← The Bulwark Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
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B
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- [01:33]
C
After I taped both these interviews this morning, there was a release of video footage.
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D
New video footage from the ICE agent that shot and killed Renee Goode from his perspective.
- [01:45]
C
And I taped a extensive second by.
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D
Second breakdown of that which you can.
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C
Find over on the board takes feed.
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D
On your audio platform of Choice or on YouTube or Substack. To me, it more than confirms everything that we discuss on this show that I've discussed the last few days. And it shows somebody. That was the one piece of new information we learned is that Renee Goode had greeted him pleasantly and said, I'm not mad, like 20 seconds before he shoots her. It's an unbelievable piece of footage. Just one note in that video. It's all moving very fast. I called it body cam footage. We later learned it was from his cell phone, which he's carrying in his left hand while he's firing off three bullets with his right hand. Which needless to say is not SOP for an agent of the state. So go over there to check out more on that. Appreciate very much our guest today and all of you. We'll see you back here next week. Up next, Mayor Jacob Fry.
- [02:57]
C
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We have a double header for you today. In the second segment, it's our friend Ann Applebaum with an Autocracy update both.
- [03:09]
D
At home and abroad. Look forward to getting to that.
- [03:12]
C
But first, we wanted to add the.
- [03:14]
D
Perspective from somebody who can talk to us directly about what's happening on the ground in Minneapolis. And so I'm excited to welcome to the show the mayor of Minneapolis, Jacob Fry. Thanks for being with us.
- [03:25]
E
Thanks for having me.
- [03:27]
C
Happy to do it. Unfortunate the circumstances. I want to start just by talking.
- [03:32]
D
Narrowly about the shooting of Renee Goode and kind of what we know at this point.
- [03:38]
C
One of the things I think has been getting lost in the discussion a little bit, I'm curious your perspective on is what were the ICE agents doing.
- [03:45]
D
In the neighborhood at all? What was happening in that neighborhood in Minneapolis when the shooting occurred?
- [03:51]
E
I don't think the ICE agents know what the ICE agents are doing in general. They seem to be rolling around neighborhoods without a clear agenda other than to terrorize people. And this stems back from some of the original direction that was given when I believe they went into Minneapolis. And granted, some of this is speculation, but I think I'm right. I think that somebody from pretty high up told them, go to Minneapolis, find a bunch of Somalis to deport, and then they get here looking for the big meat packing plant or factory where they can find a bunch of undocumented Somalis. Only thing is, it doesn't exist because they're Americans. They're American citizens. And when they figured out that they couldn't do the thing legally or constitutionally that they wanted to do, they just started rolling around the city terrorizing people. And granted, it's winter, it's Minneapolis, and we got ice and snow, and they suck at driving in it. And so I don't know exactly what they were doing on this particular block at this particular time, but it clearly wasn't productive.
- [04:54]
D
And that's truly crazy.
- [04:55]
C
And they pitched us all as they're.
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D
Going after the worst of the worst, they're going after these drug dealers and these criminals.
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C
And is that even a neighborhood with a lot of immigrants? Going door to door of neighborhood with.
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D
Our taxpayer dollars with masked thugs doesn't seem to be an efficient use of. Of anybody's.
- [05:10]
E
Yeah, I don't know as much going door too, is what we've been seeing. But what is clear is they don't know exactly what they are doing. And by the way, you mentioned, you know, criminals and murderers and. And we're anti murderers here. We are anti crime. We have worked extensively with federal agencies to investigate murders, to drive down shootings. We've worked with the U.S. attorney's office, the DEA, the ATF, the FBI to successfully drive down crime on, for instance, the north side of Minneapolis. We've seen, like, the lowest level of shootings on record there. And so we're willing to work on that stuff. That's not what this is about, though, clearly. I mean, when you were bringing up border control to Minneapolis, and, you know, we're kind of close to the border of Canada, but we're not clear close to the border that they're normally patrolling.
- [06:08]
C
You know, something's off the incident itself.
- [06:11]
D
And obviously everybody's now watched at a million angles, and it's just horrifying. And, you know, you talked about one thing about being against murder or against death, didn't want Renee Goode to die. And it was totally unnecessary. It was unnecessary for them to be there. Like, regardless of whether you go through the frame by frame, I don't know how productive that is at this point, because there's no reason for them to have been there and there's no reason for her to be dead today and for a kid to be orphaned.
- [06:32]
E
Right.
- [06:33]
C
The one thing, though, that I saw.
- [06:34]
D
This morning, that was just grotesque and I kind of hate that we live in this world. You have to watch these videos now, but I'm sure you have access to all this is the video of then after they go up to her car when she's bleeding out. I don't know exactly what happened, but she's still moving. Right.
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C
And they go a long period of.
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D
Time where they don't allow a doctor that wants to help.
- [06:54]
C
What's your sense of what happened in the aftermath there?
- [06:57]
E
So I haven't seen all of these videos. I mean, the number of times that I've had to watch some of them again and again is traumatizing in and of itself. But here's the thing. When you are a law enforcement officer, the most basic thing that you're supposed to do is that when somebody is in pain and especially dying, you help. Even if you're the one that caused that pain from the beginning. Look, there are certainly situations around the country and in Minneapolis where an officer used justified force, had to hurt somebody, and then the next step is you immediately go and try to save their lives. You know, first of all, this wasn't justified, and second of all, they didn't help and they wouldn't let a doctor in. I mean, there are so many facts about this that make the whole thing completely appalling. And when you listen to Pam Bondi or Kristi Gnome, I mean, talk about this, you hear the words that are coming out of her mouth, you start to think she doesn't believe a single thing that she's saying. You can tell when somebody is talking and their lips are moving. You know, it's almost like the Teddy Ruxpin deal where, like, I don't think she believes the things that she's saying. And the whole thing is appalling. And now, you know, they're moving on to this investigation, and that seems illegitimate in of itself as well.
- [08:22]
D
So, speaking of that investigation, have you.
- [08:23]
C
Spoken to anyone from DHS or the White House leaders? Have any of them called you to try to work together on this?
- [08:32]
E
They have not called me, as far as I'm aware. You know, certainly we're using every single channel that we can possibly use to get ICE out of here. The first goal that we've got right now is safety. We are trying to keep people safe in this city. The second goal is we're trying to get ICE out of here because they've got somewhere in the range of 2,270 some odd agents and officers that have been deployed to the region that so drastically outnumbers the amount of police that we've got. And to say that it is concerning is completely underestimating the issue, and that's pretty crazy.
- [09:06]
C
An ICE official killed a citizen in.
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D
Minnesota and Kristi Noem hasn't called you.
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C
And just generally speaking, usually local political officials would work with federal officials.
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D
One of their agents did something like this.
- [09:22]
E
The city of Minneapolis has worked extensively with Democrat and Republican administrations. You know, 20 or so years ago, there was a 35W bridge that went down and George W. Bush came out, by the way. I don't think he was wildly popular or anything in Minneapolis.
- [09:41]
D
Definitely not by then.
- [09:42]
E
Yeah, but he came out, he helped, they gave money, they assisted with the recovery to make sure that it was done expediently. It was like the politics literally stopped at the water's edge where that bridge was going over the river. And. And people say, you know, we're going to work together. The shocking thing is that isn't happening here. And this is a case unlike the 35W bridge, where this was a Federal agency that did the killing.
- [10:12]
D
Yeah.
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E
By the way, you know, their stated reason for coming in here is safety. Thus far this year in Minneapolis, there have been two shootings. Two. One of them was ICE. So literally 50% of these gunshots that have been fired in Minneapolis have been ice. We are a safe city. Crime is down dramatically. They are driving it up.
- [10:42]
D
You mentioned the investigation. So is illegitimate. I want to talk about that a little bit more. On a play yesterday, the vice president talking about whether you all should be involved in the investigation of what happened.
- [10:53]
F
You have a federal law enforcement official engaging in federal law enforcement action. That's a federal issue. That guy is protected by absolute immunity. He was doing his job. The idea that Tim Walsh and a bunch of radicals in Minneapolis are going to go after and make this guy's life miserable because he was doing the job that he was asked to do is preposterous.
- [11:13]
D
He says that the cop that shot Renee Goode has absolute immunity and that allowing you guys to be involved in the investigation is preposterous. What do you think about that?
- [11:22]
E
I thought that I had a great deal of respect for Yale Law grads, and I hope I still do in some cases, but that is bizarre. You know, they don't have absolute immunity any more than city officials have absolute immunity. They have qualified immunity. That qualification necessitates that you're doing your job and doing what you're supposed to be doing under those circumstances. And I would hope that part of what these agents are supposed to do is not kill people and de escalate tense situations. This was the furthest thing from that, you know, and so, look, I'm not going to get into the frame by frame of what happened, but there's a few things that are clear to me. One, Renee was not well, did not run somebody over. Nobody got ran over here. Trump said they got run over. Listen to that. That's not true. Second, they're calling her a domestic terrorist. That is disgusting and not true. Third, they're saying he was operating exclusively. The ICE agent was operating exclusively in self defense and was like so, you know, badly inj. You know, I'm. I'm watching the guy on a video walk away with a hop in his step, like he's about to go run the 400 hurdles, you know, and then, you know, they say that he hurt his hip. That's. I think you heard his hip or something. I mean, I've seen bigger hip injuries, closing refrigerator doors that just. It's just not real. Look, I don't know every in and out of what this investigation could reveal if it were done transparently. What I do know is that they're not off to a very good start. The bca, which is the state agencies, the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension here, they have great expertise. Sadly, having done a lot of this work before, they have investigated police shootings. They have come to conclusions both of culpability and a lack thereof. There are more than a few activists here in Minneapolis that would say, never give it to the bca. They'll never find, you know, guilt on the side of the cop. They'll won't investigate it in that way. But here's the thing. They do do it legitimately. It's mainly that's like police officers. These are law enforcement experts. That's what we're asking for.
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C
And they're getting blocked out.
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E
They're getting blocked out. They're getting blocked out. They're. They are getting blocked out in a way that they're not getting access to the materials, not getting full access to the investigation itself. And that just makes it feel like a cover up. Even if it's not, that makes it feel like a cover up. Why not include them? The BCA has investigated other issues before. Where was a federal agent or a federal entity that was involved in some form of officer involved shooting?
- [14:08]
D
All right.
- [14:09]
C
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- [14:31]
D
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- [14:33]
C
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- [14:43]
D
This is it's not really about me.
- [14:45]
C
I don't want to pretend like, okay, I'm doing the best I can. I'd like to keep up with my daughter's French. She's learning French. But a useful thing I found for.
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D
The app as having a joint play.
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C
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D
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- [15:08]
C
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- [15:11]
D
We started messing around with the French a little bit.
- [15:12]
C
And it's fun, it's useful. So we're both learning at the same time.
- [15:16]
D
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C
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- [15:41]
D
So let's talk about what remedies you guys have either to get involved in the investigation and then going forward with ice. Just first on the investigation, can you sue? What can the city do, if anything at this point?
- [15:53]
E
Yeah, we're still going through that. I don't want to jump the gun.
- [15:56]
D
Okay.
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E
But yeah, I think we've got a number of opportunities that we can move forward with, hopefully in the very near future, including judicial legal action.
- [16:09]
C
I want to talk about what other.
- [16:10]
D
You know, kind of what local law enforcement can do and what you can do as political leaders in the city. Because this is something that I don't, you know, I don't exactly know what rules govern all this stuff. You talk about how at this point ICE is making the city less safe. And we've seen a ton of videos, not just the shooting of renegade good, but others of ICE agents bullying and menacing people who are following the, who.
- [16:32]
C
Are following the law, who are citizens. Can Minneapolis police offer any protection for citizens against excessive force if they witness this kind of thing?
- [16:40]
D
And obviously we're not trying to escalate a inter law enforcement battle here, but.
- [16:45]
C
Like, are there things that you guys can do to protect citizens from their infringement?
- [16:51]
E
Yeah, there are. And let me give some credit to our police officers because they are exhausted. They are working tirelessly. They're getting all kinds of calls. My, my, my friend, my family member is being kidnapped. There's a illegitimate use of force taking place. Not to mention they've just got the regular day to day stuff that happens when ICE isn't here that they need to deal with. And we have, you know, fewer office per capita than we need. And so they're doing a great job. But they're tired. They're being put in the middle of these horribly tense situations. And it's not like they go home to Missouri or Atlanta or Nebraska or some other state after this. They're here. Like, these are people that are charged with keeping people safe in Minneapolis, not just for the few weeks during this ICE occupation, but for the long haul. And so, yeah, it's. It's deeply concerning that they're getting put in the middle of it. And at times, they're even getting blamed for things that they didn't do. We have worked so hard to generate trust between officers and community members over these last several years since George Floyd was murdered here. And we've made huge strides. I mean, community members, some of the most intense activists that did not like cops very much, probably still don't, are saying that our officers are doing the right thing. But I think the question that you're getting to, which I'm not, I have not wholly answered yet, is like you're basically asking, can our cops arrest them?
- [18:24]
D
Yeah.
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E
From a legal perspective. Yes. From a practical perspective, to state the reality, yeah, it does get kind of hard when they drastically outnumber us and they have bigger guns than we. And here's the thing. We don't want to create warfare in the street. We want to keep our communities safe. We're trying our very best to do that. So nobody, our police officers, ICE agents, civilians, nobody can act illegally. Nobody can. And so we're trying to find the best way to prevent these ICE agents from acting illegally while not causing a firestorm on the street. Am I saying it won't happen? No, I'm not saying it won't happen. What I'm saying is, like, I am in charge of keeping the peace and directing our police officers, and I got to keep everybody safe. And so I can't commit to anything.
- [19:15]
C
It's crazy that you're even there.
- [19:16]
D
Right. I can't commit one way or another to deal with how our law enforcement officials should deal with rogue federal law enforcement.
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C
And it's like, these are the guys that are the don't tread on me guys, and they have federal agents coming into your city, menacing your citizens who aren't doing anything illegally. And you've got to have separation of powers discussions in the mayor's office. It's crazy.
- [19:42]
E
The bottom line is we are working on every strategy that is available to protect our residents. And where illegality is taking place, where people are being mistreated and hurt, our officers are going to be there to help the best they can to keep people safe. Now, what that action looks like obviously depends on the situation. Again, the goal that they're trying to get to is they gotta keep people safe. You know, anybody can get arrested. Anybody.
- [20:12]
C
The other pushback's coming from citizens.
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D
Obviously, you have a lot of citizens out there protesting overwhelmingly peaceful. But, you know, this is important. As you talk about keeping the peace down. We saw some unpeaceful protests after George Floyd that. Again, I want to go back to the vice president yesterday, and I want to play, just for you, a clip of the vice president talking about the protesters in your community that are pushing back and speaking out against ICE officials.
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F
This is classic terrorism. And we cannot say that when. When. When a far left fringe is inciting violence against our brave law enforcement officials, that we're no longer going to enforce the law that's rewarding the very people who are engaged in this garbage. The actual reward that they just got is a new assistant attorney general who is going to prosecute and investigate this stuff.
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E
I mean, I'm at a loss for words on what this guy says. I mean, look, as a mayor, I'm in the reality business ideal. In reality, as mayor, we have had to, at times, push back against extremism in our city coming from both sides. I myself have gotten death threats from both the far right and the far left. And we gotta call a spade a spade also when we're seeing completely unconstitutional activity take place. And that's what we're seeing under this administration. And so the notion, though, that, like, this is some. It is fringy to document. It is fringy to videotape what is happening. That's a fringy position to have. You know, I mean, our officers, unlike theirs, have body cameras. And by the way, they turn them on both for the sake of transparency in the general public. They also turn them on for themselves because they want to be safe.
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D
They also show their faces.
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E
They show their faces. They're not afraid of doing something horrible that they might be held accountable for because they aren't going to do that horrible thing. These federal agents are not held to the same standards that we are. And the whole thing is, by the way, kind of wildly ironic, right, because it's the Minneapolis police that in the past have been the ones that, you know, have had sort of a. A federal consent decree that has been pushed that we have all been pushing to carry out. Meanwhile, you've got the federal government that's doing this kind of garbage right now. And so, no, they're not holding themselves to the same standard at all.
- [22:41]
D
You're here for people in the community.
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C
And it's gotta be hard for people.
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D
To tamp down their rage when it's like they're being lectured to. And you have the vice president, like, tut, tutting and wagging his finger at you and saying, you've gotta calm down and behave while he's calling you terrorists.
- [22:56]
E
Yeah, I get it. And there's a greater good here. And I'm so proud, by the way, of so many people throughout our city that have united around, yes, getting justice. Yes, First Amendment speech, yes, peaceful protest. And also importantly, not taking the bait. We stand by our immigrant neighbors. We will say it till we're blue in the face. And one of the ways that we need to stand by them is not giving this federal administration an excuse to come in here with a greater occupying force. And so I have seen activists themselves de escalate a situation with other activists. I've seen people pull other people back, say, hey, don't do that. That's not who we are. We care about our immigrant community, and this could ultimately hurt them. And so, you know, I'm hopeful that that is going to continue right now. But, you know, thus far, in many instances, yeah, I'm proud that things have not escalated to that point.
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C
Have you seen other residual impacts in.
- [24:01]
D
The city like schools, businesses not wanting to open, you know, economic issues because of the fear, or.
- [24:08]
E
What I'll say is multiple truths here. First, the first truth is that this, like, apocalyptic hellscape that the far right is trying to paint on Minneapolis is just bullshit. It is just garbage. It's not true. You know what I mean? I. I walked out of, you know, my apartment this morning, and I bought a raspberry white chocolate scone. I mean, that is emblematic of. Not an apocalyptic hellscape. A freaking scone, you know, And I.
- [24:35]
D
Got a couple frosted scone. Yeah.
- [24:37]
E
Yes, delicious. It was warmed up in, like, a toaster. And I gave it to my daughter. We went to daycare. I dropped both my two daughters off at daycare, and we drove into work. You know, that is a truth. It is also a truth that when I go into some of these coffee shops, people oftentimes in the back of the house come out in tears and are terrified. And obviously they're. They want help. They need help. They're grateful for a city that is very much standing behind them, and they are worried for themselves, for their family members, by the way. Not because they're undocumented necessarily, but because they're Latino or because they're Somali.
- [25:23]
D
Right.
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E
And that fear is very real, and it's palpable. And so both of these things are true. Minneapolis, as I said, is very safe. I just said A minute ago, 50% of the shootings that have happened this year so far have been ice. In other words, ICE is awful. One and two, we don't have many shootings right now. That's a big city.
- [25:47]
D
Yeah.
- [25:48]
E
There's. There's many truths that are. That are there. And I want to make sure that everybody sees this. By the way. By the way, a message to musicians and large acts and performances and plays and comedians and everything else that are looking to come to Minneapolis. Come to Minneapolis like, we want you here. It is safe. Do not let Donald Trump screw the city over that he wants to see fail. Come here and perform and then speak out during that performance about what's going on.
- [26:19]
D
I appreciate that message. I saw. I guess it's nothing against anybody. I just saw John Mulaney cancels a thing this weekend, and it's like, I.
- [26:26]
E
Mean, look, I understand the sentiment, and it comes from a good place. You know what I mean? Everybody's trying to do the right thing here. And God bless. I've screwed up things that I've said a hundred times over. I'm sure I free up some stuff on this interview. You know, I am also certain that there's different perspectives out there in the city. From mine. My perspective is, we want you here. We gotta keep the city rolling. There's a lot of people, immigrants included, that will work at that show and need to work at that show to feed their families.
- [26:55]
C
All right, I want to let you.
- [26:56]
D
Get back to work, but I would be remiss if I didn't just ask you briefly about this fraud scandal that has been kind of consuming the news around Minnesota. I just want to put it this way.
- [27:05]
C
I take a backseat to no one.
- [27:06]
D
Maybe to you, about my anger and rage, like the racism targeting the Somali community from the Republicans. I get it. It's outrageous. It's vile. It's sick.
- [27:17]
C
I do get a little bit frustrated.
- [27:18]
D
Sometimes with Democrats because, like, I hear, like, a lot of anger targeted at that and, like, a little bit more muted anger targeted at the fraudsters that really screwed over a lot of people in your city.
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C
And so I just kind of wanted.
- [27:30]
D
To hear your reaction to that and how you think the fraud should be addressed and how politicians should be talking about it.
- [27:36]
E
In this case and in all cases, we should be telling the truth. With a full throated response. The fraud is real and is devastating. We have people in Minnesota and beyond that have stolen money, that should have gone to feed kids, that should have gone to housing stabilization, that should have gone to daycare. And for those that stole money, they should get charged, prosecuted, arrested and put in jail, period. We should be angry about that because that also is crazy and should not happen. We in Minnesota have a sense of helping people out. We have a sense of creating a social safety net. And when people take advantage of that social safety net, they should be held accountable. Period. That shouldn't be a wild position to have. Here's another truth. They should be held accountable as individuals. They should be held accountable as individuals. You should rise based on your own success and talent. You should fall based on your own flaws and massive screw ups and crimes. Whole communities, however, should not be held accountable. You do not hold the whole Somali community accountable for the actions of the fraudsters. You do not hold the whole Jewish community accountable when Bernie Madoff goes to jail. You know, you hold those people accountable every step of the way. That's how the system works in America. None of this should be a controversial position, you know, and so it should be full throated. And you know, we've just got to go in very clear. I'd like, I mean, and this has got to be a message again. This, my message to Republicans right now who are watching what is happening in Minneapolis with these ICE raids is, look, aren't you guys are supposed to be like the party that cares deeply about the Founding Fathers and the Constitution and these core values that hold us together as Americans? What is happening in Minneapolis perpetrated by ICE is the furthest thing from those constitutional values. The court and judicial decisions that have been built up over time, they're violating that. And so if you care about the endurance of our republic and you care about America, you got to step up right now. Similarly, as we as Democrats also got to call a spade a spade. Guys, crime's bad, fraud's bad, murder's bad, fraud takes place, there should be accountability for it. Let's not push it under the rug.
- [30:13]
D
Last thing, I just don't want to lose focus on the victim of this killing. Have you had a chance to talk to anyone from Renee Good's family or do you have anything to say about the victim and, and her life?
- [30:25]
E
We're all devastated. But the people that are feeling this particularly acutely right now is her family and her friends. My love is with them. We have reached out, made ourselves available I'm not the one that should be talking about the incredible person that she was. I will leave that to the people that know her and can do it authentically. Everything that I've heard about her is incredible. You know, this is such an amazing person. I will leave that to the people that can speak with, with honesty.
- [30:56]
C
Mayor Fry, appreciate it very much.
- [30:58]
D
Appreciate you taking the time. Our, our thoughts are with you. We're doing our best to send good vibes out there. If there's anything folks can do, you let us know.
- [31:05]
E
All right, thank you so much. Really with you guys.
- [31:07]
C
All right, thanks so much to Mayor Fry up next in Apple Mountain. All right, you know, in January, every sponsor provides, you know, this, provide us little guidelines about what they want us to talk about for these ads. I'm showing you a little bit behind the curtain. And in January, the sponsors are all talking about, you know, things like cleaning up our habits, you know, new resolutions, going back to the gym, dry January. The problem is I live in New Orleans and January 6th was the epiphany.
- [31:46]
D
Which marks the beginning of Mardi Gras season.
- [31:49]
C
So we're more like a dry march here.
- [31:51]
D
There's not dry really anytime, but we're like a dry march here.
- [31:54]
C
That said, whether you're in New Orleans or anywhere, one thing to turn to.
- [31:58]
D
In January is our friends at Seoul.
- [32:00]
C
Seoul makes feeling good simple. They make delicious hemp derived THC and CBD products with precise dosing, clean ingredients and formulations designed for predictable feel good effects. SOL is the alcohol alternative that puts you in control of your mood. Their best selling out of office gummies deliver a customizable calming buzz from a 1.5 milligram microdose for a gentle lift to a 15 milligram for a deeper, more elevated experience. That's what you do during the Ann Applebaum podcast. It's the easiest way to unwind without grogginess or next day regret of alcohol. Every product is made with wellness in mind. You can feel good about what you're putting in your body and how you feel after. Give yourself the gift of a healthier unwind. Right now, Soul is offering my audience 30% off your entire order. Go to getsoul.com and use the code thebullwerk. That's getsoul.com promo code the bulwark for 30% off. She's a staff writer at the Atlantic. Season three of her podcast Autocracy in America is out this morning. The first episode examines how the transformation of ice into a massed and heavily armed paramilitary is reshaping our democracy.
- [33:06]
D
It's Anne Applebaum, and that is a sad but timely topic to be releasing today. So I appreciate you here on the pod.
- [33:15]
G
Thanks for having me.
- [33:17]
C
A bunch about autocracy abroad I want.
- [33:20]
D
To get to with you today, but.
- [33:22]
C
I guess given the topic of the.
- [33:24]
D
Podcast, we should start with what we saw in Minneapolis this week. We just spoke to Mayor Fry about his update from the ground, but want to hear more from your perspective on the ICE killing in Minneapolis and how that integrates with what you're talking about.
- [33:39]
G
On the podcast, this episode of the podcast. The point of the podcast is to pull together some things that we've seen covered sporadically or unevenly or in different places, and to make an argument that these are the combination of the transformation of ice, changes in culture and education and health, deregulation of crypto. All these things are designed to unlevel the playing field for the midterms later this year. That's the bigger argument. This particular first episode, which was not planned to come out the day after a really horrific and shocking American tragedy. The theme of the episode was ICE and to a lesser extent the National Guard, which had been covered as a story about immigration. And my argument is that it's not just about immigration, it's about intimidation. It's about creating a paramilitary that feels itself to be above the law. People who wear masks, have only rudimentary training, drive unmarked cars and as we saw in Minneapolis, use guns freely and willingly as if they were fighting terrorists on the streets of America, when in fact what they're fighting is 37 year old women driving Hondas. But the point is that this was designed from the beginning as that so it was about immigrants, but it was also about having a force that was loyal to Donald Trump that could be used in political ways. We don't know all of the political ways that it will be used. Towards the end of the series, some people are speculating and actually some of the governor of Illinois said this. So it's not, it's not just some people. There's a fear that troops on the street or armed men on the street during the midterms could frighten people away from voting. So there are lots of ways in which this kind of force can be used. But what we just saw was it was more than just a power play. I mean, it was a shocking use of violence and then lies about the use of violence and then the immediate extension of impunity to the person who'd used violence. So already you can See the administration creating a force for violence that's somehow above the law and somehow protected by Donald Trump.
- [35:57]
D
That fear that Pritzker references in your podcast, that there's concerns people be afraid to vote. We do have anecdotal evidence that that not maybe at the ballot box, but in other ways of life that that's happening right now. I mean, I saw this in this community in New Orleans. I was hearing from people who said that they had employees that didn't want to show up to work, even if they were documented or had their green cards, because they didn' want to be intimidated or scared. You see that rhetoric after the murder in Minneapolis, which was folks on the right and folks in this government saying, Well, I think J.D. vance said yesterday, people should express their displeasure with our immigration policies at the ballot box if they want to. They shouldn't be showing up, being in the neighborhoods where these law enforcement activities are. And so they are intentionally trying to intimidate people to recede in various ways from the public square. I don't think it's a huge jump to things. Think that that might be part of the strategy around the elections either?
- [36:55]
G
No, no. I also heard a terrible story. I won't say who it was, but it was somebody who had moved to Washington and who had come from a city in California where you have to drive everywhere and whose kids were very excited to be able to walk to school. And this is a Hispanic family, completely American, US Citizen family. And as soon as they got to walk, the kids were excited for the first time. They can walk to school, they can ride their bikes. And their parents, because these are teenagers, became worried that they shouldn't walk to school by themselves because ICE might pick them up. And that, to me, was a horrific story. I mean, if you're afraid that your US Citizen children can't walk down the streets and can't go to school, then we're already living in a different reality. So you're right that this has already begun to happen in some communities. I mean, not everybody feels it, but it's very possible that everybody will. And actually, my podcast episode starts with a story of a guy called George Reddish, who's a US Citizen, was a veteran, and who was arrested by ICE and put in prison for a few days, missed his daughter's birthday, and was never given a reason or an explanation.
- [38:05]
D
The Reddit story is horrifying. I had a chance to talk to him, too. What a great guy.
- [38:09]
C
Somebody texted me the other day.
- [38:10]
D
I think it was yesterday. It's been also Been so bleak this week. It's like, do you have any hope? I don't know if he has felt this way in your podcast, but in the interview I did, we'll put a link in the show notes on YouTube with him. He was very kind of cheery at the end.
- [38:23]
C
What happened to him was horrible.
- [38:25]
D
But, you know, he's somebody that, like.
- [38:27]
C
Served in the military and has a.
- [38:28]
D
Kid and is a young guy. And he was. And he was, you know, I basically said to him, I was like, you've got to hate America at this point, given how you were treated.
- [38:37]
C
And he was the opposite. And I don't know, there's something about.
- [38:40]
D
That, about, like, the human ability to stand up to these horrors that's darkly optimistic. I guess it's like optimism through dark, light through darkness. But there's something to be said.
- [38:50]
G
Well, there are a lot of people fighting back. I mean, there were people protesting in Minneapolis, and there are people who are documenting ice and there are, you know, I'm really impressed with the Catholic Church in lots of places. I mean, you can feel these communities moving and doing things. And, you know, I'm, I'm. I'm impressed with Americans who do all that. And so. And they're, you know, they're exactly. They're the source of, you know, they're. They're the future of the country.
- [39:13]
C
America is involved in all this.
- [39:14]
D
We kind of want to do around the world of the various autocracies and our roles. I want to start with Venezuela. You wrote about this for the Atlantic this week and how Trump is trying to put in place a new global system. Before we get into the Don Roe Doctrine side of this, I'm just curious what your sense is of the state of play in Venezuela. Trump said yesterday, last night in an interview that he will be meeting with Machado next week, the opposition leader in Venezuela, and said it'd be a great honor to accept the Nobel Peace Prize from her. At some level, it feels pretty. Feels like a little bit too late to be siding with the opposition, but maybe not. I don't know. What's your sense of what the state of play is in Venezuela?
- [39:57]
G
I am in touch with people. I'm in touch with somebody, a couple of people in Caracas and others, to be clear, the Venezuelans I know who were delighted that Maduro was gone and were really happy. And the Trump press conference on that same day in which he kind of dissed Machado and he said, she's a very nice lady, but nobody respects her, was truly horrifying. To them. We were just talking about people who inspire you. The Venezuelan opposition, particularly over the last two or three years, fighting against enormous odds, carried out this incredible election campaign. Machado herself wasn't running because she was forbidden from running, but Edmondo Gonzalez, who was a former Venezuelan diplomat, did run. They got people all over the country involved, and not only that, they. They got people involved in monitoring and counting the votes. So they were able to prove that they'd won. They won like, they got two thirds of the vote. So this is a very deep, very big, very grassroots opposition. This is not a bunch of elites or a bunch of rich people or a bunch of outsiders. Machado represents a very large part of the country, and she has enormous respect. She is widely admired among all kinds of people, all kinds of demographics in all, all parts of the country. And so the people were horrified by that. The people are also horrified by. The initial impression is that Trump intends for the country to be run by the Maduro regime, which is still in place, and it's its own paramilitaries and its own police force are still in place, and somehow intends to monitor it from the outside through blockades, somehow controlling oil revenue. And it's very unclear how that's going to happen and how that's going to work and what it's going to mean for ordinary Venezuelans. And, you know, the people I talk to go kind of way up and down. You know, like, one day maybe it's going to be all right. You know, maybe this is a transition phase, and eventually we'll have our own legitimate leaders, and. And then they seem more, you know, a lot more worried. Very hard for me to tell you what direction this is going. It's not unprecedented for the US to be involved in some kind of leadership chain in Latin America, but the way this is happening and the language that Trump is using is totally unprecedented. I mean, he's talking about Venezuela very much as we're. We're taking their oil. You know, the point of occupying Venezuela or blockading Venezuela is to take their natural resources for the purposes of Americans. So he sounds not just like a imperialist. I mean, he sounds like a kind of. I mean, you'd have to go back, you know, before the British Empire. I mean, it's a kind of rapacious, extortionate. We're just there for the oil kind.
- [42:38]
D
Of enterprise going back to, like, the Silk Road or something.
- [42:41]
G
Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's not even the Victorian British Empire Empire, which did have an ideology and Manifest destiny, you know, but it's a. It's very, very brutal. And, you know, Venezuelans want change. And one person said to me, you know, I don't care who runs the oil industry. I just want, you know, the country to move again. So they, they keep looking for the bright side. But he almost never talks about Venezuelans. You know, he doesn't talk about them at all and what they would want. And he's never used the word democracy when he talks about them. I guess it's important for him to meet Machado. And I, I don't envy her having to go through that. And I am afraid there will be some horrific scene where she hands him the. I think it's a gold medal you get when you win the Nobel Prize. I mean, there might be some ugly thing that happens, which I don't want to watch.
- [43:28]
C
My colleague Sam Stein posited that, like, even for Trump, that feels a little undignified to take somebody's medal. But I have to dissent with him on that.
- [43:38]
D
I don't know that there's anything that's too undignified for him.
- [43:41]
C
I think he would take it.
- [43:43]
D
We'll see. It's a side story.
- [43:44]
C
One thing that struck me, reading your.
- [43:45]
D
Piece about this that I think is a little bit under discussed.
- [43:48]
C
Right.
- [43:48]
D
Because all of this is hypothesizing and it's figuring out what the potential outcomes are. There are a bunch of different ways that things could shake out when there's a change in leadership like this. I was going to say it's not really regime change.
- [44:04]
C
One thing that I don't hear a ton of talking about is will there be pushback from within Venezuela? That's something you mentioned, right. And especially with the way Trump talks about this. You know, whether it's FARC or some other group, there's honor and dignity and pride within Venezuela. And it's like, these guys aren't going.
- [44:21]
D
To come steal our oil.
- [44:22]
C
And that is a, I think a.
- [44:24]
D
Risk that, you know, is that we haven't seen so far, though some Venezuelans died in our, in our removal of Maduro.
- [44:33]
C
But it does seem like a risk that these guys are totally, basically oblivious to or not talking about or just wishcasting over.
- [44:43]
G
So there are armed groups inside Venezuela. There are some terrorist groups, I mean, mostly on the border, coming from Colombia and elsewhere. But there are also armed paramilitaries inside Venezuela who may or may not be happy with the new system, whatever that system turns out to be. There are Russian and Chinese and Iranian links in Venezuela. I mean, I know that the, the Trump administration said they would have to leave, but that's not how it works. I mean, they don't necessarily leave. And, you know, there's plenty of opportunity for people who don't like the new system, whatever that turns out to be, to push back against it. And that's, you know, stepping back. I mean, that's the broader danger of a policy that doesn't take into consideration the, the desires and of the people on the ground. If America is just a brutal regional bully and nothing else, then it will find it harder and harder to have allies. And people will, you know, they will organize against the US or they will seek to thwart the US or they may eventually use violence. I mean, I, I don't want to be too specific in predictions because it's just too early to say what this is going to be like. But if you, if you look at the history of the world, that's, that's what happens. I mean, an action has a reaction. You know, the US of the second half of the 20th century and the first, I don't know, 15 years of the 21st century, was a country that did have an enormous amount of power, sometimes abused it, but very often sought to share it with others or to incorporate others or to build alliances and work together with partners, either with partner governments or partner organizations in other countries in order to achieve things. And this is an administration that doesn't seem interested in doing that at all with anybody. I mean, not the Venezuelan opposition, not anyone. And so that means that some people will begin to say, well, is this in my interest? Maybe not. And that will create a backlash eventually.
- [46:40]
D
Part of me kind of hates even assessing this at a geopolitical, theoretical level and taking them at the word that.
- [46:49]
C
There'S some doctrine here.
- [46:50]
D
Because to me, Trump is an emotional actor, and he's like a toddler. And there's a series of events that made him feel like this was the right thing to do to dep Maduro. But, you know, I don't know that he has some consistent viewpoint that he will employ throughout the region.
- [47:05]
C
But just for the sake of the.
- [47:07]
D
Discussion, if they are serious about the spheres of influence thing, right, where they want to take control of the region, this is what you kind of get to in the Atlantic.
- [47:18]
C
There are a lot of potential risks.
- [47:20]
D
And ways that that could go bad.
- [47:22]
C
And like this, this idea that this.
- [47:24]
D
Is a risk board and we can just divide the world up between China and Russia and the US Is silly.
- [47:30]
C
And other countries in the World have agency. And on top of that, it's kind.
- [47:34]
D
Of like, where does Europe fit into all of that? It's so strange.
- [47:37]
C
And as one of Trump's allies tweeted.
- [47:39]
D
This earlier this week, someone is getting.
- [47:42]
C
Greenland one way or the other. It's going to be us or Russia or China.
- [47:45]
D
I know, my choice.
- [47:46]
C
I'm like, well, wait, Europe already has Greenland. Why would it be Russia? Russia is a broken country. Russia doesn't have the resources that Europe has. Russia's tried to take over one European country and. And has utterly botched it.
- [48:01]
G
Yeah.
- [48:01]
C
And a million people, their whole worldview.
- [48:03]
D
Seems broken on this.
- [48:04]
G
It's deeply bizarre. I mean, first of all, you're right. So I don't think Trump himself has a strategy or has ever had a strategy. I think he has. He's somebody who wants to win. Whatever is the situation, whether it's a conversation with a journalist or with the president of Ukraine or with Maduro, you know, it's just all about winning and dominance and victory in that minute.
- [48:26]
C
Right. Like, yeah, he's very adaptable in that minute.
- [48:28]
G
Yeah, exactly. And the next minute, who cares? You know, and he's fine to talk to Mandani, you know, and he's fine to do something else. He has no strategic view at all. You know, the Dunro Doctrine, I think, is something somebody else made up. By the way, the Monroe Doctrine was about keeping European imperialist powers out of the Western Hemisphere. You know, the original idea wasn't the version that Trump has come up with, but there are people around him who have strategies, and you hear them from time to time, or you see echoes of what they think. I mean, one version was in the National Security Strategy that was published before Christmas, which had the rudiments of this in it. You know, the US Needs to dominate the Western Hemisphere, needs to take over all the important economic assets. And what happens to Europe and what happens in Asia is of less interest to us. And we don't. We're not really interested in talking about Russia and China as. As rivals anymore. That was their. That was the fundamental basis of that, of that document. First of all, the origins of this idea that there should be three spheres in the world is Russian. This was a kind of Russian geopolitical.
- [49:34]
D
Since they're the weakest of the spheres.
- [49:36]
G
That'S not surprising, partly because it's the justification for the Russian invasion of Ukraine and Georgia and so on, and also because it makes Russia, which is poorer by 10 times the new European Union, makes it look more important if it's sharing the world with American China. Actually, Russia is a client state of China. You know, not by any means. It's equal. It's crazy because that's not how it works. Russia isn't dominating Europe. And actually, you know, there are other players in Asia too. China, Japan, but also South Korea. There are many countries that don't want to become Chinese colonies. And so it's a misunderstanding of how the world is going to work. And it's also a recipe for war. I mean, the, you know, if the US's job, if the US sees itself as its primary goal is to extort resources from Latin America, then there will be struggle and conflict in Latin America as people object to it. As we just discussed, you know, if Russia decides that its job is to dominate Europe, then there will be a war in Europe. You know, if China wants to dominate Japan, there'll be a war with Japan. So this way of seeing the world, that it's about big powers having dominance, is an absolute recipe for violence and warfare. The whole point of the post war world, of the UN Charter, of the myriad institutions that we're now dropping out of, was to have a different way of running the world. You know, instead of big countries saying might makes right, give small countries agency, organize networks, organize alliances, even in areas like shipping law or, you know, airplane traffic, have ways of discussing things between nations where everybody gets a say and we get some kind of solution that's good for everyone. I mean, that was the basis of international politics for the last 70 years. And they seem very convinced that they can just discard all of it and that it will somehow be good for the us. I mean, US losing European markets, you know, US being cut off from Japan, U.S. isolated in the Western Hemisphere, us losing. I mean, you can see how much the U.S. stands to lose. Just when you start to think about.
- [51:42]
C
It, I'm wondering whether kind of the view from Europe is changing, evolving at all over the past couple weeks, given what we've seen. And obviously you're in London now, your.
- [51:52]
D
Husband'S a Polish minister, so you're much deeper in that world than I am.
- [51:57]
C
It's one thing for it to be.
- [51:59]
D
Bluster and talk with Donald Trump and then the talk going. And now with what's happened with Maduro.
- [52:04]
C
There'S they've refocused on Greenland again. He's trash talking Colombia and Mexico. I'm just wondering if there's been kind.
- [52:12]
D
Of any updated POV from folks in Europe that makes things seem a little more alarming or whether this is what they've just been dealing with now for 10 years.
- [52:22]
G
It's funny, I talked to a Danish journalist just before talking to you, who was asking me about where is this dramatic change coming from? And so on. And I said to him, have you not been paying attention? Trump has been talking like this since 2015. You know, the Russians invaded Ukraine, 2022, it's now 2026. All these trends were visible in the past, but it was actually the combination of Maduro and Greenland that has led to a new level of anxiety. I mean, actually, the French president said a couple of days ago, America might not be our ally anymore. You've heard the German Chancellor say something similar in the last, you know, in, in recent days and weeks. He said it more than once, actually. And you. I am watching people. The word I would use is hedge. So people are beginning to look for hedges, rapidly looking for replacements for US Systems, you know, rapidly talking about it doesn't happen much in public, but there are a lot of behind the scenes conversations about what do we do in the case of a US Invasion of Greenland, who responds and how, what does that mean for Ukraine going forward and so on.
- [53:26]
C
So where would those conversations even happen?
- [53:27]
D
I mean, they can't happen inside NATO.
- [53:29]
C
Really, since we're not part of it.
- [53:31]
D
So like eu, just EU security services.
- [53:34]
G
EU security services inside governments. You know, people, people are beginning to make ask what, what alternative plans there are. There's another weird thing which is that while all this is happening, the US Military and, and NATO country militaries remain as integrated as they ever were. And US Intelligence works closely with European intelligence in many areas. I don't know that there are military exercises going on right now, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were or if there were some that were scheduled for next month and those will probably happen. So all of the stuff that allies do together on a sort of one level down from the politics is still happening. And there are these deep relationships, as I said, between military, between strategy, between intelligence institutions and people all across what we call would call the transatlantic alliance. And all that still happens. And so I think that's part of what gives people this feeling of surreality. I mean, you know, we still like Americans, we work with them, you know, we, we trade with them. I mean, the Danes have all these huge companies that sell weight loss drugs and shipping windmills, I think, and they have enormous trade relationships and lots of tourists. And so it, you know, simultaneously while they hear this, this very aggressive stuff coming from the President and some of the people around him, they don't see it in reality. And that's, that's also part of the Kafkaesque atmosphere of the moment.
- [55:09]
A
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- [56:44]
C
We've kind of this cyclical loop that.
- [56:47]
D
We'Re in really with Trump's behavior with Ukraine, where he kind of sounds Russia friendly for a minute, then he hopes he gets a peace deal and then Putin makes him mad for a second and then Zelensky comes to visit. Well, except for that one time. The rest of the time he starts to be persuaded slightly and it feels like we're going to be supportive of Ukraine again. And then the cycle starts over again where Trump starts sounding like he's more mad at Zelensky and he starts giving Russian talking points.
- [57:15]
C
Did the events of the last week change the calculus there at all?
- [57:19]
D
Or is this are we just still in this kind of unending loop of Trump playing footsie with with Russia and then and then backing off.
- [57:26]
G
So the one thing that has happened this week that is important for Ukraine is that a piece of the negotiation is about so called security guarantees. I'm a little wary about all this anyway, kind of dubious, but part of the negotiation is that if the war were to end and Ukraine would need some kind of conviction that it wasn't going to start again the next day. So if people were to come back and if they're to rebuild the country and people are going to invest, then there has to be some security after the war. And so towards that end, actually, the British and the French in the last few days have said they would lend troops to Ukraine. And I don't know the full details, the United States has made some noises about security guarantees by threatening Denmark. And by implying in some of his conversation that he's not sure which is more important, owning Greenland or being in NATO, he suddenly makes this question of security guarantees seem absurd. I mean, of course the United States can't be relied upon if it's about to attack Denmark. It undermines the project, even the project of Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner to create some reliable system. I mean, even that is being undermined by the things that Trump says is the main problem with the negotiations, as far as I can see, is that the Russians have never said that they want to end the war.
- [58:49]
D
Right?
- [58:50]
G
Not once. Putin has never said the war is over. He has never said he wants a ceasefire. He's never talked about ending the war in public. And that makes me think that he doesn't want to end the war. And so you have the specter of the US and Europe and Ukraine coming to some kind of agreement that they're going to present to Putin and Putin will turn down, and maybe there's something that will happen that will change that. I mean, eventually it will change, because I don't think Putin can fight this war forever. He's losing a thousand people every day. Every day. You know, think about that. Think about The United States lost 60 to 65, 000 people during Vietnam. And this was a national trauma that went on for decades. We made movies about it, we wrote songs about it. It. And it went on and on. And in Russia, they've lost a million people and they're losing the equivalent of Vietnam every two months.
- [59:40]
D
Wow.
- [59:41]
G
And so it cannot last indefinitely. And there is grumbling in the ranks that you can hear that bubbles up on telegram and there's clearly some discontent in the elite and people in Russia want the war to be over. I mean, of course they're scared to talk about it too much, but it, it is not sustainable indefinitely. And a, I am still convinced that a hard line, you know, clear statement from the transatlantic alliance and the rest of the democratic world would have ended this war already had the, had the election of Trump been followed by that it would be over. But Trump gave Putin the feeling that he could continue, you know, that there was, there was something to be gained. Yeah, but Ukrainians I talked to are kind of sanguine. They're like, okay, we're going to just keep fighting. And there was a huge missile attack that hit western Ukraine yesterday.
- [60:32]
D
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. The thing that was noteworthy about this, because Russia's been consistently attacking Ukraine every day, was that it was a hypersonic nuclear capable missile. So it wasn't like they didn't, it wasn't obviously a nuclear detonation, but that it was a nuclear capable missile.
- [60:49]
C
Why is that significant?
- [60:50]
D
Zelenskyy Kiev was warning that that is a grave threat, more so than, than some of these other attacks. I guess Putin had done, had used a missile such as this in 2024 and gave a rationale for it. Talk about how that might be a little bit different than what we've been seeing.
- [61:05]
G
It's a way of saying, next time I'll put warheads on it. I mean, that's how it's interpreted. The rationale he gave this time was that it was a response to the Ukrainians trying to bomb his residence, which is something that we know didn't happen. So he's created the fake excuse that allows him to make this response, which is pretty par for the course. I mean, now we've all got used to politicians lying and using their lies to justify violence. And it's not just in our country, it's in other countries. It's possible that the Maduro capture also unnerved Putin. I mean, as I've written, in a way it enables the Russians and the Chinese to do whatever they want. If we can do whatever they want, they can do it. They can too. But it's also true that Maduro was a Russian client. There were billions of dollars of Russian investment in Venezuela. The Russians sold a lot of weapons to Venezuela. They may be feeling, you know, particularly given what's going on in Iran and what happened in Syria a year ago, they may be feeling that, you know, it's true that the war in Ukraine is sucked up all of their assets and all of their weapons and all of their ability and they may be feeling, you know, Putin may be feeling some kind of insecurity. And maybe the, maybe the missile was an expression of that, too.
- [62:23]
H
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- [62:51]
B
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- [63:52]
C
I want to get to Iran. Just one more thing.
- [63:54]
D
Going back to Greenland for one second because you said something that struck me about how Europeans reaction to Trump implying that he wasn't sure what was more valuable being in NATO or Greenland. They've truly been spitting in the face of our European allies, both Trump and Vance and Vance in particular.
- [64:09]
C
And the the condescending way in which.
- [64:12]
D
Vance has been like tut tutting Denmark. You haven't been a good ally to us, young man.
- [64:18]
C
I'm going to send you to the principal's office. When the Danes have fought our wars.
- [64:24]
D
Danish soldiers have fought and died in.
- [64:26]
C
American led military actions, Afghanistan and other places. It's truly insulting. And Europeans have dignity too. And you can only lecture somebody and.
- [64:41]
D
Wag your finger at them when you're the bad actor for so long. I would think before they would have a negative reaction to that.
- [64:49]
G
No, that's Right. I mean, also the other bizarre thing, just to reinforce the point that this is not about anything real, the US used to have more military assets on Greenland. And actually at one point during the Cold War, we had nuclear weapons there. There's now one tiny base. I read recently it's 150 people. I don't have to check whether that's the case, but I know it's very small and the US has drawn down troops from there. So if this were, you know, and by the way, we have a security arrangement with Denmark that has allowed the US to have troops there, military equipment there for decades. So if the US thought Greenland was very important and thought it was an important military asset, there's nothing stopping the US from, you know, together with Denmark, you know, rebuilding, I don't know, new bases on the island. Nor is it true that Denmark has not protected Greenland. I mean, Denmark pays for Greenland. Denmark has invested in this longer story. The worst part about the jd, Vance, this kind of condescension is also just that it's based on lies.
- [65:51]
C
Right?
- [65:51]
G
You know, it's, it's, it, it creates a false reality. I mean, oh, the day the Danes aren't investing in Greenland. Well, actually the US could invest in Greenland and doesn't either. So it creates a fake world in which things that aren't true appear to be true.
- [66:08]
C
Nobody really likes to be lectured about anything, but it's particularly galling to be lectured when the person that is lecturing.
- [66:14]
D
You is making shit up and is actually the bad actor.
- [66:19]
C
Anyway, I want to move to Iran.
- [66:21]
D
Potentially.
- [66:21]
C
Some good news.
- [66:22]
D
We've been through this a lot in Iran, but I feel remiss having not covered it earlier this week. Massive protests now for about the last 10 days across, across the country. Biggest since 2022. Particularly they've run security services out of some cities, including along the Iraq border. Just wondering what you're kind of seeing there and hearing from folks who have expertise on Iran.
- [66:46]
G
So these are huge protests. I mean, you're right that it's not the first time and the Internet is now cut off there. And so there may be repression going on at a scale that we can't, we can't immediately see. I mean, there are a couple things that are new about these. I mean, one is that they come after the, the Israeli strikes on Iran some a few months back, which killed some leaders of the Revolutionary Guard and gave a lot of Iranians some hope that that would lead to political change. But of course it didn't. There is also interesting role being played by the son of the late Shah, whose name is being chanted by some of the protesters and who is. Is please don't take this as red. But some think that he may have some support inside the regime. There may be a part of the regime that wants him to come back and for there to be some kind of transition and for the. The Revolutionary Guard to stay in charge.
- [67:40]
D
What is his political valence?
- [67:42]
G
I mean, he was living in Northern Virginia and has studied in the US and is US Educated and has been an advocate for democracy and political change in Iran all of his life.
- [67:52]
D
Life.
- [67:53]
G
Who he's friends with now and what he's doing, I don't know. But his name is in the mix in a way that it wasn't before. And it seems to have some traction. And that's probably the most interesting thing that's happening. It's a theme to watch over the next few weeks.
- [68:09]
C
We'll keep watching that. It's one other element that is relevant.
- [68:12]
D
With Iran is kind of the interplay with Israel.
- [68:14]
C
Right.
- [68:14]
D
And I mean, you mentioned it like the Israel attacks on Iran preceded this. I mean, I think that if you follow Israeli news, certainly it doesn't seem like they're done. I think the Bibi told Donald Trump that it was a one and done, but I don't think that's how Israel sees it. I'm wondering whether you think these protests, how it interacts potentially with kind of outside security.
- [68:37]
G
I'm sure Iran is full of people saying this is inspired by Israel. I don't doubt that. Could Israel be there? I'm sure they are in some form. They obviously have some kind of assets inside Iran, but I don't think they're the primary cause. Iran has for many years been spending, you know, billions of dollars on Hezbollah, on Hamas, you know, on the Houthis. It spent billions of dollars on this nuclear program that we don't know how much of it was destroyed, but enough of it was destroyed that makes it look like it's pretty unviable. Meanwhile, people are short of food, they're short of medicine, they're short of in some places of water. You know, you see people on the streets in Iran right now who are genuinely desperate and angry at the regime for misspending their national wealth. And I think that's the most important source of anger and frustration. Could there be other foreign spies? No doubt, but I don't think that's the main thing that's happening.
- [69:36]
C
Yeah, the rial's lost more than 40%.
- [69:38]
D
Of its value since June, feeling soaring inflation.
- [69:41]
C
And that's as good a reason as.
- [69:43]
D
Any to protest against the oppressive regime.
- [69:46]
C
Okay, we'll continue to monitor that last thing. As you know, we have an informal.
- [69:51]
D
Ann Applebaum Book Club around here that people really get excited about. We've had the Captive Mind, the Oppermans, the director.
- [69:57]
C
You offered a poem last time. Thank the choice.
- [70:00]
D
Is that right?
- [70:02]
C
Did you read anything over the holidays?
- [70:03]
D
Do you have a chance or were you just eggnog doing eggnog and champagne?
- [70:09]
G
Have I already suggested what we can know? The Ian McEwan novel.
- [70:13]
C
I don't remember. Have we, Katie?
- [70:15]
D
I don't know.
- [70:16]
C
We'll add it. I didn't have that on my list.
- [70:18]
D
But it's possible that you did. It sounds familiar. Now that you mention it, I'm behind.
- [70:24]
C
I guess I'm not fully up to speed on the Ann Applebaum Book Club because I got a lot happening and occasionally I need a break from the Ann Applebaum suggested books that need to do, like gay coming of age novels, which is one I just finished. For example, anyone's Ghost. Most people are looking for that and so I'm a little behind. So it's possible.
- [70:42]
D
You did suggest that.
- [70:43]
C
What was it?
- [70:45]
G
It's called what We Can Know and it's by the really great British writer Ian McEwan. And what's interesting about it, it's not quite as on the nose related to these same subjects, although in some ways it is. It projects something not that far into the future, maybe 100 years into the future. And it's a group of historians looking back on our time and trying to understand it. And in the meantime, in the interim, there's been a climate change disaster and a nuclear war and you know, the world is. Looks very different and, and the first part of the novel you think it's about, it's, it's. It's a kind of lecture moral story about the impact of climate change and then actually it turns into a novel about what actually can we ever know about the past. Like, you know, when we study history, when we look at think about people's motives, what's the real story? We don't really know. And I sometimes I'm a historian when I'm not being a journalist and I found it really thought provoking. It's not hard to read.
- [71:44]
C
Okay, great.
- [71:44]
G
It has a science fictiony kind of air. Yeah, yeah.
- [71:47]
C
And I'm going to do better about.
- [71:48]
D
Keeping an official list now instead of going based on my memory when I.
- [71:52]
C
Was keeping up to speed with your suggestions and reading them myself.
- [71:55]
D
It was easy for me to remember, but now that I'm behind, I need to keep a written list so I can come back around to it.
- [72:00]
C
Ann Applebaum, thank you so much as always. The podcast Autocracy in America Season 3 is out today.
- [72:07]
D
Go check that out and I'm sure.
- [72:10]
C
We'Ll be talking to you in a couple months.
- [72:12]
G
Yeah. Thank you.
- [72:13]
C
Thanks so much to Mayor Fry for hopping on here on short notice.
- [72:16]
D
He's obviously so busy.
- [72:17]
C
And Applebaum, look, I just want to.
- [72:19]
D
Say the news is awful out there and I know it's tough for folks, but I really appreciated all the guests on this show this week. I thought it was a good first week of the year and what I'm trying to do here, which is be a community with you guys. We brought in an expert like Jonathan Blitzer who knows exactly what the hell he's talking about. We brought in folks who know what they're talking about and have strong opinions and can comment on the news and who maybe disagree with me a little bit, like Ryan Graham did. We brought in some of our favorites, you know, Bill Kristol and George Conway, and so I appreciate all of them. And Imran Ahmed, who's fighting the fight against this administration. And this week represents what I'm trying to do with the show. I appreciate you guys being here with us and appreciate it if you could tell your friends to come join us because it's going to be a rocky year. So have a wonderful weekend with you and your family. We'll see you back here on Monday with Bill Kristol. Peace.
- [73:28]
C
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by.
- [73:32]
I
Jason Brown at cvs. It matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night. And we want everyone to feel welcome and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill your craving for a tasty and, yeah, healthy snack. At cvs, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit us@cvs.com or just come by our store. We can't wait to meet you. Store hours vary by location.