Lis Smith: A Very Vengeful President

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Lis Smith: A Very Vengeful President

Date: May 29, 2026
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Lis Smith (Democratic strategist, author of Any Given Tuesday: A Political Love Story)

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Episode Overview

In this lively in-person episode recorded in New York City, Tim Miller welcomes Democratic strategist Lis Smith to break down the state of American politics in mid-2026. The main themes include the Trump administration's vengeful use of power, its ongoing corruption scandals, Democratic strategies for oversight and messaging, and the challenges of running diverse candidates across the changing electoral landscape. The episode alternates between sharp political analysis, stories from campaign life, policy breakdowns, cultural commentary, and a personal Parent Corner to close.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. The Trump Administration’s Vengeance and Weaknesses

• Vengeful Governance: The episode title comes from the idea of a “very vengeful president,” reflecting widespread concern among Democrats and former officials about personal retribution—such as targeting political enemies with investigations and DOJ action.
  • Lis Smith on Adam Schiff: “I don't think anyone's ever stoked to be, you know, in the crosshairs of a very vengeful president, but he's an upright guy ... he's pretty much a boy scout.” (04:29)
• Targeting Critics: The show opens with Miller's recounting of being targeted on Twitter by the Trump administration for a supposed FARA violation, sparking both personal jokes and a broader critique about Trump’s weaponization of government.
  • Tim Miller: “I am going to be insufferable about it, in part because there's no reason to be scared of these guys on this front ... They haven't really been very good at going after the foes, I don't think.” (03:38)

2. The War in Iran and Its Political Fallout

• Unpopular Conflict: The Trump administration’s war in Iran is depicted as a political liability, with gas prices soaring and no clear win in sight.
  • Lis Smith: “There really was no rationale for going in. There's no end game. And the effects of it are being felt immediately. Gas prices are so out of control.” (05:54)
  • Tim Miller: “Even if the Iranians woke up tomorrow and they're like, we're crying uncle ... Was it worth it? Was it worth pissing off our allies? Was it worth all the munitions we've lost?” (07:18)
• Election Implications: Lis emphasizes that voters who swung away from Biden for economic reasons in 2024 might feel betrayed as Trump’s actions keep prices high and security uncertain.
  • Smith: "Donald Trump very clearly gives even less of a shit about inflation than Joe Biden does." (08:44)

3. Abuse of Power & The E. Jean Carroll Case

• Justice Department as a Tool: Discussion of DOJ efforts investigating E. Jean Carroll post-judgement highlights concerns over Trump using government power to harass personal enemies, with strong condemnation from both speakers.
  • Tim Miller: “This is insane ... it’s so disgusting to think that E. Jean was victimized by Trump ... and now he becomes the president and he's trying to victimize her again.” (08:56)
  • Smith: “It makes me pissed. And no, I don't think anyone wants this. There is always that fear. If Donald Trump can do this against his enemies, Democrats could go in and do it against theirs.” (10:02)

4. Lessons for Democrats: Oversight, Messaging, and Corruption

• Preparing for Power: Lis and Tim recall Democratic success in 2006 and emphasize the need to tie together stories of corruption—mixing "bad sex stuff, pay-to-play, and self-enrichment"—to create a compelling narrative like the “culture of corruption” campaign.
  • Lis Smith: “I think we're really ripe for a moment like that. The corruption is so much worse, so much more brazen ... The billions in crypto stuff, the family deals...” (14:18)
  • Smith on Trump: “This Iran times 100 makes a lot less sense than intervening with Ukraine ... It's not like they come to a deal and gas prices immediately drop.” (07:50)
• Current Candidates/Leaders: There’s criticism of the current Senate Democratic bench for lacking charismatic, forceful communicators akin to Trey Gowdy; suggestion that new faces like Joe Neguse or Ro Khanna stand out.
  • Tim Miller: “If you said right now, who is the Democrat that is bringing voice to the corruption in the most compelling way right now?... But people don't know who [Joe Neguse] is.” (18:31)
  • Smith: “Trey Gowdy wasn't a big name until he took the Stafont. And I actually think that having someone who is a relatively fresh face ... would be most effective.” (18:38)
• Messaging Ecosystem: Democrats need to push the corruption case "every day, everywhere," including right-leaning platforms (Fox News, podcasts like Rogan), and using paid and grassroots channels.
  • Lis Smith: “It's really gotta be an all of the above strategy ... The corruption message is very critical in this election.” (19:40)

5. Dem Approaches to Media and Going on Fox

• The “Go Everywhere” Strategy: Tim credits Lis for popularizing the push for Dems to appear even on traditionally hostile outlets.
  • Lis Smith: “I think if the goal is to get the message out ... going on and yelling at them, insulting the host is less effective than trying to make the persuasive case and say, look, we can all agree corruption is bad.” (24:04)
• Media Gaps: Observations that Democrats aren’t doing enough Fox hits, and right-leaning media seems hesitant to host Dems amid Trump scandals.
  • Miller: “I think that the Democrats should do more to be trying to go into these spaces. But I think it's pretty telling that Fox is not using this moment to try to find an Alan Colmes punching bag.” (25:10)

6. Dem Candidates and the Electoral Map (2026 & Beyond)

• Diversity of Candidates: Smith argues there’s no “one way to be a Democrat” and celebrates the range of candidates running this cycle—some running populist economic messages, others more traditional or moderate campaigns.
  • Lis Smith: “We've gotta give people space to be different types of Democrats. I also wanna see it in real time, like what's working and what's not working.” (37:58)
• Specific Races:
  • James Talarico (TX): Facing GOP attacks over “wokeness,” but also moving toward the center on oil & gas, border, and teacher accountability; Smith praises his willingness to own past mistakes and adapt message.
  • Graham Platner (ME): Compared to Trump in populist appeal—Republicans’ attempts to scandalize him only strengthen his bond with supporters, especially when he’s candid about his flawed past. (40:12)
• Warnings for 2028: Both warn that incentive structures could push Dems back toward unpopular cultural or leftist language in coming cycles, especially in primaries.

7. Populist Left Models vs. Moderation

• Debate Over Strategy: Tim and Lis question the overconfidence of the Bernie-style populist left, noting it has yet to win a "red" or even tough purple state, and that most real-world voters want “stability” rather than revolution.
  • Smith: “To a lot of people, the idea of this revolution is actually pretty terrifying to them. They just want stability. They hate the chaos of the Trumps...” (46:07)
• Class Warfare Messaging: Smith is skeptical of “billionaires bad” as a sufficient message—voters want specific improvements in cost of living and health care, not just class calls.
  • Smith: “We need to make sure that it is not just this up in the clouds railing against billionaires and monopolies ... really bring it down to the very urgent existential things that people feel about costs in their lives right now.” (47:27)
• AI & New Technology: Smith highlights candidates like Mallory McMorrow and Alex Bores making AI an economic and safety issue against billionaires, tying it back to the corruption/cost-of-living frame.

8. New York Politics & Zoran Mamdani’s Mayorship

• Surprise Endorsement: Lis, a centrist and former Cuomo staffer, offers qualified praise for new NYC mayor Zoran Mamdani, especially his pragmatism on policing, housing, and collaboration with the state and federal governments.
  • Smith: “He talked about issues not in that weirdo lefty intellectual way with all those words I don't understand ... I also like just his style. I think that your style of leadership is policy itself.” (53:49)
  • On public safety: “When Democrats let our cities turn into dystopian shitholes of disorder ... it is very bad for the brand.” (54:16)

9. Humor, Culture, & Personal Stories

• Trump’s State Fair Fiasco: The panel mocks Trump’s failed “Great American State Fair” lineup, where even Milli Vanilli refused to perform—serving as an emblem of reputational toxicity in the Trump orbit. (57:08)
• Parent Corner: Tim and Lis share charming stories of their kids, both featuring mild violence and lessons about not letting oneself get pushed around—offering a light, human close to the episode. (58:44)

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Notable Quotes

Lis Smith:
“There really was no rationale for going in. There's no end game. And the effects of it are being felt immediately. Gas prices are so out of control." (05:54)

Tim Miller:
“This is insane ... it’s so disgusting to think that E. Jean was victimized by Trump ... and now he becomes the president and he's trying to victimize her again.” (08:56)

Smith:
“I think we're really ripe for a moment like that. The corruption is so much worse, so much more brazen ... The billions in crypto stuff, the family deals...” (14:18)

Smith:
"It's really gotta be an all of the above strategy ... The corruption message is very critical in this election." (19:40)

Smith:
"To a lot of people, the idea of this revolution is actually pretty terrifying. They just want stability. They hate the chaos of the Trumps..." (46:07)

Tim Miller (re: Trump’s State Fair):
"Even Milli has too much integrity." (57:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:13] - Lis Smith Intro; playful banter on the "mommy blog" studio and Smith’s family.
• [02:52] - Miller’s FARA “scandal” and the broader topic of Trump’s petty vendettas.
• [05:10] - Why Trump’s Iran war isn’t working politically—and why it may doom him in 2026.
• [08:56] - DOJ investigation into E. Jean Carroll as a cautionary tale of presidential abuse.
• [12:46] - Lessons from 2006: Democrats’ previous "corruption" campaigns and application today.
• [18:31] - Who’s the new “Trey Gowdy” for the Democrats? The need for fresh national voices.
• [22:13] - “Go everywhere” strategy—using Fox News and conservative media to reach voters.
• [29:34] - Texas: James Talarico’s tightrope walk in the general amid GOP “peak woke” attacks.
• [40:12] - The Graham Platner saga in Maine—voter attraction to authenticity over oppo dumps.
• [46:07] - Center vs. left: Whether an economic-populist or moderate path is stronger for Dems.
• [53:49] - New York politics: Zoran Mamdani’s surprising pragmatism and effective governance.
• [57:08] - Trump’s failed state fair lineup and cultural reputational collapse.
• [58:44] - Parent Corner: Teaching kids not to get pushed around (physically and metaphorically).

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Style, Tone, and Takeaways

The conversation is candid, irreverent, and self-aware, balancing policy depth with insider campaign stories and humor. Both Miller and Smith are sharply critical of Trump’s corruption and vengeance, holding a mirror to both parties’ flaws and successes. Their analysis is leavened with concrete campaign advice, warnings about coming primary excesses, and a clear-eyed assessment of where both sides' strategies are likely to succeed or fail. The episode closes with a spirit of hope, grounded in both realism and the day-to-day joys and lessons of parenting.

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This summary is designed for listeners and readers seeking a comprehensive yet approachable guide to the full episode’s content. All major arguments, notable moments, and quotes are captured with the speakers’ original tone and insight preserved.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We are live and in person in New York City. So I'm excited to have my old pal, a Democratic strategist, advisor to the bench and majority Dems, author of Any Given A Political Love Story. And we are here in kind of a mommy blogger studio. So I have a mommy. It's Liz Smith. How you doing?

[C]

I'm good, thank you. It's good to see you again.

[B]

How's your mom?

[C]

My mom is great. She's great. She's recovering from a broken pelvis, but nothing can keep her down.

[B]

Does she miss me?

[C]

Of course she misses you. I didn't tell her that I was going on your show today. This is gonna be the highlight of her week.

[B]

Okay. Maybe I should swing by. Does she need ice cream or something? Does she need a delivery?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, Maybe some pt. Are you qualified to do that?

[B]

I can't do pel. I don't think she wants me touching her pelvis.

[C]

I feel like she would be more comfortable with you touching her pelvis than most other men.

[B]

Sure. Okay. Well, we'll get back to that. We might have to have a little parent corner at the end since we, you know, since it feels like a parenting vibe for Friday, we've got some fun stuff for people. There's a little bit of concerning news in my life. Not for me. Actually, I'm not really worried about it. My husband didn't love it. Like when he saw that the White House sent out a tweet earlier this week accusing me of violating Farah, which is the. You know where you have to Register as a foreign agent. The reason that they said I violated Farah was because I, quote, tweeted a report coming out of the Farce Iranian news agency. I was just commenting on what they said. I don't take any Iranian money. Obviously, we're supported by our lovely viewers and [e-mail] Donald Trump does take money from foreign countries. Quite a few.

[C]

His family does, too.

[B]

Yeah, his family does. Yeah. Uae, Saudi, Qatar. He's getting a plane from Qatar.

[C]

He got a plane. Yep.

[B]

Seems like he might be a foreign, but I don't know. What do you think? Is this kind of good news for me? Should I be concerned? Should I be lawyering up?

[C]

I could see why your husband is unhappy about it, but I feel like you are gonna be absolutely insufferable about this. You are just gonna talk about this nonstop. Even, like last night, you texted me five times just making sure. I knew that one of the topics was gonna be you and Farrah. You're gonna be at the bar saying, hey, did you guys see the tweet? Now, Farrah. But I mean, what's incredible to me is that this is probably the first time in history that anyone associated with Bell Kristol has been accused of being soft on Iran.

[B]

An Iranian agent even. Forget soft on Iran.

[C]

What a world.

[B]

Yeah, it's a strange world. Yeah. We had Bob Kagan on earlier this week, and he was sounding like a downright leftist. So things are changing. But I am going to be insufferable about it, in part because there's no reason to be scared of these guys on this front because they've been competent in a lot of areas with their nefarious goals. Immigration, for example. They haven't really been very good at going after the foes, I don't think. The seashell crimes. I had Jim Comey on the pod a couple weeks ago. He didn't seem to be shaking in his boots about going to prison over the seashells. I don't know.

[C]

And I work with Adam Schiff, worked with him for a number of years now. And it seems like they've been trying now for over a year to get him and haven't been able to do so.

[B]

How does he feel? How does Mrs. Schiff feel? Is she nervous or are they.

[C]

I don't think anyone's ever stoked to be, you know, in the crosshairs of a. Of a very vengeful president, but he's an upright guy. He did everything by the law. He's pretty much a boy scout. So I don't think he's too concerned about things, but no one likes being in the administration's crosshairs. Except for maybe you.

[B]

I have to admit, you have me clocked. Yeah, Yeah, I enjoyed it. And I'm hoping that they attack me more. The more they attack me over their stupid Iranian policy, it feels like the better.

[C]

Yeah. More eyeballs you get, the more money you make. What are they going to do, like, kick you out of the White House briefing room? You don't need access to the White House.

[B]

And also, I mean, I think that as a broader level, I mean, you're talking to a lot of Dems. I feel like the more that they're talking about this just as a general issue, the worse it is for them. Like, it'd be one thing if they were, like, I don't know, coming at me on something from an area of strength. But the reason why a tweet that comments on how the Iranians are not really folding to Donald Trump's demands has them shook is because the Iranians don't seem to be folding to Donald Trump's demands. And this thing was supposed to be over in a couple days. It was going to be unconditional surrender. We're going to have the Iranian Delsey Rodriguez. It was going to be Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was coming back, whatever their stupid plan was, and they're kind of fucked right now. And I don't know, do you say to your Dem clients, like, press on the gas on Iran right now?

[C]

Yeah, I do. It's incredibly unpopular across the board. I mean, it is a dumb war. If you go back to 2001, 2003 with Afghanistan, Iraq, there are at least some, at least half baked excuses for going into this. There really was no rationale for going in. There's no end game. And the effects of it are being felt immediately. Gas prices are so out of control. Donald Trump ran on two big things, which is, I'm going to lower your costs and I'm going to stop getting into wars. And he is getting us into wars and as a result, raising our costs. So it's a very clear connection. This is not just some amorphous thing that's happening across the globe. Hard to follow. It is directly connected to the price that people are paying for gas at the pump.

[B]

Yeah, I don't even know what a win is. Your friend Scott Jennings posted yesterday, this looks like a huge win for President Trump. He was posting the 19th report from Axios saying that we have a deal right around the corner. They're going to be right eventually. The folks at Axios, they just, one of these times, they're going to be correct. They keep saying a deal's around the corner. In the kind the broad sweep of history, a deal is around the corner because we'll eventually have one. You would assume. But Jennings says this was a huge win. I don't even know what could be a win. I don't know even if the Iranians gave them everything, even if the Iranians woke up tomorrow and they're like, we're crying uncle, the blockade is hurting us too much. AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI, Number two, the maybe gay one is just like, Mr. Trump, whatever you want. We're opening the strait tomorrow. We'll give you the dust. Even then, it's like, was it worth it? Was it worth pissing off our allies? Was it worth all the munitions we've lost? The cost of this war? We're going to have to rebuild our military? The cost to consumers of gas? I don't even know what a win looks like.

[C]

Yeah, and that's the problem, is the cost. And thinking about all of that money that could have been spent here at home, and that was a big thing Trump talked about in 2024, is, why are we spending all this money in Ukraine when we could be spending it here at home? But he's doing that in Iran. And this Iran times 100 makes a lot less sense than intervening with Ukraine. And then the other thing that's even more troubling is when you see now that because of all the block industry of Hormuz, gas prices are not going to go down for a very, very long time. It's not like they come to a deal and gas prices immediately drop. So gas prices are going to remain high through the election. I do not see them getting a win before November. And the biggest losers of all this are going to be consumers. It's going to be the voters who went to the polls in 2024 and said, I'm not going to vote for Joe Biden because costs are too high and he doesn't give a shit about inflation. And Donald Trump very clearly gives even less of a shit about inflation than Joe Biden does.

[B]

All right? So just because I'm enjoying the administration threatening me doesn't make it good for the administration to threaten people. So I did want to mention one of the stories happened this week that I find pretty sick. Somebody else that seems like they're actually being targeted by the administration, not just by tweets. Is E. Jean Carroll. CNN reported that DOJ opened a criminal perjury investigation into her testimony during her deposition about how her lawsuit was funded. No one's confirmed that record, but there's also some other related investigations. Trump's trying to get immunity from having to pay her the 83.3 million. This is insane that he's going after her to the extent that they even are looking into it. It's so disgusting to think that E. Jean was victimized by Trump. They took it to a jury of their peers, there was a result, and now he becomes the president and he's trying to victimize her again. I don't know what's your perspective on this? Because it's just like, is this what we want the fucking DOJ doing? Does anybody want this? Does this make, does anybody feel like this is justice or makes anybody feel safer or anything? It makes me fucking pissed on your behalf.

[C]

It makes me pissed. And no, I don't think anyone wants this. I don't think anyone asks for this. And there is always that fear. If Donald Trump can do this against his enemies, Democrats could go in and do it against theirs.

[B]

Does that sound kind of good to you now? Are you thinking, are you changing your mood on whether the Democrats should do more vengeful.

[C]

I think Democrats should hold people accountable. But I'm not for just like, you know, bloodthirst vengeance, at least not, you know, politically in your personal life, all for it. But the other thing is like, doesn't the DOJ have bigger fish to fry?

[B]

Right?

[C]

Like, you know, drug trafficking, sex trafficking, all of these things. And instead of focusing on these big problems, we're focused on E. Jean Carroll, who had a legitimate claim that Trump had sexually assaulted her years ago. And I think it's frightening to people. I think it's really petty. And this is not what he was elected on, and this is not what people care about. And this is not making anyone's lives better.

[B]

Yeah. 82 year old E. Jean Carroll. It was one of my favorite episodes of the podcast ever.

[C]

I gotta listen to it.

[B]

She went through. She just was very upfront about her past sex life. And I believe that she had had sex with five or six men total in her whole life. And it was like an Oscar winner, an astronaut, an Olympian. I mean, it was the best roster I've ever heard.

[C]

It sounds a lot like mine.

[B]

It says it's so different from mine. So different from mine. Bartender. Anyway, so Eugene is wonderful and she's a spitfire, and I don't think she'll be pushed down by this. But it's sick thinking about the vengeance question. And this isn't really vengeance, but it's more like oversight. I saw you posting about this this week. I feel like one thing that I can bring, having been a Republican quite a while ago now, but it's been a minute. But the Republican oversight during the Obama and Biden years, Obama in particular was aggressive. Aggressive and like bloodthirsty and relentless. And you look at Trey Gowdy and his management of that oversight committee and some of it looked stupid and they made fun of it. They're like, you're going to have the 32nd Benghazi hearing. But it worked. It worked. We learned about Anthony Weiner's behavior because of those investigations. Everything that led to the Jim Comey letter to Clinton in the fall of 2016 came out of those investigations. What should the Dems be doing and preparing for right now? Assuming they can take over in 2027? We'll get to that next for how to effectively do oversight over this administration.

[C]

So we can't wait till 2027. Hopefully we win the house. We cannot wait till 2027 to start prosecuting this case. And where were you in 2006?

[B]

Oh, boy. I was probably smoking the bong on Panic Tour. Where was I in 2006? I was in. Jeff Lamberti's campaign in Iowa was really good. We were the Republican challenger in the country. The Republicans won zero seats that year. It's very.

[C]

That's when like Culver won.

[B]

Yep. Yeah, yeah. Culver crushed Jim Nussel in the governor's race that year. Our friend Maria Culler.

[C]

I know. I was gonna say Maria worked for him. Yeah. Shout out, Maria.

[B]

Yeah, correction. I was in the closet, actually. So that's where I was, in the closet.

[C]

Did you ask Maria out?

[B]

I did, yeah. I was in the closet. I asked Maria out. I was wearing fake glasses at the time. I was going through some stuff. I was still a Republican. I've really kind of self actualized since then. There was a period of time where I looked on that with a lot of embarrassment. But now that we sit here at this Soft Focus studio, I can say I look back on that now and think, man, maybe I needed that, that embarrassing moment with Maria Camella to fully come out the other side and blossom and be my true self.

[C]

So you went from being a closeted Republican, fake glasses wearing operative to a never Trumper to a Democrat and now to an agent of the Iranian government allegedly, falsely.

[B]

Allegedly. Wow.

[C]

That is Madonna.

[B]

Like reinvention it's been a journey. It's been a journey. Where were we? Why were we talking about 2006?

[C]

Sorry, 2006. You know, your personal story always gets me. So I was with Claire McCaskill in 2006 and her Senate race. And if you remember that year, that was when all of these GOP corruption scandals came to a head with the lobbyists and pay to play stuff with Mark Foley and the COVID up with him doing all this inappropriate stuff with underage pages. And it was a mixture of bad sex stuff, a mixture of pay to play stuff, a mixture of self enrichment. And Democrats effectively use that to say that there was an irredeemable culture of corruption in the Republican Party. We needed to drain the swamp, clean house. And we had candidates who could prosecute the case effectively. Like someone like Claire McCaskill, state auditor, who'd rooted out waste. Jim Webb in Virginia. Like this just amazing war hero. I think we're really ripe for a moment like that. The corruption is so much worse, so much more brazen. Last night I was reading through all the Trump stuff. It is crazy. Like have you ever just tried to read it out on this show? Like it would take forever. Like the billions in crypto stuff, the family deals. I mean, did you see the Dell

[B]

story that came out this week? This one is so crazy. So Trump, obviously, Michael Dell put the money into the Trump bonds or whatever it is, which is pretty annoying as it is. But like the money is going to a good thing. But like why do we have to put Trump's name and face on everything but Trump as part of that at a press conference? It's like, go buy a Dell, go buy Dell. And he starts promoting Dell from the White House. Simultaneously to that he bought 5 million in Dell stock. And this week Dell got a $9 billion Department of War contract. And so their stock obviously goes up huge. This is crazy. The amount of money that he is personally investing, in addition to all the crypto stuff, in addition to the family Stu stuff is beyond. Everybody made a big deal at the Pelosi tracker and the.

[C]

He's billions of dollars. Yeah, billions. And so the trading as you're talking about, and then you add in much like the Mark Foley thing, you have the whole Epstein file cover up. Right. And the fact that they didn't want to release it in part, cuz they wanted to protect a lot of the powerful men, not necessarily even ones who were partaking in all the disgusting, unlawful things that Epstein were doing, but who were just like sidling up to him knowing that he was engaging in this behav. And so I think it creates this perfect stew of corruption and swampiness to run against. And Democrats actually have good candidates, much like in 2006, who can do that. I think one of the things that Democrats have done well this cycle is go outside of like some of the typical career politicians and look for people with different types of profiles and you know, sort of an ideal type of person here. Again, this is someone who's been in politics more but like someone like Rob sand, right. He runs ads just saying, you know,

[B]

he's running for governor of Iowa.

[C]

Governor of Iowa. Stealing is bad. And he made fighting corruption a hallmark of his time as state auditor. I think he's got a great shot at winning that governor's race in Iowa. But Democrats need to go at the corruption issue and say, look, Donald Trump Republicans ran on making your life more affordable, lowering costs for you. Instead they are just focused on making themselves as rich as possible.

[B]

So I agree with your assessment of the campaigns, the folks that are running in campaigns and I think that the Democrats have a lot of good candidates. We're going to get a little bit more into that. I'm a little less impressed with the D.C. democrats, particularly on the Senate side. If you think about who is going to be the Trey Gowdy, shouldn't that person be the Trey Gowdy already? If you said right now, who is the Democrat that is bringing voice to the corruption in the most compelling way right now? If you said Epstein, it'd be Ro Khanna Garcia. Robert Garcia also did a really good job on Epstein. There are other issues you could think of other people.

[C]

Negoose has actually done a really good job on a lot of the corruption stuff. And again, if Dems retake the house

[B]

in 2027 from Colorado, I love Joe Negus, big Nuggets fan, but people don't know who that is. Who of the big name senators.

[C]

Trey Gowdy wasn't a big name until he took the Stafont. And I actually think that having someone who is a relatively fresh face doesn't have a lot of the wash in baggage, taking this on would be most effective. But we've gotta lay out the case now. And sometimes we think because we read all of this news, we listen to the Bulwark, we read the New York Times, we read Playbook, we do all this. I can't say I do all those every day. I'm a mom of a three year old.

[B]

I was gonna say that you're Taking some liberties with the word we. When you said we listen to the bulwark, the listeners listen to the bulwark. You listen every once in a while when I have one of your clients on.

[C]

Yes, but most people don't. And I sort of got it. I almost passed out the other day when you, quote, tweeted Glenn Greenwald. He did this, a jubilee, where he was talking to MAGA supporters and he was telling them about all the corruption in the Trump administration, and none of them knew anything about it. Knew anything about it.

[B]

Why?

[C]

Because they get news from people who are aligned with them ideologically. A lot of them aren't seeking out political news. They're not listening to the Bulwark. They're not reading the New York Times. They're not looking to nonpartisan things. And so how is it that we are able to get this message out to everyone? Because I really do believe the corruption message is very critical in this election. And it's really gotta be an all of the above strategy where talking about it every day on the campaign trail, it is part of the economic message we're doing. It's. It's in our paid advertising. And Democrats are going as many places as possible to talk about the corruption stuff is so, so corrosive. And I have never been one of those people who was overly hyperbolic about the Trump stuff. I think sometimes early on, when Democrats did it, it hurt us in the long run because they freaked out about so many small things that by the time the big things were happening, we lost credibility. But the stuff we're reading about now is crazy. It is. It's crazy. And we have to win this election. We have to prosecute this case, and we've got to put in really, really strong guard where else to make sure that this can't happen again. You know, people buying pardons. I forgot to mention that it's crazy.

[B]

It is a little bit of a problem that nobody in the Democratic Senate conference seems to be able to talk, you know, like, Chris Murphy's pretty good, but it's tough. It's tough. It was like a weakness of the Schumer recruiting. I was talking to a fellow Democratic strategist the other day who actually likes Schumer, but he's like, if you look back, it's like we're in a new era. And I don't want to just pick on random Democratic senators, but if you just think about the people that they recruited in these states in Michigan and Nebraska and Nevada and some of these states, it's like, it's not exactly people that are lighting the room on fire. It was legislators, it was people that knew how to work the system. And that's fine. But in this moment, I kind of wish there were more people who could light the room on fire.

[C]

You mean in terms of going on media or. So look, I think someone like Adam Schiff, again, someone I work for in the Senate in that format, he's a former prosecutor, he's very good at prosecuting the case. But would I put Adam Schiff on hostile media? No. I mean, because the hate is so ingrained against him that he is not gonna be a particularly credible messenger. But we need to figure that out and figure that out fast. Who is going everywhere? Ro, Khanna, you mentioned has done a good job of going to many places, but yeah, let's deputize more people.

[B]

Now Ro's been on Fox and things are different. I had the team because. Do you feel like you get credit for coining the go everywhere strategy? Is that Liz Smith, tm I think

[C]

some people have given me credit for that.

[B]

I give you credit for it. So I had an idea for a gimmick which was I was gonna put on Dems on Fox recently and we were gonna grade them like, who's doing well? We're gonna grade on the Pete scale where Pete is the best. I don't know who'd be the worst in that trajectory. But for this week, only one Democrat has been on Fox. It was Chris Coons and he got asked about Jill Biden's book. And I just, I wish Joe Biden would just go away. God love her. Just hang out in Delaware. We don't need the book. This is not a book anybody wants or needs. So it wasn't that great of a hit. You know, you weren't really on offense when you're talking about the Biden 2024 debate. And coons did the best he could. He kind of pivots back to his message points. But it's like, okay, so what is happening? There are not enough Dems trying to go on. Do you think Fox realizes things are bad or not? Having people on it feels like the effort on the go everywhere is not really as intense as I would like in this moment.

[C]

So there are two reasons these days to go on Fox. One is to have a moment, right, where you just go on and you're like, I wanna punch the host in the face. That's a very self serving thing where you will get donors out of it. The chattering class will be like, oh, look, this guy can take the fight. This guy or gal can take the fight to the Republicans. You will get plaudits online. But. But when you take that approach, you are absolutely not winning anyone at home. And I've just seen over time, people more and more doing that approach versus the persuasion approach. And in 2019, 2020 with Pete, he did lean very much into their persuasion approach. And you still see some Democrats doing that. Mark Kelly had a really good appearance a number of months ago.

[B]

I think Jason Crowe is trying to do that when he goes on. I've seen him a few times. Roe is pretty good at that. We mentioned him already.

[C]

And so I think if the goal is to get the message out to people that this administration is really corrupt and that it's wrong and that this corruption is hurting you and that you elected these people to lower your costs and they're just getting rich, I think going on and yelling at them, insulting the host is less effective than trying to make the persuasive case and say, look, we can all agree corruption is bad, that people should not be getting elected to Congress to enrich themselves. And I would try to strike more of that tone. And it doesn't just need to be Fox News. As we know Fox News, its audience is getting smaller and smaller over time. And so we've got to really hit the entire ecosystem.

[B]

But it does feel like a moment to do it right because of the corruption and because of how bad the war is going. And I don't know, I'm looking at like, if you're Will Kaine out there, are you scared of having Democrats, like, why aren't Democrats on the Will Cain show right now? I try to have Republicans on this show. None of them will come on. And I think that they realize that it's a position of weakness that they're in. And it's pretty telling that there was only one Democrat on Fox this week. And to me, I think that the Democrats should do more to be trying to go into these spaces. But I think it's pretty telling that Fox is not using this moment to try to find an Alan Colmes punching bag to knock around. I think that they realize that there are not a lot of good arguments they have for the way that Donald Trump's been governing the last couple months.

[C]

Well, what I found interesting, I think it was this week was Megyn Kelly went hard at Trump saying, I cannot believe how brazen they are in their corruption. And you've seen people like Joe Rogan call out the corruption, too. So it doesn't just need to be Fox Rogan is not a right wing outlet, but it's certainly more right coded. But he has a huge, diverse, persuadable audience. It is very tough to get booked on there as a politician. Megyn Kelly a little easier sometimes. She does a lot of this stuff in bad faith. But I would look at the broader ecosystem and not just think of the only way to reach right leaning independents and Republicans. As Fox knows.

[B]

Well, we can see the P, we can say the P word again. So I guess that'd be my message to Jesse Watters and Will Kane. Like don't be a pussy, like have them on, you know. Yeah, it's 2026. All right. Lately, if you're getting dressed for the podcast and YouTube, you want some staples, you want some basics, you want to make it easy as possible. Barack Obama famously said he tried to cut out all decision making and so, you know, he only gave himself two suit options. That's not to mix it up a little bit, but you do want to make it easy on yourself. And when you're doing that, we can turn to our friends at Quint. Their fabrics feel elevated, their fits are clean and everything just works. Quince has all the wardrobe staples for spring. Think 100% European linen shorts and shirts from 34 bucks. Lightweight, breathable and comfortable, but still look put together. They also have the 100% Pima cotton tees with a softness that has to be felt. Their pants hit that same balance. Relaxed and comfortable. Everything is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. Quince works directly with factories and cuts out the middleman. So you're giving premium materials without the markup. I've been wearing their linen shirts. I was wearing one of the Quince linen shirts on the flight to New York and I looked handsome, casual, cozy, comfy. It's nice. It's perfect for the summer. Lightweight and breathable. Go get one for yourself. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com thebullwork for free shipping on your order at 365 day return. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.com the Bulwark for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com the Bulwark let's just talk about back to the candidates and like the Dem map. And so because this is in the spirit of Fox, the no spin zone, we're going to separate out the candidates you're actually working for. Because I don't. People know you're working for Mallory, by the way. I'm partial to Mallory. In the Michigan Senate race. You have a bunch of other candidates. So I kind of want to just talk a little bit more broader about the various Dem candidates and what you're seeing out there. And one person that we can talk about because famously you're not working for him is James Tallarico.

[C]

Well, apparently no one told Jasmine Crockett

[B]

that when I interviewed Telo, we didn't do this bit on stage because it felt a little insider y. But I did ask him behind. I was like, so has Liz Smith been telling you what to do? And he's like, he said that we have a joke on the campaign internally. We can't decide what to do. We say, let's go to the big boss and we'll call Liz Smith.

[C]

And I mean, just. You can't even imagine. I remember when the video popped of her, of Jasmine, of Jasmine Crockett at some closed door fundraiser saying, I'm behind all these things, all that. I'm literally with my two and a half year old son at his swim class on a Saturday morning. Like, girl, I am not playing Rasputin in this race. I am struggling to get that swim diaper on. And you know, it's sort of like the Farah thing with you. It is. Especially when you're a parent of a two year old and sometimes you're like, God, this two year old is kicking my ass. I feel so powerless. It's sort of nice when people think of you as this like powerful puppet master.

[B]

Wasn't the case.

[C]

Sadly, in this case it wasn't true. And like, I would gladly take credit for it if it were true. James has ran a great campaign, but I think he's a great candidate. I gave him some, some early informal advice, but I have not been working on his.

[B]

What do you think now about the situation he's in the general year against Ken Paxton. Republicans going whole hog at him. I mean, low t Talarico, going back to all of his various peak woke quotes.

[C]

Talafrico.

[B]

Talafrico. He had some bad p quote quotes, we can admit. I mean, talking about his whiteness, talking about my neighbor with a uterus. He literally talked about my neighbor with a uterus. And it's like, I don't want to hear a man saying the word uterus at all. It's weird. And we can respect and love our trans neighbors while also just saying, woman, am I A referral. I think that's okay. So I don't know how worried are you about all that stuff? Do you think it lands differently in 26 than it did in 24 because of what else happening in the world? What's your assessment?

[C]

Look, a lot of Democrats said a lot of dumb shit in 2019 and 2020. And I saw it up close. You know, I was on Pete's presidential campaign. Felt like a daily struggle with some of our staff trying to force Pete to use gender neutral language when it came to abortions and things like that. And he's a guy from Indiana. He understands that this.

[B]

He had to take his pronouns out of his bio.

[C]

This is not how you're gonna convert people on a fractious issue like abortion and choice. So, look, I think we temporarily lost our minds. I think we're at risk for that to happen again. By the way. I don't think we're out of the woods. But for now, for now, I'm seeing some of this language bubbling up in some of these deep blue primaries, and I'm concerned with 2028.

[B]

I'm really concerned about 2028. I feel like we should maybe just do another episode on this. But I was talking to another Dem strategist about this, and they're like people that think that we've moved on from the crazy stuff in the 2020. It's like all of the incentives for The Dems in 2028 are going to be to go as far left as possible to get claps online and small do bingo.

[C]

And the staff that will be on these campaigns will try to push them that way or threaten to walk off, et cetera, et cetera. But one thing that James is doing that I saw work well for Zoran Mamdani in his marital races. Zoran Mamdani was confronted with old tweets where he said, we need to defund the police. The NYPD is an anti queer, anti. I don't know, like all this sort of language I don't understand or use. Right. That I've never heard normal people. People use. Like a colonizing force. Right. It's like, shit, that sounds like it's from America.

[B]

The police is anti queer liberation.

[C]

Oberlin College dorm lecturer.

[B]

I don't know who threw the first stone at Stonewall. We're right around the corner from Stonewall right now.

[C]

Yes. But Mamdani went out and said, you know what? I regret those statements. They don't reflect my views now. And guess what? I'm gonna keep Jessica Tisch as police commissioner, which I think was the best decision he made. And. And he was able to effectively neutralize it by saying I said dumb things. I don't believe them. Now, did it piss off some people in his coalition? Yeah, but they're more willing to go with him because he still was the most progressive person in that race. And by that time, no one in that mayoral primary is running on defund the police. Like, everyone sort of understood what's the case.

[B]

It's different in the city, though.

[C]

Right. So with James, he's been smart to say I said dumb things and wish I hadn't said them and moving on. And not only that, he is, I think, making a very concerted effort right now. And you and I talked about this before. Is he, like, actually a moderate or is he just aesthetically a moderate? And we're seeing a few areas where he is, like, breaking more with Democratic orthodoxy on oil and gas, saying that Democrats have been too hostile to oil and gas and that oil and gas is lifeblood for a lot of communities in Texas. That is, you know, a few years ago would have been a heretical thing to say. He slammed Biden's handling of the border, which is really smart. You know, what he did was he said. And this one was interesting to me because I haven't heard this from a lot of Democrats. His background is as a middle school teacher. And he said that he thinks that there needs to be more accountability for teachers, more accountability for bad teachers, stricter standards. And we haven't really heard that from a lot of Democrats lately. Democrats sort of went from being, like, sympathetic or supportive of education reform under Obama to just like, not talking about reform at all. And I thought that was interesting because we know that George W. Bush in Texas had been a big proponent of this. And so it sort of signals to people that he is a different type of Democrat. But he's gotta go out there. He's gotta certainly prosecute the case against Ken Paxton. Speaking of freak. Right. And there's a lot of. Of opportunities there that fit into the whole corruption frame. I mean, this is a guy who went in with, like, net worth $150,000 now multi millionaire. How do you make that much money as an attorney general?

[B]

Yeah, bribes.

[C]

And then. Which he's been indicted for Calarico had.

[B]

He stole a pen.

[C]

Yeah, he stole a pen. What the heck is that?

[B]

He stole like a Mont Blanc. I don't know. Is that what it's called? A really fancy pen? I'm not a fancy pen.

[C]

And Then there's that thing where he let off the hook. This guy who admitted to repeatedly raping a boy from the age of like 8, 9, 10.

[B]

He got like 30 days.

[C]

30 days.

[B]

If they're friends or you know, had a relationship of some kind.

[C]

Right. And so, I mean, that's like Mark Foley on steroids. It's Epstein. It fits into all of this whole class and it's disgusting.

[B]

He hasn't debated since 2014. Speaking of the P word, Paxton doesn't debate, doesn't debate. So I think a lot of opportunities for him to go on offense.

[C]

Like, look, if they're going to go this way about Talarico, let's just go there with Paxton. That guy does not have a face for tv. No, honestly, it looks like there's something wrong. He's.

[B]

He looks kind of like a drunk Humpty Dumpty.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I almost wonder if he's dealing with a medical condition. But like him calling it might be

[B]

one of those situations where like you have all this guilt on the inside and it begins eating you away at the outside. You see that sometimes.

[C]

Like the Dorian Harvey Weinstein had that. But he is a freak. He's like the definition of a freak. And one thing Democrats have against him is all the awful things Republicans have said against him. Cuz, you know, all the crazy. Those NRSC ads against him were ridiculous. Like saying rape and murder would go up under him if he's senator went after him for being all the infidelity, all the corruption in his office. And so I think there's a lot to go after Paxon on. But James has got to. It's still, you know, Trump plus what, 14. He's got to go out and, you know, galvanize the base but also make sure he loses those red areas by less.

[D]

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[B]

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[B]

What do you think about the broader. As we get into kind of these Other races, both in the House and the Senate, and red districts, or reddish soft red districts. There are a couple models out there, I guess, partners in Maine, which Convolo won, so it's not a red district. But you see people doing the populist left thing. Dan Osborne is doing that in Nebraska. Then you also see people trying more of, I guess what you call maybe more of a middle of the road type populism, localizing. Poltola in Alaska, Roy Cooper in North Carolina. How do you navigate all that? Do you feel like there's a case for both of those options? Would you prefer one? Like, what kind of advice would you give people?

[C]

I prefer the one that's gonna win in the area where people are winning. Right. I've said this forever. I wrote about this in my book. There is no one way to be a Democrat. We've gotta give people space to be different types of Democrats. I also wanna see it. I wanna see it in real time, like what's working and what's not working. And one thing that excites me about this cycle is we are truly running different types of candidates. I mean, Grand Plat couldn't get much.

[B]

What do you think about the idea that we do a candidate swap and have him run in Texas and Talarico run in Maine? I don't think that any of the woke stuff would really matter in Maine. And I think the people in Texas might like some of Graham's Reddit posts.

[C]

Yeah, I saw that. I could see it. I could see it.

[B]

He's not a usual candidate.

[C]

However, I would say that this is where I think Graham would have problems in. Texas is on issues with law enforcement and immigration enforcement. Not exactly. And Texas is a place where people want immigration enforcement. They don't want the chaotic ICE raids, but they want secure border. They want your guy.

[B]

Bobby Polito, who you consult for, was on the show. He was really good on this.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And they're supportive of law enforcement. I know Platner said negative things about that, but I think Platner's a really interesting candidate. He had all these things people thought were gonna end his campaign. This thing, this thing, it felt very much like Trump. Trump in 2016.

[B]

Watching this. I'm so happy you said that because it's hard to say this without being offensive to partner. And I don't mean. I really don't mean it this way. But it's like, how did the Republicans who spent 10 years watching the Democrats do what you just said, ineffectually throw stuff at Trump and think it was going to work when all it did was boomerang back on them because it was like, Mr. Trump said some uncouth words. That's going to really be the thing that broke them. All this stuff, stuff didn't work. It just made Trump supporters love him more. And like, this is just kind of like the inverse of that, where the Republican, like, every time I see a new oppo drop, there was some free beacon thing today that was like, who Graham Platner said on Reddit he wasn't sure about the Armenian genocide. And I'm like, oh, that'll do it. That's really gonna be the straw that breaks the camel's back. It's just a misunderstands what attracts people to the candidate.

[C]

Yeah. And they're throwing so many different things at him. Like, Susan Collins yesterday was saying, oh, he like cusses on Reddit, like, ooh, ooh, you know, Donald Trump calls people pussy from the podium. I actually think that part of Graham Potner's appeal is the fact that he led an imperfect, flawed life, struggled with so many things, and is, you know, is trying to be a better man. And I happen to be believe that people shouldn't be defined by their worst days. The worst things they've said online, the worst tattoos they've gotten.

[B]

Ask Maria Kamela out on a date when they're in the closet.

[C]

I mean, you probably don't know if

[B]

you'd be defined by that. That's not my worst day.

[C]

Yeah, that's, you know, yeah, I've done

[B]

more stuff than that. Let's not do that, though. Let's move forward. We're not going back.

[C]

And I think people sort of have responded to that. Now I understand why people have misgivings about Graham Platner, but to his credit, and I certainly don't agree with him on ideologically, on everything. I think on issues of like, immigration, maybe law enforcement, I'm probably a little bit more toward the center, but I respect that he has taken his case directly to the people in Maine. He's like going everywhere, taking all of the questions. He didn't like, just get in a bunker after all these things and hide. He ran right to him and answered it. And like, the people of Maine are going wild for him. In that primary, he was just trouncing the incumbent governor.

[B]

I saw a video the other day of one of the Republican trackers following him around being like, do you still like to mask masturbate in public restrooms, Graham? And it's like, okay, but he's out there and it's like, okay, yeah, go for that. If you're gonna get mad at a Marine for saying that, like, I don't know. Have you ever watched Jarhead? You know, you gotta catch a moment when there's a masturbation scene at Jarhead. Trigger warning. Oh, I watched it with my mother. It was traumatizing.

[C]

Yeah. Note to self, I will not be watching that with Adrian. But there's a big difference between Platner and Trump, though. Cuz Trump never went out and said, I'm sorry for these things I did. I'm sorry I did these awful things. Grand Platner saying, I was a bad person back then. I was going through a lot of troubles, but I'm a different person now. And I want to use my struggles, use my journey to help other people who have gone through similar things and go to the Senate and fight for people who feel left behind by the system. And he's tapping into the very anti status quo, anti establishment feeling that people have. He's fucking pissed off. And everyone I know in Maine, I'm talking about people who worked for Hillary Clinton. I'm not talking about like lefties, all that, they go wild for him because they've seen him up close. And the nice thing about a state like Maine is you can actually see and touch a lot of people up close. Harder to do that in Texas.

[B]

Trying to force Mills was such a mistake, was such a mistake by Schumer.

[C]

It was like looking at 2024 and saying, okay, let's double down on all the dumb shit we did there. Someone old, someone who is the definition of the establishment. I don't understand why they expected a different result.

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[B]

Let's pick on the populous lefties for one sec.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. Here's my main issue. Like, in this moment right now, I feel like in the conventional wisdom in the narrative online, everybody now says, like, what the Democrats need to do to win is populist, economic as Bernie style economics. People in the Graham Platner mold. That's how you win over swing voters. And we're gonna do that instead of moving to the middle on cultural issues or whatever, the things that people suggested in the past that you do to win over swing voters. And I'm like, I'm open to trying it. I'm actually not. It's not my cup of tea, personally, but that could be right. My issue with it is they're very dismissive of any other possible model for winning voters, and their model hasn't actually worked yet. It's true. The Kamala model didn't work. We saw that. That's true. But I don't think anybody is suggesting we rerun the Harris campaign, except maybe her.

[C]

I mean, what even was the Kamala model, though, exactly?

[B]

The funny thing about the Kamala model, which I call the Kamala conundrum, is that it's so funny. Moderates. Well, the problem was that she was too far left. She was a California progressive. And then the populist Bernie types are like, well, the problem was she did the one event with Liz Cheney, and she was too much of a corporate center, so she didn't appeal to anybody. My point is they haven't done it. The reason that there's no bench of populist lefties is because they haven't recruited successfully a candidate to go out and win a general election in a purple state or a red state. And that's not even really Maine. Maine is a light blue state. And so. So sometimes I look at the kind of discourse around that, and I feel like kind of the Bernie lefts a little bit over their skis.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, generally, the things that are loudest create the most conflict, get the most coverage. But to your point, there's not a lot of success. And like, I talked to a lot of voters, seen a lot of focus groups, and, like, overall, what people say is they don't want a revolution. They want stability. They want people who understand that they wake up in the middle of the night concerned about losing their job, like, being one health emergency away from being bankrupt. They're not necessarily bankrupt right now. But it's this gnawing economic anxiety. And to a lot of people, the idea of this revolution is actually pretty terrifying to them. They just want stability. They hate the chaos of the Trumps, but they don't want it replaced by a new sort of chaos where you're kicked off your health care and force onto a different system. And I sometimes think that, just saying, a noun, a verb, a billionaire, it's maybe great for an ideological lecture, but it doesn't really connect with the main issues that people are feeling, which is they just can't afford shit. And they want to be able to know that if they go to the doctor, their services will be covered. They won't get surprise bills when they get prescribed prescriptions, they, that they will be covered.

[B]

They can afford them.

[C]

They can afford them. That maybe they could pay for them at the same rate people pay overseas. And so we need to make sure that it is not just this up in the clouds railing against billionaires and monopolies and all this stuff that a lot of people don't understand and really bring it down to the very urgent existential things that people feel about costs in their lives right now.

[B]

Prove me wrong. It's fine, that's what works. And then that resonates. But it hasn't. And I get frustrated and I do think that people, it's funny, they see that clearly when looking at the other side. Nobody looks at the other side. It's because Trump won twice. People say, see, we need more of that. We can just let our freak flag fly. But Trump moderated on some random issues like foreign policy, which he hasn't followed through on, and health care, which he hasn't followed. He hasn't followed through on them. But in the campaign, he did moderate from the Paul Ryan position on several issues. And you see clearly, like, well, Kerry Lake didn't win, Herschel Walker didn't win. You know what I mean? Like when you look at the other side, you can see, I think, because you're not clouded by your own factual interests, you're like, well, yeah, I've had the Republicans nominated a more normal person in Georgia, Jon Ossoff might not be the hot new thing for 2028, cuz he might not be there anymore.

[C]

Yeah. And if you look at 2022, right when it was a midterm election, I mean, it was different cuz Biden was president. The Senate candidates who won it was, were both Ossoff.

[B]

And yeah, just correct me, it was Warnock that ran against Walker. It Was the same year. Cause Ossoff ran against Purdue.

[C]

Yeah, but then you had Fetterman. You had Mark Kelly. Yeah, and then the one Senate candidate who lost was Mandela Barnes. We should have won that race. And he was someone who was going more in that vein. Now, I don't think that there was a problem against rail against the billionaires, but you gotta bring it back to not just. Just billionaires bad. But like, for instance, you and I talked about this before, is we're seeing a lot of candidates right now talking about AI and the need to regulate AI and full disclosure. One of them is Mallory McMorrow, a candidate I've advised since 2022.

[B]

I'm sure we are seeing a lot of candidates. We're kind of seeing Alex borres. Mallory. Mallory McGowan.

[C]

Gravin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

As governor.

[C]

Mallory's the first statewide this cycle to really take it on, taking on both the jobs and the online safety piece. And Boris has really sort of become the poster boy for this here in New York. What they're saying is, yes, this is about AI because this could disrupt your job. It could put your kids at risk. Do all these things put your privacy at risk. The argument, too, is that these are a bunch of billionaires who are gonna get rich by displacing you, displacing your job. These are a bunch of billionaires who are gonna get rich by having your kids talk to chatbots that are, you know, encouraging them to commit suicide or sharing, like, inappropriate sexual information with them. So if you can make that connection. And also the connection that fits in with the whole Trump narrative, that there's.

[B]

They're buying off candidates, they're buying off D.C. yeah.

[C]

And there's this cabal of very rich people who are trying to write the rules for themselves and get themselves rich while everyone else is getting screwed. And so I think if you can bring it all together like that and not just make it just like class warfare, billionaire bad. And, like, this one gets under my skin. I'm sorry, I have to go there.

[B]

Get loose.

[C]

I know I'm getting loose. You got me all warmed up here. But, like, while I see these people going out there and saying, billionaire's bad, they are all lined up behind Tom Steyer in California. Explain that to me. This guy has spent half a billion dollars buying off influencers, buying off all these lefty groups whose whole rationale is billionaires bad. Getting their support. And it shows one. It shows, like, just sort of how bad of a candidate Tom Syer is that you spend half a billion dollars and you're still in the teens. I remember him on those debate stages in 2020. This is not.

[B]

This is a guy who's not a dynamic character.

[C]

Yeah, not a dynamic character, but someone who's completely flipped his positions on everything else. But then, like, he has to buy all these people to support him, and all the people he's buying off to support are the people who rail against the billionaires. So I find that all of that. It's a bit hollow. Bit hollow.

[B]

So you're part of the Katie Porter hive, then?

[C]

You know, I am. I'm a New York resident. I do some work in California. Adam Schiff. And you know Mayor Daniel Lurie, who is.

[B]

I think we love Mayor Daniel Lurie. Okay. We're not. Stop. Stop promoting all your candidates. I want to. In fact, I want to get you some.

[C]

I'm promoting for the people that are blue cities.

[B]

We love Daniel. For people who were maybe getting mad of some of your takes there on the left, you also were kind of a surprise, Zoran. Stan.

[C]

I was.

[B]

And you were on. Last time you were on. I believe it was during the campaign. And you were talking about how you would rank him ahead of Cuomo.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't have the transcript. Obviously, there's some personal baggage there. But you're also, at the time talking about how much you liked him. You liked how much he loved the city, and you liked his optimism. You've done a lot of local politics here. So now we're, what, six months in, basically five months in to the mayorship. I grade him. How's he doing?

[C]

Yeah. So, I mean, just to your point, I'd worked for Cuomo before. I wrote a book where I called out some of the bad things I saw behind the scenes with Andrew Cuomo, some of the things that I thought he was very dishonest with people about, certainly relating to his sexual harassment scandal. And then when he ran, I was one of the only Cuomo staffers who was willing to publicly call him out. Why? It's pretty obvious. He's a pretty vengeful guy. But I thought it was really important. And I saw in Zoran Mamdani someone who I didn't agree with on a lot of issues, but, you know, he did in a lot of ways. Not ideologically, but in terms of his optimism. His presentation remind me a little bit of Pete. He tangled a little optimism. I loved how much he loved New York City, and I found that he talked about issues not in that weirdo lefty intellectual way with all those words I don't understand.

[B]

It's the halal truck. It goes back to the halal truck. It's just like, man, these guys are just trying to make a living and they're, they have to fill out too many fucking forms. And that was appealing to me at a technocratic abundancy level. It's like, yeah, let the halal talk. Guys sell cheap halal to people. Stop. The city doesn't have to get involved in all this.

[C]

And I liked the free 2k for people and my biggest concern. So I ranked him in the primary. I proudly supported him, voted for him in the general. And I was a little nervous. A little nervous. But for me, my top issue is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It's public safety, public order, in part because of some personal experiences that I had. But yesterday I was reading a story. The left is very mad at Zoran Mamdani because policing has gone up. The number of summonses going out have been up. People are complaining about the increased number of police on the subways. To me, I assume to a lot of bulwark listeners, that is very welcome news. Because I really think when Democrats let our cities turn into dystopian shitholes of disorder, that it is very bad for the brand. Like, some of it's crime, but some of it is, we live in the greatest city in the world. We should not be letting people die in our streets of mental illness and drug overdoses. And so I think he's done a good job of that. The smartest decision he made was keeping Jessica Tisch as NYPD commissioner. I'm glad he's empowered her. I like the stuff he's done on housing and saying I was wrong before for being a NIMBY. I'm leaning into YIMBYism. I like the stuff he's done on early childhood education. I also like just his style. I think that your style of leadership is policy itself. And for years and years and years we had mayors and governors where everything was conflict, everything was a dick measuring contest. And he is willing to work with the Democratic governor, who is a very different type of Democrat from him, and get things done. Not only that, he's willing to work with the President to get things done for New York City. And I want that in my mayor.

[B]

So Sharia Law Smith. There you go. Dsa Liz.

[C]

Yes. So I certainly he's had some missteps here or there, but overall I feel positive. I hope he continues on this track. And I think he's defied A lot of the caricatures and worse expectations people had.

[B]

We're back in the New York groove. The Knicks are in the finals. Zohan is doing well. You can walk through the streets. I can feel the buzz in the. The streets. People are hopping. Okay, two more things. We'll let you go. One, we just had to make fun of this, and this is kind of more in your era of music, actually. So Trump announced the Great American State fair for the 250th anniversary. I hate him so much. I couldn't even go to this thing anyway, even if it was a band I liked, because I need a break. I'm going to be with my family, pool, party, barbecue. I don't need Donald Trump in my life on 4th of July this year. But anyway, he announced the lineup. It was very 80s, Martina McBride, I guess 90s. The Commodore is Bret Michaels. You're a big Bret Michaels gal. Morris Day and the Time Young mc, CNC Music Factory. The first tape I bought as a child was MC Hammer and CNC Music Factory. Vanilla Ice was coming, Milli Vanilli, Post Scandal, Flo Rida. So that was the list. There were nine people that were announced. Since then, five have dropped out. So we're left with just CNC Music Factory, Vanilla Ice, Flo Rida, and Millie Vanilli at the Great American State Fair put on by Donald Trump.

[C]

So I read that Milli Vanilli had dropped out.

[B]

Millie's out, too.

[C]

And can we wait? Can we just discuss this? Because I remember where I was.

[B]

Even Milli has too much integrity.

[C]

I remember where I was when Milli Vanilli had that moment where they. Yes. Lip syncing. And, like, where were you? Like, watching TV on your own? Yes.

[B]

I think I heard about it at my cousin Tom's house. Now that I mentioned it.

[C]

And I mean, I've still, over the years rewatched that clip. I mean, their song slept. Like, I listened to them before I knew. But, you know, you would think the most embarrassing thing would be inviting Milli Vanilli to perform at your big presidential thing. But no, we found something more embarrassing is that they're backing out because it's bad for their reputation. Yeah, they were the most, like, reviled.

[B]

Sullied reputation.

[C]

Sullied reputation. Embarrassing group of the 1980s. The guys talked about how they wanted to, like, kill themselves. They couldn't show their faces in public. And, like, the fact that this is a bridge too far for them. Wow.

[B]

Wow. Are you sad that Bret Michaels is out?

[C]

You know, I was More of like a Guns N Roses girl than a Poison. You know, I can fuck with some, like, every rose has its thorn.

[B]

Some power ballads.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Hair bands. Okay, well, since we're in the Mommy Vlogger studio, Bill Simmons had a bit where he had Parent Corner at the end of his podcast with his cousin Sal on Sunday. So I figured we'd do a little Parent Corner and we could each tell each other one story about life as a parent.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What? Do you want to go first or do you want me to?

[C]

So I have noticed. So my son turns three and three months, and he's definitely taken on a lot of gendered characteristics. Obsessed with trucks, fire trucks especially, but garbage trucks, police cars, dump trucks, excavators, you name it.

[B]

Born this way.

[C]

But another thing noticed recently is sometimes we'll be walking down the street. I don't love to use the stroller, but if he gets tired, he'll say, up. And I pick him up. And he'll look behind me and he'll be like, oh, the man's coming, the man's coming. And then like the second time I did it, he. A week later I picked him up, he said, the man's coming. I was like, okay, well, what are you gonna do about it? I'm gonna push the man and I'm gonna give him a boo boo. And, you know, I like that. My son at the age of three already understands, like, you gotta protect the women in your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's important to be a protector.

[C]

And that came out of nowhere.

[B]

Don't get pushed around by the man. By the government.

[C]

Don't get pushed around by the man.

[B]

American spirit.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So cute. He's so cute.

[C]

Oh, he's so cute. But also I like that he's so protective of his mama.

[B]

Yeah, I like that too. I also have a violent story, so that's perfect. We didn't plan this. Toulouse this week is in Nike camp, basketball camp, and. And it's a co ed camp. But at her age level, for whatever reason, she was the only girl. There was some older girls that are there, which I was happy about, so they can have girl power lunch together. But when they're playing the scrimmages, it's her against boys and she's really good. But the boys just mindset at this age back to born this way, and gendered characteristics is just a little different. They just are. At age 8, they're naturally more aggressive, like they don't want to pass to her. I've told this story before. I said My dad officially became a MeToo supporter when he came to watch her at age 5 or 6 when she was the best player on the team and none of the boys would pass to her. And all of a sudden I think he saw the scourge of sexism firsthand for the first time as a grandfather. And so I went to watch the scrimmage the first day because I was coming to New York and so I wanted to kind of show her that I was going to see her there. And I just saw that she was getting bullied a little bit. So after camp I invited the neighborhood kids over. There's a ten year old boy and a six year old boy and we played two on two and it was me and the six year old boy against Toulouse and the ten year old boy who's a big, big kid. And I just started will ferreling on them, you know, like pushing them down, dunking on, you know, doing, you know, posterizing them, swatting every shot, like really bragging. And she got really mad at me. Like it gets like screaming at me like, you're a bragger, you're a bully. Da da da da. And like the six year old is like so happy because he's on my team and like we're winning and so he starts bragging. And finally as we get closer, you know, I start kind of letting off a little bit and letting them push and they, they started pushing back, you know, the 10 year old boy started pushing me. Toulouse started getting physical, you know, and we won obviously. But I felt like it was a good parenting life lesson. Cause at the end, end I was like, that's what you do to those boys when you go back to camp out there. Like get out there.

[C]

I like it.

[B]

Get physical. Don't let those boys push you around at Nike camp. You know, girl power. You're stronger, you're better than them. Like go do it. And I don't know if it actually worked. So I'll report back the next time we're on on whether this was a useful parenting strategy. Maybe some listeners will let me know that, you know, dunking and blocking and trash talking my child is not the right parenting approach. But that's what I went with with this week.

[C]

Yeah. And like what do you think? I think.

[B]

Hey, all right, thank you, I appreciate that.

[C]

Wouldn't you rather have your kids be the pushed pushers than the ones that are getting pushed? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's a girl like out there, like little uptown boys, like you know, think that they're tough. I was like, they don't got nothing. Yeah, nothing.

[C]

Sounds like we got to connect her with Zane, you know, next time they're in the same city.

[B]

All right, cool.

[C]

Probably learned a thing or two.

[B]

I know we did her birthday up here. I don't know why I didn't see it. It was right at New Year's.

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, we were busy. Liz Smith, anything else? Anything else you wanna shill for? Now that we've made it to the very end of the podcast, any other clients you wanna pitch?

[C]

I'm just here to shill for democratic majority in 2026, but it's great to be back here with you, Tim.

[B]

Amen to that, sister. We'll see you soon. Everybody else, we'll be back here Monday for Liz Smith's favorite, Bill Kristol. We'll see y' all then. Peace. I'm back, back in the New York room. The Borg podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.