cases, the most experienced agents are gone. Now you're seeing that same type of turnover purge inside the Director of National Intelligence's office. You have staffing issues. We saw staffing shortages at the U.S. attorney's offices in Washington, D.C. and Minneapolis and elsewhere. If you have a staffing shortage at the Director of National Intelligence's office, there's untold danger that comes with it. And Jen, I was talking to Mark Warner, top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, who said not only is he concerned about a turnover of staff at vital agencies. But he says Bill Pulte is not just somebody he fears could mechanize the office with bad intent. He's somebody who could negligently let something bad happen and the damage could be done in hours or days, not weeks or months. This is a radically bad situation. And I don't find any Republican senators taking up the cause of Bill Pulte right now.
- [12:57]
Jen Psaki
It's such a sobering point. And Mark Warner has been very clear of his views of Bill Pulte. But you don't really always know what the intelligence community is doing. They are preventing bad things from happening. So it is a lot of unknowns there. I want to turn to Georgia because there's been a lot of news from there. I mentioned some of the reporting by our colleague Ken Delaney and about ongoing investigations into the 2020 election in Georgia, which is a sentence like, are we still saying this at this point in time? What strikes me about this, a lot of things. But when Republicans, when most Republicans are asked about this, they say, I don't wanna relitigate the past, but this is very much, obviously relitigating the past. And there seems to be. And some of this comes again from the reporting from Jonathan Swan and Maggie Haberman's book. This kind of what I would consider a conf between Trump not being out there, he's not campaigning, but he's sort of using every lever he can to mess with the elections, to kind of relitigate the past. What is the overall goal here, Vaughn? I mean, we've covered them for so long.
- [13:59]
Vaughn Hilliard
It's clear the goal is to put forward potential indictments related to the 2020 election. And I think that we have been wondering for six years. This is the part is that he has people inside of these offices now, Kash Patel, Bill Pulte, that have access to vast amount of documents here. And what you are able to effectively do is present that to a grand jury. We saw this effectively go before a judge in order to go and get that search warrant to go and access the 2020 ballots out of Fulton county here. And we went back to what they came up with to essentially make the case for why they should be able to go and access those ballots. We have seen those claims in their bunk. And yet when you go and present to the American public or present to a potential grand jury very complex data about how voting actually works and the counting works, it is easy to really sort of blur the lines of what is truth versus what. You know, these prosecutors, U.S. attorneys put into office by Donald Trump are going to tell people that you would want to naturally respect the word of are going to make the case to these grand juries here. And so while we have for years now gone and effectively relitigated so many of these, we don't know what else they are going to try to put out there as a means of trying to muddy the waters and potentially bring indictments against individuals, knowing that they have access to troves of information that clearly people have had in the past and haven't been able to do anything with.
- [15:30]
Jen Psaki
I think that's one of the most interesting things to pay. And none of it's surprising, but there's obviously more to come. Let me ask you, Eugene. This feels to me like as we get closer to the midterms, the conspiracy theorizing going on in the White House is just like, magnifying, multiplying, all of it. Is there an eye roll going on for some political people around Trump, or are they all kind of on the conspiracy train? What is the overall vibe?
- [15:58]
Eugene Daniels
It kind of depends on how close they are to Trump. Right. I feel like the folks that are kind of as close to him, they kind of feel the same way that something must have happened, because at the end of the day, this is because Donald Trump feels like he was a loser. He was a loser. He lost in 2020. Everybody actually knows that. When you talk to Republicans, whether they're political operatives or folks that are on the Hill, what they will tell you is that just let him do it. But this is what happened in 2020, is he was saying before he lost the 2020 election that folks are going to steal it with mail in voting. People said, just let him do it. Just like, he'll move on. He's not going to do anything with this. Then January 6th happened. So we know how far he's willing to go to perpetuate this lie that he is not a loser in 2020. The thing that is scariest is that you have these folks like Bill Pulte and like Cash Patel who seem like they're fine with bending some of the rules and the ways that we think they should be doing.
- [16:52]
Jen Psaki
Bending the rules is very generous way of describing it.
- [16:54]
Eugene Daniels
It's a holiday weekend, but making sure that they are just gonna do whatever they can to make sure they find the crime right and they can go through all the things they want to, but there wasn't enough evidence. His own folks during 2020 said it was the most we've ever had in this country. And so why would that change six years later it wouldn't. But what they put out, it will change. And that's concerning.
- [17:19]
Jen Psaki
Scott, let me ask you, let me pick up on something that Vaughn alluded to, which is just, I mean, none of this is surprising, right? None of this is really them surging FBI officials to go again, dig into this conspiracy in Georgia. They've already seized the ballot boxes. You have spent many years thinking about what's next and where this is going from here. How are you thinking about that particular question right now?
- [17:44]
Scott McFarlane
I know my contacts who used to be with the Department of Justice, Jen, are concerned about this trifecta that seems to be unfolding. Pardoning of violent rioters who tried to overthrow an election, potentially paying off violent rioters who sought to overturn an election and now lionizing, worshiping almost some of these January 6th rioters who tried to overturn an election. They're really setting up this potential, this, this dangerous cocktail of people taking violent actions after November or after November 2028 because they think there's been a precedent set and the precedent is it's okay to do it. And you mentioned earlier and Vaughn mentioned earlier that people don't want to be asked anymore about the 2020 election or the 2020 election lies on Capitol Hill. It's because there really is no defense for them. And I can tell you as somebody who covered 1-6-Gen, the people who have were convicted or they relatives have tried to bully us or quiet us from talking about January 6th anymore. Cuz there's really no defense for it. That type of stuff doesn't work but it speaks to the moment we're in and the fact that we are still being fed a fire hose of lies.
- [18:57]
Ro Khanna
Yeah.
- [18:57]
Jen Psaki
And the silence around the conspiracy theorizing is tells tells us a lot as well. Vaughn Hilliard, Eugene Daniels, Scott McFarland, thank you all so much for being here with me. Appreciate it. Okay, coming up today we saw some counter programming to Donald Trump's America 250 celebrations from New York City Mayor Zoran Ramdani. And to say the contrast to Stark might be the biggest understatement of the last 250 years. Congressman Ro Khanna is standing by and he joins me next.
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- [20:30]
Jen Psaki
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Jen Psaki
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- [21:00]
Jen Psaki
Okay, so I have good news and bad news. First, the bad news. I'm gonna start there. The heat wave we are experiencing in the eastern United States is so hot, so dangerously hot, that it forced Donald Trump's Great American State Fair and the National Mall to shut down for several hours this afternoon. And for the handful of people looking forward to attending, that was probably a big old bummer. But for everyone else, the good news is that Donald Trump's Great American State Fair was shut down for several hours and our country was briefly spared the national embarrassment of the empty booths and the janky Ferris wheel and the collapsing state sets and the whole ghost town vibe the fair is giving off on this Independence Day eve. You could be forgiven for wanting a different way to mark our 250th birthday. Believe me, I feel you. And this morning, New York City Mayor Zahra Mamdani offered an alternative. Sitting behind a desk once used by President George Washington and surrounded by immigrants who just recently became brand new American citizens, Mayor Mamdani celebrated a vision of America very different from the one we hear from the Trump administration. I want to play you a nice sizable chunk of it here because I think it is, especially on a day like today, very much worth hearing.
- [22:15]
Zoran Mamdani
We are told that America is exceptional because we are richer, stronger, more powerful than everyone else. The truth, my friends, is that America is exceptional because here, nothing is fixed into place the frontier may be closed. We may have walked on the moon, but the work of fulfilling the values first enshrined in the Declaration of Independence. That work endures. And it belongs to us all. It belongs, too, to our newest Americans, those standing here with me today, all of whom were recently naturalized nearly a decade ago. I, too, felt what you feel. The joy of no longer being just a New Yorker, but an American, too. You each hold a special power, the power to determine what America means. The powerful have always known their answer. America, in their view, is an arena of supremacy, where only a select few are allowed freedom, where not all are created equal. America, if you ask them, becomes less the more people it welcomes. America, they will tell you, belongs only to those with the right accent or the right shade of skin. The rest of us, they insist, should be grateful for merely being allowed to visit. How small they are, how weak, how unoriginal. Those ideals upon which our nation was built, they are strong enough to endure any authoritarian regime, but only if we reach for them. Ours is a nation working each day towards the perfection in which it was conceived. A nation striving each day to better itself. Therein lies the work of America, the striving, the bettering, the reaching towards perfection. What a privilege each of us has to live in a nation that every one of its inhabitants can shape. What a responsibility each of us possesses to prove ourselves worthy of all those who came before.
- [24:06]
Jen Psaki
New York City Mayor Zoran MAMDANI Marking America's 250th anniversary today, drawing a not so subtle contrast with the Trump administration and its view of American greatness. Joining us now is Congressman Ro Khanna, Democrat of California. It's great to see you. Thanks for being here with me.
- [24:23]
Ro Khanna
Happy 4th.
- [24:24]
Jen Psaki
So I know you campaigned with Mayor Mamdani when he was running. I'm sure you probably watched that speech today. What did you think of it and what do you think about? Give us your sense of the contrast he was drawing there.
- [24:36]
Ro Khanna
I'm glad he did it. It's showing that the same country that produced Donald Trump produced Zoran Hamdani. And Zoran, as you know, is a student of history, so it was significant. He did that with George Washington's desk. With New York being the first capital of this country, people often don't remember that. Zoran knows that, and he was giving a powerful message of this, linking back to our founding ideals, that the declaration says that we have equality for every person and that this is a nation, really, that is based on that creed and has welcomed immigrants and he's claiming that vision as true patriotism and inspiring and it's gonna resonate across the country.
- [25:15]
Jen Psaki
One thing that struck me about his speech was a lot of, for people who listen to the totality of it, which they should, a lot of the speech were things that a Republican would have said in a speech on a day like today, 10 years, 15 years ago, and yet pretty basic patriotic stuff for the most part. And reacting some to the moment we're of course living in. But it's made the right wing go completely crazy. What does that tell you about this moment?
- [25:41]
Ro Khanna
Well, some of the things Reagan would have said, right, that only you can only be American, regardless of your background here and you can't do that in France or Japan. And Mamdani was talking about these common themes, but they're so threatened by him because he's a vision for a multiracial America and they reject that. They don't want that. They want an America that is far more exclusive. I mean, Vance talks about the hierarchy of Americans that if you don't come from a certain culture and if you haven't fought in the Civil War and if you haven't fought been here for generations, then you're sort of less than someone like me who's the son of immigrants or someone like Zoran who's an immigrant. And that's their real worldview. And Zoran's offering the alternative.
- [26:26]
Jen Psaki
You sit on the House Armed Services Committee and I earlier in the show, the beginning of the show, I talked a little bit about the piece that C.Q. brown, General C.Q. brown, who was fired of course, as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff beginning of Trump's term, wrote where he basically warns against deploying the military into American cities and some of the other tendencies we're seeing from this administration. I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. He has been fairly quiet and hasn't said a lot publicly. This is an exception to that. What did you make of it?
- [26:58]
Ro Khanna
He's coming to our China Committee in a couple weeks and he is someone who was fired and hasn't spoken out. But now he's going to start to speak out about the blatant anti patriotic actions of this president. I mean, putting the military on the street, firing generals who have dedicated their lives for 30 years without cause, promoting people who were white men and denying promotions for black Americans and women in arbitrary ways. And all of this is gonna come out and you're now seeing more military leaders recognize what's at stake and be willing to go public, which is not easy because they usually don't like doing that. And it just shows how much is at stake.
- [27:42]
Jen Psaki
I was just talking with the last group I was speaking with about the Bill Pulte news today about the firing and the purging of a number of people from the intelligence community. Something we knew was coming there was reporting about it, but it came today. Mark Warner is sounding a lot of alarm bells. What is your level of concern about this? What do you think people should understand about it?
- [28:03]
Ro Khanna
It's very concerning because it leads to incompetence. It's not just a D.C. thing. The fact we went to war in Iran and didn't figure out that Iran would close the Strait of Hormuz, that is a failure of expertise and intelligence. The fact that we are engaged in policies of cutting US Aid where we don't aren't able to detect Ebola is what happens when you don't have competence. And what you're seeing now is when you have a government that is simply based on cronyism, simply based on ideology, it actually has real world consequences. And Bolte is just the embodiment of that. Someone who has no knowledge, no competence. It's absurd that he's going to be doing that.
- [28:48]
Jen Psaki
It is definitely a place to watch closely and everybody should be paying close attention, as we will be as well. Congressman, thank you for being here.
- [28:54]
Ro Khanna
Thank you.
- [28:55]
Liz Sawyer
Happy fourth.
- [28:55]
Ro Khanna
You too.
- [28:56]
Jen Psaki
Okay. Coming up, Donald Trump is reportedly considering 250 pardons to mark this 250 150th anniversary, which that was not a real thing. That has been reported. And today he's announced six, I should say so far. Liz Oyer is the former US Pardoned attorney. Nobody knows how this is supposed to work better than she does. She joins me next.
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- [30:40]
Jen Psaki
So far we are at 6, which is a long way from 250. But it is only 7:36 on the eve before 4th of July. And President Trump basically says, he said telltale's not that much about these six people, I should say today, unfortunately, I can't tell you that much else about the pardons because the White House hasn't released official information about them. We only know the names of five of the six people right now because their lawyer told CBS News about it. So there's that. The president says they were originally prosecuted for fixing their car. That's his description. And CBS News reported earlier today that the president was considering pardoning people found guilty of violating the Clean Air Act. So that's where we are now. Also up for consideration is a pardon for Sean Diddy Combs, who was convicted on two federal charges related to prostitution. And these pardons today are presumably just the beginning of what could be a big massive pardoning blitz from the president, who reportedly again is considering whether to issue 250 pardons as kind of a spectacle surrounding the country's 250th birthday. It all just screams Happy Birthday, America. Yeah, doesn't it? 250 pardons. Now, of course, the president has full authority over who gets a pardon. It's in the Constitution. But there are guidelines in place to make sure the process, it's supposed to be fair and free of bias and free of corruption. For one thing, there's a job at the Justice Department called the pardon attorney. This is usually a career official, nonpartisan job. Of course, early in his second term, President Trump fired the pardon attorney when she would not do what he wanted. And he replaced her with right wing activist and election denier Ed Martin. CNN reports that in another break with protocol. The pardon vetting process in the Trump White House is managed by a small team of the president's closest advisers, including his chief of staff, who handpicks her selections before presenting them to the president for his approval. Say it with me now. We can't say it too many times. This is not how this is supposed to work. Joining me now is Liz Lawyer. She was the pardon attorney at the Justice Department until President Trump fired her last year. Thank you for being here. It's great to see you. Let me start by asking you just about what we know. We know right now that he has pardoned six people reportedly for violations of the Clean Air Act. What do you make of that?
- [33:02]
Liz Sawyer
Well, those particular pardons are probably based on policy disagreement with prosecution of environmental crimes. But the bigger picture with Donald Trump is the way in which he uses pardons consistently to reward people who exhibit bad behavior in furtherance of his agenda. And we don't know enough about these individuals to know whether they are examples of that. But he certainly has consistently used the pardon power to reward people who commit crimes that further his political agenda. Crimes in the name of Donald Trump that started on day one of his administration when he pardoned the 1600 Capitol rioters and it continued in a pretty much unbroken streak throughout the first several months of his presidency.
- [33:46]
Jen Psaki
What has gone through your head as you have seen the reporting about the potential for 250 pardons to mark the 250th anniversary, including reportedly potentially P. Diddy?
- [33:58]
Liz Sawyer
Well, I mean, a pardon for P. Diddy would really just defy all norms for use of the pardon power. People who commit offenses related to sexual exploitation are not considered for pardons during ordinary times. And Trump reportedly is also considering pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell. He hasn't ruled out pardoning Glenn Maxwell, the co defendant of Jeffrey Epstein, who was convicted of sex trafficking of minor children. So the fact that he won't rule these out shows that there are really no off limits types of crimes for Donald Trump in the use of the pardon power. But what really at sort of a deep level bothers me about this is that there are a lot of really deserving people. There are people who have gone through the process that you're supposed to go through. The they've submitted all of their materials, they've undergone background investigations conducted by the FBI, they've provided character references and they've really demonstrated that they've earned and deserved this type of relief. And those applications are languishing at the Justice Department while people who have political Connections are jumping the line and getting pardons that they don't frankly deserve.
- [35:03]
Jen Psaki
It's such an important reminder there's a pardon process in place for a reason, because there are many people out there who warrant them. I was just saying this to you during the break. I mean, you have played such an incredible role educating people about how this process is supposed to work, which sometimes is, I think, what we can do in this moment. I just mentioned some reporting about their process they're going about at this point in time, which includes close advisors from the White House, including the Chief of staff, making her own list to submit it. Help people understand. You've done this so many times, but every time there's a big story. I think people need to understand how this is actually supposed to work.
- [35:39]
Liz Sawyer
Yeah, the way it's supposed to work is people submit an application to the Channel Justice Department, the Office of the Pardon Attorney, which is historically a nonpartisan, non political office, vets the applications consistent with a long standing set of criteria. We do a, we did, when I was leading it, a rigorous investigation of the applicants to see if they truly had demonstrated that they were deserving based on the merit, based on things like rehabilitation and good conduct in the community over a lengthy period of time. And then we would make recommendations that would go up to the President for, for the president's ultimate decision. There was a rigorous vetting process and criteria that were consistently applied. All of that has now gone out the window. And Donald Trump has essentially turned this into something akin to the Hunger Games. I mean, he's created a situation where people are ponying up huge amounts of money. They're leveraging political connections, they're hiring well connected lobbyists. People in Trump's inner circle are making exorbitant sums of money, promising the possibility of pardons. And it is really just quite fundamentally corrupt as well as dangerous.
- [36:43]
Jen Psaki
There have been, to your point, a lot of reporting about the amount of money lobbyists are being paid to try to get people pardons. While I have you here, you wrote this incredibly powerful piece for Substack. It was part of a kind of an intro to a letter that you sent to the Senate Judiciary Committee about your concerns about Todd Blanche being nominated to be the Attorney General. And you include a reference to something that's very personal. You talk about how Blanche subjected you and your family to an extended course of retaliatory conduct, including attempting to prevent you from informing Congress about his actions. U.S. marshal delivered an intimidating letter to your home. What should people understand about the danger? It would pose for Blanche to be confirmed as the attorney general.
- [37:25]
Liz Sawyer
Todd Blanche knows no limits to which he will go to carry out Donald Trump's agenda, his political agenda. He has gutted the career workforce at the Department of Justice, which has limited the ability of that organization to do its core mission, which is to protect public safety, to keep Americans safe, and to uphold the rule of law in this country. And instead, he has prioritized Donald Trump's political interests, financial interests, and personal interests over and above the interests of the American people, which makes him fundamentally unsuited for this role. What he did in my case, firing me because I wouldn't sign off on a political favor for a friend of the president and then retaliating against me and my family. Unfortunately, it's not unique. There have been countless civil servants who've been treated this way. There are thousands of Justice Department lawyers who have resigned or been forced out under Todd Blanche's leadership. And he has really just done such a tremendous amount of damage to that organization as deputy attorney general that it is unthinkable that he could be confirmed as attorney general.
- [38:24]
Jen Psaki
Liz Sawyer, thank you for being here.
- [38:26]
Liz Sawyer
Thanks, Jen.
- [38:27]
Jen Psaki
Okay, coming up, do you want Lindsey Graham to lose his job in the Senate? I suspect the answer is yes. And you're gonna really want to hear from my next guest. We'll be right back. Tomorrow's not just America's 250th birthday. It is also a different anniversary. One year since Donald Trump signed his big ugly bill. It has already kicked millions off of SNAP benefits and has given tax breaks to big corporations. And starting on January 1st of year, the law adds stringent Medicaid work requirements, forcing millions of Americans to jump over even tougher hurdles to qualify for health care. And just this week, more than two dozen Democratic led states have filed a lawsuit to challenge those work requirements. Now, the looming effects of the big ugly Bill, along with RFK Jr. S feckless leadership of America's Health Services, have motivated a new crop of Democratic candidates, doctors to run this cycle. One of them is Dr. Annie Andrews. She is challenging the very much not a doctor, Senator Lindsey Graham, who incidentally cheered Donald Trump on when he signed that big ugly bill last year. Joining me now is Dr. Annie Andrews, the Democratic nominee for a US Senate in the state of South Carolina. It's great to see you. Thank you for joining me. Let me start by asking you, for people watching right now who are just getting to know you, what more do you want them to know about why you're running and what you can bring to the state of South Carolina and the Senate that is far different from Lindsey Graham.
- [40:05]
Dr. Annie Andrews
Well, thank you so much for having me, Jen. I'm so happy to be here. As you said, I'm a pediatrician and a mom of three school age kids. I've been taking care of South Carolina's sick and injured children for over 20 years. I'm a pragmatic problem solver and I'm a public servant. And I'm in this race because I'm running against one of Washington's biggest self servants, Lindsey Graham, who's been in Congress since I was in eighth grade. Lindsey Graham is a warmonger. He is a swamp creature. He is a sycophant and he wakes up every day and thinks about everything but South Carolina. So I'm in this race to return this Senate seat to the people of South Carolina.
- [40:44]
Jen Psaki
South Carolina hasn't had a Democratic senator in more than 20 years, as you well know, and Lindsey Graham's last Democratic challenger and I think a lot of of political nerds watching right now will remember this. Jaime Harrison amassed a massive record set of fundraising numbers but still lost by 10 points. Why do you believe Graham is more vulnerable in this race than he has been in the past?
- [41:08]
Dr. Annie Andrews
So 2026 is not our average election cycle. We've had six more years of failed leadership from Lindsey Graham. He's led the way on this deeply unpopular war with Iran. They haven't done anything to address address the affordability crisis that so many South Carolinians are facing. So he is uniquely vulnerable this election cycle. He is one of the most unpopular incumbent Republicans on the ballot in November. His net favorability rating in our recent poll is negative 20. And that's after he spent over $10 million just to win his own primary. And on the other side of the ballot, I'm not your average Democrat. Our research shows that I'm over performing generic Democrats by double digits with really key subsets of voters, including non maga Republicans, suburban voters and women.
- [41:55]
Jen Psaki
You mentioned a number of things about Lindsey Graham. That he's a warmonger, that he's a swamp creature. You've been traveling around the state of South Carolina for what are people? What is the biggest issue right now in this particular moment? Is it affordability? Is it the war? Is it a combination? Is it swamp creatures? Tell us more about what you're hearing from voters.
- [42:14]
Dr. Annie Andrews
Yeah, so the number one issue I'm hearing from voters is aligned with the reason I'm in this race and it's the unprecedented coordinated attack we're witnessing on America's health care system. That includes the impending Medicaid budget cuts that will be devastating to so many people who live in South Carolina where we never even bothered to expand Medicaid and we already have 15 counties without an OB GYN. People are also worried about Medicare. They're worried about their prescription drug prices and the broader issues of affordability. They can't afford to put gas in the tank, put food on the table and keep the lights on. And they see Lindsey Graham in Washington, D.C. doing everything Donald Trump tells him to do and doing nothing that the folks in South Carolina need him to do. We're also hearing a lot about the anti corruption piece. They see that Lindsey Graham has changed his tune on nearly every issue since he's been in the U.S. senate. He used to follow along with John McCain and Mitt Romney, and now he's following the loudest, most dangerous voice in the room in Donald Trump. We don't know where Lindsey Graham stands because he doesn't stand for anything other than what Donald Trump tells him to do.
- [43:16]
Jen Psaki
We only have about a minute left, but I have been dying to hear about your thoughts on RFK Jr. You've called him your professional arch nemesis for decades. I love that description. I would love to see you question him in a hearing. Give our viewers a sense of what you're most concerned about regarding his leadership at HHS. And there's a lot to pick for.
- [43:35]
Dr. Annie Andrews
Yeah. So RFK Jr. Is nothing more than a grifter and conspiracy theorist who's been peddling and anti vaccine conspiracy theories for decades while simultaneously enriching himself. The day he was nominated to lead HHS was the day I decided seriously to get in this race. And I won't just be a yes vote on impeaching RFK Jr. I won't just be a yes vote on healthcare reform. I will lead those conversations because I have two decades of experience working on the front lines of America's broken healthcare system. And here in South Carolina, we experienced the direct result of RFK Jr. S failed leadership when we had a measles outbreak with nearly 1,000 cases of measles. So we need a pediatrician in the Senate. I will be the first one there. And I am so eager to beat Lindsey Graham in November. There's a lot of paths to take back the Senate. And the one that people aren't talking about enough is this path that runs right through South Carolina.
- [44:24]
Jen Psaki
Well, we're talking about it now. We're grateful that you could be here. And boy, I mean, healthcare in this country, and it's an issue that that is always on the top of people's lists. Having somebody who's an actual doctor in the Senate would be quite an addition. Dr. Annie Andrews, thank you so much for joining us tonight. I really appreciate it.
- [44:41]
Dr. Annie Andrews
Thank you for having me.
- [44:42]
Jen Psaki
Okay, we've got another full hour of live special coverage coming up. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.
- [44:52]
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