The Bulwark Podcast: Anne Applebaum on "Outside the Rule of Law"

Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Anne Applebaum
Episode: Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Release Date: February 4, 2025
Description: Tim Miller engages Anne Applebaum, staff writer at The Atlantic and Pulitzer Prize winner, in a profound discussion about the erosion of the rule of law in the United States, drawing parallels with authoritarian regimes and examining the unprecedented influence of figures like Elon Musk on government operations.

Introduction

Tim Miller opens the episode by welcoming Anne Applebaum, an esteemed expert on autocracy and the author of notable works such as Autocracy Inc., Twilight of Democracy, and Gulag History. The conversation is set against the backdrop of rising concerns over authoritarian tendencies within the U.S. government.

Elon Musk's Unprecedented Influence on the U.S. Government

The discussion pivots to Elon Musk's significant and unusual involvement with federal government operations. Miller references a New York Times story highlighting Musk's expansive conflicts of interest and his ability to influence the federal workforce without holding a confirmed government position.

Anne Applebaum elaborates:

“He is operating in a completely lawless realm. He’s outside of the rule of law.” [03:05]

Applebaum underscores that Musk's actions lack historical precedent in the U.S., comparing his influence to that of Russian oligarchs who simultaneously own significant companies and hold governmental power. This dual role allows Musk to both shape policies affecting his businesses and gain access to sensitive government data.

The Extralegal Situation and Its Implications

Applebaum describes Musk’s activities as "extralegal," placing him beyond traditional legal constraints and control mechanisms. She draws parallels to authoritarian regimes where single individuals leverage power to override established laws.

Key Points:

• Musk's role as a government advisor without formal confirmation.
• His ability to download and demand data from government offices.
• The potential for Musk to "roll up the whole government" if unchecked [01:24].

Applebaum warns that such actions could lead the U.S. into a "realm of extralegality," reminiscent of historical authoritarian shifts, citing “Nazi Germany or dictatorships where single people took the law into their hands” [04:05].

Resisting Authoritarian Influence: Choices and Consequences

The conversation shifts to the response of government officials facing Musk's extralegal demands. Applebaum emphasizes the moral and professional dilemmas these officials encounter:

Anne Applebaum:

“People are going to have to face choices of a kind... whether to follow the laws that exist or conform to the new rules.” [08:01]

Applebaum compares the current situation to historical instances of conformity under oppressive regimes, highlighting the psychological and professional pressures that compel individuals to either comply, resist, or leave their positions.

Notable Quote:

“There is no legal basis for what Musk is doing. And the fact that the Trump administration has agreed to make it possible... means that we're already in a different phase of US Government.” [04:05]

Impact on U.S. Policy and Global Influence

Applebaum discusses the broader implications of undermining institutions like USAID, which has been pivotal in promoting democracy and providing humanitarian aid globally. She argues that dismantling such agencies weakens the U.S.'s soft power and its ability to counter authoritarian influences worldwide.

Key Insights:

• USAID's role in global health and democracy promotion.
• Musk's negative portrayal of USAID as "evil," thereby eroding trust [25:21].
• The potential loss of U.S. leadership in democratic alliances [28:24].

Anne Applebaum:

“We are destroying one of our most important assets... destroying the things we're known for.” [25:21]

European Concerns and Social Media Regulation

The episode delves into European anxieties over Musk's control of social media platforms like Twitter (now X) and his interference in democratic processes, such as elections. Applebaum highlights the challenges European nations face in regulating these platforms to maintain their own democratic integrity.

Key Points:

• Musk's promotion of far-right parties in Germany and interference in elections [36:14].
• The European Union's Digital Services Act aimed at increasing transparency and regulating algorithmic influence [39:45].
• Tensions between the EU's regulatory efforts and the Trump administration's resistance [42:11].

Anne Applebaum:

“U.S. social media companies are setting the rules for our national debate. And that’s unfair.” [36:14]

Trade Wars and Tariffs: A Reflection of Authoritarian Tactics

Miller and Applebaum discuss the recent U.S. tariffs on Canada and Mexico, interpreting them as gestures of economic brinkmanship reminiscent of authoritarian bargaining tactics.

Notable Exchange:

Tim Miller: “We are giving you 12 Mounties in exchange for the tariffs being taken away.” [44:38]
Anne Applebaum: “Justin Trudeau said, we're investing... But Trump said, oh, great, I'll lift the tariffs.” [44:32]

Applebaum notes the permanent damage such actions can inflict on international relationships and nationalistic sentiments.

Intelligence Sharing and Leadership Changes

The conversation touches on the appointment of Tulsi Gabbard as the new U.S. Attorney and concerns over her alignment with authoritarian figures like Assad and Putin. Applebaum expresses doubt about the integrity of intelligence sharing under such leadership.

Key Points:

• Potential erosion of trust within intelligence alliances like Five Eyes [48:09].
• The difficulty in sharing intelligence with a government led by anti-democratic leaders [47:43].

Anne Applebaum:

“Putting an Assad and Putin apologist in charge of intelligence isn't probably great.” [47:39]

Ukraine and U.S. Support Amid Authoritarian Pressure

Applebaum addresses Trump's proposal to exchange U.S. access to Ukrainian rare earth metals for additional aid, questioning the feasibility and ethical implications of such a deal.

Key Insights:

• The transactional nature of Ukraine's request for support [48:38].
• Ukrainian resilience and ongoing innovation in modern warfare despite political uncertainties [49:42].
• Applebaum emphasizes the unwavering Ukrainian commitment to resisting aggression [50:44].

Assessing the Authoritarian Threat: Current State and Future Outlook

In concluding the discussion, Applebaum reflects on the severity of the authoritarian threat in the U.S., asserting that the nation has already traversed significant ground toward extralegal governance.

Notable Quotes:

“We're already in the realm of extralegality.” [51:54]
“This is an illiberal assault, anti-democratic and anti-constitutional.” [51:59]

Applebaum warns that without intervention, the trend towards authoritarianism will persist, undermining democratic institutions and societal norms.

Conclusion

Tim Miller thanks Anne Applebaum for her insightful analysis, reiterating the urgency of addressing the erosion of the rule of law and resisting authoritarian influences within the U.S. government and beyond. The episode underscores the critical need for vigilance and proactive measures to uphold democratic values and institutional integrity.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Anne Applebaum [03:05]: “He is operating in a completely lawless realm. He’s outside of the rule of law.”
• Anne Applebaum [04:05]: “There is no legal basis for what Musk is doing...”
• Anne Applebaum [08:01]: “People are going to have to face choices of a kind...”
• Anne Applebaum [25:21]: “We are destroying one of our most important assets...”
• Anne Applebaum [36:14]: “U.S. social media companies are setting the rules for our national debate. And that’s unfair.”
• Anne Applebaum [51:54]: “We're already in the realm of extralegality.”
• Anne Applebaum [51:59]: “This is an illiberal assault, anti-democratic and anti-constitutional.”

This summary encapsulates the key discussions of the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who have not listened while highlighting critical insights and notable quotations from Anne Applebaum.