The Bulwark Podcast – November 4, 2025

Episode: Andy Beshear and Terry Moran: The Power of Normal People

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Tim Miller is joined by Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear and veteran journalist Terry Moran to discuss contemporary American politics, the challenges facing liberal democracy, and the importance of “normal people” in shaping political outcomes amid polarization. Beshear offers candid insights into Democratic strategy in red states, messaging on cultural and economic issues, and policy implementation—while Moran shares on-the-ground reflections from Chicago on immigration crackdowns and the late Dick Cheney’s legacy. The conversation spotlights authenticity, practical governance, and the evolving challenges of media and populism in the United States.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Remembering Dick Cheney – Complexity and Courage

Timestamps: 00:59–05:41, 48:16–53:55

• Main ideas: Tim Miller and Terry Moran reflect on Dick Cheney’s political legacy, focusing on both his controversial role in the Iraq war and his principled stands, particularly in support of his daughter Liz Cheney’s dissent against Donald Trump.
• Memorable quote:
  • “On this day, I’m going to remember Dick Cheney as a father, somebody who took on two politically toxic, seemingly hopeless and morally righteous causes on behalf of his daughters. And he did so clear and steely eyed, as he did on everything else.” — Tim Miller (04:19)
  • “First thing that I thought of when he died… to me, the most important question…is… are they true patriots? …He had terrible judgment, obviously, and a kind of strange paranoia… but he loved the country.” — Terry Moran (49:10)
• Moran recounts Cheney’s "old school" politics and trust in the press, noting the “grease in the gears” such relationships provided—even as he affirms Cheney led the country “in the wrong direction” on Iraq.

2. Andy Beshear: Governing as a Democrat in Red America

Timestamps: 05:42–46:06

Impact of Federal Government Shutdown & SNAP Funding

• Kentucky is losing critical SNAP support due to partial funding during the shutdown—affecting 600,000 Kentuckians, “particularly in a country that grows enough food for everyone.” (07:22)
• Beshear sued the administration for partial SNAP funding, securing a ruling for at least partial restoration.

Rural and Agricultural Policy Challenges

• Trump-era tariffs and bailouts “hammer” Kentucky farmers, pushing buyers to Brazil and Argentina, harming soybean and cattle markets.
  • “The Trump administration may be the worst presidential administration towards farmers that I’ve seen in my lifetime.” — Andy Beshear (09:12)
• Rural small businesses are laying off workers due to increased costs from trade policies.

Messaging to Rural and Red Communities

• Beshear emphasizes the lasting Democratic failure to invest in rural America, while Republicans demonized Democrats.
  • “One of the challenges in rural America is the national Democratic Party for decades didn’t invest.” (11:07)
• Trump owns his policies and their impacts—tariffs, chaos, “every which way.”
• Bottom line: Frame issues in real, emotional terms (addiction vs. substance use disorder, “seniors going hungry” vs. “food insecure”).

Navigating Culture Wars and Identity

• Beshear’s formula: focus 80% on bread-and-butter issues (jobs, health care, schools, safety) that affect everyone; be authentic and speak plainly.
  • “Democrats, we just need to spend more of our time on what are really nonpartisan issues that better people’s lives and show we are the party that gets results.” (16:59)
• Authenticity and "the why" matter: He ties his social policy stances (LGBTQ, abortion) to his faith and values.
  • “My faith… teaches me that all children are children of God. And I didn’t want people picking on those kids.” (19:29)
• Democrats need inclusivity, not litmus tests; “We should be the party of the American dream…not just the party of this issue or that issue.” (24:28)

On Effective Government and Regulation (Klein's "Abundance" critique)

• Acknowledge too much bureaucracy delays projects (rural broadband), undermining confidence in government.
  • “If we create so many hoops… and three years later there’s not one inch of fiber in the ground, we’ve got to recognize we’re doing something wrong.” (27:25)
• Beshear argues Democrats must be both pro-worker and pro-business, emphasizing results and efficiency, not party coding.

Democratic Strategy and the "Normal Person" Factor

• Focus should be on universally felt challenges (cost of living, jobs), with simple, unifying messaging—not micro-targeting or coalition-splitting.
  • “I think Democrats…were saying, well, we have to have 76% of this group and… …sending different messages to all of them. And to give the Trump campaign credit, they said, let's do 3% better with everyone.” (30:05)

Election Lessons and Party Leadership

• Democrats lose when perceived as distracted or focused on “other” issues; need visibility, speedy results, and reminders of tangible progress.
• Age and visibility: Beshear suggests Biden’s administration was hampered by the pandemic, lack of visibility domestically, and the age factor.
  • “Oh, I think age played a role. There’s no question that age played a role.” (37:54)

Looking Ahead: Democrats in Red States & Increasing Fight

• Beshear highlights candidates like Rob Sand (Iowa) and the “normal person” model as keys for future wins.
• On fighting the opposition:
  • “I get excited about debates and I take it right to my opponent.” (44:18)
• On Bourbon: Favors Michter’s, Eagle Rare, and Woodford Reserve Double Oak (46:06)

3. Terry Moran: Chicago's Immigration Crackdown and the Power of Normies

Timestamps: 48:16–62:06

On-the-Ground in Chicago: Normal People Resisting

• Moran observes an immigration crackdown sparking fear and resistance, not just among activists but “the normies” (everyday citizens—parents, community members, priests).
  • “When you get the normies to come out of their house and say, this is wrong, I need to do something about it... Chicago felt decisive to me.” (55:13)
• Catholic priests’ actions—attempting to bring communion to detention centers—resonate with calls to common decency and patriotism. Acts of witness challenge the cruelty of policy direction.

The Lived Impact

• Hispanic neighborhoods like Little Village resemble ghost towns due to ICE raids; local commerce plummets as even U.S. citizens avoid going out for fear of mistaken identity.
  • “It was absolutely deserted. It was like a ghost town... for a mile and a half or so, 26th street... chock a block with stores...the main street of Latino Chicago… 60% down.” (60:11)
• Moran: The crackdown is not solely about immigration but an assertion of force and expanding federal authority.

Split Reactions and American Pragmatism

• Some residents support the raids in principle (wanting border security), but are unsettled by the harshness and scale.
• Americans, he argues, value what works, are not ideological, and resist surrendering their conscience to leaders.

4. Trump, Media Strategy, and Interviewing Authoritarians

Timestamps: 62:35–69:50

• Trump White House is escalating immigration enforcement; unconcerned with backlash and bent on expanding force.
• Moran critiques media handling of Trump, especially the recent “soft” 60 Minutes interview:
  • “You have to pick a spot and communicate to the audience… and just for the principle of it, you have to stand up for what actually factually is true. And he hates that.” (66:36)
• Moran’s own style: Be respectful but persistent, choosing key facts to stand ground—“You can’t relitigate the 2020 election or whatever...But you have to stand up for what actually factually is true.” (66:36)

5. Reflections on Media, Public Roles, and Personal Changes

Timestamps: 69:50–71:57

• Moran describes post-ABC life as “like Dorothy, walking out of black and white into color”—hard, but liberating.
• Joy of independent journalism and freedom from corporate oversight, though it’s more challenging.

Notable Quotes

• On the Democratic Path in Red America:
  “It’s not a particular view on an issue as much as how much time that the people of America think we spend on any one issue.” — Andy Beshear (16:09)

• On Leadership and Authenticity:
  “People in Kentucky don’t call me governor, they call me Andy.” — Andy Beshear (22:06)

• On ICE Raids in Chicago:
  “It is not decided, but it is the decisive place… when you get the normies to come out of their house and say, this is wrong...” — Terry Moran (56:49)

• On Immigration Enforcement:
  “It’s what permits him to use force in a way that… isn’t necessary. You don’t need the military in these cities. And the manner in which they’re rounding people up… is to send a message that we have the force…” — Terry Moran (61:11)

• On Trump Media Strategy:
  “He wants to invent a reality where he is king of the world. And… you don’t have to be a jerk about it, but you have to stand up for [the truth]. Otherwise, what’s the point?” — Terry Moran (66:36)

Important Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------|---------------| | Dick Cheney’s legacy | 00:59–05:41 | | Andy Beshear interview begins | 05:42 | | SNAP/Food Security in Kentucky | 06:46–08:44 | | Trump-era Ag Policy, Rural Economy | 09:12–13:09 | | Democratic Messaging in Red States | 11:07–11:53 | | Framing vs. Policy on Social Issues | 16:09–18:34 | | Democrats’ “Why” and Faith | 19:29–23:35 | | On Inclusion vs. Litmus Tests | 24:28–26:10 | | Government Effectiveness/Regulation | 27:10–29:20 | | The “Normal Person” Lane | 30:05–31:22 | | Retrospective on Biden’s Performance | 34:26–37:54 | | Democratic Candidates in Red States | 39:49–42:25 | | Closing with Andy Beshear | 46:47 | | Terry Moran on Cheney & Chicago | 48:16–56:49 | | ICE Raids' Local Impact | 59:24–60:47 | | Trump Administration/Media Interviews | 62:06–69:50 | | Reflections on Media/Independence | 69:50–71:57 |

Summary Tone and Style

The episode maintains an accessible, candid tone—mixing policy analysis, first-person anecdotes, humor, and heartfelt reflections. Governor Beshear’s pragmatic centrism and plainspoken manner contrast with the charged politics of the day, while Terry Moran’s sharp reporting and nuanced storytelling bridge national issues and local realities. Tim Miller’s questioning is persistent but collegial, keeping the conversation rooted in both lived experience and higher political principle.