Pete Buttigieg: Time for Radical Change

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bulwark Podcast – “Pete Buttigieg: Time for Radical Change”

Date: July 14, 2026
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Pete Buttigieg (Former Secretary of Transportation, former South Bend Mayor, 2020 Iowa Democratic Caucus winner)
Location: Des Moines, Iowa, following the Iowa Democratic Party’s Liberty and Justice dinner

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Tim Miller and Pete Buttigieg, focusing on the mood and strategy of the Democratic Party in the Midwest, the intersection of political reform and kitchen table issues, immigration and recent ICE-related violence, and Buttigieg’s call for “radical change” in American political institutions. The conversation also touches on Buttigieg’s personal experiences of being targeted as a public figure and a gay parent, the balance of family and public service, and stories from the campaign trail.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Resurgence and Hope Among Iowa Democrats

• Recap of the Event:
  • Buttigieg describes the Liberty and Justice Dinner as having “great energy” and feeling like a “reunion” (00:58).
  • Miller notes a revived energy among local Democrats despite years of Republican dominance.

    “It did feel like there was a little bit of a jolt of energy among the Iowa Dems.” – Tim Miller (01:13)

• Importance of the Midwest:
  • Buttigieg emphasizes the Midwest as a proving ground for balancing policy and values, and the impact of elevating diverse voices from the region within the party (01:33).
  • Suggests successes here influence the party’s broader appeal and approach.

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2. Immigration Enforcement, ICE Violence, and Public Response

• Recent Tragedies:
  • Miller brings up a contemporaneous ICE shooting in Biddeford, Maine, echoing a similar event in Houston (03:08).
  • Buttigieg: “It’s stomach turning and upsetting... We know that this keeps happening or some version of this keeps happening.” (03:51)
• Community Pushback and Solidarity:
  • Both recall the “inspiring” pushback in Minneapolis against ICE abuses, noting it was a multi-racial, cross-community effort that did influence federal actions (06:11).

    “You can in fact get this administration to back down… That should be a lesson for all of us who are trying to keep up the energy to mobilize against this stuff.” – Pete Buttigieg (11:08)

• Role for Democrats:
  • Buttigieg calls for Democrats to take principled stands on immigration, balancing border enforcement with humane treatment and systemic reform (08:30).
  • Blames Republicans for demagoguery and obstruction of legislative solutions:

    “In order for a fence to work, there has to be a gate, and our gate is all messed up as a country.” (09:20)

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3. Political Reform: Why Radical Change Is Needed

• Don’t Ignore the System:
  • Buttigieg argues that economic and daily struggles are deeply linked to a broken political system and that Americans can care about both (15:56).

    “The problems with our economic reality are related to the problems with our political system.” – Pete Buttigieg (15:56)

• Against Complacency:
  • Cautions Democrats against seeking merely a return to pre-Trump “normalcy.”

    “Sometimes I think Democrats are giving off the impression that what we want to do is just get the world to look the way it looked, if not under Biden, then maybe under Obama, or the Clinton year or something.” (20:25)

• Democrats as Defenders of Broken Institutions:
  • Discusses the awkwardness of Democrats becoming the "institutionalist" party as the right attacks foundational bureaucracy (21:41).
• Long-Term Vision:
  • Models after right-wing institution-building (Heritage Foundation’s Project 2025), and calls for a “Project 2050” to imagine and build for the future (23:07).

    “That’s the level of ambition that the last generation or two of right-wing think tank leaders … had. And I think we have a hard time seeing over the horizon.” (23:11)

• Big Institutional Change:
  • Buttigieg supports “clean sheet” reforms and “ground up” rethinking of policy areas like housing, education, and international organizations (24:48).
  • Tells story of local transportation project achieved without federal help, highlighting bureaucratic obstacles (25:57).

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4. Pragmatism vs. Radicalism: The Limits of Big Swings

• Student Loan Policy Example:
  • Miller questions whether big swings can backfire, citing Biden’s student debt relief attempt (29:04).
  • Buttigieg: “There’s a reason that that particular policy wasn’t on my list when I was running for president… I still think the bigger problem in those years was that our party was not ready to really dig in on the bigger, deeper structural problems.” (29:30)
• What Needs Changing:
  • Buttigieg calls for constitutional reform on money in politics and Supreme Court structure, noting missed opportunities to start early on these fronts (30:25).
  • Reminds listeners that the number of Supreme Court justices or House members isn’t set in stone; suggests reexamining these arbitrary limits (32:12).

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5. Political Messaging and Voter Respect

• Outreach Across the Country:
  • Buttigieg shares stories of campaigning in deep-red areas and supports authentic, character-focused candidates (62:43).
• Talking to Trump Voters:
  • Urges Democrats to communicate with respect, not condescension:

    “He doesn’t deserve you… We have a regard for you as a voter. We don’t think any less of you as a person because you voted a different way.” (65:36)

  • Warns against “What’s the Matter with Kansas?”-style dismissiveness.
• On Culture Wars:
  • Sees “culture” issues as code for a deeper feeling that Democrats don't like or respect certain voters.
  • Recommends honest engagement and avoiding shaming rhetoric (68:34).

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6. Personal Experiences: Family, Public Service, and Threats

• CPS Incident:
  • Buttigieg recounts a recent, highly distressing incident in which Child Protective Services (CPS) was sent to his home based on a false report—likely a targeted, politically motivated “prank.”

    “What happened to our family a few weeks ago is the most fucked up thing that’s ever happened to us since I got into public life.” (45:05)

  • Describes the trauma of being temporarily separated from his children, the abuse of systems designed to protect families, and the particular fears faced by gay parents (46:45–50:33).
• Impact on Future Plans:
  • Admits the experience makes him question continued public service but also compels him to fight for a better system:

    “It actually does two kind of opposite things at the same time… makes you want to just run away from the bullshit and into the arms of your family… at the same time… do whatever you can… to make this the kind of place where stuff like that doesn’t happen.” (55:04)

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7. Parent Life and Humanizing Moments

• Stories about His Kids:
  • Shares anecdotes about his four-year-olds’ fascination with animals, Legos, and how his daughter thinks Judge Judy might run the government (57:18–59:56).
  • Touches on the innocent but exacting nature of young children (“talk about accountability... their readiness to hold you to [a promise]...”) (62:17).
• Negotiations Over T-Shirts:
  • Lighthearted discussion about choosing the right (and non-competitive) t-shirts for his twins from the iconic Ray Gun store in Des Moines (71:28).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On ICE violence and government trust:

  “We have more questions at a moment like this than we would if we could trust our federal government.” – Pete Buttigieg (04:01)

• On American institution-building:

  “Radical institutional change is literally the stuff of the founding.” – Pete Buttigieg (32:49)

• On electoral reform:

  “Honestly the changes I’m talking about are not as radical as [the founding]. I’m talking about tuning up our republic in ways that feel radical now, but at other moments in our history have been perfectly mainstream.” (33:31)

• On being targeted as a gay parent:

  “It’s the most fucked up thing that’s ever happened to us since I got into public life. And it should never happen.” – Pete Buttigieg (45:05)

• On family vs. public life:

  “One thing it does to you is it makes you want to just run away from the bullshit and into the arms of your family... the other thing it makes you want to do is whatever you can do to make this the kind of place where stuff like that doesn’t happen.” (55:04)

• On candidate messaging:

  “He doesn’t deserve you.” – Pete Buttigieg on Trump and Trump voters (65:36)

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Important Timestamps

• [00:58] Arrival in Iowa, energy at the Liberty and Justice Dinner
• [03:08] Discussion on new ICE shooting in Maine
• [06:11] Minneapolis ICE protest and community solidarity
• [15:56] Major speech themes: linking political reform with daily concerns
• [23:07] “Project 2050” and the call for long-term Democratic policy planning
• [29:30] Student debt, big swings, and what “radical change” should mean
• [30:25] Supreme Court reform and the need to start early on constitutional changes
• [32:12] Rethinking the size of Congress and the two-party system
• [45:05] The CPS incident and its impact on Buttigieg’s family
• [57:18] Family stories and explaining government to a four-year-old
• [62:43] Notable Democratic candidates Buttigieg supports in 2026 cycle
• [65:36] Talking to Trump voters with authenticity and respect

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Conclusion

This episode provides an honest, sometimes raw, look at Pete Buttigieg’s vision for Democratic renewal grounded in institutional reform and respect for normal, everyday concerns of Americans. Amid political polarization and personal challenges, Buttigieg argues for bold reimagining of American democracy—one that learns from conservative institution-building but remains rooted in fairness, transparency, and genuine outreach. He also brings a deeply human dimension to the discussion, linking policy to personal experience and family life, and reminding listeners what’s at stake—and what’s possible.

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For further details: See the episode transcript for Buttigieg’s specific endorsements (Iowa, Nebraska, Florida, Georgia, Arkansas), and his thoughts on campaign strategy, political reform, and what he wants for the future of the Democratic Party.

Transcript

[Pete Buttigieg]

Foreign.

[Tim Miller]

Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller, coming at you from my old stomping grounds in Des Moines, Iowa. On Sunday evening, I was at the Liberty and Justice dinner put on by the Iowa Democratic Party. That was conveniently for me at Prairie Meadows Casino, where I spent a lot of time on the craps table back in my heyday. So it was nice to get back into town, and I was here to have a little chat with the keynote speaker at that dinner. I'm delighted to be able to sit down with him today. You might know him as the former mayor of South Bend, Indiana, former Secretary of Transportation, Navy veteran, winner of the 2020 Democratic caucuses right here in Iowa. That's Pete Buttigieg. Hey, Pete. How's it going?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I'm good. Thanks for having me.

[Tim Miller]

How was it on Sunday night?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Great. Really good energy. Really? It felt kind of like a reunion because there are all these memories of when I was here in 2020, but also I just really feel good about our chances in Iowa.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, to me, it felt like even in the room, some of the Iowa Democrats have been depleted. You know, I come try to come back to Iowa every year. I got a lot of old friends here from my campaign's past, and, I don't know, I went to an event in 24, and, you know, it's just Republicans have controlled the state for 10 years, and, like, after a while, eventually you get beaten down. And it does. It did feel like there was a little bit of a jolt of energy among the Iowa Dems.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, I think so. And it's, you know, it's not just vibes. I mean, people are seeing it in the numbers, you're seeing it in what's possible. And as the Iowa Democrats are quick to point out, this is maybe the only place where you have a chance to get that many House seats flipped and a Senate seat and the governor's office at the same time. And I also think, I mean, this is a little provincial of me maybe, but I think this Midwest region, region is an especially important place to prove that out, because I think we can show how what we believe about policy and what we believe about just how people ought to treat each other and how people ought to act all kind of comes into alignment in the way that people in this part of the country really care about. And then in turn, the other thing that excites me is I think when we have more wins in places like this, we have more voices inside the party who are elected, who are from places like this. And it really makes a difference to our vocabulary and our body language and our ability to, to connect versus the places that are kind of already the biggest strongholds of the party.

[Tim Miller]

I was talking to a state senator from Sioux City who was there and just at the end of the conversation I looked at her and I was like, you just talk like a regular person, which is really nice. I think a lot of times the Democrats talk about talking like a regular person and then you end up actually still kind of using the types of terms that you'd use like a Grinnell symposium or in activist meetings or whatever. And it's just different.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah. And I think just having that kind of normal human style and approach and vocabulary is rewarded in some places maybe more than others. And I think it's rewarded here in the politics of a place like Iowa.

[Tim Miller]

I want to talk about your speech and the big themes of it for a lot of the show. But we do have some news today. We're taping this Monday afternoon. So there could be more that comes out by the time this publishes. But there's a man that was killed today in another ice shooting in Biddeford, Maine. He's a 26 year old from Columbia with work authorization. We don't exactly know what that was. Likely an asylum applicant. He, he was shot six times while he was driving. After they shot him, they still pulled him out of the car, dropped him to the ground and handcuffed him. It appears there was a three year old girl on the scene, maybe his daughter in bluey pajamas. Just another one of these things. We had, obviously the shooting in Houston earlier this week. So just wondering your initial reactions.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I mean, first of all, it's stomach turning and upsetting. We don't know a lot, we don't know everything, but we know that this keeps happening or some version of this keeps happening.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Pete Buttigieg]

And we know that this kind of thing doesn't have to keep happening. And another thing that's on my mind again, you know, we've, we've just learned about this. More information is probably coming in the next hours, in the next day. But you know, this administration's Homeland Security Department has already been caught in another case saying that somebody was trying to ram federal agents and, and that turning out not to be true. Right. So I think we have more questions at a moment like this than we would if we could trust our federal government. And, and then you, you think about people who are caught up in this. I mean, if these reports turn out to be true about a Three year old child on the scene, six shots,

[Tim Miller]

like what could possibly.

[Pete Buttigieg]

And you know, whatever else anybody winds up learning or saying or claiming, like, for God's sake, like, obviously she does not deserve to be mixed up in any of this. And I don't know, we'll learn more. But it's so upsetting. And again, it's happening in this context where we keep hearing word of this kind of violence that is not making anybody safer or better off. It's not making America a better place. And it doesn't have to be like this.

[Tim Miller]

You're talking about the response from the Midwest and from this part of the country. And I thought the Minneapolis response to the violence by ICE there was just maybe the most inspiring thing to me that's happened in Trump 2.0. And just seeing these people in the streets, you had kind of. J.D. vance. This whole shtick is about how a diverse America makes it harder for our cohesion. And it's like you have this diverse community in Minnesota so cohesive, everybody different race, religion, everything coming out saying, no, this is not us. And really the people of Minneapolis pushed back the ICE agents. I mean, not physically, but like with their voices, with their putting their bodies in the streets. And as a result of that, this stuff died down for a little while. And it kind of feels like with the story in Houston and with this in Maine that like the administration sort of regrouped. We have a new secretary now and they're kind of back to the same old thing.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, part of what Minnesota showed was that you can in fact get this administration to back down. Yeah, it's not easy, but it can be done. And the other thing I took away from what happened in Minnesota wasn't just how they were pushing back against the abuses, against what ICE was doing, against the administration, but the way they were very much kind of showing that they were for each other. Right. There are all these stories of neighbors helping neighbors, people taking shifts to take care of kids or get groceries to people's houses who couldn't go out. And yeah, just the sheer determination going out in like sub zero cold by the thousands. By the thousands. Right.

[Tim Miller]

Did you go there? I can't remember.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I wasn't involved in any of that. But. But talked to a lot of people who were on the ground at that time. And I did visit St. Paul while some of that was. Was brewing.

[Tim Miller]

I just felt like we also visited there when it's all brilliant. It was so fucking cold. And you know, we went out there outside of the detention center and it's like you had seniors and, you know, people at the end of their work shift, like, going out there doing these sh. And my feet were freezing. I was out there for 30 minutes.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah. But these folks are propelled. It's not just that they're northerners and they're used to it. It's clearly propelled by this sense of right and wrong, of fairness. I think for a lot of them, they were propelled by faith. And you could tell also that it cut across a lot of the old lines. I don't think all of the people marching those streets were lifelong registered Democrats. It wasn't about that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. What do you think about the response to this and what it's called now from Democratic politicians? I think the challenge is particularly acute in the case of the situation in Houston that we know more about, like Lorenzo Araujo. And it seems to me like Republicans feel like they can act with impunity when it comes to people who came here illegally, even if they've been here for 35 years. And that I think that there was a sense that this is kind of part of the risk of coming to the country illegally, this thing could happen, which is obviously insane. But I think that they felt like they could just push this under the rug and move forward because it's like it was different than the case of Preddy and Good, et cetera. Now we have the situation in Maine. Like, what's the appropriate reaction? Right. And I do feel like at the beginning of this term, a lot of Democrats felt like, immigration's a loser for us. We shouldn't focus on this. Like, what is what's called for from Democratic politicians?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Well, I think a lot of that has changed. I think events have demonstrated that Democrats can and should take a stand, and we can bring most Americans with us on this. Look, we believe that you gotta have borders. Borders have to be enforced. We have laws. Laws have to be enforced. All of that is something most of us agree on, but also most of us agree that you shouldn't be killed over an immigration violation. And most of us agree that this is not what we were told we would have going after the worst of the worst and the violent criminals first or only. I think it was really telling that when Kilmar Abrego Garcia got unlawfully deported or unlawfully shipped out, a lot of people in the kind of insider political world were saying, like, don't talk about that. Don't touch that. Don't go there.

[Tim Miller]

He seems like a bad guy or whatever.

[Pete Buttigieg]

And actually, that was one example where The American public said, whoa, this is like, this is all wrong. Right. And I think you actually feel that a lot here in the Midwest too, where people know that this stuff is complicated because their, their neighborhood or their community or the farms near where they live cannot function without a lot of these people who do not have status, but who are also here and are otherwise law abiding, tax paying, often very important members of the community. And I think, I hope that this also builds more pressure to actually do something with the system. Because so many of the Republicans, of course, who are capitalizing politically on all of the anger and confusion over this are the ones who've done everything they can for years, sometimes for decades, to stop us from actually fixing the system. And, you know, in order for a fence to work, there has to be a gate, and our gate is all messed up as a country. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

The Abreu Garcia example was such a good one to me because of also an early example of seeing that the administration could be stopped even again. It was, I think, Chris Van Hollen shout out like, there were some Democrats who were speaking out of this. But that was at a time where everybody's still very cautious about this. And it's like, this is insane. Like, we have a, like Marco Rubio. We learned this from the Haverman and Swan book I had Maggie on last week. Marco Rubio, who's supposed to be the normal responsible adult in the administration, was like the point man for cutting this deal with Bukele, where he's like, you're going to have a gulag essentially in El Salvador, where we're going to send these people. We were sending innocent people there. And it was absolutely, I think, the most outrageous thing the administration has done. And right now there's nobody there. It doesn't feel like a huge win. To have nobody in the Gulag is important.

[Pete Buttigieg]

And it's especially important to understand you don't have to wait till the next presidential election. You don't even have to wait till the upcoming midterm election to change things that are going on. This administration that swears up and down that it will never back down, they actually back down quite often when there is enough pressure, whether it is righteous pressure over the mistreatment and the abuses going on with immigration enforcement, or whether it's something like the tariffs, I mean, it can happen. And that should be a lesson for all of us who are trying to keep up the energy to mobilize against this stuff.

[Tim Miller]

How do you think Marco's been doing?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I. If he hadn't asked for it, I would feel sorry for him. And I, you know, to. To me, it became hard to look at him the same way ever. I know this is not in the top 10 of what most people talk about, but when Marco Rubio lied to Congress about whether the aid cuts had killed children, when he stood there with a straight face and said, no children died over this, when we already knew the names of some of the children who had been killed by this, right then you could just tell that this guy's just morally, and I hope politically never going to recover from selling his soul.

[Tim Miller]

Your lips to God's ears, Pete. This episode is brought to you by the New York Times. There's a bunch of stories that caught my eye this week in the New York Times. Obviously the story that the administration is investigating them for. You know, we discussed that last week with you guys. They're reporting on how the hand me down cuttery plane didn't have the defenses necessary to get our president out of Turkey. As a result of that reporting, New York Times is now being investigated by some guy who wants to be Trump's new dni. It is totally shameful. And thank goodness for the work they're doing. They had another story that I wanted to get to because there's so much going on, but we'll just do it right now. It was by Jane Bradley, Michael Schwartz, and Adam Goldman. Piece is titled How Putin Turned Japan into a Den of Spies. It's like one of these stories, like, how is this real? They found that the Russian spies were expelled from Western countries after the invasion of Ukraine, ended up in Japan, where they're part of a secret military intelligence unit called the 20th Directorate to help them, you know, figure out kind of Western military technology and strategies so that they can improve their capabilities in the war in Ukraine. The spies pose as diplomats or business people. It's like the Americans, I guess. I guess it's the Japanese. Great TV show. And thanks to this effort, unintentionally, this isn't really Japan's fault. Their technology is propping up the Russian military. Crazy story. You've got to go read it. And this is the thing about podcasting. We've got some great reporters here at the Bulwark. I appreciate doing on the ground work. You know, I'm here kind of half reporting in Iowa, so, you know, I do some. I do some baby reporting, but you need people out there in Japan. We're not uncovering in Japan. Okay. So you need people doing real reporting so that I can chat about it. So we can analyze it and, and give perspective and contextualize it so that you guys know what's going on in the world. And so I appreciate all the reporters out there doing that. It takes a lot of time and effort to put together stories like this. This story about the 20th directorate is just one example. There's so many others out there. Support your local journalists here at the Bulwark, at the New York Times and elsewhere, wherever you seek it out, nationally, locally, support fact based reporting. Let's talk about the speech and the themes. I summed it up this way. You were basically trying to talk about how to balance the challenges with the broken political system against the questions of people's everyday concerns. And this is the big challenge for Democrats and Democratic circles. How do we deal with this? And I'm going to read just a little bit from part of the speech that I liked. As a former Pocket Constitution college Republican, I liked this part. Wars have literally been fought over our system, starting with the first one, the one that broke out 250 years ago this month, the one that gave this great nation its being founders risked their lives for a better political system. So don't tell me that it can't stir people's hearts and don't tell me that it's worth fighting for. That it's not worth fighting for. Excuse me. Don't tell me that it can't stir people's hearts was the line that made me perk up my ears saying they're listening. Because that did feel like kind of a subtle message to the chattering class. Right. That this issue, that because Biden Harris lost and because the whatever pro democracy movement was not successful in keeping Trump out, there's some people who are like we, we shouldn't talk about. Those are esoteric concerns we shouldn't talk about anymore. Make the opposite case.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, exactly. What I'm trying to make the case for is that the things that are happening in our economy, the price of gas and diesel, what's going on with mortgages and interest rates, cannot be separated from what's broken in our political system. The problems with our economic reality are related to the problems with our political system. And so it is a response to this conventional wisdom that you get from a lot of the political strategists who say don't go there on the need for political reform because that comes at you. Don't never talk about that when you could be talking about the price of eggs. Nobody cares about democracy when they're worried about putting food on the table. Now, I get that putting food on the table is the most immediate concern, but I don't think that means we leave behind the other stuff. I think that from the moment of our founding, Americans have understood that so much depends on the system. There was a time, you know, we're all so jaded about the system, right.

[Tim Miller]

If.

[Pete Buttigieg]

If I say the system is broken, that would be the most, like, cliche, unremarkable, forgettable thing. I said all, yeah, no shit, right? But think about how crazy it is that we act like that's not a terrifying, alarming thing to say. The system is broken. And politicians have been saying that for years. And it's true. That's a really big deal. The system, in many ways, is us. The system is America's greatest contribution. The idea of a different political system where the people are in charge, it's what the revolution was fought over. It's also a big part of what the Cold War was fought over. So, yeah, I just refuse to.

[Tim Miller]

Us being able to project out that our system was better than theirs was a key part of winning the Cold War.

[Pete Buttigieg]

And again importantly, not just that it was better because it was, like, academically more elegant in its representation. It was better because, in fact, if you were just trying to get a ham sandwich, you were better off doing that in our political and economic system than in theirs. In other words, there continued to be a direct line.

[Tim Miller]

The tankies are going to be mad at you for that. The tankies. There's a little Stalinist movement coming up on the online left. Great. I'm just saying you're going to get in trouble on Tanki Twitter for saying that it was better. They had good ham sandwiches. I heard behind the iron.

[Pete Buttigieg]

You know, maybe there were some decent ham sandwiches out there, but it was not a place I'd want to go to the grocery. Right. And now I'm having all these images of Tucker in the Russian groceries. These things are all connected, and we can't pretend otherwise. And I think it's also important because the way that the people in charge now are breaking our institutions and our norms and our political system and the way, in my opinion, they're screwing up everyday life and the economy and healthcare and. And prices and tariffs and so on, they're. They're breaking everything at the same time. Yeah. So we ought to be ready to be fixing a lot of things at the same time. And I think if we're not ready to present that governing vision now, then it becomes a lot harder for us to explain what we're about. I think it's actually very possible that. That the Democratic Party does well this November and then lapses into thinking that its job is just to put everything back the way it was.

[Tim Miller]

This is what happened in 2022. Yeah, we re litigated Biden the last time you were on the pods. We don't have to do that. But I do think that a big part of Biden signed to run again and was like this idea that in 2022 that the Democrats, you know, there was supposed to be this red wave. There wasn't. Democrats outperformed and it created, I do think, a complacency.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

You could see that Again.

[Pete Buttigieg]

You know, again, being here in Iowa has given me flashbacks to 2019, 2020. The whole idea of me running, it wasn't just generational change. It was very much a we can't return to normal kind of message. Yeah. It was the idea that there's no going back to the old ways, partly because that was what my whole formative experience in South Bend, Indiana was, that we couldn't. You know, we're the city that that is best known, of course, because Notre Dame is there. But we were the company town for Studebaker and lost our biggest employer, this huge auto company, 20 years before I was even born. My whole youth and upbringing, we were still licking our wounds from that. And when I become mayor, basically 50 years after Studebaker closes and there's still crumbling factories all over the city, and we're still figuring out what we're going to be next, and there's still a temptation to say, well, we're going to go back and get that somehow. And so part of the whole reason I got into elected office was saying we're not going to make South Bend great again. We're doing something new and different. Only to worry that my party has taken the same turn of actually, in a weird way, we'd never say it, but in a weird way, sometimes I think Democrats are giving out off the impression that what we want to do is just get the world to look the way it looked, if not under Biden, then maybe under Obama, that we're going to go back or the Clinton year or something. There's some date that we have. It's not the 50s where the Republicans want to take us, but it's in the past. And that just can't be right.

[Tim Miller]

Or if not that, you talked about this a little bit in the speech, too, that you found yourself in the position of being the defenders of these institutions that are broken. Right. You know, and even, you know, while paying lip service, saying they should be changed or whatever, like, just because Donald Trump is bringing this flamethrower to everything, Democrats find themselves being like, well, you know, defending kind of the military industrial complex because Trump was saying that it was bad, or defending the FBI or, you know, like, all these things that, you know, in the past had not been the provenance of the left. Right. And how do you even get out of that bind? I think it's easier to identify it than to figure out how to get out of it. When you're kind of. You're always going to be the institutionalist party kind of if you're running against the clowns with flying flowers.

[Pete Buttigieg]

So a couple things. I think this is exactly right. We hated seeing them burn down or break down all these things. So of course, we instinctively defended them. And on one level, I get that it's criminally wrong to just burn down the USAID or the Department of Education or you name it, Right. But that doesn't mean everything was going along just fine. So how do we get through this? A couple things. One, I think we need to be going back to first principles. And we think we're like the intellectual party, like the thoughtful party, but I think in many ways, we've actually lost a step compared to the right. I mean, I imagine you may have come up in this world, right, where if you were like, a young Republican staffer of our generation, like you, by the time you show up for your first campaign or Capitol Hill internship, like, you have, like, a copy of Hayek or Friedman issued by the Heritage foundation under your arm, Right. Like you're thinking about, like, the big things, and you would think the left would have that, too. But actually, like, because the academic left got less and less connected to kind of politics, and in some ways, I think, to reality, we actually have a bit of a weakness on our side. So I think we need to be investing more in the same way that the right did for decades in thinking about, okay, what are our basic commitments in liberalism and what do they mean for a 2020s answer to what a Department of Education should look like or what housing policy ought to be like or how we do international development. I think that's a really important piece.

[Tim Miller]

A Project 2029, if you will.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Well, but more like a Project 2050, right? This is what I'm getting at. I know there's a lot of kind of attempts at a project 2029. Some of them are doing really good work. But you Know, the thing that became Project 2025 started in the Heritage foundation in, I believe, 1980. Like, that's when they started this iterative process that they updated every few years that became Project 2025, which means if we wanted to do a Project 2050 and we started today, we'd already be like 20 years behind compared to that. Right. So like, of course we need answers for kind of immediate moves. And what I admire about the Project 29 stuff is it's looking at kind of tools and laws and departments things exist right now and how you could run with them and make change right away. That's great. But who's thinking about 2050 and kind of solving back from that to what we ought to be doing in 2026 if we want to get to where we ought to be in 2050? I think that's the level of ambition that the last generation or two of right wing think tank leaders and the smarter politicians on the right had. And I think we've been punched in the face so much on the left and among Democrats that we have a hard time kind of seeing over the horizon into that. The other thing I would say, I mean, some of that sounds like very kind of like big picture and cosmic

[Tim Miller]

and academic, but it also sounds a little institutional. It's still kind of like a institutional answer. It's not, the answer is not like, oh, we're going to come in and say, like, look at these mistakes in Iran. Maybe we should get rid of bases in the region. Maybe we should get out of the region altogether. Or look at how Cash has screwed up the FBI. Maybe we need to rip the FBI root and branch and start it from scratch. I, you know, I don't know. I'm just spitballing.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I think we should have, we should be ready to, to do that kind of clean sheet thinking, especially because right now we have clean sheets in a lot of places because they just burned everything down. I hate how we got the clean sheet, but that's where we're at. So I think that is the level of ambition we ought to have, but the other way to think about it is ground up. So, for example, I've been talking to more and more mayors who are very frustrated with dealing with HUD as we know it. And HUD actually has not been destroyed in the same way that the Department of Education or USAID have. But, you know, obviously not being led in the best way right now. But my point is, I don't think anybody would say the way it looked five years or 10 years or 20 years ago was ideal, certainly from the perspective of a mayor trying to build housing or get housing to be more affordable. So I've been talking to mayors saying, okay, what if you really got to start over? Like, what would be different? What would give you the flexibility you need to actually build something? Because I talked to some mayors who say they're better off finding a different source of money altogether than trying to use federal money to solve a problem. Actually experience a version of this in transportation. Like the, the, the signature transportation policy that I had as mayor, the one that got me recognition from the US Department of Transportation. I felt so proud. They invited me to.

[Tim Miller]

Did you get a certificate?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, I got plaque.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, wow.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah. From the Secretary of Transportation. And I was really proud of that.

[Tim Miller]

Norman Mineta.

[Pete Buttigieg]

No, no, it was Anthony Fox. And it was, it was, it was a big deal for us, but we actually did that project without federal funding, partly because it would have been too hard to get. And to use the federal funding, that was the kind of thing I tried to work on and change when I was in Washington. So what I'm saying is kind of from the top down in terms of getting back in touch with our first principles and big ideas, and from the bottom up in terms of looking at, okay, what actually works, we should be ready to have everything look different, including things that are. Because the reality is so different, including on things that we cherish. We care a lot about the UN and in many ways, even though it's easy to take a shot at the UN rhetorically, politically, and there's lots of justification for some of that. But if you talk about the mission of preventing another world war, as of today, done pretty well at that. But more broadly, the way that place works, the bureaucracy of it, the setup of it, the things that don't have any real effectual impact there probably reflect the fact that that was set up in such a different time. Like the Security Council was set up at a time when nine out of 10 people living in China were impoverished rural peasants. And now I think it's probably safe to say that a person who lives in a city, like a middle class city dweller in China, on average, may live a more technologically advanced life than a middle class city dweller in the U.S. i'd rather be in the U.S.

[Tim Miller]

yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Pete Buttigieg]

But I'm just talking about one example. AI obviously brings a whole other set of examples of all these realities that have changed. The institutions haven't. I think rather than just fine tuning and tinkering it's time to start over. And in many cases, we have to.

[Tim Miller]

I have two wolves inside of me on this. There's the political wolf that is like, I want you to go further because I want the Democrats to the spirit of, you know, the being the ones that went after the system, that went after the man. Right. Like, I remember I went to a TPSA conference before Charlie died, and one of the things that struck me about it was one of the things I always did is I went up to the young guys, and I was just always like, why are you here? Like, what is it that animates you about this? And how many of them were basically just like, f the man? I'm tired of the man. I don't want to go to stupid wars. I'm screwed. And it's like, that's so weird that that's the conservative. That that is the feeling. And so part of me, like, want the Democrats to capture that sentiment more. Then there's the small c conservative part of me. Oakshot that's like, okay, I read you a notice the other day. You did an interview where you were talking about how you were radicalized inside the Biden administration or something, but by the fact that some of these big changes didn't get done. But I don't know. I look at the Biden administration, I'm like, well, there was one issue in which y' all went for, like, big change outside of the norms in the system. That was student loan reform. And that was a disaster, Political disaster. It ends up getting overruled by the conservative Supreme Court. People that didn't go to college are kind of bitter. They're like, I'm pissed that, why didn't I get a bailout? People that thought they were going to get a bailout and then didn't get a bailout were mad. And so you guys tried to go outside the system and break the system, and you ended up stepping on a rake. And so part of me thinks about that. It's like, ugh. It sounds nice to say we want big reform, but the best example of that from the Biden administration was a total failure. Failure.

[Pete Buttigieg]

So there's a reason that that particular policy wasn't on my list when I was running for president. I am not here to say that the administration was wrong to take big swings. Obviously, I was in the middle of the big swing. We took on infrastructure. I'm proud of it. There's a lot of things also that I learned about what makes it harder to do more in the system that we have, but also good policies that were big swings, like the policy around the child tax credit that cut child poverty in half in this country. I don't think the problem was that there were too many big swings. We could argue that some of them were right, some of them wrong. But I still think the bigger problem in those years was that our party was not ready to really dig in on the bigger, deeper structural problems that we have. And I get it. If you finally manage to pull off a win in this structure, are you really going to immediately turn around and try to take down the structure that you want? Well, the people in charge now are.

[Tim Miller]

So what are some examples of that?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Well, I would start, first of all, I think we've lost 10 good years on money in politics. I think if we got to work on constitutional change around Citizens United, precisely because that kind of thing takes 20 or 30 years to do. If we'd done it, if we'd started 10 years ago, we'd be halfway there. If you believe it takes 20 years and we just don't have that much work to show for it, I think that the commitments on Supreme Court reform could have been a lot more ambitious. Again, I'm having flashbacks to people looking at me really funny here in Iowa in 2019 when I'm saying, I don't think we have the right number of justices on the Supreme Court. I don't think we have the right way of choosing justices on the Supreme Court. And now this.

[Tim Miller]

I'm give you credit on this one. I looked at you funny on that one. The very first time. You would not remember this very first time we met, my friend Liz Smith was gathering a little round table for you. I was living in Oakland at the time, and it was in some conference room in San Francisco. You're the mayor of South Bend, and I'm sitting in there with like 20 dudes in lanyards. And you were doing this like, we need a full Supreme Court reform. We need 13 Supreme Court. We need rotating justices. And I'm in the back going, I don't know what the hell it's happening. Who is this mayor that wants to be president, thinks we should have 13 Supreme Court justices. But that was OG and you hadn't even announced yet. That was where you were from the start.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Oh, I'm surprised you came to that.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah, well, Liz, it was a favor. It was a favor. Let's be honest.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Well, yeah, no, that's the thing. And now I think we see why that, you know, most Democrats, if not yet most Americans are there. I think many, most Americans do believe we need some kind of reform, like at least something like an ethics code or term limits. I think we go bigger, right? I think there's a whole set of things like that. I think the way that we elect members of the House, which by the way is not dictated in the Constitution.

[Tim Miller]

Uncap the House. Are you going to go uncap the House?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Well, definitely the size of the House is a weird thing. And look, having dealt with Congress, I understand and to some extent share the instinct that says like, would we really ever want like more congressmen than we've

[Tim Miller]

already got 300 more?

[Pete Buttigieg]

You know, that's a good example of something that we've lived with for 100 years. So we just assume it's in the Constitution. Just like the number nine Supreme Court justices. Nowhere in the Constitution. Right. The number 435 House members. If that feels random, it's because it is like we just updated it every few years and then we stopped because nobody could agree on how to do it the last time we tried, which I think was in like the twenties

[Tim Miller]

or something, something like that.

[Pete Buttigieg]

And it turns out that that is one thing that has made it easier to gerrymander and that is one thing that has contributed to the kind of lock of the two party system that we have right now. Maybe not the only or the most important thing, but my point is we need to be asking bigger and deeper questions than these kind of fine tuning things. So I think it's not just acceptable, but correct if you think of yourself as moderate ideologically to also be interested in radical change institutionally. Because radical institutional change is literally the stuff of the founding. It's what, 250 years ago this month we did that made America America. And honestly the changes I'm talking about are not as radical as that. I'm talking about overthrowing, know, thousands of years of monarchy being the way you do things and replacing it with the untested Republic. I'm saying we've got to tune up our republic in ways that feel radical now, but at other moments in our history have been perfectly mainstream. You know, I also feel this way about the popular vote, which I still think has to happen sooner or later. I think if we did, it would be good for every community. Actually it would be good for Brooklyn. If Republican candidates had to turn out the 30 or 40% of votes that they could get out of Brooklyn. It would be good for 18.

[Tim Miller]

Sure.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Okay. You'd still have to turn them out because there's so many of them. It would be good for Utah if Democrats had to show up in Utah and get the votes that they could out of Utah that would make us all better. And of course, I think it'd just generally be a good thing if we had the basic principle that if you get the most votes, you got to win.

[Tim Miller]

You haven't been to Greenpoint lately. It's not 30%. Utah brings up an interesting comment I saw this week from Mitt Romney. I don't know if you saw this. He's being interviewed by McKay, Coppins and Mitt. I was actually going against him in the primary, I believe. Is that memory correct? I don't know. Time is starting to get long. But I was here in Iowa at the state fair where he was on the soapbox when he yelled at the guy. Corporations are people, my friend. I can remember that vividly. And you made a reference to that last night in the speech, talking about how that's part of the constitutional amendment. Corporations aren't people. I was interested in this interview that Mick gave. He was talking about the malign influence of Elon Musk's money on politics. And he basically was saying we need to do. We have not been in this situation before. Regardless of what your position is in the past on politics, we've not been in a situation where you have a trillionaire spending half a billion on a single race and then being able to get get influence in the White House and then being able to oversee how their company is regulated. That is not something that we've dealt with. Maybe we have back in Gilded age times. Right was the last time. Maybe even maybe not. And so I thought that was intriguing that the same week that I saw Mitt making that criticism, you were referencing his remarks. And to me, I think that says a lot about how that is potentially an issue that there could be broad based support for at this point.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I think among the American people there is. I mean, the American people don't need to be sold, hold on reforms like overthrowing Citizens United and doing it with a constitutional amendment if that's what it takes. I was just in Montana and there's an initiative there, it's a ballot initiative to basically redefine corporations to make clear that they don't get to spend on campaigns. So it's different than trying to regulate campaigns. It regulates corporations, which only exist in terms of the powers that estate law gives them. I'm not a legal scholar, but it's, as I understand it, a really smart way to try to do A bank shot got around Citizens United. So it's called the Montana Plan. And what I noticed when I was there was that it's a very bipartisan effort, and Montana is actually a great example. Talking about the extreme power you just mentioned, where it really was like that 100 years ago in the days of the copper kings. You had, I think, at one point, the richest man in the country, the Elon of his day, if you will. There was this guy, Bill Clark. He's a Montana copper magnate, almost literally bought and sold the legislature of Montana, Controlled the newspapers, too, him and the other copper kings. And it reached a point where the corruption was so extreme, so it just stank so much that Montana kind of overthrew it. They passed this law, the Corrupt Practices Act, I think, of 1912. It stood as kind of a model of campaign finance legislation passed in 1912, and it lasted until it met the John Roberts Supreme Court and Citizens United. But anyway, I mentioned all this to say that's obviously not democratic territory in Montana, but I think there's a good chance that this thing will pass, and there certainly was a lot of support for it on the ground. So I think this can be a unifying issue. There shouldn't be anything partisan about political reform, at least some of these basic reforms. I think most of us think we

[Tim Miller]

ought to do practical concerns. You kind of alluded to this, which is the current Supreme Court. What other stuff can get past? Seems like you're obviously already thinking about that. I mean, by mentioning that congressional House reform, number of House members, number of Supreme Court members. D.C. is a state that wouldn't have to get through the Supreme Court. Would you be for that?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, of course. What sense does it make that you could have two people who are both bartenders or soldiers or whatever, who lived 100 yards apart from each other, but one of them's on the DC Side of that neighborhood, and the other one's on the Maryland or Virginia side, and one of them gets to have two senators in a member of Congress, and the other one doesn't makes no sense. It's just, at a very fundamental level, unfair. So, again, it's not just the wrong number of justices on the Supreme Court. We probably got the wrong number of House members in the House, and we got the wrong number of states in the Union.

[Tim Miller]

Some of this other stuff, though, is going to be tough to get to the Supreme Court.

[Pete Buttigieg]

All this stuff is going to be tough. That's why we need to work really hard on it. Right? I mean, I'm sure 50 years ago, when the right was initiating the project to undo Roe v. Wade, let alone some of the other stuff around the unitary executive, whenever that came up, that stuff wasn't just on the back foot. Some of that stuff would have been considered laughable. When they started that and they were

[Tim Miller]

willing to take, I mean, the doctrine that we can start a war without the Senate, but the Senate does need to approve a treaty to end a war with the current RIP Lindsey Graham. That was the Lindsey Graham doctrine stuff

[Pete Buttigieg]

would have got you laughed, out of the room then, is reality now. And we should have that same. If we're confident that we're right, we should have that same confidence.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, so here's the political pushback you get. Let's say we live in the Good place and it's 2029 and there's a regular Democrat, that's President, whatever that means to you. And The Democrats have 50 House or Senate members, so you can squeak stuff through if you want to. And they control the House. There's still going to be a lot of pressure to have the priority be Medicare for all that want it, not reforming the number of House members.

[Pete Buttigieg]

If they can break everything at once, we can build a lot of things at once. This idea, especially after what we just witnessed, this just onslaught, this shock and awe of every part, not just within government and policy, but of society, of everything from universities to law firms to late night comedians having to deal with the kind of unrelenting force of the White House. If they can do that, then surely we can handle healthcare and House reform in the same session.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe. I don't know. Last time you guys tried to put up HR1 and that's languished for the whole four years, which is terrible because

[Pete Buttigieg]

we'd be a lot better off if it passed. Right? So, yeah, I mean, again, hard things are hard, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I'm not saying any of this stuff is easy. I'm not even saying that the next Congress or the next president can get half this stuff done.

[Tim Miller]

Done.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I'm saying that we've got to get it done in our time and it only gets done if we get to work on it sooner, like yesterday.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. There's another thing that you might have to do in that situation, which is the accountability side of things. Last time you were on, you gave a surprisingly interesting answer from a politician. Usually I have like, politicians on the podcast less because you guys are a little less interesting oftentimes for just bullshitting. But I gave you the time machine question, said if you go back, what Would you have done differently? Five years. And the obvious answer that a lot of people give is Merrick Garland. Maybe the Biden administration should have put in somebody else at DOJ who is more aggressive at investigating Trump. You talked about COVID mistakes. People can go listen to that. I agreed with that. But let's do the project forward now within the context of the Garland. Right. How do you think about that? In 2029, it seems like there's some crimes happening. I mean, president's families getting unbelievably rich. Corey Lewandowski, there's some reports that some insider deals at DHS or murdering people in the streets. We don't even know who the shooter was in one of these killings. I mean, it seems like there's a lot of potential accountability. How do you think about that?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I think there has to be accountability. And I don't buy into this idea that we have to just kind of paper over and pretend that that didn't happen. Especially because this is not about going after fellow Americans who disagreed with us politically. This is about making sure that corruption doesn't go unchecked. And it should be done in a way that is raising the bar, whether we're talking about Republicans or Democrats or anybody else in power abusing their power. I believe much more of that's happening among Republicans right now than not. But it's not about Republicans and Democrats. Right. And I actually think we only get to a place where things get better in this country when we've established that the kind of self dealing, the kind of corruption, the kind of, I'm pretty confident, illegal behavior. But that has to be shown right in court, that there's some, some accountability for that and if we get it right, kind of a permission structure for people who are part of it to renounce it as well. I actually think that's really important. Nobody can make somebody do that. But I, I know you and I both know there are a lot of people who are part of this who know in their hearts that they're part of something that is right, wrong. And if any one of us is wrong about something, politically or ideologically, that's whatever. I mean, we're right, we're wrong. That is what it is. But if people are part of something that's legally wrong or wrong by the lights of just basic morality in this whole country, never mind the politics of it, that's to be a way to talk about that. And over time that's to be a way to talk about that openly so that we get to a place when I'm thinking about 2050, where there are certain just basic boundaries and principles that people who voted either way last time around agree on. By then, the people who are against each other on all kinds of things still agree on this as the foundation.

[Tim Miller]

What about the ballroom? Do we take out a sledgehammer to that? Do you start tearing that back down?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I definitely think there's some weird gold filigree that's got to come off a lot of federal buildings and some pictures of the Dear Leader that have to go. But I don't know. I. To me, the thing about the ballroom war is just what it symbolizes, right? This idea that you tore something down and are raising all this money and spending all this time and energy as if the big problem that Americans have right now is we lack a nicer ballroom for fancy parties at the White House. As if any of the people who voted for this guy were going to the polls saying, the reason I want this guy is I know he builds a damn good ballroom. And I want to send that to Washington to right.

[Tim Miller]

One other quote in your speech last night, which seemed to be a reference to what happened to you recently, was this state and federal government that stand up for people's rights listed out a bunch of rights, and then it ended with this. The right to be who you are and love who you love and raise your family in peace. It seems like that was a reference to the fact that CPS came to your house and prevented you from raising your family in peace.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I mean, it wasn't only about that, but that's obviously something that's been on my mind. What happened to our family a few weeks ago is the most fucked up thing that's ever happened to us since I got into public life. And it should never happen. So I don't know how much more I can say about it than I've said. I will say this. We made this decision to speak out almost right away day. And I'm glad that we did. And when we did, we heard so much more than I expected from so many people. Not just like people who are aligned with me politically or my friends, but like, you know, some people who spoke out who are not our friends politically, people I've campaigned against. So to me, that reinforces the idea that even in this moment, we do, in fact, share some. Some boundaries. Some. Most of us, almost all of us, at least some basic sense of what is and is not okay and what should be and should not be part of the cost of being in public life. And I was encouraged by that.

[Tim Miller]

That's nice that you were encouraged by something, because the whole thing was pretty distressing to me. Obviously, I didn't experience it, but what actually happened that night or that day where they came to your house? What do you think about that process? Like the idea that they could say to you, you have to be separate from your kids for a night. I don't have that much familiarity with the system. I assume you have more familiarity now than you did a couple weeks ago. What do you think about that?

[Pete Buttigieg]

We got a lot of questions about how it got to that point and how a system whose entire purpose is to protect children and to protect the innocent could be abused that easily and have learned a lot about that system and these systems since. One thing I've learned is that many places have a way to have confidential reporting that is still not anonymous as far as the state is concerned, which can be important because making a false report is the crime.

[Tim Miller]

Do we know who made the report?

[Pete Buttigieg]

So we've been in contact with authorities because we're interested in the person who did this being prosecuted because we're in contact with authorities. That's all I'm going to say about it right now.

[Tim Miller]

But, yeah, there's just so much bullshit victim culture sometimes, you know, you see this on the right, you see it across the board. Right. In our society right now, it's like you can get attention from being a victim, and attention matters more than it used to. And so there's part of me that instinctually does not want to go to the gay place here. And yet it's kind of hard for me to separate this. And it's kind of hard for me to imagine that if you were a straight politician that this would have been the criminal prank that was played on you. What do you think about that? That.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I mean, this is the first time I've heard of this being done to anybody. In politics, when you go into politics, you know that a lot of crazy and awful things can happen. I did not have the imagination to guess that something like this could happen. And I hope that it never happens again to anybody. But, yeah, we're. We're the ones that happen to. Right. And first of all, obviously, I believe that anybody getting into politics or public life ought to be treated like anybody else, and it shouldn't matter if you're gay or whatever. And also, this is true for people who have nothing to do with politics, who just should, as they go about their lives, have the integrity of their families respected and protected by everybody. From their neighbors to the federal government. Government, just the same. And it's clear that we're a lot closer to that than we were when I was growing up. And we're also a lot further from that than where we need to get.

[Tim Miller]

To me, this hits so hard and I think that I can't separate it out from the part about you guys being gay dads because this is like kind of the ultimate fear of gay dads, I think, honestly. And it's the fear of any parent to lose a kid. But like there's, I do think, a distinct thing about, about feeling like as a gay dad that like you can be separated from your kid, you know, and that the kid can be taken from you. And I don't know, like, I don't. I mentioned this after it happened on a different show, but like, I don't know if this happens to you, but I go through tsa pre or clear. The thing happens now where the person asks the kid, like, who is this that you're with? Does this happen to you? Do your 4 year olds, can they talk yet?

[Pete Buttigieg]

No.

[Tim Miller]

Like that. Yeah, we travel all the time. I travel with my daughter all the time. And so this has happened 100 times. And so. And it's just like every time it's just there's something that hits you in your stomach that's like, I don't like that question because like that question has a subtext to it that's like, maybe that isn't your kid. And maybe the state can take that kid from you. Or maybe this person, the airport, can take that kid from you. That happened to you. Like the state came to your house and said you have to be separate from your kids for a night. I mean, that hits at a very, I think, particular place.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah. And again, I keep coming back to the purpose of these systems. Whether we're talking about Homeland Security or they're talking about cps, the purpose of these systems is to protect families and children. And here's a case where this system was abused in a way that hurt the family, Our family. Family. And then the bigger context is, is what you're describing. And that's, that's real. That's. There.

[Tim Miller]

Is there a part of you just want to be like you, I'm staying with my kids and send the cops?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I mean, of course, like, these are my kids, you know, like. But then, you know, you're also. Especially because for 24 hours we didn't know what this even was. Right. I don't know. You don't even know what you're up against. I mean, you mentioned check. I remember in a much more trivial example, but maybe a month or two ago I was going to Canada. I was going to this big dinner and conference and Mark Carney was there and Obama was there and I was going there and I'm going through the custom, the Canadian immigration, stamping my passport. And he asked what I'm doing there and I'm like, well, I'm going to this conference. He's like, what's the conference called? I was like, I actually don't know. I had a staff member traveling with me me, but she'd already gone through. And then he starts looking kind of skeptical and, and I start feeling like. I start feeling like I must be doing something wrong, like an imposter. I know exactly why I'm there. I'm. I'm planning to engage the, you know, the highest levels of the Canadian, Canadian government, among others in Canada. I have a very legitimate reason to be there. And I feel like immediately just kind of like, I don't know, like, like I'm doing something wrong. And I was reflecting on it that the, the next day, not knowing that a few weeks later something like this would happen. But like any encounter with authority can, can create that effect, right? And so it's one of the reasons why it's so incredibly important that

[Tim Miller]

you

[Pete Buttigieg]

have trust in the authorities that they will treat you fairly, that they will not treat you differently because you're gay or because you're opposed to the government or whatever.

[Tim Miller]

Colombia and Asyle, they got shot at than Maine.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Because in that context, even if I feel a little weird for a second, I know that this will all very easily be kind of clear to this Canadian immigration official within a couple of minutes that I'm there on legitimate business. And even though my head was saying that in this scenario too, my head is like, okay, this is obviously either a setup or a mix up or something because there's no reason and why there's no other reason why this would be happening. You're still saying that while there's a guy in a uniform and a lady in a clip with a clipboard in her hand in your home, in your driveway and you just have to. Everything depends on us knowing this kind of, maybe in a way this gets back to what I'm saying about the system too. If you're not so sure about the system system as is happening in so many ways right now because of who's running the federal government, right? If as you and I sit Here we hear about somebody, it sounds like a father shot, possibly in the presence of his toddler. And we have no confidence right now that we can even believe authorities when they give their initial account of what happened, because the last time they did, they were lying. Everything starts to fall apart, including your ability to feel safe, life in your own home.

[Tim Miller]

And it's legitimately scary, you know, I

[Pete Buttigieg]

mean, like, I would not wish it on anybody.

[Tim Miller]

And it's like, it can happen to you, and you're the Secretary of Transportation. It's fucking insane. You know, a phone call can't be made. I mean, just like. I don't know. I'm getting fucking pissed just thinking about it.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Just.

[Tim Miller]

You seem a little bit more even keel than your husband on this. I'm just. I'm just making sure he didn't think about January6ing the CPS building or something that night. How's he doing?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Doing again. We understand that there are people who have a job to do. We do not understand how that system got abused this way. And, you know, it's a little. Kind of a long road back to normal.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Pete Buttigieg]

But okay, I mean, he's a really strong person, and, you know, we're. We're getting through it. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that this, you know, really affected us.

[Tim Miller]

Does it change your opinion at all about doing shit like this? I mean, you know, does it change your opinion at all? Is it informing your thinking about whether you run for something again?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, if you're a human being like you, it actually does two, two kind of opposite things at the same time. Like, one thing it does to you is it makes you want to just run away from the bullshit and into the arms of your family as fast and hard as you can. And then at the same time, the other thing it makes you want to do is whatever it is you can do to make this the kind of place where stuff like that doesn't happen and where just our politics generally is different. I think that's part of why I mentioned the outreach. It's not just that people were nice. It's that I could feel a hunger for different kind of public life in this country. And so I feel like both of those things. And I do think there's also something weird and twisted, maybe this is everywhere, but I only know it in the American political culture where, like, if somebody says that they're, like, not gonna run again or they're leaving office so they can, like, be with their Family, more like in Washington speak. That's immediately taken as code for, like, they've done something wrong. Right? It's like this. It's just. Just like synonymous with, like, scandal or. Or screw up. Right?

[Tim Miller]

Nobody could actually want to be with their family that way.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Actually be. What's on your mind is. Which is so strange because, like, I. I think it's the. But, you know, it's definitely like the number one regret or complaint of people I know who are in this life. And it's the number one thing that makes it hard to do even just the regular stuff, like being on the road a lot and being away from your family, let alone the kind of threats or fear or harm that can come to your family or the effect on your family of the things that are. That happen to you. You know, all of that. How could that not. How could that not be, like, on your mind when you're thinking about where you fit in and whether your highest and best use is politics?

[Tim Miller]

Which side's winning out?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Ask me a few months.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Pete Buttigieg]

All right.

[Tim Miller]

I wanted to finish the politics, but actually, can we just. Let's palate cleanse a little bit, because that's so fucking awful. Tell me a funny story about the kids. How are the kids? They're four now.

[Pete Buttigieg]

They're four. They're great.

[Tim Miller]

What's happening with them?

[Pete Buttigieg]

They're hilarious. I mean, it's fun because now know they're beginning to get these glimmers of how the world works, right? Like, they have these pieces, these fragments, but they don't have the picture. So with our son, it's mostly. It's mostly actually about the natural. It's about animals. Like, he is all about animals. He watches this. This show full of animal facts. And then like. Like, I'll just. And he always. He's our morning person. I don't know how anybody in our household turned out to be a morning person, but he. So he'll just like, show up. Like, you'll hear the footfalls and then I'll. I'll hear him. Like, he' right up to the side of the bed. Like, right up to my face, you know, And I'm not. It's dark. I'm like, not awake. Like, Papa, I'm like, what? Yes. Everything okay? What, did somebody pee? Like, what's going on, Papa? There are seven species of giraffes on the African savannah. And that's it. Like, he just needed me to know that, you know? But I'm like, what does he think the African savannah is like? He doesn't understand geography. He doesn't know where Michigan is. He knows we live in a place called Michigan. We don't know what that. And same with our daughter. The fun thing with our daughter is she's starting to form this sense of just the very beginnings of a sense of civics. So one time, I can't remember how we got onto this. I think it was because you're asking about princesses and kings and queens and which ones are real Elsa compared to Taylor Swift, who she thinks is basically a Disney princess. And we got onto kings and the revolution and all of that. And another time we were driving by a few days ago, we were driving by this patriotic display close to where we live in Michigan. And it had the Constitution, the we the people kind of on the parchment, as well as an eagle and a bell and some other very patriotic things. And she's asking about it. And I was trying for the first time in my life to explain to a four year old what the Constitution is. And I was like, well, you know those letters there, that's part of the Constitution? She's like, what's that? I'm like, well, it's like the basic law. All the rules kind of come from that set of rules. She's like, well, what does that mean? I was like, well, it's like the instructions for the government. They know what Legos are. They know what instructions are for Legos. So I'm like, it's the instructions for government. And I'm not sure whether she's ever heard the word government before or not, but her mind immediately went to who makes up the government? Because the next question she said was like, who is that? Who does that? And I'm trying to think about how I render. Like I can't do like the three branches or how do I start to explain this? And before I can form a sentence she says, is it Judge Judy?

[Tim Miller]

No.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah. Really? Yeah. I think she was standing around.

[Tim Miller]

Who's watching Judge Judy in your house?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Her grandma sounds like she was staying with my in laws. And there's a little bit of Judge Judy on. And so what I like is that she's not that far off.

[Tim Miller]

Right?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, I know it's not quite it, but like she's like on the right track. And then there's a part of me that's thinking like, you know, might be better off if we all just imagined that that was just the three branches of government for now. It would probably be better. Better than what we've got. I don't Know anything about Judge Judy's politics, but yeah. So we're just in that phase of life where, like, you know, we're stepping on Legos a lot, but we're also, like, getting to make Legos, which is just one of the great. Like, making Legos with your kid is, like, one of the great joys in life. I think that's cute.

[Tim Miller]

I'll tell you where the Animal Facts are going, because my daughter's a couple years ahead. She has already done the Animal Facts show, and now she's doing a show on, like, the Great Mysteries, you know, so it's like a kids show, but, like, the Bermuda Triangle. Is that real or not? Or the Chupacabra. And then they do some real ones. So I feel like that's nice, actually. You're kind of debunking conspiratorial thinking early a little bit. So she's been coming to me with questions about that. So we were through the African Savannah. I'm sure I'll circle back around, but I feel like that's the right trajectory for him. At 4, you're lucky. It'll be 6. Does Trump exist in their world?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Not really. I don't think so.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. It was the worst part of. That's not true. Among the bad things of him winning again was like, I felt like I could get away with her not really knowing, you know, had he not won again, now it's too late. And so now she understands that he's bad. And she expressed a very bad thought about Donald Trump in front of my father later. And I was like, okay, we got to stand down the edges a little bit here about what's going happen in the house, but we're doing our best. I love that, though. Seven giraffes of the African spin. I didn't know that.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah. I don't know if I. That might not be true, that. But he's usually on point, like, he knew something I had wrong about what peregrine falcons eat. Or I forget. But, like, it's amazing the stuff that they hold on to. And of course, the other thing they hold onto is like, any promise you've ever made, like, if you said they were going to get some candy after lunch and then, like, their readiness. Talk about accountability. Like, their readiness to hold you to. Like, that.

[Tim Miller]

It's like a prosecutor.

[Pete Buttigieg]

It is. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Days later.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

You promised me a trip to the candy store. I was like, I did? Yes. Why? Over what? It was like you said, if I do this, we'll do that. And I was like, you're right, I did do that. All right, we'll do a little politics to close. You've been traveling the country a bunch. That's why you're here. You're going to Omaha tonight after this. Do you have any favorites? We got listeners sometimes who are looking for to support or who to donate to or to knock on doors for. Anybody impressing you out there?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah. You know, again, very impressed with what's going on in Iowa. I think when we talk about kind of squaring immediate economic concerns with like big picture stuff, one thing, one reason Rob sand is very effective and I think will be the next governor here is that he is not afraid to talk about these kind of systemic issues, about corruption and also talk about the everyday.

[Tim Miller]

I was really impressed with him last night. I thought that his presentation was. He is. We talked about this a second last night when I saw you after the speech. But he's like in front of, of a party event. So it's like a Democratic Party regulars. And he's in there saying, here's the thing about if I get in there, the Republicans are still going to control the House. And so we're going to have to meet over coffee and figure out how to meet the middle and how to compromise, just like my grandpa had to at Hardee's when he met his neighbor who was a Democrat. And I was like, that's a pretty savvy thing to do, message to give that seems authentic to him that sometimes it's like anything else you want clap for you. And so you're a Democratic thing, your instinct might be to give a very partisan speech. And I was impressed by what he was doing last night.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, I think he could really. Again, I think also when he's elected within the Democratic Party, he'll be very. I mean, he's already somebody I think a lot of people respect across the party. But I want him at more of those kind of tables where there's not a lot of people from the middle of the country. I think I'm going to be in Nebraska next. Omaha. I'm really excited to see Denise Powell's campaign for Congress there. Going to be in Florida soon. A lot to be excited about there. I've endorsed a couple of candidates there who are veterans. Darren McCauley and Leila Gray there, who she's a general, he's a military doctor

[Tim Miller]

For House guy Bail Dalton, you got to check him out. He's over on the Daytona beach side. He's running against Corey Mills. It's maybe one of the worst people in Congress. So, anyway, it's another one.

[Pete Buttigieg]

You know, what I love about a lot of these candidates is obviously, I tend to agree with them on the issues, but a lot of them also just represent, like, a different expectation about. Well, about character, to use this very quaint term that used to be big when we were growing up. Right. Just this idea that kind of a matter is what you're like, what you've shown, what you're about, what your sense of service is. And so I'm going to continue going to these places. A lot of them are redder, a lot of them are uphill, and we know it. I was in Northwest Georgia campaigning in Marjorie Taylor Greene's district for Sean Harris there. We're campaigning for our candidate for Congress in, in Little Rock. There's so many places that there just haven't been enough Democrats speaking to these communities and these audiences. So it's kind of like the Geographic version of my Fox News practice. Right. You can't blame somebody for not embracing your message if you haven't been out there to share it with them. And I'm going to keep doing that till the bell rings. I think.

[Tim Miller]

What is a good message for Trump voters right now, do you think, speaking to somebody that's voted for Trump but maybe doesn't like how things are going, which issues would come to mind for you?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I think the most important thing, the core of the whole message, is he doesn't deserve you. And I think it's really important to talk in a way that shows that we have a regard for you as a voter. We don't think any less of you as a person because you voted a different way than I voted. What I'm saying is the things that you may have believed that he would do because he promised you he would, whether it was cutting prices very quickly, quickly, whether it was no new dumb wars, and especially not a war with Iran. A lot of things where I could argue till I'm blue in the face about why he was never believable anyway. But the point is, he said he would do these things. A lot of good, smart people believed that they supported him, and now he's screwing them. And I think a message like that that focuses on how you as a voter deserve better, better. And I also know that when I say he doesn't deserve you, we still have some work to do to make the next step, which is that we deserve your vote more than him, or in this case in 2026, his congressional enablers right but that's where I think we show the things that we have done and will continue to do to make sure you can have healthcare. Right. I'm especially thinking about, like Obama, Trump, voters who voted a certain way and that might be part of why they have health care now, because the Affordable Care act and then went along with what Trump had to say and now Trump is screwing.

[Tim Miller]

Some of that was cultural stuff, though. The thing I get a little nervous about when I talk to Democrats is it's kind of like the easy thing to say. It's true and right. And Democrats should say it, which is Trump has let you down on wars and pricing. That might be good enough in 2027, because he really has let them down. But still, that other part of it about the Democrats not winning them over, a lot of that isn't those issues. It's more of culture issues, whether that be policing or immigration or LGBT stuff or whatever. What do you think about that?

[Pete Buttigieg]

But here's the thing. I mean, on so many of those issues too, not all of them, but on so many of those issues, on something like marriage, where, where when I was first worked on my first campaign out of college, that was kind of so lethal for Democrats that they were putting it on the ballot to help Bush. Right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Pete Buttigieg]

And now we're a country that's like a 60 or 70% issue among the American people. Even immigration, if you ask the question. Right. If you say, look, of course we got to have borders, of course we got to control who can be a citizen and who can come into this country. And we also also need to be fair and we need to be humane and we need to recognize that the economy has pulled in more people than the, the law has allowed and we need to have a pathway to citizenship as well as a strong border. Like people are on board with that. Right. So there are all these things. To me, a lot of the cultural stuff is actually code for something that's a level deeper, which is a lot of people who got the impression that Democrats don't like them.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Pete Buttigieg]

And if you think if a voter feels that way, then it's not going to matter that you think I'm right about taxes or whatever. Right. You can't blame somebody for that. It's why one thing I can't stand is the self reinforcing version of that. That is whenever you hear somebody accusing a voter of voting against their own

[Tim Miller]

interests, what's the matter with Kansas?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah. And frankly, a lot of those voters could look at a lot of the people who say that kind of thing and say, so are you. Yeah, we all vote a complicated mix of our interests and our values. And the more we show just regard for that, respect for that for each other, the more I think we're. We're one step closer to finding our way out of this. And campaigns matter, obviously. Campaigns matter hugely in terms of who wins. Campaigns matter for more than who wins. Right. The way a campaign is done is a big deal in and of itself. Itself. And I think the Democrats I'm supporting across the country, I think get that. They reflect that. The ones who win will be fantastic. Even the ones who come up short, I think will make our party and our country better because of the way they run. That's the kind of thing I'm looking for anyway when I'm getting involved.

[Tim Miller]

You're not a candidate, so you're just a voter in Michigan. There's a big Michigan Senate primary happening right now. Gary Peters came out today and endorsed Haley. Stevens was kind of nasty about it, and now he talked about Abdul. I kind of feel like you're maybe like a swing voter in Michigan. Are you? I mean, in that primary.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I mean, I'm not a swing voter in the general. No.

[Tim Miller]

In that primary, Abdul. And I kind of. You look at. Just as a political scientist. I look at this as a political observer, not a scientist. I look at this and I say, well, the Abdul voters are people who are with Bernie and it was with Warren in the primary and the Haley voters are probably with Joe Biden in the primary. And it's like the Pete voters might be up for grabs. So how are you looking at it?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I mean, I'm mainly focused and I'm choosing my words here because I think it's really important in this very intense primary that we not lose supporters of whoever's going to lose and a very effective candidate with a very strong following is going to lose and we're going to have a matter of weeks because the primary is so strangely late in our state to get together and to make sure that Mike Rogers is not the next US Senator to be rubber stamped from what Trump doing. So that's how I'm coming at it.

[Tim Miller]

Privacy of the ballot box for you, then door. Haley could still. It's so late. They could still call you. I'm sure they can call you.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, they have.

[Tim Miller]

See how it goes. All right, Pete, anything else? Any other final. Do you want to leave us with a Iowa. Iowa favorite? You know, did you get to stop by any of your favorites?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I didn't get the fair food this time. So that alone is Ray Gun.

[Tim Miller]

You're at Ray Gun. Did you get any T shirts? I saw your there.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I did. I got. I think I may have made a mistake.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Pete Buttigieg]

What? Well, we got twins, so I got to do, you know, something for both of them.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Pete Buttigieg]

And they already have the Ray Gun shirts that they like.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. Do you do the same thing or different?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I do different. This risky? It's risky, yeah. Because I got. They're both getting green shirts, but he's getting a squirrel shirt, says, take me to your feeder. I love that.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Especially because we've had a lot of

[Tim Miller]

rodent situations last time I was in town. No, it was all the different kinds of possums.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Oh, yeah, yeah. We have one of those birds that Gus loves. Yeah. So we got to Take me to your feeder shirt for Gus. I got her. She's really into unicorns.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Pete Buttigieg]

So I thought, okay, I'll get her the unicorn shirt. But I realized it's a unicorn with a pirate. A sword wielding pirate on it.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Pete Buttigieg]

And so I think it's understood that it's like a her kind of shirt because of the unicorn. Unicorn. But now I'm thinking about it because at the Cherry festival the other day, which is a big thing in Traverse City, where we live, we of course went to the parade, which was fun. You know, I've been to dozens of parades that I was in them.

[Tim Miller]

I. I can.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I've never had the experience of just like, sitting on a blanket with my kids, like, watching a parade, watching the march next year. I don't know if we're ready for that. I think you are. But anyway, so we came out of it, and he got to pick his toy and he got this like, light up clown, plastic pirate sword thing. And now I'm wondering, is there going to be a contest over the shirt? Because it's got a pirate on it. And so I don't know. We'll find out when I get back.

[Tim Miller]

Please report back. I know the listeners are going to want to know how that went. Naspy buttigieg, man, I appreciate all the time. Good luck on the campaign trail. The candidates you're endorsing are really great. We're super aligned on all that. And so we'll put a list of where you've been here in the show notes so folks can decide if they want to support them. And we'll see you soon. All right, man. Come on down to New Orleans. You know, it doesn't have to be Mardi Gras I might turn up. But we'll see you soon. All right.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Thank you.

[Tim Miller]

Thanks, Pete. But your softest whispers Louder than the

[Pete Buttigieg]

highways Call to me

[Tim Miller]

Close your eyes

[Pete Buttigieg]

I'll be here in the morning

[Tim Miller]

Close your eyes I'll be here for a while The Bork podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.