The Bulwark Podcast – "Abby Phillip: Governing by Troll"

Date: October 29, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Abby Phillip (CNN NewsNight anchor, Author of A Dream Deferred: Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Tim Miller welcomes CNN’s Abby Phillip to discuss the latest political headlines, the dynamics of televised debate, the rise of “governing by troll” in politics, and her new book on Jesse Jackson’s overlooked influence in American political life. The conversation touches on the ongoing government shutdown, America’s foreign policy in the Caribbean, the widening use of culture-war “memes” by government agencies, and how media fosters or impedes honest debate. The episode closes with a deep dive into Jesse Jackson’s unique legacy and the continued relevance of populist politics on the left and right.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Government Shutdown: No Easy Off-Ramp

[01:04–04:58]

• Abby reflects on the “weirdest” shutdown she’s covered, comparing it to those under Trump, and sees no clear solution:

  “I think this has been the weirdest shutdown ever. … There is not a great off ramp.” (Abby, 01:36)

• She notes political toxicity for Republicans, as large numbers of their constituents now rely on Obamacare subsidies and safety-net programs:

  “When you look at the chart of where Obamacare enrollment has dramatically increased, it is a huge swath of Republican territory.” (Abby, 04:04)

• Miller and Phillip agree moderates will have to cut a deal, likely first in the Senate—with little appetite for House action.

2. U.S. Policy in the Caribbean: The Boat Bombing Debate

[05:11–08:55]

• Tim brings up an American military operation targeting boats near Venezuela, with a (weak) rationale of interdicting fentanyl and drug trafficking.
• Abby, who has family roots in Trinidad & Tobago, questions the policy’s basis and whose interests it’s really serving:

  “As an American, you also have to ask … are we just serving as the police force for the Caribbean?” (Abby, 06:20) “There is virtually no fentanyl coming from Venezuela. Most of that is coming from Mexico, nearly all of it.” (Abby, 07:13)

• She also raises concerns about transparency and mission creep in the U.S.’s global policing.

3. “Governing by Troll”: Memes, Racial Messaging, and Public Discourse

[08:55–12:27]

• Tim highlights government agencies deploying nostalgia-laden, all-white “America First” memes and digital propaganda.
• Abby critiques this “governing by troll” style:

  “This government has been sort of governing by troll from the very beginning … it’s all about owning the libs.” (Abby, 10:40) “They do not like this idea of a multiracial democracy. … They believe that is a sign of our national decline.” (Abby, 11:21)

• She links the meme warfare to real policy impacts, including refugee policy shifts that favor white immigrants.

4. The Value and Limits of Televised Debate

[12:27–20:47]

• Tim questions the utility of “debate shows” in an era of ever-deeper silos.

• Abby defends panel debates as a way to:

  • Expose real rather than sanitized or “fake” arguments.
  • Test ideas in real time and give viewers a window into genuine disagreements.
  • Ensure the public understands the breadth of viewpoints influencing government:

    “Our goal is … we don’t get brownie points for pretending like half the country isn’t around and doesn’t have viewpoints and doesn’t vote.” (Abby, 13:19) “Having ideas tested is also super important.” (Abby, 16:10)

  • Acknowledges, however, that viral clips sometimes distort perception of the overall conversation.

• Tim airs his reluctance to platform guests who don’t make their real argument, or who “lie” for political purposes.

• Abby agrees, stressing they challenge bad-faith talking points, attempt to draw out core beliefs, and constantly seek new voices—even if the process isn’t perfect:

  “We don’t stop trying to find those voices because I do genuinely think that we need to know what is happening on all sides of this.” (Abby, 19:54)

5. Drawing the Line on Who Participates: “You Know It When You See It”

[20:47–24:50]

• Discussion on where—and how—to draw lines on acceptable panelists. Abby admits to a “know it when you see it” standard.
• Explicit “no” to inviting white nationalist Nick Fuentes (22:27), and Candace Owens on sensational misinformation (24:02), but open to controversial but influential strategists like Steve Bannon.

6. Behind-the-Scenes on Panelist Dynamics & a Viral Incident

[24:50–29:56]

• Miller asks about panelist “favorites” (Abby playfully dodges).
• Abby addresses a past on-air incident with Mehdi Hasan and a MAGA troll, defending her handling and reassuring that Hasan was not “banned” from CNN:

  “Calling someone a terrorist and wish that they were killed … is a line.” (Abby, 26:53) “If [Mehdi Hasan] would like to come on our show, I would like to have him on the show.” (Abby, 28:59)

7. Karine Jean-Pierre’s Book Tour & Biden’s Fitness

[29:14–31:50]

• Brief discussion on Jean-Pierre’s critique of Democratic inclusivity and Joe Biden’s fitness for a second term.
• Abby is skeptical of attempts to conflate internal party grievances with the larger issue of Biden’s fitness or the party’s future:

  “I think that all of that has nothing to do with Joe Biden’s fitness to serve as president for four years.” (Abby, 29:56)

8. Jesse Jackson’s Overlooked Impact: "A Dream Deferred"

[31:50–50:35]

Why Jackson’s Campaigns Still Matter

• Abby wanted to fill in the “three-dimensional” picture of Jesse Jackson and his two historic runs:

  “If you want to understand the Trump of it all, there is so much of Jesse Jackson’s candidacy that is reminiscent of what Trump is doing right now, except from the other side of the political spectrum.” (Abby, 34:35)

• Bernie Sanders told Abby he saw his own campaign as a continuation of Jackson’s populist legacy.

Jackson’s Historic Gains

• After the 1988 Michigan caucus, Jackson had more pledged delegates than any Democratic contender, but the media instead asked, “What does Jesse want?” rather than “Can he win?”

Lessons for Today’s Democrats

• The panel discusses Jackson’s 1984 convention speech—his call to unity, economic programs, and moral vision.

• Jackson was the first candidate to explicitly include gays and lesbians in a major-party address, as well as Asian and Arab Americans.

  “He spoke to the identities of these people without siloing them, without … putting them in a box, but really saying there’s a kind of a thread that weaves us together.” (Abby, 43:05)

• Jackson’s language was unifying, moral, and comfortable with religious rhetoric, all while reaching out to working class and marginalized groups.

The Antisemitism Controversy

• Jackson’s downfall in 1984 was mishandling revelations about antisemitic comments and his ties to Farrakhan, showing the enduring challenge of coalition politics and the need for both words and actions to include all groups.

Anecdote: Jackson as Maverick Candidate

• Jackson’s unpredictability was legendary—he once left the campaign trail to negotiate the release of prisoners in Syria and Cuba, “puts Trump to shame in that respect,” says Abby.

  “He was such an unusual, unconventional, unpredictable candidate … it would have made him the most talked about person in that campaign.” (Abby, 49:12)

Memorable Quotes

• “This government has been sort of governing by troll from the very beginning, where it’s all about memes, it’s all about the Internet, it’s all about owning the libs.” (Abby, 10:40)

• “You don't get brownie points for pretending like half the country isn't around and doesn't have viewpoints and doesn't vote.” (Abby, 13:19)

• “There is a lot of resonance for Americans in a candidate that says to them, the system is broken and you need an outsider to fix it.” (Abby, 34:24)

• “He spoke to the identities of these people without siloing them, without sort of putting them in a box, but really saying there’s … a thread that weaves us together.” (Abby, 43:05)

• On Jesse Jackson’s unpredictability: “He kind of puts Trump to shame in that respect. He was the candidate that reporters would literally call up to his hotel room and ask what the schedule was tomorrow and he would tell them.” (Abby, 49:12)

Noteworthy Timestamps

• Shutdown Analysis: [01:04–04:58]
• Caribbean Policy Critique: [05:11–08:55]
• Governing by Troll & Meme Politics: [08:55–12:27]
• Debate Show Philosophy: [12:27–20:47]
• Line-Drawing in Panel Guests: [20:47–24:50]
• Mehdi Hasan Incident: [26:53–29:04]
• Karine Jean-Pierre, Biden, and Democratic Coalitions: [29:14–31:50]
• Jesse Jackson’s Political Relevance: [31:50–50:35]
  • 84 Convention Speech Excerpt: [38:04–39:42]
  • Discussion of Antisemitism Controversy: [45:22–48:19]
  • Jackson as Maverick: [49:06–50:35]

Final Thoughts

The episode weaves historical reflection with urgent contemporary analysis. Abby Phillip makes the case for understanding the roots of American populism, the dangers and cynicism of “governing by troll,” and the complex work of keeping panel debate vital and honest. Her portrait of Jesse Jackson invites listeners to reconsider how populist energy, moral vision, and genuine coalition-building have shaped—and continue to confront—the future of American democracy.

End of Summary