The Bulwark Podcast

Episode Summary: Alex Wagner: Team Trump Can't Get Its Epstein Story Straight

November 13, 2025 | Host: Tim Miller | Guest: Alex Wagner

Overview

In this episode, Tim Miller (The Bulwark) is joined by Alex Wagner (host of “Runaway Country” from Crooked Media and Substack writer) for an incisive, candid, and often darkly humorous look at the political fallout from the latest Jeffrey Epstein-Trump email leaks. The discussion touches on Trumpworld’s incoherent defenses, the strange behavior of powerful men around Epstein, and the broader implications for American politics as the 2026 elections loom.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Epstein-Trump Email Leaks: New Revelations & Reactions

• Volume of Material: Twenty thousand pages of Epstein-related email leaks have surfaced, with significant mentions of Donald Trump and other prominent figures ([01:18]).
• Key Figures: These include Trump spending hours with Epstein victim Virginia Giuffre at Trump’s own home; Ghislaine Maxwell’s communications about Trump; and shocking evidence about how much Trump knew.
• Noteworthy Email: Epstein wrote to Katherine Rummler (Obama White House counsel): “You see, I know how dirty Donald is.” ([02:34])

Memorable Quote

“There’s no getting around that. And Donald Trump’s feigned innocence in all of this... it’s like, so clearly an insider’s deal. And to the degree that Democrats... can tie this to the overall corruption of this administration and the protection of the powerful and wealthy—this is the best case in point. The enabler of Epstein is maybe gonna get off for heinous crimes because she has dirt on the president.”
— Alex Wagner ([04:09])

• Maxwell’s Prison Privileges: Tim recounts reporting that Maxwell is receiving unprecedented special treatment in federal prison—an outlier case that raises more questions ([05:02]).
• Trump White House Response: The official line is an incoherent deflection—calling it both a “manufactured hoax” and at the same time using the redacted victim’s quote (“Trump was a perfect gentleman”) as supposed exoneration ([08:30]).

Memorable Exchange

Tim Miller: “So what you’re saying—your spin here is that Trump spent hours alone with an underage girl... at the child sex trafficker’s house for hours, and she said he didn’t do anything to her. Well, okay.” ([07:07])
Alex Wagner: “I mean, I guess it was just babysitting stuff.” ([07:40])

2. Trumpworld’s Incoherent Spin

• Contradictory Defenses: The Trump camp can’t settle on a narrative—it’s simultaneously a “hoax,” but also “he was a gentleman,” but also “he kicked Epstein out” ([09:53]).
• Alex’s Observation: Trump made Epstein a campaign talking point, using conspiracy narratives against Democrats despite knowing he was also implicated ([10:10]).
• Trump’s Mindset: Tim connects Trump’s attitude to the Access Hollywood tape ethos: “if you’re a star, they let you do it,” suggesting Trump may not see his actions as wrong even if they are exploitative ([11:33]).

Memorable Quote

“It is the behavior of a madman... [using] this as a cudgel on a campaign because I have Teflon on this sort of stuff. Then why cover it up now? Maybe it’s worse than he realized.”
— Tim Miller ([13:03])

3. Global Conspiracies, Cover-Ups, and the Epstein Web

• Epstein’s Ties: Emails show Epstein in contact with Russian and Israeli officials, Bannon, and European power brokers—fueling every elite cabal theory imaginable ([15:31]).
• Suspicion Deepens: A meeting in the White House Situation Room with Lauren Boebert and key Trump allies, likely about the next block of releases, raises even more red flags ([18:05]).

Memorable Exchange

Tim Miller: “Why was this meeting in the Situation Room? You could meet anywhere. She is meeting in the Situation Room with Bondi, Boebert, Rubio...” ([18:05])
Alex Wagner: "Again, it does not assuage one’s paranoid suspicions, right?” ([18:11])

4. Political Fallout & Prospects

• Partisan Entrenchment: Despite the gravity of revelations, Alex doubts many MAGA supporters will be moved (“the MAGA appetite for revealing the truth has lessened”) ([21:04]).
• Importance for Democrats: To have a major impact, Democrats must tie the Epstein revelations to a larger narrative about Trumpian corruption and system rigging—not just another Trump scandal involving women ([22:00]).
• Other Democrats & Elites: The files expose embarrassing and cringeworthy communications from figures like Larry Summers—seeking “lady advice” from Epstein and generally behaving like adolescent boys ([24:35]).

Sociological Takeaway

“The emails from the pathetic rich guys were to me, almost outside of politics, the most interesting takeaway... These rich, powerful old men are like 11 year old boys talking about the crush that they have and they’re asking Jeffrey Epstein for advice.”
— Tim Miller ([25:55])

• Broader Implications: Emails show how sexual insecurity and the search for validation undergird both elite misbehavior and contemporary political grievance—fueling toxic masculinity across party lines ([27:42]).

5. Shut Down Politics – Democratic Strategy & Critique

• Tim’s Victory Lap: Defends the Democrats’ handling of the shutdown as a tactical win, enabling further action on issues like Epstein’s files ([32:19]).
• Alex’s Counterpoint: While some wins are real, the party’s leadership and messaging are often flat, and the impact on the truly vulnerable can be devastating ([33:58]).
• Need for Smarter Politics: Both agree Democratic messaging and organization must dramatically improve for the larger existential fight against Trumpism ([37:41]).

6. Polling & Trump Weakness

• Poll Data: New surveys show rising regret and disappointment among 2020 Trump voters—citing the shutdown, the economy, and broken promises ([38:21]).
• Left/Right Critique: Even MAGA influencers like Nick Fuentes and Candace Owens are publicly dissatisfied, criticizing Trump’s donor-driven priorities and his handling of “Epstein Files” promises ([42:11]).

Memorable Quote

“On top of that, he’s not giving them the Epstein files which they wanted. So there is a way to tie it all together. He’s in tough straits. Can the Democrats message against it?”
— Tim Miller ([43:01])

7. Democratic Big Tent: Strength or Weakness?

• Coalition Tensions: The pair discuss whether the Democrats’ wide-ranging coalition—from anti-capitalists to former Republicans—is sustainable after Trump ([44:48]).
• Alex’s Concern: Without a unifying charismatic figure (“the sheer force of personality”), the big tent could fracture in post-Trump politics ([47:03]).

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|-------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:09 | Alex Wagner | “The enabler of one of Trump’s sick party guys, AKA Jeffrey Epstein, is maybe gonna get off for heinous crimes because she has dirt on the president.” | | 07:07 | Tim Miller | “So what you’re saying—your spin here is that Trump spent hours alone with an underage girl... at the child sex trafficker’s house for hours, and she said he didn’t do anything to her. Well, okay.” | | 09:53 | Tim/Alex (exchange) | “He was a gentleman. But it’s a hoax.” / “But it’s a total hoax.” | | 11:33 | Tim Miller | “The only text you really need to understand of Trump is the audio from the Access Hollywood tape: if you’re a star, they let you do it.” | | 14:15 | Alex Wagner | “You put together, of course Trump knew about the girls. The fact that he’s spending hours, you know, at Epstein’s house with victims...” | | 21:04 | Alex Wagner | “I just feel like the MAGA appetite... for revealing the truth has lessened... it is such an indictment of Trump given how much his name appears in all of this.” | | 25:55 | Tim Miller | “The emails from the pathetic rich guys were to me... the most interesting takeaway... These rich, powerful old men are like 11 year old boys talking about their crush.” | | 34:21 | Alex Wagner | “...this was a stress test for how much and how far Democrats are willing to go in the face of an authoritarian. Maybe if they had spun it differently...” | | 47:03 | Alex Wagner | “That’s gonna require one fucking hell of a personality, right? Like, you could argue that Obama was able to paper over divisions within the Democratic Party because everyone just liked him so damn much.” |

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:18] – Introduction to Epstein file leak details; Trump’s proximity to Virginia Giuffre
• [04:09] – Maxwell seeking pardon; potential for quid pro quo with Trump
• [07:07] – Trump team’s contradictory spin on the emails
• [10:10] – Trump using Epstein as a campaign cudgel
• [13:03] – Analysis of Trump’s underlying psychology, Access Hollywood tape reference
• [15:31] – Epstein’s emails linking him to Russians, Israelis, and global elite
• [18:05] – High-level (Situation Room) White House meeting about Epstein file release
• [24:35] – Pathetic emails from powerful men like Larry Summers
• [32:19] – Government shutdown politics and the Democratic response
• [38:21] – Polling suggests Trump is at his weakest point since January 6th
• [44:48] – Discussion on whether the Democratic Party’s big tent can hold in 2028

Tone & Language

• Direct, unsparing, and sometimes darkly humorous; Tim and Alex balance serious analysis with relatable anecdotes and sharp wit.
• Willingness to satirize the absurdities and pathologies of the political class and the broader system.
• Unvarnished language and openness about the psychological and social pathologies among elites.

Final Thoughts

Tim Miller and Alex Wagner brilliantly dissect the tangled Epstein-Trump connections and the illogical contortions of Team Trump’s defense. They analyze the deeper rot exposed by these scandals—powerful men’s emotional immaturity, the normalization of corruption, and the challenges of coalition-building in a fractured polity. The show ultimately argues that, while these revelations are damning, their full political impact depends on whether Democrats can integrate them into a compelling narrative about corruption and elitism—or risk letting another Trump scandal become white noise.

Episode Highlight

“The emails from the pathetic rich guys were to me... the most interesting takeaway... rich, powerful old men are like 11-year-old boys asking Jeffrey Epstein for advice about crushes. And if they weren’t emailing the most notorious child sex trafficker, you’d almost feel sad for them.”
— Tim Miller ([25:55])

For more: Check out Alex Wagner’s “Runaway Country” for deeper dives into stories at the intersection of politics, power, and real-world impacts.