Andy Beshear and Terry Moran: The Power of Normal People

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast – November 4, 2025

Episode: Andy Beshear and Terry Moran: The Power of Normal People

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Tim Miller is joined by Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear and veteran journalist Terry Moran to discuss contemporary American politics, the challenges facing liberal democracy, and the importance of “normal people” in shaping political outcomes amid polarization. Beshear offers candid insights into Democratic strategy in red states, messaging on cultural and economic issues, and policy implementation—while Moran shares on-the-ground reflections from Chicago on immigration crackdowns and the late Dick Cheney’s legacy. The conversation spotlights authenticity, practical governance, and the evolving challenges of media and populism in the United States.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Remembering Dick Cheney – Complexity and Courage

Timestamps: 00:59–05:41, 48:16–53:55

• Main ideas: Tim Miller and Terry Moran reflect on Dick Cheney’s political legacy, focusing on both his controversial role in the Iraq war and his principled stands, particularly in support of his daughter Liz Cheney’s dissent against Donald Trump.
• Memorable quote:
  • “On this day, I’m going to remember Dick Cheney as a father, somebody who took on two politically toxic, seemingly hopeless and morally righteous causes on behalf of his daughters. And he did so clear and steely eyed, as he did on everything else.” — Tim Miller (04:19)
  • “First thing that I thought of when he died… to me, the most important question…is… are they true patriots? …He had terrible judgment, obviously, and a kind of strange paranoia… but he loved the country.” — Terry Moran (49:10)
• Moran recounts Cheney’s "old school" politics and trust in the press, noting the “grease in the gears” such relationships provided—even as he affirms Cheney led the country “in the wrong direction” on Iraq.

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2. Andy Beshear: Governing as a Democrat in Red America

Timestamps: 05:42–46:06

Impact of Federal Government Shutdown & SNAP Funding

• Kentucky is losing critical SNAP support due to partial funding during the shutdown—affecting 600,000 Kentuckians, “particularly in a country that grows enough food for everyone.” (07:22)
• Beshear sued the administration for partial SNAP funding, securing a ruling for at least partial restoration.

Rural and Agricultural Policy Challenges

• Trump-era tariffs and bailouts “hammer” Kentucky farmers, pushing buyers to Brazil and Argentina, harming soybean and cattle markets.
  • “The Trump administration may be the worst presidential administration towards farmers that I’ve seen in my lifetime.” — Andy Beshear (09:12)
• Rural small businesses are laying off workers due to increased costs from trade policies.

Messaging to Rural and Red Communities

• Beshear emphasizes the lasting Democratic failure to invest in rural America, while Republicans demonized Democrats.
  • “One of the challenges in rural America is the national Democratic Party for decades didn’t invest.” (11:07)
• Trump owns his policies and their impacts—tariffs, chaos, “every which way.”
• Bottom line: Frame issues in real, emotional terms (addiction vs. substance use disorder, “seniors going hungry” vs. “food insecure”).

Navigating Culture Wars and Identity

• Beshear’s formula: focus 80% on bread-and-butter issues (jobs, health care, schools, safety) that affect everyone; be authentic and speak plainly.
  • “Democrats, we just need to spend more of our time on what are really nonpartisan issues that better people’s lives and show we are the party that gets results.” (16:59)
• Authenticity and "the why" matter: He ties his social policy stances (LGBTQ, abortion) to his faith and values.
  • “My faith… teaches me that all children are children of God. And I didn’t want people picking on those kids.” (19:29)
• Democrats need inclusivity, not litmus tests; “We should be the party of the American dream…not just the party of this issue or that issue.” (24:28)

On Effective Government and Regulation (Klein's "Abundance" critique)

• Acknowledge too much bureaucracy delays projects (rural broadband), undermining confidence in government.
  • “If we create so many hoops… and three years later there’s not one inch of fiber in the ground, we’ve got to recognize we’re doing something wrong.” (27:25)
• Beshear argues Democrats must be both pro-worker and pro-business, emphasizing results and efficiency, not party coding.

Democratic Strategy and the "Normal Person" Factor

• Focus should be on universally felt challenges (cost of living, jobs), with simple, unifying messaging—not micro-targeting or coalition-splitting.
  • “I think Democrats…were saying, well, we have to have 76% of this group and… …sending different messages to all of them. And to give the Trump campaign credit, they said, let's do 3% better with everyone.” (30:05)

Election Lessons and Party Leadership

• Democrats lose when perceived as distracted or focused on “other” issues; need visibility, speedy results, and reminders of tangible progress.
• Age and visibility: Beshear suggests Biden’s administration was hampered by the pandemic, lack of visibility domestically, and the age factor.
  • “Oh, I think age played a role. There’s no question that age played a role.” (37:54)

Looking Ahead: Democrats in Red States & Increasing Fight

• Beshear highlights candidates like Rob Sand (Iowa) and the “normal person” model as keys for future wins.
• On fighting the opposition:
  • “I get excited about debates and I take it right to my opponent.” (44:18)
• On Bourbon: Favors Michter’s, Eagle Rare, and Woodford Reserve Double Oak (46:06)

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3. Terry Moran: Chicago's Immigration Crackdown and the Power of Normies

Timestamps: 48:16–62:06

On-the-Ground in Chicago: Normal People Resisting

• Moran observes an immigration crackdown sparking fear and resistance, not just among activists but “the normies” (everyday citizens—parents, community members, priests).
  • “When you get the normies to come out of their house and say, this is wrong, I need to do something about it... Chicago felt decisive to me.” (55:13)
• Catholic priests’ actions—attempting to bring communion to detention centers—resonate with calls to common decency and patriotism. Acts of witness challenge the cruelty of policy direction.

The Lived Impact

• Hispanic neighborhoods like Little Village resemble ghost towns due to ICE raids; local commerce plummets as even U.S. citizens avoid going out for fear of mistaken identity.
  • “It was absolutely deserted. It was like a ghost town... for a mile and a half or so, 26th street... chock a block with stores...the main street of Latino Chicago… 60% down.” (60:11)
• Moran: The crackdown is not solely about immigration but an assertion of force and expanding federal authority.

Split Reactions and American Pragmatism

• Some residents support the raids in principle (wanting border security), but are unsettled by the harshness and scale.
• Americans, he argues, value what works, are not ideological, and resist surrendering their conscience to leaders.

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4. Trump, Media Strategy, and Interviewing Authoritarians

Timestamps: 62:35–69:50

• Trump White House is escalating immigration enforcement; unconcerned with backlash and bent on expanding force.
• Moran critiques media handling of Trump, especially the recent “soft” 60 Minutes interview:
  • “You have to pick a spot and communicate to the audience… and just for the principle of it, you have to stand up for what actually factually is true. And he hates that.” (66:36)
• Moran’s own style: Be respectful but persistent, choosing key facts to stand ground—“You can’t relitigate the 2020 election or whatever...But you have to stand up for what actually factually is true.” (66:36)

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5. Reflections on Media, Public Roles, and Personal Changes

Timestamps: 69:50–71:57

• Moran describes post-ABC life as “like Dorothy, walking out of black and white into color”—hard, but liberating.
• Joy of independent journalism and freedom from corporate oversight, though it’s more challenging.

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Notable Quotes

• On the Democratic Path in Red America:
  “It’s not a particular view on an issue as much as how much time that the people of America think we spend on any one issue.” — Andy Beshear (16:09)

• On Leadership and Authenticity:
  “People in Kentucky don’t call me governor, they call me Andy.” — Andy Beshear (22:06)

• On ICE Raids in Chicago:
  “It is not decided, but it is the decisive place… when you get the normies to come out of their house and say, this is wrong...” — Terry Moran (56:49)

• On Immigration Enforcement:
  “It’s what permits him to use force in a way that… isn’t necessary. You don’t need the military in these cities. And the manner in which they’re rounding people up… is to send a message that we have the force…” — Terry Moran (61:11)

• On Trump Media Strategy:
  “He wants to invent a reality where he is king of the world. And… you don’t have to be a jerk about it, but you have to stand up for [the truth]. Otherwise, what’s the point?” — Terry Moran (66:36)

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------|---------------| | Dick Cheney’s legacy | 00:59–05:41 | | Andy Beshear interview begins | 05:42 | | SNAP/Food Security in Kentucky | 06:46–08:44 | | Trump-era Ag Policy, Rural Economy | 09:12–13:09 | | Democratic Messaging in Red States | 11:07–11:53 | | Framing vs. Policy on Social Issues | 16:09–18:34 | | Democrats’ “Why” and Faith | 19:29–23:35 | | On Inclusion vs. Litmus Tests | 24:28–26:10 | | Government Effectiveness/Regulation | 27:10–29:20 | | The “Normal Person” Lane | 30:05–31:22 | | Retrospective on Biden’s Performance | 34:26–37:54 | | Democratic Candidates in Red States | 39:49–42:25 | | Closing with Andy Beshear | 46:47 | | Terry Moran on Cheney & Chicago | 48:16–56:49 | | ICE Raids' Local Impact | 59:24–60:47 | | Trump Administration/Media Interviews | 62:06–69:50 | | Reflections on Media/Independence | 69:50–71:57 |

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Summary Tone and Style

The episode maintains an accessible, candid tone—mixing policy analysis, first-person anecdotes, humor, and heartfelt reflections. Governor Beshear’s pragmatic centrism and plainspoken manner contrast with the charged politics of the day, while Terry Moran’s sharp reporting and nuanced storytelling bridge national issues and local realities. Tim Miller’s questioning is persistent but collegial, keeping the conversation rooted in both lived experience and higher political principle.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

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[Terry Moran]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Andy Beshear]

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[Terry Moran]

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[Tim Miller]

Hey y'. All, we got an absolutely packed show today, but I got a few quick notes for you. First. We're going to stay mostly away from today's off year elections in Virginia, New Jersey and New York as we're going to have a deep dive on that on tomorrow's pod. And if you want to join us to watch along live tonight, we're going to have a full rundown on YouTube starting at 8 Eastern with Sam Stein and some friends. And then we're going to have a live Next Level podcast sometime around 9:15ish when we have a sense for the results. So hang out with us on YouTube tonight. Before we get to our guests, Governor Andy Mashear and Terry Moran, who I'm super excited about, I wanted to speak briefly about the death of Dick Cheney. Bill Kristol and JBL will have much more on that over on the Bulwark Ticks feed if that is of interest. But as for me, I never worked for Dick Cheney. I don't think I ever met him. Not that I can recall. I was a campaign guy of a different era. It's an unfortunate reality that the first line of any obit about the former vice president must be his spearheading of the disastrous Iraq War, which was somehow the single worst policy choice of my lifetime, including all the crap Trump has thrust upon us. There was a war that caused incalculable death and suffering for far too many and shit. I mean, I think it very well may have led us to this populist nationalist moment. So I don't think there's any sense in trying to spin or whitewash that. But alongside of that, humans are complicated and complex. We all contain noble and ignoble within us. If nothing else, we know that Dick Cheney was a good and loyal father and husband. I went back and rewatched the 2000 vice presidential debate and he basically comes to the left of Joe Lieberman on the question of gay marriage. He said he wanted to be open minded and tolerant. On that, he said that the state should decide. He was no doubt influenced in those remarks by his daughter Mary. Then, four years later, in August 2004, while the Bush campaign was running decidedly ignoble tactics on the topic, Dick Cheney spoke out at a campaign stop in Mississippi, of all places. He said freedom means freedom for everyone. People ought to be free to enter any type of relationship they want to. It was a position obviously out of step with his boss, with both major parties at the time, Even his daughter Liz didn't go that far in her campaign for Senate. Almost a decade later, it was an important and significant thing for the then sitting Vice president to stand out for people's right to enter into a marriage if they want to, no matter their sexual orientation in the Deep South. On a campaign trail in 2004, then again more recently in August 2022, Dick Cheney actually made me cry. He ran this ad on behalf of his daughter's hopeless campaign for reelection following her bucking of Trump after the insurrection. I just want to play a little clip from it.

[Terry Moran]

Lynn and I are so proud of Liz for standing up for the truth, doing what's right, honoring her oath to the Constitution when so many in our party are too scared to do so. Liz is fearless. She never backs down from a fight. There is nothing more important she will ever do than lead the effort to make sure Donald Trump is never again near the Oval Office. And she will succeed.

[Andy Beshear]

I am Dick Cheney.

[Terry Moran]

I proudly voted for my daughter.

[Andy Beshear]

I hope you will too.

[Tim Miller]

Liz obviously didn't succeed in that fight based on where we are. But it was an important fight and it was one that came against interests and came against their family history and against their social circle. It was not an easy thing to do. It took courage. It took backbone. We are continuing to hold the torch for Dick Cheney in this fight today. And so on this day, I'm going to remember Dick Cheney as a father, somebody who took on two politically toxic, seemingly hopeless and morally righteous causes on behalf of his daughters. And he did so clear and steely eyed, as he did on everything else. So rest easy, Dick Cheney. My love to Liz and his family who are dealing with this loss today. Up next, Andy Bashir and Terry Moran. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We got a doubleheader today in segment two. It is. Terry Moran has been reporting live from Chicago. But first, he needs a pretty short introduction. He's the governor of Kentucky. It's Andy Beshear. How you doing, Governor?

[Andy Beshear]

I'm good. Thanks for having me on.

[Tim Miller]

One of my buddies was made an honorary Kentucky colonel. I hear that you do that down there. So I'm just. I don't know what the nomination process is like, et cetera, but I just wanted to mention that at the top, I'm interested.

[Andy Beshear]

Well, it is a tough process where we only make a couple hundred kernels a month. It's a process that helps spread Kentucky around the country and around the world. We try to recognize great service in all types of areas.

[Tim Miller]

Feels like you can sneak me in. Then we've got a. I'm coming to a gay wedding in Kentucky next year. Maybe I can do a double dip, become a colonel.

[Andy Beshear]

There you go.

[Tim Miller]

And head to a wedding. Or we'll talk about it.

[Andy Beshear]

We look forward to that.

[Tim Miller]

I want to talk a lot about kind of big picture democratic stuff. I did some tweeting about you that prompted this here podcast. But first, just a little bit on the news. Obviously, the government shutdown is continuing. The loss of SNAP funds has started for a couple of days now. It's pretty acute in red states. I know that you guys are trying to figure out ways to patch that. What exactly is the impact of this shutdown in Kentucky and particularly the SNAP issue?

[Andy Beshear]

It's significant. First, we've got between 20 and 30,000 federal employees, many of which are going without a paycheck. At a time when things cost too much, at a time when far too many people live paycheck to paycheck, not getting one at all is just brutal. And so we're thinking about each and every one of those families. Then there is the President's decision originally not to fund SNAP at all and now to only partially fund it. I want to be clear that this is entirely on the President. This is the first shutdown that SNAP hasn't been funded.

[Tim Miller]

And.

[Andy Beshear]

And a president who has never really cared about what he can and can't do under the law took the position that his lawyers told them that he could not fund snap. So I sued him along with a number of other governors and AGs, and we got a very clear ruling that said he could either fund it in full or in part. And now they have chosen to only fund it in part. So we've got 600,000 Kentuckians that rely on SNAP to help them to have enough to eat. It should be a no brainer to fully fund it. A president should never make a decision where people don't have enough to eat, especially in a country that grows enough food for everyone. My faith and values are driven by the miracle of the fishes and the loaves, which is so important it's in every book of the gospel and it should teach us to always make sure our neighbor has enough food.

[Tim Miller]

So.

[Andy Beshear]

So in Kentucky, we're stepping up and doing what we can. No state's gonna be able to make up for. In Kentucky, it'd be at least $50 million a month that the federal government is not covering. But as a start, we have provided $5 million in emergency funding to our food banks who are working to get it out all over the commonwealth. And then we're asking neighbors to help their neighbors to donate. And if the federal government won't do the right thing, the people of the United States should do the right thing.

[Tim Miller]

In addition, obviously, the most important thing are people that are potentially going hungry and losing access to food that they've been relying on. In addition to that, obviously, farmers contribute this food to snap. This is part of a broader trend of Trump administration policies that are hurting ag country between the trade wars, et cetera. Can you talk about what you're seeing on the ground in the more rural part of the states and how this administration's policy has been affecting the economy there?

[Andy Beshear]

Yeah, farmers are getting hammered. The Trump administration may be the worst presidential administration towards farmers that I've seen in my lifetime. You look at his trade war and how it has pushed China to purchase soybeans from Brazil and Argentina. Kentucky farmers grow soybeans and corn in that rotation, as do farmers throughout most of the Midwest. Losing this giant market on top of usaid, which was another big client of farmers, on top of the cuts to the farm to cafeteria program is hitting farmers every which way. And then the Trump administration decides they're going to do a huge multibillion dollar bailout of Argentina, which is now providing those soybeans to China, taking away that market from. From us. And now cattle farmers are getting hit because the Trump administration is talking about purchasing beef from Argentina. That same place we are bailing out that same place that's taking our soybean market. And let me tell you, our cattle farmers are fired up.

[Tim Miller]

Do you think it's breaking through in the world? In addition to the ag and the Farm stuff. There's also the healthcare issue and the cuts to healthcare that we're seeing from the administration. A listener sent me a screenshot from, like, the next door to, like, the neighborhood conversations, you know, in her community. And, you know, there are a lot of people that are like, blaming the Democrats for the increase in health care. I guess Obamacare must be Democrat, et cetera. I do think this is kind of a challenge for Democrats to message, you know, particularly in this information environment to people in rural communities and more red communities about, like, why this is happening, why they're losing access to health care, why their Obamacare is going up, why their snap is going away. Do you have any thoughts on how to communicate that?

[Andy Beshear]

Well, I think it is starting to break through and it will continue to break through. One of the challenges in rural America is the national Democratic Party for decades didn't invest. And the Republican National Party demonized Democrats throughout those decades with significant investments. And thus sometimes it became a part of people's identity, their party, or at least the party they didn't want to be a part of. And that doesn't change overnight. But what you do see are people knowing where these policies come from or most people knowing them. And that's in part, and I want to give him credit for this. Donald Trump owns his terrible policies more than any other president that I've ever seen. I mean, he held that big tariff board.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Andy Beshear]

And so anybody that's impacted by tariffs, they know that this is Donald Trump's policy. And the fact that it changes so much, that it's so chaotic has his fingerprints all over it. We've gone from across the board to reciprocal, to industry specific, to company specific, to product specific tariffs. We've now seen tariffs because he doesn't like a commercial during the World Series or the baseball playoffs. We've seen tariffs against Brazil over a prosecution and not on non economic grounds. It's making coffee prices go up, which impacts most Americans. I even know of a small business in Western Kentucky and they were booming, but they get their raw materials from China and then they assemble their product in the United States. We get the better part of that deal because those assembly jobs pay good wages to the people of Western Kentucky in this instance. But because of their products, the price going up because of tariffs, they've had to start laying people off. And when a small business starts laying people off, it's people they go to church with, it's people who their kids play on a soccer team with. And let me tell you, at least one of these owners is telling every single employee that he lays off exactly who caused it. And that's Donald Trump.

[Tim Miller]

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[Andy Beshear]

I'm not sure that it's a particular view on an issue as much as how much time that the people of America think we spend on any one issue. So I'm governor of a state that went to Trump +30 in the last election. I've got about a 64% approval rating. And I vetoed every anti LGBTQ bill that's come across my desk. I vetoed anti choice bills that have come across my desk. And I think the reason that I still win is while some people may disagree with me on those issues, they know I spend 80% of my time focused on things that impact 100% of the people of Kentucky. That's their jobs and whether they can afford the things they need. It's their next doctor's appointment for themselves, their parents or their kids. It's the roads and bridges they drive, the school they drop their kids off at.

[Tim Miller]

They.

[Andy Beshear]

And whether they feel safe in their community. So I may on one day veto a bill that somebody supports, but if the next day I'm opening a new factory that pays great wages, that's gonna change people's life in that community. I think this last presidential election has shown that that's where people are, that's what they care about the most, that they may have very strong convictions on different things, but if they're struggling to pay their child's next prescription, they're looking for a candidate that lives right there, that gets real results and that betters their lives. So I think that Democrats, we just need to spend more of our time on what are really nonpartisan issues that better people's lives and show we are the party that gets results. Now, the other thing I think we need to do is speak like normal human beings. I mean, to talk to people and not to talk at them and to never talk, talk down to them. And we shouldn't be judging voters that are out there because we need them to come back and vote for Democratic candidates. But, but we use sanitized terms like substance use disorder instead of addiction. You take something that's mean and nasty with the word addiction that, that we all feel, and we use something so sanitized, it just, it has no emotion on, on SNAP benefits. I mean, saying that more people are going to be food insecure isn't going to pressure the administration to do the right thing. But seniors going hungry and children going hungry. I mean, that again, has the real emotion, the reality that can hopefully push people to do the right thing.

[Tim Miller]

So I agree with all of that. That makes me nervous because when you're saying stuff that is exactly what I agree with, I start to think, well, there must be something else to the story here, because I don't think maybe.

[Andy Beshear]

We'Re just in the right lane.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, well, maybe that could be right. But I look at you, I feel like there's got to be something else there. Like, that's a nice story, but, you know Heidi hiking about on the pod last week, she lost in North Dakota. She talked like a normal person. I don't think anybody thought she was really focused on far left cultural issues. Brandon Presley lost in Mississippi a couple years ago. I don't think anybody thought he was, you know, some lib culture warrior. You know, we could go down the list of Democrats who have lost in these states who kind of took your advice. Is there something like, what else could it be? Is there another element to this that you think Democrats need to think about?

[Andy Beshear]

Well, I think a third piece is Democrats are really focused on the what. We get obsessed with our policies, with policy point three, subpoint two, bullet point four. We get way down in the weeds on the what, but we never talk about the why. And what people want to know a lot of times is what drives you, what makes you authentically want to do this job. And to be able to feel like they know enough about you to where they know why you make certain decisions. So when I vetoed the nastiest anti LGBTQ bill our state had ever seen in the middle of my reelection, I talked about my why. And for me, that's my faith now. It teaches me that all children are children of God. And I didn't want people picking on those kids. The legislature is going to show them hate. I wanted to show them love. If the legislature was going to show them judgment, I wanted to show them acceptance. And I talked about it in those terms because that's how I feel about it. The other side then ran $10 million of the most awful, terrible ads. I ran $9 million of look at all the great jobs that were creating ads. And I won by four and a half more points than I was elected by four years before. And so I do think that there is a path, but it's respecting voters enough to talk about not just the what, but the why. Now, admittedly, getting results is also really helpful. Since I've been governor, we've created the most jobs, we've had the most private sector investment, we've broken our exports record, we've broken our tourism record three straight years. Drug overdose deaths are down. And so what Democrats do when we win is we govern well. And you see that across Democratic governors. And that's why I think you see Democratic governors winning and winning reelection. And I think that's really important, that it can't just be about the election, it can't just be about the policies. But you actually have to make people's life better when you get the opportunity.

[Tim Miller]

On the why you went straight to faith. And it's kind of awkward when to bring out. But I do think that there is an impression that the Democratic Party has become at least somewhat hostile. Hostile to Christianity, fair or unfair. I was interviewing a Hispanic influencer guy who said basically he thinks part of the reason why Democrats lost ground with Hispanics is that if you go back in the past, whether it be Joe Biden or past Democratic candidates, there's a sense that they were Christian, they believed in God, and that that is lost a little bit. Do you sense that? Do you think about that at all? Do you intentionally talk about your faith, going to church all that?

[Andy Beshear]

Well, I talk about my faith because it's part of me. It's part of what drives me. And I think our candidates need to be authentic about what drives them. Josh Shapiro talks about his faith, which is different from mine, but it still teaches those same value sets and people respect faith, even if it's different from theirs. People could talk about how they were raised, doing right and not doing wrong as long as it's real to them. But for the longest time, Democrats were scared to talk about their why. Now I think we absolutely have to do it. I mean, Democrats can't sound like sanitized Robots, people demand authenticity. In a world of social media where you can see people in very different ways, things like this, they expect you to answer tougher questions and then they just want to feel like they know you a little bit. I tell you what, maybe one of the main reasons I won reelection in Kentucky by so much compared to before is people in Kentucky don't call me governor, they call me Andy. And part of that is because, especially during the pandemic, I had a daily update for a year and a half without missing a single day. But it created a relationship where if you're doing that every day, they're going to see exactly who you are. You're not going to be able to hide one piece of who you are. But even when I'd make a mistake, the fact that it was up front and real and authentic, people can forgive that as long as they see who you are and that you're trying.

[Tim Miller]

You got teenage kids, right?

[Andy Beshear]

I do pray for them.

[Tim Miller]

Are you making them go to church with you on Sunday?

[Andy Beshear]

We all go to church. Sometimes they'll go to youth group and that's been a neat part of them. That doesn't mean they like to get up to go to church.

[Tim Miller]

It's like good on them. I'm not going to close your ears, Mom. I used to, as soon as I got my driver's license, I pretend to go to church on Sunday, went and got donuts and read the newspaper like a door.

[Andy Beshear]

Well, there are lots of options.

[Tim Miller]

You might want to keep an eye on them. If they say they're going to the late service, you don't know what they're actually doing.

[Andy Beshear]

Thankfully, with YouTube and the rest, there are lots of options to see your church service.

[Tim Miller]

That's true. One more thing on this, on the social issues, do you think there's any issues that you feel like your party has gone too far left on or that you feel like they're out of step with you on them? Or do you really think it's just all about framing?

[Andy Beshear]

Well, no, I think we need room in the Democratic Party for people to have different views. I think we've got to get away from the litmus tests. You know, the idea of a healthy democracy means even within a party, everyone doesn't have to fully agree. And elections are math. You need more people voting for you than the other person. And therefore the more litmus tests you have, the more purity tests you have, the fewer people that you welcome into your party. Also, we claim to be a party of inclusivity and those Litmus tests are exclusive. Now we've got to support people when they stand up for their convictions. And people can have different convictions. But we shouldn't just be the party of this issue or that issue. We should be the party of the American dream. I mean, right now, over half of Americans believe the American dream is out of their reach. And that's really dangerous for this country. The idea that if you work hard and play by the rules, that you can get ahead. If suddenly people don't believe in that, then our country hurts and doesn't move forward with the momentum that we need. And so we've got to be the party of creating better jobs, of bringing down costs of affordable health care, of making sure that people can buy their first home when they're about the same age that their parents could. I think it's the right place to be. And I also think it could help bridge this divide of us versus them. Because, listen, somebody may have voted Republican their entire life, but if they can't afford that first home and your policies make it possible for it that they bring that American dream back in line, they're going to think a little bit differently in that next election.

[Terry Moran]

Every now and then I rinse it.

[Tim Miller]

Out.

[Musical Guest / Singer]

And I needed more.

[Andy Beshear]

My kids were so bad and the smell never leaves.

[Musical Guest / Singer]

I don't know what to do.

[Andy Beshear]

I'm always in the dark. The sweat and dead short smells like.

[Terry Moran]

A dark downy rinse fights stubborn odors in just one wash when impossible odors get stuck in.

[Tim Miller]

You talked about the results you delivered in Kentucky. There is one of the other kind of debates that's going out there when Democrats look at how things went wrong for them and how they've allowed themselves to lose power. Is a critique being posed by Ezra Klein and some others around this question of abundance that the Democrats have not actually delivered the government services that they promised because of rules and regulations. I also listened to an interview you were doing a couple months ago where you're talking about how hard it was to get that rural broadband down in Kentucky.

[Andy Beshear]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

What do you make of that? Of that conversation around abundance and regulation and red tape? It's. To some people, I think in the Democratic Party, it codes a little bit Republican. Y. It's like. It sounds a lot like what Ronald Reagan is talking about. So it makes them uncomfortable. What do you make of it?

[Andy Beshear]

I'm less worried about any coding than I am about getting real results for the American people. If Democrats believe that Internet access is critical for the future and that we ought to have policies that allow everyone to be able to afford it, then we actually have to follow through and get the results. And if we create so many hoops that you have to jump through and so much pre planning that three years later there's not one inch of fiber in the ground, we've got to recognize we're doing something wrong.

[Tim Miller]

And that's crazy, though. That is a catastrophe. Like, three years later. It's one thing to be like, oh, this was a mistake and we didn't do it. People should have been. There should have been hair on fire over this.

[Andy Beshear]

And let me just say I believe that the Democratic Party can be pro worker and pro business. And here's why. I describe myself as being pro business. I recruit the next big business to come to Kentucky. I'm going to tell them that we're going to follow every rule, but we're going to get them up and running six months faster than they would in any other state. Why is that important to me? Because the faster they're up and running, the faster they hire Kentucky families, the faster someone has a better wage, the faster someone has that health insurance that's provided by that company. So as Democrats, we're supposed to believe in that end result that makes people's lives better. So we ought to be reflective about what we're doing from the passage of a bill or the decision to pursue a policy and what it takes to get there. So as we look forward to hopefully flipping the house, flipping the presidency in 2028, rebuilding the federal government, we ought to do it in a way that's really effective. Because if we can deliver for the American people at a real level without any of the cruelty of the current administration, without any of the chaos, then I think we could have really good governance, we could heal the country, and we could have a lot of Democrats doing really good things for a long time.

[Tim Miller]

So once again, I'm just going to challenge you because I agree with all that. You're speaking to me a little too much. It kind of reminds me of when I went to work for Jon Huntsman in 2012, and I was like, I love this guy. He's making sense. And then we finished in last place running for president. So, you know, sometimes my instincts are a little out of touch with what the electorate is. A lot of other Democrats will listen to that and say, I think that no, the real answer is there needs to be just more of a populist left focus, like centering of the workers, where, sure, bringing business into Kentucky is all fine and good but you need to understand who the real foes are here. It's the billionaire class, it's the elites. And the Democrats need to, you know, be once again the vanguard of the working man. It would be kind of the Bernie Sanders argument that he made the New York Times this week. What would you say to that?

[Andy Beshear]

I think the approach can and should be a lot simpler than that, that a lot of that speak where we're talking about center left or center right. It falls into that idea of the coalition that I think hurt Democrats the last time. I think Democrats in some of the campaigns were saying, well, we have to have 76% of this group and 86% of that group and 65% of this group. And they were sending different messages to all of them. And to give the Trump campaign credit, they said, let's do 3% better with everyone. And what did it show us? That, yes, there are important issues to important groups, but everyone wants to be able to afford not only the groceries for their family, but to be able to take them on vacation from time to time. And so I think we've just got to be the party that is saying, we see you, we hear you, we know that you are struggling. We know the American dream feels out of reach, and we are going to work harder every single day to make it a reality again, to make your life a little bit better and a little bit easier. I think that's the lane for us. I think that's the lane that Trump won in. And I think that his policies now making it so much more difficult, are eventually going to lead to a feeling of betrayal. But again, that lane that he won on and that we used to win on is right there.

[Tim Miller]

I think Kamala would tell you she did that. Where do you think things went wrong?

[Andy Beshear]

I believe that President Trump was able to depict the vice president as distracted, as focused on a bunch of issues that didn't necessarily impact people's daily lives. And a lot of us, we see all the rallies, we read a bunch of it. But those weren't what his ads were in those swing states. Those weren't what his digital messages were. What were they? Things cost too much. I'm going to work to bring them down. I'm going to work harder on it.

[Tim Miller]

But also, I mean, a ton of negative ads about how she supported health care for transgender immigrant prisoners.

[Andy Beshear]

So in that last ad, I think it ended up being more about distraction than anti trans. I think if a voter was anti trans, they were already voting for Donald Trump. But I think what he did in that ad was to say, I'm not.

[Tim Miller]

Sure that's right, though. I think there are a lot of black voters that aren't really. Just for one example, you look at the interview she did on Charlamagne, the God show. Charlemagne talked about this about a lot of his listeners who had been Democrats, but also have various conservative values or whatever, various views that made them not be supportive of a trans girl playing in girls sports. And so I think that there are maybe traditional Democrats that, that aren't anti trans, like bigoted. But we're on the Republican side of that debate.

[Andy Beshear]

But I think it depends on how much they think you're going to focus on what? All of us have slightly different views. We're raised in different ways. We have different life experiences. So you're almost never going to have a candidate that has 100% of the same views that you do. And if you think that, you're probably not looking closely enough. But I think what voters are saying right now are what are the things that you're going to spend 80% of your time on? And that's why I think the formula is 80% of our time on things that matter to 100% of the American people. That that 20% people can be okay with differences in if their next paycheck's going to be a little bit better, if they believe you're trying to bring down the price of pharmaceuticals. If you built that new road, save some 20 minutes each way and they've got 40 more minutes with their family.

[Tim Miller]

I'm with you on all that. I'm just trying to figure out what it looks like. I'm sorry to belabor the point because I think that if you asked Joe Biden's team and Kamala Harris's team, they would say they tried to take your advice. I don't think that they were really focused on trans sports or climate or identity issues. Particularly the Vice President went out of her way, I think, to not talk about identity issues in my view. So it feels like there's something else there. I wonder if you had a time machine and were able to go back to 20 and sit down with Joe Biden in the Oval Office and say, I'm from the future. Doc Brown gave me this DeLorean and I'm telling you that we're going to lose next time based on the current plans, what would you have told them to get on a different trajectory? Was there anything that they could have done to get us on a different trajectory?

[Andy Beshear]

I would have done a Couple of things. First, I would have told him fewer regulations, fewer rules. Get the dollars for Internet for all and for other programs out there, and then carefully watch and audit all of us and make sure that we follow the rules, but actually have all of that work happening. Now. They were under the belief that once a law passed, that the next administration wouldn't be able to pull it back. And I'd seen that in Kentucky, I was attorney general under a Republican governor that at a time of a budget surplus, refused to send all the dollars appropriated to our universities, and I had to sue to make it happen. And so I've seen this happen before. I would say, if you want eight years to be able to put these programs in, they've got to really be humming in the first four. And then I'd say you also got to get out and show people what you're doing. People need to see and feel and touch the progress that's out there. When I was going into reelection in 2023, 2021 had been our best year for economic development ever by far. 2022 had been our second best year by far. And I was running against an opponent that had spent one year in the private sector, and ironically, he'd worked for my law firm. Little awkward, but when we. When we originally polled, you know, who's better for the economy because of the Democrat Republican thing, I was only winning by about four or five points. And I just couldn't believe it with all this work. But what we saw in focus groups, which can be effective just to get your mind where people's minds are, if you're. If you're really listening, was that people just need to be reminded they're not living in. In the everyday that you are. And so we said, what about the $5.8 billion battery plants? And they said, oh, yeah, I heard about all those jobs. If you talk to them about new jobs in their community, which we did, we put them on our mailer, specifically in their county that they drove by every single day. If you send out a postcard to everyone who lives within 10 miles of a new, important road project, I would say get out there and just make sure that people know that reason that your life is a little bit better is because of this administration. And I'll tell you, I was at a lot of groundbreakings for them. And you know who was standing there with me? The Republican congressman that voted against it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. I want to get back to the Republicans. But just the last thing on this, it's Awkward. But I just think was the problem that Joe Biden wasn't capable of going out there, and just because it was age, didn't have the vigor or the communication skills anymore to do it, and that the Democrats should have just dealt with that reality earlier.

[Andy Beshear]

So I think certainly the pandemic played a role in the first part. I think a focus on foreign policy, when people were crying out domestically, impacted it, too, and they admitted that on the health side, as a governor, I see the president twice a year, and so it's hard for me to know exactly.

[Tim Miller]

That feels bad. I mean, again, I don't think that there are any Republicans out there, governors out there who are saying, I don't ever hear from Donald Trump is that he's pretty visible.

[Andy Beshear]

I will say he is visible, but the way he's visible is very different.

[Tim Miller]

Sure.

[Andy Beshear]

Donald Trump gets out there and goes to sports, and just being seen, we can see is helpful. What we don't see him doing is traveling to states on the economy or on health care on major policy pieces, and I think that's gonna come back and hit him later on.

[Tim Miller]

You don't think that the age thing was the problem?

[Andy Beshear]

Oh, I think age played a role. There's no question that age played a role. There's even nuanced questions that you can ask about energy to run in the toughest election in the world.

[Tim Miller]

Back to Trump and him getting out there. I forget. I guess it was on Jon Stewart's listening to one of the other interviews where you were saying that obviously you grade Trump's performance pretty low, but you should compliment administrations when they do things. Well, I think you acknowledged FEMA at that time, this was a couple months ago, was doing well at that time. Here we are like 10 months in. Like, what would you say are the things that the administration has done that's the most damaging? Maybe it's what we've already discussed. And are there anything that you think that they've done that you think you approve of?

[Andy Beshear]

Well, the big ugly bill is going to be the most devastating of their policies, and that's saying something, because tariffs are really awful and are slowing the economy and are causing job losses and may well cause a recession, will at least prevent what was going to be really significant growth. But the big ugly bill, I mean, it's going to take $1 trillion out of primarily rural health care. It's going to close rural hospitals. Kentucky may lose 20,000 health care workers. Remember, that's one of the fastest growing parts of rural economies. The largest payroll in a lot of these communities going to close, and that means the restaurant, the coffee shop and the bank all may close, too. You're going to see property values decrease, which is going to impact schools. And then worker productivity is going to go way down because you got to take a full day off just to see a doctor. Then you got to take your kids and then you got to take your. Your parents. And so this is going to hit rural America like a, like a sledgehammer. On the positive side, the FEMA response, certainly to February flooding in Kentucky was some of the best I'd seen. I also think we've got to give them some credit for, for getting hostages back recently. I wish that could have been done faster. But listen, a lot of people got to come home to their families.

[Tim Miller]

I want to talk about the governor's races out there really quick. You're the head of the Governor's association, and then we'll do some fun stuff and I'll let you get out of here. How do we get more Andy Beshears? How do the Democrats get more Andy Beshears out there? I'm looking at the races in 2026 in red states. You got Kansas and Iowa jumped out at me. Are you seeing other candidates that are doing things you like in particular?

[Andy Beshear]

I am, and I'm the head of the Democratic Governor's association in 2026. And our goal is to change the map, is to win in places that people don't expect. And part of that is having really good candidates. You look at Iowa and Rob sand has gotten elected statewide as auditor a bunch of times. I've been with him, I've heard him, what a great candidate. And I think he's going to have a really good opportunity.

[Tim Miller]

We did a great interview with him over on the YouTube. I'll put it in the show notes for people who want to learn more about him. He was good.

[Andy Beshear]

And so I think that's an example. Now another example is having a good candidate and then the other side puts up an extremist. You saw that when John Bel Edwards and he became governor of Louisiana. Just as hard to run in in Kentucky before I won. Now I remember the call when he was running when he described how he was going to win and he was right that his opponent was going to be too extreme and that he was going to focus on people's everyday lives. And so that's what we'll be looking for.

[Tim Miller]

Now, John Bel Edwards is pro life, though he was. He took some cultural views to the back to that Conversation from earlier. It's worth noting, but look at where.

[Andy Beshear]

He was on climate change. I mean, for instance. And so you think we can put all these in one bucket or another?

[Tim Miller]

I'd love to have John Bel Edwards right now. Man, we got the worst governor in America down here. Jeff Landry, he's fucking up the football coach search. In addition to everybody's sales taxes are going up, there are no jobs. He's doing nothing right.

[Andy Beshear]

Well, John Bell is a good friend of mine, great governor, good example of how you can govern in states where the governor may be one party and the legislature another. So I still call John. And by the way, when Kentucky got hit really hard by the worst tornado disaster in our life and the worst flooding disaster, John Bell and y' all in Louisiana gave us, gave us your travel trailers that you had kept in good condition after the, the tornadoes. We had them up in a month. After the flooding, we had them up in six days. And we owe a big thank you there.

[Tim Miller]

What about the model of having one of my people run? We got never Trumper. Jeff Duncan is in a primary in Georgia. Obviously there are other candidates. Keisha, Lance, Bob's the May of a former mayor of Atlanta, others. So I know you probably can't pick a horse in a primary, but just in general, what do you think about the Jeff Duncan model in some of these states?

[Andy Beshear]

I can't pick a horse in a primary. We got a lot of great candidates in Georgia. And I was all for him getting in, which some may disagree with. But listen, he was at the time a Republican willing to speak out against Trump, willing to give up his office because of it. And, you know, there's a lot to respect there.

[Tim Miller]

All right, let's do some fun questions at the end. They might not all be fun for you. They're fun for me, though. One area I like, Andy, be sure. One area where maybe our MO Is a little different is I got a lot of people I hate. I do a lot of two minute hate on here, which is maybe against Christian values. I'm working on that. But is there anybody, if you just look at the news right now, is there anybody out there that really is boiling your blood that you really detest?

[Andy Beshear]

I won't use the word hate, but you know, J.D. j.D. Vance made his money initially off of, off of criticizing my people in Kentucky. Yeah, Hillbilly Elegy blames our challenges on us, claims we are lazy and that is not who we are. I think he is incredibly condescending and I believe that he is fraying our alliances with Europe that are critical to world stability, supporting far right groups and talking down to world leaders that we should want strong relationships with.

[Tim Miller]

Great pick. That was my pick too. I was hoping you'd pick JD Vance. Stephen Miller is a close second, but JD Is. There's a special category for him because of the smarminess to that point. A lot of Democrats really want a lot more fight right now. You know, a lot of Democrats obviously, like Tim Wallace, thought he did a good job as governor. We're happy he was picked as VP in his debate performance with JD Though, like, the debate was kind of collegial in a way that rubbed some people the wrong way. I was wondering what you made of that. How do you think Tim Walls did in that debate and what do you think the Democrats job is when it comes to actually confronting the other side?

[Andy Beshear]

Tim is a good friend and he was upfront with the Vice President that debating was not his. His strong suit, that it made him uncomfortable. You know, I got a legal background. I get excited about debates and I take it right to my opponent. My opponent in my reelection would not on the record say whether he was for exceptions for rape and incest in our total abortion ban in Kentucky. And I will tell you, during those debates, I looked at him and I asked him in one debate six times to go on the record for it. And you could see how extreme that he was. And also unwilling to just look at the camera and answer a question.

[Tim Miller]

Why weren't you on the short list for vp, do you think?

[Andy Beshear]

I don't know how far I got. I don't know if I was in the elite eight or the final Four.

[Tim Miller]

You haven't asked her? You haven't called her and asked her. She's telling all the old stories now in her book tour.

[Andy Beshear]

Listen, I don't think that I was the right fit for her, and I don't think that she thought I was the right fit for her. And I'm okay with that. So my thing was, if I was in that final game, I had two questions before I was willing to do it. Number one, what's the job? You know, being a governor is great. You got a really good job every day where you can get real results. And things are going so well in Kentucky. And the second one would have been how in this role can I deliver for Kentucky? Because I made the promise to serve out my entire four years of my second term. I never got to ask those questions, but that's what I still had on my mind. And on my heart.

[Tim Miller]

All right. The most important part of Kentucky is the bourbon. I'm a bourbon man myself. I'd like a bourbon ranking from you, a top three. Do you have a top three? I don't want you to get in trouble with any of those bourbon makers, but, you know, there's hard choices in politics.

[Andy Beshear]

Asking me my favorite kids, and when I look at Will and Lila, I tell them my favorite child is Winnie the dog, because she doesn't talk back. I like a lot of them. I think Michter's is really good. I love that the owner moved to Kentucky and is growing that business. I like Eagle Rare from Sazerac. That's also a really good one. I like a lot of the products that come out of Brown Foreman. I like some of the Whitford reserves. The double oak, I think, is really good. The triple Oak may be a little too sweet for me, but I really like the double.

[Tim Miller]

That's pretty good. I'm a Blanton's man, but those are all good choices. Mictters is good.

[Andy Beshear]

Blanton's is good.

[Tim Miller]

The only good thing that came out of the LSU season this year is I want to bet with a listener on the Clemson game over Blanton. And he sent me a bottle of Blanton. So shout out to him, people. You can be a little, you know. Look at you even mentioning your church going. Have you ever gotten any trouble? Had one too many bourbons? Gotten any loose?

[Andy Beshear]

Well, I think when we're growing up, we all cut a little loose every now and then. But we all try to learn from that. And being imperfect, human beings get better each and every day.

[Tim Miller]

All right, that's good enough. Governor Beshear, I appreciate it. Next time we get together, how about over a bourbon? Maybe in Kentucky. When you make me a Kentucky colonel, is it like a British thing where I kneel down and you put a sword on my shoulder? Or how does that work?

[Andy Beshear]

We could do that if necessary.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, maybe we'll do that over at Bourbon next time I'm in town.

[Andy Beshear]

Sounds good.

[Tim Miller]

Holler at me if you get down to Louisiana. All right?

[Andy Beshear]

All right. Thank you for having me.

[Tim Miller]

All right. I appreciate it. That's Governor Andy Beshear. Up next, Terry Moran, FOREIGN we are back. Delighted to welcome back to the show a former foreign correspondent and chief White House correspondent and an anchor for ABC News. He's now on substack at Real Patriotism with Terry Moran. It's Terry Moran. What's up, man? Welcome back to the show.

[Terry Moran]

Thank you thanks for having me. It was, it was great the first time we talked because after that, the substack took off. I got some press. So let's do it again.

[Tim Miller]

I love that. And folks, should go check out your substack. You're doing great work. I was just watching your video from Chicago this morning, which we'll talk about in a second. But first, I just wanted to get your take on former Vice President Dick Cheney, who died this morning. You were going back through your archive. I guess you did a Nightline interview with him maybe back in 2005 or so, actually in Iraq. Cheney made a surprise trip there and you interviewed him. It seems like from the interview, kind of in a, in a undisclosed location type situation, because you're asking about this and it's like it's not really a sign that things are going well, that the nature in which, that your arrival in Iraq happened. But what'd you remember about that and any other thoughts about the former vice president?

[Terry Moran]

I do remember that interview and a few trips that I took with Cheney. Let's set aside the substantive issues for a moment. He was an old school politician. I felt like, you know, he'd been in Washington since the 1960s, early 70s. And so he was kind of, in my experience as a political reporter, the last of a breed, right? You, you get on a plane. He flew around in, you know, the Air Force Two, which was basically the same plane. And at the end of every day, work day, not every, but he would frequently invite people, invite the reporters up to his cabin to the kind of cabin and offer everybody a whiskey and sit down and take all comers. It was off the record. It's not like he disclosed state secrets. But you got a sense of the old insider in the good way, insider political process, the way he talked about Democrats, affectionately, some of them, less others. And you got a sense that he trusted the press in a way that I think he learned not to and maybe was very unhealthy. Right. We're in the stage right now where it was all too cozy and the insiders, including me, let us all down. I was White House Correspondent on September 11, 2001, and in the invasion of Iraq. But there was also something, there was grease in the gears and guys like that kind of made the system go. Now he made it go in the wrong direction. First thing that I thought of when he died, when I heard he died, was to me, the most important question when I think of a politician is, you know, are they true patriots? They love the country and he Loved the country. Now, I don't mean, you know, chest thumping. I mean, he was a patriot. He had terrible judgment, obviously, and a kind of strange paranoia that this great country was always at risk of being, you know, attacked and destroyed, and it led the country down bad directions. But he loved the country, as I think he demonstrated in the last years of his life.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I went and just kind of re looking through the transcript of the interview, and, man, you did give him the business. Deserved. It was quite a time capsule from late 2005 with the Valerie Plame issues, Guantanamo and torture. The time, I don't know. With the benefit of. How long do we have now? 20 years. Almost 20 years. On just on the merits of the arguments of the back and forth between the two of you. They really dug themselves a bad hole and made a lot of bad judgment on that one.

[Terry Moran]

They did. Thank you. I looked at that interview, actually, coincidentally, I just thought, you know, what was that like? And there's still the ABC still has the transcript of it up online. So I looked at it and I thought, okay, yeah, I mean, I held him to account. The news that the federal government was spying on Americans without a warrant from any court had just broken a week or so earlier. And he kept saying, well, the Justice Department okayed it and, you know, the White House counsel.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Terry Moran]

And I was saying, that's not the way it works. Right. The president doesn't get to decide what's legal. We got to have the courts involved. And, you know, it's the same kind of way to go from old to young. When I think about Zoran Mandami, I think this is a guy a. You got to love his aspect. Right. We're in a dreary, dull, angry time, and he's a very upbeat guy. And second, in a weird way, like Dick Cheney, he loves this country.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. There's a little video I saw this morning where he was informed live when he went to vote that Dick Cheney had died. I want to know his internal monologue, because he gave a concerned kind of response like, oh, really? And thought about it for a second. You could tell he was thinking that he might talk. And then he just kind of turned down and went and signed the card with the lady volunteering to vote this morning. And so, I don't know, maybe better judgment prevailed.

[Terry Moran]

The bottom line, people are. Cheney's legacy is complicated. Well, the headline is not. It was a catastrophe the way he led George W. Bush into that war. And I remember thinking at the time that Bush was completely unprepared for that, for September 11th and its aftermath. And he kind of looked around. He'd never been around the world, really at all. When Bush was elected, he made his first trip to Mexico. We were all kind of saying, well, he's never been out of the country. And they. They took umbrage at that. They produced a paper which I believe is in his official papers, places the president has been outside the United States before he was president, and it was about a dozen countries, number one, Bermuda. So he was unprepared. And he looked around, he said, who knows anything about this world? And there was Dick Cheney, and he was de facto president for about two years.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Not complicated. Wrong in Iraq. Right on Trump. There you go. Our thoughts are, though, with Liz and the rest of his family, because it is tough. She loved her dad and listened to her talk about her dad, was really moving. I want to hear from you about your time in Chicago. The video I mentioned earlier, which we'll link to here if people want to go watch the whole thing was settled inside America's immigration crackdown. It is tough for us who are watching. It's hard to get your bearings on how much of the city is this happening in. What is the scope of all this? You see some horrible videos, and then you also see people running along Lake Michigan. There's nothing different. That's the nature of these sorts of things. From your being on the ground, being in many neighborhoods, what's your sense for the scope of the immigration crackdown in Chicago?

[Terry Moran]

Well, it is sweeping, and everyone feels like they can be. That their neighborhood can be targeted. Right There is that randomness. And if you are. I mean, I was standing out one of the iconic locations in Chicago, right on the Chicago river, the Chicago Tribune building, that magnificent Gothic building there rising away. We just planted there during morning rush hours, people were coming to work. And I asked people, so what do you think of this? And a couple of people stopped by, and I didn't choose them. They were of one was of Hispanic descent. They're going to some office building. She's, I'm afraid everywhere, I'm afraid, because it has that quality. It's supposed to have that quality. But the reason that I went there is something I saw in all those videos. The normies. These aren't the usual suspects who are getting in the way of ice, who are taking out their phones and demanding identification or allowing the person who's being arrested to cry out their names before they're disappeared. The priests who brought Holy Communion to that detention center and were turned away by ice. I talked to them as well. When you get people who don't do this on a regular basis, you always need instigators in every protest movement, right, left, center, whatever. But when you get the normies to come out of their house and say, this is wrong, I need to do something about it. Up in Rogers park, we spend an afternoon with a group that has hundreds of moms who stand outside the schools during dismissal, and they blow those whistles if ICE is around. Chicago felt decisive to me. It is not decided, but it is the decisive place. I think Trump is bringing the full force of his immigration crackdown and his authoritarian ambitions. That's the underlying theme. And Chicago's 2.7 million. I was born there. I grew up right outside. Those people are pretty independent, pretty tough, and they're not going to be pushed around.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I was interested. You mentioned the priests, kind of in the context of Pope Leo being from Chicago. Obviously, there's maybe a little bit of extra gravity to that. And there are multiple priests you talk to in church. I'm just wondering, obviously. And a lot of the Hispanics are Catholic, you know, and there are churches that have Spanish language mass there and things of that nature. So I was wondering, kind of, any reflections in your conversations with the priests in Chicago.

[Terry Moran]

You know, the two priests, two of the several that brought the Holy Communion to that detention center, one had just been ordained in June. The other had been a priest 58 years. And they walked together, right, with the monstrance, holding the host and all that stuff. The older one said something because I was quite moved by it, how respectful they were. They had gotten in touch with ICE in advance, days in advance. Only a few priests were going to go in. They were going to lead some crowd in. And he said, you know, it's interesting, these old things, when you put them in a new context, gain a new and fresh power. And, you know, Trump is the head of the most powerful government in the world. No protest is ever going to defeat him, really, in physical ways, but in that kind of power that witness, that deep, deep power, a call to patriotism, a call to common decency. And I think that's why you see his numbers sliding. People don't want this. They understand the border was out of control. They want a solution. Americans are not ideologues by their nature. We don't give up our consciences to some great leader who tells us everything is great. We're pragmatists. We like what works. And I think that in Chicago, you Felt normal people saying this is too much for me and getting out of their houses and doing what they can.

[Tim Miller]

And it's inspiring to see the people that are volunteering and trying to help. And it's just. Your heart breaks the idea that these kids have to be worried when they're coming out of school that maybe somebody might be nabbing their family. And so for those people who are coming out, like, that's one type of person who's making a change, who's changed their day to day life since these raids started. The other's kind of the inverse folks that are staying in. Right. You were at the Little Village neighborhood, and that video was pretty shocking where you're talking about just how the street is empty. This is a Hispanic neighborhood. You have to get buzzed in to get into the barbershop. Talk about that a little bit.

[Terry Moran]

That was incredible. So Little Village was, when I was growing up, the great Polish neighborhood of Chicago is now the great Mexican American neighborhood of Chicago. And for a mile and a half or so, 26th street is just chock a block with stores and restaurants and all kinds of places of business. It's the main street of Latino Chicago. It really is. And it was absolutely deserted. It was like a ghost town. And I was thinking, well, how are we going to tell the story here? Because several days earlier and the day after we left, ice was all over the place. And so people are, you know, taking cover, basically. It makes as much money as Michigan Avenue does, which is the great shopping street. Right? The. The Madison Avenue of Chicago.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Terry Moran]

And so is this engine of commerce. And I was told it's 60% down. It's having real world impact. And it's not that everybody there is, you know, illegal. It's that they could be mistaken for such. And they don't want to get. They don't want to be seen at all within, you know, 100 yards of a federal officer, even if they're born and raised in the United States. I was in. I was in this barbershop. I said, oh, talk to somebody in the barbershop. And they looked at me very suspicious. Finally they buzzed me in because I looked like this. They had no idea. I've always been mistaken for a narc.

[Tim Miller]

You do give off narc vibes. You do give off narc vibes. If you were in a. If you were at a jam band show, I don't think I'd be seeing if you wanted any drugs.

[Terry Moran]

It's true. It was actually a liability as a reporter too. People that he's too straight arrow. They wouldn't leak. But in there was a guy getting his haircut, and he grew up there. He still lives there. He went into the army, came out, got an mba and he owns a business. He did not want to go on camera, but he told me what people were feeling and how scared people were and that the whole life of that part of Chicago is different now. And that's. I once again, say immigration isn't the entire point. It's what permits him to use force in a way that a isn't necessary. You don't need the military in these cities. And the manner in which they're rounding people up, tearing mothers from their children, tackling working men in the streets isn't just, let's get people who are here unlawfully out. They're arresting people at the courthouses. Right. We're trying to get their papers correct. It's to send a message that we have the force and anyone who gets in the way can be subject to it. I'm convinced of that, which is why Chicago feels decisive to me.

[Tim Miller]

I guess the potential argument for it not being decisive is listening to what the president said on 60 Minutes about these ICE raids. He was asked by Norah O' Donnell about this kind of feeling that people have that you're describing, that some of these raids have gone too far. And he says the opposite. No, I think they're planning on escalating this, moving into other cities and becoming more aggressive, not less, when it comes to immigration enforcement. So wondering what your thoughts were on that.

[Terry Moran]

I think we all see that coming. We all see the increasing expansion of his authority through force, not consent, as much as he can get away with. And even if the Supreme Court finds a pair or, excuse me, that's not quite right, but even if the Supreme.

[Tim Miller]

Court finds a backbone, we can do that. That's fine. That's okay. On the Bulwark podcast, I don't know what the rules are on Terry Moran substack.

[Terry Moran]

If they find a backbone, even there is the high likelihood that he will find a way to say just as. As President Jackson or some such did, I'm not going to abide by that. And then it really does present the problem. You know, you're a nice suburban or Chicago woman with your whistle outside the school, and he's the federal government with the Army.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Terry Moran]

You're not going to be able to stop that. And that will be the question before each and every one of us. We will know, look, he can put a fig leaf over it. Now, I actually thought what the New York Times did, the 12 step program for deciding whether or not a person is an authoritarian and he checks all the boxes. It won't be persuasive to people until they actually see basically, martial law.

[Tim Miller]

You talked to in Chicago, who did change, who said that, like, man, this is worse than I expected. Or, you know, that's another thing that's hard for me to kind of grab grasp is people that are already liberal or upset about it, people already are conservative saying, wow, it's not as bad as it looks kind of thing.

[Terry Moran]

Yeah, I mean, look, there are people who say, I talked to a couple, actually, this is my favorite interview. In some ways. We just stopped a couple on the street outside that Tribune building. What do you think? And then we aren't. You don't want to talk to us because we're a mixed marriage. We disagree on it. I was like, oh, oh, then I definitely want to talk to you. And she was very against it. And he was for it, although her. I was kind of playing therapist. I said, well, look, he sounds reasonable. And then I said, well, look, she's got this best point, which is that this can't be really who we are the way it's going about. Is this what you hoped for? And he was like, yeah, that does make me feel bad. But we got to get on top of the problem. Once again. I'm kind of pragmatic. He sees it still as part of the solution, but he understands. He's not there yet. He's not there yet.

[Tim Miller]

Back to the 60 minutes again, as mentioned, this is a big change for you. Back then. It was your job. You were interviewing the vice president 20 years ago. The 60 Minutes interview came, I think, with a cloud around it. The idea that they had submitted his extortion. When it comes to paying him off over the ridiculous, frivolous lawsuit, then they get. Get rewarded, you would say, I guess, with an interview with the President. What'd you make of the interview?

[Terry Moran]

I was kind of disappointed. I'll tell you, too, you can't win for losing with Trump. Look, I interviewed him in April. He's a tough interview. Everybody knows that. He's going to spew whatever comes into his mind to try to get you off your topic. And he's.

[Tim Miller]

He got pissed at you, though.

[Terry Moran]

He did get very angry at me. Yes, indeed. Which I kind of almost didn't notice in the moment. I was having a good time, really genuinely. I thought it was a good interview. I was respectful, which was very important to Me, I didn't want to get in a fight with him because he wins those, but I thought it was important for him to answer some questions.

[Tim Miller]

No, he didn't win those. I'm sorry to interrupt, but just like the crux of your interview, the main point of the interview people don't remember was this question about Kilmar, Grego Garcia and at the time and how he had the tattoos on his fingers, but those were fake and you just wouldn't let it go. You're like, no, this is fake. What you're saying is fake. Like it's one thing to have a different of opinion or for you to spin your view about how things are happening, but like you are saying something that is fake. And I'm not going to just sit here and move on. And that happened several times in the 60 Minutes interview where they just moved on. Right. You know, whether it was on the 2020 election or variety of things where Trump just said things that were just blatantly false and they just moved on.

[Terry Moran]

Yeah. And I think that's the thing you must do, right? You can't relitigate the 2020 election or whatever. Inflation is actually up, not down or whatever. But you have to pick a spot and communicate to the audience. And just for the principle of it, you have to stand up for what actually factually is true. And he hates that. He wants to invent a reality where he is king of the world. And I do think it is a hard thing to do because he gets angry at it. You don't want to fight with him, which I think is the big mistake. Kind of get in there and yell at him with respect, you have to say no, actually, the moon is not made of cheese, the grass is green, the sky is blue. And just because you say it otherwise doesn't make it so. And you don't have to be a jerk about it, but you have to stand up for it. Otherwise what's the point? And Norah O', Donnell, I know Nora 20 plus years now. I know her as one of the, as a great journalist. Somebody's very tough. We've all seen her. She's moderated debates. She can be very persistent and very tough. She wasn't.

[Tim Miller]

You know, again, you can do theater criticism and all of that and, and there's value and less value to it, I guess. But for me, the thing that stands out is she didn't challenge him on the extortion and the suppression of media. And to me it's like if you are at 60 minutes and you're going to take that interview after you had settled with him over an absurdly bogus lawsuit, like something that's not even close to the line. To not be challenge him on that, like to not bring it up or to not deal with it is crazy to me. He brought it up randomly and then she just kind of let it go. Like where after he sort of belittled CBS and said that they had been fake news.

[Terry Moran]

I love the way you think because that's a good producer, that's a good American, but it's also a good producer because that's what people want to know about. Are you an honest broker here or are you bending the knee? And also, was that a legitimate thing for him to do? I guarantee I know how these things go. I know how that went. You know, I've interviewed, you know, a couple presidents and the rest of it, the, the bigwigs are always in the room. They're always in the room. The best thing to do is kind of get out of the office with a couple of your pals and prepare the interview.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Terry Moran]

But then at some point they say, we're gonna have a big meeting about the interview. And there's the vice president, there's people from Disney, there's all this stuff, and they're in the interview, they're weighing in. Okay. That's the way it was, and I guarantee that's the way it is. Barry Weiss undoubtedly was involved in the prep here, but what you just said is it's a better interview and it's harder to do and it's harder for him to answer if you, if you put that on the table. Hey, you went after 60 Minutes. Yeah. You know, parent company paid you 16, $15 million, whatever. But really you won. How is it, how were you harmed at all by what happened? Anything like that, that would have been a live wire of a moment. That would have been absolutely forbidden by the powers that be at cbs.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. You mentioned the Disney thing. I have to ask you out of curiosity, you have any takes on the Disney. I can't watch ABC right now on YouTube TV. There's like a corporate feud going on. Maybe you just check out of that because you triggered. You don't want to hear any news, but do you have any thoughts on what's happening? It's crazy.

[Terry Moran]

The only thoughts I have is my, my in laws were here for Halloween, so they see the kids go out, you know, and all the rest of it. And my father in Law spent 20 years teaching law at the University of Oklahoma so he want to see Oklahoma, Tennessee, which was on abc. He couldn't believe it. He's like, what's going on? I said, there's a big fight. That's way above anything I ever understood. I will say this, though. After having been fired, ultimately, Disney apparently made that. That decision. My wife and I made our own decision. We are not going to stop loving Disney World or Disney movies. I mean, it's great. And I made sure in the severance that I'm a Disney lifer, which means we get the discounts in the parks and such.

[Tim Miller]

Still, that's a good bargain. Well, congrats on that. That's good. It's important to be the better man. You can't let the kids suffer over it. You can't blame Walt. All right, anything else? Any other deep thoughts? It's been a couple months. I talked to you. It was right after this all happened. Do you have any. Any updated perspective on it as after a couple of months away from the Borg?

[Terry Moran]

I do. Look, it's harder than I thought. I mean, it's like really hard. But it's also, without question, without. I mean, it's obvious it's tomorrow. And as I felt like I like Dorothy, I'm walking out of black and white into color, out of yesterday, into tomorrow. And I think as somebody who's in his mid-60s, I think that's a gift and a blessing now. Yeah, I have to do it right? But what a great thing to still be connected into the next chapter of the media in the country. And I'm very, very happy. I look at. At my friends and colleagues at abc. I've got nothing bad to say about them. They do great work still. I had a great career there. But it feels to me almost like they're what, birds in a cage or something?

[Tim Miller]

Like, feels depressing. It must be how I feel when I get a PR email from somebody who's working at a PR firm and I'm like, there but for the grace of God go I pitching this garbage. God love you. Everyone's got to make a living, you know, but that's it. It's nice to be independent and saying what you think. Let's stay in touch, man. Real patriotism is the substack. Everybody go check it out. And we'll be talking to you again soon. All right, great.

[Terry Moran]

Thanks, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

Everybody else, check out our livestream for election night tonight. Me, Sarah and JBL around 9:15. And we'll be back tomorrow for another edition of the podcast. See you all then. Peace.

[Musical Guest / Singer]

You Remind me of a Sunday back home in old Kentucky with church choirs just belting to the pines.

[Tim Miller]

And I.

[Musical Guest / Singer]

Love you like the mountains Loves the way the morning opens too soft and bright Greeting from the sun.

[Tim Miller]

So if.

[Musical Guest / Singer]

It make you stay I wouldn't act so angry all the time I wouldn't keep it all inside and I'd let you know how much I loved you every day so darling, will you stay right here and shake this frost off of my bone? Well, I used to ride a Mustang and I'd run that thing on high hose Till they raised the price of dreams so high I couldn't make.

[Tim Miller]

So.

[Musical Guest / Singer]

I let that car just sit there When I should have took you Driving windows down while the music played.

[Tim Miller]

So.

[Musical Guest / Singer]

If it make you stay I wouldn't have act so angry all the time I wouldn't keep it all inside and I let you know how much I loved you every day so darling, will you stay right here Shake this frost off of my bones Don Will you stay right here and shake this frost off of my bones?

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.