Alex Wagner: ICE Is Still Killing People

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast – July 8, 2026

Guest: Alex Wagner

Episode Theme:
A trenchant, unsparing look at democratic accountability, toxic masculinity, and the rising toll of abuses in ICE detention, with guest Alex Wagner. Tim Miller and Alex dissect political fiascos (from the Graham Platner scandal to Trump’s diplomatic clumsy moves), probe the moral rot across party lines, and vent their mutual, justified rage at the ongoing humanitarian crisis under ICE. The show ricochets from graver political reckonings to pop cultural absurdities, but retains its signature mix of candor, gallows humor, and thoughtful critique.

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Major Segments & Key Insights

1. The Graham Platner Scandal: Accountability, Masculinity, and the Dems' Dilemma

[00:12 – 21:03]

• The Main Emergency: Graham Platner, Democratic Senate candidate, faces credible rape allegations and mounting evidence of serial dishonesty (e.g., Nazi tattoo coverup, infidelities). There's universal pressure for him to drop out, but he persists in exerting influence over the process to replace him.

• Notable Quote

  "I've been using the word hubris. I've been using the word ego. These words are insufficient for the level of self involvement, selfishness, betrayal that we see from Graham."
  — Alex Wagner [03:19]

• Moral Lines: Alex Wagner lambasts the selfishness of Platner’s refusal to leave the race, the risks of letting personal vengeance (e.g., hatred of Susan Collins) cloud ethical judgment, and the repeated failure of Dems to vet "bad boys" they hope can broaden the coalition.

• Toxic Masculinity on the Left:

  "How do you compete in the field of being a man's man without championing people who are allegedly sexual assaulters and rapists? ... We know what Trump's version of masculinity looks like ... but what does it mean for the left?"
  — Alex Wagner [09:34]

• Reflection on Vetting: There’s broad agreement the party needs to better distinguish between “complicated” and “disqualifying” pasts in its working-class champions, and to avoid creating cults of personality.

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2. The Problem of Double Standards and “Whataboutism”

[23:01 – 26:49]

• Accountability Across the Aisle: While Democrats reckon, the GOP shields their own abusers (e.g., Max Miller in Ohio with multiple credible abuse allegations).

• Notable Quote:

  "They built the permission structure for aggressors to gain power."
  — Alex Wagner [25:08]

• Definition: Tim draws the line between “whataboutism” (minimizing one’s side’s misdeeds by comparison) and legitimate accountability efforts.

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3. Aging Political Leadership: The McConnell “Proof of Life” Saga

[28:00 – 32:13]

• Absurd Theater: The hosts rib the GOP’s ritualistic phone-call statements about Mitch McConnell’s alleged lucidity during a long hospital absence – a reflection of the power-hungry inertia in both parties.
• Notable Moment:

  "It was so strange. ... Like, could he get on the phone with a reporter? ... The whole thing is very strange."
  — Tim Miller [29:08]

• Alex’s Satirical Take:

  "I don't think they're actually like weekend and burning, Bernie's-ing in this thing until and unless we see Mitch speaking lucidly live."
  — Alex Wagner [29:26]

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4. Trump Abroad: Diplomatic Fumbles, Blame Game, and Economic Fallouts

[33:52 – 41:50]

• Summary: Coverage of Trump’s gaffes in Ankara/Turkey—erroneously referring to the "Islamic Republic of Japan," threatening Spain over NATO grievances, and failing to deliver substance in oil and Iran negotiations.

• Notable Quotes:

  "He said that the Islamic Republic of Japan shot 11 missiles."
  — Tim Miller [35:07]

  "It exemplifies American decline, that we lust after these celebrities that could give a fuck about the reality that is being lived by most people in this country."
  — Alex Wagner (on the Taylor Swift wedding, see below) [60:23]

• Insight: Alex reads Trump’s actions as “an angry baby throwing a fit in Ankara,” with deals like Versailles 2.0 dissolved almost instantly, revealing the lack of strategy and deepening domestic impacts (especially on oil prices).

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5. ICE Atrocities: Deaths, Detention, and The Broken System

Centerpiece Segment

[43:08 – 53:45]

• Focus:
  ICE’s reign of terror: Renewed mass arrests (10,000 in 5 days), surging deaths, and inhumane conditions for people who often entered or stayed in the US legally, e.g.,

  • Mohammed Paktawal: Afghan war ally, died after asthma medicine was withheld in detention.
  • Lorenzo Araujo: 35-year resident, killed by ICE during a traffic stop.

• Notable Exchange:

  "He was here because he helped us ... sacrificed his safety,... to help further, in theory, the principles of democracy and the values of the United States in his homeland. And this is how we treated him."
  — Alex Wagner [45:24]

  "Putting people that tried to come through the process, through asylum, legally, into some hellhole prison and making them stay there for months on end is, like, insane."
  — Tim Miller [49:57]

• Systemic Evil:

  • Administrative quotas (3,000 deportations/day), no medical access, families separated, minimal transparency. Wagner: “What is happening on the streets is bad enough. ... What is happening inside the detention centers in our name is utterly un-American and totally unconstitutional.” [48:35]
  • Intent is clearly to traumatize and deter: “It's self-deportation ... to make it so bad that they can't abide it anymore.” — Alex Wagner [50:08]

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6. Coping with Political Rage: Yoga and Self-Care

[53:45 – 55:54]

• Acknowledgment: Both hosts admit their rage is sometimes overwhelming, blinding, and, if unchecked, corrosive—hence, yoga and self-care as partial antidotes.
• Notable Quote:

  "Yoga was an important part of the recovery from that."
  — Tim Miller [54:54]

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7. Pop Culture and Absurdity: From Taylor’s Wedding to Sex Podcasts

[55:48 – End]

• Taylor Swift/Travis Kelce’s Wedding:
  Alex is appalled by the excess—22,000-seat stadium, celebrity overload, luxury raffles:

  "It was so late-stage imperial decline ... What a senseless, just utterly degraded way of spending that money at a moment when everybody... It's like Marie Antoinette ..."
  — Alex Wagner [58:33 – 60:23]

• Sex Podcast Proposal:
  The duo riff about launching a candid podcast about sexuality and power, blending political themes with personal stories—but immediately laugh over their own mutual inhibition (and that of their producer).

• Advice Segment: On finding a spouse’s secret “Kik” profile:

  "That's a concerted effort to cheat, a concerted effort to get your goods on the market... I just think it's a huge red flag."
  — Alex Wagner [66:49]

---

Notable Quotes:

• "Only someone who is completely delusional and a liar would continue… If this is true and he hasn't offered any evidence to it not being true ... you have to be kind of unhinged to know that you have these skeletons in your closet and full steam ahead with the campaign."
  — Alex Wagner [06:06]
• "When you hate ... you begin to start to justify things."
  — Tim Miller [21:59]

---

Important Timestamps

| Topic | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------|--------------| | Platner Scandal (start) | 00:12–21:03 | | GOP & Abuse Double Standard | 23:01–26:49 | | McConnell Absence Satire | 28:00–32:13 | | Trump Abroad/Spain/Iran Blunders | 33:52–41:50 | | ICE Killings & Detention Conditions | 43:08–53:45 | | Rage & Yoga Coping | 53:45–55:54 | | Taylor Swift’s “Imperial” Wedding | 55:48–62:35 | | Sex Podcast + Red Flags in Marriage | 62:36–End |

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Tone & Style

• Language: Sharp, unsparing, alternating between passionate anger and biting humor; pulls no punches in calling out hypocrisy or moral failures.
• Chemistry: Tim and Alex have a fast-paced, sometimes snarky repartee, but always ground the laughs (even gallows ones) in serious inquiry and a search for accountability.

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Takeaways

• Democrats Must Move Past “Lesser of Evils”: Fears of losing must not blind the liberal coalition to obvious red flags—it’s time for a real reckoning on masculine “anti-heroes.”
• ICE Abuses Are an American Crisis: Deaths of legitimate asylum seekers, even US allies, highlight the system’s cruelty and deliberate impunity.
• Accountability is Non-Partisan: Demanding real consequences in your own party is the only answer to the GOP’s moral abdication.
• Political Rage: Use It, Don’t Let It Use You: Channeling rage into activism and maintaining standards is crucial—self-awareness, yoga, and even humor matter for survival.

---

Essential Listen?

Whether seeking catharsis, moral clarity, or insight into the emotional cost of America’s political failures, this episode hits hard—and never forgets the people most harmed in the process.

Transcript

[A]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back to the show host of the podcast Runaway country from Crooked Media. She also writes the substack. How the hell with Alex Wagner. It's my buddy, Alex Wagner.

[B]

Hi, friend. It's great to see you.

[A]

What's up? It's good to see you too. You're fresh. You're off of vacation.

[C]

I read on your substack.

[A]

Yeah, I'm dragging.

[C]

I'm heading into vacation vacation fast.

[B]

Even after you get back.

[A]

Vacation is on the horizon for me. And you know, the Graham Platner agonist

[C]

this week has been the thing that's about ready to send me over the edge. So looking for you to carry me today.

[A]

Let's start with Platner.

[C]

There's a ton of news Trump is having doing insanity right now in Europe as we're talking.

[B]

Even more so than usual, I guess it's more public. It's like when you're crazy old uncle starts running around naked outside. You're like, ooh, this is another level of embarrassing.

[A]

That's what's happening. So we're gonna get to that towards

[C]

the end in case he literally does get naked.

[A]

I don't wanna miss that.

[B]

We have no dignity left as a country. That would be the end of it.

[A]

So we'll do politics first.

[C]

The latest in the Platner story is

[A]

that he hasn't dropped yet. Literally everyone has called for him to drop out, including Bernie Sanders and Zoran

[C]

and other people kind of from his wing of the Democratic Party. Even his consultants are kind of starting to do the thing this morning that was like, this wasn't kind of looking around.

[B]

I didn't talk to the New York Post.

[A]

Who are the guys that did this? You know, all we did was yes. So everybody's trying to get out of it. And, you know, by the time this

[C]

publishes, who knows, maybe things will change. I think there's some worries that Platner tries to gut this out and, you know, kind of does a Democratic. Roy Moore. I hope that is not the case.

[A]

What we do know is that they are, at minimum, putting the main Democratic

[C]

Party in a really tough spot. And he's got till 5 this coming Monday at 5pm to drop out if he chooses to do so. He's been trying to.

[A]

Well, let's actually just listen.

[C]

This is the executive director of the main Democratic Party. And let me tell you, she deserves hazard pay for what she's dealing with right now. And she put out this video Yesterday, kind of summarizing the state of affairs.

[D]

Hi, everyone. I wanted to provide you all an update on the US Senate race here in Maine. As you know, the Maine Democratic Party has been working around the clock to develop a process to replace our U.S. senate nominee that is open, inclusive, transparent, and fair. The integrity of this process is just as important as the outcome, and we are committed to ensuring that Democrats across our state can have confidence in both. Unfortunately, Graham Platner's team has repeatedly reached out to us in an attempt to put their thumb on the scale of what this process looks like. We have also reiterated that Graham Platner must drop out of this race so that Democrats in Maine can focus on defeating Susan Collins this November.

[C]

That's Devin Murphy. Anderson. Shout out to her.

[B]

Much respect. Much respect. Dev.

[A]

What do you make of all that, Alex?

[B]

I mean, first of all, I've been using the word hubris. I've been using the word ego. These words are insufficient for the level of self involvement, selfishness, betrayal that we see from Graham. Like, it would have been bad enough that he lied about the Nazi tattoo. It would have been bad enough that there was the infidelity, that he kept lying to his supporters and the public about the next shoe to drop. The rape allegations, which you talked about at length and I'm sure we'll continue to talk about, are entirely credible. It's the end of his campaign. The idea that he has any currency left to try and manipulate the process by which his replacement is chosen is, I think, the apex of, like, toxic masculinity. Who the fuck does he think he is? He doesn't. First of all, can I just say, anything endorsed by Graham Platner is therefore tarnished by Graham Platner. Like, why does he think it would be a good thing for.

[A]

He can endorse somebody if he wants. It's a free country. I don't know.

[B]

But like, any. Any process that he's a part of, I mean, I just. He doesn't seem to clock. The longer this goes on. His currency is already devalued considerably. But the longer this goes on, the more and more devalued it becomes, and the more and more everybody wants to get the hell away from him. I would hope that today is the day that he exits the race. Time is of the essence. Everybody has 2024 PTSD. Like, this needs to end so that, as Dev says, it can be an open, transparent, inclusive, and fair process and that there isn't sort of mutiny, insurrection, and bad vibes heading a critical Senate race.

[A]

Yeah. And this is the thing that I don't really get.

[C]

The charge here, as you mentioned, is rape.

[A]

I said this two days ago. It's like one of the options on the table is not. I'm gonna sit around and kind of

[C]

see how things play out and try to manipulate things from behind the scenes like a manipulator.

[A]

Like, the options are, I didn't do the rape, and I'm going to do everything possible to defend my honor and

[C]

to focus on defeating Susan Collins. And I think a lot of people would be deep skeptical of that. But, like, that's one option on the table if, like, you didn't do it.

[A]

But, like, if you did it or

[C]

you did something close enough to it,

[A]

you know, then it's like, get the fuck out and stop telling people what to do. Like, we have PTSD about Biden.

[C]

I do want to talk about kind of lessons from that.

[A]

Like, this is not that, like, the Biden thing was like, this was a judgment call. Are you too old to be president? It's like he was fooling himself a little bit into thinking he could still be president his age. But, like, you know, I was apoplectic. Top critic of that, but you can at least understand it. This is not that. Like, this is, you need to leave the race because you have credible accusations of rape.

[B]

I think his behavior in the wake of these allegations almost serves to support the allegations, because only someone who is completely delusional and a liar would continue. If this is true and he hasn't offered any evidence to it not being true. He hasn't denied that he was sent an Instagram message by Jenny Rascoe that said that sex was non consensual. Never contact me again. He's never. He hasn't denied that he is clearly aware that something happened that night in 2021 because she made a point of talking, trying to communicate with him about it. And only someone who knew this was in his rear view mirror would go out there and say, in the wake of the first batch of allegations, there's nothing else to see here, folks. Like, you have to be kind of unhinged to know that you have these skeletons in your closet which are very likely to come out and full steam ahead with the campaign. Go on Ms. Now and say, you know, you've seen, like, effectively all there is to see here. We're good knowing that this was on the horizon.

[A]

And by the way, when you went on Ms. Now with our friend Chris

[C]

Hayes, and I was on after that,

[A]

right after it was Like, Chris was

[C]

really good in questioning him about this.

[A]

And it was like, he's obviously not

[C]

about the Nazi tattoo. Then.

[B]

Yeah. And I texted Chris.

[A]

That's what I came on here and said the next day. I was like, I'm watching this. I'm like, you're lying. He's obviously lying about that.

[B]

I texted Chris, I said, dude, nice work. But also, I don't believe him.

[C]

Right.

[A]

It was just obvious at the time

[C]

that he was lying about that.

[A]

And to me, it was like, okay, you know, the thing I kept saying

[C]

on this, and maybe this is time to kind of revisit things that were

[A]

missed is, you know, it's like, he's not a Nazi. And I still don't think he's a Nazi. I don't think the story of the

[C]

Nazi tattoo is he got a fucking tattoo to be a tough, badass guy. And then, like, event, like, at some point realized that it was a totenkamp and then started making jokes about it. Everyone can make the judgment for themselves on how bad that is, but, like, that's what happened.

[A]

But instead of saying that and covering

[C]

it up, he was like, I didn't know about this until whatever some reporter told me three months ago. And it's like, no, that's not true.

[A]

And. And, like, that was obvious for a while. And I do think there needs to

[C]

be some reflection from people on the Democratic side about, like, why, you know, these red flags weren't addressed. And there are certainly people, some here

[A]

at the Bulwark, some elsewhere, not me,

[C]

who are like, these red flags are too red. There should be, you know, no accepting this and, like, shout out to them.

[A]

But, like, what.

[C]

What is your take on, like, what the reflections are on that?

[B]

Well, I will just say, and I don't want to scold here, but, I mean, I work with some wonderful men at social media, and we were kind of always not at loggerheads, but there was always a kind of a frisson of not tension, but, like, disagreement at the beginning of all this when the scandals first started coming to the fore. Because I just remember saying, like, are we sure, guys? And you've pointed this out. This is one of the most crucial Senate races in the country. Like, are we sure people are ready to bet the farm on someone who clearly hasn't been vetted and, like, obviously has a lot of complications in his past. Like, nobody knows anything about this guy because he was basically door knocked by two Democratic operatives and picked from complete anonymity and chosen to be a Senate candidate. This Isn't someone who has any proven record on anything other than being incredibly adept at speaking and being very convincing? I think in spinning his narrative about fighting for the working class and being a warrior, I think it raises broad questions about masculinity and how we look at men and what we want out of our men as fighters and what we're willing to abide in the name of bad male behavior. I mean, I was shocked that he didn't have to pay any sort of deference to the allegations of infidelity. And more I think urgently the New York Times reporting on his violent treatment of women. Like that was just kind of like, well, we're gonna abide this because fuck Susan Collins. And it's like, okay, I get that. But at some point there needs to be a reckoning inside the about like what is over the line, what is toxic masculinity? And I don't want to sound like some liberal effete, but like, this is the moment of like the patriarchy has been eroded. We are at sea trying to figure out like, what is the left response to masculinity that has been co opted by the right. Like, we know what Trump's version of masculinity looks like and it looks a lot like sexual assault and it looks a lot like kind of he man retrograde pre feminist garbage. But like, what does it mean for the left? How do you compete in the field of being a man's man without championing people who are allegedly sexual assaulters and rapists? I mean, it's just there's gotta be some difference. And what is that difference?

[A]

A couple thoughts on this one. I should just say, you know, not all women maybe, but many, many, many sniffed this out. And like, even just like looking at

[C]

the bulwark, I'd say Catherine and Sarah and Mona were like the most skeptical of him probably. Maybe I'm forgetting somebody. So I think that there's something to be said for that.

[A]

Women know, the have seen it. This is not the first time that Democrats have had this reckoning, by the

[C]

way, and had to think about this. I mean, this is Bill Clinton, this is the 90s all over again, kind of.

[B]

I wasn't born yet, so I really don't know about.

[C]

Me neither. Yeah, Cuomo. And we could keep going. The archetype of kind of a progressive guy that's toxic in his personal life is not one that people are unfamiliar with. It is a real thing.

[A]

And I think when I look back

[C]

at, like, what did I miss about this or what I wish I had looked at differently.

[A]

It's like, I do genuinely believe that

[C]

the Democrats need more back of the classroom people. Like, this is just the reality.

[A]

Like, you can't win elections in this

[C]

country by only appealing to people that, like, went to college and, like, were strivers and, like, didn't make any mistakes in life. You know, you don't want to wear the hair shirt too much for the

[A]

Democrats because that's actually like, 95% of Democratic politicians in front of the classroom people didn't do anything wrong, didn't want anything on their permanent record, you know, and it's like, okay, that's great. By the way, the way, kudos. I honestly don't.

[C]

Maybe my voice is a little sarcastic, but I don't mean it that way.

[A]

That's just good for those folks, and that's admirable. But also, that's not the country.

[C]

Donald Trump's been elected twice.

[A]

And so it's like, okay, where is that balance? And I think that there's something to be said for. We want to believe that people can

[C]

be redeemed and that they can go through kind of a rough phase and come out of that and decide to be more responsible. And those stories do exist. It's not like, that's totally apocryphal.

[A]

And, you know, you kind of get torn between this. Like, okay, I see the red flags here, but I also have this hope, you know, that, like, somebody who is

[C]

really charming and is, like, connecting with voters and not just connecting with men

[A]

was like, connecting with the old ladies in Maine. I saw the pictures of his rallies.

[C]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Like, people are excited about it. That is tough.

[B]

Well, okay, first, let's just issue a caveat. Just because you didn't get straight A's in school doesn't mean you're also a rapist. Obviously, there are plenty of really good space between that didn't do well in school, who weren't ambitious, who have nothing to do with sexual assault, and actually are incredibly loving, wonderful people. So, like, let's just get that out of the way first. Secondly, Graham Platner went to Hotchkiss. Graham Platner sells oysters to his mom's restaurant. Graham Platner's father paid for his mortgage. Like, the narrative that this guy is for a salt of the earth oyster farmer is a little bit off base. He got kicked out of Hotchkiss, but I think in retrospect, he served in

[A]

the military, had real ptsd, he fought

[B]

for the country, he was ready to make the ultimate sacrifice. And those are things that should be rewarded. But I do think that the biography is a little bit more. There's a touch of Kavanaugh in his biography. And he, in fact, according to some reporting I read yesterday, was a supporter of Justice Kavanaugh when he was in his confirmation process. Which tracks. Right. There's the authentic kind of back of the classers, as you're talking about. And then there are the kind of like, kids coming from sort of more privileged middle class who just don't have the interest or the, you know, they're not meant for private schools or boarding schools. Even though he went to another.

[C]

John Ganz was good on this. I talked to him about this like a week or two ago before all this happened. That, you know, he just is a type.

[B]

Exactly. And I think women also understand that type, too. In particular, men can understand it as well. I don't want to be genderized here, but. But yes, I mean, I agree there needs to be. The Democratic Party is facing an existential threat in its reliance on educated upper

[C]

middle class voters, like black women of all classes. Like, that's the Democratic coalition right now. It's like college educated people. And like black women, there has to

[B]

be a way to get back to working class Americans that doesn't travel down the path of sexual assault or degrading women. But do you know what I mean?

[A]

No, definitely.

[B]

That rough and tumble masculinity is kind of still part of the essential portrait of, like, being working class in the parody. That is how we conceive of masculinity, I think, on the left or how we're looking at it. And that's fucked up. And that's what was happening with Platner, is that that's how people look. Looked past someone who's like, twisting his girlfriend's arm and locking her in a room and then like, voted for because people are so desperate to get Susan Collins out, which is a whole nother aspect of all this.

[A]

2 thoughts on this. One is one of the hard questions

[C]

that a lot of Democrats don't want to grapple with. I like, literally ask every politician that comes on this podcast, some version of this question is like, isn't the issue

[A]

with working class people actually that they

[C]

feel like Democrats are out of touch with them on cultural issues?

[A]

And you might feel like you're right

[C]

on all the cultural issues. And I'm not out here saying you

[A]

need to throw the gays under the bus, but isn't that really the issue? And so it's the easy answers to say, hey, let's go find a guy who puts on a working class costume and talks about the oligarchy. And we can cheer that. And that's easy. That's easy because it's like, okay, great. That's solving our problems. And the harder thing to grapple with

[C]

is like, okay, well, maybe we need to just at least broaden out policy solutions we have or think about other

[A]

ways to reach out to these people.

[C]

Or I don't know. Or maybe it's like, it's worth losing over these issues.

[A]

You know what I mean? Those are much harder questions.

[B]

It's the genius of the right is finding these wedge issues. And I mean, literally, it's like Donald Trump's destroying the country. But trans kids.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Like, they are.

[C]

I mean, Piers did this yesterday on the podcast.

[A]

Like, literally, basically did that sentence. But seriously, like, without sarcasm, it's worked.

[B]

You know, it's made people feel like, I can abide these transgressions, I can abide this betrayal, but at least my son isn't gonna turn into a daughter. And I don't know how you do it. I think it's like a reorientation of the entire conversation back to really essential, broad issues that affect people in their everyday lives. Vast majority of Americans are not dealing with trans kids on soccer teams. They just aren't. And when they are, when you literally have a child in your community who's trans, you're much more likely to be accepting and forgiving of the complexities of that life.

[A]

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[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

You know, one thing for myself, and I just think that, like, I have a lot of weaknesses.

[C]

There's some that I don't have. My mother always like, we don't have the green monster in our family. I don't have envy, which I'm really grateful for.

[B]

Wow, that's really awesome.

[C]

It's a good one. Yeah, I know.

[A]

So I've got a lot of bad

[C]

traits, so I'm just gonna, before I get to them, I'm gonna compliment myself.

[A]

I also don't, like, get into cults. Even my candidates. When I worked for candidates, I was always the most skeptical of my own

[C]

candidate, of everyone on the campaign.

[A]

Right. Underneath all that, though, I'm kind of a softie and I want people to be excited.

[C]

I feel like we've been so beaten down by Trump. I'm just assessing why was I more bullish on Graham than I should have been?

[A]

We've been so beaten down by the last 10 years. And it's like, I want, whatever you want to call it, the Democrats, the pro democracy movement, the left, to be

[C]

like excited again and energized.

[A]

And people were excited. Younger people were excited.

[C]

People in my life were excited about it.

[A]

And I was kind of like, okay, is that that bad?

[B]

No, of course not. Go look at a Jon Ossoff speech, right?

[A]

And I'm like cynical. And so I want that people are excited about Kamala for like a week. And I like Kamala, so I don't

[C]

even, I don't mean that as an insult, but there was a week of excitement throughout summer.

[A]

But before that, if you're like a 22 year old democrat, you kind of

[C]

don't even remember what it's like to be excited about Politics, Honestly, if you're

[A]

22 years old, how long ago was the 2008 campaign? We're doing quick math here. 18 years ago. You were 6. You don't really remember. I'm just trying to say, whatever he was channeling, it's important for the Democrats to try to channel that without having

[C]

the vessel be somebody like him.

[B]

He was channeling newness, too. I mean, the outsider dumb. And that's the most potentially damaging after effect of all of this, as Democrats are like, oh, no more new people, no more untested people. And I still believe that that can be the truth. Outsiders, people who haven't been in politics all their lives, we, you know, they just need to be better vetted, perhaps. And also, I don't think Democrats are ready to try and crack the code on how to, like, fight mano a mano. And on this masculine turf with Trump. Like, I think after 2024, everyone was like, we need a white guy. Find us the white guy. That's the answer. And it was like, it's Graham Blattner. It probably looks more like Jon Ossoff than Graham Platner, to be honest.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

My other weakness on this is the

[C]

final thing is, like, I hate them so much.

[A]

I don't have the green envy, but

[C]

I have the red and the eyes. Like, I hate them.

[A]

And sometimes hate can prevent you from,

[C]

you know, even if it's righteous hatred. You know, obviously we know that bad hatred can. Can char people's souls, but, like, even righteous hatred can.

[A]

Can blind you, you know, And. And I felt that way about the Biden thing. Like, I was anti Biden running again for a while, and then eventually I

[C]

kind of broke down, was like, whatever, fine. We just had to beat him, you know? And like, in Democratic pundit circles, there's a lot of tearing down of, like, the old pundits or don't. Don't understand the youth anymore. But it's like, I don't know.

[A]

It was Bill Kristol, James Carville, and

[C]

David Axelrod that were like, nope, fuck it, he's too old.

[A]

And they never wavered, you know, he's too old. Never wavered. And then I came back around and it was like, you know, and I think there was some of that here with Susan Collins. Like, I fucking hate that. And so it's like when you hate

[C]

them so much, you begin to start to justify things.

[A]

And I just think that's an important

[C]

thing for everybody to look at.

[B]

Susan Collins has earned her hatred totally. By the way, I remember interviewing her on the eve of the Kavanaugh vote, and she was waving away just concerns about Roe v. Wade falling. And she was the architect, in many ways of the loss of federally protected access to basic reproductive health.

[A]

So still claims she's pro choice. I still had people tweeting about her yesterday. Why don't you just support the moderate pro choice woman? It's like it's her fault that Roe

[B]

v. Wade overturned and wears the cloak of independence and moderation. It's so appalling. And she's appalling. And she has enabled his agenda in a way that is so mendacious and evil like, and pretends to be someone that can think for herself. It's a joke. The idea that Susan Collins does not have the blood of, like, ICE agents on her hands and doesn't have the degradation of our sort of moral fabric. She owns that.

[A]

She has her hands on everything. She was the chair of the Appropriations Committee.

[B]

What makes it worse, they funded everything.

[A]

They funded everything. And this was by which I will stand by going back to the Nazi

[C]

thing about Platner, I was like, okay,

[A]

you guys keep calling him a Nazi, but it was like, Susan Collins was the one that funded the fucking Gulag in El Salvador. That remains true.

[C]

And so there's good reason to hate

[A]

them, but, okay, you still have to have standards to that question of standards. There's this thing, what about ism? People like to throw around. I just want to do a quick

[C]

definition of whataboutism for people, because what about is about bad?

[A]

What about ism is when you say, hey, what I did or what my

[C]

candidate did is bad, but it's actually not a big deal because what this other person did is worse.

[A]

That's not a healthy way to function. What is not what about us is

[C]

to say what my side did is bad and we are trying to change it and have accountability for it.

[A]

But also, should not we also be talking about what you guys are doing that is the same, that is bad, that you're trying to avoid accountability for? On that point, I want to talk

[C]

about a guy named Max Miller.

[A]

He's a House member in Ohio. He's been credibly accused of physical abuse, domestic abuse, by two former partners, both prominent Republicans. So it's not like, oh, some liberal girlfriend he had in college. We can't trust this Trump spokesperson Stephanie Grisham and Ohio Senator Bernie Moreno's daughter.

[B]

Bernie Moreno's daughter, not nobodies.

[A]

And he's not saying anything. Okay. Grisham says Miller pushed her into a wall and slapped her in the face. Moreno said that Miller held a gun to her head while she was changing her daughter's diaper.

[C]

Said some really traumatizing things I'm not going to repeat. He threw against the wall again, all this.

[A]

Allegedly, he threw hot boiling water on her.

[C]

We have.

[A]

There's pictures of that. He's got a rap sheet also.

[C]

He violated restraining order, assault, disorderly conduct, et cetera, et cetera. He helped organize Trump's January 6th rally.

[A]

He's a sitting congressman from Ohio up for reelection. Important seat. I haven't heard a single Republican. I put this on social media yesterday, asking, has there been a single Republican that said he should drop out, that said that they should find a replacement candidate for this person?

[B]

No, of course not. Because they built the permission structure for aggressors to gain power. And like Kevin McCarthy out there on Fox News saying, ironically this week, oh, when we have bad candidates, we get rid of them. What a fucking joke. Like, what a fucking joke.

[C]

Reince also said that.

[A]

My former boss. Reince also said that I was like, wait a minute, Reince, you were the one that told Trump he should drop out after he admitted to rape on tape. Admitted to sexual assault on tape. I guess we'll say grab him by the pussy.

[B]

It's such a gray area.

[A]

Yeah, he admitted to it on tape. Bragged about it, actually. Didn't just admit about it. And you said he should drop out. And then he said, no, Reince, I'm not gonna drop out. And you're like, aye, aye, Captain, and kept working for him and then went to become his chief of staff. And you're like, on Fox, being like, republicans take care of our.

[B]

What can I just say, it's not a coincidence. It's not just that. Oh, my God. Why? Why are there so many men who victimize women in positions of power, especially in the Republican Party? Why is that? It's not that anybody would say this inside the gop, but there is a lust for command and control type personalities of men taking back the reins that I think this behavior, like, kind of establishes a certain worldview that is smiled upon in inside conservative circles. I genuinely think that. I don't think that they would publicly champion sexual assault or violence. But I do think, tacitly, when you see this narrative of men putting women in their place, it's not necessarily a thing that is seen as a negative. I think quietly and tacitly, inside certain conservative circles, I really just don't.

[A]

There's some people who would like, for

[C]

it to be that way or who would say that privately or whatever. But like, it's the vice signal element of it. Yes, right. It's like, it's like that.

[B]

Me too, bro.

[C]

Makes you tough.

[B]

Me too, bro. But also, like, who among us women are so out of control?

[A]

Are you?

[B]

Like, we want to like, control our bodies. We sometimes, like, don't want to have sex with drunk men. We like, want to make money in the same rate as men. We want fair wages. We want maybe some time off after we've pushed babies out of our kids.

[C]

It's gotta be a little emotional at times. So, you know.

[A]

Emotional.

[B]

Emotional.

[C]

You can get mad at us men when we didn't really deserve it, you

[B]

know, you never deserve it. Worthy of crazy ass emotional ones. We're basically always PMSing. That's how we live. According to the moon.

[A]

That doesn't feel right to me. You said it.

[C]

You said it, not me. You said it, not me.

[A]

Sarah Longwell's gonna get

[C]

no. She starts looking at my gay misogyny. Gay misogyny is a real thing, you

[A]

know, gay men and straight women are our natural allies.

[C]

Even still, the gay men sometimes can dip into the misogyny.

[B]

That's why we need to do our sex podcast together.

[A]

We're getting to that at the end. Mitch McConnell, is he alive? That's the next topic.

[B]

What is your definition of alive?

[C]

So this thing happens in politics where,

[A]

like we were seeing this with the Iran war a lot, where the Trump

[C]

administration will like, everything will be for cocktail with the Iran negotiations. And then they'll be like, hey, we're put Jared Kushner on a call with like 20 people.

[A]

And then.

[C]

And he's going to talk about actually how things are great. And then they're all going to tweet at the same time, like, siren, you

[A]

know, like, the Iranians are in retreat. Like, we heard from the administration, like, so this, it's kind of how you

[C]

get your message out. One way to get your Message out.

[A]

Mitch McConnell seems to be doing that from his deathbed. It's like, it was so strange. So Scott Jennings, John Barrasso, John Thune, all within like 10 minutes of each other, said, hey, just got off the phone with Mitch McConnell.

[C]

We talked for 20 minutes.

[A]

He was very lucid and was asking a lot of questions. We're discussing in depth what was happening

[C]

in Iran and Ukraine and the Senate map.

[A]

And it's like, okay, well, he's been in the hospital for three weeks. We haven't seen him almost a month now.

[B]

Proof of life.

[A]

And it's like, okay, well could he get on the phone with somebody else like a reporter or like, what? Why was it a zoom call? Why did you all report this back at the same. Were you on the phone at the same time or. The whole thing is very strange.

[B]

I think he is alive and I think he's alive.

[C]

Obviously if he's dead, well, I don't

[B]

think he's actually weekend and burning. I don't think they're actually like weekend and burning. Bernie's.

[A]

I agree with you.

[B]

Bernie's ing in this thing until and unless we see Mitch speaking lucidly live. I mean, I'm so freaked out by AI that like God knows what's possible. These definitions of I've just got off a call with Mitch McConnell could be like Mitch McConnell staffers and the body of Mitch McConnell sitting there in. In the. In the twilight was there as we discussed Iran.

[A]

There's a subplot where his wife Elaine Chao has been in China during this time having meetings. And all this is for nothing. We just kind of went over the

[C]

political power question, how sometimes that kind

[A]

of comply in your judgment. And so some people say, well, they're

[C]

doing this to keep him in there because you don't want a replacement. Kentucky has a Democratic governor and this

[A]

is all complicated, but even if Kentucky

[C]

replaced him with a Democrat or just

[A]

Tom Massey or something, it'd be for like two months.

[C]

There's a campaign going, right?

[A]

So this is all kind of for nothing. They're holding onto power for nothing. Anyway, there was some. A vivid reply happened from one Republican former congresswoman. She was on the streets of New

[C]

York and got asked about this by our friends at tmz. And I'd like to play that for you.

[E]

And I'd like to say shame on the Republican Party for just basically, basically staying silent while such a powerful Republican senator is basically laying in a hospital like a vegetable. And his wife flew to China and met with the vice president of China just days after he basically died. And they brought him back with CPR and took him to the hospital. But you know what? It doesn't surprise me from the establishment because this is what they support. They support people holding on to power until they're practically dead or do die in office.

[B]

Okay, this is so tailor made for mtg, isn't it? Yeah, like the most fantastical, wild, conspiracy, anti Chinese latent racist little jag there.

[A]

A little dollop of racism.

[B]

And then of course, fuck the Republican Party. I mean, it's just a story Taylor made for Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[A]

Yeah. Some latent racism. Maybe like a technical factor too. Wrong. But like the spirit of what she said, not totally wrong.

[B]

No. We don't know that he died and that he's a vegetable. We should really just. Cause he could come roaring back. It's Mitch fucking McConnell. Don't put anything past this guy. Right? And of course, like, even in a vegetative state, he's playing some weird game of chess with the politics of all this.

[A]

We'll keep an eye on it. We'll do more on McConnell legacy if

[B]

I keep an eye on it. We'll continue to entertain wild conspiracy theories about it until someone debunks us.

[C]

Until someone shows us his face. Let me see his face.

[A]

I've been out and about this summer, and now my big family vacation is right around the corner. When I'm traveling this much, it's hard to maintain the routines that keep me feeling good. Summer vacation can mean a different bed, a different schedule. Kids staying up late, kids getting up early, healthy habits getting put on pause. Except for the 32nd it takes to mix a little AG1.1 scoop plus 8 ounces of water every morning. It's AG1. AG1 helps to maintain energy, support gut health and support immune health. AG1 is clinically shown to support gut health and fill in common nutrient gaps. Even though summer is your license to chill, with all the late nights, long weekends and spontaneous plans, AG1 helps keep one thing consistent. High quality nutritional support every single day,

[C]

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[A]

I love anything that helps me get nutrients without a lot of effort. Okay? AG1 fits perfectly into the schedule. You can have a little coffee.

[C]

You put the AG one in, stir

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[C]

Or is it Ankara?

[A]

Is it Ankara?

[B]

Ankara?

[A]

I feel like I heard someone else

[C]

say Ankara and I got that in my house.

[B]

It's not Ankara. It's not in Alaska. That's Anchorage.

[A]

It's Anchorage.

[B]

Ankara.

[C]

Being on a Podcast is so hard.

[B]

It's not.

[A]

You know, it's like. It's really not every word.

[C]

You gotta get pronounced right.

[A]

You don't have any of that Problem

[B]

on Runway TV is worse. You have an editor that can just cut out this whole thing.

[A]

But they won't.

[C]

It's fun now. Let's keep it in.

[B]

It's self effacing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The editor likes to hold me.

[B]

They like that. It makes you feel.

[A]

Yeah. And Cara. And there's press conference this morning. Much is discussed. I guess we'll start with Iran. We started very powerful.

[C]

Speaking of Mexican. It's always powerful. Strong strikes against Iran last evening in response to Iran shooting at some ships in the Strait of Hormuz. Still trying to control the Strait of Hormuz.

[A]

We claimed we had 80 military targets.

[C]

Iran says they respond to the drone and missile attacks. Trump said that we're revoking the license, allowing them to sell Iranian oil.

[A]

So that was nice. People were able to get that cool

[C]

Ayatollah oil for a couple weeks and not anymore.

[B]

So, so good.

[A]

And this morning he said we may take over Carg Island.

[C]

Threatening to do that again.

[A]

Part of his report about the latest. He said that the Islamic Republic of Japan shot 11 missiles.

[B]

It ends in an. Just like Iran. That's what's happening.

[A]

Islamic Republic of Japan. So he's just sharp as a tack.

[B]

Two good people, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, they're on it. But they're cuckoo. The Iranians. The Iranians are cuckoo. Tim, you can't really.

[C]

That's another thing he said.

[A]

Yeah. He said he'd been doing deals his whole life. Been doing deals his whole life. And these guys just don't seem like

[C]

they want to do a deal. They're dishonorable. Can't trust them.

[A]

Which does raise some questions for me, which is why did you have a

[C]

dramatic signing of the deal with them at Versailles? Treaty of Versailles.

[A]

Two Electric Boogaloo.

[C]

Make a huge, huge scene about it.

[A]

Have Emmanuel Macron there. Brigitte Macron. Big press. It was a birthday celebration.

[C]

And you made this massive scene with this huge deal that you signed that

[A]

harkened back to a historic deal that didn't really turn out that great in the end. And now two minutes later, you're like,

[C]

I'm a deal man. And you can't trust these guys.

[A]

It's like we just did the deal.

[B]

It was a fucking docusign. It was nothing. It was papering over, trying to paper over, calm the markets and get oil below $4 a gallon and just praying that it would work. There was nothing in this thing. They'd not resolved the fundamental issues. Setting aside even the nuclear program, which he has like zero interest in actually dealing with. Just the strait itself, like figuring out they, like, Iran has been given a golden goose. And that golden goose is living in a barn on the Ayatollah's property. And the US is like, you will give us the goose. And they're like, yeah, no, we don't think so. And they're like, okay, now you will give us the goose and you will give us half of the goose's eggs. And they're like, no, actually fuck off. Like, that's basically what's happened. They own the waterway now. They're going to continue to extract price prices for any ship going through it. The US has no leverage here because Trump is in a bind. This is a disaster of epic proportions. And of course oil prices have gone higher than ever. The only interesting thing that may come out of it is I think a reorientation of the US Israel relationship. Like that's like that, that's like overdue. And the conversation around that is overdue. And maybe that's like, I don't know. That's the, the one thing that I think is who knows where it's going. But that's the one interesting thing about all of this. But beyond that, what a colossal goat rodeo this is.

[A]

Yeah, oil prices are back up. We're not back up over the Landman line yet.

[C]

That's what I keep watching.

[A]

Billy Bump Thornton.

[B]

We on my show interviewed a gas station owner, a couple, first of all, interviewed two people of interest. If anybody hasn't listened to Runaway country, they should. It's an amazing podcast.

[A]

It is great.

[C]

We're get to one of the other episodes in a second.

[B]

Okay, I'll just be really quick on this then if we have promo later. But number one, we talked to a gas station owner and like, it is not like there is an established kind of baseline really for gas station owners to price the gallons, to put the number, the big ass numbers in like 38,000 font on the sign. Like they have some discretion and they're using their best gas based on of course the what it is per barrel, but also what other gas stations in the area are doing and impossibly where they think it's all going to. Gas prices are low because the oil industry is like, okay, we think this thing is coming to an end. Gas station owners are pricing it lower, but it's not because there's more oil flowing through the pipeline. That that stuff is all on delay. Like, gas prices are going to remain elevated and now they're going to go back up. The lowering of gas prices is kind of like an immediate response to a belief that the situation is calming. And the minute that that is no longer the case, which is now, those prices are going to continue to go up and they're going to remain so for months we've devastated the supply lines and the reserves and the storage facilities anyway. Whatever.

[A]

No, that's true. That's all good.

[C]

Thank you for doing that little sidebar. It's important. Yeah. Petro engineering sidebar.

[A]

The Pentagon's also running out of money.

[C]

We're going to have more on this tomorrow show. But like, you know, we're spending a ton of fuel, taxpayers money on this for nothing. We have no goal. The goal now is trying to get back to the baseline status quo and like that's not even going to happen.

[A]

And that's kind of where we are.

[C]

And they're escalating plans to escalate to question mark at this point. So that's the state of affairs with that.

[A]

He also is really mad at Spain. I want to read this quote to you.

[C]

We don't play his voice on the podcast. I fucked up last week. Since he won again, I've had a

[A]

strong policy of never playing strong, strong,

[C]

powerful policy of never playing his voice on the podcast.

[A]

And I don't know, I was multitasking and I was like, throw that in and post. And I had a couple complaints.

[C]

They're like, you made me hear his voice from listeners. So my apolog. Anyway, I will read it.

[A]

Spain is a wasted cause. We don't want to do any trade

[C]

business with Spain anymore. By the way, I'd like to cut it off. Spain is a terrible partner in Naito. Cut off all trade with Spain, including visits. They don't want to do anything to do. They're hopeless. That's Trump.

[B]

If you liked pankone tomato, you better get it.

[A]

I love pankone tomato and I love hormone. And Spain is definitely my sleeper favorite food. Like, is it my actual number one favorite food?

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

But like, but it is my sleeper favorite.

[C]

I am a hormone monster.

[A]

My vacation this summer does not. I'm a monster. My vacation this summer does not a

[C]

good Spain, which is devastating.

[A]

And now I'm like wondering if I need to do a quick side sidebar to go hoard Spanish cured meats.

[B]

You do is the answer. Bring an extra suitcase and stuff it with Iberico. Because, buddy, the only thing is, someone should tell Trump this. The EU doesn't negotiate trade trade agreements by country. It's as a union. That's why it's called the European Union. It's like Europe doesn't negotiate with Kentucky and negotiates with the United States. So that's a kink in his plan to, like, cut off all trade with the hopeless.

[C]

Spanish visas could be a problem, though. One of my besties is from Spain.

[B]

Oh, I'm sure.

[C]

I hope Abuelo and Abuela can come visit us this winter.

[B]

I believe that they will be able to, because as we know, Trump's tantrums usually last a couple months and then they're over. I just wanna say one thing, which is the whole NATO trip, nobody should be. I mean, yes, I guess we're gonna sell fighter jets, maybe to Turkey, and that's meaningful, but this is all just a. Like, the baby is mad because his rattle broke and everybody saw it break on the floor. And now he wants someone to blame. And he's gonna blame the Spaniards for not helping him in Iran, and he's gonna blame the British and the French. And this is all just an angry baby throwing a fit in Ankara so that he can, I don't know, seek some solace in his rage and find some resolution in his rage.

[A]

Seems like you pronounced it differently that time.

[B]

Did I say Ankara?

[A]

Seems like you pronounce it differently.

[B]

Well, you fucked me up.

[A]

All right.

[C]

Eric Edelman will tell us how to do it.

[A]

There are things in life that you don't want to be transparent. Like your search history or your swimsuit. Well, that kind of depends on what

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[C]

that I'm the most pissed about, which is the ICE stuff.

[A]

And I feel like it's come out of focus. And part of the reason why it's

[C]

come out of focus is kind of this move from Gnome to Mark Wayne Mullen created kind of a moment of like, well, let's wait and see how it turns out. I think that all of us obviously did not expect things to be better, but I think kind of in a media standpoint, it's like, okay, we'll continue to report on all this, but let's see if there's a change in policies. There's not been a change in policies. I want to get to the podcast I referenced earlier that you did on Runaway country with Melissa shepherd and Caitlin Dickerson. We talked about ICE detention facilities a couple weeks ago. You didn't lose your eye on, you didn't get your eye off the ball on it, but just a couple of things. New York Times from last week. Federal immigration officials detained more than 10,000 people in the last five days. This is at the end of June, a major surge that stemmed from a push within ICE to increase arrest rates. Some of the things happen with that surge. This is now back in March, but Bill Kristol wrote about this this morning and it got me really hot and angry. So I'm going to read a bit from the morning newsletter and then we'll

[A]

chat about the state of play. Mohammed Paktawal Yesterday morning, NBC reported on his death in ICE custody.

[C]

He's 41. He fought for a decade alongside US Special Forces in Afghanistan. He was evacuated when we pulled out in 2021. He entered the US legally. He became a truck driver, worked at a market and a bakery and had requested asylum to remain here. That claim was pending when I seized him for deportation at his home in Richardson, Texas, in March while he was getting his children ready for school. Pactewal Died the next day in ICE custody. His death certificate says he died from an adverse drug reaction to an unidentified substance. We do know from his wife that he relied on an inhaler from asthma and that ICE agents rejected her attempt to give the inhaler to them. When he was taken into custody, as Bill Kristol writes, he was not a criminal. He's not here illegally. He was a threat to no one. He died at the hands of ice. Like, he died because of ice. So a couple of other examples I want to talk about, but just to

[B]

say, like, he was here because he helped us.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Like, he literally sacrificed his safety, the safety of his family to help further, in theory, the principles of democracy and the values of the United States in his homeland. And this is how we treated him.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And this is the thing that takes

[C]

you back to the blinding rage.

[A]

You know, it's like there's no purpose of all this. And it's this.

[C]

Piers and I were arguing about this

[A]

yesterday, and it's like he was kind

[C]

of making the case, like, oh, well,

[A]

it's a good thing the border's secure. Yeah, the Biden border got out of control. But it's like what we're doing in

[C]

this administration is so different from what was happening at the border during the Obama administration. Plenty of things to criticize about that.

[A]

This is insane.

[C]

We are taking people like this man. This man in particular, like you said, helped our soldiers put himself in harm's way for America, and we still detained him and put him into a shithole prison where he died for absolutely no reason except for wanting to meet fucking Nazi Stephen Miller's quotas. But we're doing this with the Haitians. We're doing this.

[A]

The Venezuelans that we sent to El Salvador, a lot of these people came here legally or through a legal process

[B]

or had temporary protected status.

[A]

Yeah, legal pathway. Right. Like, not to say that you can treat humans like this, just if they

[C]

had snuck across the Rio Grande.

[A]

But, like, we are treating humans like this. That didn't do that.

[C]

That did try to go through the right process or the right pathway, and

[A]

they're still being menaced and detained by jackbooted thugs, and some of them are dying.

[C]

And so anyway, you talked about the situation in these prisons with Melissa Shepherd. Why don't you just talk a little bit about that?

[B]

She's a lawyer for some of the detainees. And I think insofar as we have seen Americans being murdered in the streets, and I think that's taken our eye off the ball. But there are 2,000 people being stolen and disappeared every day in this country because Stephen Miller wants to, you know, ICE agents to meet a 3,000 deportations a day quota. And once these detainees are taken into custody, the conditions that they are forced into are subhuman. They are not given clean water, they are not given enough food. They are separated from their children. There are hundreds of thousands of families that have been broken apart because of this. There are children in detention. They are not allowing any oversight. You see what happens when Congress people try and get into these ICE detention centers, these ICE prisons. And in many cases, you're grabbing people off the street and people are on medication. They need basic, they need their inhalers. And in the case of this, the Afghan soldier that you're talking about, his wife tried to give the ICE agents his inhaler and said he needs this and they wouldn't take it. And that when you talk about the 50 deaths in ICE custody this year, which is in a skyrocketingly high number, it's, I think now we don't have the information on all of this. It's because people don't have access to their basic medicine and, or they have. Melissa, the lawyer that we spoke to, said they'll have normal sort of routine issues, whether it's a cut or a hangnail or something that then escalates to a critical level. Critical because they're not given access to doctors or nurses or just basic medical care. And then it becomes really life threatening and they have to be rushed to the hospital. And often it's too late. That's outside of the people who are committing suicide in these jails because the situation is so grim. I mean, there's no sunlight on what's happening here. And now ICE is saying we're not going to really report on the number of deaths because they know it's a flashpoint for public interest. But what is happening on the streets is bad enough. What is happening sort of just by definition is bad. To steal people and disappear them, who've been living here for decades and who've been contributing to our American society and our, the foundation of our American economy, that's bad enough. But what's happening to them inside the detention centers in our name is utterly un American and totally unconstitutional. And the Trump administration would much rather we not talk about that and certainly doesn't want any debate to see what's happening.

[A]

And totally unnecessary is the other thing, like there's no reason for anybody to

[C]

be in detention that's not a criminal or that's not a threat to the community. Right.

[A]

It's like, okay, even if you are going to deport these people, and I'm

[C]

going to have differences of opinion with Republicans on who merits deportation, you can

[A]

wait for the process to go through,

[C]

and then once they have an order for removal, can give them an opportunity to appear or to remove themselves, or you can go to their home and remove them, which is again, not something that is pretty or that I would necessarily like.

[A]

But, like, that is a.

[C]

That is a process that you could go through that would be defensible. Like, putting people that, like, tried to

[A]

come through the process, through asylum, legally,

[C]

into some hole from some human prison and making them stay there for months on end is, like, insane.

[B]

Well, it's part of the strategy, I mean, and lawyers, I think, recognize that, too, is to make it so deplorable that people just give up, whether they kill themselves or they say, I'm not, it's self deportation. Right. It's a form of making it so bad that they can't abide it anymore. And they feel like the alternative of going back to a homeland that's dangerous or that there's no longer really a place they recognize.

[C]

So it's kind of like the Soviet Siberia strategy.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

That we're doing.

[B]

That's our actual policy. And can I just say, like, 2,000 people a day is a lot. And I've tried to get into how that's happening outside the public view, because they're seizing a large number of people as they go in for immigration hearings. They're seizing them off the street, they're seizing them at traffic stops. And there's been another death. You know, you talked about the death yesterday that was reported.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Here's this one, just really quick.

[A]

ICE agent shot and killed Lorenzo Araujo.

[C]

DHS is saying that he was using his vehicle as a weapon during the stop. During a traffic stop. We've heard that one before.

[B]

Yeah, we have.

[C]

They provided no actual evidence for that. No video evidence. He was in the car. Like, family members, his brother. Seems kind of a strange thing to do to try to do a suicide attack on ICE agents while you're in the car with your family. Lorenzo lived in America for 35 years, working construction here, trying to help support his family. I got shot by ICE agents yesterday.

[B]

Killed and was in the process of trying to get legal residency. Like, was in the pipeline, I believe, Right?

[C]

Yeah, no, that's right.

[B]

This is because this administration believes, and maybe rightly, that they can act with impunity when it comes to people of color. Like, this is in addition to, like, the Haitians and the Burmese and the Venezuelans and the Hondurans who were all here legally under temporary protected status. The Supreme Court just gave the green light to the Trump administration to revoke that status. And it is going to create both a crisis here. Like, we depend on Haitian home health care workers across the healthcare industry and at home. Like, Haiti can't absorb all these newly, like, deported Haitian refugees. There's no thought towards the consequence of these people because in the eyes of this administration, and I think in the eyes of some of the American public, they don't matter. I mean, how are these deportations happening? People are getting seized on the street still at traffic stops. They're getting murdered in the process. And like, where are we?

[A]

Yeah, well, it's actually kind of important.

[C]

It's an important part of the J.D. vance Vice President's conversion story to Catholicism. I was talking with Laura Ingram about this.

[A]

I mean, we have to let people

[C]

die in ICE detention. We have to let Catholic immigrants get shot by ICE agents. We've got to, like, send people into subhuman detention centers and we've got to deport them back to hell holes where they're probably not going to be able to survive because, like, of the Catholic

[A]

doctrine that like, working white Americans need

[C]

to have, like, the dignity of a

[A]

paycheck and if their paycheck is like

[C]

at all diminished by the fact that there is an immigrant in their community, like, that's kind of UN Catholic, actually. So it's an interesting Catholic teaching. I went to Catholic school for 13 years.

[A]

Don't recall that I was raised Catholic.

[B]

I also don't remember that part of, like, the persecution and the dehumanization of the poor and the brown and the undocumented as being part of Jesus's teachings. But, I mean, I maybe missed Sunday school that day.

[A]

Yeah, we wouldn't have to wait.

[C]

Maybe it was Antonin Scalia's brother is a priest in D.C. maybe we'll have

[A]

to ask him for a briefing. The silly section of the podcast. How do you pivot from the thing that makes you the most fucking pissed in the world? At the beginning when I was like, I'm red eyed with rage and sometimes it clouds my judgment. Like, this is why we're fucking killing

[C]

people, that we're serving alongside our soldiers in Afghanistan for no reason at all. So it is enraging. So we'll just do a breath. Should we do just an Ujjayi Breath.

[B]

We've maximized our rage. We've hit the ceiling of rage, and we need to come back down off the ceiling.

[C]

Okay, we're gonna do some Ujjayi breaths. All right.

[B]

Ujjayi breaths. Do you go to yoga? Is that a thing for you?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[E]

No.

[A]

Yoga was an important part of my

[C]

personal journey after Trump won the first time.

[A]

This rage I've been talking about on this podcast is what I think a mostly. Not entirely a mostly healthy rage at

[C]

the injustices of the administration and what we're doing to people.

[A]

At the beginning of Trump 1, I

[C]

had kind of a consuming personal rage that was unhealthy.

[A]

It was unhealthy, but it was, like,

[C]

mostly about how, like, these people that I knew personally and who were horrible people and had made horrible judgments, like, were now, like, getting rewarded. It's like the opposite, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

This kind of thing you have to learn as a child that, like, life isn't fair. Good things happen to bad people. Like, that kind of thing wasn't.

[A]

It wasn't like, a jealousy. Like, I didn't want to be in there, but I was, like, kind of

[C]

mad that they were happy. Incensed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's not healthy or good.

[B]

That's cancerous.

[C]

Yeah, cancerous.

[A]

So I went to.

[C]

Yoga was an important part of the recovery from that. Yeah.

[B]

Do you talk about. I'm an avid Bulwark listener, and I feel like I did not know.

[A]

Well, maybe you weren't avid then.

[C]

It was before I took over the podcast.

[A]

Like, you know, so I've done less yoga. This was like, 21. The bulwark's been around forever. Time flies. But, yeah, this was probably 20, 19, 20, back in the. For the OGS, this was back in,

[C]

like, the Thursday night Bulwark era.

[A]

I wouldn't talk about that.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

That's like, maybe I didn't have a computer then.

[C]

So, yeah, this was OG time.

[A]

But, yeah, no, I was. There was a ladies yoga collective in Oakland.

[C]

It's not around anymore. I promote them.

[B]

This is very on brand. Can you do headstands and stuff?

[C]

I didn't ever get that good. No.

[A]

But I'm pretty good.

[B]

No Ijayi breath. So that's.

[C]

Yeah, I'm pretty good. But, yeah, I never. I don't. I have my butt anyway. We'll talk about my lanky limbs and my lack of power. I've got weaknesses.

[B]

He's not one of them.

[C]

Shout out to Trina and Jamila, though.

[A]

Okay. Potpourri. Do we want to do My final three topics for us are Taylor's wedding, the flyover at the 4th of July,

[C]

and the potential sex podcast.

[B]

Oh, my God. Two out of three I'm fired up about.

[A]

Okay, which one are you not fired up about?

[B]

The flyover. I'm going to admit I'm okay.

[A]

Well, let's do it real quick because maybe you're not fired up about it

[C]

because you don't really know exactly what happens.

[B]

I saw the headlines.

[A]

Here we go. A dispute among cabinet officials broke out over who could ride in fighter jets flying over D.C. on July 4th. The dispute escalated to President Trump himself, who gave the go ahead only to Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche over objections from Transportation Secretary Sean duff. Everyone is 12 girls.

[B]

You're all pretty. You're all pretty.

[A]

And they all wanted. Lutnick, Nutlik. They all wanted to be able to fly in the pretty jets over the mall. And there were some safety concerns expressed by Sean Duffy. Unclear whether he's being responsible or was jealous. Childhood jealousy.

[B]

He's a transportation secretary. The jets are his purview. God damn it. Todd.

[A]

Todd. Got to fly. You go into the Oval Office. Mr. President, sir, someone in the Transportation Department has said that I can't go on a joyride in the plane over the mall. Dad, Daddy, will you call the principal?

[B]

Dad, Sean's saying I can't take a ride in the plane.

[D]

What?

[B]

Todd.

[A]

Teddy, will you call the principal? Other kids are being mean to me on the playground.

[B]

This is it. This is the internal dynamics of the Trump White House.

[A]

So there you go.

[B]

A group of selfish, peevish 12 year olds.

[A]

I think we have a disagreement on the next topic, but I love your passion about it. An entire newsletter about the Taylor Swift wedding.

[B]

I'm appalled by it.

[A]

You were appalled.

[C]

Here was my opinion on the Taylor Swift wedding. Please don't talk to me about the Taylor Swift wedding.

[B]

I couldn't avoid it. I was on my vacation and it was like I was getting news alerts about, you know, Paul Rudd arriving in his suv.

[A]

I had friends sending me things. I tried to avoid it. I don't. I know very little about it. I learned that Taylor and Travis Both gave 20 minute vows, which feels they

[B]

read from Golden Books. Personal Golden Books. They read their vows from.

[A]

I guess my one take on it was that getting married at a princess wedding in Madison Square Garden kind of feels like what the daughter of the biggest car dealer in North Jersey would do for their wedding. Also, whatever makes you happy. Your kids happy. So you had a more harsh take.

[B]

I just felt like it was so late. Stage imperial decline. Like the idea that you're having a wedding at Madison Square garden and it's 22,000 seats in there. They cover the whole thing in pink chiffon. And then inconvenience the NYPD, involve the mayor. It's the 4th of July weekend when everyone's trying to get out of town. Madison Square Garden's dead in the center of Town between 7th and 8th Avenues. That's monstrously egotistical. But then that they're inviting a thousand of their very closest friends, including, like, Wayne Gretzky and Steven Spielberg. I mean, I'm sure they've had passing interactions with these people, but the TV show Graham Norton was like, why are you inviting me? Like, I don't. We're not.

[A]

George Stephanopoulos was there.

[B]

Yes, exactly. I mean, Michael Strahan and msn.

[A]

Billy's played football.

[B]

It's fucking insane. But whatever. Guest list. But it's really the icing on the cake for me was inside the event as all these SUVs arrive and the celebrities go inside. They have raffles for Cartier watches and jewelry and handbags and cars. And it's like, man, this is such excess. And I get it. You're like an incredible musician and you've made a lot of money, and hats off to you. But what. What a senseless, just utterly degraded way of spending that money at a moment when everybody. It's like. It's like Marie Antoinette. It's like, I have my petit Trianon at Madison Square Garden, and I'll live there with my decadence, and you all can eat cake. I know they gave $26 million to charity, but it seems so out of sync. I mean, to me, it's like it exemplifies American decline, that we lust after these celebrities that could give a fuck about the reality that is being lived by most people in this country and just have amassed these incalculable sums of wealth and literally don't even know what to spend it on. Do you think Brad Pitt needs a Cartier watch? He's a fucking, like, Omega spokesperson. Like, this is just. It's insane. It's excessive and wasteful and insane. And it really bothered me. And it was, you know, twinned with Trump's outrageous Fourth of July circle jerk, basically on the mall. And, like, this is the news that was coming across my transom when I was on vacation overseas.

[C]

This is why I'm turning off the Twitter machine on vacation. I'm asking the audience for accountability. I want you to monitor my Twitter feed when I'm on vacation. If you see a retweet, you'll know I did bad.

[A]

I don't know.

[C]

I'll have to come up with an email for you to contact.

[A]

I want to. We'll have an agreement in part and a dissent. The agreement I want to offer is

[C]

the guest list was preposterous and I think soulless.

[A]

And this is a very D.C. thing.

[C]

But it's kind of like in a

[A]

celebrity fashion, just DC people have weddings

[C]

and then like, invite like, random other important DC people that they aren't friends with.

[A]

Maybe at the, like, the smallest level of this. Like when I was just like. I, like, just got my first important.

[C]

I forget if it was Jeb or

[A]

Romney or what, but, like, some guy who's, like, older than me, it was another comms guy like me sees me at a part.

[C]

I think it was a correspondence dinner party.

[A]

And he was like, hey, I'm getting married and in two months.

[C]

Can I send you an invite?

[A]

He didn't have my number. He didn't have my. And I was like, we're not friends. I was like, this is so strange. Like, when me and Tyler got married, there were like seven D.C. people there. You know, I was like, I have friends. Like, I have actual friends from life that I want to celebrate my wedding with. And it's like, why would you want to celebrate your wedding with me? Who you know from Twitter and. But it's like a kind of a

[C]

common DC thing, I think, to do, have the wedding be a networking event, transactional. And I do find that very sad. And so I'm a little bit sad for Taylor and Travis on that front.

[A]

The descent from a note here from a 25 year fan.

[C]

It's a producer note.

[A]

Yeah, Maybe tacky, but there was maybe

[C]

security concern with the TNT wedding at a chateau or some other luxury site

[A]

with leak drones, guys.

[B]

Oh, right. Cause getting married in the middle of New York City.

[D]

No.

[B]

Like, what?

[A]

All right. I just wanted to offer a defense.

[B]

I mean. And listen, I know there are swifties out there and I. I just. I'm sorry. Like, I just think bad choices were made.

[A]

Finally. What were we talking about? What was the sex advice we were doing on the last podcast that started this kind of ongoing effort for you to bully me into doing a sex podcast with you? Do you remember? I should have looked up this. We have to go back to the archives. I don't remember the last time you were on, which was too long ago.

[B]

So gays and straights, maybe. And like, you're one to talk about the homosexual lifestyle.

[C]

I do like talking about the homosexual lifestyle.

[A]

So, yeah, I went back to book to the archive. It's been a minute. So we're moving into a quarterly visit that we're gonna start having.

[C]

Just so you know. I'm just letting you know now. So start getting your calendar out.

[B]

I'm in.

[C]

This is too good to only do twice a year.

[A]

Whatever we talked about prompted you're like, we should do a spinoff thing where politics is wearing us down. It was earlier in the Trump administration and it's like, it would be fun to do a side for that.

[B]

You're underselling this. It wasn't like, oh, this is a lark. It was like, like the essence of all the conflict. I believe this is actually how we got started. The essence of all the conflict in the political sphere, social and cultural, is sex power that attends sex. I mean, look at the. We're talking about Platner, right? Like, sex is at the root of so much of the chaos, disagreement and partisanship, honestly, whether people are getting laid, whether they aren't getting laid, whether they're being cuckolded.

[A]

Yeah. Going on Dan Savage's podcast, I always love. He hasn't invited me on in a minute. What's the problem with that too?

[B]

I'd like to go into. But I'm just saying, I think you could have a sex focused podcast that looked at the world through the lens

[A]

of sex and then. But also did some, like, audience and

[B]

then also just talked about, like, you know, I don't know, reverse Carl gal girl or whatever. Like, you know, like. But you won't do it.

[A]

I'm. I.

[B]

Listeners chime in if you think I

[C]

don't think I should do it.

[B]

Tim should do a sex podcast.

[A]

I think people know.

[B]

Make you divulge, like, stories from your 20s. I'm not going to do that.

[A]

4 40s.

[C]

Shut up.

[A]

I'm still.

[C]

I'm still active.

[A]

I'm still. Okay. So as a trial run. As a trial run, I thought the final topic, and I don't want to

[C]

pick on her personally, Graham's wife, because it's obviously a tough time.

[A]

So I just. I want to like, basically kind of anonymize that encounter and say, somebody came

[C]

to you, Alex Wagner, and said, hello,

[A]

I'm in my 40s. Everybody's still alive here. But like a later in life marriage. We don't know if we'll be able to have kids. Husband, you know, it's a little bit of a Bond Vivant. He's been out there. Bon Vivant. Got a husband that's out there, you know, And I've discovered that he has a kick profile with a shirtless picture

[C]

of himself in the 40s.

[A]

And we're working through it. Like, how big of a red flag

[C]

is having a kick profile in a straight marriage if you're a wife?

[B]

Wait, I'm gonna. Really? What's a Kik profile?

[A]

Okay. Kik is like a. Like a sexy app.

[B]

Oh, it's like field.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I don't actually. No, I don't think so. What else is Kik for? Do we know? Kik's like a messaging app. It's kind of like a Snapchat. Yeah, it's more like a Snapchat.

[B]

But, like, you're asking me if this. I was in this situation and we were already married or we were dating on the press of getting married.

[C]

Already married. Yeah.

[B]

No, this is a huge red flag because can I just say, it's one thing to be like, I got drunk and I hit on the someone I work with or someone I met in a bar. You have to sit down. Like, have you done a dating profile? I have, and I'm never doing one again. It's not. Don't recommend one out of ten.

[A]

Were you on Raya?

[B]

Listen, we're not going to talk about all that. See how bad sex.

[A]

How can we have a sex podcast

[C]

if you're not going to talk about your Raya profile?

[B]

I was on Raya. I was on Raya, and I was like, nobody would ever get back to me. And I was like, what is this? Like, this is. And it was just comedians and tour photographers that were, like, like, messaging. It just. It didn't work. It was not a good app for me. But it takes time. You have to be focused. You have to be, like, really wanting to set up a product.

[A]

And you have to take the picture

[C]

of yourself in the dirty mirror where you're shirtless.

[B]

And by the way, you're not using the first photo you took. Like, you're combing through your photo library. You're, like, doing different angles. You're playing with lighting, et cetera. Like, that's a concerted effort to cheat, a concerted effort to get your goods on the market. It's like a cheap way of stepping out on your lady. I just think it's a huge red flag. I don't believe that there's, like, that redemption is a lost goal necessarily, but that's a pretty big transgression in My book.

[A]

Yeah. You know, it's one thing.

[C]

Here would be my advice to the lady.

[A]

It kind of depends on what a woman is looking for. I think that it's okay to decide,

[C]

like, once you're past your childbearing years for both the man and the woman

[A]

that, like, you want companionship and, like, you. Like a man that, like, you know, is a little bit of a. What's. What would be the right word, you know, some coxman. Coxman. You like a man that's a little bit of a coxman. And, like, you have a relationship, and it's like, hey, this is a committed relationship. But also, you know, I understand what

[C]

I'm signing up for here.

[B]

Like, I think there's transparency following the marriage.

[A]

That doesn't seem like that's what was happening here.

[B]

No, dude. And I just read the book Crush, which is a good summer read about a man who tries to open up his marriage.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it doesn't. I mean, it's really complicated stuff. I don't. I mean, I know some people who have open marriages, and they've been doing it since they were day one. Day one. And that's a different thing entirely. Cause that's, like, part of your marriage DNA.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But to do it after. After years of monogamy or purported monogamy, I think is way more complicated and way more perilous. Treacherous territory.

[A]

Red flags were everywhere. Okay. If only they'd called Alex before. If only everybody. If only everybody had called Alex. If only everybody listened to the Beer Man, Dan Cleban and Alex Wagner last winter.

[C]

Things would be very different right now.

[B]

Dan Kieban is one of our guests on Runaway country this week.

[A]

Oh, really? Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How about that? What an unintentional promo. We'll leave it there. You can't end a podcast any better than that. That's Alex Wagner. Go check out Runaway country, and we'll be back here. We do it every day, so we'll see you tomorrow.

[B]

Pedestrian.

[A]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.