The Kenneth Copeland Interview (EP 186)

Summary

The Bryce Crawford Podcast – Episode 186

Guest: Kenneth Copeland
Host: Bryce Crawford
Date: March 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a rare, in-depth interview with Kenneth Copeland, a prominent and often controversial prosperity gospel preacher. Host Bryce Crawford approaches the conversation as a respectful challenger, openly disagreeing with the prosperity gospel but seeking to understand its scriptural roots and implications from Copeland’s perspective. The episode weaves Copeland’s life story with detailed dialogue on faith, prosperity, suffering, and what it means to abound in Christ.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Kenneth Copeland’s Early Life and Testimony

• Copeland’s roots: He shares childhood memories growing up in Texas during the Great Depression, the influence of his family, stories about aviation, and his passion for music and performance ([04:08] – [18:46]).
• Spiritual upbringing: Raised in a Christian home with discipline and respect; parents were strong believers ([18:55]).
• Conversion experience: Copeland details his encounter with Christ in 1962, the impact on his life and marriage, and embracing ministry ([23:03] – [31:39]).
• Notable moment:

  “Profanity was gone from that day to this.” — Kenneth Copeland, describing his conversion ([27:59]).

2. The Birth of His Ministry

• Kenneth Copeland Ministries: Began in January 1964, with nearly six decades of global outreach ([31:39] – [33:45]).
• Calling and rest: Copeland emphasizes God’s design for rest and Sabbath, a lesson he personally learned in 2004 after health challenges ([33:46] – [36:41]).

3. Defining Prosperity and Abundance

• Scriptural foundations: Copeland roots his definition of prosperity in John 10:10, John 3:16, and Deuteronomy 8:18 ([38:14]): prosperity begins with salvation and extends to wholeness in every area of life.

  “True prosperity starts with John 3:16. That’s where it starts.” — Kenneth Copeland ([38:41])

• Prosperity as multifaceted: More than financial gain; includes health, relationships, spiritual well-being, and ability to bless others ([38:14] – [73:38]).

4. Scriptural Defense of Prosperity

• Covenant theology: Cites Galatians 3 and Deuteronomy 27–28 to argue that prosperity and blessing are part of God’s covenant promises ([39:24] – [45:46]).
• Abrahamic blessing:

  “Blessed is the first word the first man ever heard.” — Kenneth Copeland ([45:46])

• Tithing and sowing: As spiritual laws for increased provision ([80:39] – [111:17]).

5. Addressing Objections & Suffering

• The “thorn in the flesh” of Paul: Copeland offers the interpretation that Paul’s thorn was not physical sickness, but cares and worries for the churches ([58:21]).

  “What if you go, it was the care and worry about all the churches that was the thorn in his side.” — Kenneth Copeland ([58:21])

• On healing and unanswered prayer: Copeland distinguishes individual will, faith, and spiritual authority in receiving from God ([57:27] – [58:08]).
• On failure to prosper:

  “Don’t quit. Absolutely. Necessity to tithe... What if it doesn’t happen? I missed it. Not God.” — Kenneth Copeland ([90:30] – [90:43])

6. Prosperity in Every Circumstance

• Testimonies from prison ministry: Prosperity contextualized for prisoners; “What does he need to prosper? He just needs Jesus. That’s his prosperity message.” ([74:05])
• Notable prison testimony: Copeland tells the story of baptizing serial killer Steven Moran and witnessing transformation through faith ([74:02] – [80:39]).
• Material stewardship: The expansion of KCM and stories of giving reflect the importance of blessing others ([99:19] – [101:41]).

7. Dangers of Wealth and the Heart’s Throne

• Rich young ruler: Copeland affirms the love of money, not money itself, as the root of evil; the heart’s allegiance determines whether wealth is a blessing or snare ([93:51] – [95:31]).

  “Not that they have them. The riches have them.” — Kenneth Copeland ([95:29])

8. Misconceptions and Application

• Common misconception: That prosperity teaching promises automatic wealth; Copeland insists it requires personal revelation, faith, and “diligent study of this book” ([105:07] – [105:32]).
• Testing God with money: Copeland distances himself from the notion that tithing is a transaction to get money back, stressing faith and obedience instead ([106:52] – [107:18]).
• Balance in blessing: Enjoyment of God’s gifts vs. idolatry; setting boundaries and accountability in ministry ([119:54] – [123:48]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the essence of prosperity:

  “Being rich is more than enough to take care of what you have and enough left over to help somebody take care of themselves.” — Kenneth Copeland ([00:07], [54:12])

• Bryce’s skepticism:

  “The thing that’s more attractive to people about this prosperity, health and wealth message is those things rather than Jesus.” — Bryce Crawford ([114:29])

• Copeland on contentment:

  “I call my body. Well, I don’t watch television at night. I still listen to brother Hagin… That’s the way Gloria and I got it — was listening to it on tape.” ([59:08])

• On giving:

  “We have done that time and time and time and time and time again.” — Copeland, regarding helping those in need ([100:28])

• On responsibility and faith:

  “Everything has to be based on this book. A diligent study of this book…” — Kenneth Copeland ([104:09])
  “If the money is choked, check your love life.” — (quoting Oral Roberts) ([97:53])

• On assurance in God’s provision:

  “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. We shouldn’t want. We lack nothing with Jesus.” — Bryce & Copeland ([119:17])

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• Copeland’s Early Life & Testimony: [04:08] – [31:39]
• Start of Ministry & Sabbatical Lessons: [31:39] – [36:41]
• Defining Prosperity, Scriptural Rationale: [38:14] – [45:46]
• Debate: Suffering, “Thorn in the Flesh”: [54:03] – [58:37]
• Prosperity in Adversity/Prison: [73:38] – [80:39]
• Abuse and Cautions of Prosperity Message: [87:26] – [101:41]
• Practical Application & Closing Reflections: [102:49] – [129:08]

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Flow & Tone

The conversation alternates between Copeland’s affable anecdotes and robust scriptural teaching, punctuated by Bryce’s respectful yet persistent challenges. The tone is warm, sometimes lighthearted (Copeland sings to his wife, tells family stories) but also earnest, particularly as both men grapple with deep issues of suffering, wealth, and purpose in Christian life.

Bryce clearly loves Christ and strives to keep the focus on Jesus rather than the periphery of material blessing, urging listeners to seek the Giver over the gifts. Copeland, while unwavering on prosperity, frequently brings the conversation back to covenant, faith, and practical stewardship — presenting prosperity as a holistic, spiritual, and material reality always anchored in love for Christ.

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Concluding Reflections

Host’s perspective:
Bryce encourages listeners to “thank God for the true gospel… not that God just wants material things for our life, but that God wants us and that he is the prize even if we lose everything, because that is the goal.” ([02:14])

Copeland’s final words:
He emphasizes the Bible as a covenant document for life and prosperity, with faith, obedience, and love as the key to everything God intends for his people.

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Summary for New Listeners:
This rare conversation lays out Kenneth Copeland’s full vision of the prosperity gospel, tested and probed by Bryce Crawford’s scripturally-based skepticism. It’s as much about interpretation, faith, legacy, and accountability as it is about money. You’ll come away with a nuanced understanding of both the appeal and the most common pitfalls of prosperity teaching, as well as a reminder to value Christ above all treasures.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

It's hard for me to wrap my

[Bryce Crawford]

mind around this idea that God wants everyone to be wealthy, everyone to be healthy, and things like that.

[Kenneth Copeland]

When we didn't say that he wants everybody to prosper. Being rich is more than enough to take care of what you have and enough left over to help somebody take care of themselves.

[Bryce Crawford]

The thing that's more attractive to people about this prosperity, health and wealth message is those things rather than Jesus. Where do you find, hey, this is something I enjoy versus this is something that may be sitting on the throne of my heart.

[Podcast Host]

Before we get into this interview, there's a couple things that I want to tell you guys about. Kenneth Copeland is a prosperity gospel preacher who teaches another gospel that says God wants every Christian to be healthy, wealthy and prosper. And if you aren't doing those things as a Christian, then it is your fault. I want to clarify. I do not agree with the prosperity gospel. That's the whole reason why we sat down when we got the opportunity to do the first sit down interview with Kenneth Copeland in over 15 years. I made it very clear to them. I was like, hey guys, I disagree. I'm going to be very respectful in the conversation, but I do not agree with the prosperity gospel. And so this interview is a little bit different where I sat back and asked a lot more questions from a journalistic perspective. Whereas I wanted to understand where he gets this doctrine from. I really don't understand. I want to know how he finds it in Scripture, what that looks like to the person, and ask a lot of questions and do more digging to let the idea speak for itself so that we can understand why the true gospel is important. You know, I believe Paul makes a good case in Second Corinthians that sometimes God allows a thorn in our side to keep us humble and reliant on him. And so it was fun to hear hear his perspective and challenge him, even though I disagree and I want to be very cautious by going into this. But also my heart was first Timothy five. Kenneth Copeland is in the latter parts of his age. He's a little bit older. And I tried to do my best to best to hold to first Timothy 5, which says, do not rebuke an old man, but appeal to him as a father. And so I tried to come at him with challenges as if I was challenging my father and not a harsh rebuke, quote unquote. So I pray that as you watch this interview, you listen to it. He's going to tell a lot of his stories. And then when we get into the prosperity part that the questions that I ask, I pray that they compel you

[Bryce Crawford]

in such a way to thank God

[Podcast Host]

for the true gospel.

[Bryce Crawford]

And not that God just wants material

[Podcast Host]

things for our life, but that God wants us and that he is the

[Bryce Crawford]

prize even if we lose everything, because that is the goal.

[Podcast Host]

I love you guys. Thank you again to the Copeland network. You guys were extremely hospitable to us

[Bryce Crawford]

and welcoming us to have this sit down interview and enjoy this episode.

[Podcast Host]

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[Bryce Crawford]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Bryce Crawford]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Bryce Crawford]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Bryce Crawford]

I'm Bryce and today we have an incredible guest sitting down with us. I mean, from my knowledge, this man hasn't done a sit down interview in over a decade. And so we're excited to welcome Kenneth Copeland with us this morning. How are you?

[Kenneth Copeland]

I'm doing good.

[Bryce Crawford]

Good. Well, thank you for being with us.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Well, in the household of faith. So if you just stay with it, everything will work.

[Bryce Crawford]

Amen. Well, thank you for being with us. I'm grateful that you're here and letting us come and visit you and be with you. But, you know, for anyone that doesn't know anyone, anything about you, you know, next generation, you know, who are you where are you from? What was that like?

[Kenneth Copeland]

I was born in Lubbock, Texas, December 6, 1936. Of course, that was right at the tail end of the Great Depression. And then my dad moved us to Abilene, Texas and we lived on 733 Sunset Drive. And my dad brought a brand new nice house for $1,750 and he worked for Drawns Business College. So since he was in education then During World War II, his fuel wasn't rationed and so he traveled a lot. And then there in Abilene, I grew up there. And then 1952 we moved to Fort Worth. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to be an Abilene Eagle. Well, let me fast forward about this far. When I was in high school, Poly High School had never in a baseball, track, everything else, but not in football. And so my class and my quarterback was Hunter Ennis. And he and I are still really close friends today. And so we did it. We went all the way up. Guess who we played in the final? The Abilene Eagles. And they beat us 46 to nothing. But so far I believe. Go Polly. They're going to get there one of these days. Well, and while I was in high school, they did a Teen times foremost dairy company did a teen time talent scout and I was 18 and of course to sing. I tried out for it. And there was a girl in high school, her name was Jimmy Faye Powell. And Jimmy Faye could just play. And so we went to the WBAP Fort Worth studios here and found out what all to do. And the set was set up like, you know, like a drugstore. And Pat Boone was the was the head of it. So I sang several things to audition. And of course my big song was Old Man River. They said that's probably not going to go on what we want to do. How about she Wore Blue Velvet? Well, that's more like it. But Money Honey over there. It's more like what we want.

[Bryce Crawford]

I like that. That sounded great.

[Kenneth Copeland]

So I won it three times and got a little radio and I won it three more times. And we went to the studio and counted it down to 10 and turned on the switch and it was color. It was Friday evening Beaulieu barn dance. I had on a white hat and sang Ghost Riders in the Sky. Praise. And Pat and I and the family are still very, very, very close.

[Bryce Crawford]

Awesome.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Anyway, in coming to Fort Worth, there were things that took place here in my life. And I had a hit record back in 1957 called Pleasure of Love. I'd been in the army and then Terry, my first daughter was born while I was in the service there. And of course, you know, she's just precious. And of course George Pearsons is my son in law and he pastors EMIC church. Anyway, I went out there trying to get in that entertainment business and it didn't work. But out of that did come that recording contract, out of that deal. So a lot of pressure for sure and I gave up on it. I just quit. I went to my dad. Now my dad said, kenneth, if I was to unzip your head, wouldn't anything but motorcycles and airplanes come out? Well, right there at the end of World War II, they saw that the war was practically over anyway, so there was a man by the name of Wooten in Abilene and the Wootton Hotel and a number of things there. And someone called my dad, I never did know who it was, and said, we're going to fly Mr. Wootton's airplane. Would you and your son like to come? Well now, anyone that's familiar with Amelia Earhart, it was that little Lockheed Electra that she flew. That's what it was. Oh, cool. I can see it in my mind right now. The guy got everything settled in the back seat. I was already in the front. He looked over there at me and he said, don't you touch anything. I sat there like this and I was off the ground. Well, now we talk about. Now you have what you say, but I didn't know that then. And I was walking away and my dad had me by the hand. I was eight or nine years old. I said, daddy, I'm going to do that. He said, what? I'm going to fly airplanes. He said, boy, you can do it. Well then came to Fort Worth and I remember my dad saying to my mother, Aw and Vanetta Copeland, and my grandfather was Chum Owens, pull up his blood Cherokee. He went to sign in for the draft and they said, no, we can't use. That's your nickname, Chum. What's your name? We. What does that stand for? William Elmer. He named himself that day a Cherokee man. Anyway, then he's my grandfather and just, oh, what a guy. Anyway, we go out there on that old farm and spent a lot of time there. So he went to work for National Line Insurance Company there in Little Row. It now has merged with other people. There was a car lot in Fort Worth at 1010 Texas Street. I understand it isn't there anymore, but it was then I worked there for a man by the name of Bill Golightly, and he also owned an aviation company. So I came home and told my dad, I said, you said, you see that I got an education. I said, I want to learn how to fly. So he shook my hand, he said, all right, I'll stay with you till he gets commercial and you own your own. So I soloed August 24th at 4 o' clock in the afternoon at Meacham Field, 12 years before DFW Love Field in Dallas. And most people won't understand this, but aviators will. The final approach fix on an instrument landing system is called the outer marker. Well, Jim Couch had been a military instructor, and I'd had a couple of other instructors that weren't all that good. So Bill brought him in and he said, you want to learn how to fly or just waller around in the sky? I said, I want to learn how. Can you take it? I said, I can if you can dish it out. But needless to say, he did teach me how to fly. I could fly. So I lined up out there in this little Cessna. 15523 echoes ready for takeoff. Roger that. Two three echo, your number eight to follow a DC3 just outside the outer marker. Do they have something painted on a barn out here or something? I said, sir, this is my first solo. All right, Two Three Echo, can you hold your heading? Yes, sir. Can you hold your altitude? Yes, sir. You now turn base, meaning I'm leaving downwind. Turn base and then final, as soon as you see that DC3 go under your wing, you can turn base. So I did it. I did three touch and goes by myself. I am a pilot. I don't know anything, but I'm a pilot. And I went on to that. And I got my private license. Now I'm working on them. And then I kept working at that and now I need a multi engine rating. And I'm just going up the ladder in the aviation world. And TCU was playing Arkansas in 1961 for the Southwest Conference championship. And so I asked, I told Bill, my dad bought cars from him. How about my dad going? He said, there's no place to stay. I said, well, yeah, maybe. I said, dad, call up there and see if you can get the penthouse. So we did. Well, I went to an after game party. Of course my dad didn't care anything about going to that and that penthouse. Anyway, a man came up to me and said, my daughter's the best looking girl in the state of Arkansas. And I was doing this, a comedian back there in those days. Called Brother Dave. Dave Gardner. Just funny. Never off colored at all. And one of my favorite was, hey, James Lewis, put down that wheelbarrow. You know, you don't know nothing about machinery. And the giant, he's a Philadelphian. Anyway, I was acting a fool at that party and this man kept telling me that. He said, I'm going to prove it to you. So I told him, you know how to get there around the party? I know where all that is. So I'm standing there. Sunday, August 8, 1961. October. Beautiful blue cobalt sky, looking at that elevator. Best looking girl in the state of Arkansas. Was going to get off this elevator. That elevator opened up, said, oh, man, he wasn't kidding. I said, gloria, I'm thinking about it. It still brings tears in my eyes. And I think, but we walked out there and we walked out there, for some reason she just reached over and patted me on the back and I fell in love with her. I never heard of the root of bitterness, but it just left me. And I was, oh, let me tell you something. So I said, have you ever been in an airplane ride? No. Would you like to go? And my mother can go? So we went down and I told Bill about it. He said, sure, just put them in the back seat. And I had to show both of them how to fasten the seat belt. And we flew around. Her dad was there and they got back in the car. Bill said, kenneth, you take the mother, I'll take the daughter. Especially compared to women I ever saw in my life. And he wasn't kidding, Maude. They're just beautiful. Anyway, my father in law was a war hero. And for those that know, of course, I was in the United States army in 1957, but I have a picture of him on the back. D Day, 4th of June. No, D Day for June 44. First big red one over here where he was sitting. Two hash marks, four years of combat. The blue infantry braid, which meant he's in the infantry. And three rockers up and three rockers down with a diamond in the middle are his top soldiers. Sergeant major. And his next rank would have been second lieutenant. All of that in combat. The North African Campaign, 1st Infantry Division was under Patton. The North African Campaign, Battle of the Ardennes. That was the Battle of the Bulls. Here's just Sunday school teacher from Arkansas, came back home, ptsd, began to drink. And anyway, I said, gloria, I need to ask your dad's hand in marriage. And he said, well, yeah, I introduced you to her. And this little girl's head bouncing Back and forth. And it was Jan, and she's been in the ministry now over 50 years. So that's a little bit of background behind him. He had a massive heart attack. Now, he remarried. Monear never did, but his wife was a member of the First Baptist Church in Nashville, Arkansas. They rushed him to the hospital, and of course, Gloria and I flew over there as soon as we could. Her pastor said, copeland. I waited until there was absolutely nothing, no part of that operation left. And I took him down the Roman road. No more ptsd. He never took another drink. Glory to God forevermore. He went home at 77 years old. Isn't that magnificent? God doesn't fail, and it's a rich thing.

[Bryce Crawford]

Well, when you were growing up, when did you claim to have start following Jesus? How old were you?

[Kenneth Copeland]

I was raised right all my life.

[Bryce Crawford]

Your parents were believers?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Are you kidding? My mother was a switcher. She'd get behind my little legs. And my daddy, he was a disciplinarian.

[Bryce Crawford]

He was a military man. No, no, he wasn't.

[Kenneth Copeland]

He was in between the wars.

[Bryce Crawford]

Okay.

[Kenneth Copeland]

And her appendix ruptured on the basketball court. And back in the day, that was a death sentence. And so they told her that she probably wouldn't let. Well, he just used cadaver clamps because he got in there and was ruptured. My grandfather went in there and said, she dies, you die. So he sewed her up, but didn't do a good job of it, and she suffered from that all of her life.

[Bryce Crawford]

But you grew up in a Christian household.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Oh, I did. And my dad, he's just my hero, man. That's awesome. But he'd say to me, kenneth, you did it again. I'm gonna whip you twice. I did it again. And he did it. He said, all right. And you know what I told you it may be two or three days later. I realized later he wouldn't do it if he's hurt, but he'd take his belt and he'd tan my rear end. And I think about him today. I'm so glad that he did, because I grew up with great respect for him. I mean, when he walked in the room as a grown man, I stood up and we went camping together one time. And on a ranch out that he had a friend out there that had some land in a soil bank. And so we went out there to go camping and talk about some things, about ministry and so forth. And so I said, you want a cup of coffee before we get in the tent? Well, then their soil conservation, they had water that was coming down. So I went down this little scream stream and I had just no metal coffee pot and I'd already washed it out and everything was cleaned. And I just scooped a s' more there and boiled it and made coffee. And so the next morning we got up and I said, dad, that coffee was good last night. Well, yeah, Ken, good. I said, well, this morning I'm not going to get another frog like I did in this one. I scooped up a little frog.

[Bryce Crawford]

There's a frog in his hand.

[Kenneth Copeland]

He just cooked him. We both just lost it. He said, okay, no frogs. But that was my dad and I, we would, if I got to travel with him in his traveling. It was just. Just absolutely wonderful.

[Bryce Crawford]

I think that's amazing. I think, you know, Malachi 46 talks about the hearts of fathers turning their sons and their sons turn to fathers. And I think more now than ever, especially my generation, I get so important for fathers and mothers to believe in my generation. And that really encourages them to.

[Kenneth Copeland]

And it. We would. We would talk together, visit about things together. And I remember one time, mother had all me she wanted. I mean all she wanted. She grabbed a belt and took out after me. And I said, mama, that's enough. And I jerked it away from her. Don't ever do that. Those little Cherokee eyes started doing this. She jumped on me. I said, mama, I'm sorry. No, get off of me. She started laughing. I started laughing. Neither one of them do anything.

[Bryce Crawford]

But anyway, so you had met Gloria at. After that, the after that after party, the Arkansas TCU game and you guys get. Get married. I remember you.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Okay, We. We went on to Arkansas and in Central flying service I got the multi engine rating and all was really going good. And so in a Beechcraft Barren. And then. And so my boss was Claude Hobart and he was my best man. And Joe Stewart, who was CEO, was a Southern Baptist preacher. And we chose April 13th. And so we got married in his living room.

[Bryce Crawford]

And you had asked her to marry you on your first date, correct?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Yes. We walked up on the porch. Well, I did my thing now, Mac. I told him all about him. He said, now you take her to the Rocket Room down at the hotel there they have one time jukebox. So Johnny Mathis came on singing Misty. So I sang Misty to her while we were dancing. She didn't act like it even happened. Walked up on the porch. I said, gloria, will you marry me? Okay. And went inside and said, what have I done? I don't even know this guy. Oh, well, I get out of it later. That's 64 years later. Wow.

[Bryce Crawford]

But you sang to her while y' all danced?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Yes.

[Bryce Crawford]

That's real Riz. Do you know what Riz is? Have you ever heard that? That's like. Riz is like. You know, like you got. You've. You swooned her, you know.

[Kenneth Copeland]

I did everything I could think of.

[Bryce Crawford]

It sounds like you had a real. Riz.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Look at me. And so I like that.

[Bryce Crawford]

Wait, do they.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Look at. Look at me. I'm as helpless as a kitten up a tree Feel like I'm clinging to a cloud I can't understand I get misty Just holding your hand Walk my way and a thousand violins begin to play Is it the sound of your hello? That music I hear I get misty the moment you're near does that take

[Bryce Crawford]

you back to that moment?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Oh, yeah. But the other one was a Ray Price tune. You're the best thing that ever happened to me.

[Bryce Crawford]

Oh, wow.

[Kenneth Copeland]

I've had my share of life's ups and downs Life's so good the downs have been few. I know it's because he has blessed me and I know it's because he gave me you. If anyone should ever write my life story. We just finished the edit on it about two days ago.

[Bryce Crawford]

That's so cool.

[Podcast Host]

That.

[Bryce Crawford]

Anyway, how you and Gloria met.

[Kenneth Copeland]

We've never had an argument. Been discussions, and we'd just sit and talk about it. I only raised my voice to her one time. And I don't remember living in a little rent house. I don't remember now what set it off. And I just stopped in the middle of it. I said, oh, Glo. Oh, baby, you don't deserve this. And I just fell down over this couch and I said, I gotta preach. She said, I know it. Let's go back to 1962. I flew a man from Little Rock to Shreveport by the name of Weir. He was an executive with the Arkansas Louisiana Natural Gas Company. I came back and, you know, got him off. And I told her, you know, how to be late. And I got back in. She was at the stove. I can see it in my mind right now. I went in and took my suit off and came back in there to the kitchen there, the little dinette there, and sat down. And I heard it in my spirit. Kenneth, you don't get right with me. You headed to a devil's hell. I said, I know it. What do I do now? I heard a woman by the name of Ms. Taggart, Sunday school teacher in the University Baptist Church in Abilene, Texas. Boys, you have to ask Jesus to come into your heart. I thought, that's old lady Taggart. That's what we call her. She called herself that. She's a widow woman. I said, well, here goes Jesus now. I'd never heard of a new creature, Jesus come into my heart. Profanity was gone from that day to this.

[Bryce Crawford]

And so in 1962.

[Kenneth Copeland]

And then I got to tell. Now I got to tell Gloria. She's raised in Church of Christ now in Baptist church. I said, I was sitting like this in that little chair. I said, gloria, she came. Walked over there. I said, come here. What if I were to. Oh, what if I were to speak for God or give my testimony? She said, hallelujah. I said, hallelujah. What? She said, well, the Bible your mother sent you that you never did read, said, ken, precious, seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you. She said, I just said, lord, I need things, so take my life and do something with it. We jumped up and hugged one another. January 1963. A man by the name of William Standish Reed was having a. A Christian Medical foundation meeting. They said, you know, anybody wants to come up? I turned around my mother, I said, that's something we ought to have. Yeah. I just grabbed Gloria and up we went. Well, all the men were praying for me and all the women praying for her, and, you know, hang on, let it go. I didn't know what they wanted me to do, but the men just gave up on me. So Gloria was standing right there, and they were still praying for her. So he said, come over here. Lay your hands on her. I said, no. Oh, my. Lay your hands on her. I did. I'm telling you, I'm patented by the power of God. Like, knocked me backwards. And I stumbled back up on this little makeshift platform. And then I got hold of Glo. I said, I got to go back to work. So Monday, so let me know what takes place. Well, the next day, she received. First time in her life she'd heard the term born again. And we met people that were lifelong friends that day, which she came back to Little Rock with. And they lived in Little Rock, but I knew so little about it. I'm flying this small airplane, and I'm just sitting there thinking and talking to myself just about as loud as I'm talking now. Just the drone of the airplane. And I said, lord, I don't know what. All I know about this. I must have heard the word anointing there, because I'd never Heard it in my life. I'm going to say some of those words again. And anything to this for me, I'm asking you to anoint them. Here it came again. Now I'm concerned. I got to talk to these people. I'm going to have to talk to ATC here again. Little Rock Approach. I thought, well, that worked. That's how little I knew landed. I'm telling you, I laid my hands on the airplane, the car, everything you could think of. And so that's where it began.

[Bryce Crawford]

And how long have you been in ministry for? And had KCM now? Yeah. Now to this day?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Well, I was in the ministry before we started KCM in the 24th of January, 1964. I'd already been preaching to full gospel businessmen's fellowships and things like that, up before that, before that. But that's when this ministry started. So this January is 59 years. And, you know, I've done a lot of traveling, traveled, been times that sitting in the makeup chair with Sherrod like we did today, I'd sit there so exhausted I didn't know. I couldn't tell how I was going to do what I had to do, and with stress. And I was preaching for Mike Barber in a tent meeting, prison tent meeting. And I got short of breath and I had no idea why. Well, went to the cardiologist and he checked me out. I had one blocked artery, but it had bypassed itself. But I had afib because of all that stress. And so they installed a pacemaker. And the FAA has dealt with pacemakers for a long time. There's what they call the Bruce Protocol, and I'll get to that in a moment. Well, the Apostle Paul said, physical exercise is good, profiteth little. It means it doesn't last long. You have to do it every day, but that doesn't mean don't do it. He told him about it. He intended for him to do it. But spiritual exercise, of course, is greater than that. That's more prosperous, is what he said. I had dealt with that already and got a lot of weight off. But then this thing happened, and I had the Lord say, I created you to rest 52 days a year. You don't rest 52 days in five years and you're exhausted.

[Bryce Crawford]

He was speaking to you about the Sabbath. When was that?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Oh, that back 2004.

[Bryce Crawford]

Wow. That was something that I had been getting convicted about recently was like, you know, there's a purpose that God designed the Sabbath, and you can get a lot done in six days, but you

[Kenneth Copeland]

need to rest and resting. I have a really good treadmill. And you can rest on that treadmill. Just go in there and take a nice walk. I don't have to go outside to do it. It's right there in my home now. And I don't. But the exercise part is to get it moving, get the heart going, get the heart going, get it going. Work it, work it, work it, work it, work it. Gradually work right up to it.

[Bryce Crawford]

And so that's been a pretty consistent rhythm in your life since 2004.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Well, now, 2004, the Lord directed me to do a live big band album with a group called Joshua Experience. Rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal with his big band. And there are spots and places. I mean, anybody can Google it, listen. And there were spots and places where, you know, it had to be correct. Normally, I shower at night. And if you walk into my bathroom there, if I walk up to my shower stall, the shower head is here. And there's a bench across here this way. And there were some other things that had happened right before that convention. I was just exhausted. So I waited until Sunday morning to take my shower. And I just let that hot water go across me, and I pitched the shower to the bench, and it didn't make it. It went in the corner. I twisted to pick it up, and I ruptured a disc in my back. And I screamed. I crawled out of that shower. I couldn't.

[Bryce Crawford]

Those are the worst.

[Kenneth Copeland]

I crawled out of there. And the young man and his wife, they were chiropractors at that time, David and Lynn Weider, just screaming and screaming. I crawled out of there. And Gloria called him just immediately. But then that was corrected with stem cells. I disobeyed God. I didn't do what he said. Start walking. Don't quit. I paid the price right there in that shower.

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[Bryce Crawford]

All right, guys, so I'm back with brother Copeland here, and we're getting ready to dive into the scriptures. I, you know, I have a lot of questions about the prosperity, abundance, health and wealth. You know, growing up, for me personally, if I'm being completely honest, it's really hard for me to wrap my mind around the prosperity message and, and things like that. And so I just kind of wanted to have some dialogue here. Where, where do you get this from in scripture? Where do you see this? Kind of share my thoughts. But before we kind of dive into the scripture and where you get your perspective, from your perspective according to scripture, how do you define abundance and prosperity?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Well, Jesus came and said, the thief comes but for to steal, to kill and destroy. I've come that you might have life and have it more abundantly. Prosperity. When one mentions prosperity, most people think, now money's not the root of all evil. The Bible said the love of it is. And there are people that commit that, that don't have any money.

[Bryce Crawford]

That's right.

[Kenneth Copeland]

True prosperity starts with John 3, 16. That's where it starts.

[Bryce Crawford]

Absolutely.

[Kenneth Copeland]

And then you go from there, you go to the second chapter of the book of Acts. Because being able to pray in the spirit, gateway to the supernatural, and you're just not ready to prosper all that big financially yet. But I would say just from my experience over the last, oh, 57, 58 years, that the biggest part of Christians do not know that they've been redeemed from the curse of the law.

[Bryce Crawford]

What does that look like?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Well, let's just take a look and see. Let's Read this. Deuteronomy 8:18. Thou shalt remember. Okay, we got to remember this. The Lord thy God, for it is he that gives you the power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant, which he swore. Fathers, as it is this day, this is covenant business. And this book is a book of blood covenants. The blood of animals, blood by circumcision, the sinless blood of Jesus. Let's Go over here to Galatians, chapter three, and then we'll go back and see what that curse looks like. 13th verse. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us, for it is written. Now, let me just stop right here. Brian. The integrity of this written word is absolutely essential. Rightly dividing it is essential. Understanding what it means when one receives communion. When I finally realized that I'm a blood brother with Jesus Christ, I'd rather die than to do anything to shame him ever, ever, ever. I don't remember now why our airplane was in a shop or something. Anyway, I was reading E.W. kenyon's book, the Blood Covenant. And this is back in the day when you could just take a shuttle. You know this. Listen to this. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ. That we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. I speak not after the manner of men, though it be but a man's covenant. Yet if it be confirmed, no man disannuls or adds thereto. Now, verse 29. And if ye be Christ, then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. Now we've got to go back over here and see what that's all about. So we'll go back here to the book of Deuteronomy. Once again. They had just come out of Egypt. There's about 2 million of them. So if you can imagine two of them on Mount Ebal and Mount Gerizim, there's a million of them over here on one side. And they're shouting across the valley of Shechem, they're shouting across there. And they have come and it comes back and said, now, this day. So chapter 27, Moses, with the elders of Israel, commanded the people, saying, keep all the commandments which I command you this day. And it shall be on the day when you pass over Jordan. Now, here's where we're going, and when we get over Jordan, we're going to run into trouble. It shall be on this day when you pass over Jordan unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, that thou shalt set thee up great stones and plaster them with plaster, and shall write upon the words of the law. Now let's stop right here. When Cain killed Abel, there was no law against it. So that began the law and the prophets. And once a prophet of God spoke something into this earth. There's no way the devil could get it out. He had it to deal with. And it started out, I'm going to paraphrase. There's coming one. He's coming. Well, he killed every prophet he could find, thinking, maybe this is the one. But there was a great announcement made one day in the Jordan River. Now, John the Baptist said, you know, I can't do this. I don't want to. Jesus said, this, you must do it that all these things be fulfilled. Now, when you go back to God, in the beginning, the word is Elohim, the plural. Let us make man in image, right? So now we're headed in that direction. And the word came. This is my beloved son. Hear ye him. And the devil says, I got him. So he was on every prophet. He was kill everybody he possibly could trying to get up to that point. But this is so important to you, to me, and to all believers. Now, verse 11. Moses charged the people the same day, saying, these shall sign. Stand on Mount Gerizim to bless the people when you come over Jordan. Simeon, Levi, Judah. Okay, that's our side of the mountain. Issachar, Joseph and Benjamin. That's the Apostle Paul's side of the mountain. These shall stand on Mount Ebal. Now, Ebal was alkaline. Nothing. I mean, couldn't anything grow on it? When you really see a picture of it, curse Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan and Naphtali. And the Levites shall speak and say unto all the men, cursed be the man that makes a graven image. A molten image. Well, I have no other gods before me. I make no graven image. That's commandment number two. And all the people answered and said, cursed is he that Seth light by the father of his mother. And all the people shall say, I may. There's roar going back across there. You probably could have heard it for miles. Cursed is he that removes a neighbor's landmark. Now come on over here to the 18th verse or 20th chapter. It shall come to pass if you will hearken diligently to the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and do all of his commandments, which I command thee. This day after, the Lord thy God will set thee high above all nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come on you and overtake you. If you'll hearken or listen unto the voice of Jehovah your God. Blessed shall you be in the city. Blessed shall you be in the field. Now, I want to stop right here. It's become the blessing of Abraham. But if you go to book one, he created everything and blessed it and saw that it was good. Yeah, and he created this whole garden and everything before he put the man in it. And if you take a good look at that, blessed is the first word the first man ever heard. So it was the blessing of Adam, but it came down to be the blessing of Abraham. For this reason, Abraham, 17th chapter of Genesis. Well, let's go there.

[Bryce Crawford]

That's good. One of my Bible teachers growing up said, always be a good respectful skeptic. Like read the word.

[Kenneth Copeland]

You notice. Well, let me put it this way. You can't fight thoughts with thought thoughts. Jesus said, why take ye thought saying, you shall say unto this mountain. You can't think it and get anything done about it. You can't fight thoughts with. You have to fight thoughts with words. And faith filled words dominate the laws of sin and death. Now, Genesis 17. Abram, you need to go back and study Abram. This is some kind of guy now. I mean, all those kings came against him. And you know, old Chad said, you take, I'll take the people, I'll take the money. Abram said, don't ever let it be said that any man made Abram rich. But Almighty God, I don't want. I don't even want the strings out of your shoes. Well, he just armed his household. So, you know, there was a lot of supernatural stuff in that because they owned the night. Well, when I was in the US army, we ruled the night. I mean, that's. But that's where it started. I am El Shaddai. El Shaddai is the God who's more than enough. It really refers to a woman's breast, that when a woman has children, like Gloria for instance, she's everything. She could understand what they said, and I didn't have a clue. But she spent all day and all night with them. Well, I am El Shaddai. Walk before me and be perfect. Be blameless. I will make my covenant between me and thee and will multiply thee exceedingly. Abram fell on his face and you might. There's been a whole lot more times than once I fell on my face and God spoke with me. That was true when I went to Olu because I had $24,000 left. I'd had an open vision, I knew I was supposed to be there and I just fell on my face on this little house that they had arranged for us. I just fell flat on my face, man, just praying in the spirit just as fast as I could. And I stopped and thought, I wonder if he'd say anything if I was to. Well, it's about time. I couldn't get anything In Ed's wife. Get on your feet, man. I hit a military bracelet. I was standing there shaking all night, just shaking all over. He said, I sent you here. I'll take care of you here. Your ministry doesn't start out of school. It starts now. They can't make a minister out of you. I've already made a minister out of you. All they can do is train you. I went out and Gloria said, what took what happened? All night long. I said, well, there's my direction. So I had already been to orientation. Mrs. Campbell is printing the first quarter. I don't have any money. I said, Ms. Campbell, may I make a collect call? Yeah, dial nine. I called my dad. He said, where are you? I said, I'm a registrar's office in Oral Roberts University. Why? He said, eddie Matthews. Now, Eddie Matthews was in the construction business. He had no idea where I was. Eddie Matthews came by and brought a check and said it was for your ministry. I said, how much? $375.15. Wow. And I had about the 15 cents later. And I thought, well, Gloria and I'll get a candy bar and go broke. So now he said he'd take care of me. Paid that bill. And the Lord absolutely arrested me out there in front of the lrc. Go up to the sixth floor. And this just came out of my mouth. I said, no, that's the Vatican. I'm not supposed to be up there. Not in here, not out out here. Where any believer has it. They worked for me. First thing I had to do is find the elevator. I couldn't do it. I punched the fifth floor just open. Well, it was the first year of oru. I didn't know was the library didn't have anything in it yet. He said, floor six. Okay. Remember now, I'll take care of you here. That elevator opened. I walked up to this woman. I said, my name's Kenneth Copeland. I just registered for school. I'm a commercially rated pilot and I need all the help I can get. She said, tell Dean Zenuck, sir, I am a. I just registered today, and I'm a commercially rated pilot. I understand this minister used aircraft. I need all the help I can get. He went, I turned around. My name's Oral Roberts. I actually stuttered. Listen to this. I got my first faith lesson two weeks ago. I started to hire a new copilot. The spirit of the Lord said, that's the same spirit that said, I'll take care of you here. The spirit of the Lord said, I have a student coming and you're my man. Tell brother Luis we got our copilot. The spirit of God told him, no, don't hire that guy. I have a student coming that's supposed to have the job. He's not going to tell me that ahead of time. I'm going to have to walk by faith, which I did well. He became my father in the spirit. That kind of trust, I realized out there in front of that lrc, he arrested me. I actually had where I just kind of stuck. I realized I could have turned and walked off and said, no, I don't have any money. I'd have been a world of hurt because I didn't need any more money. Then later, this was so cool. A man by the name of Collin Steele was head of everything on the road. I was in two of the last tent meetings that they had and things. He said, I'll take care of you here. Things began to advance, and Brother Steele came to me and he said, kenneth, you're a grown man. I want you to drive the rev's car. Well, all right. And Brother Louise said, now don't start a conversation with him. You let him go first. So we were in Oklahoma City. He wouldn't let anything disturb his thinking because of the gift he had in his right hand. And it was so powerful, he just stopped. He had his butt. He said, kenneth, I jumped. People will always tell you you can't do it. Find out the will of God. Now, that's when you search this book, and that's when you pray and talk and think things about it. Confer no longer with flesh and blood. Get your job done at all cost. 1, 2, 3.

[Bryce Crawford]

You know, I think you said something interesting earlier about like, abundance and prosper. When we were introing into that subject, you know, you mentioned something, you said, you know, the love of money. There's people that don't have money that struggle with the love of money. I grew up, I worked on boats in Destin, Florida, and I had a co worker double my age who had no money. Atheist, wouldn't believe in Jesus. I would talk to him about him all the time. And I'm right there with you. I agree. I don't think there's a dollar amount on someone's bank account that makes it sinful because obviously my co worker at the time, he really struggled with money. I think the hardest thing for me to wrap my mind around, like the name it claim it, the prosperity for me is when I. When I look at, in the second Corinthians, passage of Paul. Right, Paul. Paul is writing about that thorn in his side. And. And, you know, there's theological debate on what that is. But. But, you know, he says, I'm. I'm grateful for this thorn because it keeps me humble and reliant on God.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Oh, absolutely.

[Bryce Crawford]

And so it's hard for me to wrap my mind around this idea that God wants everyone to be wealthy, everyone to be healthy and things like that.

[Kenneth Copeland]

When we didn't say that, wants everybody to be prosper, John said it, I pray that you prosper and be in health as your soul prospers. Being rich is more than enough to take care of what you have and enough left over to help somebody take care of themselves.

[Bryce Crawford]

So is it. So is.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Now, let me back up. Gloria and I started out with nothing, and now we have officers and staff on five continents. We didn't try to do that. We started out on the radio. I was in North Texas there in a little town called Herford, Texas, and I had my outlines laid out before the bed there. And the way I do my preaching outlines, the title is in blue and the Scriptures in red. And I was praying about what I'm to do tonight. And the Lord said, is there victory in the new birth? Absolutely. Is there victory in the filling of the spirit? Certainly. Is there victory in the healed body? Yes. Now, that's part of your prosperity, is to live well and not be sick. Divine health, that is really prosperous. I didn't know you could do that until I've lived it. And he said, every believer has a voice, and it is the voice of victory. Now, I was on the radio and I would start out that way, and then I had a. I had a little FM thing in my own studio, and I had a couple of records there. And so I did the theme song, and I was going along, I said, you're not sick and you're not going to die. And I thought, wow, that is strong. And then later on, we got a testimony. This woman was in the hospital. They had just. The doctors had just left her room and said, there's nothing we can do. You are going to die. She said, my arm just went over to the radio and turned it on. I heard you. Now, someone else had it tuned into that, obviously. And she said. I said, I'm not. So she sent down to the little deal downstairs and ordered a Bible up. So she looked up the scripture references, and then she said, I went home. I'm perfectly healed. We paid off my husband's truck, and now the three of us have started A church, that's prosperity.

[Bryce Crawford]

So let me ask you about that healing aspect, too, because I believe in the supernatural. I believe God still heals today. I do also believe that there are instances, though, where, you know, we pray and ask God for healing. I'll give you a prime example. The whole reason I became a believer was because I was struggling with anxiety and depression. And Jesus supernaturally encountered me when I was 17. And I prayed and said, jesus, if you're real, take away my anxiety and depression. He took it away. I haven't had it since that day. And I've prayed that same prayer for close family members, friends, loved ones who struggle with it just as bad, if not sometimes even worse. And God doesn't seem to take their anxiety into.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Well, he didn't say you were talking to him about you. You're talking about family members. Now, their will is involved. Now, if you're going to intercede for them, that's a different thing. But in your intercession and supplication, second chapter of the book of Timothy, first of all, prayers of intercession, so forth, which is good in the sight of God our Savior, who gave himself as a ransom for all. Just praying for him isn't going to do it. Now, in some cases it might. If you just intercede long enough, the witness is stronger than the intercession because they know your testimony, but they're going to have to receive it on their own. And you do it with the book.

[Bryce Crawford]

So what would you say then? Like, for example, going back to that example of Paul, right. You know, he has that thorn in his side that's dealing with him, you know, persistently, it seems like.

[Kenneth Copeland]

But did you check and see what

[Bryce Crawford]

that was, what the thorn exactly was?

[Kenneth Copeland]

No. What. What if you go, it was the care and worry about all the churches that was the thorn in his side. Now there are those that said he had sick eyes and all that. But he said, I've been delivered from all of that.

[Bryce Crawford]

Where did he. Where does he say that part? I'm just curious.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Have to look it up. You'd just have to go and look it up in your concordance. But he said, I have been delivered of all of these things. Now, here's what you have to understand about him. Like in the book of Philippians, he used the word joy in one form or another 18 times while he was in the worst prison you could possibly. This man is our hero.

[Bryce Crawford]

He is the hero.

[Kenneth Copeland]

But he said. He didn't say I am. He said, I know how to be abased. I know how to be hungry. I know how to have plenty. I know how. Didn't say I am. He said I know how. So you study his life and read everything. He's the same one. When he wrote to the church in Rome about Abraham. He's the same one. Well, let's turn over there. Romans 4. What shall we say then? Abram. Abraham, our father, as pertaining to the flesh hath found. For if Abraham are justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. What says the Scripture? Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness or just right standing with God. Now, to him that works in the reward not reckoned of the grace, but of debt, but to him that works not, but believes on him, justifies the ungodly. His faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also described the blessedness of the man to whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying blessed are they that inquiries are forgiven, his iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Now let's come over here to the well. The 13th verse for the promise. Now remember, every time you see the word promise, there's blood involved some way or another. For the promise that he should be heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, the promise made of none effect. Because the law works whereat. For there is. Now look at this. Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace to the end that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations before him, or like him, whom believe God, who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things that be not as though they were. I call my body. Well, I don't watch television at night. I still listen to brother Hagin, even though he's in heaven. I have a cell phone with no SIM card in it, so I have him right there. That's the way glory. And I got it was listening to it on tape. So I have it now. First words and last words. What I just used today, for instance, with Gloria. Goodnight, my love. I love the Lord, my God, with all of my heart, all of my soul, all of my mind and all of my strength. I love My neighbor as myself, fulfilling all the law and the prophets. In John 13, 34, 35, the master said, I give you a new commandment that you love one another as I have loved you. And tonight, Father, my neighbor. And I'll tell you who my neighbor is right now. Joe Biden. They announced that he has prostate cancer. This is not politics. This is life, brother. And if they held that back and he dies of prostate cancer, somebody is really guilty. Well, I'm not the judge. The book is. So I pray in the spirit for his whole family to be delivered. Jesus said, send laborers across their paths with the message. And I pray that as it is written. As it is written, tithing is absolutely essential for the prosperous life. Let's go back over there to the blessing of Abraham in the 28th chapter of Deuteronomy. Just so you know, the way I do my Bible, and that one that I just took back. David Barton was doing television with me one day. He said, where do you get a white highlighter? We were opening the Book of Hebrews, and at one time or another, I had just highlighted everything in there. So that's my favorite book. I have a few.

[Bryce Crawford]

Hebrews is great. Oh, yeah, it's great.

[Kenneth Copeland]

I'm telling you.

[Bryce Crawford]

Do you think Paul wrote it?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Absolutely, yeah. He mentions Timothy in it. I mean, come on, let me paraphrase it in the book of Galatians. Let's go over there.

[Bryce Crawford]

We gotta go over there. I mean, we're here. We gotta go over there. You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra, which persecutions I endured. Yet from them all the Lord rescued me.

[Kenneth Copeland]

I pray over my food every day according to the letter that the Apostle Paul wrote to his son Timothy. I received my food blessed and sanctified according to the word of God in prayer. And I pray for my partners every meal I pray for the midterms. Every meal I pray for the protection. Now, I want you to notice this in chapter 1, verse 14. Profited in the Jews religion above many of my equals and own nation, being more exceedingly zealous. So he was a zealot of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me as grace to reveal. Now get it. To reveal his son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen, immediately I conferred Noah not with flesh and blood, Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which are apostles before me. But I went and to Arabia and returned again. Then three years Mary at the tomb thought it was the gardener. And he said, don't touch me. Well, what happened then? Don't touch me. And this happened. He's the only one that said 500. No one else said that when this happened. Another scripture in the body, out of the body, I cannot tell. God knows. So in Arabia he went where Moses went. And he sat there. He didn't need a veil. He's a born again Holy Ghost. Baptized tongue, talking Christian. And when Jesus appeared to him, he said, I've already shown him what he must suffer for my name's sake. Why? To prove that this new covenant works. To prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. He's the only man qualified. None of the apostles were qualified. Because this man sat at the feet of Gamaliel. Gamaliel's word is accepted. Rabbis. Rabbis. This man was a rabbi of rabbis. But they hated him because of what he wrote.

[Bryce Crawford]

They did. They tried to stone him. They tried to chase him out.

[Kenneth Copeland]

And then he got up. And stoning him wouldn't stop. Shortest salvation prayer in history. Who are you, Lord? I'm Jesus that you persecute. What you want me to do? And in that he was like Abraham. Whatever he told him, he did it.

[Bryce Crawford]

Now, when it comes to my understanding of this idea of prospering. Right,

[Kenneth Copeland]

let's go back over to the book of Deuteronomy now.

[Bryce Crawford]

Back to Deuteronomy 28.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Yes, we need to go back over there because we need to find out where the financial part of it comes. In Deuteronomy 26, from 12 through 15 are all of the. All of the tithes. I have listened to the voice of the Lord my God, and have done according to all you have commanded me. Look down from your holy habitation, from heaven and. And bless your people Israel, and the land which you've given us, that you have sworn unto our fathers. A land that flows with milk and honey. In the book of Exodus, he said, I'll have no poor in the Jubilee, the 50 years. In case you have poor, you send back everything they have. I won't have any poor people in my nation. Chapter 28. It will come to pass, but you're going to have to believe it. It will come to pass if you will hearken diligently. Now, that's different from just reading once in a while. This is spending time searching the Scriptures. This spend time. Our Father, which art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. I was praying that. And the Lord said. And I'd been. Been praying for a good while, studying, listening. I just started praying. He said, you look up. Give us this day our daily bread. He said, what is your daily bread? He said, you, daily bread is going to be to the nations. Oh, really? I didn't know we were going to come to a place where we are now. Let me give you my own personal situation. We have a board of directors. They set my salary. I don't. They do according to the IRS guidelines, and they don't let me be in a room when they do. And since the ministry has airplane, if for some reason or other that I use that airplane before God, but for vacation or something for my family, there is an internal revenue thing for that, and I pay taxes on it. The reason this ministry uses an airplane, as I was saying, is because we started out and I was praying about this. We were just getting started, and we were there in Tulsa, and I came in from school. I said, gloria, I have a disturbance in my spirit. Now, the man that owned that house we were renting, he was a lawyer. Well, I'm going to stay four more years and go to seminary. And I had him write the Kenneth Copeland Evangelistic Association. I'd already had him do the papers. So the Arkansas river, that's just one house. And I was in the riverbed there. I went down in there and prayed in the spirit till it was just about dark. And all I heard again was, nations, nations, nations. So I started up out of there. And then the Lord said, you, wife is precious to me. I have given her to you. She is to you. What temper is to steal. Well, I was in metal shop in high school, and you had to temper. I was making tools, and you had to temper it or you'd break it. But this nation's thing came up, but I pretty well forgot about it. So school's out. I'm ready to go. What I'm going to do here in the summer, I don't know. And I sat down there, I had my suit on, I had my Bible, and I had my legal pad. And I said, okay, Lord. And down in my spirit, he said, I want you to go back to Fort Worth, Lord. Now he said, I'll take care of you. You know what happened to you in your hometown. I don't want to go back to Fort Worth. The greatest part of your destiny Is there. Phone rang. Gloria said, brother Nichols wants to talk to you. Well, he was pastor of Grace Temple Church. And so Gloria and I and John and Kelly were rebaptized in water there in that church. So he said, my pastor, when can you come to me for a meeting? I said, well, Brother Nichols, I'd like to say I need to check my schedule, but I won't have one. Now, we had had a devastating car wreck at Marshall, Texas, and Halloween night before. And the only car I had was an old, worn out Oldsmobile that had about 90,000 miles on it when we got it. And that's the only car I had. I'm nursing this thing down the highway, so. But of course, when I got there, I had another car to drive. At least I was for my folks. I stayed there with our folks. We walked in there and mother came in there and said, gloria, come out. I said, gloria, I said, mama, you got any tapes? Yeah. Look in there. They had a thing there. The previous owner had a home screen. They just set this thing out and set this tape recorder on it. You know, the thing about that big. There's a white box, huh? On the first side, you can write your own ticket with God. And the flip side, Paul's revelation. Kenneth E. Hagin. That's the first time I ever heard anything like that in my life. I said, gloria, we have to have everything this man has. And that started that and the teaching that came from both of these men. Now, I want you to notice this. This is very important, the way this is worded. It will. It said.

[Bryce Crawford]

What verse is that that you're in?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Chapter 28, verse one. It will come to pass if you shall listen diligently to the voice of the Lord your God, to observe and do all his commandments, which I command thee this day, that the Lord God will set you high above all nations on the earth. In God's mind, that's everybody in the nation. You can't have a nation without people. All these blessings shall come on you and overtake you. If you hearken unto the voice. If you listen to. Listen to me, blessed shall you be in this city. Blessed shall you be in the field. Let's stop right there. Let's talk about Job.

[Bryce Crawford]

He was a very wealthy guy.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Oh, yeah. The only person that did what the. There wasn't but one sin. He will curse you to your face. And God said, but you can't touch his life. His wife did it, not Job. And brought the devil down on the family. He did it throughout this whole Thing there was a blessing wall around him.

[Bryce Crawford]

The hedge of protection.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Yeah, it's the same blessing. He said, you've blessed him. I can't get in there. To him, blessing is more than just what you do when you sneeze. It is a power from God. You can't break it. You can't get through it. It's an invisible thing, force. In many cases, it is translated very happy. But it takes diligence. It takes a concerted, diligent study of this book.

[Bryce Crawford]

Yeah. With the like. Okay, so this message of prosperity and abundance and things like that, you know, I know you go to a lot of prisons and do a lot of prison ministry. I think that's another thing that's hard for me to like, wrap my mind around for guys like who are in prison. You know, I've been to a state prison in Georgia where most of those men are in there with life without parole. You know, how could.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Okay, let me ask you, what does he need to prosper?

[Bryce Crawford]

He just needs Jesus.

[Kenneth Copeland]

There you are. That's his prosperity message. And to be strong enough to witness while he's in there. I've done a lot of prison ministry with Mike Barber. It started really before that, and I won't go into all the details, but I was teaching in a prison and one of these men said, copeland, we like to play baseball in here. Yeah, I don't blame you. I like baseball myself. These little old short bats, terrible. I said, what did you have in mind? He said, a 36 inch Joe Jackson. And he said, it has to be a Louisville Slugger. I don't want anything else. And the other guys said, yeah, these crummy little bats we've been getting. There was a prison and I said, you have to do it in faith. I said, get your Bibles. Let's go to the Book of Matthew, see what the master said. And so we agreed. The prison truck came in there and had a big box. It wasn't on the. Wasn't on the list. He said, I was supposed to bring these here, but there's nothing labeled on the box. I don't know what's in there. One of them was a Louisville Slugger, 36 inch Joe Jackson. So to him, that's prosperity. Because he prayed about this thing. He had learned how. Now one of them had 700 years in prison. Yeah. Wow. He walked me to the gate. Now, Lawrence Harvey was warden in the Huntsville unit at that time. And two, by the way, I baptized a serial killer named Steven Moran in the Barrie County Jail of San Antonio. And he kidnapped a woman. He had killed 24 women. He kidnapped a woman, Margie Cole. She kept telling him she's the only one that loved him. And he told her, if you don't shut up, I'm going to kill you. No, you're not going to kill the only person. Well, can I put my tape in? Yeah. Well, it was a tape of me preaching. And he slammed on the brakes and said, who said that? And looked in the back seat. The voice said, stephen, this is your last chance, son. She led him to the Lord right there. Well, I was on there as his spiritual advisor. Well, they only had to convict him of one. And they did. He said, I don't want any reprieve. He said, I only have one 5 year old boy and I don't want him to know I even existed in my terrible, terrible life. He let me know that he wanted me to meet him in Golden, Colorado. I'm on his book there. He said, I never heard of any of this they're going on with. But he said, they're just clearing their books. I said, now, Stephen, you have time to become an expert on prayer. Well, yeah, he said, I'll have time enough to do that. So I said, I. Now listen, you promise me you will pray about anything you do from now on. I give you my word. So he went upstairs, he got up there and his cell door was ajar. And he told me, he said, I looked, I could take my sheets and drop that out over there and I'm gone. But I promised Brother Copeland I'd pray. And he said, I said, I got on my knees and I said, father, in the name of Jesus. I fell asleep and I slept all night long. He said, I realized it was a trap. They were going to kill me on the other side of that wall. Because when they came in there and found me awake and my cell door not shut, he said, they look kind of stupid now. Fast forward. We were caged like this. There was a. And I'm talking to him like this. And I asked him, I said, everything all right? Oh, yeah, yeah. He said, now everything's fine. He said, I'm fixing to go home. He said, I can hardly wait. I said, stephen, I'm going to tell you, do me a favor. The scripture says that grace is enough. Yeah. I said, let me know, will you? So since I was his spiritual advisor, I was as close as that wall right there, just a few feet away, the little railing here. I could see him. He could look down there at me. And the Lights were bright. And when that Lethan injection start, it makes a bang. So, you know you're going to be gone here in a few seconds. And he looked down there at me and two thumbs up and he's gone. Grace was more than enough. A serial killer. But I had to go to the book when I baptized him in that. I mean, they had their pistols like this, you know, they have a tub there, as you know. And I told him, I said, gentlemen, everything will be all right. When he came up out of that water, I mean to tell you, if there was. If any man's face I have ever seen was aglow, it was his. Something had to happen first. Number one, he gave me his words. I took it. Number two, he did what I asked him to do. He became an expert on prayer. And he's leading other people to the Lord and praying for their families and for their lives and for their. Now they're prospering in the jail. So you can see where prosperity has a whole. Look at it like this. It's a pie, and there's one slice in it here. That's money. And it's money enough to take care of everything you need. It's money enough to be out of debt. I taught that at the minister's conference one year, and the pastor came back the next year and told me what happened. He said, I went home and he said, my wife and I prayed and the congregation prayed and we're going to build this new sanctuary. So he said, I went to the bank, I went in and he said, I asked him if I could see so and so. And they said, pastor, he's working on your loan now. And he said, I went in there and oh, he grabbed me by the hand. He said, pastor, it's looking good. He said, well, I just want to tell you, we decided to do it debt free. He said, he changed and he looked at me and I will not repeat what he called me. You know, you can't do this without us. He would have had that spirit in his life. It's because they're money that he borrowed. There's this word, kine, up here. K I N E. Do you see it?

[Bryce Crawford]

In what verse?

[Kenneth Copeland]

In the fourth verse. The increase of your kine. That is, the increase. That's not kind. It's kind. Now. There are farm people, all the oxen, everything you need, because this is El Shaddai. Everything you need. What do you need? Come to me. The increase of your kind. Our kind here was aircraft because the ministry started with a little Single engine Cessna. But even with that, some man asked me, he said, why do you want an airplane? I said, well, to go fast. Why not? And besides that, it's safer than driving down the highway. And I go to places for a meeting. Airlines don't even go there. And even this small four place airplane. And I was flying it and getting into places and getting into. But I needed a twin engine airplane because this is not an all weather airplane, you understand why? Anyway, I needed two engines for safety and well and speed and everything else. So I just traded it in on a Cessna 310 was twin engine airplane. But that's my kind. That's in the blessing now.

[Bryce Crawford]

So you're relating like the kind in Deuteronomy 28 to today your kind is an actual flock.

[Kenneth Copeland]

This room is my kind.

[Bryce Crawford]

I see what you're saying.

[Kenneth Copeland]

I need this. These mikes are our kind. This is our kind. Today we need money enough to pay for this and money enough where you don't have a debt on any of it. You don't go down to Sears and Roebuck and buy something like this on debt. This is an expensive piece of equipment. But your ministry doesn't need to be have to go borrow money at the bank things that is to prosper in your ministry and to do it without debt. So you just take it a day at a time, whatever's necessary and put back. Absolutely tithe Gloria. And I tithe personally. The church tithes, the ministry tithes. We sow into other ministries. And then by doing so over the years, the money that this ministry has saved by not owing is over $53 million. Anything the ministry purchases that goes up, that's prosperous. Now there's something I want to get to here. He will establish you a holy people unto himself. That's verse nine. All the people of the earth shall see that you're called by my name, saith the Lord. That is huge. He said to Solomon, build a place. Bill told David, build a place for my name. You won't do it, but your son will. A place for his name Emic is a place for his name. There's no debt on it. It's just the opposite of this really. The Lord shall open unto you his good treasure, the heaven to give rain upon your land in his season, to bless the work of your hand that you may lend to many nations. And not borrow. Wow. You'll make you the head and not the tail. That's prosperity. I don't want to be the tail. I want to be the head. But it was the head a little bit at a time. Didn't happen overnight. Of course not. Usually not be beneath if you hearken to. Listen to the commandments. Now, just turn this page. Now, here we go. Deuteronomy 28:14. And thou shalt not go aside from the words which shall command thee this day to the right hand or to the left, or another God shall serve them. But it shall come to pass if you will not listen to the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and do all of his commandments and statutes which I command you this day. Now get this. All these curses will come on you and overtake you. Cursed shall you be in the city. Cursed shall ye be in the field. The Lord shall send. Well, no, he doesn't send it. They're here. It really should be. He'll have to allow. Because you're not hearkening. You're not listening. In other words, listen to what he said. Cursing, vexation. Rebuke all you set your hand to do until you perish quickly because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou shalt forsake me. Consumption, inflammation, extreme burning, no rain. Look at this one. 46. They shall be on you for a sign and a wonder, and upon your seed forever, because you serve me, not the Lord thy God, with joyfulness and with gladness of heart for the abundance of all things. Well, the 61st verse then. Just also. Every sickness and every plague which is not written in the book of this law will the Lord bring upon you till you be destroyed. But we've been redeemed from it. That doesn't belong to us. Spiritual death, sickness and disease. Spiritual life born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, living in divine health and prosperity. And the prosperous part grows is like this. Gloria and I went before the Lord. We had been on 700 radio stations, which was somewhat of a record. But then the Lord called us on television. We'd gone to our prayer cabin in Arkansas and we stopped at Denny's for breakfast. And I looked at her and she kind of looked at me, and I said, are you thinking what I'm thinking? She said, you first. I said, television. And she said, yeah. How are we going to do it? I don't know. I don't have any idea. Well, it's going to take more money. So we began to write out our agreement covenants with one another. We have never, in a partner letter ever put any kind of a price in there. Except one time when we went on that television. Our whole ministry budget the year before Was a little over the $375,000. And I put in there for the price of a pair of tennis shoes. 1295. Well, you can see inflation is taking care of that. We can do this together. That's the one and only time our radio bill was 400,000amonth the next year. Well, taken care of. All of this has the difference between the blessing and the cursing. Now it does good to read all of this and then read it in the amplified and I mean the diseases themselves are actually listed there.

[Bryce Crawford]

So with the, with this, this prosper message that we're bouncing around through scripture and reading about, you know, you mentioned that like, oh, for the man in prison, prosperity looks different than maybe the man that grows up in Georgia and then the man that's in Africa and the person in China. Now like I think you and I can agree, like true prosperity is Jesus Christ. I mean that I, I love that you said that. My mind has such the hardest time wrapping around. You know, what if, what if God doesn't always give people what they want? What if God doesn't always do that? He.

[Kenneth Copeland]

When did he say he wouldn't do that?

[Bryce Crawford]

Well, when I'm reading the scriptures, for example, like when I look at the gospels, right? When we look at Jesus sending out the, the 72, for example, now he, he's, he's getting them to learn to trust him. He said, don't bring a naps sack, don't bring a tunic, don't bring an extra pair of shoes.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Yeah, they're working for him now. He said he wasn't a poor man or he wouldn't have had a treasurer. And he was stealing out of that bag. And Jesus was the only one that knows it. If Peter had done it, I think he tried to kill him. He had a garment that had no seams in it. The madman of Gadara. Clothed and in his right mind. Where'd they get the clothes? In the book of Mark went across there. This man was in the tombs night and day. He was a cutter. Naked. But then he wanted to go with him. He was clothed and in his right mind. Where did he get those clothes? And it didn't. He's going to call a man to preach. He didn't want him looking like this.

[Bryce Crawford]

Are you talking about the man in Mark 5 with the Legion? Yeah, he was naked. Cutting himself.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Yeah, naked. But then we see he was clothed and in his right mind. Well, you don't put a man in his right mind, turn him loose naked to go preach in the Decapolis. He was clothed. Jesus clothed him. He prospered him. He's a preacher. And he told him to tell them what great things and what compassion God had had upon him. So what did he preach? Same thing. So the basis then of prosperity. You go over to the book of James. What good does it say? Be warmed without corresponding action to faith. Here it is. Be blessed. Believe him naked. And there are cases, like a medical doctor, Dr. Bill Reed, powerful. He was operating on a baby and it died. And he just held his hand over that little baby and said. And the little baby came. Came to life. It changed his life absolutely forever.

[Bryce Crawford]

So for the person that. Let's say someone hears this, this prosperity message, right? They're listening, they're trying to apply. They're trying to read the scriptures. They're doing the things. Nothing's changing. Maybe they have a sickness. Sickness isn't going. You know, their finances aren't changing. Is that like a problem on the person? Or is that what. What?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Don't quit. Absolutely. Necessity to tithe. Oh, that's old covenant. Oh, come on. Hebrews is in the new, right?

[Bryce Crawford]

Hebrews is in the new.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Hebrews, chapter seven. There's an interesting scripture in first John. We have known and believed the love that God has for us. You believe God loves you? Oh, yes. Brother Copeland, I don't know. What are we redeemed from stranger from the covenants of promise in the book of Ephesians. An alien from the commonwealth of Israel without hope and without God in the world. Are you going to get healed? Oh, brother Copeland, I sure hope so. The right kind of hope is necessary because faith is the substance of things hoped for. So what's my hope? Brother Copeland, you're going to hear it. Get healed. Absolutely. How do you know? My hope is strong, therefore I have faith. I fully expect it. What if it doesn't happen? I missed it. Not God. I missed it. Here I'd hear. Or there's some little something. I've got something against somebody that. Forgive those who have any ought against you. 11th chapter of book of Mark. Anyway, I want you to see this in the book of Hebrews in the seventh chapter, without all contradiction. The less is blessed of the better. That's chesed. When you see the word loving kindness, that's chesed is the way you pronounce it. Chesed. There was a British missionary and gave it to me like this. He said I was headed back to London and he said that somebody wanted me to go see this native guy. And so he said I went And I taught on chesed. If you see the big elephant and the little elephant, and the big elephant raises out of here, you about to get a taste of chesed. But the little elephant gets exactly what his mama gets. Equal. Let this mind be in you. Which was also in Christ Jesus, who thought it not robbery to call equal with God, where we're joint heirs with Christ. And he said, come, come, come, everybody. God wants us to touch fingers. That's the way they made covenants. They would slit their fingers like this. And they became blood brothers. And you walk up to the bank and that's the way they. There's no way that there's going to be anything wrong here because we're brothers here. Men that die receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witness that he's alive. So we take our tithe. Go to Mark, chapter 10. This is where people get all out of shape. Verse 17. When he was gone forth in the way, there came one running and kneeled to him. So now get this picture.

[Bryce Crawford]

This is the rich young ruler.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Yeah.

[Bryce Crawford]

Oh, that. I'm glad you turned to this. I was. I was. Had the one in Luke bookmark, because I think this. This is. I mean, this passage is the one.

[Kenneth Copeland]

It's so precious. And he asked him, good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? Jesus said unto him, why do you call me good? There's none good but one. And it's God. You know the commandments. Do not commit adultery. Don't kill, don't steal, don't bear false witness. Defraud, not honor your father and mother. He left four of them out. There's a reason why he answered and said, all of these I have observed from my youth. Jesus, beholding him, loved him and said unto him, one thing you lack. Go and sell whatever you have. Give to the poor and you'll inherit heaven. Take up the cross and come follow me. He offered him apostleship, and he couldn't take it, because he's going to take care of his needs from now on. I don't care how much money he has. And he was sad at the saying and went away, grieved. We had great procession. Now, after he's gone, he answered the question, looked around about his disciples and said, how hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God? Not that they have them. The riches have them. He turned away from him. He didn't have to leave. He could have just said, well, that makes me mad enough to spit. But I ask you, and I'M going to stay with you till I find out. He just left.

[Bryce Crawford]

Yeah. He loved his money more than he loved God.

[Kenneth Copeland]

He really did. That's the danger. That is the danger. Anyway, listen to the rest of this. His disciples were astonished at his words. Well, they sure weren't. They sure weren't poor or that. I mean, they'd have shouted at that. How hard it is for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God. Easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished, out of measure, saying among themselves, who then can be saved? Jesus looking away. Now, the word saved, sozo, includes healing. It means soundness. It includes healing, prosperity. Saved. Saved from what? Poverty? Saved from what? Saved. Jesus looked upon them, said, with men, it's impossible. Not with God. For God, all things are possible. So my question is, who am I truly with? With all of my heart, all of my soul, all of my mind, all of my strength, all of my wealth, everything I have. It's his. Now look at this. There's no man that has left house, brethren, sisters, father, mother, wife, children, lands for my sake and the Gospels, but shall receive a hundredfold. Now, in this time, houses, brethren, sisters, mothers, children, lands with persecutions and in the world to come, eternal life. Well, certainly it's going to be with persecution. The one thing the devil fights us is financial ability to do whatever God tells you to do. He fights it. He writes dirty books about you, which I have experienced. The Lord said, don't read about yourself in any publication anymore, including social media. And there are some that, you know, they put in there, all of this property, everything on it, you know, worth anywhere close to what it says. But anything the devil can do to stop the money. I had brother Roberts tell me, he said, if the money is choke, check your love life.

[Bryce Crawford]

I think, yeah, I think you mentioned

[Kenneth Copeland]

earlier,

[Bryce Crawford]

and then we'll take a break. You mentioned something earlier. You were like, that was the danger. You know, this man loved his money more than he loved God. You know, that's why he walks away.

[Kenneth Copeland]

And I think someone said that it was actually Barnabas. I don't really know where in history they said that. Anyway, go ahead.

[Bryce Crawford]

You know, you mentioned that the dangers that he loved his mind, money more than he loved God. Like. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's hard for me personally to wrap my mind around that prosperity message is because it has a lot to do with the finances. And you Know, we talked about it. It's not necessarily the dollar amount in someone's bank account that makes money sinful or not. It's the love of money. You know, there are people that don't have money that love their money more than they love anything else, you know, But I think that's why it's hard for me personally. It really wrapped my mind around these. These things that we're talking about, because I've. I've personally seen. And I bet you have, too, seen money destroy people.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Oh.

[Bryce Crawford]

And it rocks their world. And so, like, how. How can. How can we. You know, how can. How can we, as, as believers show people who don't know Jesus at all that. That he is the prize? You know, because that. That can be attractive, you know, having the benefits of. I mean, the reality is blessing as a blanket statement. As believers, we get to be blessed in any form or fashion. That's a promise of true.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Lori and I were at a Target store one day, and this. This car, this. Tires just squealed. Brother Copeland, Brother Copeland. Brother Copeland. The Lord told me you'd be here. She had two small children in the back. I walked over there to the car. I said, well, what is it? She said, I'm a schoolteacher. My home has become more valuable. And the bank. She said, I'm only behind two payments, and the bank won't renew my loan. What do I do? I said, what's your name and phone number? So we checked out her story and paid off her house. That would have really hurt my heart if I'd have said, sister, I. I wish I could help you, but I owe so much money. I just can't do that. We have done that time and time and time and time and time again. And there's a particular restaurant that's. It's a national chain. Well, it's an Applebee's restaurant, and there's a particular one in this area. And we haven't been there in some time, but we had an Applebee's Rest

[Bryce Crawford]

ministry, an Applebee's ministry.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Got out, you know, that we would help people like that. And we did. And there were some cars involved in it that we. That we help people. And this one man was a former Marine, and Gloria wrote a book, God's will for you. And in that book is God's will is prosperity. So he read it. I mean, he read it over and over and over again. And he came in there to me one day and. And he said, brother Copeland, would you lay your hands on me? He said, I really don't feel very good now. He had a little daughter that was very, very shy. And I would do this to her and she'd come over there and finally she got to where she'd come sit by me. He said, her school teacher called me in and said, you're going to have to do something with this girl here. Why? She, she says Kenneth Copeland is her personal friend. He said, well, he is now. What? Oh. So he just bought a new truck. He died of cancer, broke his wife. He had custody of the job. So we put it together, we paid off the truck, we paid for his homegoing service and started having his mother.

[Bryce Crawford]

Praise God.

[Kenneth Copeland]

That's what it's all about.

[Podcast Host]

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[Bryce Crawford]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Bryce Crawford]

with a Higher Purpose. We talked a little bit earlier about that mark chapter 11 passage if you'd like to.

[Kenneth Copeland]

That changed everything.

[Bryce Crawford]

And I really appreciate you fixating on this passage because I think when it

[Kenneth Copeland]

comes to like this was working all the time, I turned exactly to that every time, every time.

[Bryce Crawford]

So I think for me personally one of the hardest things for me when it comes to this, this, this prosperity message when I look, I mentioned to you earlier about my co worker Mitch who who was had Little to no money. But he was obsessed with money. And I. I believe that he would always say, bryce, you know, I pray to God and I ask God for money. And if God gives me money, I'll believe in him. And that obviously never happened. And so he looks at me and he goes, well, well, God's not real. And I said, well, you know, Mitch, maybe God can't trust you with money, and that's why he's not giving you with money. And so that's why for me, it's a little. I come cautious to this prosperous message because I'm like, well, you know, when we're faithful with little, God can trust us as much with everything, right? And I don't want someone to. To perceive it as, oh, I believe in. In this Jesus, just to get the benefits of the kingdom like we. I want Jesus. Jesus is the prize and. And whatever he has in store for me, that's what I want.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Everything has to be based on this book. A diligent study of this book like in the book of Hebrews. Now, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The classic amplified says the title deed to things we hope for that you can't see that has not been revealed to the physical senses. Well, I'll believe it when I see it. That was Thomas problem. Jesus said, thomas, quit being faithless. Some had great faith, the centurion. Some had little faith, some had no faith. But the Lord just dealt with it. And so we have to deal with it. I have control where my household is controlled, concerned. I don't have control where yours is concerned. All I can do is witness to you based here.

[Bryce Crawford]

Do you think that's a common misconception about the prosperous message is they. They see you preach it, they see you reaping the benefits of it. And so they think, well, if I go to Brother Copeland, then my life's going to change because I go to him. Do you think that's a common misconception? Like, it seems to me what you're saying is if you want. It appears like what you're talking about is if you want to experience this prosperous message, you have to take it for yourself.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Well, if they come to me, I'm just going to show them what I know. Now, there's been times that people have come to me and the Lord say, you do this. There's been times people came to me and the Lord said, you let them alone. I'm dealing with them over this. You just go to the book and show Them. And so if I have the opportunity, I'm going to take it to witness. And as we were talking earlier, I baptized in the water a serial killer. Could God save a man like that? Well, certainly, and I won't go into all of that, but here's the thing. I have authority over my household, but I don't have authority over yours. If you come to me for help, we're going to sit down and we're going to pray and we're going to get this book out and we're going to discuss the problems and see what the situation is.

[Bryce Crawford]

Now, in the Bible, when it talks about how the one area to test God in is with your finances, do you believe that? That's scripture saying, when I test God with my money, I get money back. Is that what you believe? That is saying, what do you believe about that passage?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Now tell it to me again.

[Bryce Crawford]

You know, the Bible says that the one area we test God in is with our money.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Now, it said over there in the

[Bryce Crawford]

book of Malachi, I believe so, yes, sir.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Turn over there to it.

[Bryce Crawford]

And so when we go to, when we hear that in Scripture, like, do you believe that that is saying, like, if I'm testing God with my money, right. Does that mean that as a believer, they get money back? Or does that mean that they, I

[Kenneth Copeland]

don't ever test God with my money. I don't even know what that means.

[Bryce Crawford]

I believe, this is what I believe that means. Right. I'll give you an example. Like, I, when I, God called us to Los Angeles, California in 2022, and I'd never even stepped foot in Los Angeles, California, much less, I know that. I don't know that's the most expensive

[Kenneth Copeland]

place in the country or Manhattan, either one.

[Bryce Crawford]

And so I, I, so when God called me there, I'm like, well, God, I'm 18. I, you know, I can't even afford to live there. Don't know what that looks like. So I said, I'm going to act out in obedience.

[Podcast Host]

God, I'm going to move there because

[Bryce Crawford]

you called me there.

[Kenneth Copeland]

That's, that's what Abraham did every time. That's what Abraham did.

[Bryce Crawford]

I think one of the, the appeals and, and one of my cautions about that prosperous message, too, is I think there are a lot of people that could say, oh, well, I'm going to test God in that area. Right. You know, it may not make sense in the carnal to make that decision. I'm going to do it.

[Kenneth Copeland]

There's a place in the scripture where it says, that. But in testing him, you do it by faith.

[Bryce Crawford]

Now, does that mean that someone gets money back, like when they test him in that?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Well, let's turn over here to Philippians chapter four. The answer is right there. Now, you remember, this church was a convict church. Now here we're back at that passage. 4, 11. No, let's back up before that. This is so important. Verse 4. Rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful or worry. Don't be careful for nothing but in everything but prayer and supplication. With thanksgiving. Huh? With thanksgiving. What you say long enough will finally get down in your heart and begin to control your life. I had said over and over, I don't like exercise. I just. I don't want to fool with it. I'm all suited up. I'm going to obey God. And I got in there and I grabbed that thing and I said, I just hate this. No. Oh, God, forgive me. I love it. I got on the treadmill. He said, kenneth, I sacrificed my body for years. Now you're sacrificing. That's what he was after all the time. It didn't have to do with just my body. It's to keep me going, keep me moving. Finally, Greg. Brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely can be true, but not lovely. Whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report. If there be any virtue and if there be any praise, think on these things, those things which you have both learned and received and heard and seen in me. Do it. And the God of peace, Shalom. Nothing missing, nothing broken shall be with you now. Shalom. Hebrew for prosperity. Think about this. The Lord says, now, I want you to sow so much into that ministry. He asked me to do it. So something is missing in my life. I go to Mark ten. He's going to replace it tenfold. A hundredfold, Some ten, some thirty, some a hundred. Depends on what my faith and what my level is. Don't ever let it be said ever that God. God has ever put any kind of a sickness or a disease on somebody to teach them something. Book of James, don't you dare do that. Now, if something happens and he teaches you from it, that's different. But he didn't do it.

[Bryce Crawford]

Yeah. God doesn't cause suffering.

[Kenneth Copeland]

No, he doesn't.

[Bryce Crawford]

I think God can allow. Allow things.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Well, there's some things he has to.

[Bryce Crawford]

He has to allow things.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Yeah, he has to.

[Bryce Crawford]

That's where the good character. Yeah, where the good character comes from produces endurance.

[Kenneth Copeland]

So you pray and you don't listen, and you have a quickening in your spirit. Ought to wait 30 minutes and you don't. You have a car wreck. Why did you let that happen to me? Did you ever have a hunch that's your spirit trying to get ahold of you? Man, I probably ought not go right now. You better listen to that. Here's what the Lord said to me. Don't ever underestimate a delay.

[Bryce Crawford]

He's always on time.

[Kenneth Copeland]

But if he says, hold up here for a few seconds, you better hold up and let whatever problem get by that he already knew about instead of pushing your wife to get ready. And we got to go. Now, the reason I'm saying that, because I know some things where this actually happened. And a man by the name of Roy Hicks was overseer of the Foursquare Church. He actually did. He started interviews. Everyone he interviewed said, yeah, if I'd have waited a little bit, that wouldn't have happened. Or if I hadn't turned in that direction, that wouldn't have happened. Now, that doesn't mean you beat late to work every morning. My dad said, if you're on time, you're 15 minutes late. You get there before everybody. That's the reason he never had a. He always had a job during the Great Depression. Never was without a job during the Depression. So let's continue to read here. Finally, brethren, whatsoever, think now those things which you have seen both and learned and received and heard and seen in me do, and the God of peace will be with you. Now, I want to say this to young preachers. How many of them can say that? The integrity person. I don't care whether they're in the ministry or not. The integrity of the written word and the absolute integrity and understanding what a quality decision is. And then write it down based on His Word. And if you'll write your word down based on His Word, he'll honor your word as you honor his. A quality decision based on this book about which there is no more argument and from which there is no more to retreat. And I step across that line of faith, and this is where we're going. But anyway, I need to get over here and we'll answer the question that was brought up in the first place.

[Bryce Crawford]

While you're flipping, you know, I'm thinking of Matthew 6 right now. When Jesus talks about, hey, you know, kind of. Kind of hinting at what? A little bit of Paul's writing. Don't be anxious about anything.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Oh, yeah.

[Bryce Crawford]

God clothes, the lilies of the field in their beauty. And they don't try. And he feeds the birds of the year with them out trying, you know, how much more will he provide for you? And that gives me peace as a believer with stepping out and big decisions.

[Kenneth Copeland]

In First Peter, Chapter 5, it helps

[Bryce Crawford]

when making big decisions, cast the whole

[Kenneth Copeland]

of your care over on him.

[Bryce Crawford]

Absolutely.

[Kenneth Copeland]

And pray a lot.

[Bryce Crawford]

Absolutely. A lot. I think my, my biggest. The thing that, that's, that's hard for me to understand or the cautious thing, again, like with that, that prosperous message is, I think, to people because we're human beings and we have that human nature. The thing that's more attractive to people about this prosperity, health and wealth message is those things rather than Jesus. And so, you know, when I, when I think back at that time I moved to, to la, like, I didn't step out because I wanted some benefits and blessings. I stepped out because I wanted Jesus himself.

[Kenneth Copeland]

And that's because what he told you.

[Bryce Crawford]

And I'm trusting him. I'm trusting that his way is better.

[Kenneth Copeland]

That's it. But then why would a farmer go out in the field and produce a crop and then not take any of it? Because he didn't want to go against God. Let me tell you, my spiritual father, Oral Robert, they were itinerant preachers. I mean, they didn't have any place to live. And he said they were in a. He was pastor of a church in Enid, Oklahoma. This was before the really Healing Miracle Ministry started. And he wrote a book called Seedtime and Harvest. But anyway, she said, oral, you get a house for me or I'm taking these kids. He said, you wouldn't do that. She said, said, you just try me. Well, in a Wednesday night service, he had been paid his $50. And he said, I don't know what came over me. I just said, anybody got a hat? And he said, I started it. I put our $50 in that hat. He said, I got home. And she said, oral, you didn't do that. He says, you think it is cold in January? But he said, I got a knock on the deacon's door at 3 o' clock in the morning and I got up and answered it. He said, it was the wealthiest farmer in the county. He said, oral, I'm ashamed of myself that I didn't put anything in that offering. He said, I've been playing the stock market. I'm about to lose my farm. But I know I'm a farmer and to get a crop I'm going to have to sow a seed. He said, I had this in a can and I went home and I dug it up and it was four $100 bills. Brother Roberts said we had never seen a hundred dollar bill. He said, I just went in there and I just fanned that out and said, this is our harvest on that 50. Well, that's the fourth chapter of the book of Mark. The sower sows the seed, and it never did talk anything about the sower. It always talked about the soil upon which it fell. So right here, well, I think in that. Here is where it is in that

[Bryce Crawford]

chapter of Mark, in Mark, chapter four, those seeds that he. Because Jesus explains that parable, he wasn't necessarily talking about money, he was talking about like the gospel going forward.

[Kenneth Copeland]

But how does it go forth?

[Bryce Crawford]

It goes by people delivering the good news.

[Kenneth Copeland]

That's right. But they don't have. They can't do it for nothing. That's the reason he said, some 30, some 60, and some 100 fold. But he shows why some had entered into their heart, they let it fail. The thorns choked them out, that persecution arises for the Word's sake. But here it is, verse 15. You, Philippians, know also that in the beginning of the gospel I departed from Macedonia. No church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but you only. For even in Thessalonica you sent once again to my necessity, not because I desire a gift, but I desire fruit that may abound. To your account I have all and abound. I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you. An odor of sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God. My God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. Now let's go back over here.

[Bryce Crawford]

God provides for our needs. And that's what you. And that's what you read here at the, at that end of that. That Philippians 4, God, God providing for our needs. And I think even that for me, when I hear that prosperous message, and I think a lot of people that, that. That are listening to it, the attraction is they think, oh, I'm going to get the things that I want. Want.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Well, what about the 23rd John?

[Bryce Crawford]

For the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. We shouldn't want. We lack nothing with Jesus.

[Kenneth Copeland]

That's right, my wants. It depends on what I want and why. The apostle said, he gives us richly all things to enjoy. Well, I enjoy motorcycles But I don't spend all my time messing with those things. I spend thousands of hours doing this other than messing around with an airplane or those motorcycles. But I enjoy them.

[Bryce Crawford]

That's a genuine question I had. That's something I struggle with, is understanding. I'm an extreme person. Me personally, personally, like I'm all in on something when I love it. And so welcome to the club. What, what is that? What is the fine balance? You know what I mean? What's the balance of, of not being excessive? Like where, where do you draw the line? Personally, where do you find, hey, this is something I enjoy versus this is something that may be sitting on the throne of my heart.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Let's take a pastor for instance. The old thing you, you keep we. You keep him humble will keep him broke. I'd like to know where that is in the gospel. It isn't in there. You don't muzzle the oxen that treads out the corn. And you study these covenants and why they're there and what they say. I've seen this happen. I'm sad to say. You don't pay the pastor so much money. It hurts the church. And you don't keep him down enough that it hurts him and his family. So you set guidelines from this. And you don't have a deacon possessed church. You have a God ordained church. And you have a board of directors. Not a board of trustees. Well, you could call them that.

[Bryce Crawford]

I get what you mean when you say that though.

[Kenneth Copeland]

A board of directors. And on our compensation, they are men that have no way of receiving anything financially. Now everyone else in there, they have something to say about it. But these men that are on that compensation committee, then they will meet, they take all of the finances of the ministry, they take everything in account, all of it. And have since day one. They take everything that has to do with anything in the account of the ministry. That's first what I call the rolling stock. We didn't build the out here. Brother Roberts built a prayer tower. We built a chapel. First building on the property. 1500 acres of land, an abandoned airport. We didn't put this airport back into operation for years and years before we ever touched it. That's not worth the money. Meant we were keeping our airplane somewhere else. That's fine. We get in the car and drive. But you have these men where you sit down and you discuss it. You take the finances of the ministry, you take all of this put together. What is this part doing? What is this department doing? We had a worldwide communion service one time. A man by the name Thomas Clyde McGee. And every time you use your satellite in your car, you say, thank God for Tommy Boye, a born again, Holy Ghost baptized believer with a slide rule. Put that first satellite out there 24,000 miles and made it in the orbit of this earth. Did you ever hear of the Blackwood Brothers Quartet? I mean, if they were doing a concert, I mean, Christians would come from all over to see the. His wife was a Blackwood and they called them birds. And a man by the name of Halverson would get down in front of Clyde and he'd say, birds. Birds. Come out birds. Clyde, you haven't yet. Yeah, I know what it means. Birds. And he said, kenneth, I'd get hung up and I'd go home and I'd say, baby dawn, let's pray. And the Lord would give him the answer. He put the first satellite out there. So I called him. I said, clyde, the Lord has directed us to have a worldwide communion service. And can you do that? Yeah. I said, how? He said, I don't know. But you know Philippians 4? You know the little plastic cups we do communion with today?

[Bryce Crawford]

Yeah.

[Kenneth Copeland]

When every time you think you say thank you. Brother Clive Wrigley did that for us in the Fort Worth Convention Center. We had 15 people in there.

[Bryce Crawford]

Wow.

[Kenneth Copeland]

And they did that so that we didn't have to use glass ones. It resulted in a 6 million dollar deficit. I waited till the middle of the night. I got a board meeting the next day. Best meeting we've ever had. Best year we've ever had. TV, 24,000 or 6 million in debt. And I said. He said, the TV department is the one you carried. You didn't roll the care of that over on me. Gloria, get down here now. Well, you could. I mean, you gotta have what you got. The bill and then. That's 6 million. It was in record time. And for the first time in history, we paid our T check. And we've never been behind anymore. I'm not carrying that anymore. But we had worldwide communion. It was just a magnificent thing, but all of it is based right here.

[Bryce Crawford]

Well, I appreciate you opening it up with me and going through.

[Kenneth Copeland]

Listen to this. Now, here it all is. Let me ask you something. The fruit in the garden.

[Bryce Crawford]

Correct.

[Kenneth Copeland]

What do you think it was?

[Bryce Crawford]

Well, they say it was the knowledge of good and evil.

[Kenneth Copeland]

I mean, what was the fruit like?

[Bryce Crawford]

What actual fruit do I think it was? People always describe it as an apple. That's the basic.

[Kenneth Copeland]

What did they dress with leaves? It was the fig tree. And, oh, I'm telling you, he upset. I mean, he upset everybody on that coat. They went their way, found the colt tied, and certain of them stood there. What are you going to do with it? He said, like he said, and with many garments in the way, and others cut off boughs, and they went crying, Hosanna. Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord. Blessed is the kingdom of our Father David cometh in the name of the Lord. Hosanna. Oh, you tell my. Listen. He really caused love, trouble, friendship then, and I like to think of that like this too. They weren't worshiping the colt. He was the carrier. I'm the colt, and he's riding my bike. Seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if happily, he might find anything thereon. The fig tree and the leaves are supposed to be there at the same time. Nothing but leaves, for the time of figs was not yet, well, the leaves were there too early. And he answered and said to it, no man eat fruit of you hereafter forever. And his disciples heard it now. He had gone into the temple the night before and came out and waited till the day to do anything. He went back to Bethany and he did all. Is it not written, my house shall be called a nation and prayer? You've made it a den of thieves. So now when he cursed that fig tree, he didn't look back, he just headed Jerusalem. He didn't pay attention to it. Peter calling remembrance, said master or rabbi, behold the fig tree. This fig tree paid the price for that one in the garden. Praise God. Whether he did or not, I like it. Oh, wow. It looked good to me, which you cursed as withered away. I mean, this thing just was nothing. But the fig tree provided the opportunity. Have faith in God, the reference says. Have the faith of God. For verily I say unto you, this is a whosoever shall say unto this mountain, be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea. And shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass, he shall have whatsoever he says. And in the therefore I say unto you what things soever you desire. When you pray, believe that you receive them. And when you stand praying, forgive if you have ought against any, that your Father also in heaven forgive you your trespasses. If you don't forgive, neither will your Father in heaven and forgive you. And that's it. We stop, pray and listen. And that's what built this ministry, this and the other verses around it. Gloria and I our family. John Terry, George Kelly, both sides of our family honored our fathers and mothers all the days of our lives. And Jeremy is pastoring a church up in Green River Falls, Colorado. When he I wore a vest and pocket watch he get me a vest I peach he'd been preaching all his life. This then is the bottom line. A book of covenants. It's the holy Bible. And this is just as much God as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.

[Bryce Crawford]

Do you care if I pray for us really quick as we close?

[Kenneth Copeland]

Please do.

[Bryce Crawford]

Jesus, thank you so much for today. God, thank you for allowing brother Kenneth to spend time with me and us have a conversation about his upbringing, his life, Jesus and and. And this this prosperity message, what it looks like navigating it the hard conversations. God, thank you for this day. Thank you for breath inside of our lungs. Lord, would your face continue to shine upon us. We love you, Jesus. It's in your name we pray. Amen.