Podcast Summary: The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Anne Applebaum and Jacob Frey: Using Lies to Justify Violence
Host: Tim Miller
Guests: Jacob Frey (Mayor of Minneapolis), Anne Applebaum (The Atlantic)
Date: January 9, 2026

Overview

This episode tackles the disturbing ICE shooting of Renee Goode in Minneapolis and the broader implications for democracy, civil rights, and the rule of law in America and abroad. The first half features an urgent on-the-ground perspective from Mayor Jacob Frey of Minneapolis regarding the ICE operation and its aftermath. The second half is a deep-dive with journalist Anne Applebaum, who situates these events in a global context of rising authoritarian tactics, exploring domestic threats and international crises from ICE’s militarization and voter intimidation to Venezuela, Ukraine, Greenland, and Iran.

The tone throughout is urgent, thorough, and reality-based—defiant in the defense of democracy, and sharply critical of leaders using misinformation and violence to advance their agendas.

Segment 1: Jacob Frey on the ICE Shooting and Federal Overreach

[02:56–31:06]

ICE Shooting of Renee Goode & Minneapolis Response

• Lack of Federal Coordination, Questionable Motives

  • ICE agents are described as aimlessly patrolling, reportedly tasked with deporting Somalis but lacking a real target.

    "I don't think the ICE agents know what the ICE agents are doing in general. They seem to be rolling around neighborhoods without a clear agenda other than to terrorize people." – Jacob Frey [03:50]

  • Their stated mission to catch criminals is called a pretext.

    "They pitched us all as they're going after the worst of the worst, they're going after these drug dealers and these criminals... that's not what this is about, though, clearly." – Jacob Frey [05:09]

• The Shooting and Its Horrific Aftermath

  • The incident itself, captured on video, was unnecessary and traumatizing.
    • New footage reveals Renee Goode greeted the ICE agent “pleasantly” seconds before being shot.
  • First responders (ICE agents) denied medical help to Goode as she was dying.

    "When you are a law enforcement officer, the most basic thing that you're supposed to do is that when somebody is in pain and especially dying, you help. Even if you're the one that caused that pain from the beginning." – Jacob Frey [06:56] "This wasn't justified, and second of all, they didn't help and they wouldn't let a doctor in." – Jacob Frey [07:19]

• Failure of Accountability and Governmental Cooperation

  • Federal officials, including DHS and the White House, have not contacted the mayor’s office.

  • Over 2,200 ICE agents are deployed in the region—vastly outnumbering local police.

    "The first goal that we've got right now is safety. The second goal is we're trying to get ICE out of here." – Jacob Frey [08:31]

  • The inquiry into the shooting is considered illegitimate because local authorities aren’t allowed full investigative access.

    "They're getting blocked out... not getting full access to the investigation itself. And that just makes it feel like a cover up. Even if it's not, that makes it feel like a cover up." – Jacob Frey [13:38]

  • Federal claim of “absolute immunity” for the ICE shooter is dismissed as “bizarre” and a misrepresentation of the law.

    "They don't have absolute immunity any more than city officials... They have qualified immunity." – Jacob Frey [11:22]

• Legal & Practical Limits for Local Police

  • Legally, Minneapolis police could act to arrest rogue ICE agents, but practically, it’s a delicate, dangerous situation given ICE's superior numbers and firepower.

    "From a legal perspective, yes. From a practical perspective... it does get kind of hard when they drastically outnumber us and they have bigger guns than we." – Jacob Frey [18:25]

  • Police are exhausted and caught in the middle; rebuilding trust since George Floyd’s murder is at risk.

Protests, Public Safety, and Federal Rhetoric

• Protest Response and Administration Hostility

  • The administration brands protesters as “terrorists,” which Frey forcefully rejects.

    "This is classic terrorism. And we cannot say that when. When. When a far left fringe is inciting violence against our brave law enforcement officials, that we're no longer going to enforce the law that's rewarding the very people who are engaged in this garbage." – VP, clip played [20:36] "I'm in the reality business as mayor, we have had to, at times, push back against extremism in our city coming from both sides." – Jacob Frey [21:00]

  • Frey is proud of protestors’ restraint:

    “I've seen activists themselves de-escalate a situation with other activists. I've seen people pull other people back, say, hey, don't do that. That's not who we are.” – Jacob Frey [22:56]

The Real State of Minneapolis

• Crime Is Down; Fears Are Up

  • Actual crime is down, and “apocalyptic” depictions by the right are “just garbage.”

    "This, like, apocalyptic hellscape that the far right is trying to paint on Minneapolis is just bullshit. It is just garbage. It's not true." – Jacob Frey [24:07]

  • But many residents, especially immigrants and people of color, are palpably afraid.

• Plea to Visiting Performers

  • Frey encourages artists and acts not to cancel events, to support the local economy, and stand with the community.

Addressing the Minnesota Fraud Scandal

• Fraud Must Be Prosecuted—But Not Used for Racist Stereotyping
  • Those who defrauded social programs must be prosecuted individually; communities should not be collectively blamed.

    “You do not hold the whole Somali community accountable for the actions of the fraudsters... You hold those people accountable every step of the way.” – Jacob Frey [27:36]

Closing on the Victim

• Renee Goode Remembered
  • Deep condolences; the city is reaching out to her family.

    "My love is with them. ...I will leave that to the people that know her and can do it authentically." – Jacob Frey [30:24]

Segment 2: Anne Applebaum – ICE, Authoritarianism, and the Global Stakes

[33:06–72:13]

The Transformation of ICE and Paramilitarization

• Beyond Immigration — ICE as Political Paramilitary

  • Applebaum argues that ICE’s transformation is not just about immigration but about building a loyal, unaccountable paramilitary force answerable to Trump and used for intimidation.

    "It's not just about immigration, it's about intimidation. It's about creating a paramilitary that feels itself to be above the law. ...use guns freely and willingly as if they were fighting terrorists on the streets of America, when in fact what they're fighting is 37-year-old women driving Hondas." – Anne Applebaum [33:39]

  • The Minneapolis killing is part of a larger story of creating a force for violence above the law, extended impunity, and lies to justify violence.

• Chilling Effects: Intimidation and Withdrawal from Public Life

  • Rhetoric and violence are leading immigrants and citizens (even those documented) to withdraw from public life out of fear, a precursor to voter suppression.

    “If you're afraid that your US citizen children can't walk down the streets and can't go to school, then we're already living in a different reality.” – Anne Applebaum [36:55]

  • Applebaum notes the social resilience of Americans and protestors fighting back in Minneapolis and beyond.

Global Autocracy: America’s Shifting Role and Rising Risks

Venezuela: A Case Study in U.S. Foreign Policy

• Trump Doctrine: Extraction and Domination

  • Trump’s handling of Venezuela is described as crude, imperial, and disrespectful of democracy.

    "He's talking about Venezuela very much as we're... taking their oil. ...he sounds like a kind of... rapacious, extortionate. We're just there for the oil." – Anne Applebaum [42:38]

  • The Venezuelan opposition is courageous and deserves respect, but the U.S. approach is dangerously unsophisticated and risks blowback.

  • Risks inside Venezuela of backlash and chaos—armed groups, foreign influence—are dismissed by U.S. policymakers at their peril.

    "If America is just a brutal regional bully ...then it will find it harder and harder to have allies... they may eventually use violence." – Anne Applebaum [44:42]

• The Myth of Spheres of Influence

  • The administration's adoption of a “risk board” worldview (“three spheres”—America, Russia, China) is fundamentally flawed and imported from Russian thinking.

    "It's a misunderstanding of how the world is going to work. And it's also a recipe for war." – Anne Applebaum [49:34]

Europe and NATO

• Growing Alienation and Strategic Hedging

  • Europe is increasingly alarmed by Trump’s treatment of allies (e.g., Denmark/Greenland), leading to "hedging" behaviors and contingency planning outside traditional alliances.

    "There's a lot of behind-the-scenes conversations about what do we do in the case of a US Invasion of Greenland, who responds and how." – Anne Applebaum [53:25]

  • Deep alliances remain at the military and intelligence level, creating a surreal disconnect from the politics at the top.

Ukraine and Russia

• Perpetual Uncertainty and War

  • The U.S. sows confusion with its oscillating stance on Ukraine.

  • Russia’s war isn’t sustainable; the scale of their losses mirrors—and dwarfs—Vietnam for Americans.

    "In Russia, they've lost a million people and they're losing the equivalent of Vietnam every two months." – Anne Applebaum [59:40]

  • Russia’s launch of a hypersonic nuclear-capable missile at Ukraine is interpreted as a dire threat and a way to escalate by manufacturing pretexts for violence.

Iran

• Mass Protests and Regime Instability

  • New wave of anti-government protests are notable for their scale, government repression, and the possible re-entry of the Shah’s son in the political conversation.

    "There are a couple things that are new... One is that they come after the, the Israeli strikes on Iran... There is also interesting role being played by the son of the late Shah, whose name is being chanted by some of the protesters." – Anne Applebaum [66:45]

  • The core cause of unrest is regime mismanagement and economic despair, not foreign interference.

Notable Quotes and Moments

• Jacob Frey on the ICE Operation:
  "When you are a law enforcement officer, the most basic thing that you're supposed to do is that when somebody is in pain and especially dying, you help. Even if you're the one that caused that pain from the beginning." [06:56]

• Jacob Frey on Federal Stonewalling:
  "They have not called me, as far as I'm aware. ...we're trying to get ICE out of here because they've got somewhere in the range of 2,270 some odd agents and officers that have been deployed to the region that so drastically outnumbers the amount of police that we've got." [08:31]

• Anne Applebaum on Paramilitary ICE:
  "It's about creating a paramilitary that feels itself to be above the law. People who wear masks, have only rudimentary training, drive unmarked cars and as we saw in Minneapolis, use guns freely and willingly as if they were fighting terrorists on the streets of America, when in fact what they're fighting is 37 year old women driving Hondas." [33:39]

• Anne Applebaum on U.S. Losing Allies:
  "If America is just a brutal regional bully and nothing else, then it will find it harder and harder to have allies." [44:42]

• Applebaum on Europe’s Vibe:
  "It's the combination of Maduro and Greenland that has led to a new level of anxiety. ...People are beginning to look for hedges, rapidly looking for replacements for US Systems..." [52:21]

Key Timestamps

• [02:56] — Mayor Jacob Frey segment begins
• [03:50] — Frey explains ICE’s presence in Minneapolis
• [05:09] — On ICE's supposed crime-fighting pretext
• [06:56] — Frey on duty of care and ICE's failure
• [08:31] — Federal agencies have not coordinated with Minneapolis
• [11:22] — Frey rejects "absolute immunity"
• [13:38] — Local agencies blocked from investigation
• [18:25] — Limits of local enforcement vs. ICE
• [22:56] — On community de-escalation and restraint
• [24:07] — Debunking right-wing "hellscape" narrative
• [27:36] — Frey calls for honest, individual accountability in fraud cases
• [30:24] — Frey on Renee Goode's family and legacy
• [33:06] — Anne Applebaum segment begins
• [33:39] — ICE as paramilitary force analysis
• [36:55] — Intimidation effect on ordinary, even citizen, families
• [42:38] — Applebaum on Trump’s imperial vision for Venezuela
• [49:34] — Critique of “spheres of influence” thinking and global risks
• [53:25] — European anxiety; shifting alliances
• [59:40] — Russian losses in Ukraine, scale compared to Vietnam
• [61:04] — Hypersonic missile strike significance
• [66:45] — Iran’s mass protests and potential regime shifts
• [70:13] — Book recommendation: What We Can Know by Ian McEwan

Book Recommendation

Anne Applebaum suggests:
What We Can Know by Ian McEwan – a speculative near-future novel raising questions about truth, history, and the interpretation of motives in an age of catastrophe. [70:13]

Takeaways

• The use of violence by law enforcement, justified by official lies and with little oversight, poses a dire threat to U.S. democracy and communities.
• The militarization of ICE, disregard for local authority, and deployment of overwhelming force in U.S. cities signal a creeping American autocracy.
• Internationally, U.S. foreign policy under Trump is dangerously transactional and imperial, with deep ramifications for global stability, alliances, and democratic norms.
• Domestic and international resistance—by communities, civil society, allied nations, and individuals—remains a source of hope amid these challenges.
• The importance of truth-telling, targeted accountability, and local solidarity remains central to any defense of democracy.

For those who couldn't listen: This episode delivers a bracing, wide-angle look at the authoritarian playbook—at home and abroad. It's a potent meditation on the stakes for democracy, the tactics of intimidation and misinformation, and the urgent need for vigilant, reality-based civic engagement.