The Razzle Dazzle of 'Chicago'!

Summary

The Razzle Dazzle of 'Chicago'!

The Broadway Show: Uncut • Host: Tamsen Fadal • Airdate: November 21, 2025

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Overview

This episode of “The Broadway Show: Uncut” is a deep dive into the legacy, artistry, and timeless appeal of Chicago, Broadway’s longest-running American musical, now celebrating 29 years. Host Tamsen Fadal brings listeners backstage and into the rehearsal room, featuring candid conversations with the show’s dance captain, its current Velma Kelly (Sophie Carmen Jones), and the acclaimed script adapter David Thompson. Together, they explore the show’s enduring power, the specifics of Fosse style, the evolving company, and the satirical relevance that keeps Chicago a beloved fixture on Broadway.

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Key Discussion Segments & Insights

1. Behind the Curtain: Preparing for the Stage

[00:04–09:48] Tamsen Fadal & Dance Captain David Bushman

• Training Non-Traditional Cast Members

  • Even one-night guest performers go through rigorous preparation. Rehearsals are a blend: half in the studio (with mirrors for visual learning), half on the actual stage to acclimate to the space. (01:54)
  • Dancers learn choreography first without music to “set up the structure,” then layer in music and counts. (02:23)
  • Quote: “We’re not always doing everything at the same time. Learn the dance, learn the music, and then put it together.” — David Bushman (02:29)

• Why ‘Chicago’ Endures

  • The only show on Broadway still performing pure Fosse style—“That legacy is continuing.” (02:58)
  • Minimalist staging—no lavish scenery, just storytelling and vaudeville form.
  • Its message about celebrity, media, and justice remains perennially relevant. (02:58)
  • Quote: “It’s a really great, still timeless satire… It’s also Kander and Ebb’s music. It doesn’t get any better than that.” — David Bushman (02:58)

• Company Dynamics & ‘Fosse’ Demystified

  • Each cast member brings unique strengths—no “cookie cutter” performances. (01:12)
  • High turnover, especially in lead roles, brings fresh energy—"personalities constantly finding their way."
  • Quote: “Really, Fosse is a lot about isolation… elbows, wrists, hands… all this wonderful articulation through the joints and isolation. It’s pulled in and contained movement...” — David Bushman (05:31)
  • The company supports newcomers and swings (backups) with “shove with love”—a spirit of gentle collaboration. (07:12)

• The Energy of Live Performance

  • The intimate Ambassador Theatre (capacity 1,100) means every performer’s work is visible and crucial—the essence of a “triple-threat” show. (08:02)
  • Audience reactions differ nightly, especially with international crowds, but the cast feeds off their energy. (08:44)
  • Quote: “It is a show that has been set all over the world… There’s a reason it’s still going. It’s just so relevant.” — David Bushman (09:11)

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2. Star Turn: Sophie Carmen Jones, Broadway’s Velma Kelly

[10:00–27:00] Interviewed by Paul Wontorek

• Origins & Aspirations

  • Sophie was inspired by seeing Catherine Zeta-Jones in the Chicago film at age 11—her Welsh roots created a personal connection. (11:15)
  • Quote: “Because she was from where I was from, I was like, well, that means I can do it too.” — Sophie Carmen Jones (11:00)

• Journey to Broadway

  • First played Velma on the UK tour at 24, having held out for a leading role after turning down an understudy offer. (14:52)
  • Performed Chicago in Japan before making her Broadway debut, auditioning anew for the American production despite past experience. (16:04)
  • Quote: “I want to play those roles. It was a year-long tour, so I thought, no, I’ll stick to my guns and say how I really feel…” — Sophie Carmen Jones (15:02)

• Company Culture & Adaptability

  • Warm, veteran ensemble members make new arrivals feel “immediately very comfortable,” balancing fresh nerves with routine calm. (17:22)
  • Principal roles—especially Roxie and Velma—constantly rotate, keeping performances vibrant and relationships dynamic. (22:35)
    • Quote: “It felt like a whole new show… The whole show felt buzzy.” — Sophie Carmen Jones, on playing opposite a new Roxie (22:35)

• The Fosse Challenge

  • Fosse choreography demands precision, isolation, and discipline—“tilt of the wrist… there’s so much discipline… there’s beauty in that.” (21:04)
  • Her love for dance was rekindled in Moulin Rouge!, but Chicago’s “All That Jazz” still brings nightly excitement. (20:24)
  • Quote: “Fosse choreography actually is [iconic]… it is an honor to do it every night.” — Sophie Carmen Jones (20:24)

• Portraying Velma

  • The show opens with Velma as a vaudeville narrator, distinct from her main “in-story” character.
  • Quote: “At the top of the show, there’s kind of a thought that Velma isn’t being Velma… but just like a Pippin sort of vaudeville star moment.” — Sophie Carmen Jones (25:48)

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3. Building ‘Chicago’: A Conversation with Script Adapter David Thompson

[27:11–36:56] Interviewed by Beth Stevens

• Adapting for Revivals: Essence over Excess

  • The 1996 Encores! revival began as a concert—emphasizing streamlined storytelling, minimal props, and no scenery. (27:16)
  • Creative aim: Condense dialogue and action—“if a speech was in three sentences… could you do it in one word?” (32:05)

• Vaudeville Structure’s Lasting Power

  • Vaudeville roots enable rapid, stylish scene shifts and musical numbers, influencing everything from Saturday Night Live to Chicago’s satirical tone. (29:16)
  • Quote: “It provided a point of view for the music…and it allows you to say, and now, ladies and gentlemen, we’re going to do a tap dance… And that’s what became the engine to tell that story.” — David Thompson (29:16)

• Chicago and America’s Celebrity Obsession

  • The story’s heart: What people will do for fame and public attention hasn’t changed since the 1920s. (30:34)
  • The 1996 revival landed amid the O.J. Simpson trial and the rise of reality TV, making its satire especially sharp. (34:46)
  • Quote: “That idea of people…those stories that we follow…has become sort of a national diet. And they’re…not going away.” — David Thompson (35:18)

• Collaboration and Legacy

  • Partnership with Kander and Ebb emphasized trust, openness, and collaborative ‘idea mixing.’ (33:45)
  • Quote: “You throw it into the mix. Everything is safe…what might have started off as a crazy idea becomes something that’s gold.” — David Thompson (33:45)

• Enduring Relevance

  • Sensational crime and stardom narratives remain compelling, as seen in headlines from O.J. to Stormy Daniels. (36:21)
  • Memorable Lyric: “And that’s because we didn’t get enough love in our childhood.” (36:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fosse Style (David Bushman, 05:31):
  “Fosse is a lot about isolation…elbows, wrists, hands… You don’t want to show the work, but you want to know that there’s all that work happening underneath.”

• Sophie Carmen Jones on Dream Fulfillment (11:00):
  “That means I can do it too... And from that moment, it was my dream. And now I’m playing the role on Broadway. It is bonkers.”

• David Thompson on Celebrity Obsession (34:46):
  “When the show opened in 96… it was right at the time that O.J. Simpson trial was happening... It was the beginning of what would become the idea of reality TV.”

• Sophie Carmen Jones on Opening the Show (20:24):
  “There is not a day when I come out of that trap door, open the show, Epic entrance… Never, every night, I’m like, oh my god, as if I get to do this literally.”

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Important Timestamps

• Dance Captain David Bushman on company process: 01:12–09:48
• Sophie Carmen Jones’ journey to Velma Kelly: 10:00–24:02
• Fosse’s influence and Velma’s portrayal: 19:51–26:45
• David Thompson on adaptation and vaudeville: 27:11–36:56

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Conclusion

Chicago’s magic lies in its timeless critique of celebrity culture, minimalist aesthetic, and enduring Fosse choreography. This episode captures the camaraderie backstage, the precision required of its artists, and the creative decisions that keep the show vibrant and provocative nearly three decades on. For anyone interested in Broadway’s heartbeat, the evolution of a classic, and the artistry behind the razzle dazzle, this is a must-listen.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Broadway show Uncut. I'm Tamsen Fadal and this episode of the pod is all about Chicago. Now celebrating 29 years on Broadway. It is the longest running American musical in history. With iconic music by John Kander, lyrics by Fred Ebb, and a book by Ebb and Bob Fosse. I actually had the chance to make a one night guest appearance on stage. I know, right? And you might not even realize this, even in a small part, just for one night. It takes a lot of work to get ready. I learned and performed the opening monologue, plus headed to the rehearsal room to learn some of the iconic dance steps. More on that in just a sec. Coming up in just a few. Paul Wontorek caught up with Broadway's Velma Kelly. The incredible actress and dancer Sophie Carmen Jones. Plus Beth Stevens chats with the man who adapted and crafted the musical script, David Thompson. But first, when I was in the rehearsal room and on stage at the Ambassador, I chatted with dance captain David Bushman.

[B]

You do this all the time to get different people ready for these roles.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And you know what, sometimes they, they come with, you know, different baggage, different, you know, sort of training so that I want to tap into what they can do. Ann Reinking did the same thing. She found out who that person was, what were their strengths and played on those. Instead of being a cookie cutter, this is what that person does. So it's, it's nice to work with people, get to know who they are, how they feel in their bodies, how they connect with movement and music. So, yeah, this is a treat.

[B]

What's real exciting, I've interviewed a couple of the stars, obviously that you have trained and done the training outside of. I just never understood that you did it off the stage in a studio like this. And then they come on and it might be one or two times with the rest of the cast. Is that right?

[D]

We do sort of a put in with their people, but it's, we do like, I would say half and half on stage so that people can really get used to the space and then be in a mirror. Because mirror is, is, you know, foundational in terms of how do you, you get to see yourself and you get to see the other person, like, so they get to see what I'm doing and learn both visually and in their, on their own bodies, see what they're doing so that we know that we're in the same world.

[B]

Because you, because we did it without music. First.

[D]

First without music, nothing. Just like set up the structure. Yep.

[B]

And Then we have the music, and Phil counts it out.

[D]

It's the same way that we work marrying dance with their songs because, you know, you're doing it all at the same time. So we're not always doing everything at the same time. Learn the dance, learn the music, and then put it together.

[B]

It is my. Probably my favorite show, and it's always been. And it's lasted this long because it is timeless in the music, in the message, in the moves. What is it about Chicago that just continues and I think will resonate for another 29 years?

[D]

I mean, I think that, first of all, it's the only show that's doing Fosse style on Broadway. And it's. That's, you know, there have been shows that have come in, but it's nice to know that that legacy is continuing. But also, like you said, the show's still relevant. You know, the idea of that, you know, celebrity and all of that and how, you know, they get the best lawyer. And so there's a. It's a really great, still timeless satire on that. But it's also Kander and Ebb's music. It doesn't get any better than that.

[B]

It doesn't get any better.

[D]

So you have all these elements that just have. And it's vaudeville. Like, even the form of it, that's like an original form, so that we're still using that form in the show. We're not all, you know, this is not a big production full of a ton of scenery flying. It's the people we're out there, and it's the show and it's the storytelling in a very, you know, minimalist way that still works. People still are thinking this is the best show they've ever seen.

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

And every time you see it, it's a little bit different. It's a little bit. The movie.

[D]

Well, your casting changes, so you've got personalities. They're constantly finding their way through with somebody else. If you're on stage and you're with that person in a scene, it's not going to be the same that you did with somebody else.

[B]

No, no.

[D]

And it's exciting.

[B]

It really, It's. It's amazing to watch. And so talk about some of the people that have come through that you have trained and moved through this because you've got all sorts of Roxies and.

[D]

You know, and Billy's and Billy and Mamas. You know, those are roles that often we, you know, that the producers bring in celebrities in because these people are first of all, they're. They're from the world that people, you know, that don't necessarily do theater, and they're like, oh, what is this person gonna do in the role? And it's fascinating to see them come in and. And first of all, learn. Roxy's learning how to dance and sing and do, you know, some of the. The acting work? You know, you have to believe them.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

So you get somebody like, you know, I put in Brandy. Brandy was one of the first. Norwood was one of the first Roxies. I. And she'd come in and she'd be like, Coming from a kickboxing class, she wanted to know, what is it that I have to do physically. But they're all different. They all bring their own baggage and their own take. And you have Jennifer Nettles come in. So it has run the gamut. I've had the pleasure of putting a lot of people in the show and featuring them. Even the Billies.

[B]

You had a lot of Billies too, right?

[D]

Yeah. So it's the gift that keeps giving, really. For me, I never know what I'm going to have, you know, coming day to day.

[E]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Then you end up with me in the studio. You're like, I don't know.

[D]

How amazing is that? Yes.

[B]

You're kind. If someone doesn't know Fosse. What is Fosse? Like, describe it into words, you know.

[D]

Really, Fosse is a lot about isolation, and so he was heavily influenced by Jack Cole. But there's this wonderful use of the floor. You know, you'll see a lot of the times we're down, but also elbows, wrists, hands. You know, there's all this wonderful articulation through the. The joints and isolation. So we're not necessarily this huge dancing. It's pulled in and contained movement. People think. They come in for an audition and they think, oh, this is easy.

[E]

It's just.

[D]

And they're like, oh, this is hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Because that work. Yeah. And you don't want to show the work, but you want to know that there's all that work happening underneath.

[B]

You feel it?

[D]

You do. Like you did with that hand.

[B]

Yes, with that hand. It's going everywhere. All right, so now we're officially inside the theater on the stage. This feels different. It feels different.

[D]

I bet it does. It's nice to be in the actual space.

[B]

It does. There's steps too well.

[D]

There's a lot for you to deal with here, but you're handling it beautifully. You're navigating all of those levels I love your musicality. I like how you're hearing. You're hearing, you know, literally every phrase that we're doing, linking it to the next one. That's not an easy thing to do.

[B]

Thank you. That feels good.

[D]

How is it feeling?

[B]

It feels good. It actually feels better being in the space now. Now I feel, like, safe. Like I'm at home. Like, it. I know this is the. You know, this is the thing.

[D]

It is the same for us.

[B]

I'm just still so amazed with, like, bring people into this space and do it and ever, like, kindly, gently lead them in through all this, whether they have experience or no experience or, you know.

[D]

You know, it's. First of all, I love this cast. I love the way we work together. It really is a team in this space. You were talking about that with Evan. It's so small. We have to be very aware of each other on the stage, especially when we're a full company on the stage. But, you know, what we like to do is when somebody new comes in, you know, or if a swing is on for a track they haven't done in a while, shove with love, you know, just, you know, so there is this sense of, we're gonna work together, we're gonna take care of you, and. Yeah.

[B]

And you have swings that come in. So if somebody, God forbid, gets hurt or sick.

[D]

Vacation. Swings come in.

[B]

Vacation.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So they know that part. Is that right?

[D]

Yeah. And then they learn changes, because sometimes little changes happen while they've been away, and then we have to bring on that. So it's great. It never gets boring.

[B]

We were talking earlier about there's just no other show like this. I mean, I really do believe that in my heart. Like, it just. There's no other show like it.

[D]

There's no other show for actors, you know, triple threat, you know, performers like Chicago. It is us. There's, you know, you're seeing us in the show. We're not hidden by anything. So we are having to bring the essence of Fosse and this great storytelling into. For 1100 people, it's an intimate house, actually.

[B]

Is it 1100?

[D]

It's 1100. But it is not, you know, for Broadway, you know, theaters, it's not huge.

[B]

Right, right. For me, it's gonna be huge. For me, it'll be huge.

[D]

But you're used to big audiences.

[B]

Well, this feels big. And they're live, you know, different. Live is different. Live is always different.

[D]

And live can be fun. Things can happen, and you have to.

[B]

Just deal with it, go with it. Do you feel that energy from the audience all the time, coming off of the audience? Does that help feed the show? It does every night.

[D]

Yeah. You know, and different. There are different types of audiences. Sometimes we have an audience full of a lot of international people, and they don't react in the same way.

[B]

Oh, I know.

[D]

But it's okay because we are still telling our story. And then you realize at the end of the show, they might not have reacted to all the lines, but they love the show and they express that at the very end.

[B]

That's great.

[D]

It's still. It is a show that has been set all over the world, many, many international productions. There's a reason it's still going. It's just so relevant. And it's the only Fosse show still going. It's the only. So really showcasing that work that Annie kept alive.

[B]

That's what I love. I mean, talk about the history of that, because I think that that's so important, and I don't know that everyone knows that immediately when they come in here, but that is keeping something alive for a very long time.

[D]

The legacy is real. We're going on 29 years, so in a little over a year, we're gonna be at our 30th. And, I mean, I think that's probably gonna be a pretty big celebration for us.

[B]

I will be here for it to celebrate alongside you.

[D]

That would be amazing.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

Now here's Paul Wontorek's chat with Broadway's Velma Kelly. Sophie Carmen Jones.

[F]

Here we are with Broadway's Velma Kelly. Iconic. I mean, like, isn't that a cool thing to get to say?

[E]

It's a dream come true, truly.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

Yeah.

[F]

Where did the Velma Kelly. Did it come from the movie? Did you see the movie? Yeah. Tell me about that.

[E]

Yes. So I was 11 years old. I feel like I've told this story so much. Everyone in my life is like, you're obsessed with Catherine Zeta Jones. But I am. It's true. So I went and saw the movie when I was 11 years old in Swansea in Wales, where I'm from. My mum took me to the cinema, and my mum, when I watched the movie, I was, like, obsessed. Obviously. I was. I was dancing loads at that time, and it was just. The movie is incredible. And I was, like, obsessed with it. And my mom said, you do know who. Who that is, don't you? The girl who played Valma Kelly. I was like, no, she's like, that's Catherine Zeta Jones. She's Welsh. You know, she's from where we're from. And that was it. Because she was from where I was from. I was like, well, that means I can do it too. And from that moment, it was my dream. And now I'm playing the role on Broadway. It is bonkers. I still don't believe it.

[F]

Have you met her yet?

[E]

No, and I don't think I can. I think I would just.

[C]

Yeah.

[F]

What would that moment look like?

[E]

Oh, I think I'd really embarrass myself and either just become like a giggly little girl and not think of anything cool to say or just be like, yeah, really awkwardly silent.

[F]

And she started as a dancer on the West End.

[E]

Yes.

[F]

Yeah. A lot of people don't realize that.

[E]

Yeah. There's like a legendary story with her, isn't there? That she was in 42nd street as an understudy and got to play the role one night because the principal must have been sick or something. And I think the producers were in, I don't know. But there's like, story. Yeah, one of those.

[F]

Yeah, I love it. So now you are following in her footsteps. But she's never done this on Broadway.

[E]

No, she hasn't.

[F]

No, she hasn't.

[E]

She should come in and be Mama. She should be Mama Morton. But we're saying it. We're saying it.

[D]

All right.

[F]

Just putting it out there.

[E]

Yeah, let's make it happen. Imagine if I'm Velma to her mama. That would be epic.

[F]

What is it like playing this woman? This is a really fun character. I mean, I'm sure even when you walk down the wall to go into the theater, you get to see all the actresses who played Velma Kelly. I mean, it's wild to be on that list.

[E]

I'm sure it's crazy.

[F]

They put your name up there, right?

[E]

Uh huh.

[F]

You made it on the wall.

[E]

That wall is amazing, isn't it? Every single person that's played every single role, it's. Yeah. It does remind you the legacy of the show. When you're walking down towards stage door, you're like, wow. Every day it's a nice little reminder of like, the people that have come before you.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

Who came before you and played those roles. It's. It's a lot.

[F]

It's a lot of years on Broadway. I mean. Yes.

[E]

Coming up to the 29th.

[F]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[E]

Which is why we're doing this, isn't it?

[F]

Yeah, sure. That's what we're doing.

[E]

Yeah.

[F]

So talk about dance. Talk about what dance means in your life. When did you discover dance.

[E]

So I started dancing really young, and then I think I gave it up. I think I told my mum when I was, like, seven or eight years old, I don't want to do it anymore. Like, so young, because I was copying my brother and he was doing judo and karate and stuff like that. I was like, can I do judo instead? So mum was like, yeah, sure. And then I think I can't remember what age I asked her to go back to dancing. And it was just like an addiction from then on. It was honestly, like, my mum said that sometimes, like, a birthday party would come up. It's when I'm like, 12, 13, whatever. A birthday party would come up, but it would be on, like, the night where I usually go to, like, my tap class. And so my mum would be like, do you want to go to that birthday party, Soph? And I'd be like, no, no, I have my tap class. She was like, it was so not a normal thing for a kid to be like. You know, usually they want to go to the parties, but I just wanted to be in my dance classes. I was obsessed.

[F]

You know, you played Nene in Moulin Rouge, right? And now Velma Kelly. Some choreography on Broadway is like judo. And I would say, I mean, maybe.

[E]

The judo trailing has come in handy.

[F]

I don't know. I mean, it's pretty. It's pretty. I mean, is that your energy?

[E]

Maybe there is some aggression in there, I guess, isn't there?

[F]

I mean, people are kind of obsessed with your Velma. I mean, you've shown up and people are really. I mean, people are talking about you. It's a fantastic turn. How does it feel to be in the Broadway world like this?

[E]

To be honest, it's still quite unbelievable. Like, you know, you just say, as if I still have moments of, like. As if I'm here. Like, even you saying that, then it was just like. It's weird for me to hear, like, people that even know about me. It sounds stupid, but you're just, like. When you're just living it day by day. It's my job. It's. It's everything I've worked towards. But once you're doing it, you're. You're just doing it, and you just doing it to the best of your ability. So to hear that people are enjoying it and are recognizing it and just. It means. Means the world.

[F]

How did it happen? How did you end up as Broadway's Velma Kelly?

[E]

So I played the role on the UK tour nine years ago.

[F]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Okay.

[E]

Yeah. I was baby velma. I was 24 years old.

[F]

Tell me how you got that.

[E]

I auditioned, actually. I auditioned for Roxy and Velma back.

[F]

Then because did you know you were more of a Velma?

[E]

I wanted to be Velma, 100% okay. But they gave both the material for both roles. So I auditioned for both and I think they went back to my agent and said, would she consider understudy? And I don't know if I was just ballsy at the time or I think I'd been doing lots of other things. There was a lot of like TV and film happening in the UK at the time and I didn't want to go on tour unless I got one of those roles. I was like, I want to play those roles. It was a year long tour, so I thought, no, I'll stick to my guns and say how I really feel. Which is, you know, thank you. But it's either one of the roles or no. And they went quiet for a month. Maybe. I don't know what happened. Did they offer it to someone else? I'll never know. But a month later I ended up getting an offer for Velma Kelly on the tour and I had the best time. Lots of people from that tour are still my best friends. Now the Roxy at the time, Hayley Tammerdon, she's still one of my best friends. She was one of my bridesmaids at my wedding not long ago.

[F]

Congratulations. Newly married.

[E]

Thank you. So, yeah, so I did that tour for a year and then I randomly did it in Japan. They needed to put a cast together for like a three week only thing in Japan about four years ago. And then when I came here, I signed with a US agent and they said, would you like to do Chicago on Broadway? I was like, obviously like, yeah, if we can make that happen. And then an audition came around and they submitted me and they called me in because the team is different here. So I hadn't met some of the team. Even though they, they knew that I did the show, they hadn't seen me. So I went and auditioned and then there was a another round, a final audition. I went in for that and then like that week I, yeah, they contacted me agent. They were like, we will be in touch. I was in Moulin Rouge at the time. So I was contracted still for another quite a few months. So it didn't work out immediately. But then when the timing was right, I got the call and I was like literally buzzing.

[F]

What is it like joining that company? Obviously there are some members of that company have Been there a very long time.

[E]

Yes.

[F]

They are used to people coming and going.

[E]

Yes.

[F]

Right. That's sort of part of the dynamic of the show. A lot of the principals come and go. What is it like showing up and being like, hi, everyone, I'm Sophie. Like, what's that like? How do you.

[E]

Well, they're super warm and welcoming because they do it so often, so they know how to make you feel immediately very comfortable. But there is. It's an odd feeling when you are so. Especially on your opening night, I was so nervous. I had, like, all my Moulin Rouge, Catherine. I think there was 38 people I had from Moulin Rouge watching that night, which was amazing. So I had all this, like, nervous energy. And obviously for everyone else, it's just another Monday they've been in the show. Some of them, like you said, like, 19, 20 years. It was just another show for them. So it is an odd dynamic when you're like. And they're just chilling because it's just another show. But in a way, it's good, it's calming. It's like a nice. It levels you out.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

But, yeah, it's definitely a hamster wheel there. You just hop on and you're in and it's just going. Which is a good thing.

[F]

Are you good at learning names?

[E]

No. No, I'm not. Are you going to test me or something?

[F]

That would intimidate me if I had to. Like, I feel like I'd have a cheat sheet in my phone. Well, we do guy with mustache making notes.

[E]

Yeah. The one who deals me the props. Give me my paper. Yeah.

[F]

So talk about dance. So you're a fantastic dancer.

[E]

Thank you.

[F]

How important is that in your life now? Dance and moving around.

[E]

I think most dancers will agree. Like, obviously, I'm much older now in the spectrum of dance. I'm actually quite old. I think you go through a journey as a dancer. Like, you know, I was obsessed, obsessed when I was younger, truly obsessed. It never felt like work. And then, you know, you go through your phases of what styles you enjoy more, and then you start working and the dynamic does change. It becomes work. And then. Then you find out even more. What, like, oh, you question what do I really want to do? Especially if you are lucky enough to be in that position where you might have the choice of. Of different types of jobs, you do have to make decisions on what do I really do? Like, what do I really enjoy doing? And then I think at one point I sort of. My love of dance did sort of slip away at One point. And I was, like, focusing more on the acting and the singing and, like, really finding my love with that. But actually doing Moulin Rouge is what really sparked my love for dance again. I think it was the. Just the style of it, the brashness of it, like, the. The combination of. Of storytelling through the dance, which I hadn't done in a while, and I fell in love with that again, especially the To Bad romance. Love that number.

[F]

Incredible.

[E]

Yeah.

[F]

Sonia Taya. I mean, that choreography. Tony winning choreography. I can't even imagine what it's like to be in the middle of that number.

[E]

It's electric. It really is. Yeah.

[F]

And every time I see it, you know, when it first opened and now, you know, many years into the run, it is at such a level, you know, the performance level of that number. It's wild.

[E]

Yeah. There are certain numbers within shows that I personally will never get tired of. And all that jazz in Chicago, is that for me as well.

[F]

Absolutely.

[E]

There is not a day when I come out of that trap door, open the show, Epic entrance. There is not a moment that I'd ever be like, oof, can't be bothered tonight. Never. Every night, it's like, oh, my God. As if I get to do this literally. And the choreography is iconic. I feel like that word gets thrown about a lot these days. Iconic. But Fosse choreography actually is. And it is an honor to do it every night.

[F]

Talk about the language of the choreography. It's been obviously very discussed throughout culture for many, many years. But, like, how do you describe it? There's a lot of sort of, like, tension under a lot of.

[E]

I would say specific, because there are just the things that you might not even notice, but, like, it'll be, like, a tilt of the wrist, and if you don't do that, it doesn't look right. The minute you tilt the wrist to the correct angle and everyone does it, it's, like, beautiful. And, like, just. There's so much isolation. There's so much discipline that you have to have performing Fosse style because there is. At the majority of the time, there's less freedom for you to sort of do your own thing and add your own spin on it. And I think maybe some dancers might find that restrictive, but I think there's beauty in that. Like, the discipline to, like, hit those exact shapes. And I just think it hits so amazing when everyone does together. Like, the impact is phenomenal, and that's why the show still is incredible to watch.

[F]

So you have a new Roxie.

[E]

Yes.

[F]

Kate Baldwin. How many Roxies have you played against?

[E]

Oh, my gosh. I actually. So I haven't been with the Broadway company that long.

[D]

Right.

[E]

And I think I've. I mean, including understudies, probably 10.

[F]

Yeah.

[C]

Right.

[E]

And I haven't. I think I've been with the show 10 months, maybe even 11 or 12. Yeah, loads.

[F]

It is fun. It's a really fun relationship and a fun dynamic because you really do get to play off each other so much, and everyone gets to bring themselves to the role. So it must really keep you on your toes to have a new Roxie or completely an understudy. Roxy, or.

[E]

This week, we have Rachel with us, and her. Roxy is electric, so full of life, so spunky. It's like, I did my first show with her last night, and it felt like a whole new show. The whole show felt buzzy. And then I've been rehearsing with Kate, who is a whole different take and just brings me in. Like, there's just something about her that's just, like, unnerving. Like, so raw and. Yeah, it's. Rehearsing with her is super exciting as well. My first show with her is in a week. Yeah, A week on Monday.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

Yeah.

[F]

I know that Catherine Zeta Jones is sort of the ultimate, but what are your dreams? Do you have any other Broadway dreams or. I mean, I know you're sort of at the top. You're at the top of everything.

[E]

No, still so many dreams. My God, I would love to be part of an original company and create something from the ground up. You know, to be in that room where you are creating these roles and these, you know, the whole show together would be an incredible experience. I've always. I love movie musicals as well. Just being involved in those is always exciting. I've been lucky to be a part of a few because so much shoots in the UK now. So I was part of the team of Little Mermaid and Rocketman. And being there creating the sequences and working out how they're gonna, you know. Yeah, it's just. Yeah, it's super exciting. So hopefully more movies and stuff.

[F]

What's the trick of nailing an American accent and a Chicago accent?

[E]

Gosh, I don't know. I actually don't know. When I first learned the show, I had some dialect coaching, and I think it's just ingrained in me now. But I do always say, like, if something goes wrong and I just have to improv a bit, I am worried that I'll end up just improving my own accent. And people, like, where's Velma from. But I think it's just being surrounded by Americans help as well. But don't test me right now in front of these cameras.

[F]

I'll have you talk like an American girl at the mall.

[E]

A Velma Kelly broad. No, I also talk lower. Is Velma. I feel like she sits lower. Her voice.

[F]

Awesome. So what, like when you said, like, when you're coming out of the hole. Whatever. What's it called?

[E]

Coming out of the hole?

[D]

What is that?

[F]

What are you coming out of?

[E]

We say the trap.

[F]

The trap. Coming out of. You're coming out of the trap, Velma. You got the hair, you got the outfit, you got the pose. It's all so, like, specific, Right. What's going through your head when you feel that and you see the. It's crazy to emerge and see the audience.

[E]

Yeah. What is going through my head? I think breathing also, like, hit that bevel. I haven't got, like, the best feet, so I really have to, like, think about my feel. So I'm always thinking, like, hit the bevel. Make sure my knee is fully over in that bevel. And just, like, holding my core. Cause you can't be wobbling. Imagine if I came out and wobbled. So I think there's that. And sometimes. I don't know. Yeah, I can. Like. Most people tend to clap once or twice. They haven't. And that's a bit awkward. And my. My brain is probably going, can I hear an applause, please? But usually it's just like, yeah, breathe. And just. Yeah, here we go. I guess I'm just like, let's go.

[F]

What about Velma's mentality? Did you connect with her?

[E]

So, interestingly, people probably don't know this, but at the top of the show, there's kind of a thought that Velma isn't being Velma in that moment. Yeah, it's more of, like, a pipin moment of, like, just sort of being the narrator of the story in that moment. So really that's why also, she wears a different dress at the beginning. Because I'm not in prison at that time. The rest of the show, I'm in, like, a little slip dress. Whereas that I'm in, like, a little sparkly one. So when I first learned the show, it was more like that was Velma doing her vaudeville act. Whereas we discussed here that it's more not Velma Kelly at all, but just like a Pippin sort of vaudeville star moment.

[F]

I never knew that. What's her name?

[E]

Oh, I don't know.

[D]

What's that.

[E]

Who is that?

[F]

Who is that woman singing that song?

[E]

In my head, though, it is still Velma Kelly esque, but just not the Velma that you see then in the story. So then when I enter again, that's.

[D]

Like, I love that.

[E]

Not the showbiz vaudeville star.

[F]

Yeah. 29 years in, I'm still learning things about Chicago.

[E]

Right.

[F]

Thank you for that.

[E]

We're all still learning. Like, literally, we discuss new things and new ideas all the time. Because I think you can have a different spin on it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And now here's Beth Stevens conversation with Chicago's script adapter, David Thompson.

[G]

When you think about starting working on Chicago, what are the first thoughts that come to your head?

[C]

Well, we first started working on Chicago. We knew we were doing it for encores. So everything was built around how it would land on a concert version. And it was interesting because what we felt we were uncovering and what we would learn to uncover with the piece in years to come and how the piece became so important. Initially, we were just trying to make sure we did a great concert. So all the things that you would have approached that piece with were about streamlining it and finding the absolute essence of what the story was. And that became the challenge and the delight of working on the piece.

[G]

You have a long history of working with Don Kander and the late Fred Ebb. Tell me how that started and how.

[C]

It grew in maybe about 1985, a long time ago. Scott Ellis and Susan Stroman and I were very good friends in New York. We were just bopping around looking for something to do. And Scott had an idea. He was in the rink at the time. Maybe we could do a new version of Flora the Red Menace. I'd never written a script before, and Scott hadn't directed much and Stroh had choreographed. But the three of us were journeymen. And we knocked on Fred Ebbs door and asked if we could do that. And Fred should have said no, and John should have said no, come back when you have a little bit more experience. But they said yes, let's get to work. And from that moment on, we became fast collaborators, always looking for another project to do. And to that this day, I'm still working with John Kander and Scott and Stroh. So it's all about that idea of those crazy ideas you have when you arrive in the city and you knock on the door that you don't have any knowledge about. Why, that's a crazy thought. And it working out well.

[G]

Chicago, when it was first conceived with Bob Fosse on the creative team and driving it. It was a vaudeville. And I don't even know if audiences know what a vaudeville is now, but it's still works. So tell me why that structure is so meaningful and works even today.

[C]

Yeah, the vaudeville structure is really the root of a lot of the entertainment we have in the world today, including, like Saturday Night Live. It's that idea of very short skits and vignettes and songs and dances. And you would have different stars doing them in different styles and different stars doing different music. And it was fun. The advantage of it for Chicago was it did a couple things. First of all, it provided a point of view for the music. So certain songs in the show are done in a vaudeville style based on a performer of the day. So me and My Baby might be Eddie Cantor or Cellophane might be Burt Williams or Funny Honey might be Helen Morgan. But all of those stars at that time influenced that music. But the other thing that it did, which was important, is it allows you to say, and now, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to do a tap dance, or now we're going to sing a song. And it's going to be a song of great, you know, if anything that you wanted it to be, you can go anywhere. And that's the great thing about a vaudeville. And that's what became the engine to tell that story and. And have fun with it and just. And make it about, you know, it being as outrageous as you needed it to be.

[G]

How do you describe the story if someone asks you?

[C]

I always look at it as a story of what we will do in order to become celebrities in this world. And that's the story. That's been the story. I think that was the story when. When Maureen Dallas Watkins wrote it originally, when it was turned into early movies.

[G]

Based on true events.

[E]

Right?

[C]

That's right. She was a reporter for the Chicago Trib and these in 2526. And she followed the stories of Beulah Anon and Belva Gertner. And these two women were arrested for. In jail for having killed their lovers in very much the same way they do in Chicago. And they became sensational because they were so beautiful. And she wrote the stories about it and people loved the stories and they followed it. And she quit the newspaper business and she went into. She went to drama school. She wrote this play and the play called Chicago. And it became a hit. But from that point on, that play, that story just kept continuing to come back. And in movies, there was a Ginger Rogers movie and finally, when it came up in the late 60s to do an adaptation of it, there it was. It was still that same story about people who will do anything to become a celebrity.

[G]

So there you are. You've got all of the source material. You have the play, you have the original work. How did you streamline it and make it? It's like an engine. It just goes so quickly.

[C]

Walter, Bobbie and Ann Reinking had a very clear idea of how they wanted it done. And it was to really reduce everything down to its essence. So you'll notice there are no props in the show and there are no props in the script. So all the props disappeared from the original. There's no scenery in this show. There's no doors, there's no windows that come in. There's no flats that come on. All that was cut. In fact, there was a scene at one point where there was a scene in the second act where there's a poker game being played with Mama Morton and some of the murderesses. Well, it would require a table and chairs and cards. Cut. So what we were doing was finding ways to get down to the essence of what the story was. And if a speech was in three sentences or three lines, could you do it in one? Could you do it in one word? So it was all about taking it down to its absolute essence. And in a lot of ways, that's what the staging did as well. They pushed everything right to the edge of the stage. Everything is in one. Everything is right at the edge of the stage and right there with the audience. So suddenly, the material took off. The original was all. Was all there. The original is as brilliant as. As you would ever have imagined it. It was just a bigger production and it had a lot more things, more parts to it. And this just became how can we reduce it down to its absolute streamlined essence? And that was Walter's point of view, and that was the way Annie approached it as well, and the way the dance is incorporated.

[G]

You have a long, long partnership with Kander and Ebb. What's special about that for you? And how did that change you as a writer?

[C]

The great thing about working with John and Fred was it's all about collaboration. So if you go into a room with them at any time, or continuing on with John, any idea is a good idea. It doesn't matter how crazy it is. There's no egos. You throw it into the mix. Everything is safe. And what's wonderful about that is it's a great way to learn, but it's also a great way to create, because you might throw an idea out that might be kind of good, but I might pick it up and look at it differently, and we pass it on to the next person, and suddenly what might have started off as a crazy idea becomes something that's. That's gold. So it's. It's a process, but it comes down to trusting one another as collaborators and. And encouraging people to bring anything into the mix. Any. Any idea is a good one.

[G]

This musical is. Or this musical revival, I should say, is almost 30 years old. Why do you think it still hits? It still endures. And as we said, it's based on something that happened 100 years ago.

[C]

When the show opened in 96, it was interesting. You have to remember, it was right at the time that O.J. simpson trial was happening, and there was a Kardashian in that mix. So, remember, there was. It was the beginning of what would become the idea of reality tv. There was the Unabomber. There were the Menendez trial that was going on. All of these trials were there that were showing up what it would mean if you were. Everybody was becoming a celebrity, right? The judges, the plaintiffs, the lawyers.

[G]

So many crimes of the century.

[C]

So many. But. But it became like something we were completely fascinated by. And that idea, though, of people, those stories that we follow, the crimes that we follow, the sensational crimes that we follow has become sort of a national diet. And they're. You know, they're fun, they're awful. They're. They can be any number of things, but they're not going away.

[G]

And you can't look away.

[C]

You can't look away. That's it, exactly. I remember when we were in rehearsals with Chicago initially, you know, OJ Was going down in the white Bronco. Everybody was watching it. It was such a blur of entertainment and crime and law, and trial was so blurred. And then when the show opened, it was. Everybody was not shocked to see how relevant it was. But. But suddenly the musical became the embodiment of so much of what we were experiencing culturally.

[G]

It's true of that happening in 1996, but now, 29 years later, it doesn't go away.

[C]

Listen, there's. It keeps coming back in all sorts of ways. Anything from Stormy Daniels to. It goes on and on and on, and we just. And we celebrate that. It's a crazy thing, but it is America and that showbiz.

[G]

Is there a line or a moment from the show that still hits you when you hear it?

[C]

I always love it in the song Roxy. When they. When they say, and that's because we didn't get enough love in our childhood. Not that I didn't get enough love in my childhood, but I think that's such a funny outlier of a. Of an idea that, you know, that they love you and we love you, and we all love one another. And that's show business, kid.

[G]

That's show business, kid.

[A]

And that's gonna do it for this episode of the Broadway show Uncut. Be sure to grab your tickets to Chicago [e-mail] and until next time, I'm Tamsen Fadal.