Bill Kristol: Call the Pool Police

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Bill Kristol: Call the Pool Police

Date: June 22, 2026
Hosts: Tim Miller, Bill Kristol

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Overview of the Episode’s Theme

This episode dives into the absurd and menacing elements of contemporary politics in the Trump era, juxtaposing the farce of President Trump’s reflecting pool scandal with the more serious geopolitical events involving Iran, as well as a broader critique of MAGA world personalities, including J.D. Vance. Tim Miller and Bill Kristol also reflect on global developments, including tumult in UK politics, the rise of figures like Giorgia Meloni in Italy, and democratic backsliding in Latin America. The show moves fluidly between satirical commentary and earnest political analysis, lampooning political absurdities while warning of real threats to liberal democracy.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Reflecting Pool Farce and Trump's Crackdown

• [01:26 - 07:27]
  • The episode begins with comic disbelief at President Trump’s disastrous attempt to refurbish the National Mall Reflecting Pool, leading to blue paint chipping, algae, and even a dead duckling ("not good imagery" – Tim Miller, 06:52).
  • Authorities are targeting “vandals,” including a 67-year-old cyclist and potentially journalists, for merely inspecting or touching the pool.
  • Satirically, Tim compares the situation to "a 90s movie with school principal... Ferris Bueller's Day Off, where you have a grumpy principal: ‘anything you do to embarrass me, you’ll get detention.’” (05:14)
  • Bill Kristol frames this as both “farcical” and “doing Trump damage,” but flags the intimidation as a taste of autocratic tendencies.
  • Ongoing lawsuits regarding modifications to the historic Reflecting Pool are discussed, with the hope that attention stays on Trump's failures rather than his messaging.

Notable Quotes:

• “It is one part idiocracy, one part menace.” – Tim Miller (02:34)
• “The more news, the more attention the reflecting pool gets, the better.” – Bill Kristol (05:38)

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2. Iran Crisis and Trump’s “Art of the Steal” Diplomacy

• [07:27 - 17:24]
  • Strait of Hormuz closures are causing fresh economic strain; US officials, including Jared Kushner and VP Vance, are frantically negotiating in Switzerland.
  • Miller skewers the use of Jared Kushner, a “foreign agent” with no security clearance, as point man on deal-making. Details like JD Vance using someone else’s security badge are presented as self-parody.
  • Bill notes this is all “fake toughness from Trump. Fake negotiations with Vance. Fake concessions. Fake achievements.”
  • Discussion on Fox News’ attempts to manufacture Trump’s image as both tough and patient is ridiculed: “His patience ran out with me—he sent the mob to kill me!” – Tim on Trey Gowdy’s questioning of Pence. (15:44)
  • The futility of Trump’s Iran strategy—fake strength, embarrassing optics, and absence of real leverage—is dissected.

Notable Quotes:

• “It’s also pathetic on eight different levels.” – Bill Kristol on Vance’s efforts to project agency (11:10)
• "We have a foreign agent...who the vice president is crediting with being the point person on this negotiation." – Tim Miller (10:44)

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3. The JD Vance/MAGA Leadership Problem

• [19:25 - 31:47]
  • Review of JD Vance’s media tour and his new book "Communion," with mockery over his rationalizations and opportunism.
  • Ross Douthat’s interview with Vance is highlighted; when pressed about the administration’s “aggressive uncharity,” Vance dodges, framing criticisms as policing of “working-class ways of communication.” Ross’s facial reaction is described as “priceless” (21:17).
  • Kristol eviscerates Vance’s elitist condescension pretending to speak for the working class: “He does have deep contempt. They all have such contempt...the MAGA world leaders have such contempt for their followers.” (22:51)
  • Miller notes the contradiction between Vance’s supposed working-class authenticity and actual biography: “These are not JD Vance’s people…He went to Yale. The whole thing is preposterous.” (22:51)
  • The group unpacks how MAGA leaders project their own nastiness as "working-class" authenticity, deflecting from genuine issues of cruelty, lack of charity, and division.

Notable Quotes:

• “The whole [JD Vance] thing is fake. He’s talented, Mr. Ripley—a talented con man.” – Tim Miller (27:16)
• “Vance is almost as much of a phony as Trump.” – Bill Kristol (27:16)
• “Trump is a liar, but he is authentically himself…Trump lies in his own self-interests…Whereas JD, the whole thing is fake.” – Tim Miller (27:21)

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4. Tulsi Gabbard’s Guru and Trump World Sleaze

• [32:46 - 36:03]
  • Miller recaps a Washington Post report revealing how Tulsi Gabbard, while Director of National Intelligence, was heavily influenced by her childhood Hindu cult leader, Chris Butler (“Guru Chris”).
  • The guru dictated her statements on Syria and other geopolitical issues—a possible factor in dubious intelligence on Iran.
  • The discussion devolves humorously into the “Trump world” binary: advisers are “either crazy, or just corrupt.”

Notable Quote:

• “We either have someone who’s taking orders from a cult leader, or we have a totally more standard corrupt henchman.” – Bill Kristol (35:05)

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5. Global Update: UK, Italy, and Latin America

• UK Politics [36:21 - 39:59]

  • Bill reflects on the collapse of another UK Prime Minister—likening the impact of Brexit to Trump’s rise (“I had this moment of premonition—if it happened there, it’ll happen here.” – Kristol, 36:21).
  • The hosts discuss public dissatisfaction with moderate leadership, cost of living, and cyclical instability ("My guess is they’ll end up with six Prime Ministers in 12 years." – Tim, 39:59).

• Meloni and European Right [41:14 - 45:51]

  • Surprises at Giorgia Meloni (Italy's PM) being a more “respectable” right-wing leader than initially feared, particularly on Ukraine.
  • Questions if the best scenario for the U.S. is a “Maloney-like” Republican: populist but not authoritarian.

• Latin America [47:44 - 50:05]

  • Surge in Latin American elections matching the pattern: “socialist school teacher vs right-wing caudillo.”
  • Alarm at Colombia’s leftist president blaming Israel for losing, as indicative of “Israel derangement syndrome” and general democratic instability.

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6. World Cup as a Rebuttal to MAGA Nativism

• [50:10 - 51:44]
  • Bill lauds the World Cup in the US as a showcase of liberal, cosmopolitan patriotism—contrasting MAGA’s anti-immigrant “social cohesion” arguments.
  • “Seems like we’ve had a ton of social cohesion actually with all the visitors from around the world…Seems like the social cohesion is just fine.” – Tim Miller (51:44)

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Notable, Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Reflecting Pool Police State:
  "It is one part idiocracy, one part menace." – Tim Miller (02:34)

• JD Vance's Phoniness:
  “He’s talented, Mr. Ripley—a talented con man.” – Tim Miller (27:16)
  “Vance is almost as much of a phony as Trump.” – Bill Kristol (27:16)

• Foreign Policy Absurdity:
  "We have a foreign agent...being the point person on this negotiation." – Tim Miller (10:44)

• World Cup and Social Cohesion:
  “Seems like the social cohesion is just fine...maybe the Vice President smearing people based on their nation of origin and race is what’s harming social cohesion.” – Tim Miller (51:44)

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Important Timestamps

• [01:26] — Start of main show, Reflecting Pool fiasco
• [04:06 - 05:38] — Media crackdown, intimidation, and pending lawsuits
• [07:27] — Strait of Hormuz, Iran crisis, and US negotiations
• [10:44] — Jared Kushner’s central (and suspect) role in negotiations
• [15:44] — Fox News, Trump’s foreign policy fakery and "patience"
• [21:17] — JD Vance defends MAGA nastiness as “working-class culture”
• [27:16] — JD Vance as a phony opportunist, "Talented Mr. Ripley"
• [35:05] — Tulsi Gabbard’s cult ties and Trumpworld chaos
• [36:21] — UK instability/Brexit’s relevance to US politics
• [43:41] — Meloni, the European right, and possible takeaways for US politics
• [47:44] — Democratic backsliding in Latin America, anti-Israel conspiracy
• [50:10] — World Cup as counter-argument to nativist social cohesion concerns

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Conclusion

This episode delivers The Bulwark’s trademark blend of bitterly funny, deeply critical political analysis. The show lampoons Trump's obsession with optics and power, skewers the phoniness and cruelty endemic in MAGA leadership, and draws lessons from global developments for American democracy. Throughout, Tim Miller and Bill Kristol balance sarcasm and frustration with a clear-eyed warning about the underlying threats, offering useful, pointed context for listeners wrestling with the simultaneously farcical and dangerous state of politics.

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For listeners who missed the show:
This summary provides all major themes, sharpest critiques, and the logic behind every satirical jab—giving a vivid, timestamped tour of the madness, menace, and occasional hope in today’s domestic and global politics.

Transcript

[Bill Kristol]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Bill Kristol]

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[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday, so of course we are here with editor at large Bill Kristol, who is free. We're all walking free, though we are watching very closely one of our colleagues who is the first person down there doing intrepid reporting at the reflecting pool. Noticing, or maybe not noticing, but documenting that the blue paint was coming off chipping would be the most generous thing you could say to Donald Trump's reflecting pool paint man. Huge portions of it were coming off. And in the intervening period, we've heard that there are arrests happening for any troublemakers who are observing the President's failures,

[Bill Kristol]

as Andrew pointed out this morning. It's funny, but maybe not so funny because people actually have arrested the 67 year old bicyclist who showed up and seems to have simply reached into the pool to see like what it feels like with all the alleys, algae and the, and the front of the bottom coming off there. And I think he has been arrested. I mean, I mean, and he has to, I don't know, get bail and get a lawyer and all this, like

[Tim Miller]

everything, you know, it is one part indiocracy, one part menace. You know, there are elements of it that are concerning. There are the North Korean elements. You know, people cannot observe our government's incompetence and waste and, and buffoonery without fear that the state will come after them. To example, this judge Box of Wine was on Fox News over the weekend speaking to Peter Doocy and they talked about how seriously they're taking the investigation regarding any so called vandals of the reflecting Pool. And that includes those in the press. Let's listen to that. Trump's got a Crime Stoppers tip for you. He says lightweight ABC reporter Jonathan Karl was seen sticking his hand into the pool and trying to rip the rubber off this surface. Judge, is Jonathan Karl from ABC in trouble? Well, you know, it depends. You know, anyone who is in a position of vandalizing or attempting to vandalize

[Bill Kristol]

the Reflecting Pool will face the criminal justice system in D.C. look, the president

[Tim Miller]

has made it a priority to make

[Bill Kristol]

D.C. not only safe, but beautiful.

[Tim Miller]

And there are several citations that have been handed out to individuals. And these are cases that will be prosecuted to the full extent. Prosecuted. Both of those people have a face and voice for print. I'm not sure that what Fox is doing there with their lineup, but prosecuted to the fullest extent. This is the world we're in.

[Bill Kristol]

It is farcical. Anyone doesn't want to. Mostly it's farcical and it's actually doing Trump damage, which is good, I think, because everyone's just laughing at him, both at what's happened, of course, with the pool itself and the algae and the paint chips, as you say, to be charitable, if you can call them that, huge chunks of the whole bottom of the pool, basically. And then this attempt to intimidate people from going and looking at it or maybe even feeling what it's like or pulling up one of these loose pieces of stuff. Trump has invented this vandalism capital V he puts on it the vandalism of 250ft. Then I think it became 300ft. I noticed in some later tweet, someone went in and gashed the pool for 300ft. That's kind of a big gash. You know, I feel stupid even taking it like quasi seriously. I think this thing is on camera 24 7. No one went into and gash the bottom. But this is, I mean the big lie thing. But here we have Fox sort of treating it like a real thing. And I don't know, as I said, there could be some people who were being harassed.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I mean, Peter Doocy there basically agitating for John Carl to be arrested. And he doesn't like this fake laughing voice. But honestly, I mean, you're interviewing the person that arrested the sandwich man.

[Bill Kristol]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

So I mean, you know, Judge Jeanine is going to do Investigations. And it's kind of reminiscent of. It's like a 90s movie with school principal. You know, it's kind of reminiscent of like a Simpsons or a Ferris Bueller stay off type situation where you have a grumpy principal. It's like, anything you do to embarrass me, you'll get detention. You know, there's that, like, element to this, which is, you know, not how things should be going in a free country.

[Bill Kristol]

I think we're enough of a free country still, that it is more farcical than menacing, unlike some of the other things he's doing, which really are probably more menacing than farcical. But. But look, it is very important, I think, to. I was on a call earlier this morning, some lawyers were debating. There's actually some lawsuit that's pending from some historic preservation group that this was filed four weeks ago. But you shouldn't be messing around with the reflective pool this way. There are processes you should go through before you change a historic site like that. And I think they're thinking the lawyers are revitalizing this suit in light of subsequent developments by. Not a bad idea. And there was a little bit of an argument, well, isn't it taking it too seriously and all that. But I think the more news, the more attention the reflecting pool gets, the better. We're only. What? He's giving a speech there Wednesday. Trump is near the beginning of this great American fair, whatever the heck it is, you know, that all the artists pulled out of and that he decided he would give this opening speech at. And I'm hopeful that, A, no one will pay any attention to it, but B, to the degree people pay attention entirely to take a look at the reflecting pool. Not to, of course, listen to Trump's interpretation of our 250th birthday. So.

[Tim Miller]

Well, there was a dead duckling in the reflecting pool over the weekend.

[Bill Kristol]

That's bad. Don't you think that's bad, P.I. i mean, I think you did this stuff for a living once 10, 15 years ago. And I think a dead duckling is not good. Not good.

[Tim Miller]

It's not good imagery. It's going to be the opposite of Bernie's bird. Remember, the bird landed on Bernie's podium and all the Bernie people made a big deal. It's sort of like the opposite to that. It's the dead bird. The taxpayers will pay. They'll be paying more to fix that. He posted. Work will begin immediately on fixing the reflecting pool. So the bill will go up for that, just like for the Ballroom and the Bun.

[Bill Kristol]

Another no bid. Another no bid contract.

[Tim Miller]

If I get contract to a guy that looks like he's a bad guy from the 1980s movie who was part of the Jim Trafficant scandal. Guy part of the gym trafficking.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I know it.

[Tim Miller]

So you can't make it up, right? Fucking ridiculous. Okay, well, justice for the bicycling man. And we will continue to keep an eye on the story. Let's move on to Iran. The Strait of Hormuz was closed again over the weekend in response to Israel and Hezbollah continuing fighting in southern Lebanon and attacks back and forth there. If you look at the analysis of kind of just monitoring the ships going through the strait and it does seem like that there's maybe ghost ships going through, etceter, but just the ones, you know, that, that you can monitor. Before the war started, you know, I was looking at a chart, looks like about, you know, depending on the day, 6070, 80 ships were going through that went down to basically zero. We had a peak after Treaty of Versailles to electric boogaloo of 15 ships making it through. That number went back down to three yesterday as Iran closed the strait again. Meanwhile, the Vice President and the President's son in law are in Switzerland negotiating.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, quote, negotiating. They seem to be giving, they're giving Iran even more to try to get that straight open again. And since, as Trump correctly said it, this is going to cause the longer it stays closed, the more problems for the global economy. This thing is ridiculous to follow every twist and turn. I feel like part of me felt writing warning shots this morning. I don't have to write about Iran. It's kind of important. But I thought, oh my God, another fake toughness from Trump. Fake negotiations with vans, fake concessions here, fake achievements there. The IAEA might get back in. I believe they were in there. That was the whole point of the Obama deal. You know, they were in, in a very complicated and serious way, actually. And now Iran's vaguely promised, yeah, we'll let some of these inspectors in, maybe. Vance says they promise. You don't even know if they promise, honestly. Meanwhile, we're giving up sanctions, we're giving money right and left to them. They're doing fine. And that's going to continue to be the case.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So that was the big kind of new quote, unquote news this morning. The inspectors are coming in and they also, the vice President said this at a press conferen this morning. Jared Kushner came up with a very interesting idea during the negotiations. Kushner and the Qataris figured this out together. Vance said it is kind of interesting. I mean, we had the big signing on Wednesday, so it feels like the ideas about the sanctions relief and the inspectors kind of should have been previously to the mou. But anyway, nitpicking. Jared Kushner, according to Vance, came with an interesting ideas idea, which is that when we unfreeze the money for Iran, that will then actually go to buy American soy, American corn, and American wheat for the benefit of the Iranian people. What Jared and the Qataris and the entire team here at Bergenstock accomplished to me is a classic Trump deal. Maybe true, but not in the way that the vice president means a classic Trump deal. But all of this is absurd and it's desperate, and it's just like, oh, okay, well, now we took some heat that we're giving the Iranians so much money, so it's like it's going to go to the American farmers now. It's like, does anybody believe this? Do the Iranians even care? Why is Jared there? We have an agent of the Saudi government who doesn't work for our government, who the vice president is crediting with being the point person on this negotiation.

[Bill Kristol]

I think one interesting side, sort of minor aspect of it, was Vance dragging Jared. I mean, mentioning Jared so prominently. Right. That Jared negotiated this very well. So this is. Don't you think this is Vance trying to make say this is Trump's deal. This is Trump's. The Trump family's involved. This isn't just they try to put me out there. It's the kind of, you know, sacrifice me as the sacrificial lamb on this. But I. I'm working closely with Jared. It's. It's also pathetic on eight different levels.

[Tim Miller]

Or maybe Jared is in charge that it's pathetic. I mean, he's not trying to do anything. Maybe he's. He is just totally cucked by Jared and the Trump family. Like, whatever you say, sir. I don't know. It's hard to say. And they posted. The Qataris posted a picture of Jared. JD and the Cuttery representative looked like kind of like a hotel conference room. There's a Keurig machine in the back, and they're, like, hunched over a single laptop, and JD Has a woman's ID card put into the computer. So I don't know, maybe he forgot his passcode for, you know, Jared doesn't have a security clearance. He's in there. We have a foreign agent, and then we have the vice president, who I guess didn't have his. His password so some other woman's card is in there and, like, that's the picture that they're putting out. And it's like the Iranians are kind of just chilling.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

You know, it's like all of the optics of this about who has the power in the negotiation. And there's a video from the initial meeting and in Switzerland, and the Iranians didn't show up to the open press part of the meeting. It was just kind of Jared milling about talking to a couple of Gulf State leaders. I mean, he is just clearly, you know, the Beta Party and the negotiation right now, as we are, like, begging them to get the strait back open and also giving them money and I guess.

[Bill Kristol]

Was that picture put out, photo put out by the Qataris? I think so, probably. Right.

[Tim Miller]

And so, yeah, by the Qataris.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. So they're relishing their status here. They're a country that we have. We have had in the past some real issues with, I believe, tolerant, you know, Hamas is headquartered there and stuff. But, you know, they're great, and we're happy to use their passcode, their card for the computer. No issues there.

[Tim Miller]

No security problems. They're giving us the plane, after all. They're spying on us.

[Bill Kristol]

That was a great gift. It only cost the taxpayers a billion dollars to retrofit it to make it

[Tim Miller]

both secure so we could look for all the little bugs that they put in there. Yeah. Also the thing JD's walking around where he's milling about, the Pakistanis are also there, and JD's like, we love the Pakistanis. Thank you. It's like, weren't they hiding Osama bin Laden? Actually, didn't we have to ascend CLT6 in there in secret at night? If we liked the Pakistanis so much, couldn't we have negotiated the arrest of Osama bin Laden? Would we have needed to fly in under cover of darkness and kill him? The whole thing is absurd.

[Bill Kristol]

This is Trump's foreign policy. Right. We're on great terms with Qatar, the Pakistanis. We're getting on great terms with Iran, traditional democratic allies, people, Ukraine, who were fighting for their survival and for liberal democracy. We don't care that much about them.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Reuters also said, I just, I should note that even once the straight gets back open, you are going to have to fill out a TPS report before you can get through. It's got to be submitted through three Mullabobs, and you got to do it 48 hours in advance. Cover sheet's got to be right. And so we'll See how that shakes out. I wanted to play a little cope from Fox about how they're feeling about things. It's really interesting to watch. You know, there are kind of two factions on Fox, right? There is kind of like the America First. We shouldn't be involved there at all. Like, whatever. Who cares? We should be humiliated and just let the Iranians have whatever they want, get out of their crowd and go back to focusing on things that really matter, like mass deportations and menacing people at quinceaneras. So there's that crowd at Fox, and then that kind of overlaps with just the cultists type. So just like, say everything's great no matter what happens. And then there are the Hawks, who are still kind of trying to backfill and spin this idea that's like, well, Trump might. There might be some 40 chess at play here. You know, Trump might be waiting till after the election. Trump might be, you know, leading Iranians into a trap. And in that category, we had Trey Gowdy last night interviewing the former Vice President, Mike Pence. And I was kind of tickled with the end of the exchange in that interview. I'd like to play for you. I've seen his patients run out with me on the golf course. I don't know if you've ever seen his patients run out, but that is not something the Iranians, I think, want to see. There's just so many layers there. It's like, on the one hand, it's like, oh, the Iranians better watch out. Like, Donald Trump's getting impatient now. It's like, oh, wait, he just signed a surrender in Versailles in France, like, last week. And then number two, it's Gowdy looking at Pence being like, have you ever seen Trump run out of patience with you? Yeah, he sent the mob to kill me.

[Bill Kristol]

I think Pence had a little grin on his face when Gaudy said that. Didn't you think Pence was aware of the irony of the situation?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Trey, yeah, he's run out of patience with me. That's the kind of material you're getting on Weekend Fox. So it's all kind of postdoc backfilled spin from the MAGA folks. The one thing I will say is, if it were true that Trump cared about the actual result in Iran, which it isn't, chilling out now and avoiding the energy crisis and then handling it during the lame duck two years would actually be the smart thing to do, but I just don't think that that's real.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, no, I don't think he's going back there. And also, what would that even mean? I mean, handling it right. We tried to handle it for 37 days. Didn't work out. So another 37 days of bombing, it's possible. And I don't think the ground troops options really on the great point.

[Tim Miller]

This goes back to the whole the premise of the war was wrong. It's not just Trump being. It's true that Trump is humiliated and he's walking away and he's embarrassed and he's weak. It's also true that the whole premise of the war was flawed, as Bob Kagan laid out from the start, and that going back to doing it again next year would not have any better of a result.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I think that's right. The real world effects are bad. It's one of these things. This one is on the farcical plus disastrous side. This one's farcical also, of course, watching the negotiations and watching Trey Gowdy stuff, but it is more disastrous than farcical, whereas the reflecting hula is more farcical than disastrous. This is the way we balance things in the Trump era. You know, there is.

[Tim Miller]

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[Bill Kristol]

You guys are good dramatic readers, though. I want to say that I didn't realize that was in your in your tools toolkit. That was good.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. You know, I've got a lot of weaknesses, Bill, but I have a few surprising strengths as well. You know, another person that had that did something surprising was Ross Douthat in the interview with J.D. vance, because Ross doesn't want to really go at him hard. You know, you can tell it's a friendly space. But Ross has not completely given himself into the devil in the way that J.D. has. You know, and he still has. I think he's still trying to process how to balance sympathies with MAGA with genuine Catholic faith, which at times creates tension between him and jd. Because for jd, the whole thing is a farce. The whole thing, who the hell knows? He might be a Baptist in two years if that helps him out politically. And the whole thing is ridiculous. And so that creates tension at times. And during JD's interview with Ross, Ross was asking him how he manages to align the rhetoric of this administration with Christian teaching. And I want to play a little bit of that exchange. Let's be honest, the tone of the administration is not consistently a Christian tone. There is a tone of aggressive uncharity to people who aren't on board with the administration's policies.

[Bill Kristol]

I'm not saying we're perfect, because we're not. My point is that the tone argument is in some Ways I think people see what they want to see. And I also think that tonal arguments are ways of frankly policing working class ways of communication and covering them in elite preferences.

[Tim Miller]

Ross's face there, it's worth viewing on the video version. He's just like, he can't even fake it on this one. JD with one of his tells, there's frankly, frankly, this is just a way of policing the way that the working class talk. What do you make of that, Bill?

[Bill Kristol]

JD's amazing, right? I mean, he's read some of this, he's not stupid and he's read some sort of high tone bullshit about, you know, in defense of MAGA world and working class prejudice world, if we can be honest about it over the years. And one of them is something about, yeah, elite policing of working class, you know, real man, real, real manly talk there in middle America or something. And so JD throws out this one or two sentences, gibberish, right? I mean, what is the relevance to what he's, what he's saying here? And incidentally, it shows what JD really thinks about the working class. He has. He thinks they can't be asked to do better than be aggressively uncharitable. I guess that was Ross's term. Right. As if. My experience with working class people is many of them are quite charitable. They have somewhat fewer resources than some upper middle and class and wealthy people. And often they're better, they're more charitable. You know, I think there's a lot, we've all had that experience in life. The person who is a nurse or a school teacher or works in the cafeteria and is a very generous and warm person and much nicer than the wealthy guy down the street who's a jackass, you know, but that would be the kind of obvious answer to make here. But JD doesn't go there. But he does have deep contempt. They all have such contempt. I guess you've made this point and maybe this is a JBL point too. I mean, the MAGA world leaders have such contempt for the actual, for their followers.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, of course, JD moved his family to dc. These are not JD Vance's people. Like he went to Yale. The whole thing is preposterous, but it is, it is extremely revealing. Like this idea that it's like, oh, well, it's the working class people who are uncharitable. Ross's question was not, oh, about how you're crass. Right. It might be one thing to say, oh, in these Frou Frou elite circles, people want us to use fancy hundred Dollar words or whatever. And Donald Trump talks in more of a reality TV way, which he'll curse and he'll be a little crass. That wasn't the question. The question was about the administration's tone of aggressive uncharity to their opponents. And so he's referring to there as obviously a million examples of all the ways that Donald Trump insults, dehumanizes his opponents. But JD himself, just the other day, I believe it was on, I think he was on Greg Gutfeld's show on Fox where he's talking about how Democrats are just bad people, people because they don't like America. That is the aggressive uncharity we're talking about. It's talking about how somebody that you disagree with politically, that means that they're a bad person. And that means that you can insult them and be mean to them and be an asshole and be cruel and not consider their humanity. Or maybe the example of talking about a group of people that are migrants into a community and you create a lie about how they eat their dogs and they eat their pets because you want to use them as a cudgel is aggressive on charity to people. That is something that is distinct to MAGA leaders. And it is something that is in JD Vance and Donald Trump's character that they are so nasty and cruel to people that either oppose them politically or that they can use to advance their political interests. And JD's response to that is, well, that's just kind of how working class people are. They're all fucking assholes like me. Me, right. Like they're all dicks. And that is an unbelievably revealing admission in addition to it not being true. And the whole thing shows how much of a put on it all is too. It's like, oh, yeah, okay, whatever. Like, oh, that's how the regular folks are. They are really nasty to people. And it's just like, that's not how America is. That's not true, actually. Like, you don't go to, like, you know, if you're at a church function or if you're at a YMCA event, if you're at the Score Team, like, people are not, not aggressively uncharitable to the fellow people in their community. That's just not true.

[Bill Kristol]

That's a good point. I really thought, I mean, jd, somewhat cleverly, you might say, takes a question of Ross's straightforward question about the administration, aggressive uncharity, but doesn't defend the administration, makes it seem as if Ross is asking about or almost attacking working class people who are not in the question, to my knowledge, for not living up to liberal elite culture standards and then gives a fake defense of working class people, which is itself a, you know, a terrible concession that somehow they're not behaving well. But that's just an elite cultural judgment of them. So it's really like a two or three or four step, I don't know, evasion. Plus, I mean, shows he's unwilling to defend the administration, I guess. Well, that's worth. But maybe if Trump's reading it carefully or listening to this, he will turn, he will get even more annoyed at JD but it is very much their deflection. Right. If you criticize anything, if you criticize ice for, you know, what they've been doing. Yeah. You just don't understand working class America, Tim. You know, that's, that's, that's really inside the Beltway coastal, because the people working

[Tim Miller]

in the kitchen, that ice is menacing. They're not working. They're not the worst Americans. We're talking about actually. We're just talking about a specific type of white working class people that, that support us. Like, that's what we're talking about. They also have support, though, so they're

[Bill Kristol]

not really talking about anyone. That's what's actually.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, they're talking about, about themselves. They're finding a way to deflect criticism of themselves. And they have contempt for the working class people they don't like, especially if they're people of color. And they have contempt for the working class people who mostly have voted for them, many of whom have voted for them. So they're losing some of them now, I point out, because they have contempt for them too. Vance is almost as much of a phony as Trump. I mean, it's really kind of amazing, isn't it? More, more.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Trump is. Trump is a liar, but he is authentically himself.

[Bill Kristol]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

Like, Trump lies in his own self interests. Right. Like he has a mega low maniac. He loves himself and he will do and say anything to support his own interests. Which in a way is like, it's like the old billboard. They're going on like, at least I knew he was a wolf. I'd rather have a wolf than a wolf in sheep's clothing. Trump is just kind of authentically wolf. Like the JD the whole thing is fake. The whole thing he's trying to. The book, the degree to which his conversion story is just so obviously phony. It's hard to really put into words the rationales that he comes up for it don't even make any sense. He's like, oh, Peter Thiel taught me that religious people could also be smart. It's like you didn't know that before you met Peter Thiel, of all people. The whole thing is just. He's so transparent. He's changed his name three times, he's changed his role religion several times. He's changed his political ideology. Like the whole thing is fake. And he, but he's, he's, he's talent and he's. What was the George Packer wrote about this? He's talented, Mr. Ripley. Like, he's a talented con man. Like, he's deft at trying to find cute sounding rationalizations for all this. Just like in this, in this interview, right? It's like you can see what he's trying to do. Like he's trying to avert accountability for his own behavior and immediately pivot it back to an attack on some elite culture. But he also in the book. I'm sorry, now you've got me on one about JD he fucking pisses me off so much.

[Bill Kristol]

This is interesting though. Most of us haven't read. But you've read this book, so most of us don't have to, Tim. So that's.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, well, actually shout out to Ansley, who read it on my list and then just gave me key sections because I can only take so much. The listeners don't want me to have stroked out last week and I do still have to stay out of the hospital. You know, the blood pressure gets high just talking about it. But he also reflects on like how WASP culture was superior to our meritocracy. This is another kind of old canard of the right wing how just like it wasn't actually that bad when before DEI and before the left wing meritocrats and technocrats took over, we had. When we just had white Protestant running everything and, you know, handing things down to their, their children. It was better because they had this like noblesse oblige, right? Like there was. They believed in certain mores and they cared about service. And it's like there's something to that. The whole premise isn't crazy, but he's citing George H.W. bush, this type of person, as an example of this. And I do think that kind of era there was more of a cultural norm and a cultural sentiment that, that you should be respectful and you should give back and that because you didn't really earn this, you had an obligation to give back to the community. But then there's no following of any of that. And the idea that George H.W. bush would in any way defend this type of behavior towards fellow Americans, it would be totally anathema. And so he's trying to have these things together, like a defense of the. The white Christian supremacy and also a defense of whatever crass MAGA nastiness, Donald Trump's nastiness. And he's trying to unite those ideas. And it's just like it doesn't work. They're fundamentally at odds with each other.

[Bill Kristol]

I'm glad I got you to go on this rant on the book. That's actually a very important point. I mean, Hexath Attack blocks the promotion to general officers of various women and minorities because of meritocracy. But they also, the MAGA types advance himself vaguely. Remember, they don't like that kind of technocratic meritocracy because that was also very bad because that's globalist, that it's elitist. And this. So there they want to go back further to sort of white America of 1927 or 1935 or something like that. But then I thought they were. Now they're for meritocracy, but they're not really from meritocracy. Yeah. What it comes down to is therefore, white America run by them.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, run by them. Run by them. And that they can, you know, hand out, you know, kind of like a spoil system. I can throw you where they want to take things back to Expedia.

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[Tim Miller]

it's a segregated America with a spoil system. I don't even know how to transition to this. So we'll just going to do it. There's this Washington Post article about Tulsi Gabbard's guru. The gentleman's name is Chris Butler. He goes by Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa. I'm just going to call him Guru Chris. He's a white guy from Hawaii. And it's insane. Tulsi's whole career he was writing memos and giving dictates to her about what she should say and do. Her parents run this cult. She was part of it. It's kind of a spin off of Hinduism. It's sort of rude to the Hindus, I think, to say that. But like, that's how they. That's what they claim it. As this reporter at the Washington Post, John Swain, showed to him, there was a member of the group who became estranged from the cult because she was trying to protect a kid that was a runaway from. From, you know, some. One of the families. It was abuse or whatever. And then the cult came after her. And so she found in her archives, like all these memos and these emails between Guru Kris himself isn't on the emails, but like he has an intermediary that is sending stuff to Tulsi among the things being said to her. Syria is the subject of many of the memos, including one from August 16th that documented tactical advice on preventing the United States from ousting Bashar Al Assad. So he was a big pusher of Tulsi's pro Assad stance. He would send through talking points for TV hits. They looked through the talking points that were sent. And then Tulsi's remarks in 32 TV interviews and on 24 occasions, she used the language in the memos basically verbatim. In the other eight instances, she used different words but promoted basically the same ideas. There are a million other examples. You really should read the whole story. It's insane. But I just bring it up in the context of. Of this person was the Director of National Intelligence and she was apparently under the sway of a cult leader the whole time. So I don't know if that makes you feel good about how you sleep at night. Maybe Bill Pulte's looking good by comparison all of a sudden.

[Bill Kristol]

That's why I say maybe it's why our intelligence wasn't that great actually about Iran and its capabilities and what would happen and so forth. Yeah, Bill Pulte. So it's like, you go out of the frying pan into the fire. We either have a cult leader, you. Someone who's taking orders from a cult leader, or we have a totally more standard corrupt henchman. You know, it's really. Again, that's. That is sort of Trump world, too, right? Where it's like the. You know, either they're crazy or they're just corrupt.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's sort of like you're either, like, genuinely crazy, which maybe seems like the case here, or, like, corrupt and then on the take, or, you know, just like a total phony striver who, like, saw the opportunity to get close to power and, like, this is your chance to get on the train.

[Bill Kristol]

Or just have the personality and character of a really creepy authoritarian bully who likes making people's lives miserable. There are quite a lot of them around, I would say, too.

[Tim Miller]

That's a great point.

[Bill Kristol]

We shouldn't forget them.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we should do a full character sketch. A lot of interesting stuff happening around the world with world leaders. We'll just do a little Carmen Sandiego. What's happening around the world with you, Bill? You wrote about what was happening in the UK for morning shots. Keir Starmer is Alfred today. What are your takeaways?

[Bill Kristol]

Fifth British Prime Minister to leave in 10 years. Now leaving. I guess he's going to stay a month or two for transition. That Brexit thing didn't work out so well. And I don't know, I am struck. I mean, I remember this in 2016. I don't know if you felt this, that when Brexit won, it was right at this time of year, 10 years ago tomorrow, I think by three or four points was close, but still, I had this moment of premonition of, oh, my God, it happened there, it's going to happen here. And part of this was driven by my memory of the late 70s. Thatcher won in 79. She was such a outsider. People have sort of forgotten this. I mean, she was the first British. First female British Prime Minister ever. But also, you know, she'd been a minor figure in the Conservative Party. He sort of toppled the established leadership. Then she had to beat Labor. She did that in a big upset after they had a very miserable winter in 79. And so she won. And I remember sort of thinking as a young, kind of Reaganite Republican type by then, you know, if she could do it there, we could do it here. And there was. I mean, Thatcher's victory kind of was both a harbinger of Reagan, but also A bit of a encouragement, I'd say, to those of us who wanted a change from Carter. And I kind of feel like Brexit helped Trump, you know, don't you think it sort of.

[Tim Miller]

In retrospect, yes. I wish I could say that I also had that premonition. I probably would be smart for me to lie and pretend like I did,

[Bill Kristol]

but I did not.

[Tim Miller]

I was just like, oh, the fucking Europeans, like, stepping on their own dicks again. I don't know. That's where I was at. I'm on it. So I guess little egg on my face on that one one, since it did come our way afterwards. But yeah, I don't know, I thought saw it more in the vein of our friend Stan Voyger likes to tweet the British experiment and self government continues. And I kind of feel more. Felt more that way about it. But I agree with all that and I think that, you know, taking the lens back, the degree of dysfunction since Brexit and like, the problems that have come are really telling. And I think that honestly, in Europe here, like, they're like anything else, like you can have access in anything. So they're like legitimate critiques of some of the immigration rules and policies. But it's like the idea that it's the skeleton key to fixing everything I think continues to bear out that it's not the case. But I was more struck about a different element of Starmer being pushed out, which was kind of the Biden parallels a little bit. Just like, I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in everything that's happening domestically in the uk, but directionally he's kind of fine. I don't know. I mean, the cost of living issues in the UK are really, really bad, particularly in London, and I've got friends over there and it's like tough even for middle, upper middle class people. It's like the cost of living issues are really bad if you're in London in particular. But Starbuck did some basic reforms. They're in a really shitty financial situation and people are like, well, he did too much austerity. On the other hand, it's like, well, they hadn't done austerity. Like, who knows, this is kind of an unfalsifiable thing. But, like, who knows what the bond markets would have done? And that could have, like, you know, they could have ended up in a hyperinflation place where costs were even worse than they are anyway. They've got problems over there. But, like, the idea that Keir Starmer has like the popularity of lower popularity than Trump here is a little bit kind of hard for me to process. And I get he's a little bit of a, what's a British word? Like a little bit of a milk sop or something. You know, America become a little bit of a wet noodle. I don't know, like the degree of unhappiness. My guess is that they'll probably end up with six prime ministers in 12 years. I guess is where I'm coming from.

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[Tim Miller]

I don't think that the replacement's going to solve their problems. They've got some big issues over there. Why don't we just keep popping around Europe? I'm fascinated by what's happening with Maloney. And this is I wish that there wasn't so much craziness in our country because one of my visions for the podcast had Kamala One was going to be like one or two days a week. We'll learn about something together. And I was like, I'd love to do a deep dive on Maloney and just understand what's happening. It's hard to tell the things that overlap with my interests. Trump, she's been surprisingly good. She's been surprisingly good on Ukraine. She stood up to him on the Iran war. Now we have this recent kerfuffle where Trump, I guess, said that she was begging to be in a picture with him and created an international incident. And now the Italians are no longer coming for a visit to America and she's popping off on him about how Italy's strong and she's going to protect Italy's interests. So she keeps doing some surprising things for somebody that when she came in was kind of pitched as like an Italian orbon. And I think domestically not good for gays. And like there are other things that are not great. And so anyway, I still might do this anyway in this case because I've become so obsessed with Meloni. People might have to deal with having one Melanie episode at some point over the course of the next few months. But it's pretty interesting what we've seen from her.

[Bill Kristol]

You should do an episode because I need to learn a lot more. I mean, I'd like to say this, but this is based on like very little knowledge. Acknowledge that this. You could start off as a populist nationalist with some pretty creepy associates. Maybe you yourself aren't quite as bad and maybe this is the sort of the good story, you know, the happy way it can be. You can work out, you know, you can end up okay. Some things that one doesn't like in policy terms and stuff, but not. But a decent agenda in terms of Ukraine and in terms of fighting Trump. And also not really authoritarian, I don't think at home in this sense of. Or corrupt. Just conservative in a sort of old fashioned way, maybe with touches of intolerance, maybe to some groups, but not real authoritarianism. I don't know. Maybe this is ridiculous on my part. This would be the combination of Magyar, who was after all part of Orban's party, Meloni. Maybe there's a way back for parts of Europe and maybe for people here in the US we need a Maloney here. So we have. Who's the Republican Maloney?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And again, without overstaying the Maloney part of this, when people had asked me this would be like years ago when I was doing my book tour, because at this point this is kind of a ridiculous question, but I'll get the question a lot, which is like, do you think the Republican Party can come back to something that you could support or something that you think would be healthy? And my answer was always that the classical liberal elements of the Republican Party are gone. Look more like a European right party, like in the European continent than we've had these kind of outlier parties in the anglosphere in the U.K. canada, here, Australia, where you have more parties that are more of the free markets, free people, less of the blood and soil nationalism of that sort of stripe. And I was like, I think that that's over. And so I think that like the best case scenario I said that you could hope for would be like a Boris Johnson type, like kind of one of the Brexit type. Right. From the Conservative Party folks, who is like a little populist and a little rough around the edges, but like not fundamentally like wanting to turn the country into a dictatorship, you know, And I do. And maybe now that we've gone a little bit further down the path, that is even a little optimistic. Like maybe the Milani model is more optimistic, I don't know. But like that, that's what I do think is not the good outcome in the sense that I'm going to vote for Republicans again anytime in the foreseeable future, but the outcome that we're not an existential threat to the country anymore. If you have some kind of right populist that also is at least in touch with basic reality and wants to be a positive influence on the world. Maybe not aggressively, maybe not an active influence on the world, but it is not trying to be actively harmful. I don't know. And to that extent, maybe that's how the Maloney story is relevant here.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, the one thing, again, if I knew more, be more intelligent on this, I mean, one thing that I think has happened, though that does happen in Europe is the EU constrains someone like Melody.

[Tim Miller]

That's true.

[Bill Kristol]

Constrained Orban, but not so much. But in a way it did ultimately constrain him, I would say, and it probably helped defeat him. And the guardrails here have to be internal on Trump. They can be a little bit external. Someone like Maloney pushing back doesn't hurt, actually. And there are people in the U.S. the U.S. not that most people know who she is, but you know, kind of vague sense of, well, he, he's even alienating the more right wing types in Europe, you know, or the more sane, the sane version of the right wing types in Europe. So anyway, I think the EU turns out to be a positive force there that we don't have here. But the degree to which Trump just pick up on earlier conversation for one second, I mean, really, who are his allies now? His allies are literally the worst dictators, period. And the, you know, most corrupt Gulf states, basically. And, and he doesn't have Melody, he doesn't have the conservative prime minister of Japan. He doesn't have Kind of anyone who's a vaguely recognizable normal.

[Tim Miller]

So good, so good.

[Bill Kristol]

So good.

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[Bill Kristol]

Conservative leader in a democracy. He has only autocrats or aspiring autocrats or corruption cheeks

[Tim Miller]

and he's about to get some more new allies. That's the other place I just wanted to go. And around the world things are not great in Latin America. We've had a series of elections in south and Central America where it's like there's a funny meme going around where it's like all Latin American elections are on the one hand it's like socialist school teacher who wants to redistribute money. It's like right wing uber fascist Cardillo. And then it's like socialist schoolteacher 49.999% like right wing caudillo 50.0001% and that's like every election. And it's like been true in Peru even though that election I don't think it's called they're doing California style counting down in Peru and then in Colombia over the weekend. And the other alarming thing I did just want to flag is Colombia President Gustavo Petro says that Israel stole the election he was not running as his successor is on kind of more the socialist side. The software was comp. He says the only entity in the world capable of doing that is the state of Israel. And I do think it's important to bring this up because we're simultaneously processing through a world where there's some legitimate complaints about Israel and their actions on the world stage way that they're encouraging Trump to get into this stupid war. There also is a serious amount of Israel derangement syndrome out there and like the fact that the Colombia. Well does he believe This, I don't know. Does he just. He just wants to incite their supporters against Israel. Believes that it's something to gain social media clout. Has something he posted on social media. I don't know. But not great sign about what's going on down there in Colombia. The guy who wins is like no political experience. Did AI ads with him as a tiger and I mean, it was like, Hector Mountain Dew Camacho of Colombia is now going to be the president of Colombia. And the losing socialist president said it was rigged by Israel. So not a lot to get excited about there.

[Bill Kristol]

I agree with that.

[Tim Miller]

Do you want to close with some World Cup? You said you were feeling the spirit of Scotland.

[Bill Kristol]

The World Cup's been impressive and I think a good counterpoint to Trump and to Trumpism and to Trump's attempt to hijack the 250th anniversary. I feel like the World cup captures the spirit of American life. Liberal, liberal. American patriotism. Liberal in the broad sense. Just say American patriotism. That complicated of a kind of healthy patriotism where you root for your country, but you're also enjoying it and you're. You're friendly with the fans from the other. Mostly the fans from the other countries. And you're, you know, you're learning about the host country. At the same time, it's a kind of globalist liberal patriotism, which is what American patriotism is and should be and has been and indeed still is. Because look at the reception they're getting here. People really are being very. Are enjoying it. I think the cities are enjoying hosting it. They're enjoying it. Enjoying hosting the. The practice sites for the teams. People are getting. I myself, not a big World cup fan. I haven't been that interested in soccer in the last few decades. And I kind of got into it. I was in Boston last week and the, the Scott, the Scots were there and they. That was really something. I mean, everyone was talking about them and you could see them everywhere and they were drinking out every bar. You know, they were emptying out the bars and so forth. And they lost, unfortunately, Friday night at Foxborough. But they could make it for the first time. Time. And I think they've never made the knockout round. They've never gotten past the elimination round, which we're now in the group. The group round. And so maybe everyone's rooting for them, right? Are we rooting for the little countries? Curacao. It's kind of. I find it kind of. I've kind of gotten into it. It's kind of watching the games is sometimes a little boring. But the, the idea of the World cup has been, has been sort of invigorating and I think somewhat heartening.

[Tim Miller]

I'm struggling to get into it, but I don't have a lot of free time on my hands. And so there's a lot of passing and I, I support everybo. Is very excited about it. I will tie it back to my obsessive hatred of JD Vance though, to close, which is. I do think that what we've seen from the World cup is a direct attack on his claim that in order to support American social cohesion we need to stop immigration. Cause that's this argument that he's making as far, that's when he tries to make the oh, I'm a benevolent anti immigrant leader. I'm not one of these bad racists that everybody's making me out to be. One of the arguments that he makes is one of these high minded sniffingism own farts arguments. It's like, you know, it's just you have so much immigration in a country so quickly, it harms the cohesion. You know, we can only be socially cohesive with people that look like us and sound like us and you know, go to the same church that I just started going to two minutes ago. Right. That's the only way to have social cohesion. And it seems like we've had a ton of social cohesion actually with all the visitors from around the world and the Japanese and the from the Netherlands, that match we talked about last week. And people from everywhere, Cape Verde and Scotland and everyone's kind coming and they're going into our cities or some of the small towns, I forget which country went to Chattanooga, but one of the teams was based in Chattanooga and everyone. And again Lawrence, Kansas was hosting another team. Small towns, big cities, they're welcoming in people from around the world, getting along, enjoying each other's company, having camaraderie. Seems like the social cohesion is just fine. Seems like maybe the Vice President of the United States smearing people and making out up lies about people based on their nation of origin and their, their, their race is, is, is maybe what is harming the social cohesion? Just one man's opinion. That's the podcast for today. Thank you to Bill Crystal. We'll have more JD Vanced Arrangement syndrome next Monday. On next Monday's show. Who knows what kind of offenses he will inflict on the human spirit between now and then. In the meantime, I think we got a new guest coming tomorrow. Looking forward to it. We'll see you all then. Bye. Bill should not prove SP. The Borg Podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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