← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
Why indicting James Comey may come back to bite Trump
00:42:56
Former federal prosecutor Andrew Weissmann talks with Jen Psaki about the legal issues inherent in the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey, and the procedural steps that have been skipped in Donald Trump's rush to have his political enemies prosecuted. Weissmann points out that having a trial that gives Comey a platform to mount a defense may be a move Donald Trump comes to regret.
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- [00:03]
ExxonMobil Representative
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- [00:33]
Laci Mosley
I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors we got em? What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented cause representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Br and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess. Wherever you get your podcasts, as I.
- [01:08]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Think you are all following, we are continuing to follow very closely and we're continuing to learn more about the breaking news that former FBI Director James Comey has been indicted on two criminal counts by a grand jury in the Eastern District of Virginia. That of course, just happened in the last couple of hours. And we have a lot of people standing by who are going to help us break down the story and every detail of it and what it means and where we go from here. We have Congressman Jamie Raskin standing by. Andrew Weissman is going to join us. Virginia Senator Tim Kaine is going to join me as well. And I know all of them are going to have a lot to say because the news of Comey's indictment comes just days after President Trump said that the Attorney general should prosecute his political enemies. Now, as for the details of the charges, and some of you may have read this already, they are linked to testimony Comey gave virtually at a Senate Judiciary committee hearing on September 30, 2020, which is of course five years ago next Tuesday. That's an important detail. Now today Comey was charged with one count of making false statements and another count of obstruction. Both counts are related to allegations that Comey lied to Congress and those charges have a five year statute of limitations, hence the rush by Trump and his lackeys to get this done before the five year mark next Tuesday. So today's indictment appears to have come really just in under the wire. And that's kind of the point. That's all the Rush here. That's all the craziness of the last week. And we're gonna dig into all of that, and Donald Trump is super happy about that. Justice in America. One of the worst human beings this country has ever been exposed to is James Comey, the former corrupt head of the FBI. Today, he was indicted by a grand jury on two felony counts for various illegal and unlawful acts. He has been so bad for a country for so long and is now at the beginning of being held respons for his crimes against our nation. Make America great again. And I only read that because it's important to understand the absurdity of how he's approaching this and how much he has been saying the quiet part out loud about what wants to happen here for not just the last week, but long before that. Let me just back up for just a second, because we have no reason to believe Comey actually broke any laws here. And we have no reason to believe that prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia have any evidence that suggests he did. In fact, we have reason to believe the exact opposite. I mean, today's charges were brought by the brand new U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, Lindsey Halligan. Brand new as in a couple days, brand new. She was just sworn into the position on Monday, and that is because last week her predecessor was essentially pushed out. Trump forced the former U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, Eric Siebert, to resign last week after Siebert refused to bring charges against Trump's perceived enemies. New York Attorney General Letitia James and former FBI Director James Comey were at the very top of that list. Now, Siebert refused to bring those charges because after months of investigating both cases, he did not believe his office had found evidence to support them. And that's a decision you make before you move a case forward. So Trump fired him and replaced him with Lindsey Halligan. Now, Halligan is a clear Trump loyalist. She has never prosecuted a criminal case. And the only federal cases she has been involved with at all were Trump cases where she served as one of Trump's personal defense attorneys. Last night, MSNBC's Kendallaneum reported that after Halligan was sworn into her new position line, prosecutors at the office presented her with a memo suggesting that their case against Comey was too weak to pursue. Let's not move forward. That was the recommendation. That's what Eric Siebert thought, too. Two sources familiar with the case said specifically that the memo explained why prosecutors lacked sufficient evidence to convince a grand jury to indict Comey. So what happened tonight? How did a grand jury end up indicting former FBI Director James Comey after just a week ago prosecutors in charge of the case believed there was not enough there, there. And what does all that mean for the rest of the Trump enemies that Trump has sworn in, sworn he will prosecute? We're going to break that down with some great guests in just a second. But first, Comey himself has just responded to this late breaking news, and here's what he had to say. My family and I have known for years that there are costs to standing.
- [05:27]
Senator Tim Kaine
Up to Donald Trump, but we couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way.
- [05:32]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
We will not live on our knees.
- [05:34]
Senator Tim Kaine
And you shouldn't either. Somebody that I love dearly recently said that fear is the tool of a tyrant. And she's right. But I'm not afraid. And I hope you're not either.
- [05:48]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
I hope instead you are engaged, you.
- [05:51]
Senator Tim Kaine
Are paying attention, and you will vote like your beloved country depends upon it, which it does.
- [06:00]
MSNBC Senior White House Correspondent Vaughn Hilliard
My heart is broken for the Department.
- [06:02]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system and I'm innocent.
- [06:08]
Senator Tim Kaine
So let's have a trial and keep the faith.
- [06:13]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Remember, he was the FBI director not that long ago and he's been a long time, of course, target of Donald Trump's. Joining me now is MSNBC justice and intelligence correspondent who has been all over this story broke a big part of the news yesterday, Ken Delaney, also joining us as former FBI assistant and special Agent in charge Michael Feinberg. Ken, let me start with you. You broke the news yesterday. You've been breaking news since then, nearly at every moment. That and you broke the news yesterday that the indictment was imminent. And here we are. It happened tonight. What are you hearing from your sources in law enforcement right now? What's their reaction been to the news today?
- [06:50]
Ken Delaney, MSNBC Justice and Intelligence Correspondent
Shock and sadness, Jen. Even though you could see this coming, there was some hope that maybe grand jurors in the Eastern District of Virginia would resist and no, bill this case and refuse to indict. That didn't happen, obviously. I got one text from a longtime source saying this is a sad day for America. People are saying the Justice Department as we knew it is dead, is over. That may be a bit of hyperbole because, look, the Justice Department is still going to operate tomorrow and most of it's functioning as normal. People are going to go into work. They're going to investigate, prosecute criminals. But this thing that has happened here, a president essentially urging his Justice Department to bring charges against a political opponent and then Replacing a US Attorney who refused to do it with a more pliable U.S. attorney and then making that happen, that is a watershed. That is a line that we have crossed now in this country. And Republicans are going to say, Jen, well, wait a second, didn't the Biden administration do that? Didn't the FBI go after Donald Trump? That was completely different. That had no resemblance to what happened here with James Comey. Those were investigations based on the facts. And the law firm pursued by career FBI agents and career prosecutors, overseen by a special counsel, totally walled off by any of the political leadership in the Biden administration. Millions of Republicans do not believe this. And that is one of the reasons we are where we are. But it is a fact. And this, what happened with Comey is so much different. The testimony to the Senate at issue has been parsed over by inspectors general and others. And if there is evidence that that proves decisively that James Comey intentionally lied to Congress, I've never seen it. This is a bare bones indictment. So we don't know everything that they have. We don't know everything that they've presented to the grand jury. But the indictment on its face does not make the case that he lied. And so look, a lot of shock and sadness from many people inside and outside the Justice Department tonight, Jen.
- [08:49]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Yeah, I mean, to your point, the IG report made clear that they did not think that Comey had actually lied about this or had leaked information about the story that was being asked about. Let me ask you also, Ken, you're continuing. I know you're looking at your phone, you're getting information from sources. Please let us know if you learn anything or hear anything new. But there is a Comey family angle to all of this, too. And that's an important part of the story in the targeting and why one of the reasons it should be so horrifying here, I mean, James Comey's daughter, Maureen Comey, was fired from the Southern District of New York. And you have reporting tonight about another Comey family member, is that right? Am I getting that right?
- [09:27]
Ken Delaney, MSNBC Justice and Intelligence Correspondent
Yeah, that's right. James Comey's son in law, Troy Edwards, one of his sons in law, actually was a prosecutor in the National Security Division in this very office, the Eastern District of Virginia. And tonight he submitted his resignation, effective immediately, saying that he needed to do so to uphold his constitutional duty. This is a family of public servants, as you said. James Comey's daughter, longtime prosecutor in the Southern District, actually prosecuted the Jeffrey Epstein case and the case against Jalaine Maxwell his associate and was unceremoniously fired and is now suing the Justice Department, alleging that that firing was illegal. And now you have a son in law of James Comey who had been serving his country in this office, resigning over this. So real impact here, Jen.
- [10:13]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Michael, I remember talking to you shortly after you left the FBI. I mean, you were working in the FBI as of just a few months ago. How have you, I mean, we knew sort of this was coming. There was reporting, thanks to Ken and others. But what's your reaction to the news today? How have you been digesting and what have you heard from your colleagues who are still there?
- [10:34]
Michael Feinberg, Former FBI Assistant and Special Agent in Charge
There is a sense of shock that something like this can happen in a republic or a democracy that the president can use in a political arm of government to specifically target a political enemy whom, as you mentioned, previous inspectors generals, special counsels, internal reviews have all founded. Nothing wrong. But while there's shock, there's unfortunately not really surprise. The Department of Justice and its components like my former home, the FBI have really been on a downward path essentially since January 20th when their new leadership decided to explicitly politicize the organizations. Seeing them now go after a political enemy on very spurious and dubious charges without really offering a scintilla of evidence is not a good sign for the health of our democracy.
- [11:36]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Unquestionably not. And I think as you and I have talked about and you've talked with others about, I mean, people who are working in law enforcement, people who are working in the Department of Justice, they are not partisan people. They are doing it because they want to defend the rule of law and they want to keep people safe. One of the things Preet Bharo said to me last night that I kept thinking about is this idea that this could potentially prompt people to resign. I mean, that may be the case in the Department of Justice, may be the case in the Eastern District of Virginia. Do you hear that? Do you hear rumors of that or rumblings of that, of another wave of that from people you're talking to?
- [12:12]
Michael Feinberg, Former FBI Assistant and Special Agent in Charge
Very much so, across both DOJ and within the FBI. I have one friend whose last day is going to be next week. I have others who have already left. And to a person, everybody I know, if they're not going to resign immediately because there are like legitimate financial reasons and personal reasons and reasons of public service not to, they're still counting down the days until retirement. I don't know a single person who does not a little bit dread walking into their field office or headquarters right now. The organization has changed immensely in a mere eight months. And there's a lot of doubt about whether it's ever going to come back.
- [13:04]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
This should be such a chilling point for people. And the reason I want to ask both of you about it is because FBI field offices protect us, keep our community safe. They investigate all sorts of crimes. And that would be incredibly alarming if that is the reaction to what we're seeing here. Ken Delaney and Michael Feinberg, thank you both for being here. If you hear anything more, Ken, you know how to reach us. Come back. We're keeping everybody updated on everything. And thank you so much, Michael, again. I really appreciate it. Okay. Joining me now is Congressman Jamie Raskin. He is, of course, the ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee. You were one of the people I thought of today, and Chris and I were talking about this, just trying to put to words moments like this where, you know, we've called out so many moments that have been prompted by Donald Trump. This is an incredibly outrageous overreach, a case of overreach by this administration. But there are few people better at really putting moments in history like you are. So, like you do. So tell me how you're digesting this. What does this all mean?
- [14:08]
Congressman Jamie Raskin
Well, it's obviously an outrage. It's a scandal. And it does feel like a major lurch into further lawlessness in the country because it was Donald Trump's own hand picked U.S. attorney Mr. Siebert, who was originally charged with investigating James Comey and came back with the conclusion that there was not remotely enough evidence to prosecute for any offense. So under a system of a rule of law, that would have been the end of the story. But instead, President Trump decided that there wasn't a problem with his case, there was a problem with the prosecutor and decided to SACK this Republican U.S. attorney who demonstrated complete fidelity to the rule of law. Then he replaces him with a handpicked sycophant underling who never had had a day working as a prosecutor, who gets into office and what do you know, dusts off the exact indictment that had been rejected by the U.S. attorney and decides to indict James Comey for it. So the good news is I think there's very little chance he could ever be convicted because it's so clearly a case of vindictive and selective prosecution where all of the norms of the rule of law have been suspended. And the president didn't care about the facts, and the president didn't care about the law, cared about his emotions, and it was a vengeance campaign. So I think either the judge will have to throw it out, or a jury hearing it will see it and simply it cannot find that there is remotely enough evidence to convict. The bad news for us is that this is now part of the pattern. You know, they began by squashing an indictment against Mayor Adams in New York, a corruption indictment, simply because they had a political purpose for that. Then they had to basically force out Danielle Sassoon, the U.S. attorney for New York, and her basically her entire innermost staff, four or five lawyers, follow her out the door before they found somebody who would actually follow that order. And it's just case after case. I mean, it's the same thing going on now with the Epstein file, which they had promised to release. Then they deployed hundreds and hundreds of FBI agents to pour over the entire trove of documents to look for Donald Trump's name, to redact his name, to find pictures or video, whatever. And then they came back and basically said, there's nothing to see here. We're going to drop the whole matter, despite the fact that they had promised to release it and now are engaged in the most remarkable evasions in order to explain why they don't care anymore. But all of this bespeaks an incredible politicization of the Department of Justice and its conversion into an instrument of the political will of the president.
- [17:12]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
It is, as to your point, it is really not a story about Comey doing something wrong. The inspector general has already looked into that years ago. It's really about an abuse of power and an overreach of power. That's what this story is about. You could be the chairman of the Judiciary Committee next year if Democrats win back the House. This pattern of keeping U.S. attorneys in positions, political people who are loyal to Trump, people who worked for him in the past as his, you know, defense attorneys, and just the overall abuse like this. What could you. What do you want to do about it if you are chairman of the committee?
- [17:50]
Congressman Jamie Raskin
Well, right, they're not looking for qualified Republican US Attorneys. They're looking for unqualified Republican US Attorneys. That is, those people who demonstrate nothing other than personal fidelity to Donald Trump and people who don't have any sense of what the law is or what prosecutors are supposed to do. Remember, there's a constitutional oath there. There's a professional oath. There are rules of the legal professionall of which are being betrayed and ignored in this process. The Committee on the Judiciary's responsibility is to try to uphold the rule of law in America and to make sure that the courts are acting consistently with the Constitution and the rule of law, and that the administration is acting consistent with the rule of law and the Constitution. And right now, we've just entered a period of chaos and lawlessness, and we've got to restore respect for the rule of law. Now, the good news is that more than 400 cases have been brought against this reign of lawlessness in the federal district courts. And the opponents of Donald Trump, the plaintiffs who are trying to defend the rule of law, have won the 96% of the cases, and we're winning similar numbers in the appeals court. The problem is when you get up to the so called shadow docket, the emergency docket of the Supreme Court, where we're seeing a lot of reversals, but people do need to understand that the basic rule of law is holding, just like the juries are doing their jobs across the country. And people have to remember, just like going to vote is part of your civic duty, being on a jury and acting responsibly and in support of the rule of law is also part of your civic duty.
- [19:34]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
No question. What do you think? I mean, you've thought a lot about Trump's head and what's going on in his head and why he does things. Is this about he wants a Comey perp walk or what is this really about? He's not going to win?
- [19:46]
Congressman Jamie Raskin
Well, I think. I mean, I think that that message which went out to the world, which apparently was originally directed to Pam Bundy, was. Was revealing because for him, he sees it in completely personal terms. You know, he can't imagine that there are people, in fact, most everybody involved in the court system who are interested in neutral application of legal principles and laws and cases and so on. For him, it's all about blood feuds and personal vengeance and vindictive actions. So I do think he obviously has harbors no goodwill towards James Comey and his family. And he believes that being President of the United States gives him the right to do whatever he wants in order to go after James Comey, even if James Comey hasn't done anything wrong.
- [20:39]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you for breaking it down for us as always, and helping us understand the bigger picture here, which is, I think, incredibly important in moments like this. Thank you again for joining me. Okay. I've been waiting to talk to Andrew Weissman all night about this breaking news. Really, since the news broke, Andrew is standing by with his very first reaction to the indictment of James Comey. And he joins us next.
- [21:08]
ExxonMobil Representative
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- [21:35]
Laci Mosley
What'S poppin listeners. I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em? What about a career con man? We've got them too, guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess. Wherever you get your podcasts, Ondeck is.
- [22:13]
OnDeck Representative
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- [22:50]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
One thing has been very, very clear over the last week, and probably even before then. Donald Trump wasn't going to stop until he found someone who would go ahead with his plan to indict James Comey. And he found that someone in Lindsey Halligan. Now, if you did not know who Lindsey Halligan was before today, I don't really blame you. Maybe you'd heard her name, but maybe you don't know a lot about her. She was only just sworn in as the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia on Monday. Up until a week ago, she was the person Trump put in charge of reducing the amount of mentions of things like, say, slavery at the Smithsonian Museum in D.C. and this is how she defended that work. What I saw when I was going through the museums personally was an overemphasis on slavery, and I think there should be more of an overemphasis on how far we've come since slavery. Our country is a country of progress and it's the greatest country in the world and we should be able to take our kids, our students, through the Smithsonian and feel proud when we leave, there's a lot of history to our country, both positive and negative. But we need to keep moving forward. We can't just keep focusing on the negative. Okay, let me just note, that clip is from about a month ago. So it's not an ancient clip. About a month ago. And that is the person Donald Trump found to prosecute a case against the former director of the FBI, one he has been wanting to happen for a long time. Joining me now is Andrew Weissman, MSNBC legal analyst and former top prosecutor for the Justice Department. Andrew, you are the person I wanted to talk to most, and I think everybody watching wanted to hear what they thought. Given your history and your just incredible ability to explain things, I want to know your thoughts just in general given I think this moment really leaps over what we've seen in the past. How are you digesting it?
- [24:42]
Andrew Weissman, MSNBC Legal Analyst and Former DOJ Prosecutor
There's so much here. But let's start with we do not know, and the indictment doesn't tell us exactly what the specifics are as to why the government and now the grand jury believes that there's probable cause for these two charges. And so we really have to await that. In other words, let's see whether there are any facts to support what has happened here. And by the way, if there were the crime of making false statements to Congress or obstructing Congress, those are serious. And it doesn't matter that it's the former head of the FBI any more than it mattered when it was Donald Trump as the former president, who was indicted himself for obstructing justice not once, but twice in the Florida case case. So that's sort of to one side. But the real story, I agree with you, Jan, is about the process here. Let me just take you inside. What would normally happen, leave aside the whole part about that, that you now have a new U.S. attorney, you've covered that. But let me just tell you what a new U.S. attorney would want to do and what would be would happen in any major case, which is you would sit down and look at the evidence, you would meet with your prosecutors and understand their reservations. The is that the career people did not think that there was enough to go forward here. Remember, they have to be able to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt. You'd also want to afford the opportunity to Jim Comey and his legal team to hear their position. And only after that would you make a decision. And there's no evidence that that entire process happened in the New York Minute that Ms. Halligan has been in her position. So that's Just one more, I would say significant sort of due process foul that's going on here. And I think the proof in the pudding here is going to be in sort of looking forward is I think there's a really good chance that James Comey and his legal team will ask for a speedy trial. They have a right to a trial within 30 days of this of today, and they could ask for a speedy trial. I did note that Jim Comey has already been on Instagram and said, let's have a trial. And to me, that suggests that if they really think that there is no there there, we don't know the answer to that. But if that's, they presumably do. We could see in 30 days all of this blowing up in Donald Trump's face and everything that he thinks is a victory now is going to really show that this is the emperor has no clothes, that this is the abuse that it appears to be there.
- [27:33]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
I should note, I'm not a lawyer. I've learned from all of you, but there is a tremendous leap from an indictment to a conviction. Just I think everybody watching knows that. Last night I was talking with Preparer. We knew even less last night, so I should just note that. And we were talking about, though, kind of the case that his lawyers could make, to your point. And he was kind of laid out the notion that Comey could allege, potentially depending, selective and vindictive prosecution. What would that entail? What do you think of that? And if they made that argument, what would that entail?
- [28:06]
Andrew Weissman, MSNBC Legal Analyst and Former DOJ Prosecutor
So those are very hard arguments to make. But what I would say is if it's ever going to work for vindictive prosecution, this looks like it. And so vindictive prosecution is where you are looking for someone being singled out for impermissible reasons. And so just because you did your job, but just because you referred the president or you opened an investigation into the president, those are not legitimate reasons to have a sort of tit for tat. And so that kind of claim, again, could really blow up in Donald Trump's face. Imagine if that motion, I think, will certainly be made. Imagine the judge in this case who's a very, very experience judge, who's been on the bench either as a magistrate or a district judge appointed by President Obama to the district court holding a hearing on this. Imagine what that would look like where Jim Comey gets to put witnesses on. This is the kind of thing where, you know, I don't know that the White House really thought through sort of giving James Comey this forum to be heard, where he is going to be able to potentially call witnesses and, and have a trial. And as I said, I really think this is one where it's, this is such a horrendous moment for the rule of law for the Department of Justice, for the country writ large. But I do think that there is the potential for a little like we saw with Mr. Kimmel, that this, Kimmel is that we could see a reversal here where in, you know, matter of weeks where we see sort of real pushback by the judge, by a jury in terms of, at a hearing, in terms of what happens here. So as, as bad as tonight is in terms of the rule of law in America and sort of going down the road of a sort of Nixonian, Hoover type use of the legal system, this is one where I do have sort of cautious optimism in terms if there really is no there, that the system will hold.
- [30:26]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
I think that's I am happy to hear that. I think a lot of people watching are happy to hear that in 30 days would be a very quick turnaround or would feel like a quick turnaround. Let me ask you, since I have you, about a couple things. We're trying to understand all the different details that have been reported at and whether it's significant or not. And you can tell us. So we know that Halligan has never prosecuted a criminal case of any kind before. And according to NBC, she filed the multiple charging documents in the same case, which she told the judge, when the judge asked her about them, she had not seen her signature was on them. Is that a normal thing that could happen? Is that a sign of inexperience or how do you read that?
- [31:03]
Andrew Weissman, MSNBC Legal Analyst and Former DOJ Prosecutor
Well, in order to sign the indictment, the U.S. attorney, the sitting U.S. attorney has to sign. And presumably she's not saying that she didn't see the document she signed, but a lot of times there are people who are lower level who sign on behalf of the U.S. attorney. So I wouldn't take there's so many things to be upset about. That's not the one that I would get really upset about.
- [31:32]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
That's important. That's why we ask you these sorts of questions. Andrew Weissman, we are covering this very closely. I'm so grateful for you for staying up with us and helping people understand what to follow, what to pay attention to and whatnot. Thank you again.
- [31:45]
Andrew Weissman, MSNBC Legal Analyst and Former DOJ Prosecutor
My pleasure.
- [31:46]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Okay. Virginia Senator Tim Kaine is standing by. He put out a blistering statement about what happened in his home state earlier tonight. Few people have been following this closer than he has I talked to him about it just last Friday. He joins our breaking news coverage when we come back.
- [32:07]
ExxonMobil Representative
Can lighter structures really be stronger? Yes, they can. ExxonMobil is helping advance American industrial innovation with Proxima Systems enabling a lighter and stronger alternative to traditional rebar while lowering greenhouse gas emissions to help build a more efficient construction industry with sustainability in mind. Exxon Mobil let's deliver.
- [32:34]
Laci Mosley
What'S poppin listeners. I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud, all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too, guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcast.
- [33:12]
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- [33:46]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Following today's indictment of former FBI Director James Comey by Donald Trump's Justice Department, Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia put out this I've had my differences with James Comey in the past, but I can spot trumped up charges a mile away. Trump said he'd go after him, then fired a superb ethical prosecutor when he refused to bring frivolous charges against those whom Trump perceived to be his enemies. Now he has installed yet another one of his personal lawyers as the interim U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia, this one a Florida insurance lawyer with no prosecutorial experience and no connection to Virginia. To do his bidding, the rule of law must prevail. Joining me now is Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia. Senator, we spoke about this just last Friday after Eric Siebert was pushed out. You said at the time that you were worried about who he would be replaced with. You were hopeful, but you expressed concern about that, and now here we are A week later, I just read some of your fiery statement, but tell us more about how you're digesting this and what you think people should understand about this moment.
- [34:53]
Senator Tim Kaine
Well, Donald Trump has just installed a political hack to do his bidding. Since we talked. Jan, last week, Trump tweeted out, essentially a challenge slash threat to Pam Bondi, saying, you're not going after my political enemies enough. I think that was supposed to be a private message, and it went out to tens of millions of people. And he deleted it because it's the kind of thing that gets cases thrown out of court for malicious prosecution. So he put in a loyalist as interim eastern district Virginia U.S. attorney who has no Virginia experience, who has no prosecutorial experience, and clearly he's told her, you've got to go after my enemies. But I'll raise it up one level. If you've looked at our Attorney General Pam Bondi's statement tonight, her statement on the indictment says, you know, we've indicted for the following reasons, and then the last line is, we will follow the facts in this case. Did Pam Bondi go to law school? You follow the facts before you indict someone for a crime. You do not indict them and say, well, now we got to go look for some facts. Her statement shows this thing is a complete political hatchet job. And I think it's going to blow up in the Trump administration's face because having practiced law in the Eastern District of Virginia for 17 years, I don't see any of the judges in this district dignifying this political persecution in any way.
- [36:36]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Andrew. I was just talking to Andrew Weissman about how Comey and Comey also did it, posted on Instagram and said, like, let's go to trial. Andrew said he could have a trial within 30 days, or that's his right, as I understand it. You can correct me if I'm wrong there. What does that look like? You said the rule of law should prevail. It doesn't feel like they have much of a case here that they've outlined. What does it look like if the rule of law prevails here?
- [37:01]
Senator Tim Kaine
Well, it looks like there's, you know, motions to dismiss the case for malicious prosecution. There may. May be some motion to dismiss it on the grounds that the U.S. attorney who is pursuing this is not lawfully in place. There's a statute that says when there's a vacancy, the DOJ can put an interim prosecutor in for 120 days. That 120 days had passed, and after 120 days, only the district court judges in a district can approve somebody to be the U.S. attorney. An article in the National Review, hardly a liberal publication, earlier this week said you can't put a new interim in to do your bidding once the 120 day period has passed. So I think the Comey attorneys have an awful lot of grounds to get this thing thrown out. Look, I've had major differences in the past with Jim Comey. Don't want to really get into, but the guy's entitled to the rule of law, he's entitled to fairness. He's entitled not to be victimized by a clearly trumped up political persecution. And so I'm going to do everything I can as the senator for this state to make sure that Donald Trump doesn't pervert our two U.S. attorney's offices who have had a high standard for integrity for many, many decades, that he doesn't pervert them and turn them into engines of political persecution.
- [38:33]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
You may not say it. I'll say it. There may have been a Vice President Tim Kaine, and not a Vice President Mike Pence, had it not been for James Comey. I won't push you to talk more about that, but let me ask you about Pam Bondi. I mean, there was reports that she did not think there was enough evidence to move forward here. Obviously, we know that that led to Eric Siebert being pushed out. That the consensus of the prosecutorial memo, it seems that was given to Lindsey Halligan. Should there be consequences? Could there be consequences for Pam Bondi? I mean, she went against her own judgment.
- [39:11]
Senator Tim Kaine
Well, I will tell you, I think Pam Bondi did a very important psychological reveal in the statement that she put out tonight. If she felt that there was rock solid evidence to indict Jim Comey, she wouldn't have finished her official statement with the line, we will follow the facts in this case. You know, that's what you do if you're like an investigating officer or even a prosecutor to decide whether to indict somebody. You don't indict somebody and then say, well, now we got to figure out what the facts tell us. She has shown her whole card and kind of revealed that she has deep ambivalence about what Trump is ordering her to do. She's genuflecting to the boss rather than showing the independence that Americans have come to expect from an attorney general.
- [40:00]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
I used to walk to the other side of the hallway when the Attorney General came to the White House. That was my experience.
- [40:06]
Senator Tim Kaine
That was no indication of your guilty conscience.
- [40:08]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
I'M sure I was just independent. You know, one of the concerns that has been expressed, and you may have expressed this when we spoke too, is just they're excellent prosecutors and attorneys who work in the Eastern District of Virginia. They do incredibly important work. It's one of the most important offices of its kind in the country. But the person who's now leading their office just went against their recommendations. Do you have concern that people maywe already saw that one prosecutor, Comey's son in law, resigned? Do you have concerns that some of these talented, qualified prosecutors who are doing important work there may walk out the door?
- [40:47]
Senator Tim Kaine
I'm deeply worried about it, Jen. I have worked with this office. I was a city councilman and mayor in Richmond in the 1990s when Richmond had a horrible homicide problem. And we worked hand in glove with the U.S. attorney in the Eastern District, including Jim Comey, who was in the office at the time to try to come up with strategies to bring down our homicide rate. This district and the Western District of Virginia have stellar reputations for integrity. Donald Trump nominated people for both of these positions after interviewing them and vetting them. And he not only nominated them, but he even appointed them to be interim U.S. attorneys, and he's now fired both of them. You and I are talking about the Eastern District tonight. He also fired the U.S. attorney in the Western Virginia. Get this. A former Republican state legislator and prosecutor who became the Republican speaker of the Virginia House of Delegates, a pro Trump Republican. But Donald Trump and the DOJ tried to push him around to demote people in the office who had served under multiple presidents. And he said, I'm not doing it. So he's out the door. Even though Trump nominated him and appointed him to be the interim, Eric Siebert is out the door. Listen, in Virginia, we say Virginia is for lovers. I also say Virginia is for people who have backbone. We're not gonna get pushed around and we're not letting Donald Trump push the federal prosecutors around so he can put in a loyalist and a hack if he wants to. But I don't think Virginians are going to accept it, and I don't think our courts are going to accept it.
- [42:29]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Let's hope not. As a Virginian myself, I do like that motto. We need some T shirts. Senator, thank you so much. I don't think there's anyone who knows more about this and the Eastern District of Virginia than you who's in the Senate. And I really appreciate you joining me.
- [42:42]
Senator Tim Kaine
Glad to be with you, Jen. Thanks.
- [42:44]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Okay, Coming up on the same day James Comey was indicted, we learned a whole lot about who might be next. It's certainly not the end. We'll talk about it when we come back. On the same night that Donald Trump's handpicked federal prosecutor in Virginia has indicted one of his top perceived political enemies, we have learned of even more prosecutions Trump wants against even more people he doesn't like.
- [43:13]
Senator Tim Kaine
And we're going to look into Soros because I think it's a RICO case against him. I've been speaking to the Attorney General.
- [43:18]
Congressman Jamie Raskin
About bringing RICO against some of the.
- [43:20]
Senator Tim Kaine
People that you've been reading about that have been putting up millions and millions.
- [43:24]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Of dollars for agitation. Now, today, the New York Times reported that Trump's Justice Department has started to actually push prosecutors to investigate Soros. Quote, a senior Justice Department official has instructed more than a half dozen U.S. attorney's offices to draft plans to investigate a group funded by George Soros. The official's directive, a copy of which was viewed by the New York Times, goes as far as to list possible charges prosecutors could file. Possible charges include racketeering, arson, wire fraud, and material support for terrorism. And the prosecutions of even more Trump enemies may already be underway. A report from Reuters indicates that senior DOJ officials may also be looking to charge former National Security Adviser John Bolton a month after the FBI conducted a raid on his home. CNN reports that some of the Department of Justice's political leadership see a potential bolt in charge as a way to placate the President, which is quite a telling description. Joining me now is MSNBC senior White House correspondent Vaughn Hilliard. Vaughn, obviously a lot happened today. I mean, Comey was indicted. There was reporting about targeting the Soros Foundation. I just mentioned reporting about a possible charge against John Bolton. It feels very much like this is just the beginning. And there is, there's, there feels outside like there's an effort to push a lot of this forward quite quickly. But what is your sense and what are you hearing from your sources in the White House?
- [44:44]
MSNBC Senior White House Correspondent Vaughn Hilliard
Right, and this is where the question here of where all of this would end would ultimately go. Because what was made clear by the President of the United States is that in this administration, he was going to nominate people into the doj, into the FBI, who were willing to carry out and be loyal to his desires. And that is where we saw very clearly articulated by the President over the last years. For instance, when it comes to James Comey, who depicted him in social media posts and orange jumpsuits. Letitia James, Adam Schiff, each of these individuals here. And there was a question coming into this administration, we reported back one year ago in September of 2024, the way in which the Trump administration 2.0 could potentially even try to use acting U.S. attorneys, which is exactly what happened with Lindsey Halligan, because they carry and hold the same power that a U.S. attorney confirmed by the U.S. senate. That could be a prolonged process to get to that confirmation point, but they hold the exact same powers that a confirmed U.S. attorney has. And so as we saw with the removal of the U.S. attorney on Friday and with Lindsey Halligan, who we should note at been most recently working on removing history at the Smithsonian, that did not put the United States in the greatest image. He has effectively empowered an individual with the power of a U.S. attorney to move forward with that. We know the Letitia James investigation continues in the Eastern District of Virginia. The Adam Schiff investigation continues on in Maryland here. And so there's a real question coming out of this. Exactly where does all of this in the case of George Soros, right. We know that the vice president himself had suggested trying to remove the tax exempt status of the Open Society Foundations, the network that was created by George Soros here. But now you are seeing an actual activity here in an attempt to investigate George Soros. These were individuals long targeted by the president in political terms, right. In 2018, George Soros name was said by Donald Trump, Trump more than just about any candidates. But now the question here is on the legal front, will he find US Attorneys or potential acting US Attorneys that can actually go forward and try to seek indictments or some other court of criminal action of similar capacity?
- [47:00]
MSNBC Host (likely Jen Psaki)
Yvonne Hilliard, you know all the things. As always, thank you so much for joining us tonight. We'll be right back. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Bluesky, Instagram and TikTok.
- [47:24]
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