The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: “Alyssa Farah: Trump’s Big L in Indiana”

Date: December 12, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Alyssa Farah Griffin (Co-host of The View, CNN commentator, former Trump and Pence staffer)

Episode Overview

In this lively and deeply analytical episode, Tim Miller welcomes Alyssa Farah Griffin back to The Bulwark Podcast to dissect a major setback for Donald Trump in Indiana’s gerrymandering fight. They explore the implications of the Indiana state Senate rebuffing a MAGA push for extreme congressional redistricting, dig into infighting within the Republican Party, diagnose the weakening grip of Trump-era institutions, and reflect on Democratic strategy and the future of American politics. The episode touches on both the granular mechanics of politics and the broader cultural trends reshaping America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Indiana's Gerrymandering Fight—A Loss for Trump

• Background: Indiana proposed aggressive redistricting to shift congressional seats from a 7:2 Republican-Democrat split to a 9:0 shutout for Democrats.
• Rebellion: The state Senate, including 21 Republicans, rejected the plan (03:00–04:30).
  • Tim Miller: “To me it signals some real bad news for Trump about his lame duckedness and political standing.” (04:30)
• Significance: Alyssa and Tim agree this is the most consequential intra-party resistance Trump has faced since GOP officials blocked his 2020 election steal attempts.
  • Alyssa: “It reminded me there are Republicans and conservatives at the state level who might still believe…in some things, their own state-held power…how they conduct their elections…this is one where it felt like a very red state, Mike Pence’s home state…re-inserting its power.” (04:42–05:00)

2. The Cost and Culture of MAGA Pressure

• Lawmakers Under Fire: Indiana Republicans faced threats and even harassment directed at their families for not towing the Trump line.
  • Tim: “Gene Leising…after she came back to pick [her grandson] up from basketball practice…other players…were receiving text messages…saying, tell your grandmother to get in line and give Mr. Trump what he wants. And she was basically like, hell no. I have not lived 76 years for my grandson to be bullied for this.” (06:09)
• Big Picture: Alyssa notes, “If you’re proud of your agenda and you feel the country’s thriving, you’re not trying to gerrymander…the shit out of states to get more seats. That’s just…not giving confidence.” (06:53)

3. Wider GOP Woes & RNC Malaise

• Low Morale: The new RNC Chair, Joe Gruters, publicly admitted “there’s a pending, looming disaster…The chances are Republicans will go down and go down hard.” (12:40–14:01)
• Tim’s Assessment: “It’s just so un-Trumpy to be like, the chances are we’re going down and going down hard.” (15:01)
• Consequences: Alyssa and Tim discuss the Party’s lack of a North Star, Trump’s disengagement, and the risk that Trump’s absence on the ballot spells doom for GOP candidates.

4. Analyzing the Electoral Landscape

• Midterm Dynamics:
  • Alyssa: “The Republican Party has struggled since Trump has been in the political sphere to win when he’s not on the ballot.” (14:01)
• Potential Shifts: Both entertain the possibility that the Democrats’ surprising strength in New Jersey and Virginia (led by moderates like Mikie Sherrill and Abigail Spanberger) is not being fully internalized by Democratic elites.
• Winning Formulas:
  • Alyssa: “People’s opinions are pretty baked on Trump. They focused a lot on…affordability, health care, rising costs, safety in communities…actively courting people who probably voted for Trump to vote for them. That’s how you win in a purple state and nationally.” (20:43)

5. Infighting and Identity on the Left

• Debate Over Strategy: Tim raises whether Democrats should mimic Trump’s brash style or learn from moderate success. Alyssa urges moderation and warns against underestimating the centrism of the country. (22:29–23:47)
• Kamala Harris Speculation: Alyssa provocatively predicts that unless something dramatic happens, Democrats are likely to nominate Harris again. (23:00–23:47)

6. MAGA Movement and Media Ecosystem Shift

• America First vs. MAGA: Both discuss the intra-right “crack-up,” referencing feuds (e.g., Candace Owens vs. Charlie Kirk, Tucker Carlson’s influence) as symptomatic of deeper fragmentation. (35:11–38:23)
  • Alyssa: “There are creations of the MAGA moment that in some ways are bigger than [Trump] and I think are gonna outlive him. I am horrified…by what you’re seeing on the super online, incredibly influential Right…the darkest of conspiracy theories are completely mainstreamed.” (36:50–38:23)
• Algorithms and Influence: Tim and Alyssa agree that figures like Hannity and even Fox have lost agenda-setting power to more radical, digitally native influencers like Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson. (39:02–39:51)
• Foreign Interference: Alyssa reminds listeners, “America’s adversaries have a hand in that…what’s amplified, what they’re putting money behind, what you’re being served up. It’s the Iranian playbook, the Russian playbook. …They want divisive figures who are going to tear America apart from within.” (39:51–40:46)

7. Inside the Beltway: Institutions at Risk

• DOD Press Access: Tim notes the Department of Defense has kicked out credentialed journalists and replaced them with pro-Trump propagandists. Alyssa is stunned more media aren’t covering it. (46:24–47:31)

  • Alyssa: “I could argue there’s no building in the world more important to cover…with accountability, with transparency, and with real journalistic rigor than the White House and the Department of Defense.” (47:31)

• Caribbean Policy & Trump’s Decision-Making: The hosts debate the administration’s Venezuela and drug interdiction maneuvers—Alyssa is skeptical Trump has a coherent strategy. Both suspect Rubio and Stephen Miller hold more sway, and see reduced checks and balances around policy moves compared to Trump’s first term. (49:00–53:36)

8. White House Personnel and the Death of Dissent

• Absence of Principled Departures: Tim asks if there will be any “Alyssa Farahs” under Trump 2.0, i.e., people willing to break with the administration on principle (54:50). Alyssa doesn’t think so: “Phone hasn’t been ringing.” She predicts future departures will be strategic, not moral. (55:51–57:01)
• Long-Term View: Alyssa: “I think the history books will remember it very differently…but I’m talking a decade out. A lot of the world looks more fondly on George Bush now than they did…10 years ago. I think it’s going to be very different with Donald Trump.” (58:00)
• Durable Damage: Public health, international standing, and democracy itself will bear the consequences, she warns, referencing Bill Gates’ warnings on future health impacts. (58:00–59:04)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Indiana’s Rebellion
  • “I love that. I have not lived 76 years for my grandson to be bullied for this gerrymandered district on behalf of Donald Trump.” —Tim Miller recounting Sen. Leising’s stance (06:09)
• On RNC Pessimism
  • “There’s a pending, looming disaster heading our way…chances are Republicans will go down and will go down hard.” —Joe Gruters, RNC Chair via Tim Miller (14:01)
• On Populist New Media
  • “They created monsters, if you will, and they can’t now walk it back and be like, oh wow, we let this get too bad, too dangerous, too risky.” —Alyssa Farah Griffin on Fox News’ loss of control over MAGA influencers (38:00)
• On the Long Arc of History
  • “I still think the arc of history is long and it’s bending toward everyone being like, well, that was fucking crazy.” —Alyssa Farah Griffin (59:04)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Indiana’s Redistricting Showdown: 03:00–06:53
• Personal Stories & Threats to Lawmakers: 06:09
• RNC Admits Impending Disaster: 12:40–15:33
• Democratic Midterm Lessons: 17:12–23:47
• Left/Right Populism & Campaign Tactics: 24:37–25:38
• MAGA Crack-Up: Online Feuds & Influence: 35:11–39:51
• Foreign Influence & Media Control: 39:51–41:19
• DOD Press and Institutional Erosion: 46:24–48:57
• Venezuela/Caribbean Policy: 49:00–53:36
• White House Personnel & Future of Dissent: 54:50–58:00
• Historical Perspective on Trump Era: 58:00–59:04

Tone and Closing

Tim and Alyssa’s exchange is fast-paced, self-aware, and grounded in both policy substance and real political culture. The hosts oscillate between gallows humor, earnest concern about threats to democracy, and practical campaign analysis. The undercurrent: even MAGA’s grip has cracks—and real stakes for the country’s future remain up for grabs.