Tom Nichols: Trump's Trashy 250 Celebration

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast

Episode Title: Tom Nichols: Trump's Trashy 250 Celebration
Date: June 25, 2026
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Tom Nichols (Staff Writer at The Atlantic, Professor Emeritus at the U.S. Naval War College)

---

Episode Overview

This episode features Tim Miller and Tom Nichols in a lively, candid analysis of recent political events, focusing on Donald Trump’s "Great American State Fair" speech, the politicization and purges within the military and justice system, the latest from Congress on war powers, and ongoing corruption concerns tied to Trump’s orbit. As always, the conversation mixes irreverence, pointed critique, and a defense of liberal democracy—plus a healthy dose of gallows humor on the state of U.S. politics.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump's “Great American State Fair” Speech: A "Trashy" 250th Anniversary Kickoff

• Nichols' Reaction: Nichols labels the event and Trump’s speech as deeply "trashy," lamenting its lack of gravitas, historical understanding, and patriotism:
  • “He took this thing that could have been grandiose… and made it all about me, me, me…” (03:16)
  • Critiques Trump's inability to grasp the difference between patriotism (love of country for its core values) and nationalism (tribal superiority).
• Historical Context Lost: Nichols opens with the story of George Washington’s humility—how he simply called himself a "citizen," contrasting this with Trump’s egocentrism.
• Memorable Takedown:
  • “I think it was trashy... It was just trashy. And his speech was small.” (03:16)
• Speech Oddities: Mocks Trump’s attempts at being "elevated," like the invented phrase “storied alleys of Boston” and his odd invocation of “streets of Philadelphia,” sarcastically referencing its association with the Bruce Springsteen song about AIDS (05:13).
• Grand Theme: Trump, unlike the Founders, cannot conceptualize civic virtue or shared citizenship—it's purely about personal aggrandizement.

2. Contrasting Visions of Patriotism and the State Fair’s Culture War Overtones

• Clips Highlight: Tim Miller plays audio from the state fair, particularly Sean Duffy, who praises military band members over “libtards that canceled on us” (11:59). Duffy also bemoans the emptiness of social media-driven fame—ironic, Miller and Nichols point out, given Duffy’s reality TV background.
• Biting Irony:
  • Nichols: “The guy who… gets his start on the real world, you know, get rich quick schemes and shortcuts and social media… do you people have no sense of self awareness? No concept of irony? None.” (12:49)
• Mock Biblical Reference: Nichols riffs, “‘Dear God, please don’t let me be like the libtards.’ That’s a famous passage in the Bible…” (13:35)
• Loss of Simple Civic Joy: Nichols recalls the pride of carrying a blue passport in the Soviet era, “And instead you get, ‘Oh, stupid libtards who canceled on us.’” (14:14)

3. The “Great American Experiment” Documentary

• Nichols discusses his participation in a new Netflix docuseries marking the 250th American anniversary, noting its bipartisan panel—Ted Cruz and Kamala Harris to Hillary Clinton and Mike Pence. The project aims to present a richer, nobler view of the American story.
  • Notable quote: “Ted Cruz says some stuff in this documentary that you lean back and you go, ‘Oh, yeah, I remember when Ted Cruz wasn’t awful.’” (10:09)

4. Purges and Politicization in the Military and Federal Agencies

• Department of War Firings: Coverage of Pete Hegseth firing rising Army star Gen. C.D. Donahue; more broadly, a continuing Trumpist purge across military and security agencies, often targeting those not loyal to Trump or his inner circle.
• Nichols: “I would say this is the worst politicization of the US Military... This is the worst attack on civil military relations that I think has ever occurred and the damage is significant.” (20:59)
• Historical Digressions: Nichols gives context on the evolution of U.S. military leadership, from state militia elections to meritocratic promotions.
• The Flu Shot Debacle: Hegseth cancels military flu shot requirements, causing an outbreak that hurts readiness. Nichols skewers the anti-science pose as performative “sucking up” to the MAGA base.
  • “Pete Hegseth knows this. Pete Hegseth is a grown man who went to Princeton University. This was sucking up to the president, to MAGA world.” (24:57)

5. Congressional Dysfunction: War Powers, Rand Paul, and Bill Cassidy’s Showdown

• War Powers Act Flip-Flop: Senate confusion over war powers votes to restrain Trump in Iran. Notably, Rand Paul reverses vote when it finally matters, claiming to trust Trump’s negotiations.
  • Miller: “Principled libertarian Rand Paul… now flipped his vote because he takes Donald Trump at his word that he doesn’t want to do any more war.” (28:26)
  • Nichols suggests there’s a hypothetical libertarian argument for Paul’s move but ultimately calls it “craven.”
• Cassidy vs. Trump: Senator Bill Cassidy stands up to Trump in an intra-GOP confrontation:
  • Cassidy: “He did not particularly care for my comments. Raised his voice. I lost my temper.” (35:00)
  • Miller is skeptical of Cassidy’s late-stage backbone, sarcastically referencing his Irish temper: “An Irish temper you would think would have flared one other time against Donald Trump in the intervening five years.” (35:20)
• Institutional Atrophy: Nichols laments congressional abdication of oversight and constitutional duty: “The whole Article One branch seems to have, you know, gone to Disney World.” (33:32)
• Senate Elimination: Miller jokes: “Should we just eliminate the Senate? Thoughts?”

6. Iran War, Spending, and the Corruption Web

• Trump’s Iran War Whiplash: Nichols details Trump’s abrupt pivot from demanding maximalist military victory to seeking a hasty exit, requesting billions to clean up after a misbegotten campaign.
  • “He basically treated the Iran war like a failed casino... Sell the furniture, fire all these people, get us out, demolish it, and then we will never speak of it again. And that’s what he’s doing.” (43:10)
• MAGA Corruption Normalized: Miller and Nichols mock the flagrant cronyism, from Marco Rubio's Gulf junket (and presence of Tiffany Trump’s husband at diplomatic lunches) to Jared Kushner’s $5 billion windfall from Gulf states while U.S. taxpayers are soaked for $88 billion in war costs.
  • “I think I'm less astonished at the corruption than I am at the casual way that... this is Watergate on steroids once a day.” (48:09)
  • “The security of the United States is at stake here. And you're sending two guys… that don't know which way is up...” (50:35)

7. Rapid-Fire Silly Topics

• Tulsi Gabbard’s DNI Stint & Guru Chris: Nichols deems Gabbard unqualified, jokes that her ignorance limited the damage she could do. (52:15)
• Reflecting Pool Vandalism: Miller teasingly demands Nichols’s alibi for the mysterious gash cut into the D.C. landmark—which Nichols denies. (53:41)
• George Conway's Congressional Run: Nichols praises Conway’s effort, bemoans Democrats' suspicion of Never Trumpers; Miller laments lack of a true anti-Trump “impeachment machine” in Congress. (54:04)
• Home Air Conditioning Preferences: The closing exchange is playful, with Nichols proudly admitting to keeping his house at a frigid 67º F, flouting all climate concern:
  • “I like my house cold... I'm very sorry about climate change. And I'm sorry if Miami is going to slide into the ocean... but I won't be around to hear it.” (59:37)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s Speech and Patriotism:
  • “Trump thinks that America is great because he is great, and he made it great.” — Tom Nichols (08:19)
• On Military Purges:
  • “They’re just getting rid of people that make Pete Hegseth and his circle… uncomfortable.” — Tom Nichols (17:53)
• On Institutional Decay:
  • “The whole Congress is just AWOL under these guys.” — Tom Nichols (33:32)
• On Iran Policy:
  • “It’s the ultimate expression of everything that Trump is in terms of his shallow, empty transactionality...” — Tom Nichols (41:29)
• On Chronic Corruption Fatigue:
  • “This is Watergate on steroids once a day. And we've all learned to just say, well…” — Tom Nichols (48:09)
• On Accountability:
  • “Advise is the word in advise and consent. Advise is there on the front end. It’s not consent and regret.” — Tim Miller (36:43)

---

Important Timestamps

• 01:19 – Show start, Tom Nichols introduced as the most frequent guest
• 03:16 – Nichols calls Trump’s July 4th kickoff “trashy”
• 06:44 – Founders’ humility vs. Trump’s egotism
• 11:59–13:30 – Clips from State Fair: Sean Duffy’s culture war jabs; Nichols & Miller skewer the hypocrisy
• 16:11–18:21 – Discussion of military purges and Gen. Donahue’s firing
• 23:56–25:54 – Military flu shot cancellation and outbreak debacle
• 28:26–33:25 – Senate dysfunction, war powers votes, and Rand Paul’s flip
• 35:00–36:02 – Cassidy/Trump confrontation over Iran and congressional oversight
• 39:59–43:10 – Iran war costs, corruption, and Trump’s abrupt reversal
• 44:39–50:35 – Gulf State corruption, Jared Kushner’s $5B windfall, Kushner’s unqualified role
• 52:04–53:32 – Silly stuff: Tulsi, cult rumors, and “mind control”
• 54:04–55:31 – George Conway’s failed congressional run
• 56:09–59:37 – Closing banter on air-conditioning, generational differences, and climate quips

---

Episode Tone and Takeaways

The tone is characteristically irreverent, snarky, and exasperated, yet earnest in its warnings about the corrosion of civic culture, institutions, and norms. With sharp exchanges, historical analogies, and unfiltered opinion, Nichols and Miller drive home the stakes of accepting corruption and authoritarian drift as “normal”—all while finding room for laughs along the way.

For listeners who haven’t tuned in:
This episode offers a dense but entertaining analysis of Trump-era decay, with insider anecdotes, media criticism, deep-dive policy context, and plenty of mix-young-and-old banter.

Transcript

[Advertisement Voice]

Big transfer news today.

[Tom Nichols]

Who's moving me to the couch with Domino's.

[Advertisement Voice]

Best deal ever since they just added stuffed crust.

[Tom Nichols]

Any pizza, any toppings? Now with stuffed crust for 9.99.

[Advertisement Voice]

It's a long term contract with no Release clause.

[Tom Nichols]

Only 9.99. Yeah, that sounds like the move. I'm heading straight to dom.

[Advertisement Voice]

Price is higher for some locations. Excludes Excel and specialty pizzas. Select this offer from 6:15 through 7:26 online only. Size availability varies by crust type. Max 7 topping 6 for Anna New York style crust. Minimum purchase required for prices, participation, delivery area and charges may vary.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

This podcast is sponsored by Made in Cookware. Made in partners with multi generational artisans and some of the world's best chefs to create professional quality cookware, knives and kitchen tools. Their products are trusted in Michelin starred restaurants worldwide and designed to perform just as well in your kitchen. From five ply stainless clad to carbon steel, every piece is built to last and made to actually make you a better cook. Discover award winning [e-mail].

[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back to the show for the 37th time the most decorated guest in the history of the Bulwark Podcast. He was discussing his enlarged prostate with me in the green room. As a staff writer at the Atlantic and professor emeritus at the U.S. naval War College, it's Tom Nichols. How you doing, sir?

[Tom Nichols]

Where's my 37 timers jacket?

[Tim Miller]

I know, 50. I feel like at 50 we got to give you a watch or something.

[Tom Nichols]

All right.

[Tim Miller]

And then I was, I was just curious the other day. I was like who's been on the most? And I put in some names. You've got it. You're. You're the leader of the clubhouse.

[Tom Nichols]

I am honored. And I also as I say with genuinely that I always love doing this because it's the. It's fun because we always have a good time.

[Tim Miller]

Well, we're gonna have some fun. I have for you and it'll be good the whole time. But I have the final topic category on my outline is silly stuff. So we've got plenty of. There's plenty of that and I guess the first topic is silly stuff too. So that's just the nature of where we are in our idiocracy. The great American State Fair. You stayed up for this last night because you're a glutton for punishment. And Jeffrey Culmer as you and some reigns. And he's got a whip. He's Kind of like, yes, Nichols, you're staying up for the great American State Fair speech. And so you did.

[Tom Nichols]

I think it was. I think it was more like, yeah, I'm gonna need you to be staying up. That'd be great.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Did you have a cover sheet on your draft?

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, if you could just file that, that'd be great. No, I mean, I'm. I'm kind of the designated night owl for a lot of stuff, because I am a night owl. And I said, sure, I'm happy to. Also, you know, I have this long history. I kind of pride myself on being a Trump watcher. You know, this. I. I used to live tweet all of his press conferences. So I stayed up and watched it, and it was. I mean, it was trashy.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

The whole.

[Tom Nichols]

The whole business was trashy. And I know that sounds. Oh, that's snooty and elitist, but. No, it was. It. It was. It was just trashy. And his speech was small. That's what I wrote about last night. He took this thing that could have been grandiose. You know, I started with a quote from George Washington. Actually, it wasn't a quote. It was. It was from George Washington's last will and testament. And I think it's really important, as the fourth approaches, for people to know this, that George Washington, in his last. He said, I. George Washington. And he didn't say, you know, father of our country, great guy. He said, a citizen of the United States and lately, president of the same. For him, that was the most important thing. To be this. To be a citizen, you know, and he understood, like, that we were all sharers in this great adventure, this great experiment, and Trump just doesn't understand any of that. He made it all about me, me, me. And I got. I got no tax on tips. And everybody was laughing at us two years ago, and now we're hot. And I totally trashed the Iranians, even though that yesterday the Iranians told us to go suck an egg about nuclear inspections. I'm going to get the vandals who hurt the reflecting pool. I mean, it just went on and on. Tim, as little as I think of Stephen Miller, I don't want to tag him with this speech if it wasn't him, because whoever wrote this, it was a real achievement in crap. But, you know, the few times that Trump tried to be elevated or that he tried to, you know, be presidential, he said things like, from the storied alleys of Boston to the streets of Philadelphia. Okay, first of all, anybody who's lived in Boston. There's no such thing as these storied alleys of Boston. They. They have some stories and we won't tell them.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Tom Nichols]

But to the streets of Philadelphia. I'm sorry, wasn't that a Bruce Springsteen song about a movie about a guy with aids? You know, I mean, it just went on and on. You know, skyscrapers and railroads and Normandy and Saratoga and. But then he would go right back to the really petty, small. You know, look at me. Look what I did. And. And I'll. I'll finish with. With one serious comment, which is that it shows that Trump and his people, they don't understand the difference between patriotism and. And nationalism, that patriotism is love of one's country for itself, for what it is, for its eternal characteristics. Nationalism is. My tribe is better than all other tribes. And that's the only way Trump can conceive of this. He kept saying, we're better than everybody else. We're the hottest, we're the biggest, we're the best. He can't just say, America is worth our loyalty and our love because of the great thing that it is that makes you so proud. To simply say, I'm a citizen of the United States the way George Washington did.

[Tim Miller]

I'm a sucker for that. I'll be cloying for a second. One of the first things, after I finished being a political hack and started doing journalism and writing, one of the first things I wrote about. I wish I'm going from memory now, but it was about how there's a disagreement between Washington and Adams. Adams wanted him to be called something like His Excellency or something. Ridiculous.

[Tom Nichols]

I remember that, but it was something. It started with His Highness, you know, the protector of the American people and their rights, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Tim Miller]

Correct. And Washington's like, no, Mr. President, Mr.

[Tom Nichols]

President will be fine.

[Tim Miller]

And. Yeah. And there is something really moving about that, about what the country is supposed to be and what we should be aspiring to and what the office is supposed to be. That. I mean, it goes without saying. Our president has literally no respect for interest in. Or the opposite. It's kind of surprising to me that he hasn't tried to rename it. Frankly, that might. I hate to give him that idea.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, let's not speak that one into reality. And, you know, just to put in a nice word for Adams. And when Adams was beaten by his worst enemy, who got people to publish stuff about him, like, maybe he's a hermaphrodite, you know, just in case you think Our elections were always nasty.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, mbs, I also think might be a hermaphrodite. I don't know. I just. That's something that I've heard.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna leave that one right where it fell and say, you know, what did he do? He, like all good presidents, he packed up his stuff and he moved out of the White House and he went back to his farm and said, okay, I'm done being president. Thank you very much. I'm gonna. You know, Trump does not understand that. Trump thinks that America is great because he is great, and he made it great. You know, there's a metaphor that I didn't want to use in the piece, but it's. It's sort of like. It's like marriage. You look at your spouse and you say, I love this person because of who he or she is, just because that's the only one for me. This is because it's a wonderful person that I know. Deeply in love. Trump's like the guy who says, you know, my wife's prettier than all those dogs.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Tom Nichols]

You know, well, that, that lasts right up until, you know, you put on a few pounds or you get a few wrinkles. It's this very superficial love of country that says, as long as I'm making it great, then it's worth loving. And when it's not, you know, two years ago, did you love your country? And, you know, they're laughing at us. They're just, you know, one thing that patriots really understand is you don't care if they're. That one of their countries. Think of you. That's. You don't spend your day chewing your nails and saying, what does Russia think about us?

[Tim Miller]

We'll do a plug for you right now on this point. You, I guess, are making an appearance or you're a contributor to a new Netflix series called the American experiment, honoring the250. I'm just going to be candid with people. I'm a little bit bitter about it. You keep getting into all these shows like you're in succession. You're in a Netflix series honoring the. The country's 250. My phone's not ringing. I don't really know what it is. Is it something about your. The way you carry yourself?

[Tom Nichols]

I don't know. I got 20 years on you, though, Tim, so, you know, you got time.

[Tim Miller]

I guess your hair is too dark.

[Tom Nichols]

You got to get some gray.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. I feel like I could be a. You Know, I could bring some wisdom to a documentary about $250, or I could play a bit part in a show. I'm available for bit parts.

[Tom Nichols]

It's a very cool documentary because you're, you know, it has a lot of. There's a lot of folks like me, right? Like, you know, Lindsey Chervinsky, the head of the George Washington Presidential Library. And, you know, Joanne Freeman, a professor. And, you know, there's professors and authors, but there's also, like, Ted Cruz.

[Tim Miller]

Ugh.

[Tom Nichols]

That's Ted Cruz. And then Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris and Mike Pence and Jamie Raskin. And so they really went out of their way to say, listen, we are going to have everybody across the spec, Even people you hate, and they're all going to be talking about the same thing, which is the greatness of the American experiment. And it works. Ted Cruz says some stuff in this documentary that you lean back and you go, oh, yeah, I remember when Ted Cruz wasn't awful.

[Tim Miller]

You're going a little, you know, there's Hollywood on me.

[Tom Nichols]

You know, Mike Pence, of all people, you know, I mean, Mike Pence says these very kind of measured and thoughtful things. Hillary Clinton does not drive you up the wall. You know, Kamala Harris has the Al Gore again.

[Tim Miller]

Jamie Rice, our friend of the pod, now Al Gore.

[Tom Nichols]

So there are all these politicians, you know, as well as a lot of civil rights leaders, you know, talking about the early founding. It's a remarkable group of people. And I was proud to be able to tag along, if anybody's curious, by the way we shot my scenes. It's because the sets are gorgeous. We shot my scenes in a house in Boston and historical landmark, the Prescott House. And it's only five episodes long. And it's a great thing to start the 4th of July season with. So thank you for plugging it, but I was just so proud to be part of it.

[Tim Miller]

Seems like the spirit is a bit in contrast to the other things that we were hearing last night at the Great American State Fair. Our Secretary of transportation took the stage last night. I'm gonna play two different clips from the same remarks. You might notice a contrast. You might notice some tension between the arguments that he's making. Former reality show star Sean Duffy last night. Let's listen.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

A big round of applause for our military band and singers. Way better than those libtards that canceled on us. So much better. Thank you, guys.

[Tim Miller]

Brilliant American spirits there.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

President Trump. Trump will make you famous. Our young people have been lied to. They've been told that they would be fulfilled with hookup culture or some get rich quick scheme, or they could find fame in social media and that fulfill them. But I'll tell you, they found that that's a false promise, that's a lie, and they've sought truth. And in seeking truth, they have gone to church, they've found the holy gospel, they've prayed, and they have found God.

[Tom Nichols]

I'm finding Jesus right now. After that one man I actually said at the time, of all the people to deliver this message, the guy who, you know, gets his start on the real world, you know, get rich quick schemes and shortcuts and social media. I'm like, do you people have no sense of self awareness? No concept of irony? None. President Trump will make you famous.

[Tim Miller]

Didn't you just say, but also fame isn't fulfilling. Also fame isn't fulfilling. Half the country that didn't vote for us, you guys are libtards. But also a nice thing to do is to find God and find God,

[Tom Nichols]

go to church so that you're not like those libtards.

[Tim Miller]

It's just.

[Tom Nichols]

That's a famous passage in the Bible. It's called the Publican's Prayer. Dear God, please don't let me be like the libtards.

[Tim Miller]

What a deep thing.

[Tom Nichols]

It's all show. This is what I meant about Trashy that, you know, instead of getting up and just saying, it's wonderful to be a citizen of the United States and we are blessed. You know, in my younger days, I spent a lot of time going back forth to the old Soviet Union and I don't mean Russia. I mean, you know, the, the evil empire. And man, you, you crossed over a couple of times. I went in through Leningrad and a few times Moscow. The minute you, you disembark, man, you held onto that blue passport with love. You just said, you know, I have something everybody in this country wants and it's one of these. And it. And it's because of this that I can walk freely and go home when I want to and do all these other things. And, you know, it really meant something. And instead you get, oh, stupid libtards who canceled on us. It's like, yeah, that's what being an American's about is being mad at Martina McBride and McBride. Gimme a break.

[Tim Miller]

If you want to know what's really worth your time when it comes to losing weight, skip the guesswork and get weight loss by hims. HIMSS offers access to an affordable range of FDA approved GLP1 medications that now include the WeGovy pill and the WeGovy pen plus lifestyle tips to support you along the way with WeGovy at hims lose up to 20% more of your body weight when combined with diet and exercise. It helps you regulate your appetite and eat less, so success is within reach. Plus, WeGovy is the first ever GLP1 pill for weight loss, so there are no needles needed. Thank God. You know I'm scared of needles. Extremely scared. Through hims, everything happens online. You'll connect with a licensed provider who will determine if treatment is right for you. If prescribed, your medication is delivered right to your door. No insurance necessary. Ready to reach your goals? Visit himss.comthebullwork to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you that's H I M S.comthebullworkhims.com TheBullWork Weight loss by HIMSS is not available in all 50 states. WeGovy is a registered trademark of Novo Nordisk. As to get started and learn more, including important safety information, wegovy clinical study information restrictions, visit HIMSS.com I want to move on to some news I haven't got to this week from the Department of War. It's interesting. We've changed the name to Department of War. Started one war, lost it.

[Tom Nichols]

I shouldn't laugh at that, but I mean, there is a.

[Tim Miller]

It's what happened.

[Tom Nichols]

It's what happened. Yep.

[Tim Miller]

There's some purges. More purges. There's been a bunch of purges happening. The one this week. Your colleagues at the Atlantic broke the story. Pete Egseth fired General Chris C.D. donahue, widely seen as one of the Army's rising stars. He's expelled from the Pentagon. He's the last man in Afghanistan, literally the last soldier on the ground in Afghanistan. This is the latest in a long list of purges. And he kind of started with the DEI purges. If you're black or a woman, you were going to be on the chopping block unless you paid homage to Donald Trump. And now I guess he's trying to get rid of anybody that is, you know, threatening his sense of self. Yeah.

[Tom Nichols]

Yes, somebody, anybody scares him. There was some talk that this actually came from the, the new chief of staff of the Army. Nobody knows. But, you know, there's no explanation. And you know, some of the people that are twisting themselves into, into pretzels here, they tried to say, well, hey, nobody complained when Obama fired McChrystal. Well, yeah, because McChrystal gave an interview to Rolling Stone where he crapped all over the commander in chief you know, even McChrystal kind of knew that he'd stepped on a. On a landmine there. I mean, that happens. You go on, you're in a magazine, and you dump on the commander in Chief. You're probably not going to have a long career ahead of you.

[Tim Miller]

Much love to the late Michael Hastings, who wrote that. Great guy.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, right. That's. Yes. I was at the War College at the time. And, you know, what was the lesson that we were all discussing? You know, don't haul off on the commander in Chief in front of a reporter. If you're a uniformed officer, probably not smart, but no one's explaining this other than, well, you know, he was in Afghanistan. Yes, but he wasn't in charge of it. He wasn't. The things that he's been accused of by some of the people online turns out not to be true. As you said, it's. They're just getting rid of people that make Pete Hegseth and his circle. You're either in Pete's clubhouse or you're not. And I think, you know, guys like Donahue probably intimidate him just by existing.

[Tim Miller]

There are a lot of good people we've got serving the military and the country has survived worse than this. But I think it's kind of an underrated challenge if we get through this period, is the degree and the scale of the purges across the various security and military elements of the government is pretty severe. I mean, we've talked about a bunch on the pod about the FBI. Obviously, DOJ has had a lot of purges happening at the Department of War. It's a little challenging to cover because they are not being transparent about it. You know, the people who have gotten purged in not every case, but in most cases don't want to talk about it. Right. Because they've got legal challenges to the administration. And so it's like a little bit hard to wrap your head around it. But when you talk, like when I have Carol Lanig on who, like, really is deeply reported inside doj, I mean, when you talk to people who are, who know these institutions, it's pretty bad. The scale of the purging and the

[Tom Nichols]

military, just to add to that the military, obviously there's a cultural norm which says, look, if the president and the SecDef don't want me to be a four star anymore, I don't talk about that because there's nothing illegal or improper about that. Right. I mean, so I'm not going to do that. I think people getting fired at DOJ and FBI and you know, ODNI and places like that, they have court cases because there are, you know, speaking as a former federal employee, they do have rights and protections. They can't, most of them can't just be, you know, fired with a snap of the fingers. You know, it's funny when you talk about purges, but I think that the problem's going to have to go in the other direction. You know, when these folks finally leave government, if the Democrats have the discipline and the wherewithal, they're going to have to say now how many of the people that are embedded in the justice system. You have to go, right. You know that there's going to have to be this kind of thorough review of cronyism, of people who were put there by, you name it, Cash Patel or Pete Hegseth, whoever it was. And it's going to take a long time to recover from this because the one thing we had, and the Trump people don't want to admit this, but that the system actually worked pretty well as a nonpartisan meritocratic system. Yes, of course it made mistakes. Every, every personnel system does. There are people have made it to the heads of corporations that are morons who have run companies into the ground. But by and large, you know, the

[Tim Miller]

non partisan Altman never really did anything. Now he's running the most important company in the world. So it's like he had the failed foursquare competitor can happen, you know.

[Tom Nichols]

But I would say this is the worst politicization of the US Military. I mean, I don't want to say since the days when we elected our officers in the Civil War, but certainly in the modern era, since the emergence of a modern American military. This is the worst attack on civil military relations that I think has ever occurred and the damage is significant.

[Tim Miller]

How did the election of officers work? War professor well, because remember, a lot

[Tom Nichols]

of these were state militias. It was a kind of a patchwork, right? I mean, you know, the 71st New Hampshire Volunteers showed up, you know, who's your captain? Jed over there.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Tom Nichols]

You know, by the way, this is one of the things just to go back to George Washington, Washington really didn't like the militias. When he, he gets to Cambridge in July of 1775 and he looks around at the New Englanders who are like, right, the bunch of, yeah, that's our captain. You know, Bob's our captain over there. And Washington looks, of course, Washington is a lifetime British officer. You know, he's very proper guy and he looks around and he says, These New Englanders are trash. They're ruffians. They're. I can't. I can't make an army out of this. And a year later, after he fights with them side by side, he says, give me New England men any day. That's where it comes from. I mean, you know, Lincoln was, you know, chosen by the men to lead them. I think in the. Drawing a blank. I think the Blackfoot wars. But if my history is wrong here, I apologize. And that changes over time as the United States, after the Civil War, you know, becomes a country of a single army, a single navy. But even that. Where have you seen the movie Glory? Remember the movie Glory?

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Yeah.

[Tom Nichols]

You know, it's like, well, my father spoke to the governor, so I'm going to get command of the 54th Massachusetts. Because Governor Andros, blah, blah, blah, you know, that that's how it was done. One of the things that's made the American military great is that we overcame that right. That we were promoting officers because of talent, not because of family ties or nobility or royalty or titles or whatever. And now we're going back to it. Now we're appointing people because they make Pete Hegseth comfortable.

[Tim Miller]

The only disappointing thing to me about the manner in which Pete Hegseth has changed how the Department of War is run is.

[Tom Nichols]

You have to say it that way, too, right? Department of War.

[Tim Miller]

You do. Is that he did not get the flu himself. Because they're scared of vaccines now because of COVID Nonsense. They did not require flu shots for the military. Do you want to guess what happened, Tom? Do you know? Have you heard what happened after they didn't require flu shots this year?

[Tom Nichols]

Well, Sir Bedivere, I am not wise in your ways of science. I assume that many of them weighed less than a duck and that they suddenly had small dwarves living in the pits of their stomach. Of course there was an outbreak.

[Tim Miller]

Of course they.

[Tom Nichols]

And, you know, look, it's not funny. I mean, flu is a nasty business, even for young, healthy people. There's a reason you get shots for it. But let's point out the bigger problem, that when you get 220 people in a military unit, a military community getting sick, you've just taken a hit to readiness. You have a problem. You have 220 people and their families that are now, you know, this. This is why they get vaccinated in the first place.

[Tim Miller]

I thought it was because Fauci made them do it. And it was the woke scientist. It was Fauci.

[Tom Nichols]

It was the Fauci mind Trick for readiness. These are the vaccines you're looking for.

[Tim Miller]

That makes sense.

[Tom Nichols]

The real infuriating part of this. Pete Hegseth knows this. Pete Hegseth is a grown man who went to Princeton University. This was sucking up to the president, to MAGA world. This is part of. Look, I'm as crazy as all of you. Don't fire me. Look at what a brave thing I'm going to do. And look at all the cool feedback I'm going to get online and from the podcasters and the influencers that I canceled this jab. This. This poisonous vaccine. Well, okay, then a couple hundred people get sick. Next thing you know, very quietly, we're all going to start getting the vaccine again. And it only took one outbreak. Somebody died. I don't want to say. I'm not a doctor. I don't know if they died from something else or because they got the flu, but we know that well over 200 people got sick. So we ran a science experiment on a bunch of volunteers. On a bunch of Air Force volunteers.

[Tim Miller]

This sounds like a lot of hooey fooey from a professor kind of this. You and your expertise. I don't know. I mean, it could have been random, right?

[Tom Nichols]

Like I said.

[Tim Miller]

Or maybe Bill Gates put the virus in the water at the Air Force base in order to create this narrative

[Tom Nichols]

to try to turn them all into gay frogs.

[Tim Miller]

Have you thought about that? I have. Well, I have.

[Tom Nichols]

Usually at about 3am After a bottle of scotch. Yes. Maybe they had an imbalance of bodily humors and we just ran out of leeches.

[Tim Miller]

Could it be?

[Tom Nichols]

I mean, you know, the strategic leech supply has been very low.

[Tim Miller]

Well, we get it through the Persian Gulf, so that's a problem. It's been stuck in Oman.

[Tom Nichols]

Do you know that I would walk into Soviet and Russian pharmacies in the 90s and the 80s and 90s and they would have jars of live leeches.

[Tim Miller]

Really?

[Tom Nichols]

I kid you not.

[Tim Miller]

That's scary. That gives me the heebie jeebies.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, no, actually, I'll say one thing again, because I'm learned in the ways of science. There are certain things that leeches actually do, like for certain kinds of cuts and abrasions where they sort of kill off dead skin and all that stuff.

[Tim Miller]

I'd rather have the dead skin.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah. Personally, I'll take a pass on the leeches, but I will tell you that I have seen in a. In a pharmacy, jars of live leeches.

[Tim Miller]

Leeches. Ivermectin.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

This podcast is sponsored by Made in Cookware made in partners with multigenerational artisans and some of the world's best chefs to create professional quality cookware, knives and kitchen tools. Their products are trusted in Michelin starred restaurants worldwide and designed to perform just as well in your kitchen. From five ply stainless clad to carbon steel, every piece is built to last and made to actually make you a better cook. Discover award winning [e-mail] youm work hard

[Advertisement Voice]

to stay healthy and want the freedom to make the best decisions for yourself and your family. So why does healthcare still feel expensive and frustrating? CrowdHealth is a different approach built for entrepreneurs, families and independent minded people who want a simpler way to pay for healthcare. More than 28,000 members have already joined and over 40,000 medical bills have already been funded. No restrictive networks, no corporate middlemen, just real people helping each other. Learn [e-mail] that's joincrowdhealth.com should we talk

[Tim Miller]

about Marco or do you want to talk about the war First? I guess we'll talk about the war, then we'll come back to Marco and Oman. We've had two war powers votes. Congress is so stupid. You used to work in the Senate. This is why I never worked in Congress. It's just exhausting. It's exhausting. They have a war powers vote two days ago now and it passes 50 to 48 in the Senate, limiting Donald Trump's war powers, something they should have done at the beginning of the stupid war in Iran. But they finally got the votes to do it thanks to Louisiana Senator Bill Cassidy, who we'll get to in a second. But that for some technical Roberts rule of order reason that I don't care to understand, was not the real vote. There was another vote that had to happen the next day for the war powers resolution to actually get to the President's desk. And on that vote, Rand Paul flipped. Principled libertarian Rand Paul, who had voted for the war powers resolution every time up until the one time that account is now flipped his vote because he takes Donald Trump at his word that he doesn't want to do any more war.

[Tom Nichols]

So I'm going to do a totally uncharacteristic thing and I'm going to give Rand Paul the benefit of the doubt. What he said was now the President's negotiating, I'm going to get out of his way and not not saddle him with this vote. Now that combat operations seem to be over and that he is in the middle of negotiation and you know there's an Argument to be made.

[Tim Miller]

Look, you're talking about Iran's against the war. Wouldn't he want to saddle him? Wouldn't the point. Was he the point because of the point. Because what you're saddling them from doing is bombing Iran again and getting and extending the stupid fucking war that Rand Paul says he's not for.

[Tom Nichols]

Okay, but if you're trying to negotiate and get a better deal, you don't want to do things over the President's shoulder that tells the enemy, by the way, we're going to yank his leash at any moment.

[Tim Miller]

I think this is one of these things. It's kind of like we are helping the President.

[Tom Nichols]

Okay? And I'm, and I'm going you that,

[Tim Miller]

you know, by putting some, sometimes the President needs some bumpers put on his impulses, you know.

[Tom Nichols]

But Tim, I can't be a hypocrite about this. In 1990.

[Tim Miller]

Well, you can. Was the President Donald Trump in 1990? Who was, who was the president 1990? It's been a minute. George H.W. bush.

[Tom Nichols]

He's a guy. See, I can, I can do the impressions. That's why I get on Netflix. Except that I always end up sending like Dana Carvey. Ah, broke bread with the man. Not a Hitler. Thousand points of my boss, John Heinz wanted to. He said, wouldn't it help Bush if we just invoke the law of the land, the War Powers act, so that everything's kind of legally, you know, above board. And I said, the War Powers Acts, a really bad piece of legislation. And you don't want to go into this war telling Saddam Hussein ahead of time. We're only coming in for at best, 60 to 90 days. Now, if it had been somebody other than George Bush, I might have said, well, if you really want to restrain the President, you think it's a bad idea. But I said, don't do it. It's probably not constitutional. I still think the War Powers act probably isn't constitutional. So I'm willing to say that Rand Paul actually thought this one over and

[Tim Miller]

said, okay, Rand Paul thought this one over. He is not Tom Nichols, he's Rand Paul. He has voted for this thing every time up until now. Would not that same argument that you're making now that you don't want to limit Trump's optionality have been true a couple of weeks ago, the last time they voted on this.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Hmm.

[Tom Nichols]

You know, that's a good question, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

Thank you, Tom. I appreciate that you're trying to be fair minded. This is why we want to have you on. But I'm sorry, Rand Paul is doing Donald Trump a solid because he doesn't want Donald Trump to bleed about him, I think, or whatever. I don't. I don't know. Or he's got a staffer that wants to get invited to the fucking club that Don Jr started.

[Tom Nichols]

See, this is why I shouldn't do this show. This is because I just walk.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Tom Nichols]

But, you know, as the late Paul Sangas used to say, that's an excellent question. Now, let me evade you. I think there is an argument to be made that the War Powers act, you know, that if you thought Trump was out of control and you wanted to stop him from putting American lives in danger, you triggered the War Powers Act. If you've gotten what you want and basically the war is over and Trump's going to negotiation, I can see where a libertarian, you know, small L libertarian kind of guy says, you know what? I'm not going to get in the President's soup while he's trying to get out of this. I think that's a shaky argument, especially considering that Donald Trump never operates in good faith with the other members of the American government, as Bill Cassidy learned the hard way. So, you know, I mean, do I think it was kind of craven? Yeah, but intellectually I kind of buy it. But like I said, I'm not a huge fan. I think the War Powers act ought to be repealed and replaced to begin with. So that's part of my problem.

[Tim Miller]

Also, the Senate is stupid. We maybe should just eliminate the Senate. Thoughts on eliminating the Senate? What's it doing? Maybe we should just eliminate the Senate.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, the whole, the whole article. One branch seems to have, you know, gone to Disney World. You know, Mike Johnson wasn't. Wasn't it just like yesterday, Mike Johnson said, well, he does what he does. I have other things I do. No, I'm sorry. That's. That is not how the Constitution was written. Like, oh, the President can do whatever he wants, and over here in Congress will, you know, we'll make origami ducks. You know, that's not how it goes. And the whole Congress is just AWOL under these guys. And I hope that the Democrats actually fulfill something like an oversight capacity, you know, if and when, although given, you know, what the Democrats have been up to lately, I'm. I have my doubts there.

[Tim Miller]

But the House Oversight Committee will do great. We love, love Robert Garcia and Suhas. They got their head on straight. Everybody else, I don't know. I don't know about everybody else. Where was I Gonna go with the Iran. Oh, Bill Cassidy, thank you. You can host the show for a second.

[Tom Nichols]

So Cassidy 37 times. I'm practically there.

[Tim Miller]

So Cassidy abucked Trump in the original war powers vote, which didn't count because we had to have a follow up war powers vote because of parliamentary procedure and the parliamentarian and Robert's rules of order. But Donald Trump was still mad that Bill Cassidy bucked him in the vote. That didn't count. And Donald Trump went to the Senate lunch yesterday. He and Bill Cassidy had a confrontation. Apparently it was pretty funny. Let's just listen to how Bill Cassidy describes the confrontation.

[Tom Nichols]

You have not told the American people what's going on. It was supposed to last four weeks. It's lasted four months. Our original objectives have not been achieved and I want to know what's going on. He did not particularly care for my comments. Raised his voice. I lost my temper.

[Tim Miller]

He goes on to talk about how he's Irish and I won't be bullied. He lost his temper, called the President bright. I mean, I don't know. I mean, if he has this Irish temper, it's kind of weird that it didn't show up between 2021 and June 24, 2026. An Irish temper you would think would have flared one other time against Donald Trump in the intervening five years. But happy to see it. I know about the Irish temper.

[Tom Nichols]

Half Irish myself.

[Tim Miller]

Been there, same. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, do we have to hand it to Cassidy? It's good, I guess, that they're yelling at each other. Apparently Donald Trump told him to sit down, he wouldn't call him a lunatic. Called him a lunatic kind of projection.

[Tom Nichols]

The President called the US Senator a lunatic. Now, on the one hand, if you look at the, you know, the life of Kennedy and Johnson and Nixon, presidents have called senators a lot worse than lunatic. And I mean, I'm sure there are senators that have called presidents things a lot worse than brother to do it in the Senate. You know, this is not a couple of guys after hours, you know, arguing over some bourbon and branch water. This is, this is bad. Do you have to hand it to Cassidy?

[Tim Miller]

No, no, I don't think so.

[Tom Nichols]

I don't think so. I mean, he's on his way out the door. I regret my vote for Pete Hegseth and Bobby Kennedy. Well, thanks.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, well, no shit. By the way, Pete Hegseth was a weekend talk show co host. It's like, you can't tell me that this was unforeseeable, that Pete Hegseth would be hiding the ball with you on matters of war and peace. It's just like advise is the word and advise and consent. Advise is there on the front end. It's not. It's not consent and regret. It's advise and consent.

[Tom Nichols]

You got to be honest, though.

[Tim Miller]

You got to be fair.

[Tom Nichols]

Nobody could possibly have known that Robert F. Kennedy was going to have some problematic views about raccoon penises. I think it's the first time in public I've ever said the words raccoon penis.

[Tim Miller]

Penis.

[Tom Nichols]

I don't think I've ever said it privately either.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not sure what other context you would have said it in. This is what happens when you put somebody like Bobby Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy. Can you do a Bobby impression? Can you do it?

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

No.

[Tom Nichols]

And I, you know, the man has a. That's a health problem. So I'm not. I'm not going to make fun of that.

[Tim Miller]

So you also don't make so much fun. Jackson's eye, is that also something you don't make fun of?

[Tom Nichols]

Well, I have lazy eye, too, so

[Tim Miller]

this is kind of worse than that, though. He's got, like a full, like, Quasimodo kind of.

[Tom Nichols]

Mark Hertling the other day had an eye problem, and I said, we're all. We're all looking like Columbo now. We're all doing the Colonel Girl.

[Tim Miller]

Mark Hertling's on the men, though. We love General Hertling. You're right. So that was what happened. Bill Cassidy voted against Trump on a meaningless vote and then yelled at him. Too little, too late. But we appreciate it.

[Tom Nichols]

The thing that gives me hope is, does that mean he might lose? Like, the fact of the matter is, okay, fine. Does it really matter? And you don't have to give it to Bill Cassidy and all that stuff we just said. Right. On the other hand, Trump's not going to get the Save America Act.

[Tim Miller]

No, no, of course he's not.

[Tom Nichols]

And that's, you know, every little bit of tiny nanogram of spine that then cascades out to other issues I think is important.

[Tim Miller]

Totally agree.

[Tom Nichols]

So let them yell at each other. What's on it doesn't matter.

[Tim Miller]

Totally agree. Totally agree with that. He's not going to get the Save America Act. But in a weird way, I'm going to talk about this tomorrow is also impacting this housing bill where Trump is having a temper tantrum over that as well. I've had some feedback that, like, and, you know, I hate to be wrong about this, about how I should have a little More alarm on the Save America Act. My alarm bells are ringing everywhere. This thing isn't fucking fasten. It's just not. It's not happening now.

[Tom Nichols]

I think considering that we're into summer, not in time to really do anything

[Tim Miller]

that even if it passed and potentially in some of these red states, the thing I do come back to is I worry in the Senate. I think the House is a different animal. In the Senate, a lot of the key elections are in places where Republicans control everything. Aforementioned Texas, and the Ken Paxton race. Iowa, Ohio. The other Republicans that are in the state are relatively pre. Kind of Trump Republicans. So maybe not Alaska. So anyway, there's some key Senate states where the Republicans, I think are going to do monkey business. But other than that, I agree with

[Advertisement Voice]

you

[Tim Miller]

just on the war in general. I mean, we've just flogged this horse ad nauseam. But you wrote about the whiplash of Trump's Iran capitulation. The other kind of news item coming from the Hill related to the war is that Trump's now asking for 88 billion to cover the war costs. Do you think we got 88 billion worth of value out of the war?

[Tom Nichols]

I think the value are the friends we made along the way.

[Tim Miller]

Well, J.D.

[Tom Nichols]

said that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's nice.

[Tom Nichols]

They're good people.

[Tim Miller]

J.D. was like, you won't even believe how cool it is. You don't believe how cool it is. It is so cool. I got to meet the people that were murdering their own protesters in the streets just like five months ago. And they're nice guys. I mean, you can have a beer. We can't have a beer with them. But, like. Because they don't do that. But you can have a tea. You can have a tea with them. And they're. It's like, whoa, holy cow. We both had fathers that abandoned us. We could kind of bond overseas. We've all changed our name three times.

[Tom Nichols]

Just gotta go there. Yeah, I think, you know, that was the first thing I mentioned in this piece about whiplash. It's like, I'm sorry, this was. This is existentially the worst regime of the most terrible tyrants. Their presence must be scoured from the earth with bombs and. And guns and missiles. But now they're pretty good guys. And Trump. Trump's trying to have it both ways, as he always does. He said, I never cared about regime change, but I actually did accomplish regime change. He always reminds me of White Goodman and dodgeball.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Tom Nichols]

I'm just kidding. But I totally have it. But I'm not. But I am kidding, but I'm not kidding. And now he's saying, you know, these are rational. These are reasonable people. They care about the country. It's the same people. The IRGC hasn't gone anywhere. The ayatollah is the son of the ayatollah. There is no. He. He's basically decided.

[Tim Miller]

And.

[Tom Nichols]

And this was the point of writing because, you know, I got kind of halfway through that piece, and I was like, you know, I could sit here all day talking about all of the ways that Trump has reversed himself. You know, we must destroy these missiles. Iran's missiles are the. And, you know, Marco, he's the guy who keeps saying this, right? He and Kane and others, they've said the very rational thing of the real concern here is that. That the Iranians build a conventional missile fortress on top of their nuclear program, that they. That they become this conventionally armed porcupine, okay? So we're going to get rid of all those missiles. Can't threaten Israel anymore, can't threaten the Gulf states anymore. And then Trump out of nowhere says, well, you know, you got it. They got to have them. Everybody has them. Can't say that Iran can't have them. Saudi Arabia has them. What am I going to say? The Iranians can't have them. Yes, that's what you said two weeks ago. You can say it. We know you can say it because you've said it already. I got through all that, and I realized this is the ultimate expression of everything that Trump is in terms of his shallow, empty transactionality. This war was a good idea because it would have been good for me. Now it's not good for me. So I want out. And I'm going to do a fire sale. I'm going to sell my Iran stock at pennies on the dollar to my creditors and get out. He basically treated the Iran war like a failed casino. You know, sell the furniture, fire all these people, get us out, demolish it, and then we will never speak of it again. And that's what he's doing.

[Tim Miller]

That's what I was talking to John Ganz about the other day. And, you know, he's like, there's. Trump is impulsive, and he's an actual thinker writer who has ideological priors, and he wants to, like, project ideology onto their opponents and critique the ideology. And he's like, well, it's hard to do with Trump. And it's frustrating because he's so impulsive. I was like, yeah, he's impulsive, kind of, but he also is Just like he's just a megalomaniac is like, the truth. Like, oh, he just cares about himself. His brain doesn't even process how things affect other people besides himself.

[Tom Nichols]

I'm colorblind. It's like, it's like when my daughter used to tease me by holding up socks and saying, what colors are these? I'm like, I can try really hard, but I. I don't. I can't do it. I can't see it. And, you know, there are people who, when it comes to morality or the ability to see other human beings as human beings, he doesn't have that gene. It doesn't. He doesn't have that part of the human brain that processes that the world around him is not a big movie set.

[Tim Miller]

He's not the Jim Carrey.

[Tom Nichols]

And so he's just saying, you know what? This is a good idea. I think that's one of the reasons that he's really soured on Netanyahu.

[Tim Miller]

Right. Again, it's not hard to process. Netanyahu is like, you're going to be this great man, right? You're going to bring statues to you across the Middle East. You're also, you know, you're not only gonna have statues, but you'll probably have golf course and casinos and as well. And it's like, oh, wait, that's not happening anymore. What? You know, you're not useful to me. I'm gonna throw you over one. You're Michael Cohen. He's just world leader Michael Cohen.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, you made me look bad. Yeah, you can always see Trump with every bad idea. He looks around the room and he says, which one of you idiots told me to do this? Yeah, right.

[Tim Miller]

You know,

[Tom Nichols]

suddenly it's a whole room full of Jackie Gleason's Hamaha Mahama. But, I mean, for people to understand, why is he doing this? Why would he? Because you get these Republicans especially, and some of them, I'm sure, still genuinely believe that Trump is some sort of patriot who cares a lot about why, you know, who knows why they say, why would he make such a deal? For the same reason that he didn't pay all his debts in New Jersey and closed all his casinos and sold everything for. And just said, I'm out.

[Tim Miller]

I'm done.

[Tom Nichols]

It didn't work. I'm going on to something. Build another skyscraper, put my name on it. That'll work. And now we're just waiting to see what the next skyscraper is.

[Tim Miller]

It's frustrating that we're the only ones that understand this. Tom Nicholas Rubio is doing a cleanup tour through the Gulf States, and there's so many clips I could play from it because I just. I love watching Marco squirm. And he was.

[Tom Nichols]

And also because he's wearing uncomfortable shoes because they're the wrong size.

[Tim Miller]

Extremely uncomfortable shoes. He was there in Bahrain, meeting with the Omanis. He's like. There's this one clip where. It's where he's like, you know, things are going great with Oman. We have good relationship. And then the reporter follows up, and it's like, didn't Trump threaten to bomb them a couple weeks ago? And he's like, well, I can only speak about today. I can't speak about two weeks ago. Let's not argue about who killed him. And then there was this one. I had to play this audio because it just caught me blindsided. Rubio gets shouted at coming out of a working lunch. Working lunch in the Gulf States. And he's asked about one of the other attendees of the lunch. Let's play that.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Mike was just. Michael. Oh, he started to see his brother lives here. He was just starting to see me catch up.

[Tim Miller]

There was a working lunch, right?

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

There was, but he wasn't. But the conversations around him had to do with. He was just here because his brother lives here, and I'm a good friend of mine, so we had a chance to catch up.

[Tim Miller]

Mike. You're talking about Mike? That guy Mike from down the block? He just. How did he end up there at this bilateral meeting with the block?

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Michael.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Michael Boulos, we don't know. Is Tiffany Trump's husband. Businessman, raconteur. And he just happens to be there. It's just like, you know, hey, if you want. If you're a friend of Marco, if your brother lives in Bahrain, you can just get on the plane with the Secretary of State. You fly over there, you sit there. It's a working lunch. Maybe make a couple deals. Maybe you get a little bag from the Qataris or the Kuwaitis or the Bahrainis. Like, the scale of the corruption of these fucking guys. We've barely even scratched the surface. And that's why I just like that clip. It's just like this random shit. It's like, wait a minute. Tiffany's husband was at the bi Lap. Just happened to be there.

[Tom Nichols]

You know, Tim, the last time I went through Abu Dhabi, you and I missed each other by about five minutes, right? I mean, it was just, you know. Tim Miller, Abu Dhabi. Of course he was.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, you remember when Marvin Bush was there at all of George W's bilaterals. That's right. Wasn't he sure? Neil Bush was just kind of on the plane.

[Tom Nichols]

Dora, listen, it's a bit, it's a small world. We bump into each other. I think when this is over, as I think it will be sooner rather than later, this is going to be a bonanza for forensic accountants.

[Tim Miller]

Oh my God.

[Tom Nichols]

Because there's going to be a lot of stuff that gets peeled back. And I think I'm less astonished at the corruption than I am at the casual way that we have all, all of us, you know, I mean, this is a watergated day. This is Watergate on steroids once a day. And we've all learned to just say, well, I mean, you know, in a way, Tim, we're sitting here laughing about it and we shouldn't be. I mean, it's 20 years ago we'd have been shocked.

[Tim Miller]

It's outrageous.

[Tom Nichols]

We've been outraged.

[Tim Miller]

And now I'm outraged still.

[Tom Nichols]

I know, but we've just been so fire hosed about it that, you know, is it worse than hiring some Batman villain to redo the reflecting pool? You know, is it worse than, you know, the President accepting emoluments from foreign countries practically as a condition of doing business? I mean, you know, it, it becomes exhausting. And that, I think is always the danger with this. Administrations and Americans, even the ones who care a lot, even people like you and me, fall in the news every day that, you know, it just wears us out to the point of saying there's almost nothing you can do about it. And I don't want to get that way.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with that. If you want me to be outraged, I want to flag one more thing. We don't know what Michael Boulos is getting. He's on the take. I don't, I don't think he was just visiting his brother. But we'll see, we'll learn. Here's something we do know. This was a New York Times story, it's from a couple of months ago, but it kind of was recirculated on social media. And I got my dander up about it again. And I think in the context of what I mentioned earlier, you put it this way, Trump's asking for 88 billion to cover war costs. That's our money. With a stupid fucking war that had no purpose. That in the end we're going to be worse off than we were when we started. 13Americans died. It's 88 billion is coming from us simultaneously to that the lead negotiator managing this war, his son in law, Jared Kushner is pulling in an extra 5 billion from Gulf states for his investment fund month. So the Trump family is pulling in 5 billion at least from the same region, while they're taking 88 billion from us. I don't know, I feel like we can pull out our old kind of Republican green eye shade outrage over this and it's insane. The use of our money, it's appalling.

[Tom Nichols]

And what's appalling is, first of all, I think they count on that, the average, that this is too complicated for the average citizen to follow.

[Tim Miller]

And that's why I said it like that. That's pretty easy though, 88 billion from us, from 5 billion.

[Tom Nichols]

But you know, again, I think the average person is going to say, wait a minute, Jared Kushner's what now? Where is that? You know, I'll tell you where all this should have stopped was the minute Trump said, I'm sending a real estate guy and my son in law to handle matters of war and peace is where everybody should have stopped you. There should have been the big needle scratch right there. And saying what, you know, not only is this improper, not only does this open the door to all kinds of potential corruption, but I'm, I'm sorry, these are not people that are qualified to do this. The, the security of the United States is at stake here. And you're sending two guys, you know, that, that don't know which way is up to Russia, to Iran to go up against some of, you know, the real, look, you don't have to hand it to the Russians or the Iranians, but their negotiators, their experience at this, they're professionals. This is like sending in little league coaches, you know, against, against the Yankees or the Angels or something. I mean, this is, I'm using a sports ball metaphor, which is weird for me, but I mean, you really are sending in complete amateurs against complete professionals. They're saying, yeah, boss wants to get out of this. Boss is mad at about Ukraine. Do what you can. And in the meantime, what's for lunch and what kind of deals can we make for ourselves?

[Tim Miller]

Silly stuff, rapid fire. You have one minute on each topic. Number one, Tulsi, any thoughts on our national intelligence being subject to the mind control of a Hawaiian cult leader named Guru Chris?

[Tom Nichols]

You know, I retweeted that story on social media and Tulsi has all these defenders are like, oh my God, no, she's a patriot. She would, I'm sorry. The only thing the Washington Post did was nail down all the rumors that had been circulating around her for years. Yeah, I said when Trump first mentioned her, she's a very weird person. I think, at least in her public perception, public presentation, totally unqualified to be dni. I think the good part of her being in that job was that she didn't know what she was doing because you have to have some knowledge of the organization to do real damage to the organization. And that's why I'm not that worried about Bill Pulte P is going to fire a bunch of people and he's going to, you know, crash around and stumble and, you know, break pottery and then he'll, he'll have to go away. But I always think of something someone said about Ben Carson when he was at in Trump's first term and he was at hud. Someone said, it's actually good that the secretary doesn't know a single thing about the department because that limits the damage he can do.

[Tim Miller]

So.

[Tom Nichols]

Yes, but I think, I think, you know, the Tulsi story was inevitable and the fact that again, we're just kind of shrugging and saying, oh, that's cool. I mean, it also tells me that when it comes to the Trump administration, security clearances are a quaint thing of the past.

[Tim Miller]

No, there are none. Do you have an alibi from the night that there was a 350 foot gash cut into the great American flag blue reflecting pool?

[Tom Nichols]

I am not here to answer your question, Senator.

[Tim Miller]

350 foot gash, no cameras on the mall.

[Tom Nichols]

That was the name of my college Dead Kennedy beast tribute band.

[Tim Miller]

Topic three, does George Conway's loss in New York 12 stamp out any remaining hope that you have that you'd spend your golden years in Congress? No.

[Tom Nichols]

And I'm glad George did it. I'm glad he got out there and, you know, carried that flag. I don't think. I never thought George had much of a chance in very blue district where there was going to be this residual kind of. You were a former Republican, can't vote for you. I mean, I think it's, I think it's unfortunate that Democrats still think that the never Trumpers like you and me and George and others are part of some secret cabal to restore Republican greatness. When in fact the person that would have been in that, the person who would have been the biggest pain in Trump's ass would have been George Conway because he knows where all the, you know, again, he knows where all the levers are, he knows where all the bodies are. Buried. On the other hand, George didn't make it, but neither did Jack Schlossberg.

[Tim Miller]

So, you know, there are silver lining. Yeah. I feel like he could have done it in Northern Virginia. There are certain districts where it might have worked. It would have been nice. The main reason I wanted George to be there is that I feel like we deserve a congressperson and now someone else has to carry this mantle. Who will file 100 articles of impeachment? 104. I want one for every week of the next Congress. 104 articles. It used to be his thing have been George. And so now someone else has to raise their hand and do it. They'll get attention from the board podcast.

[Tom Nichols]

But, Tim, you're talking about New York City where they're going to send two. No kidding. You know, wackadoodle socialists.

[Tim Miller]

At least one. I mean, and. Yeah, two. Yeah, at least one.

[Tom Nichols]

I shouldn't say that, you know, but I, I don't know the other two. But, but at least one socialist who has some pretty out there.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, things wasn't going to be George. She shouldn't have done anything about Ukraine. I mean, I, I get a whole list of her crazy things yesterday and I didn't even.

[Tom Nichols]

Russia. And you know, let's.

[Tim Miller]

Covid came from France. It's like, come on, everybody. She thought Covid. She said Covid came from France. Don't want to blame the Chinese.

[Tom Nichols]

This is gonna end.

[Tim Miller]

Not. Well, final topic. I hear that you keep the air conditioning in that house that you're sitting right now at 67. 67, yeah.

[Tom Nichols]

And sometimes lower. Lower, yeah, sure. Sometimes at night, I like to. Sometimes at night, in the middle of July, they'll throw a blanket on Tim.

[Tim Miller]

That is, Are you concerned at all about. Are you doing carbon offsets? Are you. What's happening on your extremities?

[Tom Nichols]

Have you met me?

[Tim Miller]

What's happening on your phalanges?

[Tom Nichols]

What the hell kind of question is that?

[Tim Miller]

What is happening on your fingers and toes? My extremities would be so chilly.

[Tom Nichols]

Okay. But now I will say this, that I do have to kind of manage. I'm looking at my air conditioner right now. I have what's called sometimes called air European air conditioning. I have to use those mini splits.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Tom Nichols]

Because my house is not to have ducts, so I don't have central air. I have units. So I have to kind of sometimes keep some of those colder than others because I'm air conditioning a bigger space. I like my house cold. I, I, I like it nippy. You know, and maybe part of that is, well, okay, first of all, I love that scene in Dogma where, you know, Jason Lee stands there under the, you know, the greatest sin ever, the greatest thing ever made. Totally underrated in the 60s without air conditioning. Begged my dad for it. He thought air conditioning was for the weak and the rich and he wouldn't do it.

[Tim Miller]

My soft handed boy.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, well, my father was also Greek. To him, anything, you know, below 95 was winter. But also, I spent 25 years working in a very poorly ventilated government building where I had to wear a tie and a jacket most days and sweat through the admiral. One of the admirals I worked for, he said, what's the greatest thing we could do for the Naval War College? And I raised my hand and I said, fix the air conditioning. And he just looked at me like, if I could throw you off this boat, I would. So I've always been in these very uncomfortable environments, both growing up and working, and now my house. You can, I can chill a soda on my desk. And if I need a carbon offset for that, you know, I'm just going to say I'm 65. Climate change is not my problem.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, my God. Tom Nichols. Oh, my God. It all does go back to our coming of age, because I think I'm the opposite. I like things hot. And I think for me, I had a job that I don't think I was allowed to have by law. A campaign manager's friend owned a liquor store, and so I was paid through the liquor store. And they would have me work in the fridge, like when I stock the beer in the fridge. And I don't think my core temperature ever recovered. I was so chilly. I think my core temp has remained below equilibrium ever since.

[Tom Nichols]

My students would ask me, my undergraduate students would say, you grew up in the 60s, man, that must have been cool. That must have been awesome. What were the 60s like? And I said, warm, you know, there was no, there was no air conditioning and people smoked in hospitals. And so now that I can have clean, pure, crystal cold air blowing into my house at will, I'm going to do it. And I'm very sorry about climate change. And I'm sorry if Miami is going to slide into the ocean because of something, you know, 60 years from now, when, when Charleston, you know, finally falls into the sea, you can blame me,

[Tim Miller]

but I won't be around to hear it. That's Tom Nichols, currently the leader in the clubhouse for most visits to the Bulwark podcast on tomorrow's show. I told you we're gonna get to the housing. I wanna get to this fucking outrageous situation in Texas. And a bunch of other stuff with the person that is currently the leader in the clubhouse for most audio downloads of a single Bulwark podcast episode, dominating Tom Nichols on that front. And you'll have to see what it is tomorrow. Thank you, Tom.

[Tom Nichols]

Wow. I challenge acceptance.

[Tim Miller]

We'll see y' all then. Peace,

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Bag.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Scumbag.

[Tim Miller]

I'mma throw your ass in the trash can. Trash can. The Borg Podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.