Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: Alex Wagner - The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift

Episode Overview In this riveting episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a compelling discussion with Alex Wagner, an MSNBC host currently on a special assignment reporting on the first hundred days of the second Trump administration for the limited podcast series Trumpland. The conversation delves deep into the political maneuvers, policy shifts, and the overarching theme of corruption and grift that characterizes the current administration. Through incisive analysis and insightful commentary, Miller and Wagner unpack the implications of Trump's actions, the role of influential figures like Elon Musk, and the broader sociocultural impacts on American democracy.

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Trumpland: Analyzing the Second Trump Presidency

Understanding the Title "Trumpland"

• [00:38] Alex Wagner: "I mean, we live in Trumpland. It's just the reality of the situation. I hate to break it to everybody. It may not be forever, but that's where we're at."

Wagner explains the strategic choice behind the title "Trumpland," emphasizing that the focus extends beyond Trump himself to the broader societal and political landscape shaped by his administration.

Impact Beyond the Individual

• [01:02] Alex Wagner: "We're looking at Trumpland not just through the lens of Trump, but the people also affected by Trumpism and his policies and promises. So it's not just about the dude. In fact, I would say it's a lot less about the dude and more about the sort of broader contours of the country he's creating."

This perspective underscores the systemic changes and the ripple effects of Trump's policies on various facets of American life.

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Rebranding America: The Gulf of America and More

Renaming Geographic Landmarks

• [01:55] Unnamed White House Press Secretary: "The body of water off the coast of Louisiana is called the Gulf of America, and I'm not sure why news outlets don't want to call it that, but that is what it is."

Tim Miller and Wagner critique the administration's attempts to rename established geographic locations, highlighting the absurdity and political motivations behind such moves.

Public Reception and Resistance

• [02:16] Tim Miller: "That's a fact."

Both hosts express skepticism and amusement at the administration's insistence on "facts" that align with their narrative, illustrating the disconnect between government statements and public perception.

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The Tesla Conundrum: Armored Electric Vehicles and Corruption

Government Procurement of Tesla Vehicles

• [06:35] Tim Miller: "The Trump administration is set to purchase $400 million worth of armored Tesla vehicles... Now Tesla's name has been removed."

The discussion pivots to the controversial procurement of armored Tesla vehicles by the Trump administration, raising questions about transparency and favoritism.

Elon Musk's Influence and Public Perception

• [08:21] Tim Miller: "It means they're conscious of it for sure."

Wagner dissects Elon Musk's role within the administration, suggesting that his involvement symbolizes deeper issues of corruption and entitlement, contrasting him with Trump’s own populist appeal.

Joe Rogan's Take on Elon Musk

• [08:35] Joe Rogan: "Elon's gonna steal everybody's money... he's a super genius that's been fucked with... he's going to fucking hunt you down."

A clip from Joe Rogan is analyzed to illustrate public figures’ mixed perceptions of Musk, blending admiration with fear.

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Operational Challenges: Electric Vehicles on the Battlefield

Practicality of Electric Armored Vehicles

• [10:18] Alex Wagner: "An electric vehicle on the battlefield is, like, the definition of wokeism."

The hosts debate the practicality and symbolism of deploying electric vehicles in military operations, critiquing the intersection of technology and political ideology.

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RFK Jr. as Secretary of Health and Human Services

Confirmation and Its Implications

• [15:56] Alex Wagner: "The Trump administration is about to install someone at HHS who has, like, zero capacity to deal with any kind of national health crisis."

Wagner voices concerns over the appointment of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as Secretary of Health and Human Services, questioning his ability to manage ongoing public health issues like bird flu and its economic repercussions.

Bird Flu and Economic Impact

• [16:00] Alex Wagner: "They're very worried about what bird flu is doing to egg prices and dairy prices... It's a problem for the Trump administration on a practical, really practical level."

The conversation highlights how public health crises directly affect the economy and the administration’s ability to address these challenges effectively.

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Masculinity, Traditionalism, and DEI Efforts

Defining Masculine Maximalism

• [22:23] Tim Miller: "President or Trump land... a very big digital picture frame from Aura Frames."

Wagner and Miller explore the concept of "masculine maximalism," critiquing how certain leaders embody a toxic form of masculinity that undermines progressive values.

War on Woke and DEI Purges

• [34:37] Alex Wagner: "The War on Woke. The war on Woke."

The hosts discuss the administration's efforts to eliminate Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives from federal agencies, describing it as a targeted attack on specific communities and the broader institution of civic service.

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Resistance and Public Engagement

Legal and Political Resistance

• [36:15] Alex Wagner: "Inspectors general are not a bunch of liberal party animals... they're going to fight back in the most buttoned up, lawful way possible."

Wagner highlights the multifaceted resistance against the administration, encompassing both legal battles led by inspectors general and broader public dissent.

Public Apathy and Engagement

• [42:35] Tim Miller: "The new resistance to Donald Trump's presidency had a plan."

The discussion underscores a concerning level of public apathy and desensitization, questioning why more Americans are not actively opposing the administration’s policies.

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Field Reporting Insights

Empathy and On-the-Ground Realities

• [30:23] Alex Wagner: "Talking to the January 6th families... it has cultivated a sense of chaos and pain more acutely."

Wagner shares insights from her field reporting, emphasizing the emotional toll and personal stories that bring the political narrative to life, beyond abstract debates.

Personal Reflections on Resistance

• [34:02] Tim Miller: "There needs to be consequences to risky choices, or else we're in Trumpland forever."

Miller reflects on his own internal conflict between empathy for those suffering under the administration and frustration with the lack of effective resistance.

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Concluding Thoughts: The Path Forward

Mobilizing Effective Resistance

• [45:28] Alex Wagner: "There needs to be more targeted and specific protests with clear demands."

The hosts advocate for a more organized and focused approach to resistance, moving beyond generalized marches to targeted actions that address specific policies and actions.

Future Outlook

• [49:34] Alex Wagner: "He is working... it's bad news."

As the episode wraps up, Wagner underscores the relentless efforts of the administration and the pressing need for sustained and meaningful opposition to safeguard democratic institutions.

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Final Reflection This episode of The Bulwark Podcast serves as a critical examination of the ongoing political dynamics under the second Trump administration. Through informed dialogue and firsthand accounts, Miller and Wagner shed light on the intricate web of policy decisions, public perceptions, and resistance efforts that shape the current American political landscape. Listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the challenges facing liberal democracy and the imperative for active engagement in defending democratic norms.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We're still in the first month of the Trump second presidency, apparently, and I'm with somebody that's going to try to help us figure it out. You would have usually found her hosting Alex Wagner tonight on MSNBC with me as a guest occasionally. But through April 30, she's on special assignment for the limited MSNBC podcast series Trumpland, with Alex Wagner reporting on the first hundred days of the second Trump administration. It's Alex Wagner, and we're in Trumpland, I guess. How's that going?

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, we live in Trumpland. It's just the reality of the situation. I hate to break it to everybody. It may not be forever, but that's where we're at.

[Tim Miller]

Do you have any, like, pushback on the title? Just like, having to, you know, just for mental health purposes, or we just are accepting.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, there is a fine calculation between how much the word Trump in any given title is an attractant or a repellent.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

So I do think, though, I mean, we're looking at Trumpland not just through the lens of Trump, but the people also affected by Trumpism and his policies and promises. So it's not just about the dude. In fact, I would say it's a lot less about the dude and more about the sort of broader contours of the country he's creating.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's very little about the dude. Actually, we're gonna do a bunch on the pod. I was binging it yesterday. We have a couple news items that we have to get to first, though, if you don't mind.

[Alex Wagner]

Please go. It's your podcast.

[Tim Miller]

We have a new I'd like turning the tables. I relish.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm a terrible guest. I am a terrible guest. But I'm telling you that now that I'm already booked and we've started this.

[Tim Miller]

It'S going to be great. I relish putting the host in the guest seat. I'll bring out the best guest in you, I promise. All right. We have a new edict from the Capitol. The Dear Leader's mouthpiece was asked about the banishment of the Associated Press from the press room yesterday. I want to take a listen to what she had to say about that.

[Unnamed White House Press Secretary]

I was very upfront in my briefing on day one that if we feel that there are lies being pushed by outlets in this room, we are going to hold those lies accountable. And it is a fact that the body of water off the coast of Louisiana is called the Gulf of America, and I'm not sure why news outlets don't want to call it that, but that is what it is.

[Tim Miller]

That's a fact.

[Alex Wagner]

That's a fact.

[Tim Miller]

That's a fact.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, this is like, my question. It's like, can you imagine, by the way, can you imagine the crowd size is debate litigated in Trump 2.0? I mean, I feel like you would have.

[Tim Miller]

I think we have that clip, actually. Let's go. Can we hear another fact? Can we get that other clip really quick? This was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration, period, both in person and around the globe.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, can I just say, the difference between then and now is it was just stupid Sean Spicer embarrassing himself, you know, like becoming a national parody, and now there's actual retribution. The idea that the apartment is not being allowed in is being punished for adhering to reality is not good. Tim. Very George Orwell, all of this.

[Tim Miller]

I guess another difference is they're making their facts real. You know, like the Google machine and Apple have changed the name of the Gulf here as well.

[Alex Wagner]

What's next? I mean, what's next? Like, when you talk about Trump, President Trump, you have to now, by law, say the greatest president in American history. When you print the words President Trump, I mean, like, sky's the limit, right? It's a fact.

[Tim Miller]

I'm shocked that I haven't tried to change anything to Trump. I'm annoyed that we went back to Mount McKinley. I want Mount Trump. I want to just go all in.

[Alex Wagner]

Listen from your mouth to Trump's ears. I do not think this is the end of this. If he can win at renaming large bodies of water just on a whim, what's to stop him from calling it the United States of Trump? I mean, I kid, but I do think this sets it an unbelievably bad.

[Tim Miller]

President or Trump land. I gotta tell you, I know this is serious now. I know that the media. There's a free speech question here. The folks at Fire, the good free speech advocates have been defending the ap, which. Which I appreciate. It's just really funny. I don't know, there's something about her being like. It is a fact. It is a fact that I find it seems a little desperate and funny. No, Is it not funny?

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, I guess there's like a certain, like, you know, Chekhovian, like, there's like a very. Chris Hayes and I were talking about this yesterday. There's like a very Russian kind of, like, dark humor embedded in all of this. Right. Like, it's so absurd. The so absurd, but it's real. I mean, like, the consequences are real. And as absurd as this all seems, this is what's happening to our country.

[Tim Miller]

It is absurd. I was thinking about this yesterday. I was like, if I got into a time machine, flew back to 2015 and went to a gaggle of reporters, or even better, like a gaggle of conservative media reporters went on Fox. If I had gone on Fox in 2015 and I was like, 10 years from now, Trump will be president still and he will demand that we call the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America and everyone will go along with it. I would have been put in a sane asylum. People would be like, you have such Trump derangement syndrome that you need to be forcibly removed from society.

[Alex Wagner]

As a matter of satire and comedy. They're firing on all cylinders. We couldn't have conjured this nonsense, as you say, even nine years ago. They're very creative in that sense.

[Tim Miller]

They are. Okay, we've got some other news items we gotta take through Tesla. Some great news for Tesla. The Trump administration is set to purchase $400 million worth of armored Tesla vehicles, according to a new State Department document detailing procurement for fiscal year 2025. After reports circulated Wednesday of got a shout out dropsite news for being first to the punch on this, the State Department changed the document and now it says the federal contract is for 400 billion worth of armored electric vehicles. Tesla's name has been removed. So I have a couple questions. I have a serious question for you about the corruption that is taking over our government. But I also, as the non woke former Republican here, I've got to say, why are we even doing French electric vehicles at all? Like, what is the deal with this? What if our armored vehicles are in a place where there are no charging stations? Shouldn't we have Ford F350s? Shouldn't we have real American gas guzzling armored vehicles? Not this hippie shit. So anyway, two part question.

[Alex Wagner]

I don't know which to tackle first. Tim the Grift, right? Do you remember when it was like he might be building a Trump Tower and Abu Dhabi. Nobody even bothers to disguise. And I do think, unlike Trump, right? People like the con man in Trump. I feel like that's why in some ways he was elected, because he cuts corners and does his own shit. People do not feel the same way about Elon Musk. And Elon Musk standing there in the Oval Office with his child as a prop and like, pretending that he's President and tinkering around in payroll systems and using his teen dream Doge crew to got the federal government is. I do not think that that passes by without the American public, without it ruffling their feathers. And I, and I say that as someone who spent, you know, some time in D.C. last week in front of the Treasury Department where there was a large protest and there was no talk about Trump. It was all focused on Elon Musk. And I do think that, you know, the Trump glow does not extend to anybody else. I do not think it extends to Elon Musk. And I think Democrats and people who are just upset about what's happened here are finding a new narrative. And he's at the center. Elon Musk is at the center of it. And I think this kind of stuff, there's a reason they changed the wording to not mention Teslas. I do think the Trump White House understands that Musk could be a problem for them. And I think if Democrats are smart, they will keep Musk at the center of all of this because he is just a poster child for the corruption, the grift, the sort of lawlessness, the entitlement, the greed, the, you know, sort of unelected, you know, billionaire storming the federal government. People are not cool with that. And I think you should read a lot into the fact that they changed the wording on that, that statement.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah, I do, too. It means they're conscious of it for sure. It was interesting. I saw there's this Joe Rogan clip where he says something like essentially to the effect of, you know, Elon's too rich to grift.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, sure.

[Tim Miller]

Let's listen to Joe real quick.

[Joe Rogan]

This other thing about Elon. Elon's gonna steal everybody's money. He has $400 billion. I'm telling you, he's not gonna steal your money. I'm telling you, that's not what he's doing. What he's doing is he's a super genius that's been fucked with, okay? And when you've been fucked with by these nitwits that hide behind three letter agencies and you're dealing with one of the smartest people alive, and he helps Donald Trump get in office and he goes, I want to find out what kind of corruption is really around. Well, you fucked up. You fucked up and picked the wrong psychopath on the spectrum because he's going to fucking. He's going to hunt you down. He's going to find out what's going on, and that's Good. That's good for everybody. That's how you should be looking at this. Like, wow, we have a brilliant mind that is examining these really fucking corrupt and goofy systems and bringing in a bunch of psychopath wizards.

[Tim Miller]

Organization.

[Joe Rogan]

That's.

[Tim Miller]

Is that how this works? Is that how this works? A very rich people, like, decide that they don't want to be richer.

[Alex Wagner]

No, they always want to be richer. I mean, I think that's the thing about really rich people is sky's the limit. Can I also say, the guy that nails this and the guy who is the ID of MAGA is Steve Bannon, and he gets that Musk. I mean, we've talked about this. He's a problem. He's not a true believer. He's. I mean, he's in it for Elon and the glory attendant.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay. Do you want to talk about why you can have electric vehicles on the battlefield?

[Tim Miller]

I do. Well, this kind of goes to the bat. This kind of goes to the Bannon thing. Right. There are a number of issues that Musk presents on the right for them, too. Right. Like, this is not a natural alliance. Like, we saw it with the H1B. I'm joking. But, like, really, this is not a movement that is, like, really gonna be thrilled about the advance of electric vehicles.

[Alex Wagner]

Wait, can I just say, Tim? Like, an electric vehicle on the battlefield is, like, the definition of wokeism. Like, this is the thing that Pete Heggs has been hired to, like, pull out root and branch.

[Tim Miller]

Well, there'd have to be a black trans driver. If there was a black trans female driver of the armored electric vehicle, then we'd really be woke.

[Alex Wagner]

The whole thing, none of it musk. He embodies the contradictions here. It doesn't make any sense.

[Tim Miller]

Doesn't make sense. I really do think that there'd be vulnerabilities. I don't think the Rogan position of, oh, he's uncorruptible, he's too rich to be corruptible. I think that that is going to work for the people in my replies on Twitter with the blue checks who may or may not be from Romania who are telling me about how great Elon is and posting memes of crying, you know, liberals, you know, via the Grok AI. I think, like, those people will buy that. But I just think, like, as this goes along, I do think that regular folks didn't sign up for 400 million in Tesla armored vehicles.

[Alex Wagner]

No. Also, like, Elon doesn't have it. Like, I just think that people need to get back to the Essence of, like, this guy is a profoundly lame character. And that is in Trump High School, which is a place we all live in now and attend. Like, he is not the popular dude. That's Donald Trump. He's the captain of the football team. And Elon Musk is some weird person that has entered the sort of inner sanctum but does not have. He is not going to win any popularity contests. And the longer this goes on and the more Elon is placed front and center, I truly think the bigger problem it is for the Trump administration.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I think he's the captain of the baseball team. Trump doesn't really like to be hit.

[Alex Wagner]

Let's not insult baseball. I'm thinking chess team. I mean, chess is also. You can be captain of any team, but that doesn't give you, you know, you don't get to make announcements on the intercom. That's.

[Tim Miller]

I guess I can insult salt. Baseball. I mean, it's just.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm part of a very big baseball family.

[Tim Miller]

I know, I know the Mets, you know, and then the kid. I mean, it's great. There's nothing. You can be a great baseball player. It's a little different than being the.

[Alex Wagner]

Football player that's just getting treading on. It's. This is not comfortable for me.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. I like to. That makes me kind of want to pull the thread a little bit more.

[Alex Wagner]

But, I mean, baseball is an amazing sport. I'm not going to say that. I'm pretty good. Yeah. I mean, listen, we'll just agree to disagree.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. We have some more news. We've got the big one coming today. Three great weeks, all caps, perhaps the best ever. But today is the big one. Reciprocal tariffs make America great again. Trump's got a news conference that will be complete by the time this posts. Where are you on this? We have a little intro. Bulwark disagreement on tariffs. Yeah, well, not about the value of tariffs, about the Trump. Some people think that it's gonna be all the Canadian thing all the way down. Right. Like, it's all fake. It's all wwe. He's not going to do it. I think that he actually really loves tariffs, and I think that he's going to do it. Like, I think that we're going to have tariffs. I don't know if they'll be the ones today. I don't know if it'll be in a month. But, like, eventually, he's like a little baby throwing a tantrum, and he thinks it's a big, beautiful word. And I don't think that he's not going to do it. I don't know. What do you think?

[Alex Wagner]

I mean this is the genius of the strategy. The fact that there's an intra bulwark debate, which is probably an intra Canadian debate and an intra Chinese debate. I guarantee you Xi Jinping has a couple advisors who's like, this is, you know, well, it's not all bullshit, but I agree with you. I don't know that it's going to be as spectacular as what he's announced it to be, but I absolutely think he, he does not like the headlines that say he whiffed it or he pulled back or he, this is just, you know, and he doesn't give a shit about the consequences. Right. I mean he loves finding an enemy, especially foreign ones. So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we actually see some real tariffs.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. The consequence he would care about, I guess is the market crashing. But he has to your point, I hate handing it to him using the word genius, but he's even submitted the markets on this. He puts out this thing this morning before we come on that says these are going to be the big one, the tariffs. And the market's only been open for about an hour right now, but they're up. People don't believe, they don't believe him. And so there was the pre market not crash but dropped before the big Canadian Mexican tariff announcements. Then he backed off, but he kept the Chinese ones and he kept the steel and aluminum ones. You know what I mean? That kind of under the. Eventually you would think that reality would have to intervene, but maybe not.

[Alex Wagner]

We are waiting for reality to intervene and it's been quite shy. Reality has not raised her hand in the Trump Oval Office. It's a stunning thing.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So far. All right. Speaking of reality not raising her hand, the other news item of today, RFK is going to be confirmed as Secretary of Health and Human Services. The most interesting thing about all this to me is like, is less that the, the Republicans caved because I always knew the Republicans would cave. I was hopeful is even the wrong word. I felt like there was an outside chance that Bill Cassidy would show some backbone because he's a doctor and because he'd already impeached Trump. I was going to bet against it, but I thought that there was a chance. I was, you know, I was in a dumb and dumber situation. I was like, you know, you're saying there's a chance for Bill Cassidy, but overall I knew he'd get confirmed. The interesting thing is like There. There has that really been a big fight from, like, pharma. There's a political article about this yesterday. Just like, everybody just was kind of like, okay, like, let's see what happens. Like, bring whooping cough back and, like, take our chances.

[Alex Wagner]

You know, I'm surprised because yesterday the White House released a statement on eggs.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

And they are clearly worried about what bird flu is doing to egg prices and dairy prices. The trumpflation thing, the groceries thing, the shit he ran on and got elected for. To bring costs down is a concern to them. I mean, I don't know if you've tried to buy eggs. We're a big egg house here, Tim. They're very hard to get.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not a big egg man.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay, well, that's your loss.

[Tim Miller]

But eggs and baseball, we finally found our areas of disagreement. My family does eggs. I just. It's just.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay, well, they're hard to get and they're really expensive, like, everywhere across the country. This is a problem for the Trump administration on a practical. A really practical level. And they're about to install someone who seems categorically. I mean, part of the statement that the White House released yesterday is we inherited this problem with bird flu, and, you know, it's a Biden problem that is, you know, now landing on our doorstep. But they're about to install someone at HHS who has, like, zero capacity to deal with any kind of, like, national health crisis and, in fact, could make it meaningfully worse. I'm surprised that, like, at no point, because they had. They could have. They had a lot of gimmes on. On this one, they could have taken them all again and just been like, you know what? They're going full steam ahead with someone who could make one of, I think, really a practical economic problem for them considerably more problematic. So that, to me, more than the, you know, spinelessness of Senate Republicans, I thought was surprising. I thought there's actually a vested interest they have in, you know, installing someone vaguely competent at hhs, but they're not going to do that, I guess.

[Tim Miller]

Where are you just on, like, your expectations of this versus reality. I mean, you know, we were together on that bleary, late early morning of November 6th and talked for about a minute. If I had told you that night, I was like, pete Hegseth will be secretary of defense. RFK Jr. Will be secretary of HHS. Cash Patel's FBI, would you have been like, yeah, that feels right. Like he's won and they're just gonna go do it? Or has this Been a little surprising to you.

[Alex Wagner]

I was doing this show called the Circus, which I know you're quite familiar with, seeing as you did several seasons. And I remember John Heilman and I went up to see Susan Collins right before her vote on Brett Kavanaugh. And she was so angry at the threats and the left wing sort of cabal coming after her on the issue of abortion. And she was just defiant, and it was clear she was gonna vote for Kavanaugh. And I thought, you know what? This is like, the only thing you're known for is, like, trying to protect a woman's right to choose. And you are gonna. You are gonna, like, let the fox into the hen house. And look what happened, Tim. Yeah, look what happened. That, for me, is the moment where I was like, oh, these guys, like, truly don't care about anything other than staying in the good graces of the party, staying in power. And like, you know, there have been so many times since then where they've proven their spinelessness and proven their alle to the loudest voice, most powerful voice in the room, rather than the, oh, I don't know, the Constitution. So, yeah, if you had told me this is a long windup, to use a baseball term, if you had told me on November 6th these clowns would be in would be the people installed, I think I would have believed you. Because it just comes down to whether the Senate Republicans have any ounce of integrity left. And I think they've proven to us that they don't.

[Tim Miller]

No, they don't. I mean, except Mitch is trying to pretend like he has.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, yeah, Mitch has been on the Merrick Garland thing. I mean, once you say we're going to change the rules to benefit our ourselves and like, we're going to adulterate the institutions in a naked power grab, like, then, okay, fine. Like, he basically drew a blueprint that everybody's been, you know, working off of in the intervening years.

[Tim Miller]

This is so smart because he did the blueprint and he thought he was going to be in charge the whole time. Right. It's one of these things where we, like, let's break the rules and, you know, let's use maximum power politics. And I'm running the Senate and we'll be able to do this to advance my ends. And like, as it turns out, no, he's. He's alone.

[Alex Wagner]

Turns out you got got. Turns out the Federalist society is too mainstream. Like, the goalposts can move out of the stadium. See, this is a football metaphor. I'm not quite as good at it. The the goalposts can move out of the stadium and down the block into a different zip code. Nobody thought about that, did they? No. Mitch McConnell sure didn't.

[Tim Miller]

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[Alex Wagner]

I stopped reading after that. I saw that. And I was like, okay, no, we're done.

[Tim Miller]

I can tell you the next sentence was about how it was all guys that are in charge and they're just using their maximum power.

[Alex Wagner]

Finally, is what I say.

[Tim Miller]

Seems to me like it's kind of like small dick maximalism. None of these people are. And who are we talking about? Musk, who lied about his video game prowess. And like Trump with his makeup. I just, I don't. Like, this is all. All just so. Only in D.C. could they get away with this.

[Alex Wagner]

I guess, yeah, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. I mean, I think it's like the deepest, darkest part of masculine insecurity that we're seeing on center stage.

[Tim Miller]

I guess that's true. In that sense, it's masculine maximalism.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I mean, I guess it's like the dark part of it. I don't think that it's like the strong part of masculine. I mean, first of all, like, I guess. I guess we have to put this in, like, kind of like obvious gender tropes. Right? The return of the white guys. Like, I think it is at Democrats peril that they ignore the yearn for traditionalism, which seems to be a huge part of maga. Right. I don't think that means a capitulation to it, but there is something shifting. There's something going on socioculturally. And I think. I mean, I don't mean to quote Barack Obama, but here I go quoting Barack Obama. The idea that America should be for the waking and not just the woke. I think there's something there about, like a greater tolerance for not the retrograde and not the diminishing, but something that seems more, on its face, traditional. I don't know how to say this in a way that is not controversial.

[Tim Miller]

But you're in a safe space for this.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm not right here.

[Tim Miller]

You are.

[Alex Wagner]

I want a podcast. But I do think that we have to examine what's happening here and why people elected Donald Trump, who ran on the, like, I'm the daddy who's going to spank you. That is not to say Democrats need to be daddies who spank people. But, like, why? Why is that happening? What is like, the platform of the left missing in terms of its inclusivity or its messaging or its policy that is like opening up this space for this insanely ass backwards version of like, the American family and American gender roles. Like, why? Why is this happening? What is going so wrong that this is the snapback that we get?

[Tim Miller]

I didn't plan to go Here. But you opened Pandora's box, so we're going to do this.

[Alex Wagner]

Great.

[Tim Miller]

I do think that, to me, I just look at this just silliness from Axios, but this broader question of the masculinity and the traditionalism, like you said, and how the Democrats, I think, could regain some of this by just standing up to these guys with backbone and with authority. There was this thing during the campaign on the left where it was like, the Democrats can redefine what it means to be a man. And, like, Doug Emhoff and Tim Walls can do that by, like, being nicer to people. That feels like a challenging project because it's a project that some people that will appeal to some people and that other people will mock and roll their eyes at. But, like, I do think that there's a different way to kind of regain whatever. Being masculine, which is standing up to these fuckers and defending people and doing it unapologetically. Right. And not having to feel like you're redefining masculinity. Yeah. Being masculine by being sweet.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, I don't disagree with you, I guess. I guess. I wonder, like, does that look that different than what they. What Tim Walls tried to do? Do you feel like it was too overt in the. Like.

[Tim Miller]

I guess.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean. Cause I think the media narrative is one thing, but just as a practical matter of strategy, I feel like it was like, he's a football guy, and he loves his wife, and, like, he likes Kamala Harris, and he's gonna roll with her and be her vice president. And it wasn't like, I am explicitly beta, and I'm trying to. I'm here to tell you that being beta is just fine.

[Tim Miller]

That's true. Even though it kind of was with Doug. I love Doug. I love Doug. So just say this, but, like, there was a moment of, like, you saw this in the discourse where it was like, we can model a different way of being a man by, like, standing up for your. Like, letting your wife take the lead. I'm all for people letting their wife take the lead and be tough, but, like. But there was a subtext of it. Of men can step back.

[Alex Wagner]

You think it was just trying too hard.

[Tim Miller]

Of men can step back. Of men can. You know, men can be the P. Flag sponsor. Men can do that. But by making that the overt pitch. I don't know.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, I mean, I see what you're saying. Like, make it, like, do it, but make it less obvious. Just do it in a more natural, less force, less, like, kind of like, like you're making a thesis argument for a different kind of masculinity to the American public. Rather just like, behave, show them, do.

[Tim Miller]

Or I don't know, maybe the right is like saying that, okay, you can be nice and be a good person, but also be tough and punch. I was talking to one of my former Jeb colleagues.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, who. Wait, the right. Saying that. I don't think being nice.

[Tim Miller]

No, no, on the left, I'm not. That's what I'm saying. But like this, the toughness part, I guess is what I was saying, which was kind of missed. Right? I don't know. I was talking to one of my former Jeb colleagues and I was like, is there anything we could have done? We were a little drunk and we were kind of rehabbing.

[Alex Wagner]

Very masculine.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it was very sad. I'm not the remodel of masculinity here with my pearls, Alex.

[Alex Wagner]

Sure you are.

[Tim Miller]

I'm doing my best, but. And he suggested to me, he goes, you know, I think the one thing that he could have done is when Trump made fun of his wife, he could have punched him. And I was like, literally. And he was like, literally, like, had he punched Trump on the face on the debate stage, I mean, I feel.

[Alex Wagner]

Like that's where we need to go.

[Tim Miller]

That might have been, that might have been the thing that could have saved him. Like, if we could have done one thing differently, maybe he needed to punch him. I don't know.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, I mean, so maybe what you're suggesting is a tougher edge with the same expansive ideas about gender, but like an ass kicking version of a beta cuck. I'm kidding. Like, yeah, so there's pearls and there's.

[Tim Miller]

Loving your wife and there's also punching mega assholes. Can we do all of those?

[Alex Wagner]

Kicking someone in the nuts? Can we do all. I mean, it's. Listen, but can I just say, part of it is not about politics. It's just kind of where we are as a society and we're trying to fucking grapple our way through the darkness. It's complicated. It's really hard. And I gotta say, like, people who are just who have been marginalized for a long time and are just getting, you know, heard and seen, are like, yeah, fuck you. I'm not going back into the darkness. And the people who are on the downslope, which is to say or feel like they're on the downslope or becoming less powerful in society, are like, yeah, fuck that. No way. Like, I like my seat just fine. Thank you so much. And, like, this is. We're in, like, a very intense hinge point, I think, as a society and as a country. And we have it worse than most because we're a really diverse, cacophonous democracy. So this is where we're at, like, regardless of partisan affiliation, this is why.

[Tim Miller]

You'Re good at this. This is why you're out in the field. I like you in your circus mode, in your Trumpland podcast mode. It's exhausting. Is it exhausting?

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, my God. I have no control over my schedule. I'm actually in the field. I'm, like, at the protest. I'm talk to the fired IGs. I'm talking to the federal workers. I'm like, with the Jan Sixers outside the jail.

[Tim Miller]

Like, this is your element, though. I feel like.

[Alex Wagner]

Can I just say, it is so. It's so hard. It's so worth it. And, like, I felt like we needed to do something different, like Trump 2.0. Like, there are people doing great work at MSNBC HQ. I don't mean to diminish that at all, but I just felt like, given my background doing the field reporting, it was like, dude, I just want to go out and understand what's happening to this country a little bit better. And so in that way, it's been really worthwhile.

[Tim Miller]

We're totally aligned on that. I'm wondering, is there something that you've picked up being out there that you feel like you might have missed had you, you know, been doing the studio grind?

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, I think just talking to the people who are at the center of all of this stuff, whether it's the January 6th families or Chris Ruffo or, you know, migrants who are being targeted in raids and, like, you know, federal workers who are like, I don't know what I'm going to do tomorrow, whether I have a job or not. I think think that it has cultivated a sense of. I always try and work from, like, an empathetic center, but I do think that I am. I feel the chaos and pain more acutely, and I think that that's good for all of us who can get, as consumers and journalists who can get real desensitized to this. It's very abstract in a lot of ways, and it's ongoing. It's a fire hose of, you know, hell and so. And chaos. And so this helps really distill. Like, I think it's really important to hear individual stories, and that's been, like, profoundly enlightening for me. But in terms of like. Like a hot take that I wouldn't have had, I gotta say. And I think it's probably more on the Trump side that I've had the revelation. Like, this guy, I think, has refashioned American politics and expectations that are set for presidents. Like, I don't agree with almost a single thing he's ever done, let alone in this second term, but he has delivered in a huge way. And the people who believed him when they voted for him feel so vindicated. And it is both a cautionary tale, but also, like, for a Democrat who comes into office, the expectation, I think, can and should be, you better work your ass off asap. And I don't think that it should be in contravention of the law or in terms of shattering norms and institutions, but get her done. Like, Trump is going ham and his folks really believe in him, but even more so now than ever, and they believe they're on the path of the righteous.

[Tim Miller]

So I want to do a little confessional real quick on the empathy, because I'm happy to hear you say that, because I feel like this is a shortcoming I have sitting here in my box is like, there's the bad part of me inside that, like, wants things to be terrible because that's the only way anybody will learn, and that's the only way that it might be the only way that we get through. It's not the only way, but there needs to be consequences to risky choices, or else we're in Trumpland forever. And then I listen to your show, and I hear from the actual people that are suffering, because it's not really me that's suffering. It's easy for me to say sitting here. So I don't know. I mean, do you have that, like, tension inside of you, or are those just my sins that I'm trying to deal with?

[Alex Wagner]

I get a little pessimist, a lot pessimistic after I'm out for a long time, just because I'm seeing this stuff, right? Like, I'm talking to the moms who are, like, telling their kids before they go to school, if I don't come home or if I'm not here, this is where you go. Because I might have been deported, right? Like, and as a mom, as a person in the world, like, can you imagine having that conversation with your kid, like, who's like, you know, a little American kid going to second grade, and it's like, what do you mean, if you don't come home ever? So that's right. Like, Wrenching. But then I also look at the national narrative around this. I don't see Democrats defending anybody, defending these people who are part of the backbone of the American economy. And it makes me wonder whether if we hit bottom, anybody's gonna notice. Cause it, man, when you hear these stories and see what's happening out there, it's like, wait, this feels a lot like end times. Aren't we supposed to be bouncing back and realizing that we've erred and that, like, this is all wrong? And then you get polling that it's like, oh, no, a vast majority of, like, a significant majority of the country, like, is okay with all of this.

[Tim Miller]

I think it's great.

[Alex Wagner]

And it, I think, suggests that we have become a remarkably desensitized, really uncurious country that, like, doesn't bother giving a shit about anyone who's not us. And that makes me wonder whether hitting bottom for real, for real is actually the way out of this.

[Tim Miller]

All right, now you're speaking my language. Okay? You can have empathy and recognize what might be needed. Your episode that's dropping today is about the efforts to eliminate DEI from the federal agencies.

[Alex Wagner]

The War on Woke. The war on Woke.

[Tim Miller]

There's one example of this, one that's just, I guess, takes us back to the Russian dark comedy at the start, I guess, which is that some Education Department employees were placed on leave after taking diversity training. But the, you know, the end of the gag here is that the diversity training happened during Trump's first term.

[Alex Wagner]

Yep.

[Tim Miller]

So what else did you kind of uncovered for that episode?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, the Doge Purge is like, purge by keyword. It's like, is there anything in the resume that has the words DEI in it, regardless of whether you work on dei? Like, did you go, like, for example, these guys who went. Her training? It's so wanton and haphazard. And I think that's twofold. One, I think that the haziness of all of this, the lack of standards for who's placed on leave and who isn't, gives them, like, ample opportunity to take out people of color or women or people who just are not going to be seen as friendly to a Trump administration agenda. And then for everybody who's not, like, a woman or a person of color or whatever, it just instills fear and, like, makes them all the more likely to say, you know what? I do not need to live like this. I'm taking the buyout. I'm out of here. And it also, I think, fulfills. It ticks the box that Russell Vogt outlined, which is they want to traumatize federal workers. They see them as the like bleeding heart libs. The USAAD stuff is like so vengeful and so personal. They want to punish this group of people who believe in civil service. So the chaos and the confusion in all of this is a multi pronged assault on specific communities, the body of the federal government on whole and the institution of civic service. So it's very useful in that way. It's incredibly craven.

[Tim Miller]

Been one of the other episodes you was talking about the kind of the non buyout buyout, right. This idea that Elon sends us the fork in the road email and it's like if you. It was yesterday actually you have to say by February 12th that you want out. And then he sent an email last night that said the fork in the road is closed, which I think is a mixed metaphor.

[Alex Wagner]

It's turned into a spoon.

[Tim Miller]

I don't exactly know how that works, but according to them, and you have to really say according to them at the beginning of everything at this point, because who the fuck knows. But they said about 77,000 workers accepted the offer. But that's like a pretty standard amount of turnover for a given year in the federal workforce. Or is it not?

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, it's like, I think we. It's like the numbers are a little fuzzy, but that's like almost 4% and their target was 5 to 10%. So it's not nothing.

[Tim Miller]

So when you were talking to these folks, some people were doing it because.

[Alex Wagner]

Most of the people I talked to weren't. They'd been advised by their unions, don't do it. We can't guarantee that you're. First of all, Congress hasn't appropriated any of these funds. Who knows what this offer is? It could just be a waste.

[Tim Miller]

This was such a good point in your piece. Cause it was trying to settle in with me, which is like, sure, you can't trust Trump ever. But in this specific case, the government funding runs out next month, March 14th. Right.

[Alex Wagner]

There's an ongoing battle about it.

[Tim Miller]

So they don't have the money appropriated to give them money for an eight month buyout. So it's, it is a seriously. Just like you know, signing a piece.

[Alex Wagner]

Of paper, like you each get a car and a timeshare in Florida and like a salary forever. Like none of it. Now maybe they'll make good on it, I don't know. But I also just don't think, I don't think it's. Oh, right. Like they're not Done. They're not done getting. Gutting the government. That's like 4% of the government that said, yeah, I'll take. I'll raise my hand for this bogus, potentially bogus offer, but then they're going to. And also just fire people. So it ain't over.

[Tim Miller]

No, it ain't. Let's talk about the pushback to it. You spoke to just such a sweet inspector general who was just so sweet and earnest, God love him, about caring about. He was talking about how he wanted to, like, his job was concerns about efficiency. And he was like, my mission should be aligned with Elon and Donald Trump's mission. And I was just like, poor guy. You just don't. You don't see it. Like, they don't. It's fake anyway. You talked to some of the inspectors general. You're at the protests, like, talk about kind of what your sense is from the kind of the pushback at this point.

[Alex Wagner]

So I will say the inspectors general are not a bunch of, like, liberal party animals, right? Like, they're very circumspect. They're very by the book. One of them who I talked to, Michael Missile, was the inspector general for the va, where there's, like, you know, it's a sprawling bureaucracy, and you definitely want the hands on the captain's wheel in terms of waste, fraud, and abuse. There's like, a num. I feel like there's constantly stories of scandals unfolding at the VA having to do with waste, fraud and abuse. And he is actually part of a group of several inspectors general who this week have decided to sue the administration for wrongful termination because there's a very clear playbook or set of protocols by which you can fire an inspector general. And Trump, of course, didn't follow it. So. So I do think while they may not have the sharpest language and not have the most revelatory ideas about why they were fired and the mendacity of this administration, they're not going quietly into the night. I mean, they are going to fight back in, I think, the most buttoned up, lawful way possible. But they're raising their hands legally and saying, you can't do this to us. That's resistance. The resistance, as we see, is all in the courts, Tim. And I think there's the good and the bad. Right. Like, some of the courts are gonna be great if we get to the Supreme Court. I think Trump has a real shot of getting a lot of what he wants, if not everything he wants. So, I mean, the other part of the Resistance is the American public. And I do think it's been distressing to see the lack of engagement on any of these topics that should fire up the American citizenry.

[Tim Miller]

So Dave Weigel, who I love, always read Dave Weigel at Semaphore. He has a great newsletter, Americana, I think it's called. He wrote this this morning, and it is that the new resistance to Donald Trump's presidency had a plan. State attorneys general from Maine to Hawaii would rush to court to stop vast portions of the agenda he spent years promising to deliver. Weigel writes, there's a weird thing going on where the massive liberal lawyer alliance is winning cases, the White House is denouncing it, and the mood is that wimpy Dems are blowing it. I take his point. You know, and I think you're, you sort of explain this, right? Like there's this bifurcated quote, unquote resistance effort, right? Like there is the legal effort to just like literally resist the letter of the rules. I won't even say laws, the letter of the actions that have been put in place, you know, extra legally in a lot of cases by Elon and his cronies. But then like, there's the political resistance. Right? Right. Which is this is bad, like convincing people that this is bad and harmful and that it should be rejected. Did like, that is the part that feels limp to me.

[Alex Wagner]

Very, very limp, very limp. I mean, I think the, the legal front, first of all, they've been ready for this, you know, before the, even the election. These legal groups, they knew what was coming and they were prepared and the state AGs, hats off to them, they've been tenacious and very fast. But the courts are the courts and we are talking about politics here. And like, I, I talked to Chris Ruffo yesterday, the architect of like a lot of Trump' anti woke agenda and he's like, we got the public Is with us 100%. And until and unless there is real public disfavor and a sense that the public isn't with them, then maybe they're right. I don't believe that they are because I fundamentally don't believe that the values that are being reflected in this administration are in sync with where the country that I know is at. But I mean, where is everyone? I think people feel demoralized and beaten down and confused and just overwhelmed. But I also don't think that's an excuse because this is the country. And like, like it's all moving fast. But that's exactly why people need to get involved if they have an issue with it, this is why.

[Tim Miller]

To me, it's like both parts of the resistance need to work for it to be effective. We have Preet on tomorrow, so we'll get deeper into the legal side of this. But to me, if only the legal side is successful, that actually could be a long term loss. It could be short term gain for people whose jobs are protected. And that's great. And everybody should fight for their own interests, and I support that. But let's say that the courts end up blocking whatever 60% of what Musk tried to do and they get 40% through and they're able to then say, oh, these woke judges stopped us from doing more. And because we only did 40%, there's actually not that much backlash because people don't really experience the totality of what their agenda was. It could end up being kind of a win win for them, them a little bit. Right. If they're like, okay, well the court's blocked like the worst part of our ideas and so we get to do some of this other stuff and then kind of then make the courts the bad guys and use that as a rationale for further political victories and further illiberal actions.

[Alex Wagner]

I would say also like the more cases that the Supreme Court is really good at nibbling around the edges at a number of things in each of its opinions. Like the affirmative action case, you know, with Harvard and admissions, you know, that's the jurisprudence they're working off of to do all this DEI stuff. Right. Like there's precedent set in all of these rulings. Honestly, regardless of whether they're favorable or not favorable. Clarence Thomas opens the door to, you know, maybe rescinding gay marriage and throwing that out the window too. You don't want to have to get the whole Trump agenda in front of the 6:3 majority on the Supreme Court. Like that's not a great long term play to your point. And like public outcry matters. It really matters. Pissed Trump off that there was a women's march the day after his inauguration. It really did. And maybe, I mean, I don't know how that, you know, informed the decisions he made in the weeks thereafter. But I do think the public saying this isn't us, you can't do this in our name is really meaningful. And it helps. I think the machinery of democracy requires that.

[Tim Miller]

I'm going to say this till I'm blue in the face. Like there might have been some cringe. We might roll our eyes at the pink pussy hats or whatever now, but like the resistance worked the first time. I mean, he didn't repeal Obamacare. He got crushed in the midterms. He lost in 2020. It didn't work in the sense of. It didn't create a lasting coalition that prevented him from getting power again. And that is terrible. And people, the Democrats should reassess their strategies and what to do moving forward. But just like the question of, should we protest, should we do everything possible to try to stop him, should we scream from the rooftops? There is like this. This conventional wisdom that is, like, congealing, that, like, that isn't useful, that, like, whatever. And it's like, I don't think that's true.

[Alex Wagner]

It doesn't have to be just a generalized march. There are really specific things and specific groups of peoples and institutions that could be at the center of any and every protest. And I think that that would have a. Maybe more meaningful impact in Trump 2.0 than just kind of a march on the mall. Like, when I was outside the Treasury Department, it was like. It wasn't huge, but it was like a thousand people. And it felt like, okay, this is. This is both a protest and a rally, right? This is in a meaningful inflection point for the Democrats and the citizens who are watching this and are not okay with it. And there needs, I think, to be more of that, and it should be targeted, and there should be specific demands like, you cannot do this thing. Generalized resistance may not be that effective this time around, but, man, he's given a lot of explicit examples to push up against.

[Tim Miller]

And you don't know what'll spark things. Like, who would have thought that some CNBC guy's rant would have turned into the Tea Party, you know what I mean? Like, you don't know what ends up sparking something that has mass movement. Okay, One last episode was a couple weeks ago, but it was so. I don't know. I was about to say powerful, but, I don't know. Depressing, maybe, would be a better word. I wanted to play a clip from one of the conversations you had outside of the prison after Trump pardoned the January 6th.

[Alex Wagner]

You've been out here holding vigil. Who do you. Who do you have inside?

[Unnamed January 6th Supporter]

I got Jonathan Pollock and Olivia Pollock. We came up. We were all, as a family, came up on January 6th, and then with our church, and I got. I got friends and Michael Perkins and. And he's going to be released out of Coleman in Florida. And then I got another buddy on an ankle monitor. All my friends are locked up right now.

[Alex Wagner]

What happened with your. Is your son and daughter.

[Tim Miller]

I want to see. Yes.

[Alex Wagner]

What. What exactly? What are they in for?

[Unnamed January 6th Supporter]

Ah, they're in for about everything. They were.

[Alex Wagner]

We looked up the exact charges, and just about everything isn't a bad Description. Jonathan faced 17 counts and multiple alleged felonies, including assaulting officers with a dangerous weapon. In Jonathan's case, that meant charging at police with a flagpole. Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again?

[Unnamed January 6th Supporter]

Oh, absolutely. I would die for the man. I would have died for him that day.

[Alex Wagner]

I would die for the man.

[Tim Miller]

Wolf.

[Alex Wagner]

Wolf. I mean, I also, you know, to our earlier point, I'm like, where are the Democrats? The asymmetry of the passion.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

Is like, these folks, they feel like, you know, the sun has finally come out and they've been, you know, like they're. I cannot tell you the amount of, like, the joy, the celebration, the feeling that, like, everything was right in the world again. I mean, and I will say Trump. Like, half the people I talked to had. Had gotten personal phone calls from Trump. They had been invited to Mar a Lago. Like, he does constituent outreach, Tim, in a big way.

[Tim Miller]

He is working. I was hoping he was just gonna golf. Dude is working. Like, he was doing. He did that press conference with the guy that was in jail in Russia. They had the prisoners swap.

[Alex Wagner]

Mark Fogle.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Fogle. It was like, 11 o'clock at night. You know, he's out there doing it and, like, guys, like, having four press conferences a day. He's calling these people like, he's. He's working. That's bad news.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, and his people are with him, which is why it's like, you gotta hear from these people. Cause it's like the other side has gotta hear that and, like, scrape itself off the floor and get back into the ballgame. This guy saying he'd die for Donald Trump right now. I'm not suggesting that people need to die for Chuck Schumer or whatever, but, like, man, like, can you show up to a protest? Or, like, do something? I don't know. The asymmetry is staggering.

[Tim Miller]

Scrape yourself off the floor. That's gonna be a good place for us to leave it. Alex, thanks for doing this so much. No, I'm sorry. That's good. I was like, oh, man. I'm leaving people with. The guy whose kid that speared a cop is getting out of jail, and he's thrilled about it. That's kind of a dark place to leave the episode. But Scrape yourself off the floor is a good place to leave it. So we'll do it with that.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay, we'll take it.

[Tim Miller]

You've got, what, how many more days on the road do you got?

[Alex Wagner]

A million. I don't know. It's been how many weeks of the Trump administration?

[Tim Miller]

I think four.

[Alex Wagner]

I have till the end of April, whatever day it is.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. At the end of April, we got Jazz Fest down here the first weekend of May. If you want to come down, hang out and have that purple drink with me.

[Alex Wagner]

I do. Oh, my God. You, me, and purple drink that perp. All right, I'm ready.

[Tim Miller]

That sounds good. If we don't do that, we'll have you back on for a 100 day recap.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, I'll be scraping myself off the floor then, buddy.

[Tim Miller]

All right, thanks so much, Alex Wagner. Everybody else will be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg Podcast. See y'all then. Peace.

[Unnamed Rapper]

Yeah. Gotta run through the wrecks with my man on my back I fell in love with the racks I fell in love with the sex no, I cannot fall in love with all that here from the back Then I pull out her tracks I come in first no, I can't come in last I know nobody out here on my back Everything I say I know that's a fact Gotta run through the wrecks with my man on my back I fell in love with the racks I fell in love with the sex no, I cannot fall in love with no neck Here from the back Then I pull out her tracks I come in first no, I can't come in last I know nobody out here got my back Everything I say I know that's a fact yeah, I came with the cash they mad cause they on my ass they mad cause I pulled up the racks don't got my gun and you probably get stabbed I do the crime and I don't need a mask I still walk around my main on my ass I walk around with a whole lot of gas not in no more but I'm popping them tax yeah, I move around like an alien One of my best friends they move like a felon.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Rapper]

I not a stitch I'm not telling them if you get locked up you know that I'm b got run through the rex with my man on my back I fell in love with the rex I fell in love with the stacks no, I cannot fall in love with no neck here from the back Then I pull out her tracks I come in first no, I can't come in last I know nobody out here got my back Everything I say I know that's a fact with my man on my back I fell in love with the Rex I fell in love with the sex no, I cannot fall in love I would know that if in the back Then I pull out her tracks I come in first no, I can't come in last I know nobody out here got my back Everything I say I know that's a fact I do the Rex with my man on my back I fell in love with the racks I fell in love with the stacks no, I cannot fall in love with no neck in front of back Then I pull out her tracks I come in first no I can't come in last I know nobody out here on my back Everything I say I know that's a fact.

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.