Nicolle Wallace: The Sore Loser Is Trying to Ruin Our Elections

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Nicolle Wallace: The Sore Loser Is Trying to Ruin Our Elections

Date: July 17, 2026
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Nicolle Wallace

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Episode Overview

In this vibrant and often frank conversation, The Bulwark’s Tim Miller welcomes MSNBC's Nicolle Wallace for an unfiltered discussion on the current state of US politics. The focus is on Donald Trump’s ongoing efforts to undermine election integrity, the complicity of right-wing media and Republican officials in his messaging, and the psychological toll of fighting disinformation and autocratic drift within American institutions. The episode also highlights the need for resilient, reality-based political communication and considers where hope and heroism might exist amid the chaos.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Trump Election “Big Lie” Redux

• Trump’s Pre-Speech Preview: Miller and Wallace dissect Trump’s latest hints at another speech about "election integrity," recycling claims of fraud, foreign interference, and institutional betrayal.
  • Notable Quote:
    “It’s the most cynical thing I think I’ve seen him do. He’s going to ask his base to swallow this most brazen pile of absolute bullshit lies…” – Wallace (05:08)
• Logic of the Narrative: They critique the illogic of Trump encouraging his own supporters to believe only the election he ran was fraudulent, implicitly admitting his own incompetence.
  • Notable Quote:
    “If he can make his base swallow a narrative rooted in the fact that only he presided over an election that was fraudulent, then I think you can make them believe anything.” – Wallace (08:02)
• Dealing with Disinformation: The hosts discuss the futility of fact-checking Trump’s loyal base, noting they are ensconced in an alternative reality. They suggest a more effective rhetorical strategy is to take Trump’s claims at face value and expose their internal contradictions.

2. Media & Political Complicity

• Fox News’s Role: They condemn Fox News for perpetuating electoral falsehoods even after paying nearly $800 million in the Dominion lawsuit.
  • Notable Quote:
    “Fox is a part of the story… the only network that paid nearly a billion dollars because their internal communications proved that they knew they were knowingly lying about election fraud… So, were they lying about knowing they were lying?” – Wallace (11:27)
• Republican Lawmaker Cowardice: On-the-record and anonymous Republicans are depicted as privately anxious and cynical, unwilling to challenge Trump publicly but relying on others to “save” them from uncomfortable truths.
  • Notable Quote:
    “How do you get up out of bed in the morning if you're these people?” – Miller (15:18)
• Weaponization of DOJ & Rule of Law: Wallace expresses particular anger at DOJ and FBI leaders (Garland, Wray, Monaco) for abandoning fired subordinates to public smearing and professional ruin after Trump-linked purges.
  • Notable Quote:
    “Any leader whose people are being persecuted and prosecuted and investigated [and] stay silent… there is none. Because the agents that have been… fired… the idea that the people above those people are silent is, to me, one of the gravest abdications of leadership…” – Wallace (25:09)

3. Democracy, Communication, and the Need for Fighters

• The New Political Reality: Both hosts mourn the receding era of bipartisan commitment to liberal democracy at home and abroad, recalling John McCain as a symbol of the old order.
  • Notable Quote:
    “I really feel like we're always one leader away from something different. I always did. I'm not sure if I still do.” – Wallace (36:52)
• What the Anti-Trump Movement Needs:
  • Fighter Mentality: Wallace urges the Democratic Party to choose a nominee with a “Tier 1 communication skill set” and scars from battling Trump.
  • Big Tent Against Autocracy: She rebukes old habits of narrow, ideological infighting, arguing instead for unity: “The fights have been too small for the gravity of the moment… It’s not about fighting harder. It’s about demanding that everybody fights for the same thing.” (52:23)
• Reflections on “Losing”: Both hosts agree that while anti-Trump forces have fought hard, the true challenge is in re-centering the message on democracy and communicating it to a broad coalition.

4. GOP Figures and Compromise

• Lindsey Graham & Mitch McConnell: The opportunism and legacy of both are addressed. Wallace is unsparing about Graham’s capitulation post-January 6th and McConnell’s silence, expressing heartbreak at the abandonment of principles in pursuit of power.
  • Notable Quote:
    “I’m not a fan of a single Republican who capitulated to Donald Trump over nine years and brought us to this breaking point of American democracy.” – Wallace (34:23)

5. Maintaining Focus and Sanity

• Workflow and Editorial Priorities: Wallace shares insights into her show’s editorial ethos—staying focused on a few core stories each day, not being swept up in the “blur” and outrage cycle that helps authoritarians.
  • Notable Quote:
    “He benefited from the blur. So no, more like 10 stories. We do like four stories a day… The thing that unifies the most is the mission of a broadcast.” – Wallace (54:33)

6. Hope, Heroes, and What’s Worth Fighting For

• Cultural Vacuums: Wallace laments the silence of cultural figures, contrasting it to the Bush years when musicians and artists fiercely critiqued politics.
• Jack Smith as Hero: After a landmark interview, she sees DOJ public servant Jack Smith as someone who restores faith in American institutions—committed to public integrity, not partisan vendetta.
  • Notable Quote:
    “Jack Smith is ten times better than I’d hoped he would be… When you see up close what Trump is purging, he's not purging people who are against Trump. He's purging people who are for the American people.” – Wallace (58:46)
• A Call for Reality-Based Optimism: Both hosts close by calling for unity, communication, and a renewed focus on defending democracy, not nostalgia or internal grudges.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump Making His Base Swallow His Own Contradictions:
  “He’s going to make his base swallow this absolute shit sandwich…” – Wallace (04:23)

• On Fox News’s Dominion Lawsuit Aftermath:
  “Were they lying about knowing they were lying? Were they deceived? To re-engineer a lie even Trump believed wasn’t true…” – Wallace (11:27)

• On Democratic Messaging Needs:
  “You need someone who says, look, I need everybody there who doesn't want to live in an autocracy. And if you're going to have a fight about who you sit next to on the plane, get the fuck off the plane.” – Wallace (52:23)

• On Culture’s Silence:
  “It’s absolutely disorienting that… people who I’m sure have problems with Donald Trump are silent, are chilled, are intimidated or afraid to speak out…” – Wallace (57:15)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:44 – 07:51: Trump’s pre-speech, the logic of The Big Lie, and why fact-checking MAGA doesn't work
• 11:20 – 16:32: Fox News, Dominion, Republican Senator complicity
• 19:11 – 24:03: Jack Smith, the destruction of the rule of law, and psychological impact of long-term Trump exposure
• 24:51 – 29:57: DOJ/FBI silence, institutional abdication, cost to public servants
• 31:56 – 36:52: Republican figures (Lindsey Graham & McConnell), legacy and moral compromise
• 42:42 – 45:38: How Democrats can be bold, rooted in ordinary life, and avoid being trapped as the “defenders of the system”
• 46:28 – 48:46: What Dems need in a nominee: “a fighter,” communicator, and unifier
• 54:33 – 56:34: Show focus, mission, and resisting the authoritarian “blur”
• 56:36 – 59:14: Heroes segment: Jack Smith, Bruce Springsteen, and hope for a return to public trust

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Tone & Style

Frank, at times profane, and always sharply analytical, the conversation mixes gallows humor with determined optimism. Miller and Wallace’s candor about emotional fatigue, outrage, and the almost absurd contradictions facing America’s institutions is balanced by their insistence that reality, focus, and courageous leadership still matter.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode serves as both a warning and a rallying cry: The threat to American elections is rooted as much in cynical storytelling and elite cowardice as in outright lying. The only antidote, according to Wallace and Miller, is relentless truth-telling, staying emotionally engaged (without burning out), and demanding a coalition that puts democracy above tribal ideological disputes. In a landscape full of “shit sandwiches,” they find reason for optimism by recognizing the everyday heroes still fighting quietly for rule of law, public service, and a better American future.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

all right everybody, I just wanted to give you some programming notes for while I'm away. Since this is the last pre vacation podcast we got you obviously a great guest, the best person I could think of. Here's the plan. Next two weeks we're going to have summer Fridays. So no show. On Friday you'll get four Bulwark podcasts. Each week we're going to have different guest hosts. All your Bulwark friends, Sam, Sarah, jvl, Bill, some surprise guests. It's going to be great. Show might come out a little bit different time wise. A little later, a little earlier. You know how it is. And these guys, they're all busy and they're all doing this for me as a favor, working extra time. So if you could do me a favor and you know, be nice to them, send a positive feedback in the comments, let them know you appreciate them, I would be grateful to that. So I will see you guys in two weeks. Up next, Nicole Wallace. Hello and welcome to the Bullard podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is the last pod before you're rid of me for two weeks and so I had to bring in a fave, a friend. She's the host of the best people podcast. She's the host of Deadline White House. Every Monday through Friday at 4pm on Ms. Now it's Nicole Wallace. Hey, Nicole.

[A]

Hi, friend. Where are you going?

[B]

I am going to Germany and then France and then Mexico. So we're covering the whole world. Covering the whole world. Stowaway.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

Yeah, so yeah, we're do gay dads in Europe and then family at the beach.

[A]

I love it so much.

[B]

Like last year I took one week off. What's your vacation schedule?

[A]

Oh, this is so bad. So I've taken two days off to a baseball tournament and I have all this like vacation guilt. It should take a couple weeks. I've got.

[B]

You have a guilt guilt to go away.

[A]

You mean I have like a. I have vacation guilt? Yeah, I've got to get over it. It's a me problem. There's not. There's not any reason I should plan a vacation. You're inspiring me.

[B]

You do have to get over it. Here's why. And here's why I'm doing two weeks this year. It's two reasons. One, last year I did one week to go see Oasis with my friends, and I came back and it was like the worst week of my life.

[A]

Yeah. Reentry is brutal.

[B]

And I was like, you know, I feel like reentry will be better if at the end of the vacation, then I do bonus time with family, where it's just the family. I feel like by the end of that, I'll be like, you know, put work. Sounds fine.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Two weeks is a good stretch. I feel like the older you get, the longer it takes to be on vacation, so the longer you have to stay on vacation.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The other thing is I just. And this kind of ties to our topics. The next two years are gonna be insane. And we have a dementia riddled old man.

[A]

You said that for 11 years.

[B]

I know, but that's what I'm saying. I was like, I don't see how I can take two weeks next year and we're gonna have literally two presidential primaries and a dementia riddled aut trying to hold on to power.

[A]

I mean, I'm afraid to leave the. You know, in those circumstances, you know, you want to make sure your passport's current and whatnot.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. I know. I had the lawyers that tell me, keep the phone off at customs. It's fine. The cash is. Cash is. Otherwise right now, I don't think.

[A]

No whiskey bottles for us.

[B]

Custom. We're pre taping this Trump's speeches in a couple hours. But as you said in the green room, it's. It's always old crazy with him. It's no new crazy. So I think we can speak about it as if we've seen it exact what we know so far. When asked by a reporter, he said that the reporter asked if it would concern election machines and integrity. Trump said it would concern that subject. And we'll have a couple other things. Really big news. Our country has to shape up. That's what we're going to be talking about. It doesn't get bigger without free and fair elections. You don't have a country. There's some reporting that he's going to mention. China interference trying to get voter rolls. That is something that's been reported for years anyway. I don't know. Are you going to be watching? Do you have your popcorn ready?

[A]

No. So here's my issue with this, I can't get through the gate of the total fuck you to his supporters because what he's going to say is, when President Barack Obama was president, the election was free and fair and I won. When President Joe Biden was president, the election was free and fair and I won. When I was in charge, I fucked it up so badly that I lost. It's like an epic, epic, epic mindfuck to his own base. He's going to make his base swallow this absolute shit sandwich of like, I'm the only one that can fuck it up. I mean, what, is he going to hire John Brennan tonight?

[B]

Yeah. Bring in some people that know how to do the business.

[A]

It's. It's the most cynical thing I think I've seen him do. He's going to ask his base to accept. He's going to ask Brian Kilmeade to go on TV tomorrow morning and anchor a newscaster. Brian Kilmeade is going to have to tell the morning, you know, MAGA viewers, Obama and Biden ran free and fair elections with election integrity and Trump didn't. And you know who was running National Intelligence? Rick Renell until May of 2020. And then John Ratcliffe. Is he gonna fire him tonight?

[B]

Good question.

[A]

I mean, his dudes were in charge of election integrity. And he's gonna make his base swallow this most brazen pile of absolute bullshit lies that of the last three presidential elections, he's the only one that couldn't protect us from China or Iran or whoever he's gonna say hacked him.

[B]

I think that's a very important frame. I'm one thing that you can do. I feel like sometimes you end up talking past Mag, as we all do when they're talking in their delusions and you're trying to fact check them and it's like they're unfact. Checkable. Correct. They've been 10 years just kind of stewing in lies and an alternate reality. And so like the fact checking is a fool's errand. And so sometimes a better.

[A]

It's like crime statistics when they're all ginned up about the cities and you're like, actually the crime. And it's like they're too stewed in terror about American cities. And so it's the vibes.

[B]

What you're doing is you're taking at face value, you're saying, okay, fine, all right, sir, you're right. Great. The election was stolen. Really? Why, why isn't Trump figured it out by now? He was the only one that couldn't secure the elections. He was the only one that couldn't ensure that he had a free opportunity at the ballot place. Who was in charge of that? Who did he fire? Did the buck not stop with him? It's kind of like Cory Booker in the Todd Blanche hearing. When he was asking Todd Blanche, he's like, so you went to meet with Gillian Maxwell? What? What'd you get out of that? Do you have any leads?

[A]

Right. How was that for you?

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's one thing to not be accountable to the truth, and I feel like, as ex Republicans, I am rooting for Democratic candidates because it's the only party that houses reality and the truth and supports democracy. But in terms of not having a dog in the fight, what is the limit for the absolute toxic? Makes you look so stupid that you're actually gonna believe that the only election that was stolen from Donald Trump was the one that he ran. And if this isn't it, then what is? It is what I wanna know. If he can convince him of this, that he ran three times and the only one that was stolen from him was the one he was in charge of, then I think we're just in a different timeline than I think even you and I, in our sort of sometimes grim outlook, think we are.

[B]

You're cussing a lot.

[A]

This story is so triggering. I called Von Hellyer and apologized after I had him on this story to me, because it makes me Sweet Vaughn.

[B]

You cussed in front of Sweet Vaughn?

[A]

No, I didn't swear, but I was. So to me, this is it, right? To me, if he can make his base swallow a narrative rooted in the fact that only he presided over an election that was fraudulent, then I think you can make them believe anything.

[B]

You know, I wrote this newsletter yesterday before break about, like, not getting numb. And I was focused on the state violence because it's the thing that makes me the most upset. And then I get. I get myself more and more upset when other people aren't as upset as I feel like they should be. You know about it. And. And, you know, Sarah and I were talking about this on the next level, and Sarah is apoplectic about Todd Blanche. She is doing the same rant you're just doing about the election about Todd Blanche. It's like, how can we have a system if the president's personal lawyer is running the Department of Justice? If it's a total hack and it's the person that did this and that, you can go listen to her rant. I need to redo It. And it's like, this is the kind of flooding the Zone with shit thing with Bannon. But I think this is an important way to combat it, because we're all. You're trying to think about how to navigate all this. And maybe the right thing to do is just for people to grab on the things that enrages them the most and be the dog with the bone on that thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, rather than.

[A]

Well, just to be at doggy daycare together with all of our little bones, you know, until we land the plane. Like, I think that's the cause.

[B]

This one for me is like, I'm with you. Everything you said is right.

[A]

I'm with you.

[B]

I only have so much room in my body for, like, anger.

[A]

I remember when I was on with you last time, we talked about the. Basically the kidnappings and taking men who hadn't been given their due process rights to seacot. And I remember Fox News, like, lost their mind that I said that. Those stories. I was gutted by those stories. And it's like, I think at the time, I could still be sort of startled by an attack from them. But I guess the question is, why aren't you? Why are people okay with anyone depriving anyone of their due process rights, especially before they take them out of the country and lock them up in a terrorist prison?

[B]

It's funny, I re. Listened to that to see if there was anything, because it was about a year ago. Exactly. And so I was like, I wonder how I'm thinking about things different. And not as much as I would have thought. Actually, the Trump story is rather similar. But one thing that just related to that is you were talking. We had a little Jeb talk at the end, and we were talking about meeting the Cubans and kind of that culture. And the expat. And I had John Blitzer on this week, and it's like, the Cuban expats, like, the Cuban Americans are being treated worse than anyone. I mean, I guess not worse than the Haitians or Venezuelans, but maybe they're third on the list right now. What is happening then? They're being sent to a third country, Mexico, where they're not. Where they're illegal there and they're not allowed to work, and they're just dumped on the street like it's a Breaking Bad movie. And, you know, they just dump them in the middle of the desert, and it's like, good luck. This is what we're doing to people fled communism in the country. And it's like, to your point about why aren't you matter at Fox, it's like why the Secretary of State is a Cuban and his family came from Cuba. And it's like Fox, this was the big issue over there, right? Whether it be red foot, dry foot or like this, if there was one good group of immigrants, it was this.

[A]

In all of this.

[B]

And all of them are saying nothing. I would imagine it's not even on Fox like that. The Cubans are getting dropped to Mexico. They don't even know. The hosts probably don't even know, right?

[A]

And the thing about the election lies for me is if you follow the threat and I know we're post truth, I know we're post fact, I know that it's quaint to ask for consistency, but Fox is gonna have to cover this speec somehow and are they going to ask Dominion for their money back? So like, like Fox is a part of the story, a big part of the story is the only network that paid nearly a billion dollars, I think $800 million, because their internal communications proved that they knew they were knowingly lying about election fraud. So were they lying about knowing they were lying? Were they deceived? Were they, I mean, to re engineer a lie that even Donald Trump, according to Sarah Matthews, testified that Donald Trump said to her, I can't believe I lost to this fucking guy, Joe Biden. So like even Trump thought he lost. Mark Milley testified that he said, well, let the next guy deal with this. He's president. I mean, Trump believed that he lost and that's why he was charged criminally by Jack Smith. Right? For part of it was the fraud, part of it was obstructing an official proceeding. If they found people corrupt enough to go out and re engineer something that Trump knew not to be true at the time, then I just think we're in a new place.

[B]

The brain can play tricks. You can convince yourselves a lot of things. Rationalization is very powerful. Compartmentalization is powerful. You can tell yourself a story in this one. It's like part of the story they've been telling themselves recently is that we are obsessed with this. Anytime January 6th comes up, anytime somebody brings up January 6th, they're like, well, could you guys just move on from that? This is not a big deal anymore. You guys are, you guys have derangement over this. And so that was their way of out of this. I don't have to deal with this because this is old news now. We're moving on. And Trump's like, no, you need to Eat this again. You need to go back into the fantasy world and tell yourself some story that lets you get to the place where the same lies that you paid a $787 million judgment on are now lies that you have to either repeat or just even pretend to think might have some legitimacy. Yeah.

[A]

And to me, it's the same people, right? I mean, John Ratcliffe, I remember, I think it was. I was driving down to the city. So it was like Saturday because it was Covid still. So it was Saturday or Sunday night before the election, and Ratcliffe had a press conference and put something out talking about election interference. So it wasn't like he wasn't consuming the stream of intel in which whatever tonight's revelations are rooted in wouldn't have been sourced as well. It's not even about us. It's about making these sycophantic anchors at Fox News feed something that even they know, even they've communicated amongst themselves, as we know from that lawsuit, to be untrue to their viewers. And I think that's just. It's not that it's a new low because there's nothing lower than the dehumanization around the ICE stuff. I agree with you. That's the most heinous sort of bucket of conduct. There's probably nothing more dangerous than the weaponization of doj. So I agree with Sarah. But there's nothing more cynical. There's no sort of abuse of the affection of their base like the election lies.

[B]

It's not just the Fox guys, it's the senators. I got a kick out of this. I was reading Politico this morning again. This is in the preview to the speech. Trump administration ally anonymous granted anonymity by Politico to say this. The people I talk to are scared shitless. They're scared shitless about what does he add to the text? What does he ad lib? They as John Kennedy, a senator, like, oh, I wish he'd talk about the economy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do you get up out of bed in the morning if you're these people as part of it? You know, it's like one of. I would have more respect for John Kennedy or for this anonymous official to be like, I'm curious what the president has uncovered. Like, at least it's like you're in year 10 of pretending like you might do something different.

[A]

And what he missed, like, how did he miss it? This was all he was. Bill Barr goes on CNN before the 2020 election and announces that they will be investigating and prosecuting election Fraud. Like John Durham went in and he spent eight hours with John Brennan. I mean, you've interviewed John Brennan and been on with him. Like, they have kicked all the tires around all the intel around everything relating to the 2016, the 2020 election, and they couldn't find anything in 2020 that would have change. So there's no read that isn't one, totally fabricated. And two, it's just the most cynical thing you can do to your own voters. Like, it's just such a mind fuck. Heading into the midterms, where what he should do is what Kennedy said, talk about the economy and try to turn his base of voters out. I don't know over what I guess he could have signed the housing bill or, you know, I don't know what still works. I don't know what still gets them excited, but I hope this isn't it.

[B]

You can at least pretend to have an idea. And that is like the craziest part. And we talk about this a bunch of the shows. Like, that's to me, the craziest part part about the economic messaging and the lack of it. It'd be one thing to be like, hey, to do the old Trump schtick. Like, hey, it's going to be the best. It's going to be the biggest. We've got this plan. It's the cheap prices for all plan. And it obviously bunk and bs and it's probably just a handout to his friends, but at least he would have that. He doesn't even have that. It's like all he's capable of talking about is the 2020 election or stealing the next election or the ballroom or the pool. That's what he's talking about.

[A]

Tom Reynolds. Yeah, and I think I've talked about this on the show. I redid a bathroom and didn't spend that much time talking about it to the contractor. And he's literally talking to the country about the intricate details of a project, very much in the planning phases. It is the weirdest fixation that I've seen him have in 10 years of covering him almost every day.

[B]

I think everybody who listens to this podcast is going to not be surprised to hear that I'm not particularly organized. I'm losing things all the time. Nobody goes to the find my iPhone thing on their computer where it forces their iPhone to beep more than I do. I'm pretty sure I go to that site more than anybody on planet Earth. I mean, I probably have 100 of these earbuds. And in addition to the phone and the headphones. Sometimes I'm also misplacing my wallet. I don't know where I left it. I don't know where it is right now, actually. And if you're somebody like me that's losing stuff all the time, you should turn to our friends at Ridge. They're here to help. Ridge has a tracker cart, which means you'll always know where your wallet is or if you're my mother. I come from a long line of people who lose things where your purse is or where the wallet is supposed to be in your purses. The Ridge wallets themselves have a unique, slim, modern design that holds up to 12 cards plus cash. They have premium materials like aluminum, titanium and carbon fiber and over 50 colors and styles to choose from. For a limited time, our listeners get 10% off at Ridge by using code the bulwark at checkout. So if you're finally ready to ditch that giant, crusty, falling apart leather brick wallet, give Ridge a try. All Ridge products have a lifetime warranty, and this is literally the last wallet you'll ever have to buy. Ridge also is not about just about wallets. They got power, banks, key cases, suitcases, rings, all built with a great design and all made so you don't lose them. For a limited time, our listeners get 10% off at Ridge by using code the bulwark at checkout. Just head to ridge.com and use code the bulwark and you're all set. But after you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. You had Jack Smith on a couple weeks ago now talking about all this. It was really good and obviously I was jealous.

[A]

He's so good.

[B]

It was appropriate that I think he was on the show because of what we were just talking about. I mean, your show probably more than any is just so consistent and focused on this fundamental democracy issue that he was at the center of. And I was just wondering what you made of his of that convo.

[A]

So they called me and asked me to do it the Friday before the 4th of July. And I said, I can't do it. And I didn't call my boss and I didn't call my ap. And I was like, oh, my God, I may have just lost Jack Smith's first interview. I'm going to get fired. But then, lucky for me, they called me back and said that he could do Thursday. So it was the Thursday before the 4th of July.

[B]

It's interesting he wanted that. He started the interview with that, it's interesting. You said that he was like, he wanted to do it around the Fourth of July. He felt like that was important.

[A]

He's so substantive. And so I think there was something about the feeling and the meaning of the Fourth of July that meant something to him, and it means something to everybody. But I think to him, it was like a good time to start talking. He hadn't done any interviews yet, and I think he did. Jon Stewart's podcast with Brian Driscoll, the fired top FBI official. He is, to me, different from the way you and I come at these things in that I can prattle off every trespass and every. I mean, I remember paragraphs of stories Mike wrote that he doesn't even remember writing. I have this photographic memory of just.

[B]

You pull out quotes from the January 6th Committee sometimes.

[A]

I know the footnotes of Mueller Volume 2, where Trump asked Don McGann to write a fake memo lying about a press story not being true when it was really true. I just. I've covered the story in a way that I think because I didn't come out of television, I really tried to learn the Trump story. It's the first big story that I covered. And my show started the day that Comey was fired. So I started my show with Jack Smith saying that the show, more than anything else, has been about the destruction of the rule of law. And I guess two things. One, Trump is so successful in making people like me feel like we have Trump derangement syndrome. What's wrong with us? Just get on board. The country's hot, you know. No, no. Like, we are correct in our concerns about the destruction of the rule of law. And now there's not really any debate. Like, Todd Blanche is doing it in full view of everybody. So I guess, like, one, I was struck by the fact that someone on the inside agreed with that assessment that it's really bad. It's really bad. The department's being hollowed out. Having worked in the government after 9 11, like, that's really scary to me. That department sort of, along with the CIA, like, stands on the line between us and everything threatens us. But the other thing is that there are people thinking about what comes next, and I don't allow myself to do that. Like, I feel like sometimes when I read novels, if they're causing me stress, I'll go and read the end to see how it turns out. Okay, okay, I'll keep reading. But I don't let myself. Yeah, yeah. Because my nervous system is shot. Like, nine years of Covering Trump, I like things like the Bear and I like, I really can't watch a lot of, like, super suspenseful things that'll cause, you know, like horror movies used to be, like, for that rush. And I can't. I just, if I'm reading something, like, I read a lot of thrillers, and if I'm reading a thriller and it's. And I'm up really, really late by myself, I'll have to go to the back to make sure that the, you know, the hero lives. But I don't let myself think forward in the Trump story. Like, I try to stay right wherever we are with whatever is happening. Cause to your earlier point, there's already too much. Right. There's so much.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He's thinking a lot about the other side. And so when I cover, like, why do people stay? Why would you stay and be part of Patel's corrupt FBI? The reason people who say you should stay as long as you can is because I think there's a belief that when you go to put it back together, when you go to put democracy back together, you need some people who were sort of in there holding the line from inside. And so I was really. It's just not part of it that I think about a lot because I've been out of the government for so long.

[B]

The people that still got to do the job.

[A]

Yeah. And when I said, like, they just stay until there's a friction point with Todd Blanche. And he said, absolutely. I mean, you don't betray your oath. You're not part of the destruction of the rule of law, but you stay until you have that friction point with this new regime. It was sort of a new way to think about it. And I guess for people like us, I mean, it's a little more gray. It's not black and white. If you're inside and you're working on something that is so far untouched, if you're working on cyber, you're working on child trafficking to the degree that they even still do those things. I mean, I don't know, he made an argument that I hadn't really heard persuasively before about why you stay as long as you can.

[B]

The thing that struck me is he, I mean, obviously he's so poised and serious, such a real person compared to the clowns we have in there. But he was just kind of matter of fact about how. Yeah, and the president wants to put me in jail, so I had to get a lawyer. And then the president went after the law firm. And so this Was kind of in the context of you asking him why more people aren't speaking out. And I think you singled out Chris Wray, and he's just like, look, this is what happens if you speak out. It isn't. They just come for you. They come for Jim Comey's daughter. They come for the people you hire to protect yourself. Right. So you have that option obligation question. I wonder how persuaded you were by that answer. Because it's a genuine question, because I vacillate. I feel like maybe sometimes those of us who are talkers are like, more talking would help. And I think that's true in some cases, and maybe in other cases, I don't know, it's a little more gray. As you said.

[A]

I think there is zero excuse that any leader whose people are being persecuted and prosecuted and investigated stay silent. He did not persuade me of any argument for Merrick Garland, Lisa Monaco, Christopher Wray to stay quiet. None. There is none. Because the agents that have been. Walt Giardino, I think is his name, who was fired while his wife was dying of cancer, didn't, you know, as far as we know, didn't beg to go work on the cases for which he was fired for being a part of. They were cases that were assigned to him. I mean, I've never been an FBI agent, but I imagine it isn't like circle time where they go around and they say, who wants red? Who wants blue? Who wants. I imagine you get assigned cases based on expertise, Experience. Experience and location. And the idea that the people above those people are silent is, to me, one of the gravest abdications of leadership and honor that I've covered.

[B]

I'm kind of like, what does a day look like for these people? This shows my obsessiveness, but I'm like, what is John Kelly doing today? Sometimes I wonder. It's like, what is the. It's not like they can't be busy.

[A]

Well, see, the military guys, I have an identity different in a different.

[B]

Yeah, sure, I picked him instead of Mattis in particular, because he left the military to be chief of staff.

[A]

So, yeah, I mean, I. I put the DOJ and the FBI people in the category I do for the harshest criticism, for their silence. Because what? Like. Like Lisa Monaco, who was confirmed in a bipartisan manner, is staying quiet because what. Because she ran the Department of Justice, but she's not responsible for the prosecutors who've been fired brutally and abruptly and unjustly. I mean, why not speak out and defend Liz Oyer or Brendan Blue or all of Jack Smith's prosecutors. She was their boss. Merrick Garland. I met with him before he left and was so emotional and heartfelt about the men and women of the Justice Department. He's never shown that publicly. Why not? And some of them might say it wouldn't help. It might help the people who've been fired who are being investigated. It might help them find lawyers if Merrick Garland were out vouching for their character. And I guess my thing is, you don't know what would help. I mean, I remember you and I talking after Trump won, and we sort of looked at each other like, oh, my God, we gotta do this every day, because that's our job. And you just put one foot in front of the other. And I don't know if it helps, but I know that if being afraid of what someone was going to do or say got into my head, I couldn't do my job. And so I don't know what leader of any institution thinks that leaving their people on the battlefield to be investigated, prosecuted, persecuted, smeared and maligned, it's an unprecedented abdication of leadership role.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I don't know. You could maybe sell me. There's strategic things happening behind the scenes. There's a strategic time to reach out

[A]

to people, have a leak that you and I don't know about.

[B]

Yeah, no, no, no, it's not happening. That's what I'm saying, though. I just don't think that's happening. And the Ray thing strikes me as much, too, because it also goes to this core narrative of this administration that he is uniquely capable of speaking to. Right. A. Like, they care about the rule of law and the cops, and they're the back. The blue guys, and they're the ones that want to keep you safe for criminals. And it's like. Well, no, actually, I understand that if you were the person on the Iran portfolio at the FBI that got assigned to the Mar A Lago documents case because Trump had Iran war plans there. To your point, they didn't pick that case like they were there because Donald Trump had the fucking Iran war plans in his bathroom next to the cougar den at Mar A Lago on the pool deck. That's where the plans were. And so they had to get pulled in. They got fired. Obviously, I get that they might not want to speak out. I don't know any of these people. But they have to get jobs. They don't have families. Chris Rake can talk about how important they are. Though better than anybody, I would think,

[A]

or that they didn't do anything wrong. The problem is that you and I see them as career public servants, and we haven't been pickled in 10 years of bullshit lies about the FBI. The MAGA base is stewed in 10 years of bullshit lies about THE FBI. So these people that have been fired aren't just people who were fired for touching the Trump cases. The MAGA base finds them to be corrupt, rogue, criminal. They've been smeared and maligned. So forget about whether or not it makes a difference in terms of whether they keep their jobs. Every single person above the chain of command of all the fired FBI agents and prosecutors owes every single person who's been fired by Trump. Blanche and Patel, their reputation's back. That is what they are owed. I don't think they could get them their jobs back. I'm not sure they could even get them lawyers or law firms to represent them. One thing they could do with the 67% of Americans who disapprove of Donald Trump is get them their reputations back. And that they refuse to do that is, I think, one of the biggest disgraces that we cover in real time.

[B]

I agree. There's this guy, Kyle Serafin. You know that guy? Do you know that name at all? I only know him because of Will Sommer. God bless Will Sommer. In the False Flag newsletter, he's just like, he had a beef with Cash. He's like, this MAGA FBI guy gets fired, he gets a beef. And so I follow him on social media now, and his social media, if Kyle's watching, God love you, but some of the stuff he posts is insane. You know? I mean, like, he is maga, okay? Like, he is conservative and he's.

[A]

And he's down with cash.

[B]

No. Hey. But no, this is what I'm about to say. When he talks about Cash, he sounds like us. And this is kind of like how, like, even these conservative Republican senators, like, are in the books, like, anytime or anybody that quits, like, anybody that is then all of a sudden free to be honest, like, sounds like us. Because that's what the truth is, right?

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And so it's like, if Kyle Serafin, who's like this rank and file, like, guy who got the wrong way with Cash, can pop off and talked about all the corrupt things that he's doing and all the ways he's mismanaging the FBI and the way he's making us less safe, then surely the rest of them can. I guess that was my point.

[A]

Well, so I said this. We've been covering Trump for 10 years, right? least longer. It feels like Rachel said yesterday, 47 years. It feels like 47 years. So I've covered every book that's come out, and you have to be cognizant of stuff on the right and the left. There has never been a book or a revelation or an article or an interview that's come out that reveals anything positive about any of these people. Right. Like, once they are free to talk, they say worse things than you and I do. J.D. vance, Mitch McConnell and John Kelly have said much worse things about Donald Trump than I ever have. They call him despicable. They call him damaged. They call him broke. Just things that I wouldn't know because I don't see him up close. Close, they're credible. But there's never been an occasion where someone who is up close with Trump leaves and says anything more positive than when they said when they were working for him. It's always the other direction.

[B]

Okay, you mentioned Mitch. Let's do the Lindsay and Mitch stuff. How have you been thinking about the Mitch story? What's happening with that?

[A]

I'm not going to let them change me fundamentally. Right. Like, I'm not going to dance on anybody's grave.

[B]

But Mitch is alive, so you'd be dancing on his.

[A]

Right? That's right. Well, so I'll tell you this about Mitch. I said this to Heather Cox Richardson yesterday. You know, he's older and he's been pretty public about his. Like, he had polio as a child. He lost speech from a podium. So I wasn't surprised to hear that he had a health challenge. And I wasn't suspicious until Scott Jennings posted that he talked to him for 25 minutes about foreign policy. And I texted Dana Bash and I said, is Mitch dead? And she said, no. Scott Jennings just posted about him. I said, that's why I wondered if he was dead. So I wasn't suspicious. And what is interesting to me is I'm not on Twitter, but supposedly the right is just as suspicious as the left. So I don't know what's going on. I think life is legacy. So I don't have anything new to say about Lindsey in death or Mitch in sickness, but I find it heartbreaking. There's no way these guys agree with the Donald Trump foreign policy. And there they are. There they were.

[B]

I'm not looking for a grave dance. I'm just curious about your personal reaction on Lindsey. You had to know Lindsey pretty well before all this, right? And you guys had to hang out.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, Marco Rubio and Lindsey Graham were the most brutal critics. More brutal than Jeb, when you worked for him in 2016, of Donald Trump's lack of character. Lindsey Graham looked into a camera in the primary in 2015-16 and apologized to Muslim members of the American military for Donald Trump's racism and bigotry. Do you remember that? No, I don't remember if it was on a debate stage. And then after January 6, he said, it's been real fun, but I'm off. I'm out. And Lindsey just couldn't stay away from power. It's a pathology I'm not qualified to diagnose. But I think that he did a lot of damage to the democracy. I think he did a lot of damage to the men and women who protected him on January 6th. I've seen some of the statements from them, and I'm not a fan of a single Republican who capitulated to Donald Trump over nine years and brought us to this breaking point of American democracy. He could break our democracy to make night.

[B]

It's interesting. It doesn't feel like you have conflicted feelings about it at all with Lindsay. I mean, some people do.

[A]

What do you mean? How do you feel?

[B]

I don't know. I just. It's made me a little melancholy. I mean, because I haven't liked Lindsay lately, and I obviously. And I don't, like. I don't want to pretend like we're good friends. I knew him pretty well, and he'd call me. He had my phone number, and it was really funny and affable, and there were things he really cared about that I really cared about. So I don't know. The whole thing is, like. It's sad.

[A]

Look, I worked for John McCain, and John McCain loved him, but one of the things they loved together was the democracies under threat by Russia. And Lindsey Graham didn't break up with Donald Trump. When he threw Zelensky out of the Oval Office, he seemed to hug him just as hard after as before. So I thought I believed some of the same things that he did, but I'm really not so sure.

[B]

Sure, it does take me a little bit to, like. I wanted to kind of just get the Nicole temperature on the America 250 stuff. Obviously, Jack. And he wanted to say. But the McCain thing. Mark Salter, I'm sure, you know, well, is McCain's speechwriter. I should have him back on the pod, actually. It's been years.

[A]

Probably wonderful.

[B]

He's so wonderful.

[A]

He's so brilliant. He helped Cassie Hutchinson with her book.

[B]

Oh, did he? I didn't know that. He's such a good person.

[A]

Anyway, so good.

[B]

Last time he was on, years ago now, he talked about. One of the cool things about working for McCain. Whatever your complaints were about McCain is he goes. Anytime we went somewhere in the world where there was an autocrat trying to deny people rights, no matter what it was Africa, Eastern Europe, Asia, whatever, and John McCain would go somewhere and we would go to meet with leaders or go to a school or something, there would be somebody there that'd be like John McCain. That is what America is supposed to be. You are fighting for us against this tyranny. And certainly not every policy was perfect or whatever, but that was this goal. I mean, it was the shining city. It was the old line. Right. And he represented that. One of the other things that makes me melancholy recently during the. Is like, I wonder if that's just gone. I think there's certain things that we can save and protect. We can protect our democracy and fight for it, but I don't know if that is savable. If we are in a world where it's kind of like, you know, that every four years you might end up getting a person that's going to be on the side of the fascist. And I don't know, I just wonder if you think about that at all. You and worked for McCain.

[A]

I really feel like we're always one leader away from something different. I always did. I'm not sure if I still do, but I. Yeah, you don't let yourself think about that.

[B]

You already talked about that earlier.

[A]

Right. I don't let myself pull the thread too far forward. I would say this, though, like, I don't know who wouldn't give Orban's successor a meeting or a chance. Like, I think when we rid ourselves of Trumpism the way Hungary's rid itself of Orban, I hope that the world gives us a chance. If we prove that we want to be something different than corrupt and hostile to our allies and ignorant of the value of our alliances and indifferent to the role that Russia plays in aiding Iran while we're at war with it. Like if some. If we as a country, if our people choose something different, I hope that the world will give the leader that the American people choose after this, if it's something or someone different, a chance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you think?

[B]

I'm thinking about it. I don't know if you have a question for me.

[A]

I'm gulping down coffee and trying to get my head around it.

[B]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, you keep drinking coffee. This is the point of the podcast, okay? I come on deadline, and it's like I gotta have a 90 second spiel, all right? So I gotta give myself.

[A]

You can always have more than 90 seconds.

[B]

I know. I'm just joking. I'm just joking.

[A]

Sometimes Kalman takes, like, six minutes.

[B]

Okay, well, that's not a model.

[A]

Simon's the new Schmidt. Like, I feel like I can ask him a question, and then if a story's broken, I can. Like, it's the best. It's the best. And it always lands. Like, he always, like, sticks forward.

[B]

He brings it back around and just kind of goes down a tributary, the river. And then he comes back and hits the main body.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

I guess you just think about. It's all before my life. Obviously, things can change over time, and who knows what the future holds and, AI, you can get crazy talking about this stuff. And when I had Pete on this week, he was talking about 2050, and I was like, I'm glad there's somebody like Pete thinking about 2050. But that's. Who the hell knows, right?

[A]

How's Pete? I asked you this on the TV show, but you got him at such a raw moment for Pete. How did he see him?

[B]

Pete's mad.

[A]

He's mad.

[B]

I just, like, he's mad and he's Pete. I think that's what I said on your show. His emotional range is not as high as the rest of ours, which is probably good for a leader, but, like, he's mad. He cussed twice on the pod. I don't think I've ever heard him cuss before. Maybe I have. I can't. I couldn't remember. And then off camera, because I asked about Chastity on the pod, and you could kind of tell he didn't want to talk about it. And I've met Chastity a couple times. I know him a little bit, and I just feel for him. I connect. And so I asked him off camera about it. I don't want to reveal it, but again, you can just tell he was, like, really upset. You know what I mean? It wasn't fake. You know what I mean? It wasn't this. I wrote the newsletter. It's like sometimes when people, bad things happen, people want to say, oh, you're just playing the victim card. You're just playing the game. And it's like that, listen, that was really bad. It was really painful for them. But also on the other Hand, I thought he was really good at the speech at the Iowa Des Moines dinner. And I think that he's always been good at arguing on Fox and pretty good at Q and A, but he's never been really a Goosebumps guy for me, other people. But I thought he was. It's interesting. I don't know, there's something about the second Trump and him being in the wilderness for a while. Maybe it just happened. I don't know. I thought his speech was. Was really good, so whatever that's worth.

[A]

Well, I thought it was interesting that you asked him, like, did part of you want to say, like, fuck off, you're not taking my kids. And to me, to the person at the door. Right. Like, it shows that, like, there's only one side still, like, respecting the rule of law. And I thought that was so interesting. And in some ways it is in and of itself optimistic. Right. That, like, he's still, in his own telling, in his statement or their statement, they put out, they feel like the cop, you know, believes them. And so to me, there's also this rule of law layer to it where he's sort of still in this system that Trump is burning down. Can you imagine if that happened, if anyone did that horrible, horrible thing? And hopefully no one ever does that again. Hopefully publicizing it means that no one ever does it. But there's such a. It's such a disorienting moment. Yeah.

[B]

Between the sides, really. Oh, we were talking about the McCain thing. I don't know. So here's my thing with Pete, because this does kind of relate, actually. It's like the other part of the conversation with Pete was just how, you know, Democrats shouldn't always be the ones who are feeling forced to defend the system. And people were unhappy about the way certain things went and foreign policy and government, and I get all that. Right. And so you find yourself, you know, even when you want to say, hey, we want radical change, I want things to be different. Like, you're still by nature, respectful of the way things work of other people and stuff. And so it's hard to be the revolutionary when you have that. And I feel like that's just the same thing with foreign policy. I kind of feel like this has been dumped on the Democrats now, where it's like, it's hard to imagine. And we haven't had that. And Since World War II, every president, both parties, bad people, good presidents, whatever, they've all believed in some basic rule of law abroad, liberal democracy. We should, to varying degrees, support and protect it. And it's like, I think that's over on the other side. And so then I just think that changes things as well. And so it's like Pete and whoever it is on the Democratic side can have a bold plan for how things should be different. But fundamentally, it's like, you're never going to be the radical with. The other side's going to be like, you know what? Actually, fuck France. We're going to side with Qatar when they give us a plane. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. But here's. Here's where I think this is around the energy that you sort of give to it. Because I think that Trump is so corrupt and so extreme and so disinterested in any foreign policy, economic policy, or like, grifting policy that helps a single person that voted for him that you can be for. You can be for things that'll be radical after Trump that aren't actually that radical. Like, to say that while you're president, you cannot also trade in. In the stock market would be like a radical departure from where we are.

[B]

Trump traded like a teleprompter. Person cannot trade in the cashy market, which is a story today. Apparently his teleprompter operator made $100,000.

[A]

So to be. For things that are widely accepted will be a radical departure from where we are. I think the Democrats have to really root themselves in the moment and be. For fixing all the shit that just feels like it's. Have you ever had a shitty. You probably don't have shitty vacation rentals, but, you know, like, you go and it's supposed to be sunny and then it rains. I'm not that uncle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just feel like you'd have. You'd have your arms around it better than I did. But, like, so you're right. Like, like the house is leaking everywhere. Like, people are pissed off at the grocery store, they're pissed off at the gas station. If your military family, like, like, we cover his erratic posts about Iran because there are signs of instability and lying. If your family's in the military, there are signs of when they're or not. Right. It's like, how much longer will the deployment be? So you can, like, level set the things where Trump is so off the rails and it would be a radical departure from where we are right now without being like, traditionally radical. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah. How do you think they're doing at that, the Democrats right now?

[A]

Well, I think Ossoff gets better every time he opens his mouth. I just interviewed him, he was really good in the.

[B]

What was it? The Clayton testimony.

[A]

He was really good in the parking lot two days ago. Like, every time they ask, like, he's just, just on the moment and able to. And maybe it's living, you know, he seems to be someone who isn't always in Washington. Right. Like, I feel like half the time we get him, he's. He's in so like, living among his neighbors. Like, if you are living in your community, going to events with your kids as. As you do as well. Like, people are talking about, like, they're worried about eating salad this summer because they don't want to get the diarrhea parasite. They are like, what is that data center story? Like, people feel like things are spiraling out of control. Regardless you voted for and where you come down on immigration, nobody wants an ICE jail in their neighborhood. Like, there's all this stuff that just feels so unmoored. And Ossoff feels like plugged into the stuff. People actually talk about Warnock, too. And I don't know if it's like a Georgia magic kind of thing where, like, there's.

[B]

Well, it's a little bit that you have to talk to real people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And by real people, I mean, like, you know, not people that are totally in your bubble, you know.

[A]

Yeah. And it seems to aid the people who aren't in Washington all the time to talk like that. I'm still a Chris Murphy fan. Like, I think he gets the autocracy and corruption stuff really, really, really viscerally and can communicate. I mean, I feel like the Democrats are at the first stage of acceptance where they understand they need a communicator. I've tried to sort of stay out of the primary. Like, as an ex Republican, I feel like zero people care about my opinion about who they should vote for the primary.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying hard to stay neutral on those two for the same reason. I'm always just like, I'll have you on after the primary. Every once in a while, something will catch my eye that I'll feel the need to pop off on. But for the most part, I think that's a good instinct. As an ex Republican, I also don't know that I'm that helpful to anybody. I'm kind of like, would you want me saying it? But anyway.

[A]

And I'm an ex Republican, so the more progressive people don't always resonate with me. But I'm for saving democracy. And to save democracy, the Democratic Party is the only one that seems to be really interested in that. And so they should pick people who they think can do that and can win.

[B]

So separate from that, maybe from the ideological fissures, from your opinion, obviously the resistance, the Democrats, whatever you want to call us, pro democracy movement, didn't nail it since he got back in there. You know what I mean?

[A]

We did not stick our landing.

[B]

Okay. We did not. So what would be your thoughts on what we didn't do? Right. Or even just if it's more forward looking? What.

[A]

So here's my. I don't have a lot of thoughts. I have one like you need a fighter, right? Like that's the thing that you actually need practically and you actually need politically. And if you want a fighter, I would go find someone fighting him. Right now you've got a couple of people buckets like, like it sounds like OSSOF and Warnock are going to have to fight for the legitimacy of their, of the offices they hold. Even though I think Warnock ran again two years later and won. But so like people that are fighting him every day is where I would look first. The six lawmakers who made the video telling men and women to ignore illegal orders. I've been in a fight with him. He tried to indict and prosecute them. And the reason we don't lump them into a lot of our retribution conversations is because the grand jury refused to indict them. But had the grand jury been, I don't know, in South Florida or you know, somewhere else, like we could have six indicted lawmakers for simply telling men and women of the military to ignore illegal orders. I would take a fighter. And I think that like someone with a Tier 1 communication skill set, some scars from being in a fight with Donald Trump. And I think redefining like uniting the party, the party doesn't need to unite around like every policy. The party needs to unite around saving democracy. Democracy. And so I would pick someone who can communicate, who can fight and who can sort of redefine and reframe what a unifying candidate means in this moment.

[B]

I don't disagree with any of that. But I guess my one thing I think that is worth chewing over is, I don't know, I mean, if you look back the last 10 years, I don't think that anybody can say that the anti Trump movement didn't fight Trump hard enough. They could have maybe didn't fight him. Right. Or they didn't do the right thing every now and then. But there was a lot of fighting happening, got back in there. I agree that people want A fighter and that that's important. I think that when you look at, listen to your answer, like the communication side. God love Clinton, Biden, Harris, but I don't, you know, they all had things that they're good at from communication standpoint, but they all had things that. Not as good so that could be approved. You don't look at that and think, well, we did, we did the fighting and it didn't work. Does that. Is that demoralizing at all?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, look, losing side. I mean, like, you've got a kid, like, losing a baseball game, losing a. Soccer, like, losing sucks. But, like, look at the Knicks, like, they literally lost every first quarter. It's like, not about what you lose. It's about how you dust yourself off and go, like, clothes and yes, Democrats have lost two of the last three presidential elections to Donald Trump, and it fucking sucks. But J.D. vance and Marco Rubio are no Donald Trump, for better and for worse. Like, they just have to figure out how to go in. There's no analysis of the psychology of winners and winning that has you spending as much time in the past as the Democrats seem committed to doing.

[B]

It's interesting. You're, in a way, not directly, but I think that the way that your show is, is almost offering a model because you don't do that. You don't do the struggle session stuff on the show.

[A]

Mostly because I don't get it right in the Republican Party, if you lose, you just get up and go try something else. And it yielded Trump. I'm not defending it. I'm just saying they're patterns. And I think the Democratic Party. There are enough people in this country who are unhappy with Donald Trump. There are enough people who want to fight autocracy. There are enough people. I mean, 80% of Americans think immigration is a good thing. That's the highest number in like 30 years. There are enough things that have changed after they've seen how Trump is trying to change the country that there's plenty to go fight for. And I do think those three things are our, our entry. Like, like, varies to entry. You have to be a modern communicator, which means, like, you don't sit with your comms team and decide who to talk to. You figure out how to talk to everybody, right? Like, it's not like you sit down and pick, like, will I do Larry King or will I do Tom Brokaw? You sit down and you, and you, you, you have time to sort of think, sleep, exercise, talk to people and communicate. Like, that has to be like the new framework of how you run in this moment. But then the next thing is like, what? Why you on focus fighting? Like you're fighting because you don't want to live in a country that's an autocracy. And who do you need to bring along? Everybody who feels that way. Right. So you need this bigger pool. And it's not about the politics of subtraction. Are like, if I add Liz Cheney, I'm going to piss off Bernie Sanders. Like, that is over. You need someone who says, look, I need everybody there who doesn't want to live in an autocracy. And if you're going to have a fight about who you sit next to on the plane, get the fuck off the plane. Like, the fights have been too small, small for the gravity of the moment. And so it's not about fighting harder. It's about demanding that everybody fight for the same thing. And we can go back to fighting about policy. We should. Right? But as long as Trump or Vance or Rubio are there, we know what they're going to do. They're going to ask for primetime airtime to pedal lies about things that happened while they were in control of the fucking government. That's where we are and that's where we're heading.

[B]

I've been watching Roe this week, and it's like, okay, we'll say, what do you want about him or his ideology or quibble or disagreements? But you don't look at him and say, oh, this is a magical communicator. This is Barack Obama or whatever. But he was on Fox this week. He was on drop site, like the lefty TSA friendly site. He was on my show. He's everywhere and it's like, he can do it and that's important.

[A]

He's a great communicator.

[B]

It's like, not as hard as it. I just, I think people psych themselves

[A]

out of stuff or they're afraid of the negative news cycle. I also think some of it is. I'm getting dragged right now for something I said to Jim Acosta that I stopped airing Sarah Huckabee Sanders press avails because having worked in the White House, to see her lie from the podium actually gave me a physical reaction. And I feel like eight years.

[B]

Who's dragging you for that?

[A]

I don't know. But it's like that used to really bother me and used to really be in my head. But I really think winning in this moment is so much about mindset and focus and whatever you want to say. About MAGA and Trump, and I don't have any visibility into their mindset. But the focus is diabolical. The focus is on the three big lies they tell about Democrats and liberal cities being. I'm sure you have MAGA people in your life who every time you go to New York are like, be careful. I was like, what? I mean, of what? Like, crime's lower here than where you live. But you know, there is such a. And again, this is just like hardwiring. Like, the right is sort of hardwired for this. Like, repeat, repeat, repeat. And under Trump, when that's all being done in bad faith, they've drilled in all these lies about the left. And I think the left needs an equally capable and focused counter communication.

[B]

How do you keep the focus on the show in the morning? I kind of imagine you with the whiteboard with like a marker that's just like, I know everybody wants us to talk about this stupid story where everybody's fighting, but that's an X. We're not doing that. They can do that on the next hour because your show is remarkably focused.

[A]

Well, I think I've talked to you about this. Like, when he won a second time, I was like, he benefited from the blur. So no, more like, no more like 10 stories. Like, we do like four stories a day. Like, we really. We've really. Like, sometimes I do two. Like yesterday I did Clayton and Blanche and Ice.

[B]

Yeah, but so like your guy in the morning, as he sends you 10, you cut it to three or.

[A]

It's just, everybody knows it's very collaborative. I mean, I don't know. Pat Berkey is my ep, and he'd probably be appalled if I said, like, we share part of our brain, but like the Trump part of the brain. Like, he was producing all of MSNBC's live coverage of the 2015, 2016. So a lot of like the stuff that I remember he was the producer of for Brian Williams, who I was on with. I mean, I think that we have the best team that does this. And I rely very heavily on a team of people who are each one of them individually smarter than me and collectively, I think smarter than anybody else that does this. And then I have, you know, like you said, like, there's stories that we've been covering now for so long that you just like, they're all logged in in the brain. But to me, the thing that unifies the most is the mission of a broadcast. Right? Like a podcast. People are choosing you. They want you a broadcast. You still feel Some obligation to kind of land on the thing that affects the most number of people. And to me, the threats to democracy are that they're also consistent with what I thought I was involved in the Bush years with furthering. And I know that's going to be a very polarizing thing to say, but a lot of people that worked for the President really believed in the democracy agenda. And I know that comes with a lot of toxic baggage that people won't agree with. But for a lot of us, we believed, as he believed, that spreading democracy was a good mission. And the boomerang that, like, we can't even protect it here at home is particularly startling to me.

[B]

Can we end at a positive?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

In fact, during COVID you always did heroes.

[A]

You ended with a positive life well lived.

[B]

I struggle with that. Do you have a positive right now? Is there a hero? Is there a life well lived out there?

[A]

My hero at the moment, and I think I said this to Ari Melbury. I saw him in the office yesterday. Like, I really try to never meet my heroes. I had a chance to meet Bruce Springsteen and I was so nervous that he wouldn't be as great as I needed him to be. And he was like, 10 times greater. He was so great. He told my son that he needed some younger fans. And my son was like, yeah, you do.

[B]

When was it that you met him?

[A]

I met him when he came to New York City. We went to the concert in Square Garden. Yeah. On his Land of Hope and Dreams tour.

[B]

Yeah. See, I noticed that you've been shouting him out. It worked. He charmed you. You've been shouting him out.

[A]

A little. Actually, I've been tracking. I mean, I make you do these segments. I've been tracking culture because I find it absolutely disorienting that, I mean. And you, I'm sure, feel this, like, having worked for George W. Bush, like you couldn't get away from culture, weighing in on politics. And that was healthy. Right. Like, it was an outlet for all the things that people didn't like. The fact that culture and all these people who I'm sure have problems with Donald Trump, are silent, are chilled, are intimidated or afraid to speak out is shocking to me. So I think his stepping into the Minneapolis story was a huge deal. And showing up with Tom Morello for the concert, I think the first show was there and then going on the Land of Hope and Dreams tour was a big sort of wake up moment. Now I'm disappointed that not a lot of people seem to have followed, but I think maybe that comes as the election nears or if it feels less scary. But I would say Jack Smith is 10 times better than I'd hoped he would be. And like, I think if you made a partisan point to him, like, he, it would just. It wouldn't. He wouldn't not get it. It just wouldn't. You wouldn't get anything from him because it's not how he's wired. But to hear him talk about, like, there's no public, like, they gutted the Public Integrity Unit. That doesn't mean, like, that's not a liberal own. That means the American people are going to be so fucked when someone comes and uses their, their, their position of power to steal from them. Like, like he's, he's this true public servant. And when you see up close what Trump is purging, he's not purging people who are against Trump. He's purging people who are for the American people. It sort of restored my faith in what we're fighting for. Right. Like, I feel like you and I are fighting for not a return to the past, but a level set to public trust to when, like, the government, actually, we didn't know any of their names because they were just doing their jobs and they were working for the Americans.

[B]

If they did the wrong thing, they were held accountable because people do wrong things.

[A]

And, like, that's just fired. Yeah. I really feel really, really, really, really fortunate that I got to interview him this month.

[B]

Me too. Nicole Wallace. Go on a vacation.

[A]

I need it.

[B]

And I'm telling you, this is the year to do it.

[A]

I know.

[B]

This is the year you're never going to go anywhere.

[A]

You're freaking me out.

[B]

Look, people forget. They think of the elections every four years. But the prime. Having done the primaries, I feel like they never, they start in 27. You know, like somebody will. A Democrat will announce for priority president in 2027. In January.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so that that side will get started. Then you will have Vance Rubio machinations. Trump pretending like he's going to run again.

[A]

I think Tucker Carlson.

[B]

Tucker. Right. Like, then Trump, I just, and I, I don't know what's going to happen. I'm just like, don't you think it's going to get crazier? And when he sees the end line, I don't think he's going to see the end line and decide, you know what, I'm going to sand down my edges now.

[A]

You know, how can it get crazier? They're, like, fighting it about, like, the reflecting pool. They're building arch. Like, I don't know that it could be.

[B]

I don't wanna say what I think it could be. Cause I don't wanna speak it into existence. But I'm just saying I think this is the year, you know? So get on the calendar. Get Mike on the calendar.

[A]

All right. Look over your shoulder at the beach.

[B]

Nicole Wallace, I appreciate you so much. Thanks for all the time. You're the best. See ya on the flip.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Bye, everybody. We'll be back next week. You'll get the guests. You'll get the Bulwark people. Enjoy.

[A]

Happy, happy trip.

[B]

All right. See you. Go. I didn't see you right next to me, but I. So glad you could make it. The Borg podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.