← The Brothers Ortiz
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- [00:00]
Hunter Woodhull
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S and P. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures hey.
- [01:10]
Tara Davis Woodhull
This is US Olympic gold medalist Tara.
- [01:12]
Hunter Woodhull
Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.
- [01:15]
Tara Davis Woodhull
As athletes, our lives are about having.
- [01:17]
Hunter Woodhull
A clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.
- [01:20]
Tara Davis Woodhull
So when it came to getting the best mortgage, we chose PennyMac. PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA and you.
- [01:28]
Hunter Woodhull
Learn more at pennymac.com pennymac loan services llc/housing lender nmls id 35953 licensed by the Department of Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending Act. Conditions and restrictions may apply. Well, the holidays have come and gone once again, but if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift, well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next year. What do you have to lose? Give it a try@mintmobile.com switch limited time.
- [01:59]
Tara Davis Woodhull
50% off regular price for new customers upfront payment required 45 for 3 months, $90 for 6 months or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes when network is busy. See Terms There's a fire inside you you can't ignore. Stand still. Not a chance. You're a lifelong learner who's come this far. Now we're here to help you keep going. Further Capella University what can't you do? Visit Capella. Edu to learn more. Campsite Media.
- [02:31]
Sean Flynn
Larry Ortiz was a lot of things to a lot of different people. He was a father, a husband, a friend, a brother. But he was also an ex con, a drug dealer and a gang member. On this bonus episode of the Brothers Ortiz, we're talking with an expert who can help contextualize that last part of Larry's identity. A chairman, a shot caller for Tango Blast. Mike Tapia, a sociologist at Texas A and M Commerce, has been studying gangs for more than a decade. He never met Larry Ortiz, but he's met a lot of people like Larry. I sat down with him to talk about the origins of prison gangs, the current landscape and the inner workings of groups like Tango Blast. Take a listen. Just tell us who you are, your interests, your affiliations, and obviously your name.
- [03:20]
Mike Tapia
My name is Mike Tapia. I'm an associate professor of criminal justice at Texas A and M Commerce. I'm a criminologist, a sociologist by training who studies nothing but crime pretty much almost exclusively. I'm known, I would say first and foremost in my field as a gang expert of sorts, particularly in Texas and particularly with prison gangs. I do focus on Chicano prison gangs and Chicano gangs of all stripes, that's to say Mexican American, American gangs. And my latest research pursuits are with drug cartels and violence spillover on the Texas Mexico border.
- [04:14]
Sean Flynn
So when we first told you about this story about Gabe and Larry, these two brothers end up doing very well for themselves on different sides of the law. You weren't terribly surprised by that. Is that accurate?
- [04:27]
Mike Tapia
I wasn't. There are many such tales that I collected similar in nature from San Antonio in a book I wrote that published in 2017. And it's a hundred year historiography of Chicano gangs in that city. Especially when you study history. There are so many things that come out of the woodwork in that regard and some, and a lot of them are strikingly similar to this, this story here.
- [05:00]
Sean Flynn
Is there a thread that runs through these sort of, for lack of a better term, good brother, bad brother stories? Or is it just, you know, there's so many brothers in the world, some are going to turn out like this?
- [05:10]
Mike Tapia
I think, you know, it's just the age old adage about a black sheep from an otherwise good traditional Mexican American working class family. I think that scenario gets, gets played out quite a bit. I mean, it's also probably about how close any of us ever really thinks or feels we might be to the criminal element and some of us are positioned in the social world to be closer than others. And, you know, so, yeah, I think there's access sometimes opens up for certain people, and sometimes they. They walk through that door.
- [05:54]
Sean Flynn
Can we rewind then a little bit for. For just a little bit of a history lesson? When. When did prison gangs become a force.
- [06:04]
Mike Tapia
In Texas? In the early 80s.
- [06:06]
Sean Flynn
Can you walk us through it? Who did it start with? Why?
- [06:10]
Mike Tapia
Yeah, and it really, surprisingly, hasn't changed much in terms of their structure and norms to this day. Folks gravitate toward, you know, others that are similar to themselves. Right. And so one really important marker there is geography. Where are you from? Is so fundamental and important to the social sphere in prison. Right. In state prison in particular. And so guys click up on that basis, and they go to war against each other for fighting for meager resources and so on. Competition for the drug trade and controlling the illicit things that happen in prison. So it's kind of a microcosm of the outside world, if you will. There's also a pretty important. I think it's as important to note the structure of the prison itself, how Texas in particular, managed, you know, this large group of unruly men and the system that they devised. It's a crappy job to be a correctional officer. The standards are pretty low to get in, the pay sucks, and it's a thankless job. It could be a very dangerous position. And so one way to control populations in prison is to let them police themselves. And sort of a social Darwinism kicks in. And so those that emerge as leaders, as charismatic, as strong physically and intimidating, get some responsibility. They're offered responsibility to sort of manage, help the guardsmen and wardens and so forth, manage populations and keep people in line. So the state Supreme Court of Texas made that practice illegal. And so they told prisons, prison administrators, you can't keep letting inmates police their own kind. It's called the turnkey system. And these guys had keys. They had access to different parts of the prison and everything. So they were, for all practical purposes, unpaid employees of the prison who got certain benefits.
- [08:48]
Sean Flynn
So when did this turnkey system start?
- [08:52]
Mike Tapia
Oh, I'd say that it's probably always been there. It seems like just to be part of the nature of the beast of locking people up. I mean, it's almost impossible to diminish it or make it obsolete. Just because of the very nature of being locked up with other individuals. Some strong leader will emerge. Now, they call it a pod dog. That's a big part of how and why These groups form just political microcosms in the penitentiary.
- [09:28]
Sean Flynn
So you covered. My next question is, despite whatever the Texas Supreme Court might have ruled, is it even possible to make this system go away?
- [09:38]
Mike Tapia
No. I mean they also ruled that it's illegal to group inmates on the basis of race. But there again, you know, that will never go away. And that is in is another strong basis that I shouldn't leave that out. I would even say that that probably is one of the primary reasons that prison gangs did form also is, is for self protection and preservation, for racial conflict reasons. You know, blacks against whites against Mexicans essentially in Texas prisons.
- [10:16]
Sean Flynn
Can you give us sort of the geography of the current situation? I mean what, what are the big gangs? What's moving around? Who's, who's prevalent now?
- [10:26]
Mike Tapia
Sure, Their, their nucleus is some, you know, some Texas city. Right. Texas syndicate. Traditionally home base is Austin, Texas. Right. To some extent also Houston. And that, that has evolved in that way as well. San Antonio has always been Texas Mexican Mafia. El Paso has been Barrio Azteca and there are others that kind of file in, in between with less tied to geography. But you know, they're like the, the 45s from the Laredo area that, that makes reference to a.45 caliber handgun. Right. So there, there are other like lesser known, you know, prison gangs that by administration are still, you know, considered what they call security threat groups. You know, there is a hierarchy in prisons in the gang world with prison gangs per se being on top for most of the past, you know, 40 years, we'll say roughly since, since their inception right in the 80s. And so under, right underneath that highest status are folks that are just sympathetic to the cause, maybe a younger generation who were street gang members and who just sort of do the dirt, if you will, of the larger prison gangs with the hope that, you know, they would get selected for full on membership at some point if they prove their loyalty. And so those are what's known as tangos. Right. So tango is this term that's been used pretty much since the inception of prison gangs. And it's just basically backup to the extent that prison gangs are. But the tango structure just lies right beneath that layer. And sometimes the most capable amongst them, you know, would be called up to the big leagues. You know, the, there's a baseball analogy there, you know, with the minor leagues and the, and the big leagues. And so somebody's number gets called up and they put in enough work, as it were, do enough dirt in the name of the furtherance of the gangs, you know, Whatever its business is. And so that's the structure that I think that Larry fit into. And he was old enough to be part of probably that junior structure when he was first incarcerated. And so, yeah, he would have fallen in line, Houston being Dongle Blast and probably answering at some point to the Texas Syndicate. But just because prison gangs originate and have a home base, you know, in a large Texas city in particular, it doesn't mean that the prison system doesn't shuffle them around the state and that they don't find each other. So there are probably. There are probably smatterings of every gang in every prison in Texas. But amongst the prisoners, it's always known who runs that joint. Whose canton is this? Which basically means whose house is this? This. Right. And so different prison units. And there's so many, you know, dozens of prison units across Texas. There is a primary gang that. Who's Canton. That is. Right. And there's always a leader, you know, Gallo mayor, you know, like the big rooster. I mean, you know, there's all this whole terminology that goes with it. So, yeah, that's. That's the basic structure and that I think that. That Larry filtered into at some point.
- [14:32]
Sean Flynn
He was a. I'm probably going to mispronounce it. Asila.
- [14:38]
Mike Tapia
Asea. Yeah. So he was a shot.
- [14:42]
Sean Flynn
Okay.
- [14:42]
Mike Tapia
It's like a pod dog. That's a. That's really. It's a synonym for it. You know, it's somebody who. Yeah. Calls shots, you know, inside. And I really don't know if that translates to the outside world. I assume that. I never asked that question of any of the guys I, you know, studied or spent time with, but I would assume that it probably carries some weight in the outside world as well.
- [15:08]
Sean Flynn
What would it mean on the inside world?
- [15:11]
Mike Tapia
Yeah, I mean, everything a shot collar does pretty much racks up a lot of the profits from drug sales, coordinates, those things, you know, discipline. The gangs in incarceral settings are real quick to punish their own for transgressions and for not rising to the occasion when called upon. All these things that happen that the sia, you know, controls is. They call it disciplina, you know, and, you know, there's a whole terminology, you know, if you don't have enough cora, which is, you know, Spanish for short for corazon. Right. If you don't have heart for the gang and you don't show it when called upon to do so, to go steal something or beat somebody up or, you know, go deliver this dope or, you know, whatever it is, then there's going to be consequences to pay. So yeah, the CIA pretty much coordinates and controls all that and probably has other right hand people to help with that stuff as well.
- [16:18]
Sean Flynn
So when Gabe was telling us about this, he made it sound basically like that, but there were a few differences. He was telling us that the Tangos, unlike Aryan Brotherhood, Texas Syndicate isn't a blood in, blood out organization. That you can be a tango while you're in prison and then come out rehabilitated, go back to your civilian life.
- [16:42]
Mike Tapia
That's correct. And it's evolved to that point. So at some point the Tangos became so numerous. They're the younger generation. We had an incarceration binge in Texas. People were going to prison for every thing under the sun. Texas is a nail em and jail them state, you know, real hardcore law and order place, known not to be shy about incarceration by any means. And so with that critical mass of young guys, the economy of Texas being what it is, job opportunities, the educational system, so on and so forth, all these things that are thought to contribute to children turning wayward and going to the streets instead. Well, yeah, guess what, you know, you're going to have a critical mass of, of these streetwise kids entering prison and at some point realizing their potential and saying why are we taking this stuff from these, from these guys? You know, these guys are, are so old fashioned, you know, so it's sort of like a, like just, just the age old tale of a younger generation coming of age and saying we're not going to take it anymore, you know. And it was sort of a defensive posture at first because that's a pretty gutsy move, you know. And for younger guys that are not as criminally embedded, if you will or not, not as sophisticated as the older guys in the ways of the joint. It was pretty clumsy at first, but they eventually got some internal structure and they decided instead of being hierarchical and strict about membership and rules and it was, it was designed from the inception as being very loose. You know, it was meant to be like, come in here, we're your, we're your protection society while you're here. When it's time for you to bounce out of here, you go back to your regular life. You know, we don't have, you know, exactly like you said, the blood in, blood out oath. But as with all things, you know, that defensive posture will evolve into an offensive one and will start to compete with these prison gangs as these guys age out. And so yeah, it's just a matter of the younger generation evolving taking over, becoming more numerous. And so yeah, Larry would have been right in that age to see all that stuff, you know, all those things that happen in prison bleed out to the street. At that point it becomes a personal choice. I think you're not beholden to the tango anymore. You don't have to have any loyalty to it out on the street. But those opportunities do exist if, if you so choose. And people do eventually mature out of the street life and the gang life as well because they want to see their grandkids grow up and stuff like just like you and me, you know.
- [19:47]
Hunter Woodhull
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index within AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index, and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures hey.
- [20:58]
Tara Davis Woodhull
This is US Olympic gold medalist Tara.
- [20:59]
Hunter Woodhull
Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.
- [21:03]
Tara Davis Woodhull
As athletes, our lives are about having.
- [21:04]
Hunter Woodhull
A clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.
- [21:08]
Tara Davis Woodhull
So when it came to getting the best mortgage, we chose PennyMac. PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA and you.
- [21:15]
Hunter Woodhull
Learn more at pennymac.com PennyMac Loan Services, LLC equal housing lender and MLS ID 35953 licensed by the Department of Financial Protection and Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending Act. Conditions and restrictions may apply.
- [21:27]
Tara Davis Woodhull
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- [22:00]
Hunter Woodhull
Well, the holidays have come and gone once again. But if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift. Well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next year. What do you have to lose? Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch limited time.
- [22:20]
Tara Davis Woodhull
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- [22:33]
Sean Flynn
So was something like the Tangos? Was there sort of arrival and evolution as someone who studies this is it, Are they a less benign force in the grand scheme of prison? Where were the Tangos a good thing or a bad thing? They're evolution and development.
- [22:52]
Mike Tapia
Yeah, I mean, the Texas Department of Public Safety has a gang security threat report that it puts out every year. As someone who studies gangs, you know, the lens through which they, you know, see this is very narrow, very limited. So they have placed Tango Blast, for example, super high on the threat list for law enforcement. Tango Blast, they've become one of the big boys. You know, they are probably Houston's primary prison gang. They've since, you know, sort of pushed out the old guard. But yeah, when I see news headlines these days about, you know, what makes the news about inner city crime and stuff, it's usually Tango guys that are. And they're already in, you know, in our age. You know, they're up in age because they've been around for a while and yeah, they've sort of evolved into shot callers and stuff. They probably spend a lot of time going in and out of jail in prison. And so, you know, they really never leave that life. You know, they've, they sort of adopted it and so on. So, yeah, I think it's probably fair to say that dango is the new game in town for Texas criminals.
- [24:12]
Sean Flynn
So back to Larry after. So when he was a kid, he started his little pretend gang. They saw this movie called South Central, which is actually pretty good, and they decided to start their own gang called Deuce. They were like 11. But after that, when Larry Started making money. These guys were claiming to be Crips, so. But the Crips really have an outlet or a branch way over in Brazoria county. Or we just claim it a name.
- [24:43]
Mike Tapia
It's hard to tell. But I'm sure that someone didn't fly in from Compton and say, I'm going to set up a chapter of the Crips, you know, here in Brazoria. But yeah, no, by, by the time that Larry was out in the streets doing their thing, there was a lot of copycat stuff going on. You know, gang culture had sort of swept the nation. It was kind of a popular fad. And for street kids that don't have a lot to do if, if America's not investing in its inner cities, you know, with little league baseball and you know, as those things go away, well, kids are going to fill in the gaps with other stuff and they get creative with it. I did a study in Indianapolis for example, when, because I went to graduate school at Ohio State. And so this was in the early 2000s, right? What I saw as a student of crime at the time were scrawlings on the wall in these places in the Midwest, pretty far from the southwest, right? Like Sereno 13, one of the most popular, you know, California based, LA based gangs that have pretty much spread to every major city in the United States. But the Latino population was so small in these places, right, That I was like, can that be real? Can this happen? Is it a franchising of sorts or is it just copycat? Are there drug markets to be cornered here and there is expansion? You know, that was my research question, right? So I set out, got some money from the NSF and got this study funded up there to try to find out, you know, started riding with cops and they would take me to these gang members homes to interview them, you know, about. Okay, so like where are Yalls roots? You know, where are your origins? Why are you claiming a gang that exists in Houston and, and San Antonio and, and in the southwestern large cities? Like are you all really here? You know, 18th Street, Mississippi 13. Like every brand name that you'd ever heard of in the gang world, right, was present. And it didn't take me long to like crack that that world and gain some entry and kind of see it for myself. And I published papers on it and everything. And it never really fully answered. It's always, you know, the answer is always somewhere in the middle. It's always a little bit of both, right? There is one guy, you know, there that, that knows Something that brought from 3rd Ward, Houston, you know, his uncle was a real Crip somewhere who moved from LA or whatever. And. And then it just. Those kind of cultural norms sort of get passed on and the knowledge you need to be a Crip and how to do the Crip walk and you know, how to, you know, all their norms and stuff. And so, yeah, it's just pop culture.
- [27:31]
Sean Flynn
I know nobody's got a crystal ball, but do you see any major changes coming? You know, guys going to go away, they're going to take more power, they're going to get bigger, they're going to get smaller. Is it just going to be more of the same? That was it. For a question, sure.
- [27:42]
Mike Tapia
No, it's a valid one. And I contend in most of the stuff that I've written that street gangs as we've known them for so long in American cities and so forth have gone by the wayside. This has a lot to do with the rise in technology, the methods that kids use, what they spend their days doing. Now we have these like sort of social media gang bangers who don't hardly ever go to the street, to put it this way. You know, gangs of old used to posture little literally on street corners, right? They occupied turf within the city. Whether they claimed that street corner as their place to sell drugs, run girls, you know, fight other proximate groups, you know, that's that. That hearkens back to like, you know, 1950s sort of urban gang lore. Law enforcement has also cracked down on gangs in the 90s. Gang units, if you will, gang task forces and such were pretty rare. But as the social problem grew, then law enforcement responded accordingly and started forming all these specialized units. And so gang common sense also evolved to adapt to that and say, we can't be putting ourselves out on the street, literally. We have to do things a little smarter, stay behind doors, use technology to continue our craft. And, you know, so it has changed in that regard. And kids don't really like, you know, Bloods and Crips we used to hear in urban myth, and this is probably pretty true at some point, you know, they used to shoot each other over colors. They were shooting complete strangers based on their affiliations. In larger cities, groups used to get around and sort of migrate and travel across the city and just go wild and go on theft and violence, binges and so on and just go around like looking for targets and stuff. I mean, that probably was a very, very short period in American urban history and was just not sustainable. Gangs are often misconstrued as like being these wild thugs run amok, you know, just vandalizing stuff. But they're, they're a little bit more proposive and they do sort of evolve, you know, with, with their surroundings, you know, that including technology. And so I ventured that, you know, gangs, their common sense did evolve as well. And they realized this, this is pretty foolish. You know, you can go away for a long time for pulling the trigger on somebody you don't know. It's sort of become a lot more local, a lot more utilitarian in terms of their criminal activities. It's all about money. You know, a lot of gangsters you see these days with, with, you know, whereas you, you might have seen like loyalty, affiliation type tattoos and stuff, which we still have, right? People want you to know who, you know, who they're down with. But the young youngsters, they put stuff like moe, you know, money over everything. You know, sort of the mantra that like the only color that matters here is green. You know, they make affiliations with unlikely others. If you look at census data, you know that race category called two or more races, you know, mixed, right? That, that group of society mixed race people is really growing. And so with urban dysfunction and poverty and everything being what it is, people filter into those social classes regardless of what race they are. And their kids join gangs and all of a sudden your kids claiming tango and he's half black, he's half white because you live in Houston and that's where he got incarcerated when he stole that car with his friends, you know. And so it has become a bit post racial. I know it sounds strange to talk about gangs in that way because they're thought to be so antisocial and so, you know, like uneducated and just these menacing, you know, figures who ready to victimize anyone. But they're not really like that. They're kids just like you and I were and they're, they're pretty, you know, they're stupid too, you know, but they do some dumb things still.
- [32:31]
Hunter Woodhull
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers, growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures hey.
- [33:41]
Tara Davis Woodhull
This is US Olympic gold medalist Tara.
- [33:43]
Hunter Woodhull
Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.
- [33:46]
Tara Davis Woodhull
As athletes, our lives are about having.
- [33:48]
Hunter Woodhull
A clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.
- [33:52]
Tara Davis Woodhull
So when it came to getting the best mortgage, we chose PennyMac. PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA and you.
- [33:59]
Hunter Woodhull
Learn more at pennymac.com PennyMac Loan Services, LLC equal housing lender NMLS ID 35953 licensed by the Department of Financial Protection and Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending Act. Conditions and restrictions may apply.
- [34:11]
Tara Davis Woodhull
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- [35:12]
Hunter Woodhull
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- [35:32]
Sean Flynn
Q U-E-T.com Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. It's still sort of shocking to me that I mean, Gabe's job when he was in El Paso, he was a gang investigator for the Department of Public Safety and he completely missed it with his brother. I mean all this, I mean he knew when he was going to prison obviously, but after he got out of prison for the last time, he was oblivious to it. It's interesting what you will overlook in your own family, I guess.
- [36:12]
Mike Tapia
Yeah, I mean, you know, the term gang member is such a misunderstood and misconstrued like the imagery that we get. I mean of course there, there are your archetypal gang members, you know, cholos and homies, you know, on the street who love to dress the part and play the part and all that sort of thing. But I mean, that's probably another way since you're asking about how things have changed over time. Gang members have sort of adopted a posturing, you know, where if law enforcement and their, their gang task forces and so on are going to key in on those signifiers, then you start to disguise them. That's also a progression of gang life is to, you know, wear long sleeves and hide your affiliation. And if you do happen to get booked into county jail on something, do not disclose to the classification officer your affiliation. Don't put tattoos on that make that so obvious. You know, it's, it's a double edged sword. Right? Because I mean, if, you know, if you don't put those, you know, block us on yourself, these gang affiliate tattoos, then you know, they speak volumes when you walk into a pod, but they can keep you a lot out of a lot of trouble if you, if you avoid them. Right. With law enforcement. So it's always a slippery slope and these guys all know it, you know, but we make our choices. As much as society is structured around this and creates or, or misses these things or whatever. I mean, individuals on the micro level, you know, do have to navigate those worlds and make those choices. Right. So, so that's always going to be the case.
- [38:02]
Sean Flynn
Well, thank you so much. I mean this has really been helpful. It's some context we can get in here. Those prison gangs is one of those topics that has been so mythologized that it's nice to have some clarity on it.
- [38:15]
Mike Tapia
Well, hope it's helpful and it's always fun. Good. It was a good conversation.
- [38:22]
Sean Flynn
If you'd like to learn more about Mike's research, he's published a few books. His most recent titles are Gangs of the El Paso, Juarez Borderland and the Barrio Gangs of San Antonio, Texas. The Brothers Ortiz is a production from Campside Media in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Brothers Ortiz was written, reported and hosted by me, Sean Flynn. Lane Rose is our Senior Producer. Story Editing by Audrey Quinn Sound Design mix and engineering by Garrett Tiedemann Original music by Garrett Tiedemann Fact checking By Savannah Wright iHeart podcast's executive producers are Lindsey Hoffman and Jennifer Bassett. Campside Media's executive producers are Josh Dean, Vanessa Grigoriadis, Adam Hoff and Matt Sher. A special thanks to our operations team, Doug Slaywin, Ashley Warren and Sabina Mara. If you enjoyed the Brothers Ortiz, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts and thanks for listening. Foreign.
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