Alyssa Farah: Trump's Big L in Indiana

Summary

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The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: “Alyssa Farah: Trump’s Big L in Indiana”

Date: December 12, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Alyssa Farah Griffin (Co-host of The View, CNN commentator, former Trump and Pence staffer)

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Episode Overview

In this lively and deeply analytical episode, Tim Miller welcomes Alyssa Farah Griffin back to The Bulwark Podcast to dissect a major setback for Donald Trump in Indiana’s gerrymandering fight. They explore the implications of the Indiana state Senate rebuffing a MAGA push for extreme congressional redistricting, dig into infighting within the Republican Party, diagnose the weakening grip of Trump-era institutions, and reflect on Democratic strategy and the future of American politics. The episode touches on both the granular mechanics of politics and the broader cultural trends reshaping America.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Indiana's Gerrymandering Fight—A Loss for Trump

• Background: Indiana proposed aggressive redistricting to shift congressional seats from a 7:2 Republican-Democrat split to a 9:0 shutout for Democrats.
• Rebellion: The state Senate, including 21 Republicans, rejected the plan (03:00–04:30).
  • Tim Miller: “To me it signals some real bad news for Trump about his lame duckedness and political standing.” (04:30)
• Significance: Alyssa and Tim agree this is the most consequential intra-party resistance Trump has faced since GOP officials blocked his 2020 election steal attempts.
  • Alyssa: “It reminded me there are Republicans and conservatives at the state level who might still believe…in some things, their own state-held power…how they conduct their elections…this is one where it felt like a very red state, Mike Pence’s home state…re-inserting its power.” (04:42–05:00)

2. The Cost and Culture of MAGA Pressure

• Lawmakers Under Fire: Indiana Republicans faced threats and even harassment directed at their families for not towing the Trump line.
  • Tim: “Gene Leising…after she came back to pick [her grandson] up from basketball practice…other players…were receiving text messages…saying, tell your grandmother to get in line and give Mr. Trump what he wants. And she was basically like, hell no. I have not lived 76 years for my grandson to be bullied for this.” (06:09)
• Big Picture: Alyssa notes, “If you’re proud of your agenda and you feel the country’s thriving, you’re not trying to gerrymander…the shit out of states to get more seats. That’s just…not giving confidence.” (06:53)

3. Wider GOP Woes & RNC Malaise

• Low Morale: The new RNC Chair, Joe Gruters, publicly admitted “there’s a pending, looming disaster…The chances are Republicans will go down and go down hard.” (12:40–14:01)
• Tim’s Assessment: “It’s just so un-Trumpy to be like, the chances are we’re going down and going down hard.” (15:01)
• Consequences: Alyssa and Tim discuss the Party’s lack of a North Star, Trump’s disengagement, and the risk that Trump’s absence on the ballot spells doom for GOP candidates.

4. Analyzing the Electoral Landscape

• Midterm Dynamics:
  • Alyssa: “The Republican Party has struggled since Trump has been in the political sphere to win when he’s not on the ballot.” (14:01)
• Potential Shifts: Both entertain the possibility that the Democrats’ surprising strength in New Jersey and Virginia (led by moderates like Mikie Sherrill and Abigail Spanberger) is not being fully internalized by Democratic elites.
• Winning Formulas:
  • Alyssa: “People’s opinions are pretty baked on Trump. They focused a lot on…affordability, health care, rising costs, safety in communities…actively courting people who probably voted for Trump to vote for them. That’s how you win in a purple state and nationally.” (20:43)

5. Infighting and Identity on the Left

• Debate Over Strategy: Tim raises whether Democrats should mimic Trump’s brash style or learn from moderate success. Alyssa urges moderation and warns against underestimating the centrism of the country. (22:29–23:47)
• Kamala Harris Speculation: Alyssa provocatively predicts that unless something dramatic happens, Democrats are likely to nominate Harris again. (23:00–23:47)

6. MAGA Movement and Media Ecosystem Shift

• America First vs. MAGA: Both discuss the intra-right “crack-up,” referencing feuds (e.g., Candace Owens vs. Charlie Kirk, Tucker Carlson’s influence) as symptomatic of deeper fragmentation. (35:11–38:23)
  • Alyssa: “There are creations of the MAGA moment that in some ways are bigger than [Trump] and I think are gonna outlive him. I am horrified…by what you’re seeing on the super online, incredibly influential Right…the darkest of conspiracy theories are completely mainstreamed.” (36:50–38:23)
• Algorithms and Influence: Tim and Alyssa agree that figures like Hannity and even Fox have lost agenda-setting power to more radical, digitally native influencers like Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson. (39:02–39:51)
• Foreign Interference: Alyssa reminds listeners, “America’s adversaries have a hand in that…what’s amplified, what they’re putting money behind, what you’re being served up. It’s the Iranian playbook, the Russian playbook. …They want divisive figures who are going to tear America apart from within.” (39:51–40:46)

7. Inside the Beltway: Institutions at Risk

• DOD Press Access: Tim notes the Department of Defense has kicked out credentialed journalists and replaced them with pro-Trump propagandists. Alyssa is stunned more media aren’t covering it. (46:24–47:31)

  • Alyssa: “I could argue there’s no building in the world more important to cover…with accountability, with transparency, and with real journalistic rigor than the White House and the Department of Defense.” (47:31)

• Caribbean Policy & Trump’s Decision-Making: The hosts debate the administration’s Venezuela and drug interdiction maneuvers—Alyssa is skeptical Trump has a coherent strategy. Both suspect Rubio and Stephen Miller hold more sway, and see reduced checks and balances around policy moves compared to Trump’s first term. (49:00–53:36)

8. White House Personnel and the Death of Dissent

• Absence of Principled Departures: Tim asks if there will be any “Alyssa Farahs” under Trump 2.0, i.e., people willing to break with the administration on principle (54:50). Alyssa doesn’t think so: “Phone hasn’t been ringing.” She predicts future departures will be strategic, not moral. (55:51–57:01)
• Long-Term View: Alyssa: “I think the history books will remember it very differently…but I’m talking a decade out. A lot of the world looks more fondly on George Bush now than they did…10 years ago. I think it’s going to be very different with Donald Trump.” (58:00)
• Durable Damage: Public health, international standing, and democracy itself will bear the consequences, she warns, referencing Bill Gates’ warnings on future health impacts. (58:00–59:04)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Indiana’s Rebellion
  • “I love that. I have not lived 76 years for my grandson to be bullied for this gerrymandered district on behalf of Donald Trump.” —Tim Miller recounting Sen. Leising’s stance (06:09)
• On RNC Pessimism
  • “There’s a pending, looming disaster heading our way…chances are Republicans will go down and will go down hard.” —Joe Gruters, RNC Chair via Tim Miller (14:01)
• On Populist New Media
  • “They created monsters, if you will, and they can’t now walk it back and be like, oh wow, we let this get too bad, too dangerous, too risky.” —Alyssa Farah Griffin on Fox News’ loss of control over MAGA influencers (38:00)
• On the Long Arc of History
  • “I still think the arc of history is long and it’s bending toward everyone being like, well, that was fucking crazy.” —Alyssa Farah Griffin (59:04)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Indiana’s Redistricting Showdown: 03:00–06:53
• Personal Stories & Threats to Lawmakers: 06:09
• RNC Admits Impending Disaster: 12:40–15:33
• Democratic Midterm Lessons: 17:12–23:47
• Left/Right Populism & Campaign Tactics: 24:37–25:38
• MAGA Crack-Up: Online Feuds & Influence: 35:11–39:51
• Foreign Influence & Media Control: 39:51–41:19
• DOD Press and Institutional Erosion: 46:24–48:57
• Venezuela/Caribbean Policy: 49:00–53:36
• White House Personnel & Future of Dissent: 54:50–58:00
• Historical Perspective on Trump Era: 58:00–59:04

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Tone and Closing

Tim and Alyssa’s exchange is fast-paced, self-aware, and grounded in both policy substance and real political culture. The hosts oscillate between gallows humor, earnest concern about threats to democracy, and practical campaign analysis. The undercurrent: even MAGA’s grip has cracks—and real stakes for the country’s future remain up for grabs.

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Transcript

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[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

What do you think makes the perfect snack?

[AM PM Advertiser]

Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Could you be more specific?

[AM PM Advertiser]

When it's cravinient.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[AM PM Advertiser]

Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter available right down the street at am pm. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at a.m. pM.

[Tim Miller]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

[AM PM Advertiser]

Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Crave, which is anything from AM pm.

[AM PM Advertiser]

What more could you want?

[AM PM Advertiser Voice]

Stop by AM PM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience. AM pm Too much good stuff.

[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back to the show. Co host of the View, political commentator for cnn. She used to work for Trump and Mike Pence and some other people. It's Alyssa Farrah Griffin. What's going on, girl? How you doing? It's been too long.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I know. It's so good to see you. I am literally your biggest listener. I don't think I've missed a pod since the last time I was on, which was like well over a year and a half ago.

[Rocket Money Narrator]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Why has it been so long? And you should be giving me some negative feedback then. I mean, I can't be nailing it every day.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

So honest, I was going to tell you this off air, but my husband and I got together with new neighbors and you know, you're trying to like feel out, like sniff out who they are, what they're into. And my husband, husband's more delicate than me, so he's like, so what? Like what Are you listening to any good podcasts and the guy says the bulwark And I was like, we found our people. I love that Owens. And be tough.

[Tim Miller]

We're gonna get to Candace, but while we're glazing each other a little bit, I guess you guys played a clip of the Olivia Nutzy podcast on the View.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

Now I'm working during the day during the View, so I'm watching you guys via clips only. It's nothing but love, but you know, that's just life.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I Hope anyone under 50 listens, watches other than through clips.

[Tim Miller]

I was gonna say, though, my mother's friends, when you played that clip, my mother said her phone was exploding 10, 11 texts from her friends about just my face appearing on the View. So thank you for that.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

We have to make it your not first official appearance though. We've got to have you on in some way in like the flesh.

[Tim Miller]

You just let me know. And you're having a baby. We're going to just do this first too. Then we'll do politics.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I am seven months pregnant and if I'm out of breath, sweating, then cold, then cranky, like all of the things are happening right now, but I'm so excited.

[Tim Miller]

I would have guessed three months. You're looking great.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I like to shoot from here up.

[Tim Miller]

I think we're going to have a happy podcast, which is, you know, out of character. But there's just been a lot of setbacks for MAGA over the past couple of days. The loss for Trump in the gerrymandering fight in Indiana is something I want to spend quite a bit of time on. They proposed some new maps that would have taken the state from being a 7:2 split with seven Republican congressional seats and two Democratic congressional seats to a 9:0 absurd gerrymander that would have given Democrats no representation at all in Indiana. And the Republican state Senate rejected it. I think it's the most consequential setback for Trump within the party at least, or pushback within the party since really Athensberger and Kemp tried to block him from stealing the election in 2020. You might remember that there's a 3119 vote in the Indiana Sen. 21 Republicans joined the 10 Democrats in the state Senate to vote against it. So it was 21 Republicans voted against, only 19,4 so majority against. I didn't even think this was going to be a big fight. You know, it's hard to like, hard to have envisioned this happening a couple months ago. And to me it signals some real bad news for Trump about his like lame duckedness and political standing. But what do you make of it?

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

A bunch of things. I do think it's hugely significant. For one, the fact that this was just talking about adding two seats. It wasn't like we're going to massively which, which by the way matters when you've got a slim majority and he wants to keep the House. But this wasn't his own party bucking him because he was trying to do something so beyond the pale. I think that it, it reminded me that there are Republicans and conservatives at the state level who might still believe in some things their own state held power. The way they conduct their elections, the way that they draw their congressional districts. Because I know you like I have been so frustrated to see. So we've known over the years, frankly over the decades who've kind of just folded on every major issue. And this is one where it felt like a state, a very red state, Mike Pence's home state, that Trump's won, really reinserting its power. And what's also interesting is the dynamics of these threats that some of these lawmakers were facing. They're getting harassment, they're getting death threats. It's interesting to see when like the power of how Trump compels his enemies also is directed at those who really aren't his enemies and are generally with him on most things. It's like, it's like Marjorie Taylor Greene all over again where these lawmakers I bet have voted for him every time. I bet they support 99% of his agenda. But they're like, you know what, we're going to draw our own congressional maps. We're going to make these decisions in the state how we want to. And they're treated no differently than like the biggest MAGA opponent out there.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. The one example of the threats, the story I read, I think this is over at CNN, was there's a 76 year old state centered Indiana, Gene Leasing, I think you said her name. She was speaking at her grandson's middle school. And then later in the day after she came back to pick him up from basketball practice, he kind of was embarrassed to tell her that the other players in the team were Receiving text messages, like, dogging her that day. And there was pressure being put on the grandkids, basically saying, tell your grandmother to get in line and give Mr. Trump what he wants. And she was basically like, hell, no. I have not lived 76 years of my grandson be bull bullied for this gerrymandered district on behalf of Donald Trump. I love that.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I love that 100%. But then also, like, the bigger picture of this is if you're going into the midterms from a place of confidence and like, you're proud of your agenda and you feel like the country's thriving, you're not trying to gerrymander the shit out of states to get yourself more seats. That's just, it's not giving confidence. And I think that, like, listen, the average ballot, like Dems are up by plus 14 points. That's. That's not a great place to be if you're Mike Johnson, if you're the Trump administration. And I think they're realizing it's gonna be a lot harder to make the case for keeping the House than it is to try to win these state level battles like Texas and Indiana.

[Tim Miller]

Mike Johnson was screaming this morning in the hallway about how this wasn't that big of a loss and Trump's not a lame duck. Not a lame duck. And it was kind of reminiscent of, like, my second grader went like, she lost her math notebook yesterday. And I found it and I was like, why did you put it there? And she's like, I found it. I found the math book. And I was like, no, you didn't. I found it. You know, it's just like, the only thing you can resort to is just adamantly, like, yelling. And he felt like a child just like yelling. It's not a lame duck. He's still strong. He's still very strong. It's like, I don't. I think you're yelling and betraying the truth of the situation 100%.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

And I still don't understand how people like Speaker Johnson think this is going to go any differently than it went for Paul ryan, for Kevin McCarthy before him, and for him. You've even got now this reporting that Marjorie Taylor Greene might even try to do, like, a vote of no confidence in him before she leaves the House. A. I love the pettiness of it. Good for her. But there's also such a frustration in the conference. Like, Republicans are not happy with Johnson. They feel like him keeping them out of session to, like, not vote on the Epstein files. They know that's hurting them in their midterms ahead. So I think it's a. He knows it's bigger than the anger he's going to get from Trump. It's also his own people.

[Tim Miller]

Speaking of pettiness and revenge, do you think your old boss, and it feels like your old boss Mike Pence was involved in this and there's some reporting on that. He is doing things behind the scenes. It's hard for me to tell exactly how much, but it seems like he was making some calls whipping.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I have no personal knowledge, but I would say I think that he's an old school conservative in the sense that he believes these decisions should be made by the state lawmakers without federal pressure, without the president even threatening to withhold federal aid to the state. And I think it's pretty aligned with his viewpoints of how Indiana should be able to make determinations on their congressional maps. And I did notice Tim Chapman, who former Heritage Action, been in the conservative movement a million years and now working with Pence, he pushed back super hard at Heritage Action for basically coming out and criticizing Indiana for this decision.

[Tim Miller]

So it was worse than that. Heritage Action was like, had sent this tweet that was basically like, if you don't give Mr. Trump what he wants, like we're not going to give you road fund.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Oh, they've gone full authoritarian. This iteration of Heritage is mind blowing. I stopped even arguing with them because I'm like when you guys are like defending Viktor Orban, you're for like bigger federal government reaching into states to punish states decisions. Like, I don't really know. We don't even meet on anything. Like it's not even worth the conversation.

[Tim Miller]

That's interesting.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Well, I like to think that Pence is behind the scenes, you know, involving himself.

[Tim Miller]

Me too. I usually don't kind of get enamored with like the political fan fiction kind of stuff about the behind secret machinations and payback. And I kind of think it happened though this time. I think that there were machinations. It feels like the fact that this happened in Indiana is not an accident.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Well, and if I could just add on that too, if that is the case that there's Pence involvement, I think it would go, it would be partially about the role of the state, as I said, in setting its own congressional maps. But also there's major agenda sticking points that Pence sees differently from Trump 2.0. And one of them he's been huge, huge in pushing back on the tariffs and that's absolutely hurting Indiana. Big agricultural state, big manufacturing state. So I think it's not. He. It's very unpensy to do something purely out of pettiness. It would be because there's a substantive disagreement that he has.

[Tim Miller]

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[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I literally had to Google this before we were on. I was like, how do I not know? I thought it was Mike Watley, but it's not.

[Tim Miller]

He's something else. Yeah, because he's gonna run for Senate now. Yeah, he's running North Carolina. I also, I saw this guy's name this morning and I was like, it just shows you how much. Trump has, like, taken over everything. You know, it's just like he has totally sidelined all of the other institutions with the Republican Party, which will be, you know, interesting when he goes away. Just going to see how that all shakes out. But some guy named Joe Gruders from Florida, I guess a friend of Susie Wiles, a MAGA guy, is now the chair of the rnc, and he was doing conservative radio rounds this week. He said it's not a secret. There's no sugarcoating it. There's a pending, looming disaster heading our way. He said, we're facing almost certain defeat. The chances are Republicans will go down and will go down hard. That's the chairman of the Republican National Committee. How do you raise money? How do you go to people and say, please give me $100,000 now after I just told you we're going to go down and go down hard? I should say the RNC did reply that the bulwark is nothing more than a bunch of shameless hacks laundering false smears. I don't understand how they're false smears. It was literally what he said on the radio. But anyway, I guess it tells you all you need to know. I'm not even really sure what my question is, but what are your thoughts on RNC's analysis?

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I mean, I think it's very spot on. I think at least they seem aware of the moment that we're in. And you can't chalk this up to expectation setting. Like, it'd be one thing if we were a month out from the midterms. They're like, listen, it's gonna be a tough battle and we've got uphill. That's what you do in politics, unless you're Donald Trump and you say you're gonna win it all and set expectations sky high. But the Republican Party has struggled since Trump has been in the political sphere to win when he's not on the ballot. And they're going into what they went into in 2018, what they went into in 2022, again in these midterms, which is his agenda's on the ballot. But you don't have him lifting other candidates by having his name and his energy on the ticket. And I'm not sure what their. What their plan is going to be. It's clearly not a fundraising boon to be saying we're giving up a year out. What do you make of that, though? I mean, we would have. We would have gotten fired if we said something like this.

[Tim Miller]

Well, and I was just going to Say, I think this guy would have gotten fired in Trump 1.0. I think it's kind of. Maybe he's too focused on the ballroom and stuff to, like, care about this.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

He cares about the RNC that much.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right. Originally there was like a power struggle, you know, that's why he kind of brought Reince over, you know, in the first term, because he was still figuring out, you know, how to open all the doors in D.C. and, like, didn't even start to win himself. Right. And wanted to make sure he had control over everything. But now I agree with you. And like, he, like, he dominates everything so much. It's like, who cares what the RNC says? But still, it's just so un. Trumpy to be like, the chances are we're going down and we're going down hard.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Like, he may have not seen it yet either, and we may get a truth social later. Like, this guy's a know what he's talking about.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that's true. I guess it's probably just a guy that's not very well media trained and he is stating the obvious. Like, this is a classic the Kinsley graph, you know, where you say something that everybody knows is true, but you're just not supposed to say out loud. I mean, it. Also, to your point earlier, like, it is weird how they don't seem to be trying. Like, three months ago, I would have taken a much more dark view of this where I'm kind of like, I don't know that they actually care about elections because they're not. Not intending on contesting. Contesting them. Trump's. Trump's planning on cheating in some way or, you know, doing what he did last time and like, not seating Democrats that win because they're, you know, like, you know, make up some lie about the butterfly ballot or whatever. But now I don't. I don't. It doesn't feel like that is what's happening. Based on what happened a couple weeks ago or last month now, I guess in New Jersey and Virginia, my assessment is that the party is just so dependent on Trump, they don't have a North Star message wise, outside of whatever Trump wants. And Trump feels like he just doesn't care about this stuff anymore. I think he really does care about hanging out with billionaires and getting peace prizes and getting his name on new building. That's my assumption.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

And remodeling.

[Tim Miller]

Right? Yeah. And he doesn't care about what is happening in the midterms or coming up with a winning policy message that will help Republicans down ballot.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Well, it's, it's interesting. I generally agree with that. But so I, I want to say it was late August. I said on the View that I thought if the election was reheld that day, Trump would win, likely by the same, if not a bigger margin. Now, that got gasps and boos and headlines, and I was not saying that's.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with that. I would agree with that.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Yeah, it was not the outcome I wanted, but there in two veins that people who were die hard with him were just as much with him. And you have to run something against someone. And I don't think that there had been some sort of defian thing that made the Democrats come back and feel more formidable. But something happened in this September, October, now through November space. And I think it's a combination of the Epstein betrayal. Republicans in the House basically just absolutely dipping out for not just the month of August, as they always do, but not voting for basically eight weeks, not looking like they're serving the public, and then finally feeling the real impacts of tariffs. The fact that he ran on affordability, he ran on the cost of living, he got elected on that. And everything, with the exception of the stock market, which has good days, has bad days, feels like it's more expensive. People can't get ahead. And I think he, I think his voters feel betrayed. I think it's people within MAGA that do as well. And there seems to be this real weakness. It is kind of encapsulated in the Marjorie Taylor Greene come to Jesus moment of like, it's one thing to run on how you're going to make everything great, but then you're a year in and if people are not feeling that they'll turn on you fairly quickly. They being the voters, but not the elected officials, because they have not learned how to exist in a world where Donald Trump is not like Daddy and in charge of everything and they're standing by him to their own detriment in many ways. Like, they're the ones who are going to have to go to their constituents and say, oh yeah, vote me back when your Obamacare premium spike, when the cost of all groceries are up, and when we just literally lied about releasing the Epstein files and it had to be the Democrats that forced them to get out and a handful of Republicans.

[Tim Miller]

What do you think about that? Counterfactual. Now, if we reheld the election today, who do you think would win?

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

It's honestly still a hard question because of the binary of our politics. I think there's a bit of Very deep frustration with the status quo and with him and with the economy that could make it go a different direction. But I also am not convinced that people are dying for what Democrats put up last cycle. What do you think?

[Tim Miller]

It's hard for me to say out loud. The Democrats I hadn't thought about. I haven't done this little exercise in my brain for a while. I remembered when that little clip of yours went viral and I was like, that's obviously true to me, what you were saying at the time. I thought it was very obvious that despite Trump's very struggles with tariffs, which was I guess the main thing then, that he still would have won again. I'm trying to think about what are the demos that would flip at this point. And Hispanic voters is one that you're seeing in young voters. I think that, that probably the young voter would probably snap back to a more traditional type, but that's a small part of the electorate which is they're less Democrat than they'd been traditionally. And Hispanic voters, I think, particularly working class Hispanics, I think would kind of go back to more of how it was with Biden in 20 rather than the gains in 24. Is that enough flippity states? As you were talking, I pulled up Arizona and I was like, how much did he win in Arizona by? He won by five and a half. I don't know. I kind of wonder if he still would win again. And I think that, to your point about the Democrats struggles, I think that Mikey Sherrill and Abigail Spamberger ran very strong races in New Jersey and Virginia over performed. That'd be the counterpoint to this. But I think those are very unique. You're talking about state races. And I think the national Democrats do still have kind of a brand problem on this stuff that they haven't fixed. It's hard to fix without a leader. Right. Like, who would fix it right now? Like, who's the leader of the party? Schumer. You know what I mean? There isn't really one. I was on Gavin Newsom's podcast yester, maybe him. But that, that vacuum, I think is why I'm hesitant to say that that's the thing.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Like, if this was Europe and you're like, would a vote of no confidence succeed today? I think a vote of no confidence for sure in this administration would succeed, but you have to have that alternative. I do think you're absolutely right, Mikey. Sheryl and Abigail Spanberger ran smart. And they didn't, they didn't make their whole personality being Against Donald Trump. People's opinions are pretty baked on Trump. They focused a lot on the same issues that got him elected. Affordability, health care, rising costs, safety and communities. And they did it in a way that, like, they were actively courting people who probably voted for Trump to vote for them. Like, that's how you win in a purple state and it's how you win nationally.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's interesting. I like, they both exceeded expectations by a lot. And I don't feel like that there's been an update in the conventional wisdom in left circle. You're kind of deep in left circles on the View. I wonder what you think about this. Like, the conventional wisdom in left circles was, after the election, Democrats need to learn some things from Trump about how you communicate, being more in your face, controlling the narrative better, and also focusing on working class people's concerns. Those are kind of the two takeaways. And everybody's like, well, Zoran did that very well. He's good at dominating the narrative, good at focusing on working class concerns. He did that. But Cheryl, really, her actual electoral performance was more impressive given what happened in New Jersey in 24 versus 25. And she is like the opposite of what the conventional wisdom on the left wants. Like, she was not running as like a fire breathing fighter who's going to like, really jack up the base. And what do you think about that? And do you think that, like, we're kind of reliving, you know, a little bit of 2015 where, like, there's just kind of no amount of facts that will change? Like the Democratic base and elites are so enraged about everything that they want somebody who's going to, you know, rub the other side's face in the dirt. And that's, that's more important than anything else.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

It's feeling. Actually, that's a better analogy than I'd use. It's feeling very 2015. But I'd also say, like, what I hear a lot from my friends on the left is like, we want an opposition party, but you guys are an opposition party. You could get more effective. Like, the strategy of opposition, I think has at times been like, chaotic, if not just feckless, but you also just need to be an alternative. And I think there's the people out there, like the James Carvilles of the world, who are pointing to these two moderate wins that they had and that those are states that are purple as opposed to deep, deep blue Manhattan that you should take lessons from. But I've heard more folks who are like, we want Zoran Mamdani. We want Jasmine Crockett. Our country is so polarized, it's so split. And I feel like there, there are more folks who would like to believe that Trump is a fluke despite having been elected twice and won the popular vote, than try to understand that there are. Our country might not be exactly how each of our ideologies are. And the closer you could be to the center, the more likely you are to win nationally. I'm also like, totally bullish that if something dramatic doesn't happen, we have three years. I think the Dems are going to nominate Kamala Harris again. I think they're going to run back. I really do. I know that's not popular wisdom. I think they're going to run it back. I think they're going to. I don't know. But Gavin's been interesting. I think it's a uphill battle, but from a messaging standpoint, he's been interesting.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't know about the Kamala prediction. That's a bold one. It's nice. Good. Now you're, you're officially a pundit now with like, like the Bill Crystal style prediction and things like that. The James Carville line as the Democratic nominee always is the person that can win the black church. And that's been the nominee every cycle. And so that would be the strongest case for running it back. The thing about Zoran, I think it's important to kind of dissect because everybody, what's the line about how winning has a thousand fathers and losing is an orphan or something like that. Everyone wants to project their own interpretation of why Zoran succeeded onto him. But to me, the one thing that's important to just recognize that I think is makes him a little bit of category difference from what we've seen from Crockett so far. She could change her strategy is that both him and Trump did actually try to get voters from the other side.

[Rocket Money Narrator]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Some people in my world on the left have trouble processing that. They're like, what are you talking about? Trump wasn't a moderate. He was so extreme and he wasn't trying to get people from the other side, but he was just not in the way that you would think. In his weird way, he was trying to get over Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr. People from the other side. He wasn't trying to get moderate voters. Like, I'm fiscally conservative and socially moderate. Right. Like, it wasn't those type of moderate voters. It was different. But he was trying to get people on the other side. And Zoran did that, like, actively went after Trump voters and like tried and spoke to them. And I, and I think that that's. Anyway, I do think that's an important lesson that's getting lost a little bit.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

We do still forget the, like, Venn diagram of populist left and populist right. There is an area of overlap that. And also he just ran a smarter campaign. He was where you needed to be on TikTok, on, you know, pods who he was talk. He's running a 2025 race and Cuomo was a terrible candidate. I interviewed him and I was like, what happened to Cuomo of COVID era?

[Tim Miller]

What's it like being on such a deep blue lib bubble right now? It's so different for you and you've been doing it for a while. At the beginning it had to be a little disorienting, but now you're in there, your pals with the ladies and stuff. It doesn't feel like you're doing the Meghan McCain thing where they hate you.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I can genuinely say I really get along with all the women. It's a learning thing for me and it's actually super eye opening still. And I'm like going on five years into this, or I guess four years, coming up on five. It is interesting coming from my world, which is not mine's. My world was much further right than yours was. But to meeting people who just see so many things fundamentally differently than you. But the more time you spend with them, like, you get at why they do and you get that there's depth there, there's reason, there's lived experience. Even if there's certain things we're absolutely never going to agree on. I find it to be total fascinating. I think it's made me think deeper about my own positions. I don't think it's dramatically changed anywhat. I think that I have a much more holistic picture, particularly around the way that race folds into politics. I think there's something that Whoopi's cared about her entire career in public life. I think Sunny Hostin talks about with a lot of. And I many, many times don't agree with their conclusions. But I think it's been easy for me to sort of dismiss things as talking points that are so deeply rooted in people's held positions. And I both of them have opened my eyes to, like, how that factors into things that I might have seen differently.

[Tim Miller]

So any of that going the other way, Are they ever saying stuff where you're just like, guys, I got to take you down to a NASCAR race or something. You guys don't understand what's happening. You're too. You're too ensconced in your bubble.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I think the one that I was, and I said this to all of them directly is like, I'm like practically in some ways, like an abundance Democrat. Like, I'm totally like, where like, I'm like, to the sense that I'm a centrist Republican, but I'm like. My biggest critiques of Democrats actually aren't the identity politics or the like, more annoying in your face things. It's that I'm still convinced that Republicans at the local level just make things work better, quicker. And like, I care about economics. So I feel like I sometimes want to, like, knock my head against a wall when I'm like, no. But like, California is such a poorly run state from virtually every standpoint. That's the one where I'm like, no. Y' all have made me dig in even deeper. There's.

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[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

What do you think makes the perfect snack?

[AM PM Advertiser]

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[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Could you be more specific?

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When it's cray venient. Okay, like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am, pm or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at am, pm.

[Tim Miller]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

[AM PM Advertiser]

Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Crave, which is anything from am, pm.

[AM PM Advertiser]

What more could you want?

[AM PM Advertiser Voice]

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[Tim Miller]

You said that you think Khan was going to run it back, so obviously there's some. There's something there that you think is landing. And she went back and did her second round after. It was like her appearance on the View that got her in trouble during the campaign. What was your sense for her? Like, book tour stuff?

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Well, I would be clear. I don't think she should run again. If the polling was there, she should have run for governor. I think that would have made sense. Start a think tank, be a, you know, an elder states woman of the, of the Democratic Party. I do not think she should run again. My sense with her is I have like, I have this genuine affection for Kamala Harris. I've now interviewed her three times. I believe there is a lot more to her. It's not dissimilar, frankly, from a lot of analyses of Hillary Clinton after she ran in 2016.

[Tim Miller]

I feel the way about Jeb. I feel it about Jeb. Sometimes people make it about. Yeah, sometimes people make it about misogyny. And there is some for sure, but like, some of it is just like the way that you're built and like. And I feel that way about Jeb sometimes.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Listen, Kamala Harris is a smart woman. She's a terrible communicator. I would tell her that to her face. She very well may know in her heart what she wants to say. I know she has deeply held viewpoints on a number of issues, but we live in a day and age where your ability to command a sound bite is as important as like the deepest policy knowledge. Like, we're not electing Paul Ryan's or like whatevers or, or Kemps these days. We're electing people who break through. And I don't see her overcoming that.

[Tim Miller]

Who's come through and has been like. And you've been like, wow, they're good. They're better than I expected as like a guest on the View. Just as far as being able to hang and talk, like putting like policies.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Aside, you know, Josh Shapiro, which is obvious answer but like knows what he believes in, can articulate it doesn't get when he gets pushed to the far left. By certain co hosts. He holds his ground and he's not apologetic. When he gets pulled to the right, maybe by me, he knows definitively what his position is. And then he can banter on like, I think Sarah Haynes did, just like rapid fire, like, favorite Taylor Swift song. Like, just random things. But, like, you have to be able to do that shit in politics. And he can do it without blinking because he's like a real human.

[Tim Miller]

How is our girl Marge? I've been trying to get her on this show and she spurned me for you, so I know I gotta live vicariously through you. Yeah, well, how was she?

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I'm fascinated. I'm still unpacking it in my own heart.

[Tim Miller]

And what, let's see, what was it like off camera?

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

So I went in and talked to her beforehand in the green room. I don't like to be an asshole in politics, so you don't see me, like, name calling people and that kind of thing. At least, like, not on air. I'll say it to their face if I'm going to. And I'd taken some digs at her that went beyond substantive digs. Like I made fun of a coat she wore or something. So I went and introduced myself and I was like, by the way, that was a low point of me. I want to, like, you know, make sure you're welcome. And we actually want to hear from you here. I found her charming. I found her normal, articulate. Like, at commercial breaks, she just kind of wanted to get to know everyone. I'm not in this. Like, she's. She's something different than what she is. But I found her. It was a reminder to me that people are multifaceted. Like, I'm not going to be able to unsee that she, you know, followed parkland kids around and harassed them. But I also can see that when she talks about, like, health care subsidies, I think it's because she genuinely cares about her constituents and she genuinely is, like, angry that we're not trying to solve this problem and we're going to let people's healthcare costs skyrocket.

[Tim Miller]

Genuine is the key word. It's just like, don't bullshit me. I don't know, like, I laughed. It's offensive at some level. So, like, whatever. But, like, she was on 60 Minutes and she's like. I thought there's no better example that she's just being herself than the fact that, like, she's looking at Leslie Stall and she's like, it's your fault that the country is divided. And I one of two of my biggest disappointments with Trump is he's been too pro vaccine and too nice to Israel. And I was just like, okay, all right. That's the point view. At least you know, at least you're not faking it like every senator basically in the Republican Party.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I was like slightly starting to get worked over by her in that segment. And then my co host Sarah Haynes asked her about like appearing with Nick Fuentes and she totally dodged it. And I was like, okay, back to reality. Back to reality listed this is who she is.

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[Sarah]

Hey, this is Sarah. Look, I'm standing out front of a.m. p.m. Right now and well, you're sweet and all, but I found something more fulfilling, even kind of cheesy. But I like it. Sure, you met some of my dietary needs, but they've just got it all. So farewell Oatmeal So long, you strange soggy.

[AM PM Advertiser Voice]

Break up with bland breakfast and taste AM PM's bacon and cheese biscuit made with cage free eggs, smoked bacon and melty cheese on a buttery biscuit. AM PM Too much Good stuff.

[Tim Miller]

What do you make of the mag Crack Up Happening. We were talking for a second. The Green Room. We both are obsessed with the Candace feud. People can go over to Bullock Takes if they want because I don't want to subject everybody to this. I did a 35 minute solo monologue on like a 4 minute clip of Tucker and Theo Vaughn talking about the Charlie Kirk assassination, because I was like, this is really bad. Like, like, the Ovan is the second biggest podcast in the country right now, according to Spotify last year. And Tucker's on there being like, who knows? I can't trust the government. I'm like, he confessed. What are you talking about? He confessed. He's on tape. But to me, there's that part of the crack up, which is like the fight over Charlie's legacy, which is gossipy and dishy and kind of fun. But then I also feel like there's a real substantive potential crack up happening. And when Marjorie talked about the difference between America first and maga, I thought that was a good way of summarizing it. So anyway, just take that any way you want.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

So I don't know, we're going to attribute this to the fact that I'm about to have a baby. So I'm thinking a lot more like big picture. I. I honestly, like, delve into the weeds of what obnoxious thing Trump did that day, only to the degree that I need to be able to talk about it in an informed way on TV and otherwise for, like, my mental health and well being. I'm much more consumed by, like, these bigger existential questions of, like, who are we as Americans, where are we going as a country? And I remind myself that, like, like, yeah, three years, a lot can happen, but, like, my child's not gonna remember Donald Trump as president. You know what?

[Rocket Money Narrator]

My child.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I know, I know.

[Tim Miller]

What's the saddest part about his win? For me, I was like, she's gonna remember him now.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

And she wouldn't remember Obama probably, if she's second grade.

[Tim Miller]

No, no.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Yeah. But my son will probably know who Candace Owens is, who Nick Fuentes, who some of these people are. And there are these characters and creations of the MAGA moment that in some ways I think are bigger than him and I think are gonna outlive him. Yes, he's the dominant force in elected politics in both of our lifetimes and probably our grandparents lifetimes. I am horrified, freaked out, terrified in a darker and deeper way than I am by the fact that Trump is president for a second time, by what you're seeing on the super online, incredibly influential. Right. That just not antisemitism, but like the deepest, most in your face, Neo Nazism, white nationalism, the darkest of conspiracy theories are completely mainstreamed. And when I'm not living in my, like, politics space, I'm like a Bravo reality tv. Like, that's what I spend my time With I see people I follow there who are like, huge followings. They love Candace Owens. They love some of these people. I don't. I don't know that we're wrapping our heads around how ingrained this is. And then this sort of Fox shakeup with it where you had Hannity kind of pushing back, you had Erica Kirk on Outnumbered pushing back without naming Candace Owens, it honestly underscored that something like Fox that helped create some of these individuals is now far less powerful than they are on their own. They created monsters, if you will, and they can't now walk it back and be like, oh, wow, we let this get. Too bad, too dangerous, too risky.

[Tim Miller]

Wow, you've fully gone into my space. Not like the old. Not like the old social media place, like the Tim Miller worldview. Are you over. You are listening too much not to take credit for that, but maybe take a break. Because I look at what JD is doing is the most telling part about this. He won't distance himself from it. And he's got Tucker's kid on his staff. And, you know, and Tucker's kid is a grown man. So, like, you don't want to bring in family, but, like, he's a grown man who's a key advisor to the Vice president.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

He's fair game.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so the fact that jd, who knows that, who basically recognizes that if he is going to win a primary, he can't alienate those folks, that shows how big their power is.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And so to me, the two elements that make me the most both concerned about it and also kind of confident that this is a trajectory and this is the fight ahead is that is JD's behavior and the algorithms, and I don't know what the solution is to that with the big tech companies, but it's just like Hannity's not a mice now. It's funny that Hannity's like the normal one now or whatever, but, like, Hannity isn't showing up. Yeah, he's not showing up on my, you know, for you page. The National Review people aren't. You know what I mean? Like, whoever is representative that Nikki Haley isn't. Her son who's gone insane is. Speaking of kids, you know what I mean? The only people that. That folks are getting delivered are in the Candace Tucker kind of mold. And that's, like, extremely alarming.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

And we can't. We can never talk about the algorithm conversation without remembering that, like, America's adversaries have a hand in that. What's amplified what they're putting money behind what you're being served up to. This is something. It's the Iranian playbook, It's the Russian playbook. It's not always as clear cut. The way our adversaries work is like, we want this person in office. We don't want this person. What they want are divisive figures who are going to tear America apart from within. Amplified listened to trusted and beloved. And I think one of the really devastating things about the way the election went was there was this DOJ investigation into some of these, you know, very prominent MAGA influencers who were basically being paid through a shell company, maybe not knowing. I want to be clear. They may have not known, but by foreign adversaries to promote certain properties.

[Tim Miller]

They're getting paid a lot of money, though.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

So much money.

[Tim Miller]

They knew it was something weird. You know, as someone who's in the content game, like, I'm not getting paid $25,000 per video or something, whatever it.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Was, I would ask them questions, right? But that. That was as clear as we needed to know that that is an active space that America's adversaries are playing in. And it just kind of disappeared from the public consciousness. And I don't think most people realize that, like, when you're being served whatever lunatic conspiracy theory Candace or someone might be serving up to you that day, that it's not just how popular she is. It's not just how many Americans actively choose to opt into that. That it's an algorithm our adversaries have had their fingers on to get in front of us to tear us apart.

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[Sarah]

Hey, this is Sarah. Look, I'm standing out front of a.m. p.m. Right now and, well, you're sweet and all, but I found something more fulfilling, even kind of cheesy. But I like it. Sure, you met some of my dietary needs, but they've just got it all. So farewell, oh meal so long, you strange soggy.

[AM PM Advertiser Voice]

Break up with bland breakfast and taste AM PM's bacon, egg and cheese biscuit made with cage free eggs, smoked bacon and melty cheese on a buttery biscuit. A.m. p. M. Too much. Good stuff.

[Tim Miller]

So I'm interested because I would have thought this would have been a disagreement that we have, but maybe not. But what if Glenn Youngkin or whoever, Nikki Haley or whoever represents that more traditional part of the Republican Party called you and was like, do you think that, that there's a lane for me to run against JD or whoever would represent the more conspiratorial maga lane? Like, do you think that there's anything there? Did Indiana give you any hope on that front? Or is this.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I mean, today I don't think there's a lane, but I do think three years of what could be ahead could create one. I'm still convinced that there's some very scary things happening in the country, but I still think we're a center left, center right country. I still think that, you know, educated voting blocs especially. But, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't limit it to that. I think we'll want something different. I think there's a world that we could get past the midterms and it won't be a question of who is vying most for Trump's endorsement. It could actually be who needs to distance themselves to get elected. That's. That's a possibility. It feels really distant right now, but it's possible.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with you. That's possible, but like, not. I mean, I think things are bad.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Now and it worked.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, like legit recession.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I want to be careful how I say this because my POV as a Christian is I still just like, pray for the greatest success of America with the leaders that we have. I don't want bad to have a bad outcome for him or for anyone. I disagree with but listen, every president faces, whether it's public health crises, national security crises, natural disasters, economic ones, things are going to happen in the next three years that require intentional, thoughtful, adult leadership. And in even looking at the first term, he does not rise to the moment in those. In those moments. And I don't think he has a team around him that's nearly as competent. Their ability to handle them is the first term. So who knows? It could go a lot of directions. But it's also possible he leaves office, they put his face on Mount Rushmore, and it's JD Versus Marco for, you know, the nomination.

[Tim Miller]

Are you surprised that he hasn't come for you yet? Trust me, Trump, doesn't he feel like he deserves his own woman on the chair? Should that feels like something he would care about? Oh, no, I didn't.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I was like, do you mean prosecuting?

[Tim Miller]

No, I meant like, you know, the Jimmy Kimmel stuff. Like, you know, shouldn't Alyssa be replaced with Caroline and her beautiful lips? He talked about her beautiful lips yesterday.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Listen, the View's gotten some of the FEC scuttlebutt and those kind of things. And I would just remind folks of this two things. Our media has never been more democratized than it is right now. Have the View and then you have the Five. I don't see liberals out there being like, we need more just Tarlovs. Get rid of Gutfeld. Like, it's a model of a show that just happens to work. There are days that I'm like, it would be nice to have someone a little more ideologically aligned here. But it's the show. It's what our audience wants. And on top of having total dominance in cable news with Fox News, he's now got his Newsmax, Real American News, and all of these, like, podcasts. Republicans used to have a pretty legitimate claim to be like, we are so underrepresented in mainstream media and. But it's just not really the case anymore.

[Tim Miller]

Opposite, maybe.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Yeah. It's never been a magazine, though, for what it's worth. This is the other thing people don't necessarily get is, like, you have to be able to do the political segments with strong personalities and viewpoints. But then you have to be able to book and interview Kim Kardashian or Glenn Close or whoever it might be. And a lot of celebrities are not going to put themselves in that position if you have deeply polarizing voices. Network is just very different than cable.

[Tim Miller]

Glenn Close doesn't want to get the business from Sarah Hokini Sanders. I guess she's the governor of Arkansas now. She's got other stuff to do. I want to go back to your DOD hat really quick because you're a spokesperson there for a little bit. Excuse me. I guess Dow. Oh, yeah, Department of War, a couple of things. So what's happening with the press? The credentialed press is crazy. I don't feel like it gets enough attention. The department that covers the military, whatever you want to call it, has kicked out all the actual journalists and replaced them with North Korean like agit prop hacks. And not only are they doing like just basically PR for the admin, there's a story from Mother Jones. I don't know if you saw this yesterday, where Mother Jones was asking a question about the background of one of Hex House advisors and Jack Posobiek, who is one of the few credentialed press that they have in there. Like, then started emailing this guy and bullying him and threatening him. And it's like, wait a minute, I thought, I thought Jack was in the press. Like he's doing pr like Roger Stone type, type, you know, work on behalf of the department, on behalf of the secretary. And it's crazy what's happening.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

It's so wild. And it is, it is stunning that it hasn't been a bigger story than it is. Like, keep in mind there are two people on the planet who can launch military operations on behalf of the US Government. Pete Hegseth of Fox and Friends weekend fame and the President of the United States. I could argue there's no building in the world more important to cover with just vigor, with accountability, with transparency, and with real journalistic rigor than the White House and the Department of Defense. And the fact that we're basically applauding that we have people who are there as cheerleaders for the administration over actual journalists. It goes against so much of what you and I would have believed in as old school Republicans. But I have to commend there've been a handful of folks who just keep trolling them and being like, when are you gonna break some news? Because meanwhile, you have reporters like Dan Lamoth at the Washington Post, Jennifer Griffin at Fox News. They're not even physically in the building and they are breaking news. They're still working sources and they're still giving the public what we need to know about what's happening at dod. Natasha Bertrand's great at cnn. I don't know, I think that there's this feeling of like, sort of victimhood among this era of Republicans, of like we're underrepresented. We need our people. We need X, Y and Z. And I'm like, you've got it all. But we didn't want it so that we could go be puppets for, like, the government that's in power for the state. That's not. That's never been the goal. It's weird. It's. It's honestly extremely jarring to see.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. What. What's your take on what's happened in the Caribbean?

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

All right, so I've got to take that. Apparently pissed some folks off, but I'll tell you.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, great. Is Republican. Is neocon Alyssa about to come back out? And she's like, let's. Let's. Regime change in Venezuela. Should we be expanding to Colombia?

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

So I'm totally with, like, the Rand Pauls of the world on these drug boat interdictions. I don't think there' a legal justification. I think the facts do not pan out, that this is some sort of immediate threat to the United States. There's questions over if these drugs were even coming here. We know the bulk of fentanyl is not coming from Venezuela. And by the way, to Trump's credit, he largely secured the border. Even if they get it here, it's going to get interdicted on the ground in the United States. I do actually think that this, this tanker interdiction, I think is both legal and I think it does make some sense. This was a boat that had previously been sanctioned, mentioned because it was trafficking oil between Iran. There's others that have with the Russian government. I think that's in the purview of what we can do in that region. What I'm just super curious about is, like, in the first term, we had this big diplomatic push to get Maduro out. It was basically Pence, Bolton and Pompeo led. I think anyone left, right and center can agree Maduro's a dictator. He's savaged a country that was once one of the most prosperous in the region. And the world would be better if he's gone, but you don't have to support regime change. But it was very diplomatic led. We basically tried to get every nation in the Western hemisphere to support the opposition leader who was then Juan Guaido. We tried to get his credentials yanked at the UN but no one ever talked about the idea of a military solution. I'm fascinated that in this, like, America first moment, no new wars ending wars all over the world, that this is where the focus has gone. I still remain bullish that there's no way. Way. Trump puts boots on the ground in the Western Hemisphere other than maybe, like, at the southern border.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Right.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

But I'm, I'm. I'm actually have a question mark over what the big end game here is. It may be a posturing against Russia. There's probably an oil and rare earth minerals component, but I'm not clear. Usually I have a pretty good read on what he's doing, and I'm not sure. What do you think?

[Tim Miller]

Me neither.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Yeah, I'm curious.

[Tim Miller]

I don't think he knows. I don't think he knows what he's doing. I think that this is Rubio and Miller. Miller, Stephen Miller pushed for. I feel like, in some ways, kind of like the Iran strike, where it's like, Trump is like, I'm for it. As long as it's good. As long as it's going well. As long as I can just say, like, we're killing bad guys, like, I'm for it. So I agree with you. I think he's gonna be hesitant to actually advance it much beyond what's happening now. But, I mean, what's happening now is crazy. You do gloss over it a little bit, but you were in there. Just give you a little perspective. Like, you were in there in the first Trump term, which is meaningful. About the difference between now and then was the fact that they don't seem to care at all about legal authority for Stu when you were there working for Esper. Like, the process, I have to imagine, was, like, pretty rigorous as far as making sure there was legal weigh in on what we were doing.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Yeah. I think that an undertold story of first term versus second is just how fundamentally different it is at every agency and the White House's vantage point to the agencies and I mean, the kind of cliche example everyone gives is like, you wouldn't even have a Robert Mueller in term two. You wouldn't have a special counsel. Like, DOJ would never hire that person. They'd never appoint that person. But it kind of does go to every single agency. Definitely a dod. I mean, I remember a number of directions or ideas that came from the White House that then there would be pushback from the Joint Chiefs, from the Secretary of Defense, and it'd be a dialogue the way that it's supposed to be. That's exactly how it should happen. And I wonder how much that happens now. And I wonder about some of the caliber of advisors. Like, listen, we know Rubio. Rubio is a very, very savvy and smart person. He's Got an outsized portfolio. But I also look at things with him from the vantage point of he clearly has presidential ambitions and how does he navigate that? I don't think he's necessarily some kind of backstop against some of the more dangerous instincts. I think it's more how do I stay aligned and build my own sort of accomplishments for when I eventually run for office. Office, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And you don't have a Mueller, but you don't even have like Don McGann. I'm not a huge Don McGahn fan myself, but like the White House counsel's Cipollone in the first term, it seemed to me like we're at least providing legal guidance. It was like you cannot do. Yeah. Telling them that you can't do certain things. It's not clear to me there's any legal guidance telling them not to do anything.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Same. And I think that there's also this sort of baked in philosophy of let the courts oppose it. Like basically, let's do what we want. If the courts are going to step in, allow it. We all know the courts take time. They actually, I think in many ways have been like a pretty successful backstop against some of the less than legal decisions. But I think they're very, very big and it's a strategic decision to push the power of the executive and let the courts kind of decide what they can do.

[Tim Miller]

Do you talk to like Esper at all or any of the folks from.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Esper I keep up with.

[Tim Miller]

What's his view on things? I should get him on. Tell him to come on the pod.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

You actually should get him on. He does do a ton of media, although he does some. But I think that it's going about as we all expected. I don't want to speak for him, but I think it's going about as we all expected. But listen, I'll say this, like I'm always going to be in the business of trying to call balls and strikes to the degree that I can. Like I supported the Iran I so strikes. I don't think that they were definitive. I don't think they ended the nuclear threat.

[Tim Miller]

But like you and Bill Crystal.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Yeah. I'm going to look for the moments. I think the cease fire, as, you know, tenuous as it may be, I think that was largely a good thing. So like, find those bright moments. Find your glass half full moments.

[Tim Miller]

Here's one. But last thing I just want to ask you about, given your experience, here's. I'm sorry, I'm not going to end on a glass Half full moment. This wouldn't be the Bowler podcast if we ended on that. It is striking how there are not Alyssa's really this time. And I guess your departure came at the end of the first term, but even then throughout there were various people and I do think it shows that we're at a different time. Everybody that signed up for this knew what they were getting into. It doesn't seem like there are any Alyssa's. And I mean this in the sense of when we talked for my book and we talked about you going in, you had reservations not going in at all. And we're weighing this question of like I have my concerns about Trump, but is that outweighed by public service and doing you can't. It doesn't feel like any of the people in this time had those reservations. And I don't think we're going to be seeing people doing principal departures. Maybe that's me being pessimistic though. I don't know. It feels like you'd be the person people would call if they were thinking about doing it. So what do you think?

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Phone hasn't been ringing. I generally agree right now, but I think that I think a couple of things. I think the closer to the midterms we get and looking like the balance of power is going to change in Congress, I think you'll see some higher level departures, probably cabinet level, which will do the I served, you know, two years, blah, blah, I'm doing other things. But they want to avoid congressional oversight. They've gotten the benefit of a whole year of not having to do other anything other than kind of the pro forma showing up. I think you'll.

[Tim Miller]

They're not going to trash them on the way.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

No, I don't think that. But I think we're still very early in. I think there are some parallels to 2017 and sort of that first iteration of characters that there are to now. And I think that I could see a world I think this is much more staffed with loyalists. I think it's people who are truly bought into the agenda who probably don't have any significant doubts about him. I think that's largely what he's surrounded by. But I do think if his popularity continues to wane the way that it is, that could change in two years. I don't know if it will. I don't know that it's going to necessarily come from a massive place of principle so much as like the political winds are shifting. But that could happen.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I hope so. I don't know, I've gone from a place where, I don't know. A couple of years ago I would have said, said that I did used to say this. It's along the lines of like, eventually everyone is going to agree with me, so you might as well agree now. That's the case I used to make to like fellow Republicans and I don't they feel that way anymore. I think that there's. I think that the folks that are in this time are pretty much going to be dead enders. And I think that is a notable change. Do you have a better, more optimistic view?

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I agree. I actually agree with your earlier assessment, but I think it's at like a decade for from now. So I think it's when your daughter's getting ready for college. I still believe.

[Tim Miller]

When I'm a grandfather.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Yeah, exactly. I still believe.

[Tim Miller]

And I won't be letting those folks off the hook. I'll just let you know. Yeah, you have the full dispensation from me. Alyssa, we've been around the bend, but if you quit in 2027, I'm sorry, that's not. And we're in the old folks home together. I'm not sitting next to you in the cafeteria. Okay.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

I think that there are some things that are so sweeping in the way that they can be damaging to the long term of the country that I think the history books will remember it very differently. But I'm talking a decade out. A lot of the world looks more fondly on George Bush now than they did, you know, 10 years ago. I think it's going to be very different with Donald Trump. And I, I would point to USAID giving up our soft power on the world stage, our betrayal of our own fellow Americans through cutting cancer research, all of these health changes that we're seeing, we're going to bear the consequences of that for years to come. I interviewed Bill Gates about it and we had him on the View and he was painting a dire warning about what we've done to public health in this country. Things like that I think are going to mar the way this period's remembered. And then of course, the just anti Democratic actions. I do think there's an appetite for it. I think we're in a populist moment and people, more Americans are kind of okay with it than are deeply opposed to it right now. But I still think the arc of history is long and it's bending toward everyone being like, well, that was fucking crazy.

[Tim Miller]

God willing your lips to God's ears. Alyssa Farah Griffin thank you. Let's not do a year and a half next time again soon. Good luck with that baby and keep us posted. Post some pictures on Instagram.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

All right, will do. Appreciate it.

[Tim Miller]

Everybody else will be back here Monday with Phil, Crystal. See you all then. Peace.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Going back to Indiana Indiana, here I go I spin my wings with greener pan I still ain't found what I was after I got the clues and that is why I see I just want to do my thing yeah, I'm going back to the Indiana Indiana, here I come yeah, yeah I'm going back to Indiana that's where my baby's from. Yeah. Okay, Tito. You got it.

[Tim Miller]

The Boar Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

What do you think makes the perfect snack?

[AM PM Advertiser]

Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Could you be more scared specific when it's cravenient? Okay.

[AM PM Advertiser]

Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am, pm Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at a.m. pM.

[Tim Miller]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

[AM PM Advertiser]

Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.

[Alyssa Farah Griffin]

Crave, which is anything from am, pm.

[AM PM Advertiser]

What more could you want?

[AM PM Advertiser Voice]

Stop by AMPM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravinience am, pm Too much good stuff.