The Bulwark Podcast: “Tom Nichols: The Buzz Has Worn Off”
Date: December 23, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Tom Nichols (Staff Writer at The Atlantic, Professor Emeritus at U.S. Naval War College, Author of "The Death of Expertise")
Overview
This episode brings Tom Nichols back by popular demand for a sharp, wide-ranging, and darkly funny discussion of the current state of Trump’s presidency, recent political and defense news, the waning enthusiasm in Trump’s base, and notable stories like the latest Epstein document revelations and the controversial 60 Minutes segment. Through their trademark irreverence and deep policy knowledge, Miller and Nichols analyze the substance (or lack thereof) behind the latest headlines and try to make sense of a year that has been, in Nichols’ words, “a festival of crudity and bad taste.”
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Trump’s “Golden Fleet” and Battleship Fantasies
[01:47–11:55]
- Trump held a press conference announcing plans for a new class of massive, supposedly awe-inspiring “golden” naval ships (“Trump-class”). Tom Nichols, with 25 years at the Naval War College, immediately dismisses the proposal as “nuts.”
- Nichols: “What the Navy has figured out is no, we need to be maneuverable…What Donald Trump wants are big…He’s in love with the idea of battleship.” (02:32)
- Trump’s vision is compared to the Great White Fleet, but Nichols warns such old-school displays inspire little but mockery among defense professionals.
- There’s no practical plan or infrastructure to actually build these colossal ships:
- “You can’t just snap your fingers and say, create a super ship that glitters and sparkles and inspires awe and finally…Even Putin doesn’t name classes of ships after himself.” (05:14)
- Trump’s fantasy ignores operational realities: U.S. naval personnel are already exhausted, the tempo is unsustainably high, and a “Trump-class” would just be a giant, slow target.
- Addition of nuclear weapons to surface ships is revealed as particularly alarming.
- Nichols: “If you’re a big, slow, ocean-going platform with nuclear weapons sitting on top…it’s just dumb. It’s so dumb on so many levels. As the French say, it’s so stupid it makes my teeth hurt.” (11:40)
2. Trump’s Deteriorating Performance and Strategy
[11:55–14:47]
- Tim asks for Nichols’ takes on Trump’s public appearances—his speech sounded “slushy” and meandering, particularly when asked about Venezuela.
- “He did not seem to be in good health.” (12:08)
- In response to a question about Venezuela, Trump dived straight into blame-shifting to Biden and border issues, displaying poor focus and evasion.
3. Venezuela Escalation: ‘Splendid Little War’ Theory
[14:13–17:19]
- Nichols posits that Trump may be provoking Venezuela into action with the goal of starting a minor foreign conflict (“splendid little war”) to consolidate power domestically, claim extraordinary executive authority, and rekindle his “wartime president” narrative.
- Nichols: “I think that Trump is hoping to provoke Venezuela into some kind of action…in which he can then say, America’s at war, I’m a wartime president.” (15:18)
4. Epstein Document Dump & DOJ Streisand Effect
[19:43–29:14]
- DOJ issues a disclaimer about newly released Epstein documents, attempting to minimize impact—ironically amplifying intrigue due to the “Streisand effect.”
- Nichols recounts the origin of the Streisand effect (“When you…draw attention to something you don’t want to have attention, it creates more attention.”) (21:05)
- Specifics from the released files, read by Tim:
- Letter from Epstein to Larry Nassar: “Our president shares our love of young, nubile girls. When a young beauty walked by, he loved to grab snatch…” (22:21)
- DOJ email noting Trump flew on the Epstein plane eight times, sometimes with possible witnesses in the Maxwell case. (22:33)
- Images of Trump with Maxwell and Epstein, and details about the Maxwell plea agreement shrouded in secrecy.
- Nichols and Miller hone in on the hypocrisy and the shifting standards of political accountability:
- Nichols: “There was once a time in the United States where this lack of judgment and poverty of character would be enough to say you don’t need a legal reason to not want him to be in the Oval Office.” (25:13)
- Discussion of a lack of accountability for Ghislaine Maxwell’s lenient prison conditions, highlighting possible political favoritism.
5. The Waning MAGA Buzz & Trump’s Erosion of Power
[29:58–41:10]
- Nichols observes that, for the first time, Trump seems unable to “invigorate his base”—flags, hats, and bravado are fading.
- “The flags and the bumper stickers and the yard signs are gone, which I think is an interesting change.” (37:58)
- Stories from both hosts about decreased public displays of Trump support even in deep red areas.
- Economic grievances are now hitting Trump’s core supporters (e.g., job losses in counties that voted overwhelmingly for him), further diminishing the bargain they felt they were making in 2016/2020.
- Internal GOP feuds are evidence of Trump’s diminishing muscle:
- “The Trump family don’t have that kind of muscle anymore.” (36:20)
- Indiana GOP pushback is cited as a bellwether moment.
6. Media Capture and the 60 Minutes Immigration Story
[45:47–52:53]
- A 60 Minutes exposé about a Venezuelan asylee, Luis Munoz Pinto, deported from the U.S. to a brutal prison in El Salvador, was abruptly killed for further “review”—because the White House didn’t provide a comment.
- Nichols denounces the move as granting the government a veto over journalism:
- Nichols: “That is an absolutely bonkers rule to put into place that unless the government answers your phone call, you can’t run the story.” (49:22)
- The move backfires, again via the Streisand effect, as the story gets amplified online.
7. Year in Review and “Dignity” Satire
[54:37–57:53]
- Miller plays a clip of a Trump supporter claiming that Trump’s defining theme for the year was “dignity.” The hosts mock this as “North Korean levels of nonsense.”
- Nichols: “A hot shambolic mess that is a national and international embarrassment, a festival of crudity and bad taste.” (55:52)
- Both agree that, compared to a year ago, Trump’s administration has lost much of its perceived durability and menace, despite causing significant damage early in the year.
8. Holiday, Music, and Outtro
[57:53–59:20]
- Nichols shares that he’ll be writing about “songs for a new Christmas nostalgia” and suggests “Christmas Wrapping” by The Waitresses and Billy Joel’s “She’s Right on Time” as seasonal favorites.
- The episode closes on a light, nostalgic note, hinting at a shared longing for cultural touchstones in turbulent times.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
On the Shipbuilding Fantasy
- “What Donald Trump wants are big…He’s in love with the idea of battleship…He’s so stuck in his youth; he wants the USS Wisconsin and the Iowa belching their guns at the bad guys.”
— Tom Nichols (02:32–03:15)
On Trump’s New Naval Fleet Speech
- “Even Putin doesn’t name classes of ships after himself. Kim Jong Un doesn’t name things. I mean, this is crazy. We’re going to run around in circles because this unhinged old man, you know, wants to have a ship with his name on it."
— Tom Nichols (06:09)
On Shambolic Leadership & Waning Base
- “The buzz of beating Kamala Harris and getting back into power has worn off in part because I think that they understand that this administration is a clown show.”
— Tom Nichols (40:35)
On the Streisand Effect
- “When you draw attention to something that you don’t want to have attention, it creates more attention.”
— Tom Nichols (21:05)
On the Epstein Documents and Political Hypocrisy
- “It shows you the depth to which Trump supporters have basically said, listen, we just don’t care about any of this. He hates the people we hate, and that’s all we care about.”
— Tom Nichols (26:51)
On Dignity in the Trump Era
- “If I had to think of one word to describe Donald Trump and his year, it is dignity. That man has dignity. Grabbing, snatch, dignity, everything he does. Dignity.”
— Tim Miller (55:17)
On Accountability for Character
- “There was once a time in the United States of America where this lack of judgment and poverty of character would be enough to say you don’t need a legal reason to not want him to be in the Oval Office.”
— Tom Nichols (25:13)
Timeline of Essential Segments
- 01:03 – Tim introduces Tom Nichols, setting a festive but acerbic mood.
- 01:47–11:55 – The “Golden Fleet” and critique of Trump’s military spectacle.
- 11:55–14:47 – Trump’s press conference deconstruction; Venezuela and “wartime president” speculation.
- 19:43–29:14 – Epstein documents, DOJ public relations blunder, and their broader cultural implications.
- 29:58–41:10 – Discussion of shifting MAGA enthusiasm and Trump’s fading influence in the GOP and red America.
- 45:47–52:53 – Dissection of the 60 Minutes immigration story suppression and its consequences for press freedom.
- 54:37–57:53 – Satirical “dignity” review of Trump’s year and closing holiday recommendations.
Tone & Style
True to The Bulwark’s reality-based and center-right skeptic brand, the episode is laced with biting humor, frank policy analysis, and a sense of deep institutional frustration leavened by Christmas melancholy and nostalgia.
For Further Listening
If you want a blend of dark political comedy, exasperation at the absurdity of our political moment, and flashes of real policy expertise, this episode is both cathartic and illuminating—even (or especially) for listeners left shaking their heads at America’s “festival of crudity and bad taste.”
Merry Christmas from The Bulwark Podcast!