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The Kenneth Copeland Interview (EP 186)

The Bryce Crawford Podcast

Mon Mar 30 2026

Summary

The Bryce Crawford Podcast – Episode 186

Guest: Kenneth Copeland
Host: Bryce Crawford
Date: March 30, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode features a rare, in-depth interview with Kenneth Copeland, a prominent and often controversial prosperity gospel preacher. Host Bryce Crawford approaches the conversation as a respectful challenger, openly disagreeing with the prosperity gospel but seeking to understand its scriptural roots and implications from Copeland’s perspective. The episode weaves Copeland’s life story with detailed dialogue on faith, prosperity, suffering, and what it means to abound in Christ.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Kenneth Copeland’s Early Life and Testimony

Copeland’s roots: He shares childhood memories growing up in Texas during the Great Depression, the influence of his family, stories about aviation, and his passion for music and performance ([04:08] – [18:46]).
Spiritual upbringing: Raised in a Christian home with discipline and respect; parents were strong believers ([18:55]).
Conversion experience: Copeland details his encounter with Christ in 1962, the impact on his life and marriage, and embracing ministry ([23:03] – [31:39]).
Notable moment:

“Profanity was gone from that day to this.” — Kenneth Copeland, describing his conversion ([27:59]).

2. The Birth of His Ministry

Kenneth Copeland Ministries: Began in January 1964, with nearly six decades of global outreach ([31:39] – [33:45]).
Calling and rest: Copeland emphasizes God’s design for rest and Sabbath, a lesson he personally learned in 2004 after health challenges ([33:46] – [36:41]).

3. Defining Prosperity and Abundance

Scriptural foundations: Copeland roots his definition of prosperity in John 10:10, John 3:16, and Deuteronomy 8:18 ([38:14]): prosperity begins with salvation and extends to wholeness in every area of life.

“True prosperity starts with John 3:16. That’s where it starts.” — Kenneth Copeland ([38:41])
Prosperity as multifaceted: More than financial gain; includes health, relationships, spiritual well-being, and ability to bless others ([38:14] – [73:38]).

4. Scriptural Defense of Prosperity

Covenant theology: Cites Galatians 3 and Deuteronomy 27–28 to argue that prosperity and blessing are part of God’s covenant promises ([39:24] – [45:46]).
Abrahamic blessing:

“Blessed is the first word the first man ever heard.” — Kenneth Copeland ([45:46])
Tithing and sowing: As spiritual laws for increased provision ([80:39] – [111:17]).

5. Addressing Objections & Suffering

The “thorn in the flesh” of Paul: Copeland offers the interpretation that Paul’s thorn was not physical sickness, but cares and worries for the churches ([58:21]).

“What if you go, it was the care and worry about all the churches that was the thorn in his side.” — Kenneth Copeland ([58:21])
On healing and unanswered prayer: Copeland distinguishes individual will, faith, and spiritual authority in receiving from God ([57:27] – [58:08]).
On failure to prosper:

“Don’t quit. Absolutely. Necessity to tithe... What if it doesn’t happen? I missed it. Not God.” — Kenneth Copeland ([90:30] – [90:43])

6. Prosperity in Every Circumstance

Testimonies from prison ministry: Prosperity contextualized for prisoners; “What does he need to prosper? He just needs Jesus. That’s his prosperity message.” ([74:05])
Notable prison testimony: Copeland tells the story of baptizing serial killer Steven Moran and witnessing transformation through faith ([74:02] – [80:39]).
Material stewardship: The expansion of KCM and stories of giving reflect the importance of blessing others ([99:19] – [101:41]).

7. Dangers of Wealth and the Heart’s Throne

Rich young ruler: Copeland affirms the love of money, not money itself, as the root of evil; the heart’s allegiance determines whether wealth is a blessing or snare ([93:51] – [95:31]).

“Not that they have them. The riches have them.” — Kenneth Copeland ([95:29])

8. Misconceptions and Application

Common misconception: That prosperity teaching promises automatic wealth; Copeland insists it requires personal revelation, faith, and “diligent study of this book” ([105:07] – [105:32]).
Testing God with money: Copeland distances himself from the notion that tithing is a transaction to get money back, stressing faith and obedience instead ([106:52] – [107:18]).
Balance in blessing: Enjoyment of God’s gifts vs. idolatry; setting boundaries and accountability in ministry ([119:54] – [123:48]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the essence of prosperity:

“Being rich is more than enough to take care of what you have and enough left over to help somebody take care of themselves.” — Kenneth Copeland ([00:07], [54:12])
Bryce’s skepticism:

“The thing that’s more attractive to people about this prosperity, health and wealth message is those things rather than Jesus.” — Bryce Crawford ([114:29])
Copeland on contentment:

“I call my body. Well, I don’t watch television at night. I still listen to brother Hagin… That’s the way Gloria and I got it — was listening to it on tape.” ([59:08])
On giving:

“We have done that time and time and time and time and time again.” — Copeland, regarding helping those in need ([100:28])
On responsibility and faith:

“Everything has to be based on this book. A diligent study of this book…” — Kenneth Copeland ([104:09])
“If the money is choked, check your love life.” — (quoting Oral Roberts) ([97:53])
On assurance in God’s provision:

“The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. We shouldn’t want. We lack nothing with Jesus.” — Bryce & Copeland ([119:17])

Important Timestamps & Segments

Copeland’s Early Life & Testimony: [04:08] – [31:39]
Start of Ministry & Sabbatical Lessons: [31:39] – [36:41]
Defining Prosperity, Scriptural Rationale: [38:14] – [45:46]
Debate: Suffering, “Thorn in the Flesh”: [54:03] – [58:37]
Prosperity in Adversity/Prison: [73:38] – [80:39]
Abuse and Cautions of Prosperity Message: [87:26] – [101:41]
Practical Application & Closing Reflections: [102:49] – [129:08]

Flow & Tone

The conversation alternates between Copeland’s affable anecdotes and robust scriptural teaching, punctuated by Bryce’s respectful yet persistent challenges. The tone is warm, sometimes lighthearted (Copeland sings to his wife, tells family stories) but also earnest, particularly as both men grapple with deep issues of suffering, wealth, and purpose in Christian life.

Bryce clearly loves Christ and strives to keep the focus on Jesus rather than the periphery of material blessing, urging listeners to seek the Giver over the gifts. Copeland, while unwavering on prosperity, frequently brings the conversation back to covenant, faith, and practical stewardship — presenting prosperity as a holistic, spiritual, and material reality always anchored in love for Christ.

Concluding Reflections

Host’s perspective:
Bryce encourages listeners to “thank God for the true gospel… not that God just wants material things for our life, but that God wants us and that he is the prize even if we lose everything, because that is the goal.” ([02:14])

Copeland’s final words:
He emphasizes the Bible as a covenant document for life and prosperity, with faith, obedience, and love as the key to everything God intends for his people.

Summary for New Listeners:
This rare conversation lays out Kenneth Copeland’s full vision of the prosperity gospel, tested and probed by Bryce Crawford’s scripturally-based skepticism. It’s as much about interpretation, faith, legacy, and accountability as it is about money. You’ll come away with a nuanced understanding of both the appeal and the most common pitfalls of prosperity teaching, as well as a reminder to value Christ above all treasures.

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Transcript

Podcast Host (0:00)

It's hard for me to wrap my

Bryce Crawford (0:01)

mind around this idea that God wants everyone to be wealthy, everyone to be healthy, and things like that.

Kenneth Copeland (0:07)

When we didn't say that he wants everybody to prosper. Being rich is more than enough to take care of what you have and enough left over to help somebody take care of themselves.

Bryce Crawford (0:19)

The thing that's more attractive to people about this prosperity, health and wealth message is those things rather than Jesus. Where do you find, hey, this is something I enjoy versus this is something that may be sitting on the throne of my heart.

Podcast Host (0:32)

Before we get into this interview, there's a couple things that I want to tell you guys about. Kenneth Copeland is a prosperity gospel preacher who teaches another gospel that says God wants every Christian to be healthy, wealthy and prosper. And if you aren't doing those things as a Christian, then it is your fault. I want to clarify. I do not agree with the prosperity gospel. That's the whole reason why we sat down when we got the opportunity to do the first sit down interview with Kenneth Copeland in over 15 years. I made it very clear to them. I was like, hey guys, I disagree. I'm going to be very respectful in the conversation, but I do not agree with the prosperity gospel. And so this interview is a little bit different where I sat back and asked a lot more questions from a journalistic perspective. Whereas I wanted to understand where he gets this doctrine from. I really don't understand. I want to know how he finds it in Scripture, what that looks like to the person, and ask a lot of questions and do more digging to let the idea speak for itself so that we can understand why the true gospel is important. You know, I believe Paul makes a good case in Second Corinthians that sometimes God allows a thorn in our side to keep us humble and reliant on him. And so it was fun to hear hear his perspective and challenge him, even though I disagree and I want to be very cautious by going into this. But also my heart was first Timothy five. Kenneth Copeland is in the latter parts of his age. He's a little bit older. And I tried to do my best to best to hold to first Timothy 5, which says, do not rebuke an old man, but appeal to him as a father. And so I tried to come at him with challenges as if I was challenging my father and not a harsh rebuke, quote unquote. So I pray that as you watch this interview, you listen to it. He's going to tell a lot of his stories. And then when we get into the prosperity part that the questions that I ask, I pray that they compel you

Bryce Crawford (2:07)

Kenneth Copeland (7:22)

Anyway, in coming to Fort Worth, there were things that took place here in my life. And I had a hit record back in 1957 called Pleasure of Love. I'd been in the army and then Terry, my first daughter was born while I was in the service there. And of course, you know, she's just precious. And of course George Pearsons is my son in law and he pastors EMIC church. Anyway, I went out there trying to get in that entertainment business and it didn't work. But out of that did come that recording contract, out of that deal. So a lot of pressure for sure and I gave up on it. I just quit. I went to my dad. Now my dad said, kenneth, if I was to unzip your head, wouldn't anything but motorcycles and airplanes come out? Well, right there at the end of World War II, they saw that the war was practically over anyway, so there was a man by the name of Wooten in Abilene and the Wootton Hotel and a number of things there. And someone called my dad, I never did know who it was, and said, we're going to fly Mr. Wootton's airplane. Would you and your son like to come? Well now, anyone that's familiar with Amelia Earhart, it was that little Lockheed Electra that she flew. That's what it was. Oh, cool. I can see it in my mind right now. The guy got everything settled in the back seat. I was already in the front. He looked over there at me and he said, don't you touch anything. I sat there like this and I was off the ground. Well, now we talk about. Now you have what you say, but I didn't know that then. And I was walking away and my dad had me by the hand. I was eight or nine years old. I said, daddy, I'm going to do that. He said, what? I'm going to fly airplanes. He said, boy, you can do it. Well then came to Fort Worth and I remember my dad saying to my mother, Aw and Vanetta Copeland, and my grandfather was Chum Owens, pull up his blood Cherokee. He went to sign in for the draft and they said, no, we can't use. That's your nickname, Chum. What's your name? We. What does that stand for? William Elmer. He named himself that day a Cherokee man. Anyway, then he's my grandfather and just, oh, what a guy. Anyway, we go out there on that old farm and spent a lot of time there. So he went to work for National Line Insurance Company there in Little Row. It now has merged with other people. There was a car lot in Fort Worth at 1010 Texas Street. I understand it isn't there anymore, but it was then I worked there for a man by the name of Bill Golightly, and he also owned an aviation company. So I came home and told my dad, I said, you said, you see that I got an education. I said, I want to learn how to fly. So he shook my hand, he said, all right, I'll stay with you till he gets commercial and you own your own. So I soloed August 24th at 4 o' clock in the afternoon at Meacham Field, 12 years before DFW Love Field in Dallas. And most people won't understand this, but aviators will. The final approach fix on an instrument landing system is called the outer marker. Well, Jim Couch had been a military instructor, and I'd had a couple of other instructors that weren't all that good. So Bill brought him in and he said, you want to learn how to fly or just waller around in the sky? I said, I want to learn how. Can you take it? I said, I can if you can dish it out. But needless to say, he did teach me how to fly. I could fly. So I lined up out there in this little Cessna. 15523 echoes ready for takeoff. Roger that. Two three echo, your number eight to follow a DC3 just outside the outer marker. Do they have something painted on a barn out here or something? I said, sir, this is my first solo. All right, Two Three Echo, can you hold your heading? Yes, sir. Can you hold your altitude? Yes, sir. You now turn base, meaning I'm leaving downwind. Turn base and then final, as soon as you see that DC3 go under your wing, you can turn base. So I did it. I did three touch and goes by myself. I am a pilot. I don't know anything, but I'm a pilot. And I went on to that. And I got my private license. Now I'm working on them. And then I kept working at that and now I need a multi engine rating. And I'm just going up the ladder in the aviation world. And TCU was playing Arkansas in 1961 for the Southwest Conference championship. And so I asked, I told Bill, my dad bought cars from him. How about my dad going? He said, there's no place to stay. I said, well, yeah, maybe. I said, dad, call up there and see if you can get the penthouse. So we did. Well, I went to an after game party. Of course my dad didn't care anything about going to that and that penthouse. Anyway, a man came up to me and said, my daughter's the best looking girl in the state of Arkansas. And I was doing this, a comedian back there in those days. Called Brother Dave. Dave Gardner. Just funny. Never off colored at all. And one of my favorite was, hey, James Lewis, put down that wheelbarrow. You know, you don't know nothing about machinery. And the giant, he's a Philadelphian. Anyway, I was acting a fool at that party and this man kept telling me that. He said, I'm going to prove it to you. So I told him, you know how to get there around the party? I know where all that is. So I'm standing there. Sunday, August 8, 1961. October. Beautiful blue cobalt sky, looking at that elevator. Best looking girl in the state of Arkansas. Was going to get off this elevator. That elevator opened up, said, oh, man, he wasn't kidding. I said, gloria, I'm thinking about it. It still brings tears in my eyes. And I think, but we walked out there and we walked out there, for some reason she just reached over and patted me on the back and I fell in love with her. I never heard of the root of bitterness, but it just left me. And I was, oh, let me tell you something. So I said, have you ever been in an airplane ride? No. Would you like to go? And my mother can go? So we went down and I told Bill about it. He said, sure, just put them in the back seat. And I had to show both of them how to fasten the seat belt. And we flew around. Her dad was there and they got back in the car. Bill said, kenneth, you take the mother, I'll take the daughter. Especially compared to women I ever saw in my life. And he wasn't kidding, Maude. They're just beautiful. Anyway, my father in law was a war hero. And for those that know, of course, I was in the United States army in 1957, but I have a picture of him on the back. D Day, 4th of June. No, D Day for June 44. First big red one over here where he was sitting. Two hash marks, four years of combat. The blue infantry braid, which meant he's in the infantry. And three rockers up and three rockers down with a diamond in the middle are his top soldiers. Sergeant major. And his next rank would have been second lieutenant. All of that in combat. The North African Campaign, 1st Infantry Division was under Patton. The North African Campaign, Battle of the Ardennes. That was the Battle of the Bulls. Here's just Sunday school teacher from Arkansas, came back home, ptsd, began to drink. And anyway, I said, gloria, I need to ask your dad's hand in marriage. And he said, well, yeah, I introduced you to her. And this little girl's head bouncing Back and forth. And it was Jan, and she's been in the ministry now over 50 years. So that's a little bit of background behind him. He had a massive heart attack. Now, he remarried. Monear never did, but his wife was a member of the First Baptist Church in Nashville, Arkansas. They rushed him to the hospital, and of course, Gloria and I flew over there as soon as we could. Her pastor said, copeland. I waited until there was absolutely nothing, no part of that operation left. And I took him down the Roman road. No more ptsd. He never took another drink. Glory to God forevermore. He went home at 77 years old. Isn't that magnificent? God doesn't fail, and it's a rich thing.

Kenneth Copeland (28:01)

And then I got to tell. Now I got to tell Gloria. She's raised in Church of Christ now in Baptist church. I said, I was sitting like this in that little chair. I said, gloria, she came. Walked over there. I said, come here. What if I were to. Oh, what if I were to speak for God or give my testimony? She said, hallelujah. I said, hallelujah. What? She said, well, the Bible your mother sent you that you never did read, said, ken, precious, seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you. She said, I just said, lord, I need things, so take my life and do something with it. We jumped up and hugged one another. January 1963. A man by the name of William Standish Reed was having a. A Christian Medical foundation meeting. They said, you know, anybody wants to come up? I turned around my mother, I said, that's something we ought to have. Yeah. I just grabbed Gloria and up we went. Well, all the men were praying for me and all the women praying for her, and, you know, hang on, let it go. I didn't know what they wanted me to do, but the men just gave up on me. So Gloria was standing right there, and they were still praying for her. So he said, come over here. Lay your hands on her. I said, no. Oh, my. Lay your hands on her. I did. I'm telling you, I'm patented by the power of God. Like, knocked me backwards. And I stumbled back up on this little makeshift platform. And then I got hold of Glo. I said, I got to go back to work. So Monday, so let me know what takes place. Well, the next day, she received. First time in her life she'd heard the term born again. And we met people that were lifelong friends that day, which she came back to Little Rock with. And they lived in Little Rock, but I knew so little about it. I'm flying this small airplane, and I'm just sitting there thinking and talking to myself just about as loud as I'm talking now. Just the drone of the airplane. And I said, lord, I don't know what. All I know about this. I must have heard the word anointing there, because I'd never Heard it in my life. I'm going to say some of those words again. And anything to this for me, I'm asking you to anoint them. Here it came again. Now I'm concerned. I got to talk to these people. I'm going to have to talk to ATC here again. Little Rock Approach. I thought, well, that worked. That's how little I knew landed. I'm telling you, I laid my hands on the airplane, the car, everything you could think of. And so that's where it began.

Kenneth Copeland (39:24)

Well, let's just take a look and see. Let's Read this. Deuteronomy 8:18. Thou shalt remember. Okay, we got to remember this. The Lord thy God, for it is he that gives you the power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant, which he swore. Fathers, as it is this day, this is covenant business. And this book is a book of blood covenants. The blood of animals, blood by circumcision, the sinless blood of Jesus. Let's Go over here to Galatians, chapter three, and then we'll go back and see what that curse looks like. 13th verse. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us, for it is written. Now, let me just stop right here. Brian. The integrity of this written word is absolutely essential. Rightly dividing it is essential. Understanding what it means when one receives communion. When I finally realized that I'm a blood brother with Jesus Christ, I'd rather die than to do anything to shame him ever, ever, ever. I don't remember now why our airplane was in a shop or something. Anyway, I was reading E.W. kenyon's book, the Blood Covenant. And this is back in the day when you could just take a shuttle. You know this. Listen to this. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ. That we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. I speak not after the manner of men, though it be but a man's covenant. Yet if it be confirmed, no man disannuls or adds thereto. Now, verse 29. And if ye be Christ, then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. Now we've got to go back over here and see what that's all about. So we'll go back here to the book of Deuteronomy. Once again. They had just come out of Egypt. There's about 2 million of them. So if you can imagine two of them on Mount Ebal and Mount Gerizim, there's a million of them over here on one side. And they're shouting across the valley of Shechem, they're shouting across there. And they have come and it comes back and said, now, this day. So chapter 27, Moses, with the elders of Israel, commanded the people, saying, keep all the commandments which I command you this day. And it shall be on the day when you pass over Jordan. Now, here's where we're going, and when we get over Jordan, we're going to run into trouble. It shall be on this day when you pass over Jordan unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, that thou shalt set thee up great stones and plaster them with plaster, and shall write upon the words of the law. Now let's stop right here. When Cain killed Abel, there was no law against it. So that began the law and the prophets. And once a prophet of God spoke something into this earth. There's no way the devil could get it out. He had it to deal with. And it started out, I'm going to paraphrase. There's coming one. He's coming. Well, he killed every prophet he could find, thinking, maybe this is the one. But there was a great announcement made one day in the Jordan River. Now, John the Baptist said, you know, I can't do this. I don't want to. Jesus said, this, you must do it that all these things be fulfilled. Now, when you go back to God, in the beginning, the word is Elohim, the plural. Let us make man in image, right? So now we're headed in that direction. And the word came. This is my beloved son. Hear ye him. And the devil says, I got him. So he was on every prophet. He was kill everybody he possibly could trying to get up to that point. But this is so important to you, to me, and to all believers. Now, verse 11. Moses charged the people the same day, saying, these shall sign. Stand on Mount Gerizim to bless the people when you come over Jordan. Simeon, Levi, Judah. Okay, that's our side of the mountain. Issachar, Joseph and Benjamin. That's the Apostle Paul's side of the mountain. These shall stand on Mount Ebal. Now, Ebal was alkaline. Nothing. I mean, couldn't anything grow on it? When you really see a picture of it, curse Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan and Naphtali. And the Levites shall speak and say unto all the men, cursed be the man that makes a graven image. A molten image. Well, I have no other gods before me. I make no graven image. That's commandment number two. And all the people answered and said, cursed is he that Seth light by the father of his mother. And all the people shall say, I may. There's roar going back across there. You probably could have heard it for miles. Cursed is he that removes a neighbor's landmark. Now come on over here to the 18th verse or 20th chapter. It shall come to pass if you will hearken diligently to the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and do all of his commandments, which I command thee. This day after, the Lord thy God will set thee high above all nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come on you and overtake you. If you'll hearken or listen unto the voice of Jehovah your God. Blessed shall you be in the city. Blessed shall you be in the field. Now, I want to stop right here. It's become the blessing of Abraham. But if you go to book one, he created everything and blessed it and saw that it was good. Yeah, and he created this whole garden and everything before he put the man in it. And if you take a good look at that, blessed is the first word the first man ever heard. So it was the blessing of Adam, but it came down to be the blessing of Abraham. For this reason, Abraham, 17th chapter of Genesis. Well, let's go there.

Kenneth Copeland (45:51)

You notice. Well, let me put it this way. You can't fight thoughts with thought thoughts. Jesus said, why take ye thought saying, you shall say unto this mountain. You can't think it and get anything done about it. You can't fight thoughts with. You have to fight thoughts with words. And faith filled words dominate the laws of sin and death. Now, Genesis 17. Abram, you need to go back and study Abram. This is some kind of guy now. I mean, all those kings came against him. And you know, old Chad said, you take, I'll take the people, I'll take the money. Abram said, don't ever let it be said that any man made Abram rich. But Almighty God, I don't want. I don't even want the strings out of your shoes. Well, he just armed his household. So, you know, there was a lot of supernatural stuff in that because they owned the night. Well, when I was in the US army, we ruled the night. I mean, that's. But that's where it started. I am El Shaddai. El Shaddai is the God who's more than enough. It really refers to a woman's breast, that when a woman has children, like Gloria for instance, she's everything. She could understand what they said, and I didn't have a clue. But she spent all day and all night with them. Well, I am El Shaddai. Walk before me and be perfect. Be blameless. I will make my covenant between me and thee and will multiply thee exceedingly. Abram fell on his face and you might. There's been a whole lot more times than once I fell on my face and God spoke with me. That was true when I went to Olu because I had $24,000 left. I'd had an open vision, I knew I was supposed to be there and I just fell on my face on this little house that they had arranged for us. I just fell flat on my face, man, just praying in the spirit just as fast as I could. And I stopped and thought, I wonder if he'd say anything if I was to. Well, it's about time. I couldn't get anything In Ed's wife. Get on your feet, man. I hit a military bracelet. I was standing there shaking all night, just shaking all over. He said, I sent you here. I'll take care of you here. Your ministry doesn't start out of school. It starts now. They can't make a minister out of you. I've already made a minister out of you. All they can do is train you. I went out and Gloria said, what took what happened? All night long. I said, well, there's my direction. So I had already been to orientation. Mrs. Campbell is printing the first quarter. I don't have any money. I said, Ms. Campbell, may I make a collect call? Yeah, dial nine. I called my dad. He said, where are you? I said, I'm a registrar's office in Oral Roberts University. Why? He said, eddie Matthews. Now, Eddie Matthews was in the construction business. He had no idea where I was. Eddie Matthews came by and brought a check and said it was for your ministry. I said, how much? $375.15. Wow. And I had about the 15 cents later. And I thought, well, Gloria and I'll get a candy bar and go broke. So now he said he'd take care of me. Paid that bill. And the Lord absolutely arrested me out there in front of the lrc. Go up to the sixth floor. And this just came out of my mouth. I said, no, that's the Vatican. I'm not supposed to be up there. Not in here, not out out here. Where any believer has it. They worked for me. First thing I had to do is find the elevator. I couldn't do it. I punched the fifth floor just open. Well, it was the first year of oru. I didn't know was the library didn't have anything in it yet. He said, floor six. Okay. Remember now, I'll take care of you here. That elevator opened. I walked up to this woman. I said, my name's Kenneth Copeland. I just registered for school. I'm a commercially rated pilot and I need all the help I can get. She said, tell Dean Zenuck, sir, I am a. I just registered today, and I'm a commercially rated pilot. I understand this minister used aircraft. I need all the help I can get. He went, I turned around. My name's Oral Roberts. I actually stuttered. Listen to this. I got my first faith lesson two weeks ago. I started to hire a new copilot. The spirit of the Lord said, that's the same spirit that said, I'll take care of you here. The spirit of the Lord said, I have a student coming and you're my man. Tell brother Luis we got our copilot. The spirit of God told him, no, don't hire that guy. I have a student coming that's supposed to have the job. He's not going to tell me that ahead of time. I'm going to have to walk by faith, which I did well. He became my father in the spirit. That kind of trust, I realized out there in front of that lrc, he arrested me. I actually had where I just kind of stuck. I realized I could have turned and walked off and said, no, I don't have any money. I'd have been a world of hurt because I didn't need any more money. Then later, this was so cool. A man by the name of Collin Steele was head of everything on the road. I was in two of the last tent meetings that they had and things. He said, I'll take care of you here. Things began to advance, and Brother Steele came to me and he said, kenneth, you're a grown man. I want you to drive the rev's car. Well, all right. And Brother Louise said, now don't start a conversation with him. You let him go first. So we were in Oklahoma City. He wouldn't let anything disturb his thinking because of the gift he had in his right hand. And it was so powerful, he just stopped. He had his butt. He said, kenneth, I jumped. People will always tell you you can't do it. Find out the will of God. Now, that's when you search this book, and that's when you pray and talk and think things about it. Confer no longer with flesh and blood. Get your job done at all cost. 1, 2, 3.

Kenneth Copeland (59:09)

But he said. He didn't say I am. He said, I know how to be abased. I know how to be hungry. I know how to have plenty. I know how. Didn't say I am. He said I know how. So you study his life and read everything. He's the same one. When he wrote to the church in Rome about Abraham. He's the same one. Well, let's turn over there. Romans 4. What shall we say then? Abram. Abraham, our father, as pertaining to the flesh hath found. For if Abraham are justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. What says the Scripture? Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness or just right standing with God. Now, to him that works in the reward not reckoned of the grace, but of debt, but to him that works not, but believes on him, justifies the ungodly. His faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also described the blessedness of the man to whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying blessed are they that inquiries are forgiven, his iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Now let's come over here to the well. The 13th verse for the promise. Now remember, every time you see the word promise, there's blood involved some way or another. For the promise that he should be heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, the promise made of none effect. Because the law works whereat. For there is. Now look at this. Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace to the end that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations before him, or like him, whom believe God, who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things that be not as though they were. I call my body. Well, I don't watch television at night. I still listen to brother Hagin, even though he's in heaven. I have a cell phone with no SIM card in it, so I have him right there. That's the way glory. And I got it was listening to it on tape. So I have it now. First words and last words. What I just used today, for instance, with Gloria. Goodnight, my love. I love the Lord, my God, with all of my heart, all of my soul, all of my mind and all of my strength. I love My neighbor as myself, fulfilling all the law and the prophets. In John 13, 34, 35, the master said, I give you a new commandment that you love one another as I have loved you. And tonight, Father, my neighbor. And I'll tell you who my neighbor is right now. Joe Biden. They announced that he has prostate cancer. This is not politics. This is life, brother. And if they held that back and he dies of prostate cancer, somebody is really guilty. Well, I'm not the judge. The book is. So I pray in the spirit for his whole family to be delivered. Jesus said, send laborers across their paths with the message. And I pray that as it is written. As it is written, tithing is absolutely essential for the prosperous life. Let's go back over there to the blessing of Abraham in the 28th chapter of Deuteronomy. Just so you know, the way I do my Bible, and that one that I just took back. David Barton was doing television with me one day. He said, where do you get a white highlighter? We were opening the Book of Hebrews, and at one time or another, I had just highlighted everything in there. So that's my favorite book. I have a few.

Kenneth Copeland (66:30)

Yes, we need to go back over there because we need to find out where the financial part of it comes. In Deuteronomy 26, from 12 through 15 are all of the. All of the tithes. I have listened to the voice of the Lord my God, and have done according to all you have commanded me. Look down from your holy habitation, from heaven and. And bless your people Israel, and the land which you've given us, that you have sworn unto our fathers. A land that flows with milk and honey. In the book of Exodus, he said, I'll have no poor in the Jubilee, the 50 years. In case you have poor, you send back everything they have. I won't have any poor people in my nation. Chapter 28. It will come to pass, but you're going to have to believe it. It will come to pass if you will hearken diligently. Now, that's different from just reading once in a while. This is spending time searching the Scriptures. This spend time. Our Father, which art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. I was praying that. And the Lord said. And I'd been. Been praying for a good while, studying, listening. I just started praying. He said, you look up. Give us this day our daily bread. He said, what is your daily bread? He said, you, daily bread is going to be to the nations. Oh, really? I didn't know we were going to come to a place where we are now. Let me give you my own personal situation. We have a board of directors. They set my salary. I don't. They do according to the IRS guidelines, and they don't let me be in a room when they do. And since the ministry has airplane, if for some reason or other that I use that airplane before God, but for vacation or something for my family, there is an internal revenue thing for that, and I pay taxes on it. The reason this ministry uses an airplane, as I was saying, is because we started out and I was praying about this. We were just getting started, and we were there in Tulsa, and I came in from school. I said, gloria, I have a disturbance in my spirit. Now, the man that owned that house we were renting, he was a lawyer. Well, I'm going to stay four more years and go to seminary. And I had him write the Kenneth Copeland Evangelistic Association. I'd already had him do the papers. So the Arkansas river, that's just one house. And I was in the riverbed there. I went down in there and prayed in the spirit till it was just about dark. And all I heard again was, nations, nations, nations. So I started up out of there. And then the Lord said, you, wife is precious to me. I have given her to you. She is to you. What temper is to steal. Well, I was in metal shop in high school, and you had to temper. I was making tools, and you had to temper it or you'd break it. But this nation's thing came up, but I pretty well forgot about it. So school's out. I'm ready to go. What I'm going to do here in the summer, I don't know. And I sat down there, I had my suit on, I had my Bible, and I had my legal pad. And I said, okay, Lord. And down in my spirit, he said, I want you to go back to Fort Worth, Lord. Now he said, I'll take care of you. You know what happened to you in your hometown. I don't want to go back to Fort Worth. The greatest part of your destiny Is there. Phone rang. Gloria said, brother Nichols wants to talk to you. Well, he was pastor of Grace Temple Church. And so Gloria and I and John and Kelly were rebaptized in water there in that church. So he said, my pastor, when can you come to me for a meeting? I said, well, Brother Nichols, I'd like to say I need to check my schedule, but I won't have one. Now, we had had a devastating car wreck at Marshall, Texas, and Halloween night before. And the only car I had was an old, worn out Oldsmobile that had about 90,000 miles on it when we got it. And that's the only car I had. I'm nursing this thing down the highway, so. But of course, when I got there, I had another car to drive. At least I was for my folks. I stayed there with our folks. We walked in there and mother came in there and said, gloria, come out. I said, gloria, I said, mama, you got any tapes? Yeah. Look in there. They had a thing there. The previous owner had a home screen. They just set this thing out and set this tape recorder on it. You know, the thing about that big. There's a white box, huh? On the first side, you can write your own ticket with God. And the flip side, Paul's revelation. Kenneth E. Hagin. That's the first time I ever heard anything like that in my life. I said, gloria, we have to have everything this man has. And that started that and the teaching that came from both of these men. Now, I want you to notice this. This is very important, the way this is worded. It will. It said.

Kenneth Copeland (74:05)

There you are. That's his prosperity message. And to be strong enough to witness while he's in there. I've done a lot of prison ministry with Mike Barber. It started really before that, and I won't go into all the details, but I was teaching in a prison and one of these men said, copeland, we like to play baseball in here. Yeah, I don't blame you. I like baseball myself. These little old short bats, terrible. I said, what did you have in mind? He said, a 36 inch Joe Jackson. And he said, it has to be a Louisville Slugger. I don't want anything else. And the other guys said, yeah, these crummy little bats we've been getting. There was a prison and I said, you have to do it in faith. I said, get your Bibles. Let's go to the Book of Matthew, see what the master said. And so we agreed. The prison truck came in there and had a big box. It wasn't on the. Wasn't on the list. He said, I was supposed to bring these here, but there's nothing labeled on the box. I don't know what's in there. One of them was a Louisville Slugger, 36 inch Joe Jackson. So to him, that's prosperity. Because he prayed about this thing. He had learned how. Now one of them had 700 years in prison. Yeah. Wow. He walked me to the gate. Now, Lawrence Harvey was warden in the Huntsville unit at that time. And two, by the way, I baptized a serial killer named Steven Moran in the Barrie County Jail of San Antonio. And he kidnapped a woman. He had killed 24 women. He kidnapped a woman, Margie Cole. She kept telling him she's the only one that loved him. And he told her, if you don't shut up, I'm going to kill you. No, you're not going to kill the only person. Well, can I put my tape in? Yeah. Well, it was a tape of me preaching. And he slammed on the brakes and said, who said that? And looked in the back seat. The voice said, stephen, this is your last chance, son. She led him to the Lord right there. Well, I was on there as his spiritual advisor. Well, they only had to convict him of one. And they did. He said, I don't want any reprieve. He said, I only have one 5 year old boy and I don't want him to know I even existed in my terrible, terrible life. He let me know that he wanted me to meet him in Golden, Colorado. I'm on his book there. He said, I never heard of any of this they're going on with. But he said, they're just clearing their books. I said, now, Stephen, you have time to become an expert on prayer. Well, yeah, he said, I'll have time enough to do that. So I said, I. Now listen, you promise me you will pray about anything you do from now on. I give you my word. So he went upstairs, he got up there and his cell door was ajar. And he told me, he said, I looked, I could take my sheets and drop that out over there and I'm gone. But I promised Brother Copeland I'd pray. And he said, I said, I got on my knees and I said, father, in the name of Jesus. I fell asleep and I slept all night long. He said, I realized it was a trap. They were going to kill me on the other side of that wall. Because when they came in there and found me awake and my cell door not shut, he said, they look kind of stupid now. Fast forward. We were caged like this. There was a. And I'm talking to him like this. And I asked him, I said, everything all right? Oh, yeah, yeah. He said, now everything's fine. He said, I'm fixing to go home. He said, I can hardly wait. I said, stephen, I'm going to tell you, do me a favor. The scripture says that grace is enough. Yeah. I said, let me know, will you? So since I was his spiritual advisor, I was as close as that wall right there, just a few feet away, the little railing here. I could see him. He could look down there at me. And the Lights were bright. And when that Lethan injection start, it makes a bang. So, you know you're going to be gone here in a few seconds. And he looked down there at me and two thumbs up and he's gone. Grace was more than enough. A serial killer. But I had to go to the book when I baptized him in that. I mean, they had their pistols like this, you know, they have a tub there, as you know. And I told him, I said, gentlemen, everything will be all right. When he came up out of that water, I mean to tell you, if there was. If any man's face I have ever seen was aglow, it was his. Something had to happen first. Number one, he gave me his words. I took it. Number two, he did what I asked him to do. He became an expert on prayer. And he's leading other people to the Lord and praying for their families and for their lives and for their. Now they're prospering in the jail. So you can see where prosperity has a whole. Look at it like this. It's a pie, and there's one slice in it here. That's money. And it's money enough to take care of everything you need. It's money enough to be out of debt. I taught that at the minister's conference one year, and the pastor came back the next year and told me what happened. He said, I went home and he said, my wife and I prayed and the congregation prayed and we're going to build this new sanctuary. So he said, I went to the bank, I went in and he said, I asked him if I could see so and so. And they said, pastor, he's working on your loan now. And he said, I went in there and oh, he grabbed me by the hand. He said, pastor, it's looking good. He said, well, I just want to tell you, we decided to do it debt free. He said, he changed and he looked at me and I will not repeat what he called me. You know, you can't do this without us. He would have had that spirit in his life. It's because they're money that he borrowed. There's this word, kine, up here. K I N E. Do you see it?

Kenneth Copeland (82:11)

I need this. These mikes are our kind. This is our kind. Today we need money enough to pay for this and money enough where you don't have a debt on any of it. You don't go down to Sears and Roebuck and buy something like this on debt. This is an expensive piece of equipment. But your ministry doesn't need to be have to go borrow money at the bank things that is to prosper in your ministry and to do it without debt. So you just take it a day at a time, whatever's necessary and put back. Absolutely tithe Gloria. And I tithe personally. The church tithes, the ministry tithes. We sow into other ministries. And then by doing so over the years, the money that this ministry has saved by not owing is over $53 million. Anything the ministry purchases that goes up, that's prosperous. Now there's something I want to get to here. He will establish you a holy people unto himself. That's verse nine. All the people of the earth shall see that you're called by my name, saith the Lord. That is huge. He said to Solomon, build a place. Bill told David, build a place for my name. You won't do it, but your son will. A place for his name Emic is a place for his name. There's no debt on it. It's just the opposite of this really. The Lord shall open unto you his good treasure, the heaven to give rain upon your land in his season, to bless the work of your hand that you may lend to many nations. And not borrow. Wow. You'll make you the head and not the tail. That's prosperity. I don't want to be the tail. I want to be the head. But it was the head a little bit at a time. Didn't happen overnight. Of course not. Usually not be beneath if you hearken to. Listen to the commandments. Now, just turn this page. Now, here we go. Deuteronomy 28:14. And thou shalt not go aside from the words which shall command thee this day to the right hand or to the left, or another God shall serve them. But it shall come to pass if you will not listen to the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and do all of his commandments and statutes which I command you this day. Now get this. All these curses will come on you and overtake you. Cursed shall you be in the city. Cursed shall ye be in the field. The Lord shall send. Well, no, he doesn't send it. They're here. It really should be. He'll have to allow. Because you're not hearkening. You're not listening. In other words, listen to what he said. Cursing, vexation. Rebuke all you set your hand to do until you perish quickly because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou shalt forsake me. Consumption, inflammation, extreme burning, no rain. Look at this one. 46. They shall be on you for a sign and a wonder, and upon your seed forever, because you serve me, not the Lord thy God, with joyfulness and with gladness of heart for the abundance of all things. Well, the 61st verse then. Just also. Every sickness and every plague which is not written in the book of this law will the Lord bring upon you till you be destroyed. But we've been redeemed from it. That doesn't belong to us. Spiritual death, sickness and disease. Spiritual life born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, living in divine health and prosperity. And the prosperous part grows is like this. Gloria and I went before the Lord. We had been on 700 radio stations, which was somewhat of a record. But then the Lord called us on television. We'd gone to our prayer cabin in Arkansas and we stopped at Denny's for breakfast. And I looked at her and she kind of looked at me, and I said, are you thinking what I'm thinking? She said, you first. I said, television. And she said, yeah. How are we going to do it? I don't know. I don't have any idea. Well, it's going to take more money. So we began to write out our agreement covenants with one another. We have never, in a partner letter ever put any kind of a price in there. Except one time when we went on that television. Our whole ministry budget the year before Was a little over the $375,000. And I put in there for the price of a pair of tennis shoes. 1295. Well, you can see inflation is taking care of that. We can do this together. That's the one and only time our radio bill was 400,000amonth the next year. Well, taken care of. All of this has the difference between the blessing and the cursing. Now it does good to read all of this and then read it in the amplified and I mean the diseases themselves are actually listed there.

Kenneth Copeland (90:43)

Hebrews, chapter seven. There's an interesting scripture in first John. We have known and believed the love that God has for us. You believe God loves you? Oh, yes. Brother Copeland, I don't know. What are we redeemed from stranger from the covenants of promise in the book of Ephesians. An alien from the commonwealth of Israel without hope and without God in the world. Are you going to get healed? Oh, brother Copeland, I sure hope so. The right kind of hope is necessary because faith is the substance of things hoped for. So what's my hope? Brother Copeland, you're going to hear it. Get healed. Absolutely. How do you know? My hope is strong, therefore I have faith. I fully expect it. What if it doesn't happen? I missed it. Not God. I missed it. Here I'd hear. Or there's some little something. I've got something against somebody that. Forgive those who have any ought against you. 11th chapter of book of Mark. Anyway, I want you to see this in the book of Hebrews in the seventh chapter, without all contradiction. The less is blessed of the better. That's chesed. When you see the word loving kindness, that's chesed is the way you pronounce it. Chesed. There was a British missionary and gave it to me like this. He said I was headed back to London and he said that somebody wanted me to go see this native guy. And so he said I went And I taught on chesed. If you see the big elephant and the little elephant, and the big elephant raises out of here, you about to get a taste of chesed. But the little elephant gets exactly what his mama gets. Equal. Let this mind be in you. Which was also in Christ Jesus, who thought it not robbery to call equal with God, where we're joint heirs with Christ. And he said, come, come, come, everybody. God wants us to touch fingers. That's the way they made covenants. They would slit their fingers like this. And they became blood brothers. And you walk up to the bank and that's the way they. There's no way that there's going to be anything wrong here because we're brothers here. Men that die receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witness that he's alive. So we take our tithe. Go to Mark, chapter 10. This is where people get all out of shape. Verse 17. When he was gone forth in the way, there came one running and kneeled to him. So now get this picture.

Kenneth Copeland (108:22)

Well, let's turn over here to Philippians chapter four. The answer is right there. Now, you remember, this church was a convict church. Now here we're back at that passage. 4, 11. No, let's back up before that. This is so important. Verse 4. Rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful or worry. Don't be careful for nothing but in everything but prayer and supplication. With thanksgiving. Huh? With thanksgiving. What you say long enough will finally get down in your heart and begin to control your life. I had said over and over, I don't like exercise. I just. I don't want to fool with it. I'm all suited up. I'm going to obey God. And I got in there and I grabbed that thing and I said, I just hate this. No. Oh, God, forgive me. I love it. I got on the treadmill. He said, kenneth, I sacrificed my body for years. Now you're sacrificing. That's what he was after all the time. It didn't have to do with just my body. It's to keep me going, keep me moving. Finally, Greg. Brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely can be true, but not lovely. Whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report. If there be any virtue and if there be any praise, think on these things, those things which you have both learned and received and heard and seen in me. Do it. And the God of peace, Shalom. Nothing missing, nothing broken shall be with you now. Shalom. Hebrew for prosperity. Think about this. The Lord says, now, I want you to sow so much into that ministry. He asked me to do it. So something is missing in my life. I go to Mark ten. He's going to replace it tenfold. A hundredfold, Some ten, some thirty, some a hundred. Depends on what my faith and what my level is. Don't ever let it be said ever that God. God has ever put any kind of a sickness or a disease on somebody to teach them something. Book of James, don't you dare do that. Now, if something happens and he teaches you from it, that's different. But he didn't do it.

Kenneth Copeland (121:13)

A board of directors. And on our compensation, they are men that have no way of receiving anything financially. Now everyone else in there, they have something to say about it. But these men that are on that compensation committee, then they will meet, they take all of the finances of the ministry, they take everything in account, all of it. And have since day one. They take everything that has to do with anything in the account of the ministry. That's first what I call the rolling stock. We didn't build the out here. Brother Roberts built a prayer tower. We built a chapel. First building on the property. 1500 acres of land, an abandoned airport. We didn't put this airport back into operation for years and years before we ever touched it. That's not worth the money. Meant we were keeping our airplane somewhere else. That's fine. We get in the car and drive. But you have these men where you sit down and you discuss it. You take the finances of the ministry, you take all of this put together. What is this part doing? What is this department doing? We had a worldwide communion service one time. A man by the name Thomas Clyde McGee. And every time you use your satellite in your car, you say, thank God for Tommy Boye, a born again, Holy Ghost baptized believer with a slide rule. Put that first satellite out there 24,000 miles and made it in the orbit of this earth. Did you ever hear of the Blackwood Brothers Quartet? I mean, if they were doing a concert, I mean, Christians would come from all over to see the. His wife was a Blackwood and they called them birds. And a man by the name of Halverson would get down in front of Clyde and he'd say, birds. Birds. Come out birds. Clyde, you haven't yet. Yeah, I know what it means. Birds. And he said, kenneth, I'd get hung up and I'd go home and I'd say, baby dawn, let's pray. And the Lord would give him the answer. He put the first satellite out there. So I called him. I said, clyde, the Lord has directed us to have a worldwide communion service. And can you do that? Yeah. I said, how? He said, I don't know. But you know Philippians 4? You know the little plastic cups we do communion with today?

Kenneth Copeland (125:30)

What did they dress with leaves? It was the fig tree. And, oh, I'm telling you, he upset. I mean, he upset everybody on that coat. They went their way, found the colt tied, and certain of them stood there. What are you going to do with it? He said, like he said, and with many garments in the way, and others cut off boughs, and they went crying, Hosanna. Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord. Blessed is the kingdom of our Father David cometh in the name of the Lord. Hosanna. Oh, you tell my. Listen. He really caused love, trouble, friendship then, and I like to think of that like this too. They weren't worshiping the colt. He was the carrier. I'm the colt, and he's riding my bike. Seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if happily, he might find anything thereon. The fig tree and the leaves are supposed to be there at the same time. Nothing but leaves, for the time of figs was not yet, well, the leaves were there too early. And he answered and said to it, no man eat fruit of you hereafter forever. And his disciples heard it now. He had gone into the temple the night before and came out and waited till the day to do anything. He went back to Bethany and he did all. Is it not written, my house shall be called a nation and prayer? You've made it a den of thieves. So now when he cursed that fig tree, he didn't look back, he just headed Jerusalem. He didn't pay attention to it. Peter calling remembrance, said master or rabbi, behold the fig tree. This fig tree paid the price for that one in the garden. Praise God. Whether he did or not, I like it. Oh, wow. It looked good to me, which you cursed as withered away. I mean, this thing just was nothing. But the fig tree provided the opportunity. Have faith in God, the reference says. Have the faith of God. For verily I say unto you, this is a whosoever shall say unto this mountain, be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea. And shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass, he shall have whatsoever he says. And in the therefore I say unto you what things soever you desire. When you pray, believe that you receive them. And when you stand praying, forgive if you have ought against any, that your Father also in heaven forgive you your trespasses. If you don't forgive, neither will your Father in heaven and forgive you. And that's it. We stop, pray and listen. And that's what built this ministry, this and the other verses around it. Gloria and I our family. John Terry, George Kelly, both sides of our family honored our fathers and mothers all the days of our lives. And Jeremy is pastoring a church up in Green River Falls, Colorado. When he I wore a vest and pocket watch he get me a vest I peach he'd been preaching all his life. This then is the bottom line. A book of covenants. It's the holy Bible. And this is just as much God as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.